Thinkers 8th April 2014: Can tech reduce crime?

Extropia DaSilva: welcome to thinkers!
[2014/04/08 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: Where is Gwyn these days?
[2014/04/08 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: Is her computer challenged?
[2014/04/08 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: She has a schedule conflict I think?
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: She is a lazy who is a-bed as we speak.
[2014/04/08 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: aha
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: …topic.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: She gets more time on SL, but unfortunately not *this* time.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: Today’s topic is…
[2014/04/08 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: Today is the END of Windows XP. Moment of silence.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: oh ok.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I was there when it was born
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: …………
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: right
[2014/04/08 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: amen
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: Topic
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: To what extent is crime and engineering problem? How far can technological development go in reducing it?
[2014/04/08 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: hmmm splain
[2014/04/08 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: I would celebrate… but Windows is still around, in possibly even more crappy forms.
[2014/04/08 15:34] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Is crime a matter of engineering. Can technology solve the problem of crime
[2014/04/08 15:35] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And my view is yes.
[2014/04/08 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: All crime, everywhere?
[2014/04/08 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: Are we able to steal only because we have yet to figure out how to make it impossible to take something without permission? for example.
[2014/04/08 15:35] ArtCrash Exonar: Like putting everyone in closed security zones?
[2014/04/08 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: “stealing” is only one tiny sliver of the vast world of “crime”
[2014/04/08 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: OK, maybe a large-ish sliver.
[2014/04/08 15:36] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’ve argued that as we emerge into the age of VR everywhere, we will basically be entering a age of complete and total accountability for all teirs of society
[2014/04/08 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: I said how far can we go in reducing, though
[2014/04/08 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: In England they’ve put up cameras everywhere. How has that worked?
[2014/04/08 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: Accountability meaning that everyone knows our every move?
[2014/04/08 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: could you elaborate for us, Val?
[2014/04/08 15:36] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It will eliminate it entirely
[2014/04/08 15:36] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yes.
[2014/04/08 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: So no more sneaking around having sex anymore?
[2014/04/08 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: Total accountability is a horrifying prospect.
[2014/04/08 15:37] ArtCrash Exonar: I agree Zo
[2014/04/08 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: Lovely woman like you should not need to sneak, Art.
[2014/04/08 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: If you try to force everyone to obey all the laws we have, it’ll crush society.
[2014/04/08 15:37] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Essentually, we are about to create VR that will require every public area to be completely under observation be hundreds of sensors.
[2014/04/08 15:37] ArtCrash Exonar: Totalitarian = total accountability
[2014/04/08 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: But what if we did not need to, Zo? What if it were technologically impossible to rape, murder, harm or steal anyone’s property?
[2014/04/08 15:38] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The world will mapped to millimeter accuracy.
[2014/04/08 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: I wish I could find out who stole my garden tools last week…..
[2014/04/08 15:38] Second Life: Xa Marlin is offline.
[2014/04/08 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: Then we would be living in fairy tale land, wouldn’t we?
[2014/04/08 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: Who controls the data will have too much power. I’m going to revolt.
[2014/04/08 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: That scenario is too alien to anything in our past or foreseeable future to even work with.
[2014/04/08 15:38] Second Life: Xa Marlin is online.
[2014/04/08 15:39] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): You will record every detail of every event you participate in, and that record will be in essence a factual record that can be used in court
[2014/04/08 15:39] Extropia DaSilva: Would we? What if we had devices in our brains which could read our thoughts and, whenever a potential crime was about to take place, the tech stopped it?
[2014/04/08 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: Oh gawd, imagine the court cases!
[2014/04/08 15:39] ArtCrash Exonar: And then people will revolt and destroy the technology
[2014/04/08 15:39] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): current best cases of survilliance states. hmm… Russia? China, to some degrees, too. North Korea
[2014/04/08 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: We wouldn’t be able to move, Extie. Anything you do is a “potential crime”. :p
[2014/04/08 15:39] ArtCrash Exonar: London is the first case.
[2014/04/08 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: cameras everywhere
[2014/04/08 15:40] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *giggle* it’s hard to explain fully when you don’t understand the basic underlying differences.
[2014/04/08 15:40] Zobeid Zuma: Getting out of bed in the morning is a potential crime.
[2014/04/08 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: Is not.
[2014/04/08 15:40] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): This is NOT Big Brother.
[2014/04/08 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: CCTV
[2014/04/08 15:40] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s sousveillance.
[2014/04/08 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: I run at you with a baseball bat. The device detects the muscle movements and calculates a 99% probability I intend to swing it at your head. So it intervenes.
[2014/04/08 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: It seems to me that we have already shown that crime is mostly a function of poverty.
[2014/04/08 15:41] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if it comes to that, small flying drones with a spracan, to paint some cameras will sell very well in the darknets
[2014/04/08 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: Well, that’s something out of a horror movie.
[2014/04/08 15:41] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We will CHOOSE to monitor everything, because of the benefits we will gain from doing so
[2014/04/08 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: I am then sent off for correction and there is no question of my guilt because of Val’s sousveiilence.
[2014/04/08 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone will be in jail before too long.
[2014/04/08 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: Not if they do not commit crime.
[2014/04/08 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: There would be a revolution. Civil war. Riots in the streets.
[2014/04/08 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: I agree with Zo
[2014/04/08 15:42] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): bigger correctional camp facilities, then we currently know about?
[2014/04/08 15:42] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Depends on the situation. Because most laws are all about holding people accountable.
[2014/04/08 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: how about speeding. If you catch every speeder, then the roads won’t function…. heh
[2014/04/08 15:42] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We’re going to have to abandon some laws that exist merely to enforce some religious morality
[2014/04/08 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: Good luck with that
[2014/04/08 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: Robot cars. If they were intelligent enough to know who should be able to use them and who is not, there would be no grand theft Auto. No, not the game:)
[2014/04/08 15:43] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Its not a matter of luck.
[2014/04/08 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: You’d just have to hack them. :/
[2014/04/08 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m skeptical of giving ultimate power to anyone.
[2014/04/08 15:43] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Basically, the key concept is that no-one WILL have ultimate power.
[2014/04/08 15:43] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): exactly! culture … the game that will be no more, just as example …. the way how we live will take severious damage
[2014/04/08 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: Anyway, why steal a car when you can just get in one not currently in use and, after you have finished, it parks itself ready for its next user?
[2014/04/08 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: Communist cars?
[2014/04/08 15:44] ArtCrash Exonar: who buys the gas?
[2014/04/08 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: /me snerks! “gas!” :D
[2014/04/08 15:44] Second Life: Triona Fairlight is online.
[2014/04/08 15:44] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): There are so many interlocking factors it’s hard to cover them all simply.
[2014/04/08 15:44] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): electricity, mostly then
[2014/04/08 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: The car charges itself from the road, which is actually a big long solar energy collector.
[2014/04/08 15:44] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Gas is a short lived power source.
[2014/04/08 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: darn, I have to go AFK for a few
[2014/04/08 15:45] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Like Extie just pointed out’
[2014/04/08 15:45] Ari (arisia.vita): hb Zo
[2014/04/08 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: And there are butterflies and bunnies everywhere in the flower fields all around us!
[2014/04/08 15:45] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Nope.
[2014/04/08 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/04/08 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: nobody steal Zo’s avvie while she is away.
[2014/04/08 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: Power corrumpts, that is the lesson of history
[2014/04/08 15:45] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): roads tend to collect mud coverage, rubber remains and such. not the best surface for gathering solar energy
[2014/04/08 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: Power in the hands of a few, maybe. But what if this power were distributed among us all?
[2014/04/08 15:46] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We are heading into a crisis of very real danger, but it’s not a crisis that anyone is currently cognizant of .
[2014/04/08 15:46] ArtCrash Exonar: how is that possible?
[2014/04/08 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: because the technology is ubiquitous.
[2014/04/08 15:46] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “us” ? not exactly a western culture way of handling “power”
[2014/04/08 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: Someone has to make the rules
[2014/04/08 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: Not necessarily.
[2014/04/08 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: All of culture is rules
[2014/04/08 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: Rules can be an emergent propety.
[2014/04/08 15:47] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): the current power struture is not going to remain in it’s present form
[2014/04/08 15:47] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we’ve just before touched the historical connection between laws and religion
[2014/04/08 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: No society can survive without laws and law enforcement.
[2014/04/08 15:48] Extropia DaSilva: Ok..of all the crime types, which is most likely to be very much reduced if not eliminated by technological fixes?
[2014/04/08 15:48] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): maybe more atheism then now is a prerequisite for that change in society
[2014/04/08 15:48] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We will have laws and enforcement.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): but many things currently “illegal” will cease to be illegal so long as the person commiting them harms no-one but themselves.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: I say theft. It must be possible in principle to make stuff which knows who it belongs to and works only for its rightful owner. Why steal something which is useless?
[2014/04/08 15:49] ArtCrash Exonar: Religion will never go away. It creates mental security for many.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Why bother when material goods will lose the majority of value.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: another reason. Thanks Val.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Someone steals something, you print another
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): it breaks, you print another
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): you lose it, print another
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): what value will it have?
[2014/04/08 15:50] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a bugged item will knnow when it was stolen, so the religious police know how’s right arm will get chopped of
[2014/04/08 15:50] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m not convinced that technology will lead to material goods for all. A complete reinvention of economy will be necessary for that.
[2014/04/08 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: I agree.
[2014/04/08 15:50] Zobeid Zuma: /me is back!
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): That reinvention is ALREADY underway.
[2014/04/08 15:51] ArtCrash Exonar: where?
[2014/04/08 15:51] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): thats WHY we are having a financial crisis
[2014/04/08 15:51] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): 3D printers? I thought them was a plastic hoax
[2014/04/08 15:51] Zobeid Zuma: BTW Extie… There’s already a big fight shaping up over “smart guns” that supposedly will only work for the owner.
[2014/04/08 15:51] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): good for manufactoring more junk debris
[2014/04/08 15:51] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Material goods are already losing value because they are TOO ABUNDANT
[2014/04/08 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: If we introduced robots and matter compilers into the societies we have, it would only serve to widen the gap between the rich and the poor. We need a radical reinvention of values.
[2014/04/08 15:52] ArtCrash Exonar: So why then do the prices of material goods keep rising?
[2014/04/08 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Inflation?
[2014/04/08 15:52] Extropia DaSilva: Inflation.
[2014/04/08 15:52] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Artifically created inflation.
[2014/04/08 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Yes… Moderate inflation is part of a healthy economy.
[2014/04/08 15:52] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): deliberate shortages created in efforts to keep prices high.
[2014/04/08 15:52] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): rare earthes
[2014/04/08 15:52] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Nope
[2014/04/08 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: The banks create money out of nothing, that steals value from the money that already exists, so the money in your pocket as less spending power, so the price of goods goes up.
[2014/04/08 15:53] Zobeid Zuma: A bit of inflation helps our economy conform to the time-value of money.
[2014/04/08 15:53] ArtCrash Exonar: What happens when there are no jobs because the robots are doing them all?
[2014/04/08 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: Inflation and interest are a means of enslaving people without them necessarily realising they are enslaved.
[2014/04/08 15:53] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Japan relased a survey just a few years ago of near surface undersea resource deposits. we have enough easily retreiveable rare earths to feed 700 times current demand
[2014/04/08 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Then people make their living by other means than holding a job.
[2014/04/08 15:54] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a deflation economy is mostly dysfunctional. seen on the Bitcoin. nobody spended them, because of hopes about a gain in value over time
[2014/04/08 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Working for a living is about the worst way to get by.
[2014/04/08 15:55] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The VALUE of goods is shifting from the material component to the Digital. i.e the designs I.P. patents, etc
[2014/04/08 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: So the government will distribute credits to all?
[2014/04/08 15:55] Zobeid Zuma: No, what a silly idea!
[2014/04/08 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: Either we see inequality the likes of which have never been seen since the days of Pharoh, or we see people finally freed from economic slavery and able to work at what they find fulfilling. Those are the two possible outcomes of the inevitable full automation of jobs.
[2014/04/08 15:55] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Valkyrie, these people on their island believed they had almost infinite electricity (using nuclear power). Their forecasts are more so-so
[2014/04/08 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: Well where is the value in work if there is nothing to be made?
[2014/04/08 15:55] Zobeid Zuma: Why does everyone reach for the government as The Answer?
[2014/04/08 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m saying there is no economy without the population having some sort of income. If they have no jobs, where does the income come from?
[2014/04/08 15:56] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Look at SL.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: The value comes from the self-satisfaction of personal development, and the acknowledgement from one’s peers.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: Wow… Somebody slept through Economics 101 and thinks that labor is the only way to have some sort of income.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Second Life: Xa Marlin is offline.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s the ONLY example of a mostly functional abundance economy we curently have
[2014/04/08 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: So what is the other way/
[2014/04/08 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: ?
[2014/04/08 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: You can make money by selling economic resources: land, labor, capital and entrepreneurial ability.
[2014/04/08 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: I write essays and I feel achievement if people contact me and say I did a good job. That is payment enough for me, as is what I learn through researching it.
[2014/04/08 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: Robots just allow us to replace labor with capital.
[2014/04/08 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: Yes labor
[2014/04/08 15:57] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Everything here was made by someone. Not some corporation. Some ONE.
[2014/04/08 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: my point
[2014/04/08 15:57] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The environment that allows corporations to exist is dying.
[2014/04/08 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: So… Instead of an economy where most people are laborers, we just need to make most of them capitalists.
[2014/04/08 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: Val, SL proves that people WILL work, and work hard, even of there is no monetary reward on offer.
[2014/04/08 15:58] ArtCrash Exonar: That is so incredibly naive
[2014/04/08 15:58] Zobeid Zuma: Some people do actually make money in SL, Extie.
[2014/04/08 15:58] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ob, the Lindens :D
[2014/04/08 15:58] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): as the net opens up market to to individuals more and more, the competition will increase. Corps REQUIRE minimal competition
[2014/04/08 15:58] ArtCrash Exonar: The definition of Capital is that it is accumulated wealth. It can’t by definition belong to the distributed masses.
[2014/04/08 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: The vast majority of builders make stuff in Sl with no expectation of monetary recompensation. They do it because they love it.
[2014/04/08 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: That’s not the definition of capital.
[2014/04/08 15:59] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): They CANNOT survive in a high competition environment
[2014/04/08 15:59] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): do we have some (maybe Wikipedia) definition of capital?
[2014/04/08 15:59] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): to work on?
[2014/04/08 15:59] Extropia DaSilva: For every content creator who makes profit there are hundreds, maybe thousands who do not.
[2014/04/08 15:59] ArtCrash Exonar: I would tell you to read Marx, but you would probably say he is a communist.
[2014/04/08 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: I read Marx:)
[2014/04/08 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics)㯨ɧꠠⲧꠤⲧꠤⲧ
[2014/04/08 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: sort of
[2014/04/08 16:00] Second Life: Lucius Diller is offline.
[2014/04/08 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: And that was a funky link…
[2014/04/08 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: btw are we still on topic?
[2014/04/08 16:00] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): With high level design software able to enable low knowledge individuals to have access to high knowledge skills everyone will be able to compete if they chose
[2014/04/08 16:00] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): he is a communist, so the next argument would be how far that values his statements :D
[2014/04/08 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics)
[2014/04/08 16:00] ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, we think that ‘engineering’ will result in totalitarianism…. heh
[2014/04/08 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: A carpenter is a laborer. His hammer is capital.
[2014/04/08 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: we seem to be talking about jobs and capital. I thought the topic was crime’s elimination?
[2014/04/08 16:01] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Nope. I might temporarily appear to, but that is merely a phase that will be quickly passed
[2014/04/08 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I don’t even remember how we got onto this….
[2014/04/08 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: It was Art’s fault.
[2014/04/08 16:02] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s all related. Crime is usually committed for two reasons. Need or because they assume they will not get caught.
[2014/04/08 16:02] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there never ever was a country without a vivid criminal scene. Just where it is most rampant, varies. Sometimes it is the goverment itself, or the nobility, or just some corporations. goes top to bottom
[2014/04/08 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: We got into this because someone was talking about utopia caused by robots. Which I think is not possible.
[2014/04/08 16:02] Second Life: Naring’Nari (joey.aboma) is online.
[2014/04/08 16:03] Extropia DaSilva: What would be preferable? A world where technology is perfected to a point where many crimes are no longer possible? Or one with less powerful technologies and more ways to commit crime?
[2014/04/08 16:03] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): What need will there be for crime when almost all material needs will be easily met?
[2014/04/08 16:03] ArtCrash Exonar: How will the needs be met? Who is going to give you stuff?
[2014/04/08 16:03] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Who will be stupid enough to commit a crime KNOWING they will be held accountable?
[2014/04/08 16:03] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Val, of course! “Greed is good!”. When all needs are served, there still is the greed
[2014/04/08 16:03] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ask Gordon Gecko
[2014/04/08 16:03] Zobeid Zuma: Well, the scenario we were given where we have some sort of computer in our heads that paralyzes us if it decides we’re about to commit some sort of crime…. is a horror movie. Almost anything else would be preferable to that.
[2014/04/08 16:04] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): You’re confusing needs with desire.
[2014/04/08 16:04] ArtCrash Exonar: Oh there are plenty of crime free societies, they are ruled by fear. See Saudi Arabia.
[2014/04/08 16:04] Extropia DaSilva: There is an increasing amount of free stuff. Free encyclopedias, free videos, free blogs, free apps, free videogames…
[2014/04/08 16:04] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *sigh* argumentum ad asurdums
[2014/04/08 16:04] ArtCrash Exonar: No I’m not I’m asking where are your needs being met if you don’t have an income?
[2014/04/08 16:04] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): last days a banker got shot dead in front of a surveillance camer in Lichtenstein
[2014/04/08 16:05] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): at least, they did not shot the camera
[2014/04/08 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: If physical stuff were as cheap to reproduce as information, it too would be given away at rock bottom prices.
[2014/04/08 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: There is crime in Saudi Arabia. I heard about some women there who were seen driving cars! *shock!*
[2014/04/08 16:05] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Exactly Extie.
[2014/04/08 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: Zo, is your point that crime will always be re-defined?
[2014/04/08 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: so tomorrow there will be crime, just of a type we do not recognize today?
[2014/04/08 16:06] ArtCrash Exonar: You can leave your bicycle on the street and pick it up next morning unlocked because if someone get’s caught stealing it they have their hand chopped off.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: Just that a system to prevent all crime would give *absolute* power to whoever makes the laws.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’m not saying this is immediate, but 3d printers will enable everyone to become basically self sufficient to an enormous degree for day to day needs.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Extropia DaSilva: Nobody heard of the computer hacker in the 40s.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: That’s totalitarianism.
[2014/04/08 16:06] ArtCrash Exonar: Who will pay for the resources to feed the 3D printer?
[2014/04/08 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: We had cedar hackers in the 1940s. :)
[2014/04/08 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: Yes Val. Today’s 3D printers are equivilent to dot matrix printers. Imagine what the laser equivilent will be like.
[2014/04/08 16:07] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): You’re using todays versions of the machines to argue against future ability.
[2014/04/08 16:07] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Most objects could be made from atmospheric gases
[2014/04/08 16:07] ArtCrash Exonar: No I’m asking the question of how the future economy will work.
[2014/04/08 16:08] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): 3D print will change the way we create stuff, but it still is manufactoring. needs supplies. (design data, too). creates products. need customers to buy these
[2014/04/08 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: It’s not practical to make most things from air. :/
[2014/04/08 16:08] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not today. no
[2014/04/08 16:08] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): But in a decade?
[2014/04/08 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: You can already download a huge variety of designs for 3D printed objects for free. There is a pay it forward scheme in place whereby people go to groups and explain how to print a 3d printer, and they then take that knowledge to other groups. The Free revolution is underway!
[2014/04/08 16:08] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): air and an infinite amount of energy
[2014/04/08 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: Many things you make will require a lot of carbon, but air only contains traces of that, and it takes a lot of energy to extract. No technology is going ot change that.
[2014/04/08 16:08] ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone in the world, can’t be a designer or artist. So what will they do in this future economy?
[2014/04/08 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: Relax.
[2014/04/08 16:09] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’m a tech writer. I know what kind of research is going on. Most of those objections are based on old realities
[2014/04/08 16:09] ArtCrash Exonar: Who will support their relaxation?
[2014/04/08 16:09] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the reprap movement, indeed. so design data (intelectual property) might fall out of the calculation, costs == nothing
[2014/04/08 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: They will watch TV, read books, all supported by being partial owners in the resource-based economy.
[2014/04/08 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Land, labor, entrepreneurial ability.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: erg
[2014/04/08 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: Intellectual property is going to hell RIGHT NOW, as is my profession of freelance photographer.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The VALUE will be in the design, the file to make the item.;
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Land, capital, entrepreneurial ability.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Not labor anymore. :/
[2014/04/08 16:10] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yup, because the current system is in freefall.
[2014/04/08 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone CAN’t be a designer though. In fact only few can.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: Yes Art. Why pay top dollar for as freelance photographer when you can crowdsource any image you want and pay a pittence for it?
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Everybody doesn’t need to be a designer.
[2014/04/08 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: or nothing
[2014/04/08 16:11] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We’re in the collapse of one system, and the rise of another. it WILL get worse before it gets better
[2014/04/08 16:11] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Everyone can be a consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: You canno’t “crowdsource” a great photo. It takes a photographer to make that. :/
[2014/04/08 16:11] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the amount of digital images is really exploding. the picture’s quality … well, handheld cellphone lenses. Nothing to add there
[2014/04/08 16:11] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m asking the question which no one here wants to deal with, and that is how will the economy work in this land of plenty future?
[2014/04/08 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: I want to deal with it!
[2014/04/08 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: But you won’t respond to me. >.<
[2014/04/08 16:11] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’ve been TRYING to explain that and you keep dismissing me
[2014/04/08 16:12] Extropia DaSilva: Art. There is no limit to the amount of niches that can be generated. EVERYBODY can be an expert in something, EVERYBODY is a genius, given the right circumstances. The robot revolution will make that so.
[2014/04/08 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: But that niche needs consumers.
[2014/04/08 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: Any answer that doesn’t fit into your preconceptions, you don’t recognize as an answer.
[2014/04/08 16:12] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Do you really think people can ONLY be ONE thing?
[2014/04/08 16:12] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): capital seems tigtly bound to the concept of consumism
[2014/04/08 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: OR the economy needs to change so that it is no longer producer and consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:13] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And that is WHAT IS HAPPENING
[2014/04/08 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: How is that happening?
[2014/04/08 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: It could be a market for very few. The robots will not care. They will produce whatever you need in whatever quantity you need it, with some constraints to prevent runaway materialism.
[2014/04/08 16:13] Zobeid Zuma: I make my money from gas wells and leases (land) and investments (capital). I don’t work, and I do Just Fine. That’s the future.
[2014/04/08 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: who will pay you in the future?
[2014/04/08 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: Nobody will say ‘oh I would like to be X but I do not have the money’. Such thinking is obsolete.
[2014/04/08 16:14] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Look at electronics. They no-longer even manufacture their own devices they are mere design studios
[2014/04/08 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: Whoever needs what I’ve got to offer.
[2014/04/08 16:14] ArtCrash Exonar: Where will they get their money?
[2014/04/08 16:14] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): just my forecast into the blue future: when there will be huuge robot armies … they will mostly be killer robots, like flying drones trained to bomb people (dubbed terrorists, then)
[2014/04/08 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: All those robots taking everyone’s jobs, they’ll belong to someone. Somebody will get the money made from their production.
[2014/04/08 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: There is no need for pay because we are all retired, living off the credits provided by a highly efficient robot workforce:)
[2014/04/08 16:14] ArtCrash Exonar: So everyone who doesn’t own a business is screwed?
[2014/04/08 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: No. Where did you get that idea?
[2014/04/08 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t own a business, and I’m doing Just Fine.
[2014/04/08 16:15] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): With Watson level Artifical Experts, anyone will have access to the expertise needed to make theor own business if they wish
[2014/04/08 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: Why do we need credits? To manage resources.
[2014/04/08 16:16] Extropia DaSilva: Otherwise I could order the replicators to cover the Earth’s surface in lifesize statues of me.
[2014/04/08 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: Well the elephant in the room is that goods will be distributed in a workless society by government in some form or another. There is no other solution.
[2014/04/08 16:16] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *sigh* okay, Let me try this. Do you need Lindens to survive in SL? Really truly?
[2014/04/08 16:16] Zobeid Zuma: “Retirement” is probably the best existing model we have for how most people will eventually end up living, in a future where robots do all the work.
[2014/04/08 16:16] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Do you HAVE to work to survive in SL?
[2014/04/08 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: I have to work to pay LL my fee for this sim…
[2014/04/08 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: No you can get some fairly good stuff for free.
[2014/04/08 16:17] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Or do you do stuff to make L just to have perks and advantages?
[2014/04/08 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: In SL.
[2014/04/08 16:17] Zobeid Zuma: Why government? Where do you get that suddenly the government has to run everything? Where’s the logic?
[2014/04/08 16:17] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Valkyrie, paying tier fees squeezes most avatars dry
[2014/04/08 16:17] ArtCrash Exonar: So who will give me the means to buy stuff Zo?
[2014/04/08 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: I can live for free in SL. But of course my primary has to pay for the Internet, and electricity.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: The MARKETPLACE. It’s not going away.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I don’t own a home in SL, Never have.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: She is like the robot who slaves so I can party in luskwood all day of my life if I so chose:)
[2014/04/08 16:18] ArtCrash Exonar: No one can live for free in SL, they have to buy a computer and they have to pay for network access.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: There will always be a need for economic resources, and people (or maybe AIs) who will buy and sell them.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): No, there will always be a Market, and Money. But basic NEEDS will no longer be part of it\
[2014/04/08 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: VAL can live for free if her PRIMARY pays for the RL requirments of SL.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It will be a market of DESIRES
[2014/04/08 16:18] ArtCrash Exonar: If you have a marketplace you have to have consumers and the consumers need a source of income.
[2014/04/08 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: Yes.
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: So what is the source of income of those who don’t work in the future?
[2014/04/08 16:19] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): now since we are almost over time, I am curious to know today’s toppic
[2014/04/08 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: I have answered that.
[2014/04/08 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: There is no income.
[2014/04/08 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: I have answered that, and answered that, and you keep treating me like I never said anything.
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: You didn’t!
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: You said you have stocks
[2014/04/08 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: There is a pension. A lifelong pension provided by the economy which is fully automated.
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: Is that your answer?
[2014/04/08 16:20] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yup, and there will be many ways to earn an income. Can I say exactly what those jobs will be at present? Nope, but I can think of quite a few possibilities.
[2014/04/08 16:20] Zobeid Zuma: I said people will sell LAND and CAPITAL and ENTREPRENEURIAL ABILITY. All the economic resources other than labor.
[2014/04/08 16:20] Zobeid Zuma: Stocks are one example of that, they are a form of capital.
[2014/04/08 16:20] ArtCrash Exonar: That can’t be everyone. Why is that difficult to understand?
[2014/04/08 16:20] Zobeid Zuma: Why can’t it be everyone?
[2014/04/08 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: Art why be selfish?
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: Most people work now. You replace them with capital, somebody’s got to own that capital.
[2014/04/08 16:21] ArtCrash Exonar: Because in the equation you have producer and consumer, not producer only.
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see the problem.
[2014/04/08 16:21] ArtCrash Exonar: Libertarians seldom do.
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: Well?
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: Spell it out for me, if I’m that dense. :p
[2014/04/08 16:22] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And land will not mean as much when the current uses for them are no longer relevant. With printed foodstocks, no need for vast agriculture, with new resource extraction tech, no need for huge areas of land for mining etc. with VR houses, no need to have vast tracts tied up in houses when everyone can have a house of infinite size
[2014/04/08 16:22] Extropia DaSilva: If we have robots and other forms of automation providing everything the global economy needs, why should people even NEED to earn an income? Why not just distribute the vast wealth the robots generate so we may all live in dignity?
[2014/04/08 16:22] ArtCrash Exonar: There are a lot of people in the world. If they don’t have jobs producing things, they have no way to get access to capital or land or stocks or anything.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Oh there you go again!!
[2014/04/08 16:23] Zobeid Zuma: Yes… Well, we’ll need to do something about that.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Zobeid Zuma: We’ll need to come up with some sort of plan to ensure that ordinary people — former laborers — can get their hands on enough economic resources to sustain themselves.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Ner ner ner we have enough to support you but unless you work we give you nothing. That is AWFUL Art.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Ari (arisia.vita): It’s been great being with you all but I must fly. Be well and happy and I hope to see you all again soon.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Bye Ari!
[2014/04/08 16:23] Ari (arisia.vita): bye for a bit
[2014/04/08 16:24] ~Fae Faire Orange Nini Pillow [Wear Me!]~: releasing controls
[2014/04/08 16:24] ArtCrash Exonar: So that means government, right Extie?
[2014/04/08 16:24] Zobeid Zuma: I’ve got some possible ideas about how we might do it.
[2014/04/08 16:24] ArtCrash Exonar: That is the WE that will support others.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Second Life: Ari (arisia.vita) is offline.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: I must be into this debate to let it go on past 3:15.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: thanks for whatever that was Luisa.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): with the cost of material good reaching minimal value, you might very well make a living being paid to be a consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:25] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Extie, that is if the discussion will end in a pillow fight, smaking more solid arguments
[2014/04/08 16:25] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s not an easy question to answer, because we have very little experience with the economic model
[2014/04/08 16:26] ArtCrash Exonar: Future income must come from somewhere. Otherwise the consumer/producer economic model must be entirely abandoned.
[2014/04/08 16:26] Zobeid Zuma: darn it, I can’t figure out how to swing this thing :p
[2014/04/08 16:26] ArtCrash Exonar: script error
[2014/04/08 16:26] ~Fae Faire Orange Nini Pillow [Wear Me!]~: releasing controls
[2014/04/08 16:26] Extropia DaSilva: Fact is, full unemployment is a mathematical inevitability in any system whose primary goal is increased profits. And either we condemn people to economic obselence or we design to take advantage of inevitable robots.
[2014/04/08 16:27] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It will come from somewhere, but the NEED for that income stream will be VASTLY reduced
[2014/04/08 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: Welcome to the Socialist future…. heh
[2014/04/08 16:27] Zobeid Zuma: Everybody is a consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: People only consume if they have income.
[2014/04/08 16:27] Extropia DaSilva: no
[2014/04/08 16:28] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not socialist. True communism where EVERYONE has their own means of production
[2014/04/08 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: yes Val
[2014/04/08 16:28] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): technology evolves faster then society. our current economical order might not survive that. IP rights made a start, to show that point
[2014/04/08 16:28] Zobeid Zuma: And Val… I don’t see “printed foodstocks” making the need for agriculture disappear. You’ve got to get the feedstock from somewhere. I guess it could be, I dunno… algae or something.
[2014/04/08 16:28] ArtCrash Exonar: That is what I was trying to get you all to admit! haha
[2014/04/08 16:28] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not marxism Art.
[2014/04/08 16:28] Zobeid Zuma: What did they all admit?
[2014/04/08 16:28] ArtCrash Exonar: who said it was?
[2014/04/08 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: Resource based economy. Not a cult of personality like Stalinist Russia or North Korea under Kim Jon Il or whoever.
[2014/04/08 16:29] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not a political system at all
[2014/04/08 16:29] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Zob, if we have to nibble on algae instead of decent food, you will have a massive revolution :D
[2014/04/08 16:29] ArtCrash Exonar: If it is controlled by laws it is a political system.
[2014/04/08 16:29] ArtCrash Exonar: Soylent Green is PEOPLE!
[2014/04/08 16:30] Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2014/04/08 16:30] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Again, every atom used in the making of food is available from the atmosphere
[2014/04/08 16:30] ArtCrash Exonar: not true
[2014/04/08 16:30] Extropia DaSilva: Last thoughts folks…will there be less crime in the future?
[2014/04/08 16:30] Zobeid Zuma: Our current economic system will have to change a lot. There will be great upheavals. But I don’t think going Communist is the answer.
[2014/04/08 16:30] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): when we are making things from the atoms up,
[2014/04/08 16:30] ArtCrash Exonar: There are many metals and minerals in food that are not in the atmosphere.
[2014/04/08 16:30] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): nope. not going to happen. crime is a lifestyle to some people
[2014/04/08 16:31] Zobeid Zuma: I have no idea, Extie. :/
[2014/04/08 16:31] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And I disagree. I think “crime as we know it” will vanish
[2014/04/08 16:31] Zobeid Zuma: Most of the statistics would point to less crime, but… that’s not due to technology.
[2014/04/08 16:31] ArtCrash Exonar: Crime will vanish when poverty vanishes.
[2014/04/08 16:31] Extropia DaSilva: Ok…
[2014/04/08 16:31] Extropia DaSilva: well my time is up!

Posted in after thinkers | Tagged | Leave a comment

Thinkers April 01 2014: Oculus Rift and Facebook

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome back to Thinkers! After its long absence due to pointless bloody clock changes (mutters)
[2014/04/01 15:30] Extropia DaSilva: so this week the topic is….
[2014/04/01 15:30] Extropia DaSilva: What does Facebook want with VR?
[2014/04/01 15:30] Zobeid Zuma: /me is working to fix that!
[2014/04/01 15:31] Extropia DaSilva: go for it zo. You would be doing me a great service.
[2014/04/01 15:31] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): Facebook is going to do VR?!
[2014/04/01 15:31] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): Any links?
[2014/04/01 15:31] Extropia DaSilva: No. Facebook has bought Oculus Rift, which is a company that is making a VR headset.
[2014/04/01 15:31] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): oh
[2014/04/01 15:32] Zobeid Zuma: Google will turn up many many news and opinion pieces on the subject.
[2014/04/01 15:32] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): to compete with Google Glass?
[2014/04/01 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: I think facebook wants to beat google to the punch with VR headsets and they aren’t sure what they want to do with it.
[2014/04/01 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: The real losers are the game companies in this debacle
[2014/04/01 15:32] Extropia DaSilva: I would imagine not. OR is a pure gaming device wheras Glass is more like a wearable computer.
[2014/04/01 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: Well VR vs Augmented R
[2014/04/01 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: what about SL? HAmlet was sure Oculus would be the saviour of SL, but what if FB own it?
[2014/04/01 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: Also worth noting… Oculus competitors are starting to appear.
[2014/04/01 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: Facebook will be greedy about it and make it fail, I’m sure.
[2014/04/01 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Sony for one.
[2014/04/01 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: But I’m guessing the Sony thing will only work with Playstation, and therefore is of little interest to most of us.
[2014/04/01 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: You are right.
[2014/04/01 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: However… http://www.gamespot.com/articles/true-player-gear-reveals-alternative-to-oculus-rift/1100-6418642/
[2014/04/01 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: I would really like to know what the big game companies like Blizzard and EA are thinking about this whole thing.
[2014/04/01 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: It is interesting to me, of course.
[2014/04/01 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: Hope that link works for the rest of you. My network is messed up at the moment.
[2014/04/01 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: cuz I have a PS4. Or will do very soon.
[2014/04/01 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: I’ll be going for a Steam Machine here. :)
[2014/04/01 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: so how would VR work with FB? Any ideas?
[2014/04/01 15:35] ArtCrash Exonar: The first to market with any innovation usually wins. First to market with ADOPTION, that is.
[2014/04/01 15:35] Roxie Marten: you can like things by blinking LOL
[2014/04/01 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: It would allow you to do all sorts of boring mundane things in VR instead of in RL! The Zuckman said so!
[2014/04/01 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: link won’t work for me
[2014/04/01 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: I can see the OR and SL connection. But Facebook…. no I do not see how they are related.
[2014/04/01 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: drat…
[2014/04/01 15:36] Ari (arisia.vita): worked for me
[2014/04/01 15:37] Roxie Marten: Unless FB is going to be that long awaited competition that SL has been waiting for
[2014/04/01 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: Ari has the power.
[2014/04/01 15:37] ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t forget facebook is a platform for a LOT of games. Lame though they may be.
[2014/04/01 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: BTW, I noticed the True Player Gear goggles also include cameras for each eye, so they can overlay a RL view with the virtual scene. I don’t think Oculus does that?
[2014/04/01 15:37] Roxie Marten: I have spent 10 years waiting for someone who is more sexy, to do this cheaper, faster and better
[2014/04/01 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: no it does not.
[2014/04/01 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: we all have!
[2014/04/01 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: FB hasn’t treated game developers all that wonderfully. In fact, the creator of Minecraft said he dropped plans to bring it to Oculus because of the FB deal.
[2014/04/01 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: Minecraft isn’t facebook related….
[2014/04/01 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: yes that was a real pity. I salivated at the thought of Minecraft and OR:)
[2014/04/01 15:38] Roxie Marten: Oculus is a kluge. I think FB got taken
[2014/04/01 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: How is it a kluge? (kludge??)
[2014/04/01 15:39] Roxie Marten: IT’s heavy, expensive, does not work with glasses
[2014/04/01 15:39] Extropia DaSilva: It is not really a kludge roxie. It is the best affordable headset you can get.
[2014/04/01 15:39] ArtCrash Exonar: Well Oculus is not vaporware. Those who have used early versions are impressed.
[2014/04/01 15:39] Roxie Marten: Hve you seen CastAr?
[2014/04/01 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: The True Player Gear thing also is supposed to have diopter adjustment, so most people can use it without their glasses.
[2014/04/01 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: The crystal cove and dev kit version 2 of OR is at least as good as Sony’s Morpheus. A bit better, even.
[2014/04/01 15:40] Roxie Marten: CastAr is not vapor ware they are going to manufacturing
[2014/04/01 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: So if True Player is so great, why didn’t facebook buy THEM instead?
[2014/04/01 15:40] Zobeid Zuma: Well… Best affordable headset that you should be able to get sometime Real Soon Now. :D
[2014/04/01 15:40] Roxie Marten: and it don’t give you headaches
[2014/04/01 15:40] Zobeid Zuma: True Player have been under the radar for years, or so they claim. They don’t have the buzz of Oculus. Two billion dollars worth of buzz!
[2014/04/01 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: It might do, depending on the nature of the game.
[2014/04/01 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m guessing the technologies are different.
[2014/04/01 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: What counts with the Oculus is who develops their games for it.
[2014/04/01 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: The thing about FB is… It’s easy to imagine so many ways they possibly could mess it up.
[2014/04/01 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: Was it a good deal btw, given that FB paid 15 million for some texting thingy or something as lame?
[2014/04/01 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: But we don’t know.
[2014/04/01 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: billion I mean
[2014/04/01 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: 2 billion
[2014/04/01 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: for Oculus
[2014/04/01 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: yes but 15 or 17 billion for some texting…something?
[2014/04/01 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: whatever, nowhere near as cool as VR.
[2014/04/01 15:42] Roxie Marten: I am not jarred by the FB thing. I Lived through the dot.com bust where people where throwing milions at stupid ideas because it was on the net
[2014/04/01 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: hey Violet
[2014/04/01 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: Hi Violet!
[2014/04/01 15:43] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Exti, Zo, everyone :)
[2014/04/01 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: Yes but OR is not stupid. It is the greatest revolution in gaming since 3D graphics.
[2014/04/01 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: AFAIK the Oculus was the only product that VR gamers were excited about developing for.
[2014/04/01 15:43] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): Here is Facebook’s chat app: http://www.snapchat.com
[2014/04/01 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: Let’s pay 10 bazillion for this hot startup company that counts clicks on the web! :D
[2014/04/01 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: hello Stranger.
[2014/04/01 15:43] Roxie Marten: My thought they may of bought it to bury it
[2014/04/01 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: Not easy to bury, unless they hold a lot of patents.
[2014/04/01 15:44] ArtCrash Exonar: SL is still developing for the Oculus
[2014/04/01 15:45] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I assumed the idea was to have a few different baskets for different kinds of eggs…but I will admit it gave me pause; FB is kind of the opposite of immersive virtual world stuff…
[2014/04/01 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: SL Oculus is something I’ll believe when I see it.
[2014/04/01 15:45] Roxie Marten: SL still devlopes for space navigator. any many got one of those?
[2014/04/01 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: But they have the beta OR viewer already, Zo.
[2014/04/01 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: for SL I mean
[2014/04/01 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: I got one. What do you mean, develops for it? I haven’t seen anything.
[2014/04/01 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: so it looks pretty serious.
[2014/04/01 15:46] Roxie Marten: they are suppose to be developing for leap connect too
[2014/04/01 15:46] Zobeid Zuma: From what I heard, the OR viewer “works” but isn’t really usable.
[2014/04/01 15:46] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): once the Navigator driver is available, there’s not much more to do.
[2014/04/01 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: Oh, that
[2014/04/01 15:46] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): it is not a gamechanger, a 3D mouse device
[2014/04/01 15:47] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): A facemouse?
[2014/04/01 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: Kinect did not seem to really take off for gaming.
[2014/04/01 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: Navigator doesn’t work without a long tedious process of configuring and experimenting with it!
[2014/04/01 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: And they’ve done nothing to improve that.
[2014/04/01 15:47] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): lol Violet “the Facebook mouse! in the face!”
[2014/04/01 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: I heard SL will have an Oculus enabled browser VERY soon.
[2014/04/01 15:47] Roxie Marten: considering the starts, stumbles and fails that have come out of Linden Lab, I wouldn’t use them as the yardstick to compare against when it comes to developing
[2014/04/01 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: If they “support” OR the same way they’ve supported Navigator, most people will not go through that kind of hassle.
[2014/04/01 15:48] Zobeid Zuma: Right on, Roxie.
[2014/04/01 15:48] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): Oculus can get up to 3 billion dollars more if they meet certain results.
[2014/04/01 15:48] Roxie Marten: I wonder if our new ceo has found the washroom yet LOL
[2014/04/01 15:48] ArtCrash Exonar: What are the results?
[2014/04/01 15:48] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, ambition does tend to eff up a lot
[2014/04/01 15:49] Zobeid Zuma: Here’s how I see it playing out with SL…
[2014/04/01 15:49] Roxie Marten: I am happy for the Occulus people. they could get Suckerberg to shell out that kind of money:)
[2014/04/01 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: Given that VR and lag absolutely do not go together…I am kind of skeptical about coupling SL to OR.
[2014/04/01 15:50] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): “Results” or “Targets” was mentioned in this video report: http://youtu.be/tyv9CqndUYI
[2014/04/01 15:50] Zobeid Zuma: LL releases a bug-riddled, limited, awkward viewer for OR. It’s never folded into the normal viewer that most people DL and use. After a while LL drop support for OR because “our users just didn’t adopt it the way we expected”.
[2014/04/01 15:50] Roxie Marten: Another case of throwing too much at something because people thought it was hot and sexy Time Warner and AOL.
[2014/04/01 15:51] Zobeid Zuma: If they say anything at all, which they probably won’t.
[2014/04/01 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: cynic:)
[2014/04/01 15:51] Roxie Marten: yep I am
[2014/04/01 15:51] ArtCrash Exonar: http://sl.governormarley.com/?p=3777 LL and Oculus browser development
[2014/04/01 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: Probably true though!
[2014/04/01 15:51] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Time Warner got on the virtual worlds bandwagon back in the 90s, too
[2014/04/01 15:51] Roxie Marten: I was called a cynic when I said “buy dog food on line, I go to the store and buy” The sock puppet dog went out of business
[2014/04/01 15:51] Zobeid Zuma: /me thumps her interwebs connection.
[2014/04/01 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Nope, can’t view it.
[2014/04/01 15:52] Roxie Marten: I blame my self the sock puppet puppy died :)
[2014/04/01 15:52] ArtCrash Exonar: Just Google Linden Lab and Oculus Rift
[2014/04/01 15:52] Extropia DaSilva: Is it possible that Facebook will make no attempt to integrate OR and will just make money off it as an entirely separate enterprise?
[2014/04/01 15:53] ArtCrash Exonar: No
[2014/04/01 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: why not?
[2014/04/01 15:53] ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/04/01 15:53] Roxie Marten: CNN did a story last week that social media is started to fade. Maybe FB bought themself a bunch of buzz
[2014/04/01 15:53] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I imagine FB will use it as an advertising platform, but I can’t see anyone wanting FB all up in their face that much…although it will probably get integrated in some lazy way?
[2014/04/01 15:53] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): How much do you want to bet that Facebook ends up buying SL?!
[2014/04/01 15:53] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That was my thought, Roxie
[2014/04/01 15:54] ArtCrash Exonar: Because FaceBook is megalomaniacal and wants to rule the world.
[2014/04/01 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Yes… 3D virtual ads in my face, that I need. :p
[2014/04/01 15:54] Extropia DaSilva: How can FB buy a company whose very ethos is the polar opposite?
[2014/04/01 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: BTW, I do remember the early days of SL when it seemed like the whole mainland was billboards and strip malls.
[2014/04/01 15:54] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): haha
[2014/04/01 15:54] ArtCrash Exonar: That might be right Pi
[2014/04/01 15:54] Roxie Marten: If you go back through history at companies flush with cash riding the hype and he dumb things they bought.
[2014/04/01 15:54] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): Don’t worry about ads, you can always use this –> http://fbpurity.com
[2014/04/01 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: But how can it be right? What would it mean for me and all other digital/fictional avatars if FB owns SL?
[2014/04/01 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: I think Facebook would consider buying SL IF the Oculus Integration looks like it might lead to large adoption of new people.
[2014/04/01 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: Not that FB seem to care about my FB account..
[2014/04/01 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: not shut me down yet:)
[2014/04/01 15:56] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): when FB gets grab on SL, they will probably have to kill a lot of avatars. They did to them before, avatar names creating Facebook profiles
[2014/04/01 15:56] Roxie Marten: SL is old news. The facebooks kiddies like new and sexy. also Linden Lab is damaged goods. musical ceos’ mass firings, shaky product
[2014/04/01 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: You can’t change the Avatar system in SL without losing most of the residents.
[2014/04/01 15:56] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): I’m looking forward to an Apple version of Oculus Rift with iPhone integration! ;o)
[2014/04/01 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/04/01 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: Yes… SL was briefly pegged to set the world on fire, and then didn’t, and therefore is worthy of naught but scorn.
[2014/04/01 15:57] Roxie Marten: FB would be the stake through the heart to SL
[2014/04/01 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: VR was pegged to set the world on fire. It is typical that a product fails to live up to the hype but in the longterm its success is greater than anticipated.
[2014/04/01 15:58] ArtCrash Exonar: what she said
[2014/04/01 15:58] Stranger Nightfire: We may have to hope that Philip Rosedale’s new project turns out to be something worthwhile
[2014/04/01 15:58] Roxie Marten: It would of set the world on fire if the world had seen more than sex parties and fashion shows out of SL
[2014/04/01 15:58] Zobeid Zuma: Well, VR’s long-term success is still hypothetical.
[2014/04/01 15:58] ArtCrash Exonar: Philip’s project has limited resources
[2014/04/01 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: I do not think SL will have that success, but I am certain that one day we will see online worlds that fully deliver the immense promise SL has.
[2014/04/01 15:59] ArtCrash Exonar: Full immersion VR that Oculus Promises will revolutionize all of VR starting with first person shooter games.
[2014/04/01 15:59] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I do wonder why virtual worlds have never caught on…there were two periods where it seemed like they would, but they fizzled. I don’t know if it’s a learning curve thing, a bad-interface thing, a time-investment thing, all of the above and then some thing…
[2014/04/01 15:59] Roxie Marten: I think SL is going to be to VW’
[2014/04/01 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: And OR has all-new technology, or really, a synthesis of all the stuff that was developed by different companies the first time around. So if you’re waiting for the same to happen to SL, it won’t actually be SL or Linden Labs that does it.
[2014/04/01 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: The game I am hoping for is an OS version of Silent Hill. Or Deadspace.
[2014/04/01 16:00] Roxie Marten: SL is going to be to VW’s what teh Duryea Car is to automobiles, a nice foot as the first but never went much further
[2014/04/01 16:00] Stranger Nightfire: I think the learning curve problem has been a major part of it
[2014/04/01 16:00] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): With VR, at least, the technology has never really been there before and even now I’m not sure most people *want* full immersion
[2014/04/01 16:00] Stranger Nightfire: people come to SL and end up just being annoyed
[2014/04/01 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: It’ll be some new company that comes along and looks at all the lessons learned from SL and There and Blue Mars and OpenSim and all the others, and then uses that knowledge to create a new world from a clean sheet of paper.
[2014/04/01 16:01] Roxie Marten: SLis an experience, not “here I am, entertain men”
[2014/04/01 16:01] ArtCrash Exonar: My guess is that the first big Oculus success will be something Like Call of Duty 6…
[2014/04/01 16:01] Pi PhD (pi.peapod): The main reason that Virtual Worlds have *NOT* caught on is that the MAJORITY of people can’t handle the 3-D environment due to psychological issues like what happens to certain people with blinking lights.
[2014/04/01 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: and yet for all its failings, it has done better than any rival Online world including Google’s effort, Facebook’s, Sony’s…
[2014/04/01 16:01] Roxie Marten: Oh joy and shooter game.
[2014/04/01 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: Yes, the learning curve is a problem, and LL have never been able to straighten out the user interface. Why??
[2014/04/01 16:01] ArtCrash Exonar: That’s where the money is Roxie
[2014/04/01 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: because third parties like Pheonix did it for them, perhaps?
[2014/04/01 16:02] Roxie Marten: art:proves the masses are asses.
[2014/04/01 16:02] Zobeid Zuma: Those were all first-gen efforts. It’s like pointing out all the competitors of the Ford Model T that didn’t make it, and then concluding the Model T is the car of the future.
[2014/04/01 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: fix the viewer, I mean.
[2014/04/01 16:02] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): A lot of it’s baked in, by now…the quickest way to find interesting stuff in SL is to socialize and join groups, which is nice but….it could be a lot easier to get around
[2014/04/01 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: Money talks, bullshit walks
[2014/04/01 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: I think the only way to have a good viewer is to specialise. One tailored for builders and scripters, another for photographers, another for people who just like to chat…and so on.
[2014/04/01 16:02] Zobeid Zuma: Search works very poorly in SL.
[2014/04/01 16:03] Zobeid Zuma: Inventory management is a horror.
[2014/04/01 16:03] Extropia DaSilva: Trying to have a viewer that does everything..makes for a kludge.
[2014/04/01 16:03] Roxie Marten: ex:I have thought that for years.
[2014/04/01 16:03] ArtCrash Exonar: Specialized viewers aren’t well adopted. They are there now.
[2014/04/01 16:04] Roxie Marten: I teach radegast for blind people. it has a bigger following than I ever knew
[2014/04/01 16:04] Extropia DaSilva: But the viewer LL currently use is REALLY bad. I have to have so many windows open to use it, I can barely see the world!
[2014/04/01 16:04] Extropia DaSilva: SLGO! makes me use the official viewer, which sucks:(
[2014/04/01 16:04] Zobeid Zuma: Firestorm is somewhat better, but it’s unable to deviate *too* far from the LL viewer because it shares much of the same code base.
[2014/04/01 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I noticed SLGo used a stripped-down version of the LL viewer.
[2014/04/01 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: I think the Tablet version is different.
[2014/04/01 16:05] Roxie Marten: I keep the offical viewer for teaching classes. on my own time it’s FS 64
[2014/04/01 16:05] Second Life: ArtCrash Exonar is offline.
[2014/04/01 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: we lost art
[2014/04/01 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: The Death of Art:(
[2014/04/01 16:06] Roxie Marten: you got to have Art
[2014/04/01 16:06] Extropia DaSilva: The dearly depARTed.
[2014/04/01 16:06] Roxie Marten: I don’t know much about Art
[2014/04/01 16:06] Second Life: ArtCrash Exonar is online.
[2014/04/01 16:06] Extropia DaSilva: She lives!
[2014/04/01 16:06] Roxie Marten: we were were art less
[2014/04/01 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: Just in time, too. We only have ten odd minutes remaining.
[2014/04/01 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: So when it was announced that FB had bought VR, the reactions I saw from the Web were horror and disgust. Fair reactions?
[2014/04/01 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: Dost they protest too much?
[2014/04/01 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: Example quote. ‘You know what this means? Jon Carmak now works……FOR FACEBOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[2014/04/01 16:08] ArtCrash Exonar: Insta Crash. gack
[2014/04/01 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: The guy actually cried. Really.
[2014/04/01 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Actually, I can think of some past events that might be comparable…
[2014/04/01 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: hello what is up with Violet?
[2014/04/01 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Like when Microsoft bought Bungie.
[2014/04/01 16:09] Roxie Marten: Hindenberb exploding
[2014/04/01 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Or like when Sony bought Connectix.
[2014/04/01 16:09] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, jeez…I was just about to say nice things about FS and it crashes for no reason, haha
[2014/04/01 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: Well Bungie did very well with MS. Halo was supreme:)
[2014/04/01 16:09] Roxie Marten: Designated Hitter rule in baseball
[2014/04/01 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Those seemed like disasters. And it turned out… that they were disasters.
[2014/04/01 16:09] ArtCrash Exonar: I did too Violet
[2014/04/01 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Well, disasters from my viewpoint.
[2014/04/01 16:09] ArtCrash Exonar: same time
[2014/04/01 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Bungie did NOT do very well with MS.
[2014/04/01 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: No way was Halo on Xbox a disaster.
[2014/04/01 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: They never released another game for the Mac! >.<
[2014/04/01 16:10] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sigh… I was going to say I got through the clunkiness of SL with wide eyed optimism, but I can see why a lot of people would just give up
[2014/04/01 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: Yes but Halo was brilliant.
[2014/04/01 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Bungie was the premier Mac game developer. Halo was OUR holy grail game.
[2014/04/01 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: It was brilliant but I never got to play any of the sequels.
[2014/04/01 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: Yah boo! Xboxers PWN Macs!
[2014/04/01 16:11] Extropia DaSilva: 3 is the best.
[2014/04/01 16:11] ArtCrash Exonar: A smart move by Facebook would be to attempt to make the Rift a standard by convincing all the major players that they will not be evil with it. Then with their development money, they really can make it work well.
[2014/04/01 16:11] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): viewer wars … Catznip released it’s very own crypto currency right today, CATZNIP CATZCOIN™http://coin.catznip.com/
[2014/04/01 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: Same with Sony and Connectix. They only bought it so they could bury Connectix Virtual Gamestation.
[2014/04/01 16:11] Extropia DaSilva: 4 minutes left to regret your decision to pass over an Xbox in favour of a mac or talk about FB and OR, folks!
[2014/04/01 16:12] Roxie Marten: Beta Max V.S. VHS :)
[2014/04/01 16:12] Extropia DaSilva: Both dead platforms. Streaming is the future.
[2014/04/01 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: What do we ACTUALLY know about the future of Oculus Rift, now that they have been bought out? Anyone see any facts out there?
[2014/04/01 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: Well, I have nothing but fear and distrust toward Facebook.
[2014/04/01 16:12] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the future might always contain traces of downloads
[2014/04/01 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: Beta Max failed because they tried to form a monopoly and failed.
[2014/04/01 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: plenty fear FB for some reason.
[2014/04/01 16:13] Zobeid Zuma: Keep in mind that I have no FB account, no dealings with them, barely know what FB is or how it works, so it’s all by reputation for me. :/
[2014/04/01 16:13] Roxie Marten: ex:honestly I am too old to get excited about FB buying this. I don’t think the dust has settled on this yet. Too many other players that are out there
[2014/04/01 16:13] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): FB’s reputation seems to be bejond peak reputation
[2014/04/01 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: Beta definitely did not fail. It was the format used by professional TV companies like the BBC.
[2014/04/01 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m unaware of any serious players that are well along.
[2014/04/01 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: /me was irked that S-VHS was such a flop.
[2014/04/01 16:14] ArtCrash Exonar: Oculus happened BECAUSE there were no serious players.
[2014/04/01 16:14] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): peak reputations marks the moment, where the trend reversed
[2014/04/01 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: 1 minute left. (its the final countdowwwn)
[2014/04/01 16:14] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I really dislike FB on principle…I liked the idea of social networks at one time, but seeing how they actually turn out and get used, I don’t have many positive feelings there anymore
[2014/04/01 16:14] Second Life: Lydia Yalin is online.
[2014/04/01 16:14] Roxie Marten: art:people with more money than brains
[2014/04/01 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: yes Violet. 99.99999% of the posts I get on FB are of no interest to me whatsoever.
[2014/04/01 16:15] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): spam?
[2014/04/01 16:15] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I really do like virtual worlds on principle…and, I dunno, it may be better that they always stay a bit fringey :\
[2014/04/01 16:15] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): or social media noise?
[2014/04/01 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: Noise
[2014/04/01 16:15] ArtCrash Exonar: Facebook as it stands now is still just a bulletin board with live chat on the side. It needs to change as well to stay in the game long term.
[2014/04/01 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: Trouble is most of my ‘friends’ are people I never heard of.
[2014/04/01 16:16] Roxie Marten: I don’t get fb. I don’t get people who have to share what color poo they made
[2014/04/01 16:16] Extropia DaSilva: and the two I care about the most- Seren and Jamie- hardly ever login.
[2014/04/01 16:16] Second Life: Lydia Yalin is offline.
[2014/04/01 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: We are friends that have never met! haha
[2014/04/01 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: Only mind melded
[2014/04/01 16:16] Extropia DaSilva: Yes but I kind of know you a little, Art. I am talking about people who I have not even heard of or spoken to.
[2014/04/01 16:17] ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, I realize
[2014/04/01 16:17] ArtCrash Exonar: The idea of the social network ‘friend’ needs altering….
[2014/04/01 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: why do they want to be my friend? It is not as if they make any attempt at contact when I accept their friend request.
[2014/04/01 16:17] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Maybe that’s for the best :)
[2014/04/01 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: well whatever..
[2014/04/01 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: My time is up!

Posted in after thinkers | Tagged , | Leave a comment

Thinkers Feb 18 2014: Science and money

[2014/02/18 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2014/02/18 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: today the topic for discussion is…..
[2014/02/18 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: what would science be like if money were no object?
[2014/02/18 15:32]  Scarp Godenot: Everyone would become a scientist
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): smiles
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: why?
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: People do tend to go where the money is.
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, I doubt that; a lot of people would prefer to be an artist or just a consumer of science.
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, is everyone cut out to be a scientist?
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, let’s say a lot more people…
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: Hey I started out as a scientist before I became an artist! Show me the green! haha
[2014/02/18 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess another way to put the question is: What would science be like if money did not exist?
[2014/02/18 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I think that’s a very different question.
[2014/02/18 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think so.
[2014/02/18 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Not exactly the same question, Extie; because if, say, we abandoned money and went back to the barter system, there would go research grants, right down the toilet
[2014/02/18 15:34]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): May be the science itself would become a currency
[2014/02/18 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: The point, either way, is what science might be like if money were no barrier.
[2014/02/18 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: I think our world would be very much more advanced because so much about science depends on the resources to do the research.
[2014/02/18 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If money were no object though, there “let a 1000 research grants bloom”
[2014/02/18 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I meant if money did not NEED to exist. Like in Star Trek.
[2014/02/18 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: If money were no object, we’d have gotten the Superconducting Supercollider instead of a big hole in the ground.
[2014/02/18 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Star Trek is fantasy, Extie.
[2014/02/18 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I was going to suggest just that, Zo.
[2014/02/18 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sure, and there would be the Mars colony already.
[2014/02/18 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: If money wasn’t a limitation, it would solve a lot of problems in science — and probably create a bunch of new ones.
[2014/02/18 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: OK. Why would no money make it easier to colonise Mars?
[2014/02/18 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: Scientists could have minions to do the dirty work. Things would advance quickly.
[2014/02/18 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: they have that already, no?
[2014/02/18 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Not no money, Extie.  As I said, “no money” could mean a barter system, which would be the end of science research as we know it.
[2014/02/18 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: Nope, they have a few grad students with their own agendas.
[2014/02/18 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But unlimited money.  And the reason?  Because we could.
[2014/02/18 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: How does unlimited money make it any easier to get to Mars, though? I would have thought the same challenges apply with out without unlimited funds?
[2014/02/18 15:37]  Second Life: seonaid McLean is online.
[2014/02/18 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: A lot of what’s done and not done in science depends upon funding. Well, arguably *everything* depends upon funding. And sometimes it’s very irksome.
[2014/02/18 15:37]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): if money did not exist, as a limit, in itself, but also as a mean to promote science to finance anything,,,else. , how would financement be even necessary
[2014/02/18 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, some of the problems are due to lack of funds.
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Did you ever watch The Right Stuff, Extie?
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I think so. It was about test pilots and the Apollo program, right?
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Right now big business drives research dollars, and they want economic results quickly, this determined that some fields get more money than others. So scientists are forced to do research in areas that don’t really drive them intellectually just to make an impace.
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwyn
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Second Life: seonaid McLean is offline.
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right on the spot! Hi folks! Thanks, Extie!
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Id hire the best and brightest the fastest and have to learn to be the most influential leader of projects.
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: It was before Apollo.
[2014/02/18 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey Gwyn! THanks for your comments on me blog post.
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW…
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: today we are discussing…
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: what would science be like if money were no object?
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ooooh
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): there are other scoience than spac e projects
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: probably a LOT more maths!
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: /me attempts to quote from memory: “Do you boys know what makes your ships go up?” “Hell, the aerodynamics alone…” “FUNDING! Funding is what makes your ships go up. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.”
[2014/02/18 15:39]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): and head ackes
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: But are space projects particularly held back by budget issues?
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, yeah.
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: YES. They are *totally* held back by funding issues.
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: When you look closely at any scientific breakthrough, it would have happened faster with more resources added to it.
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Like the  Mars underground.
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Budget and… well, yes, I’d say yes as well.
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: aye, bit mostly human resources ;)
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *bit
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i dont know anything about their budget
[2014/02/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *bUt
[2014/02/18 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: NASA has very little money now, and what money they’ve got, Congress is forcing them to spend on useless pork-barrel projects that nobody even wants.
[2014/02/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[2014/02/18 15:41]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): they are held by the non necessecity ,,,that were the motivations in the past
[2014/02/18 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s a scandal. It’s NASAgate. Except nobody wants to talk about it in the press, for some reason.
[2014/02/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … nobody cares?
[2014/02/18 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: do you have any theories as to the reason?
[2014/02/18 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems like nobody cares.
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: I only can talk with first hand knowledge about my own original scientific field, geology, but that field would blossom greatly with more field workers on any given idea.
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do… people’s thoughts are not more focused on the deep space any more
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): who care at first to put a flag on the moon and why?
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): science goes into everything, movies, military, makeup, the quality of research would go up I think
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: NASA have their own Launch Pad To Nowhere, and nobody even cares.
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was a president, Alaya ;) heh
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Second Life: Fiona Scorfield is offline.
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): mm who?
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naked: *makeup*! YES! *punches air*
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): carter?
[2014/02/18 15:42]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): hehe
[2014/02/18 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: JFK cared :)
[2014/02/18 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, well he’s not in charge anymore. :(
[2014/02/18 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I disagree; I think though they want to absorb what they have already learned first, though.  An overwhelming amount of data has been thrust upon astronomers.
[2014/02/18 15:43]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): m mm and england too
[2014/02/18 15:43]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): and russians
[2014/02/18 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: LBJ cared. But no president since then has really committed to NASA.
[2014/02/18 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, different times I guess. We have become so much more…. ‘average’ these days. And the average’ person has ‘average’ needs: get a bigger plasma TV, more tablets, better smartphones, faster & cheaer cars, more babies….
[2014/02/18 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: I have a good friend right now who is the principle researcher in a private scientific engineering field. MOST of their research is for government defense department stuff because that is where the money is. They would do totally different stuff if that were not the case.
[2014/02/18 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well…
[2014/02/18 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Sesquitertium
[2014/02/18 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: They are into robotics btw
[2014/02/18 15:44]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): this is where star wars started, defence bugjdet, linked with energy as uranium
[2014/02/18 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Microsoft and Google do R&D pretending that money is no concern; each have their ‘billion dollar labs’´
[2014/02/18 15:45]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): so they have diferent defences motivation i guess
[2014/02/18 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, a mere billion dollars won’t go far, Gwyn.
[2014/02/18 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: In the late 1970s we launched a lot of alternative energy research… and in the 1980s and 1990s it was pretty much all killed off. And there was no advancement. If nobody is being paid to do the research, the research doesn’t get done, and the field doesn’t advance. Technology doesn’t progress on autopilot.
[2014/02/18 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Hiya Ses.
[2014/02/18 15:45]  Sesquitertium (623): /me waves
[2014/02/18 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I agree, but it depends exactly on which area you are researching.
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Bell Labs did the research for research sake thing back in the day and that is why they had so many Nobel Prize winners. They would go where the science led, not where the money was.
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some areas — space, high energy physics — are Big Money Projects.
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: would science progress faster with money taken out of the equation?
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: It would for sure
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say it depends on the field.
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In the high money areas Gwyn just spoke of, to be sure.
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, on those for sure
[2014/02/18 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But a lot of research is funded by paying the salaries of tenured professors and giving them access to a lab.
[2014/02/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not on others. Let me give a stupid example….
[2014/02/18 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: I can’t really think of an exception. More resources would benefit every field.
[2014/02/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One that Extie is fond of: nanotech.
[2014/02/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s so cheap to do good research in nanotech
[2014/02/18 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Today we have nuclear fusion research, with billions poured into ITER, which is a mega-engineering project, and legions of scientists planning their retirement around it. We also have other approaches to fusion that are limping along on a shoestring.
[2014/02/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that I have just read an article that a local shoe factory is doing nanotech research
[2014/02/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: just to get better shoes without seams :)
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s not clear that ITER is the most promising approach, but it’s taken on life and sucked all the air out of the room.
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: exactly :P
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: Research is NEVER cheap.
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, to be sure, but Scarp’s point is well taken.  I mean, make it mundane. I was telling Extie that my new look is what I’d like to look like in RL, with unlimited, time, resources, and health.
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess in the end, everything will use nanotech to some degree.
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Same goes for science
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): What if we asked, “If each of us had not a need to worry about money what would we do if scientists?”
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Only I guess the equivalent of SL for science is SF
[2014/02/18 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on what you mean with ‘cheap’. It’s not ‘zero’: research needs researchers, after all. They, at least, ust be paid.
[2014/02/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Relativity didn’t require much more than a second-rate salary to Einstein :)
[2014/02/18 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, an Einstein these days would be paid in 6 figures; that isn’t chap but isn’t in the billions either.
[2014/02/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha Naked. I would do the same I’m doing :) I would just have it done much faster. Oops. After all, Scarp IS right.
[2014/02/18 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: Einstein needed the Hale Telescope, the most expensive scientific tool of its time to prove his theory.
[2014/02/18 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): True enough, Scarp.
[2014/02/18 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: did he?
[2014/02/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But he didn’t money to develop a model, that’s what I meant
[2014/02/18 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: And then of course, there’s “Climate Change”, where both sides accuse the other of being corrupt and chasing the money.
[2014/02/18 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, not really, I suppose he could have gotten along with the Hubble…
[2014/02/18 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Eddington needed an expensive telescope to check to see if a star changes position during an eclipse?
[2014/02/18 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: He was a full professor at Princeton, last I heard they pay those guys a lot.
[2014/02/18 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, yes, 6 figures.  What I said.
[2014/02/18 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was AFTER he was famous :)
[2014/02/18 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: He needed research space and grad students to do what he did.
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I’m not saying that resaearchers should be underpaid….
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, after he was famous among mathematicians and physicists; before he was so famous, they were basing fictional characters on him.
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And more money means more assistants…
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: (Soon there will be a Thinkers about evolution and climate change and why we take scientists’s word for it regarding every theory…except those).
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi… right… I have one or two bios of Einstein looming on my shelves… it’s fun
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: Because we aren’t stupid.
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my, Extie :)
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: or are
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: haha
[2014/02/18 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): (Well, no one likes what the scientists say–like the latest research indicates that it is real–and ended in 1997)
[2014/02/18 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): (Who wants to believe that?)
[2014/02/18 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Evolution and climate change are nothing alike, Extie.
[2014/02/18 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Did evolution end in 1997?
[2014/02/18 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: The anti intellectual bent these days is being driven by a religious view of the world and a corporate political agenda that wants to preserve their own status quo…
[2014/02/18 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that may have happened; at least for humans, Gwyn.  lol
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: They are alike in the sense that a lot of people do not believe in them, and their disbelief is well known.
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, oh, you might like it has been for 200 years or more?
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: but that is next week, so..
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Just a teaser, huh, Extie?
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh!
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This week we have researchers with infinite money. Mmmh. Ohboyohboy.
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): I believe if money wasnt in the equation for advancement of science, I think something else would be the target of corruption therefore leaving us with the same question but with a different commodity.
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Second Life: Eofag is offline.
[2014/02/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naked! Nothing like a bit of good ol’ cynism :)
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I agree :)
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Hehe
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Is ‘do we have the money?’ a real question or is the REAL question ‘do we have the resources’?
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s the same thing, isn’t it?
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well. Usually more money means more resrouces
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also hmm
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): money ideally reflect resources, Zo
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So yeah.
[2014/02/18 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: We are more anti intellectual now than we were previously in the USA. You can actually see that from just asking basic questions of the general populace.
[2014/02/18 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The incentive to have ‘infinite money for research’ would do wonders to attract more students tio enter a research career
[2014/02/18 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Money is the symbolic reflection of resources, as my Great Aunt Maude would say.
[2014/02/18 15:55]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Yeah cause then money to mine asteroids would bring about mre resources somewhere beyond earth
[2014/02/18 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah… Thanks to all the hippies, now people see science as something to fear. :(
[2014/02/18 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: it would be nice if it were confined to the USA; but I’m afraid it has contaminated Europe as well….
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fear science? Oh my.
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: The hippies? not hardly. haha Thanks to the religious, and thanks to the corporate right wing.
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not see how money makes more resources. We have whatever the earth can give us, and no more (well, maybe if we could mine asteroids and stuff…)
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Around here, it’s more ‘why waste so much money with science, let’s feed people first’
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): I think if I had no limit of money Id invest in tech to purify earth.
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I was thinking about human resources.
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: More money, more human resources
[2014/02/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Infinite money, people switching careers :)
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Do you think the unlimited money everybody else had and what they would do with it would help or hinder you, Naked?
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have a few friends that went to work for Google and Microsoft because they were promised ‘infinite money’ for their R&D projects….
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And they got it!
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Absolutely have to be an undercover job unless corruption was elimiated in one swoop
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, it’s different in Europe, Gwyn; even though it may be a distinction without a difference.  In America, there is distrust of science because it is inconsistent with religious beliefs; in Europe, there is a distrust of science because it is inconsistent with political beliefs
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: I think if science had as much money as professional sports for it’s practitioners, it would be seen as a goal of young people. Instead of now where playing football is their highest yearning.
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Err…. It was the lefties who delivered the histrionic messages about: DDT, ozone layer, carcinogens and trans-fats in food, the evil evils of nuclear power, acid rain, “climate change”, etc., etc.
[2014/02/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ooooh Rhi. You’re SO RIGHT
[2014/02/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never though of it that way! Yes, you’re hitting the spot there
[2014/02/18 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: And endless litany of science-gone-wrong that’s going to kill us.
[2014/02/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: YES.
[2014/02/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s political in the Us as well, Zo, but you have the added bonus of having to deal with religion as well
[2014/02/18 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): heh, like that sliders, where they was a sport that combined (was it hockey?) a contact sport with answering advanced scientific questions.
[2014/02/18 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, I have heard from reliable sources that the same is happening in Brazil. That’s why science doesn’t ‘pick up’ there too, even though they have plenty of resources….
[2014/02/18 15:59]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): But if loking at about of GDP invested in R&D Israel is top and also extremely high in producting new tech second to states I think
[2014/02/18 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: In the USA smart kids drop out of science because their peers call them nerds and geeks during their school years. It is really a cultural failing: this idea that smart kids are losers.
[2014/02/18 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Specially electronic gadgets, Naked. That’s quite true :)
[2014/02/18 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s their ‘let’s demilitarize science’ attitude towards science. It started in the 1990s and paid off!
[2014/02/18 16:00]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Einstien knew right to start a university there
[2014/02/18 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but all attributions of anti-intellectualism aside; if you take the defense budget, the money from fed and State going to research universities, and the 6 figure salaries of top scientists, a huge chunk of the GDP goes to science.
[2014/02/18 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: agreed!
[2014/02/18 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: Except it really doesn’t Rhi.
[2014/02/18 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it not cool to be a geek or a nerd, then? I thought it would be after Facebook and Google and Microsoft enabled some geeks to become richer than rockstars.
[2014/02/18 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp–ever see the bumper sticker, “you will work for a nerd.”
[2014/02/18 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I know I wish I was a geek.
[2014/02/18 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I don’t know, Rhi. Around here, the budgets for science and military are quite the opposite as in the US, and it’s still not enough; Europe trails behind the US
[2014/02/18 16:01]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Its taken me this long (31 yrs) to finally discover Im a researcher at heart
[2014/02/18 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, it’s adopting the US model of higher education just to become competitive; it still has a lot of catching up to do
[2014/02/18 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, Gwyn, it will never be enough; and we are fantasizing a world without scarcity, at least for science.
[2014/02/18 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s our lower education that’s mostly broken. :(
[2014/02/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, true hehe
[2014/02/18 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, where are you?  The American model of higher education was adopted, self-consciously, from Germany.
[2014/02/18 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: I think a world without scarcity is possible.
[2014/02/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: perahaps, but that’s universal except in the countries adopting the Singapore/Danish/Finnish models of lower education
[2014/02/18 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It should be called the “German” model; why Presidents are called Chancellors.
[2014/02/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really, Rhi? But it’s so different!
[2014/02/18 16:02]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): If I had unlimited resources Id love to develop a system of discovery of gifting for young children around the world.
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, dare I say it?  It has evolved.  lol
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess Germay did a bad turn somewhere in time, then :)
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Haha perhaps that’s it: evolved and improved
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, about 1933, if I recall.
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: It might depend on how you define scarcity, Extie. Because there are always going to be *some* kind of limits on resources.
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Germans and Austrians did bad, they gave us quantum theory and screwed everything up.
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes I guess that is true, Zo.
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: haha
[2014/02/18 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I had unlimited resources in science, I’d research how to get unlimited resources anywe+here :)
[2014/02/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: in the case of Germany, only reluctantly so :) Nazis hated quantum theory :)
[2014/02/18 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: If I define it as being able to satisfy the hierarchy of needs below self actualization on Maslow’s pyramid…is that achievable?
[2014/02/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or relativity. They had vortex theory instead.
[2014/02/18 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: If we had unlimited resources for astronomy, we could build a full observatory on the moon. How cool would that be? :)
[2014/02/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm Extie. The cynic in me would say “yes, but those on the top will never allow it to get crowded up there” :)
[2014/02/18 16:05]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): There will always be a concentration of corruption on the planet to get in the way
[2014/02/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: WAY cool, Zo! Perhaps the Chinese will do that for us.
[2014/02/18 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Did they, Gwyn?  I would think they’d love it–it could mean the World Ice Theory was correct.  I mean it is as bizaare as that theory was.
[2014/02/18 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: So in an ideal future ‘star trek’ society where you pursued your own intellectual interests without regard to lack of resources, there could and would be far more researchers simply because basic human needs jobs would be non existent, right? So science and arts would be primary.
[2014/02/18 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah… China is going while we spin our wheels. :(
[2014/02/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, it was seen as “Jewish Science”
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: world ice. Is that like snowball earth?
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): that was relativity physics, Gwyn.
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: China is sort of ‘stumling along’, but not giving up easily.
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Maybe QM, too; I dunno.
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe green are a type of money, greens, , lively ressources, for oxigene mostly
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: QM too
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Stumbling?
[2014/02/18 16:06]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): My theory is that earth is expanding and therefore equater cloer to sun but poles remain same location therefore water evaported and accumulated at poles makes sense and so soes the huge stretch marks across the atlatic on both side of the atlantic rise.
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actualy, vortex physics is QUITE interesting. But no sane researcher would ever study “Nazi Science” these days of course :)
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): and pacific rise
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, it’s all politics…..
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: In their space efforts the Chinese are advancing quite rapidly, especially when you consider they aren’t spending really vast sums on it.
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): NS, the stretch marks are because the Earth gave birth.
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): and still is
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I totally agree with that assessment.
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): we dont need a space race again , i think
[2014/02/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whispers: We need a *commercial* space race though :D
[2014/02/18 16:08]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): not in my opinions
[2014/02/18 16:08]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): it can be finince diferently
[2014/02/18 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can see China putting Selenites working on Moon factories for a bowl of rice per day…..
[2014/02/18 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: You will have a commercial space race when there is money to be made in space. Not before.
[2014/02/18 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Well that may actually be happening, Gwyn.
[2014/02/18 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, given US politics, I think it will be like the Mexican conquest.  We’ll give outer space to the Indians and the Chinese–I mean, what use can it have.  LIke we took the valuable land from the Mexicans; didn’t realize oil was going to be found and be of use…
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: it has started. But very slowly. NASA having less money means outsourcing cheaper spacecraft. And that is certainly happening
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): it existed before the satelits….
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Rhi
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: SpaceX and Sierra Nevada are charging hard.
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My, this group should not be called “The thinkers” but “The Cynics!”
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): now we have only to maintian them, not race for them
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Scarp Godenot: The mexican claim on the current western US was as empty as any colonial claim. Just borders on a map that they made up.
[2014/02/18 16:09]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): truthists?
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): hehe
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): it wasa colonial race for the moon
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): now it s over
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps…. but it’s just over for some.
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I’m dressed to be a Cynic.  lol
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): there is nothing to find there
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even the Japanese have some crazy ideas for the Moon
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW I did hear that a Mars mission would be so expensive, no single country could afford it. So if we ever send people to mars it will be through a collaborative effort involving many countries.
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): (reference to Diogenes)
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: hahahaha that explains everything about your, uh, ‘outfit’
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): now we need to find what is in our oceans
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): deep deep
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: water?
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes, but no one could afford to go to the Moon either.  lol
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me hands Rhi a barrel of wine. Not empty.
[2014/02/18 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: A manned Mars mission could be completely affordable if we did it right.
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): in the gound
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): of them
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s just that nobody wants to use eeeevil nuclear rockets. :P
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: The idea of mining asteroids is kind of crazy, because there is no way to bring the resources back to earth. It only works for building things in space.
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not on human spacecraft
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): me did ‘t realize it was full, and now is sitting in a red puddle of wine
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): rockets, ,lol are the nuclear plants itself
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): they explode by themself look fukoshima
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: 4 minutes left, folks..
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: No way to bring the resources back to Earth?? I don’t get it?
[2014/02/18 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: you can use tugs with ion thursters for that. Aye, it means more nuclear rockets :D
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s this thing called “gravity”, you should look it up. :)
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, they dismantled the pony express, but maybe they can bring it back.
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alaya: we’re experts at controlled explosions. Look at cars and the combustion engine :)
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Don’t you mean, “look it down,” Zo?
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: You can’t bring resources back to earth in any but small amounts. Without causing massive damage.
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Space elevator!
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: It would leave rather a big hole.
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see how you reach that conclusion…
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): controled, explosions,,.. not sure about that
[2014/02/18 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: In the ground.
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): its rather never controled
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): yet
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): we need to find that
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, oh, sure you can. You drop them into the Gobi desert or the Mojave and tell every one to duck at first sight.
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, safe enough for use, Alaya — I mean the combustion engine
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): and it will b eok
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: two minutes left folks.
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): its old , material
[2014/02/18 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: (Of course you can always carry on after I leave, lol!)
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Antyhing over a meter in size can cause massive damage if you just drop it to earth.
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): its done already
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, as the old saying goes, ‘The difference between Physics and Chemistry is that physics blows things up, chemistry stinks’
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I would, but Scarp always has the AC on high here; my nipples are already harder than titanium.
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree, Scarp..
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: So… Science today is totally driven, constrained and skewed by money. So much so that science without that influence is hard to even imagine, except that it would look *very* different from what we have today. That’s my summary.
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*
[2014/02/18 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: we would have to find some way of getting the material safely to earth. Gravity alone would NOT do it safely.
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me approves the conclusion of this meeting by Zo. Hear, hear.
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, you obviously haven’t taught chemistry to 8th grade homeschoolers.
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Space elevator!
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): all that is degrading stinks, but, when financing witout money , find a new odor than money,, will it be corruptible
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (deja vu)
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: no I haven’t!
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: I would describe it today as pure research proceeds slowly due to lack of resources.
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: OK final question..would science be helped if money were no object?
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: YES!
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wellllllllll
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You blow things up with chemistry; physics explains why they blew up and where the fragments will be headed.
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): no and yes
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: yes and yes
[2014/02/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, we’re getting better at doing cheaper science ;)
[2014/02/18 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: (Gwynie never commits to a straight yes or no)
[2014/02/18 16:16]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): hell cheaper, mean , no big profit, how will it works?
[2014/02/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me hands over the cup to Rhi
[2014/02/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: have you noticed that too???
Posted in after thinkers | Leave a comment

The X-Files’ True Skeptic.

THE X-FILES’ TRUE SKEPTIC.
Who is the true skeptic of the X-files, that 90s TV series concerning two FBI agents who investigate paranormal activities?
The answer might seem obvious to anyone who has heard of the show. Everybody knows that Agent Fox Mulder is the Believer, driven by an incident from his childhood in which his sister Samantha was taken from the family home. Mulder believes this crime was committed by aliens and as an adult devotes his life to proving the reality of alien abductions, ghosts, ESP, and anything which lies beyond scientific explanation.
His perfect counterpoint is his partner, Dana Scully. A medical scientist, she seeks the more plausible explanation as an alternative to Mulder’s outlandish speculations. It is not a UFO, it is swamp gas. It is not a phenomenon involving the teleportation of some object, it is an ordinary crime made to look extraordinary. In earlier episodes of the series, Scully would typically raise her eyebrow at Mulder’s theories, thereby registering her utter disbelief.
Scully, then, is the skeptic to Mulder’s believer.
But, actually, I would argue that Mulder is the true skeptic.
To be fair to agent Scully, while she is not a true skeptic like Mulder is, it would be unfair to call her a psuedoskeptic. What is a psuedoskeptic? For one thing, it is a term that is much abused by conspiracy theory nuts, who typically level it at anybody who does not take their word for it about what is really going on, or are not persuaded as they are by what evidence has been presented in support of whatever it is they believe. More rational people would counter this attitude by pointing out that the more extraordinary a claim is, the greater the burden of proof needs to be. A real psuedoskeptic is not someone who is yet to be persuaded to accept a radical theory, but rather someone who cannot be persuaded, because they just know it cannot be, and nothing will change their mind.
The philosopher Soren Kierkegaard pointed out that there are two ways in which to fool oneself. “One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true”. A real psuedoskeptic is guilty of the latter kind of self-deception, particularly when the truth has been established beyond reasonable doubt.
In that sense, then, Agent Scully is not a psuedoskeptic, because she is quite clearly willing to accept the existence of that which lies beyond the boundaries of current science. In fact, as the series develops she becomes somewhat less the rigid scientist accepting nothing but a materialist explanation and becomes more open to so-called ‘extreme possibilties’ (actually, Dana is a catholic so it is probably not appropriate to call her a strict materialist).
But while she is more open-minded than either a conspiracy theory nut (that would be a person guilty of Kiergegaard’s first kind of self-deception) or a psuedoskeptic, she is not quite the perfect skeptic that Mulder is.
So what makes Mulder a better skeptic than Scully, indeed most people?
It is because he is so rationally open to extreme possibilities. In other words, he has a really fine-tuned ability to judge when the time has come to look beyond conventional, rational thinking. He does not just jump straight to extreme possibilities if the evidence does not justify such a leap. In fact, quite often he is heard to say “I see no evidence of” (insert name of paranormal activity here). And when the evidence supports the more down-to-Earth explanation, Mulder accepts such explanations, even when it means abandoning beliefs central to his whole character (as happens around Season 4-5 when evidence seems to support his sister’s abduction not happening like he always believed).
But when the mundane explanations are unsatisfactory, and fail to account for everything he has witnessed, then (in his own words)
“When convention and science offers us no answers, might we not finally turn to the fantastic as a plausibility”?
Now, I said earlier that Agent Scully does ‘finally turn to the fantastic as a plausibility’. But I think it is fair to say she is never quite as comfortable with this as Mulder is. Whereas Mulder will listen to somebody and quite clearly takes them seriously until he has evidence that what this person is claiming cannot be so, Scully tends not to take anybody seriously unless they present evidence that shows what they claim IS so. And she quite often turns her back on folks who approach them with tales of alien abductions, ghostly visitations, psychic abilities, etc. Mulder never does that. He is the perfect agnostic, open to their stories, at least until such time as evidence indicates they are fooling themselves into believing something which is not true.
So that is why Agent Mulder is the perfect skeptic. He is genuinely open to extreme possibilities. He does not prejudge and is willing to abandon former beliefs if the evidence merits such a move, even when the beliefs to be abandoned were very dear to him. He has a great intuition, and is very capable of judging the moment when conventional explanations are not good enough. He knows when the time has come to ‘finally turn to the fantastic as a plausibility’.
Posted in fun stuff | Tagged , , , | 3 Comments

Thinkers Jan 28 2014: Post-human families (with guest chairperson Zobeid Zuma)

Zobeid Zuma: okay… So!
[2014/01/28 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: how alien that must feel.
[2014/01/28 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, it did when I first stopped s tripping–wearing clothes at work?  Seemed weird.
[2014/01/28 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: A couple of weeks ago the question was, what will post-human society be like? Tonight our focus is on the most basic unit of society: the family. What will post-human families be like? Or else, what will supplant the family?
[2014/01/28 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But you get used to anything
[2014/01/28 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I wonder if the family will get supplanted–might change form; like in a Heinlein story, but supplanted?
[2014/01/28 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Depends on how you define the family, I guess. If it changes enough, then you might call it something else. :)
[2014/01/28 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Very large, what with indefinite lifespans. We could have great-great-great…and so on ad infinitum grandparents who are still alive and active members of the family.
[2014/01/28 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, the multi-generational family was the mainstay until the ’50′s.  We would just be going back to it.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: First and foremost families are economic units and reproduction units. So the future family will depend on how we reproduce and how we organize the world economically.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: If people aren’t growing old and dying, you don’t need constant reproduction to propagate the species. You can still do it, of course… resources allowing.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Families are first and foremost support systems.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: You could have an elder brother or sister who was born after you, on account of their fetus being frozen and implanted in your mother’ womb AFTER you are born.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unless we all get happily suupported by the State, there will be families
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: so are you older than them or are they older than you?
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: WB B
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, sounds again like a Heinlein story, where Venusians were often younger than their grandkids.
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Bodhi
[2014/01/28 15:38]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): crashed lol
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We noticed, Bodhi, but don’t you  Buddhists call it Enlightenment, or something?
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: As I see it… The family is a reproductive unit, and also a multual-support, um… collective, if you will. The two are linked because kids need a lot of support.
[2014/01/28 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: The idea that families are a nuturing system is a good one. They nurture and train the young. Can the state do this kind of one on one socialization? Probably not.
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s the mutual support that is critical
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, exactly.
[2014/01/28 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe we don’t have “young” anymore. Raising and educating a kid for 20 years is a highly inefficient and costly process. So maybe you can replicate people or synthesize them fully-formed instead?
[2014/01/28 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, we’re talking “post-human”. It implies leaving the limitations of a biological life cycle behind.
[2014/01/28 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, there will be a lot of pre-fab kids then.  lol
[2014/01/28 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe the post human family begins with the mapping of one’s mind, and subsequent ‘uploading’ of that mind into a separate substrate? Greg Egan imagined a ‘solipsist nation’ in which a whole virtual world was filled with copies of one person, each with their mind’s edited so they have no feeling of connection to one another.
[2014/01/28 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hmmm I wonder if it is possible to genetically change humans to develop their brains more quickly. Apparently that is what takes such a long time with child development compared to other species.
[2014/01/28 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I would think then that it wouldn’t be solipsist–you’d have the original and the copies; all different entities.
[2014/01/28 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: What was the purpose of that, I wonder? Sounds like a monoculture to me.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: well that is my interpretation of what he was going on about, Rhi. I may not have described it properly.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, don’t sell yourself short; I haven’t read Egan, but I bet he was saying exactly what you said he was; I’ve read similar speculations.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have talked in depth about personality before and have roughly concluded that it isn’t stable in any one person over time. So with clones, there is no reason to believe the people would be that similar to each other over time, mentally.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: You remember Peer Infinity? His avatar was named after the character who most desired Solispsist Nation.
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Ari (arisia.vita): lovely soft pink rabbit comes to mind :)
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I could imagine synthesizing one or two more Zobeids. That would make a nice mutually-supportive collective. I wouldn’t want to become a hermit and just be stuck with them, though.
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it (Solipsist Nation) had something to do with the complete and utter rejection of the physical world.
[2014/01/28 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: Oh btw, Extie, I was very sad to hear about the demise of the Extropia sim….. sighs
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, ‘personality?’ Maybe.  Memory is the criteria LOcke used for personal identity, and there is always the soul.  I didn’t know Peer had a basis for his name.
[2014/01/28 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, so that’s official?  HOw are you holding up, Extie?
[2014/01/28 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: He was an infinite peer?
[2014/01/28 15:45]  Ari (arisia.vita): yes, nothing left of Extropia, very sad
[2014/01/28 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Does not bother me. I did not live there or anything. Just used to visit from time to time.
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: It was nice having a sim named after me, though.
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sic Gloria Transit Mundi
[2014/01/28 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Scarp has had a few art shows there. I used to attend the DJ events there with Formatting Heliosense too.
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, again, Bodhi
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Ari (arisia.vita): It’s where I met….Extropia :)
[2014/01/28 15:46]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): sorry ya internet issues… here…
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah it was a great sim. I have lots of fond memories of it and the people I met there. Like dear Ari:))
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You can turn around, Bodhi, I’m used to being naked in front of others.
[2014/01/28 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extropia is where I first got into attending lectures at the old Sophrosyne’s Saturday Salon….
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Ari (arisia.vita): ah yes
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): This is all before my time.
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sophrosyne’s Saturday Salon?
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Ari (arisia.vita): it was great
[2014/01/28 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I take it in the 18th century sense of salon; people talked philosophy and weren’t getting their hair done.
[2014/01/28 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha, yes
[2014/01/28 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Usually interviewing a famous Second Life mover and shaker.
[2014/01/28 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Do you ever talk philosophy while getting your hair done? :)
[2014/01/28 15:48]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): ya naked matters zero to me… sall good
[2014/01/28 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Rodney!
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Rodney Handrick: Hi
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Soph used to invite people like Kim Stanley Robinson or Charles Stross or myself, and she would interview that guest and later there would be a group discussion. It was great!
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I only went to one event in that sim, but it was so overloaded and lagged that it really didn’t work for me. :(
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I usually zone out when I have my hair done.
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: hiya Rodney..
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Glad to here it, Bohdi.  That is part of the road to Enlightenment.
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: so anyway, time is ticking by..
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So one way to get a  handle on family is to ask ourselves–what’s an “extended” family?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: So… Here’s another question. Let’s say in the future we’re all fabulously wealthy, so we don’t need mutual financial support, and we all have robot servants to do our daily tasks for us… Do we need a family? Do we need at least emotional support?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Would this group count?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: If we have expanded memories, will that affect dunbar’s number?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: The more I think of the future family, I think it all depends on how the economics of the future would operate. Would there be discrete small economic cells like the family is now or would it be larger groups?
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I know I do, Zo. I would not be happy if I had to live without my sis Jamie or my partner Seren.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Economic cells… You thinking of something like a hippy commune, Art? :)
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think the family is an emotional, psychological, spiritual unit, so I don’t think it will be eliminated by a society with robots and replicators.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): ive lived in hippy communes recently
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh?
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: what was that like?
[2014/01/28 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: No Zo I’m thinking more of a small tribal village group and how those economies operate.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): it was great…
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): but not perfect… as expected
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tribes grew out of families.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): the only obstacle is ego
[2014/01/28 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The tribes of Israel, for instance–all started by one of the sons of Abraham.
[2014/01/28 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: A huge obstacle in my case;)
[2014/01/28 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hippy commune is a kind of tribal group I guess.
[2014/01/28 15:52]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): naked beach goings and drum circles… very haha
[2014/01/28 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is if the tribes of Israel actually existed. There is no historicity for them.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, oh, sure there is; unless you just want to exclude all the histories that mention them, all the monuments, documents, etc. as “tainted,” i.e., in consistent with atheism.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: If we assume the goal of transhumanism is to amplify the positive and reduce the negative (preferably to zero) then maybe posthumanity will be MORE focused on building family ties than we are. Not as if they have to be apart in order to go out and do a job, after all.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: To me, “tribal” implies an us-versus-them mentality, where members look out for one another but are callous (if not hostile) towards outsiders.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They’ve found artifacts for one in one of the “stans,” there was a tribe airlifted by the Israeli Air Force from Ethopia.  Other historians aside from Hebrew mention them.
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not sure of transhumanism would have a goal
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And yes, Zo, gypsies are like that.
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes it does, Rhi.
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: One could argue that the social advancement of mankind has largely been based on seeing ourselves are part of larger and larger groups…
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, depends on the variety–the one I hear most discussion, where we are all immortal and plugged into an AI, , strikes me as anti-any small group
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ‘Childhoods’ End’ or the Borg
[2014/01/28 15:55]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): is it weird if one person is on mic here…
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: I think Jehovah’s Witnesses are like that too, Rhi. :)
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Well..It has an aim, which is to develop scitech which enables each of us to achieve become all we can be, however we choose to define that (and provided nobody else is harmed by our choices).
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yeah, they try to be tribal
[2014/01/28 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And they believe all the non-believers will be their slaves in Heaven.
[2014/01/28 15:56]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): lol
[2014/01/28 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: No you can use mic. I will just not hear you, on account of having voice disabled:)
[2014/01/28 15:56]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): ah
[2014/01/28 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But anyone can join the tribe.  Which raises the question–what are the boundaries of membership here
[2014/01/28 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some small tribal communities, when studied, define families in quite a different was than Western nuclear families are defined. For example the actual birth mother of a child has little to do with the rearing of the child, that task being done by an Aunt or Uncle.
[2014/01/28 15:57]  Rodney Handrick: I’m fascinated by the desire of people to want to go to a “heaven”…
[2014/01/28 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, that does change the dynamic.  No Oedipus Complex, for one thing
[2014/01/28 15:57]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): why would one need to go anywhere for that
[2014/01/28 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rodney, me too; I settle for an occasional visit to a Disney theme park.
[2014/01/28 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Dogs. People often consider dogs to be not just pets but members of the family. Maybe some would, if they could, engineer a dog’s brain to make them more intelligent, able to speak and stuff. Furries could become actual real live creatures and part of the extended family unity!
[2014/01/28 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: unit
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now *that* I could get behind.
[2014/01/28 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: So in the future when reproduction is a very rare event, would a family bee needed for that?
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Now that’s interesting, Extie…
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I intend to genetically modify a rabbit to be bipedal and have pink fur. Now, what will I name it?
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I hve an appartment above Rosalyn’s care facility; my new dog knew within a couple of days who lived there and who was just visiting, or didn’t belong.
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I know that’s relevant somehow.
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: I suspect we’ll have a lot of gray areas and different classifications for people, non-people, semi-people…
[2014/01/28 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: digital people:)
[2014/01/28 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We already have that–people who only exist online.
[2014/01/28 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I know, I am one.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: so are you all, only some of you perhaps do not realise it yet;)
[2014/01/28 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: When I think of family I think of people that I have to deal with whether I like them or not, sort of a cultural requirement. But in reality what do cousins I never see or never knew well to start with really mean to me? Virtually nothing.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Me too; I have my own credit card, Facebook account, and what more do you need to be real?
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Second Life: Ian Mondrian is online.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In fact, I’m probably more real, by modern standards, than my paratar.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: I know that feeling, Art.
[2014/01/28 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Home is where, if you have to go to it, they have to take you in?”
[2014/01/28 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Some of we transhumanists think we will, in the future, share this planet with an alien intelligent species: Robots gifted with strong AI. Now, what would ‘family’ mean for that race of beings?
[2014/01/28 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: does it mean ANYTHING?
[2014/01/28 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you think of how much the family economic unit is needed in today’s culture, it is bigger than first assumed. In my world full support until I was 18 then relied on for loans, used cars, home downpayment, and a fall back position if it all falls apart.
[2014/01/28 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: It depends on how the AI works, I guess? We don’t have a lot to base speculation of robot psychology on.
[2014/01/28 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My father raped me when I was 11; my mother was never there for me; my ‘family’ are people I am not related to–like Rosalyn, who took me in when I was homeless, and now I care for her.
[2014/01/28 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: If we have to resort to brain reverse engineering, the robots may need family and a social circle just as we do.
[2014/01/28 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, they might, or they might base their decisions on rules and algoritms–like R. Daneel Olivaw.
[2014/01/28 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: A key question for future AI is whether discrete beings would exist or if all would be part of a larger entity. If the beings are discrete, they would change in different ways from each other. If one, the changes would be for all.
[2014/01/28 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: I always figured we’d have two classes of robots… a worker class and a “real people personality” class, to use the Sirius Cybernetics term.
[2014/01/28 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Your plastic pal who’s fun to be with!
[2014/01/28 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/01/28 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Also, if you believe David Levy, there will be robots designed to offer emotional and/or sexual satisfaction for those who seek it and cannot find it in human relationships. So that could be another way in which posthuman family is changed: Inter-species relationship.
[2014/01/28 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, I think you’re right.  I was reading where most physics grad. students don’t blieve we’ll hve robots for a couple of century–and I thought, what if IBM does create AI, and the AI does have telemetric connection to all those robots on wheels that currently do things like patrol malls?
[2014/01/28 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: If there is no qualitative difference between emotional and sexual satisfaction from a robot or a person. Wouldn’t we consider them to be the same?
[2014/01/28 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: I think you just described Robopocalypse, Rhi. (I have it on my Kindle!)
[2014/01/28 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Heh, I’ve read an SF story for each of those scenarios that people keep bring up..  Robots were threatening the human race because guys liked to fuck the robot-women more than real ones.
[2014/01/28 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Seeing as we have plenty of robots now, they must have meant something else. Like, robots with general intelligence to rival or surpass us.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, they meant “real” robots.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Like in Asimov.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Asimovian robots
[2014/01/28 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/01/28 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: jinx
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me locks eyes with Art and giggles
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Charles Stross’s ‘Saturn’s Children’ explored that theme, Rhi.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: People do have a tendency to anthropomorphize things…. And there is researching into making robots illicit emotional responses and interact better with people. So…
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if I leave now, I may be able to grab a bite to  eat before I head to work.
[2014/01/28 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have to rethink what constitues personality if the difference is indistinguishable.
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So take care all; great topic, Zo!
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Thanks Rhi!
[2014/01/28 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Later Rhi
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You’re welcome, Zo
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Later Art
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Take care, Ari, Extie
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Glad you could make it, Rodney.  Oh, he’s away.
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Au revoir, people; we will meet again–and soon.
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me waves and poofs
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rodney Handrick: No, just listening
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Quite often, when a bomb-disposal robot gets blown up, the team are not happy to get a replacement, but instead want it fixed. It is because they consider the robot a member of the team and so do not consider another robot to be the same. Even though, by any practical standards, it is!
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Second Life: Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Rodney Handrick: Have to go now…bye
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2014/01/28 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is interesting Extie
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Ari (arisia.vita): bye rodney
[2014/01/28 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Seeya Rodney
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems to me that we’re looking at a chaotic future with many different types and categories of beings. So… Maybe “family” is something that people cobble together however works for them. Maybe they vary wildly, in the post-human future?
[2014/01/28 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some people have an emotional relationship to their Automobiles too.
[2014/01/28 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Or maybe we’ll go through an exciting phase of experimentation before the new traditions eventually shake out. :)
[2014/01/28 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Like Rhi said earlier, her ‘family’ is made up of parts she pieced together throughout her life.
[2014/01/28 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Zo. The family tree will be affected by extreme longevity, the possible introduction of new species, mind uploading, and perhaps even relativistic time travel.
[2014/01/28 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: So maybe the future equivalent of the family would be a group we cobble together for nuturing, social or economic purposes.
[2014/01/28 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes… The traditional family didn’t work for her, so she put together a substitute and made it work. I like that. (despite the distressing need for it)
[2014/01/28 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Obviously my sister is not a sister in any biological sense. We just felt in our hearts that we were sisters, and since we both agree on that, we are.
[2014/01/28 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: You know how Sl is, if you can imagine it, you make it reality.
[2014/01/28 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: (well sometimes it takes some technical skill as well)
[2014/01/28 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think a long term group of friends constitutes a group that fulfills the needs that in other times and cultures was similar to a family or a genetically related group.
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: So… Maybe I’ll have an extended family of a couple of Zobeid clones, a couple of robot servants, a genetically engineered furry snugglebunny…
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Second Life: Divalii is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Second Life: Divalii is online.
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: if you did, would you consider yourself posthuman, Zo?
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: errr?
[2014/01/28 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think a group also needs someone to bring in surprises or new ideas that you don’t control… no?
[2014/01/28 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see that scenario coming about unless we’ve crossed a lot of those thresholds first.
[2014/01/28 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: If you lived in a world where you could easily obtain everything you just mentioned, would YOU be so radically changed by this as to have become posthuman yourself?
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): Alas, rl calls and I need to leave a few minutes early. It was great being with you all and you did a great job Zo.
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): hope to see you all again soon
[2014/01/28 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Have a great evening Ari
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: We are dropping like flies…
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): be well and happy
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye dear
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: *huggggs*
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, Art… That’s why I said, I couldn’t see myself becoming a hermit and just being sealed up in the commune with my clones, robots, etc. That’s not the goal.
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): bye for a bit
[2014/01/28 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: We need to have Gywn here to tell us all that we are wrong…. heh
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah where is Gwynie?
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah… I wonder that too.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: She must be working
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Either that or computer problems.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Gosh, SL was horrid on Sunday!
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is that why I got booted? haha
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: No it just hates you.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually would be nice for travel, if I had another Zobeid to hold down the fort while I was gone.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Feed the cat, etc. :/
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: aha! I knew it!
[2014/01/28 16:22]  Second Life: Ari (arisia.vita) is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t have Rod Humble to kick around anymore…. sigh
[2014/01/28 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have to hand it to Rodvik though, the performance of my SL experience is much improved in the last two years.
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo, if you were created in order to live for but a short while in order to fulfill some requirement of primary Zo…how would you feel about that?
[2014/01/28 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: bitter
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: who is in charge now, then? I did hear Botgirl is campaigning to be CEO…
[2014/01/28 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Like any slave
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Not the way I really imagined it working, Extie. But the minds *ought* to be synced or merged in some way.
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is online.
[2014/01/28 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Botgirl would get lost in philosophical speculation too easily…. heh
[2014/01/28 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Presumably, though, copy-Zo’s mind would be edited so that she welcomes her lot in life?
[2014/01/28 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: That sounds like a downgrade. :p
[2014/01/28 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: or, as Zo just said, she means something else entirely.
[2014/01/28 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is an interesting point to consider, when is a robot a slave?
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: when it desires freedom.
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d rather say they’re all equal and they are kept syncronized in some way, so their memories are merged (periodically, I guess) and they all keep the same personality.
[2014/01/28 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: So when it has self consciousness?
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: yes.
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: in other words, probably never.
[2014/01/28 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: When I said before that I imagined servant robots and RPP robots, I almost said “slave robots” instead of servant.
[2014/01/28 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the term robot actually means ;servant’ in some language?
[2014/01/28 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: I think you’re right…
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: from that old play ‘Rossum;s Universal Robots’.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: This discussion makes me think of the Spielberg movie A.I. Lots of interesting ideas there.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Second Life: Sylfie Del Vanima (sylfie.minogue) is online.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Economically speaking, we really should have robots that only work for the benefit of others.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well we have lots of war robots at the moment too.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: But it would be nice to also have some that are “real people” with desires of their own. So then you have to distinguish the two.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I did laugh when the post-human robots seek to bring back a human, so they can ask him or her the meaning of life. If it were me they brought back I would be like ‘hey, why are you asking ME? I thought YOU guys were supposed to figure that out!’.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: The uncanny valley
[2014/01/28 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha!
[2014/01/28 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: yes
[2014/01/28 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: That movie is much better on second viewing
[2014/01/28 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Magicthighs and Vroomfondle will build a Great Computer to figure out the meaning of life!
[2014/01/28 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: vroomfondle… heh
[2014/01/28 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sex robots would have figured out that the meaning of life was great sex….
[2014/01/28 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: I did think it a bit dubious that the robotic team are given the challenge ‘make a robot which can love’ and they just go and do it like it is not particularly challenging.
[2014/01/28 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s all about gaming the rules, Extie.
[2014/01/28 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘oh right. Ok well we will just make an emotion chip I guess…’
[2014/01/28 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Love is complete acceptance with a desire to approve whatever behavior manifests itself.
[2014/01/28 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Worse case, you could create a chip that simulates emotional states… hormones, everything… Might not be the most efficient way to do it.
[2014/01/28 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Jude Law was easily my favourite character in AI. Him, and maybe that teddy…
[2014/01/28 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: We’ve already bred dogs for that, so why not burn it into silicon too? :/
[2014/01/28 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Over the last months I have definitely concluded that AI would need both positive and negative feedback of some kind included in order to have any motivations.
[2014/01/28 16:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Jude Law is kind of hunky, I’ll admit.
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Surely that teddy is not too far in the future? I want one! I would lose it on purpose so it could bug people with its incessant ‘are you taking me to Extie? Have you seen Extie? I am looking for Extie….’
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, we have gone our time, have we not?
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: yes we have..
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Poem!
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: btw zo can I post this discussion on me blog?
[2014/01/28 16:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting topic. I think it makes me think about what a family is. And what functions a family has.
[2014/01/28 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Don’t look at me. You know I’m poetry-deaf. Or something.
[2014/01/28 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Sure you can, Extie.
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Thinkers Jan 21 2014: Will transhumanism kick off in the far east?

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers..
[2014/01/21 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Which..
[2014/01/21 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: As Gwyn remembered..
[2014/01/21 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Is to do with China..
[2014/01/21 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Only, I expanded it a bit to the Far East.
[2014/01/21 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: So..
[2014/01/21 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: The topic today is…..
[2014/01/21 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Is the Far East poised to become the transhuman centre of the world?
[2014/01/21 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2014/01/21 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Why would one suspect this, I wonder?
[2014/01/21 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I could say, some bits of the far east are already transhguman but not in the way you think, Extie ;)
[2014/01/21 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Because China is far less squeamish about cloning, for one thing.
[2014/01/21 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahh I see
[2014/01/21 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Are they really?
[2014/01/21 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: And South Korea and Japan are far more comfortable with robots and AI.
[2014/01/21 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They do already have a population issue; why wouldn’t they be squeamish? :)
[2014/01/21 15:33]  Second Life: Divalii is online.
[2014/01/21 15:33]  Ari (arisia.vita): welcome Roxie
[2014/01/21 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I just heard that they’re going to ease up on the one-child law that they’ve had for such a long time…
[2014/01/21 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
[2014/01/21 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Hiya Roxie:)
[2014/01/21 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are indeed.
[2014/01/21 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Roxie!
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: A BBC news report informed me that china is really pushing ahead in cloning.
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Roxie Marten: howdy all
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, robotics is certainly not an “issue” in Japan.
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Also..
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: In what way??
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Those robotic pets are… eerie
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What exactly are they going to clone, Extie?
[2014/01/21 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: A lot of Chinese prosperity has been derived from the one child thing….
[2014/01/21 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Hugo de Garis believed he had the best shot at building his artilect if he moved to China.
[2014/01/21 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: what is an artilect?
[2014/01/21 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: A super AI.
[2014/01/21 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Artificial Intellect.
[2014/01/21 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: I hear a lot of assertions… Where’s the beef? :/
[2014/01/21 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Named after me I see….
[2014/01/21 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Beef? Only in Chop Suey
[2014/01/21 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: hah.
[2014/01/21 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Art
[2014/01/21 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Even without ‘beef’ the sheer number of people and the fast pace at which China is developing makes it a contender.
[2014/01/21 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the advantage of China in unscrupulous technological experiments is that it’s not a democracy, so if you’re pushing the boundaries on tech without concerns with human rights, China is the place to be :)
[2014/01/21 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the beef is in Argentina and Australia …just for the record.
[2014/01/21 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, after their economical collapse, things might change… ;)
[2014/01/21 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, if it keeps developing exactly the way it has been. Sort of like in the 1980s everybody wanted to learn Japanese because Japan was soon going to own the world. I think we all know how that worked out.
[2014/01/21 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They were beaten by Germany? :)
[2014/01/21 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: would it make a difference if it did kick off in China?
[2014/01/21 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: But China is a house of cards. Or a powder keg. Or maybe a house of carts built on a powder keg!
[2014/01/21 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: A lot of China’s success comes from completely ignoring patent law.
[2014/01/21 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh… I agree, Zo
[2014/01/21 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I keep saying we need to get rid of patents here too. :p
[2014/01/21 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: much to Seren’s disgust, I would imagine.
[2014/01/21 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that’s true, Art :) Intellectual Property, pfft. Stealing ideas is the best thing there is.
[2014/01/21 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: hey Violet:0
[2014/01/21 15:38]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Exti, all :)
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: this is our topic..
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Is the Far East poised to become the transhuman centre of the world?
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, I’m sarcastic today, after reading a long rant from an activist against IP rights
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: But anyhow… Usually a pretty sure way to mis-predict the future is to take whatever’s happening now and extrapolate it.
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo, good point ;)
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: well it is either that or a total stab in the dark.
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Second Life: luisa (luisa.bourgoin) is offline.
[2014/01/21 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do think that Japan/Korea will continue to lead in robotics, though
[2014/01/21 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: And Taiwan
[2014/01/21 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just from a purely economic perspective
[2014/01/21 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Taiwan, sure
[2014/01/21 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: No, it doesn’t have to be a stab in the dark. You just have to take into account the emergent factors.
[2014/01/21 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: The Far East is a hodgepodge. It’s like trying to lump “the Americas” together, with the USA and Guatemala in the same category.
[2014/01/21 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It comes to my mind that cheap bionic implants from China would be a threat to public health worldwide… we can’t even be sure about their plastics today…
[2014/01/21 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Zo is right.
[2014/01/21 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re quite right indeed, Zo
[2014/01/21 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Some people have had their iPads explode cuz they bought cheapo rechargers. Probably from China.
[2014/01/21 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean you’ve got Vietnam… Which has become known as source of the world’s worst paper *and* the world’s worst coffee.
[2014/01/21 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I got cheap electric water bottles from China that blow up fuses at home every time they’re turned OFF.
[2014/01/21 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: They could combine the two if they made paper cups to serve the coffee in.
[2014/01/21 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Haha Zo, now that’s interesting!
[2014/01/21 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Extie!
[2014/01/21 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: They could sell it all to Starbucks
[2014/01/21 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nobody would notice
[2014/01/21 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I have a much more intriguing question… why doesn’t China innovate?
[2014/01/21 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think China is going to implode, but I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t go through some big upheavals.
[2014/01/21 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Because copying is easier
[2014/01/21 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, Japan, Taiwan, Korea…. all of them styarted to sell cheap spin-offs
[2014/01/21 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I did hear china,,or maybe Japan,,as an aging problem. They might address that through agressively pursuing SENS.
[2014/01/21 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Why doesn’t China innovate? They *try* to, but the results so far have been… hmm… lackluster….
[2014/01/21 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then they became engineers
[2014/01/21 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why doesn’t China do the same?
[2014/01/21 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And then they became innovators
[2014/01/21 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Japan and Korea haven’t really been huge innovators, have they?
[2014/01/21 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed Zo. But their industrial output and population is bigger than the rest of the Far East put together. Sheer numbers should provide at least with some technological breakthrough here and there
[2014/01/21 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, outside of robot dogs, etc….
[2014/01/21 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that innovation requires elevation of the individual over the group as the ideal.
[2014/01/21 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: well what country IS a big innovator?
[2014/01/21 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: The US, Germany, UK, France,
[2014/01/21 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: The Japanese invent some really goofy stuff. They’re capable of thinking outside the box… but somehow the goofy stuff is either *too* goofy or it never is commercialized. Or both.
[2014/01/21 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. You should go to a Japanese electronic store and look at their gadgets, Zo. 99% of them do never hit the West. Their point is that they’re too revolutionary for us conservative Westerners
[2014/01/21 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, but they SELL the goofy things
[2014/01/21 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Ha!
[2014/01/21 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In millions
[2014/01/21 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just not outside Japan :)
[2014/01/21 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember when everyone was griping about how the Japanese had all the groovy smart phones that we couldn’t get in the USA. Then Apple came in and took over.
[2014/01/21 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Before that it was Nokia.
[2014/01/21 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: indeed, the only difference between China and Japan/Korea/Taiwan etc. is that — society and politics
[2014/01/21 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: LIke animae laptops and backbacks, right?
[2014/01/21 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They still have those groovy smartphones, but they run in Japanese ;)
[2014/01/21 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No market for them in the West.
[2014/01/21 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m actually quite a fan of South Korea. IMHO they’ve rivaled Japan in most respects, and many have been slow to recognize that.
[2014/01/21 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I love my Korean Smartphone (Samsung)
[2014/01/21 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (good example, Art=
[2014/01/21 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: The problem with South Korea is… North Korea.
[2014/01/21 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: So what transhuman breakthrough would you move to China in order to be an early adopter of?
[2014/01/21 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Apple = 99% Samsung components with 1% Reality Distortion Field :)
[2014/01/21 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anything that requires chopping people’s members off, Extie
[2014/01/21 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/01/21 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: China is fine with that.
[2014/01/21 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Why did you cross your legs, Ari?
[2014/01/21 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I find it hard to imagine anything that would lure me into moving to China.
[2014/01/21 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: transhuman corrupt businessmen would work well there.
[2014/01/21 15:48]  Ari (arisia.vita): :)
[2014/01/21 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh indeed.
[2014/01/21 15:49]  Ari (arisia.vita): why did you look dear? :)
[2014/01/21 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The trouble is that it’s hard (I hesitate with the word ‘impossible’) for a Westerner to set up a shop in China :)
[2014/01/21 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not too keen on moving out of Texas, even. But you know, we do have a cloning program at Texas A&M. :)
[2014/01/21 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Where else would I look? Us girls are hardly going to worry about losing our members.
[2014/01/21 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh
[2014/01/21 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Transhumans would be the best ever at nepotism, right? haha
[2014/01/21 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes
[2014/01/21 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: what is nepotism?
[2014/01/21 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Giving breaks to your relatives
[2014/01/21 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: WIkipedia: “Nepotism is favoritism granted in politics or business to relatives.”
[2014/01/21 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Like when I kick Ari off this sofa when Jamie comes?
[2014/01/21 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: There’s room in between, no?
[2014/01/21 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-)
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway… I think that if what you’re looking for, Extie, is cheap bionics
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Transhumanism could allow for some ultra-nepotism in which your entire company is staffed by uploaded copies of you.
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Ari (arisia.vita): you don’t need to kick, for you will find I have already moved
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: then China would certainly be a good place to produce them
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh. Transnepotism.
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I just don’t see any particular cultural or social leaning toward transhumanism in China or Japan… There are individual things you can point to that are intriguing, but the same can be said fo America and Europe, etc.
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh. These sharp heels have trained you better than that bell trained Pavlov’s dog.
[2014/01/21 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In Japan, bionic enhancements could be a catchy trend :)
[2014/01/21 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the Chinese are used to working as groups more than Westerners, so that might be a somewhat transhuman trait… right?
[2014/01/21 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: *pats your hand* there there I do not mean it:))
[2014/01/21 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: I wouldn’t assume that, Art.
[2014/01/21 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: nor I.
[2014/01/21 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Never heard of Communism?
[2014/01/21 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wouldn’t assume either, Art…— neither the Chinese are used to work as groups, nor are transhumanists :)
[2014/01/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: China certainly has forgotten it.
[2014/01/21 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ever seen a Chinese factory lately?
[2014/01/21 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I saw a documentary and this Japanese businessman passed a robot and he nodded to it, as you would a companion. I wondered if people in the West would treat it thus?
[2014/01/21 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Many of our innovations have come from obsessive eccentric loners. Committees rarely come out with brilliance.
[2014/01/21 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Never, Extie :) We’re simple not so polite :)
[2014/01/21 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A committe’s group IQ is like the one of a mob: take the lowest IQ of the group and divide it by the total amount of members.
[2014/01/21 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: If it was a sex bot, they would pat it on the bum as they passed, I’m sure.
[2014/01/21 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: He did not even seem all that struck with the fact a ROBOT!! was wandering the halls he was like …oh, it is you. Hi.
[2014/01/21 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: I talk to my cats, that is sort of the same thing, no?
[2014/01/21 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: No.
[2014/01/21 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: oh
[2014/01/21 15:56]  Second Life: Sylfie Del Vanima (sylfie.minogue) is online.
[2014/01/21 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: So yeah… Chinese (and Japanese) *do* tend to work together better in cohesive groups, but I see that as something just as likely to hold them back as to move them forward.
[2014/01/21 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Your cat is not a machine.
[2014/01/21 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Far East has a slight bias towards what constitutes a sentient being. Hmm. That would explain why some would find it easier to give citizens’ rights to an AI or a robot.
[2014/01/21 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Something else that could hold them back, Gwyn. :)
[2014/01/21 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Could be :)
[2014/01/21 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: What does sentient mean? Self conscious?
[2014/01/21 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah I think so.
[2014/01/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, but I’ve learned that there is a difference between what it’s meant around here and what most of the Far East thinks about it.
[2014/01/21 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: They’re both pretty nearly nonsense terms, IMHO.
[2014/01/21 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: But I think most people think it means ‘really smart at a wide range of things’.
[2014/01/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the West, yes
[2014/01/21 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the East it would mean for many: “having a mind”
[2014/01/21 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Careless ways of saying “intelligent” ever since the word “intelligent” fell out of fashion.
[2014/01/21 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Are ants sentient? I think they are very robotic.
[2014/01/21 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: well the truth is we simply do not know.
[2014/01/21 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Not knowing never stopped up before! haha
[2014/01/21 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: It could be an ant looks at you and wonders ‘is that thing sentient?’.
[2014/01/21 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it’s a fair assumption to claim that most Westerners would see ants as not being sentient.
[2014/01/21 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: What about Praying Mantises?
[2014/01/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends to whom they pray :)
[2014/01/21 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some people keep them as pets
[2014/01/21 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh dear. Thinkers has wondered into the philosophical minefield that is…..dum dum dummmm….consciousness!
[2014/01/21 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some eat them, Art
[2014/01/21 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Not much body there, just a lot of crunch….
[2014/01/21 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: I think at least some of the Japanese attraction to robots grows out of the vending machine effect. (And vending machines are hugely popular there, last I heard.) You can perform a simple mechanical interaction without any kind of social judgment or ritual.
[2014/01/21 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Well, my original point is that a clever chatbot would at least raise some doubts in the minds of Japanese people, if you’d ask them: “would you give a chatbot citizen’s rights?”
[2014/01/21 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Vending machine doesn’t expect you to make small talk, doesn’t care if your hair is messed up.
[2014/01/21 16:01]  Second Life: Ivy Sunkiller is offline.
[2014/01/21 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. That’s a curious point of view, Zo
[2014/01/21 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody should invent a vending machine that vends a vending machine. and THAT vends a vending machine…and the final one vends a coin to put in the first to start allll over again.
[2014/01/21 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Make a robot too human-like, and that advantage goes away!
[2014/01/21 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But probably correct. I don’t know any Japanese, so I can’t ask them :)
[2014/01/21 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: So they like machines because they are anti cultural?
[2014/01/21 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a very curious point of view!
[2014/01/21 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: There was a youtube documentary ‘will work for free’ which says vending machines are going to proliferate in the west soon as well.
[2014/01/21 16:02]  Second Life: Annie (annielove.welles) is online.
[2014/01/21 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: We also have this trend of young people becoming recluses and just hiding in their homes and interacting only through the internet.
[2014/01/21 16:02]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Not anti-cultural so much as a-social, I think is the idea
[2014/01/21 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: I thought my teddy bear was sentient when I was a child…
[2014/01/21 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t they already?
[2014/01/21 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Like a 24/7 store that is a vending machine.
[2014/01/21 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Was it Teddy Ruxpin? Cuz that was just a tape recorder in its back.
[2014/01/21 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My teddy bear thought that I was sentient when was a child… he was wrong.
[2014/01/21 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: heheh!
[2014/01/21 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: so that trend doesn’t exist in the Far East?
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No Japanese hackers hiding in caves?
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Ehhh? I was talking about Japan. That’s where it happens.
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead they go out and get drunk together? :)
[2014/01/21 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: So robots are fine….. until they get too close to not being robots?
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It very much does…it’s called hikikomori in Japan
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought as much, Violet :)
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): “Social withdrawal syndrome,” or thereabouts
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: the uncanny valley effect strikes again!
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the term Otaku is pretty much an ultra-recluse who lives on the Internet, no?
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
[2014/01/21 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps the issue here is how widespread the phenomenum is.
[2014/01/21 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *on
[2014/01/21 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh is that that virtual star?
[2014/01/21 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: phenomenuminoninaminon
[2014/01/21 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I am never playing Art at Scrabble.
[2014/01/21 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/01/21 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m sure every society has a few hermits, but it seems to have become a phenomenon in Japan.
[2014/01/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Art :)
[2014/01/21 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW I am going to finish early today. 4:15.
[2014/01/21 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: WHAT?????
[2014/01/21 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: And I typed that without looking at the preceding few lines. Really!
[2014/01/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. WIkipedia says there are 700.000 cases. Can we have statistics for other countries?
[2014/01/21 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Zo
[2014/01/21 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: This is only intuition, speculation… But I can’t help thinking Japanese culture places a lot of pressure on people. It’s very conformist, and of course the population density is very high.
[2014/01/21 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Agoraphobia is easily dealt with by internet activity. That and UPS and Chinese take out.
[2014/01/21 16:08]  Second Life: Annie (annielove.welles) is offline.
[2014/01/21 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Whether that will push them towards a robotic-transhumanist future, I have no idea.
[2014/01/21 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, I have read that about Japanese education, Zo.
[2014/01/21 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agoraphobia in the US. 3.2 million people.
[2014/01/21 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Non conformity is discouraged
[2014/01/21 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wellllllll yes but the youth rebel
[2014/01/21 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Or at least is WAS in the past. I think things have changed radically in Japan in the last decade.
[2014/01/21 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW… I got curious about MSG and bought a bottle. Never tasted the pure stuff before. Put a little on my tongue… “Wow! It tastes like instant ramen!”
[2014/01/21 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha Zo
[2014/01/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My roomie’s mother was always astonished to see how pretty much every youth on teh streets in Tokyo dresses after their favourite anime character; so for them cosplay is a lifestyle, not really just something you do occasionally
[2014/01/21 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Wow, that’s interesting.
[2014/01/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What’s “MSG”?
[2014/01/21 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Monosodium glutamate.
[2014/01/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: AH lol
[2014/01/21 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stay away from it :)=
[2014/01/21 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: It is not just that a lot of Japanese videogame fighting girls wear school uniforms and she mistook ordinary schoolgirls for cosplay fanatics?
[2014/01/21 16:11]  Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2014/01/21 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Most of it is economic, I think–not enough opportunities, not enough options…but the possible links between hkikomori and autism/pervasive developmental disorders is worth looking at, too…
[2014/01/21 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: The best dressed and most fashionable women I see on the streets are in half of the cases, Japanese. I wonder what accounts for that?
[2014/01/21 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s not as bad as it sounds. It’s just a seaweed extract that was discovered in the 1950s when everything scientific and chemical-sounding was good.
[2014/01/21 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that she can still distinguish between an uniform and a cosplay character :9 She took some pictures….
[2014/01/21 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: No, earlier than that… but same principle. :)
[2014/01/21 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Wish my hair was like an oriental woman’s. You know, all black with that lovely gloss?
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you can buy it lol
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: No you cannot.
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I have looked.
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Second Life: Divalii is offline.
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: /me bought her SL hair from a Japanese shop. :/
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: China’s might not be selling bionics, but you can get cheap human hair :)
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Zero Style?
[2014/01/21 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m also a lover of black hair as you might have noticed. However I like mine messy! haha
[2014/01/21 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: :)
[2014/01/21 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: The Japanese seem to be lovers of pink hair… and blue… and green… and purple…
[2014/01/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most definitely :)
[2014/01/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, at least a certain age range
[2014/01/21 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have seen aqua and purple hair on women that looks very beautiful and artistic.
[2014/01/21 16:13]  Second Life: Divalii is online.
[2014/01/21 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I mainly like black hair in SL because it better conceals the flaws of prim construction.
[2014/01/21 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The fun thing about Japan (and again I’m using my roomie’s mother as a source) is that they’re absolutely crazy about anything Western, lol
[2014/01/21 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh, that might be a good reason, Zo!
[2014/01/21 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Depends on the costume. Jamie put on a costume the other day, and I told her she should color her hair blue or purple.
[2014/01/21 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: From a few chats here in SL, I believe that the Chinese also have the same fixation
[2014/01/21 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, Zo your hair is awesome today
[2014/01/21 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo looks great!
[2014/01/21 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Ohh, thank you! :D
[2014/01/21 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: one minute left!
[2014/01/21 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Will china become transhuman centre of the world?
[2014/01/21 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think so,
[2014/01/21 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: The myth of SL is everyone goes blonde, but in this group today Most of us are black! heh
[2014/01/21 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Possible, but I wouldn’t be too inclined to bet that way.
[2014/01/21 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I think that bionics might become fashionable in Japan and SK well before they are introduced in the West
[2014/01/21 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Violet is not:) Or Gwyn.
[2014/01/21 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: note th4e work most
[2014/01/21 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: the
[2014/01/21 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: 5/7
[2014/01/21 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up.
Posted in after thinkers | Tagged , | Leave a comment

Thinkers January 14 2014: Post-human civilization.

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2014/01/14 15:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s begin at the middle
[2014/01/14 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is………
[2014/01/14 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: What would a post-human civilization look like?
[2014/01/14 15:31]  Ari (arisia.vita): I like the term Dreamwalker
[2014/01/14 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: No jobs for starters!
[2014/01/14 15:32]  Roxie Marten: put my thinkers tag on, havn’t wore it in ages
[2014/01/14 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Assuming autonomous beings?
[2014/01/14 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Of course.
[2014/01/14 15:32]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i wonder what a civilisation witout civil look like
[2014/01/14 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: If we knew what it would look like, wouldn’t we already have it?
[2014/01/14 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Eek what kind of question might that be? We’d have to be post-human to answer!
[2014/01/14 15:32]  Second Life: Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) is online.
[2014/01/14 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Death would be much less present.
[2014/01/14 15:33]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): does that question mean, witout any human at all?
[2014/01/14 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone would have more time to live their lives.
[2014/01/14 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s like questioning, “What would life after death look like?” We’d have to be there to experience it.
[2014/01/14 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we can imagine what a post.human civilisation looks like, then it won’t be post-human. It will only be the projection of our very human wishes and desires.
[2014/01/14 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we should assume there are humans. It is just a civilisation more advanced than ours. A next-gen civilization if you will.
[2014/01/14 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: You could put off till tomorrow most everything…. heh.
[2014/01/14 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, a *next-gen* civilisation…
[2014/01/14 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s another story :)
[2014/01/14 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah.
[2014/01/14 15:34]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): near chernobyl its like post -human and the nature has grow a lot and the diversity per suqare feeet, is augmented
[2014/01/14 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: well that is the one I want to discuss.
[2014/01/14 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: By pure chance, I happened to stumble across “In the Year 2889″ by Jules Verne today. That was an… amusing read.
[2014/01/14 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think extending one’s life would enable multiple careers over its span.
[2014/01/14 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So long as there are humans in it, it will be still be moved by fame, reputation, power/money/greed, etc
[2014/01/14 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So with the same motivations, it will look pretty much the same.
[2014/01/14 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: By post-human I mean people have transcended the shackles of the human condition, not that humans have been wiped out.
[2014/01/14 15:35]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): or like in mad max, all road side killers
[2014/01/14 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m guessing that given enough time everyone would be able to meet the famous and therefore be demystified about them.
[2014/01/14 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, anyone in the Renaissance would definitely understand the basic motivations of *our* current civilisation.
[2014/01/14 15:36]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): aw thanks for clarifying Extropia
[2014/01/14 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There would be the “special famous”; the ones that you cannot meet, Art :)
[2014/01/14 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I had trouble deciding whether Verne was describing a utopia or a dystopia.
[2014/01/14 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: NP:)
[2014/01/14 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I haven’t read it, so I have no idea :)
[2014/01/14 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: why did you have such trouble, Zo?
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One’s utopia is the next person’s dystopia. So, all hail Extropia!
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): mmm,i wonder if transcandance can ever be speread out or only belong to an elite
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: A lot of what he described has already happened… although not exactly the *way* he envisioned….
[2014/01/14 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: There would probably be more sex in general.
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Art
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: even more? wow.
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess it depends on how widely the means of transcendence can spread, Alaya.
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Extie was positing, “beyond the shackles of human condition”
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): yes i guess so
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I’m afraid it would be a society without sex
[2014/01/14 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: But the attitude that we’re going to completely conquer nature, really seems like madness from today’s viewpoint.
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we shift atoms today
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: “Let’s melt the ice caps! What a capital idea!”
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we have done so since the 1980s
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Why? Sex is good. We keep the good aspects of being human and get rid of the bad.
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): that is an interesting event that ocured Zobeid
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: sex also causes stress and anxiety ;) so the idea that sex is “always good” is just a misconception :)
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): but why?
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s good to most :)
[2014/01/14 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Is for me:)
[2014/01/14 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: “There may be a civilization hiding on the far side of the moon. Well, clearly we must turn the moon around so we can contact them!”
[2014/01/14 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still, in that case, you’re saying that post-humans will still be shackled by SOME aspects of the human condition
[2014/01/14 15:39]  Roxie Marten: maybe they don’t want to know us
[2014/01/14 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think there would be more Hedonism in general. Health and extra time would lead to that.
[2014/01/14 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: “We must create cloud cover over the city at all times, so we can project advertisements onto them!”
[2014/01/14 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: Iron Sky? :)
[2014/01/14 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that’s a capital idea!
[2014/01/14 15:39]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i better stick to communication on earth, , as far as i am concern , the moon distance is too far for me
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah. We just have to agree on what is bad, what is good, and build a society which rids us of the former and provides universal access to the latter.
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure if it was intended as satire or not.
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): trancandance oddosnt rime with money
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): oddly*
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): but dosnt exclude it
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Extie, in your post-human society, what aspects of human shackes and conditions will you wish to keep, and why? :) Also, if you still keep them, why are you positing it’s POST-humanity, and not merely Humanity+? :)
[2014/01/14 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Can you imagine a snooty golf club where the members clique lasted for hundreds of years? Too horrible to contemplate.
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Roxie Marten: what would be the reason that the world is “post human” I am going to presume we finnaly figured out a way to off selfs by screwing the environment
[2014/01/14 15:40]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): what if money is an ingredient of transcandance instead
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t play golf. Or plan to.
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Money is just a convenient way of shopping.
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): what if it has always been
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: You should, Good game, golf.
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Roxie Marten: golf is just an obsession by men to put things in holes
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahahaha Roxie!
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): the transcandant money, to enter the spleen
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: gosh, I would have NEVER thought of THAT
[2014/01/14 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Roxie, I’m assuming we have gotten complete control of the genetic code and no longer rely only on human genes.
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): the new line of viability
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is too naive
[2014/01/14 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: My dad used to ridicule golfers. So… I couldn’t pick up the game without thinking of him. :(
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: we need a bit more, since it’s now a well-established fact that “genes are not everything” :)
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: What do I want to keep? Sex. Childraising. Work (but not jobs!)..probably more if I thought hard enough.
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Roxie Marten: “Golf is a good walk, spoiled” Mark Twain
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pfft. That’s too “current human” for my tastes, Extie
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you keep sex, you will keep power struggles
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And desire, competition, jealousy
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: attachment, anger
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah.
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): reproduction,,, is only an artefact
[2014/01/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Looks too much to what we have today!
[2014/01/14 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well I can’t imagine any future human successors giving up the pleasures of the flesh.
[2014/01/14 15:43]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): one use it when needed only
[2014/01/14 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Gosh in your ideal world there is no this, no that..no NOTHING.
[2014/01/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely not in MY world, no!
[2014/01/14 15:43]  Roxie Marten: Post human utopia. The roaches inherited the earth, they don’t want it
[2014/01/14 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: The roaches would then play roach golf.
[2014/01/14 15:43]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): the bad guy will henerit the world,
[2014/01/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … with human heads…
[2014/01/14 15:43]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): anyone tha tisnt identify as part of the crew
[2014/01/14 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Roach motel. They check in…they do not check out.
[2014/01/14 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Ultimately, I assume we’re going interstellar. So every kind of society will probably be tried somewhere in our galaxy. :)
[2014/01/14 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh like in Peter Hamilton’s Nights’s Dawn Trilogy?
[2014/01/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, my suggestion is a society where we can have sex without the need for jealousy, power struggles, attachment, etc. But that requires a LOT of mind-changing!
[2014/01/14 15:44]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i assume they are immunised, mor ethan human against h1n1
[2014/01/14 15:45]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): but do they survive, minus 50
[2014/01/14 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking of the changes caused by massively increased life spans. I think changing careers often would be the norm.
[2014/01/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What, isn’t it the norm TODAY?*
[2014/01/14 15:45]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): changing careeers is part of it indeed
[2014/01/14 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: If you could easily obtain a sexbot in the image of Scarlett Johansen or Brad Pitt or (insert your fantasy here) would that make sexual jealousy less of a problem?
[2014/01/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes it would, Extie
[2014/01/14 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Because we can’t afford to go back to college for 12 years at age 62
[2014/01/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because one thing is a bot
[2014/01/14 15:45]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe the navy and air force , will be less represented
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well I guess post-human civilisation provides that.
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other is having someone in flesh & blood that does, indeed, look like Scarlett, Brad, etc
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll give you an example!
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL!
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can look exactly like we want!
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is STILL jealousy, power struggles etc around sex partners.
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why?
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: I can have my Zo-clone?
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes! SL is our experimental post-human society.
[2014/01/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because we can switch bodies but we aren’t doing anything about our minds.
[2014/01/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yuck,Extie
[2014/01/14 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: If degenerative diseases are eliminated, then we will only die of accidents. So that might lead to too highly cautious people.
[2014/01/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This experimental post-human society looks exactly the same as our regular society.
[2014/01/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So why should be believe that a “next-gen” society will be different?
[2014/01/14 15:47]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): ok if there is sex, witout kids, because the world isnt build for kids to go around, than, its will go extincts
[2014/01/14 15:47]  Second Life: Naring’Nari (joey.aboma) is offline.
[2014/01/14 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo. How about, whatever we can dream of, and is physically possible, post-human civilisation makes reality. So yes you can clone yourself.
[2014/01/14 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: If we’re talking really post-human, then we can be duplicated, backed up, etc. Even accidental death would be mostly avoided, I should think.
[2014/01/14 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I think it would be great to have about… three of me.
[2014/01/14 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “society” undergoes evolution. Of course a Post-society will at first apperar to me all-to-similar
[2014/01/14 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: The future society will be presumed to have solved the problems of overpopulation and ecological destruction. Otherwise, there could be no post humans.
[2014/01/14 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Three is a magic number!
[2014/01/14 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I would think so, Art…
[2014/01/14 15:49]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): there will be only one seasons, winsprifallsummer
[2014/01/14 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: So we should expect post-human civilisation to be built on sustainable energy supplies.
[2014/01/14 15:49]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): one long kinds of wwet frekinslish storm kind of weather
[2014/01/14 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: There would need to be some way to keep all the clones synchronized, lest they become individuals and go their own ways.
[2014/01/14 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that seasonal diversity would be appreciated. Since one wouldn’t have to live anywhere they didn’t want to.
[2014/01/14 15:50]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): /me shoveling away the thought of 3 Zos “the concept of Childhood of course hints onto a post-mortem world”
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: One big brain you all share, Zo?
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yuck.
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Probably not…
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: *kicks gwyn*
[2014/01/14 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: When one lives a thousand years, one must need a lot of things to do and places to see.
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like a post-mortem world
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: what is that?
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Just a way to keep them all loosely on the same page, so to speak.
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe people will be mor e nomade than before
[2014/01/14 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead of living just a few years, and spending the rest of eternity dead, you just enjoy that eternity being dead :)
[2014/01/14 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All one needs is to train awareness while one’s dead.
[2014/01/14 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Easy-peasy.
[2014/01/14 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-)
[2014/01/14 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we can safely say our world holds more than enough wonder to keep us amused for a mere millenia, Art. We just need to open up access to it.
[2014/01/14 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Imagine all people being as sexually ‘interested’ as your average 17-24 year old. That is why there would be more sex…. haha
[2014/01/14 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, jokes besides, my whole issue about the “post-human society” is that it’s not “post” anything. It’s just humans with superpowers, but still motivated by the same things.
[2014/01/14 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: The dead do not enjoy. Enjoyment is an experience and death is the end of experience.
[2014/01/14 15:52]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): another difficult thought would be that beeing dead just means beeing dead. extinct. expired. up to recycling.
[2014/01/14 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can only say that if you were dead once, Extie :)
[2014/01/14 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: That and some knowledge of neuroscience.
[2014/01/14 15:52]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): apparently, post, , human, define, transcending dual mode
[2014/01/14 15:53]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): 16-49 year old. to be preciese
[2014/01/14 15:53]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): meaning, not this and that , 2 sided visions,
[2014/01/14 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe, luisa. Some funny British author liked to think that dead people are having so much fun that they never bother to get back to talk to us, it would be soooo broing hehe
[2014/01/14 15:53]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): but multiple degree perspective
[2014/01/14 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Well… Our current AI efforts don’t seem to lead in the direction of human-like minds. They may lead to something very different and alien… But who knows what they’ll want?
[2014/01/14 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m assuming post human to mean having gone beyond the restraints imposed by natural reproduction and genetics in some way.
[2014/01/14 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alaya: I would say that “post-human” would be “beyond human motivations”, yec
[2014/01/14 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *yes
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not the restraints imposed by our own minds, Art?
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Some say it is not a good idea to embue AI with ‘wants’ and ‘needs’ beyond a desire to serve.
[2014/01/14 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t assume post human to mean robotic.
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither do I.
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I assume, as said, “beyond human motivations”
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, but somebody somewhere will do it, Extie. People are like that. :/
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): the world beyong, , always refere to , over,, things ar e over.. but maybe the with or witouth option, would be less of of a perspective
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: It certainly does not mean current conceptions of robots, Clunky machines.
[2014/01/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Beyond human tendencies, beyond all that
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ANything less than that is merely “humans with superpowers”
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): we will have old money, museum
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: I hope they do it, Zo. I do not want to stay as an avatar. I want to be a sentient physical being. Robotics is the way to achieve that.
[2014/01/14 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you look at your own motivations, most of them come down to your bodies chemical reward systems in some way.
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is how WE look like to, say, renaissance
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): we we imagine how that the money war wasnt a real war
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Our bodies shape a whole lot of thinking, Art.
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: the mere fact that I can *observe* that means that I can decide NOT to be driven by that.
[2014/01/14 15:55]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): but people were terrified, of the drop off
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: The way I see it, Gwyn… We have to start with humanity as we know it and extrapolate from there, with “super powers”. It may be an inadequate analysis, but it’s what we’ve got to work with.
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I couldn’ notice what you just said, I would have no way of having a *choice* to follow my bodily chemicals :)
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Just like Jules Verne…. As weird as his story seems, much of it was also prophetic.
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can do so much more, Zo
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Humans with superpowers is definitely nice,
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): considering the new opeitons,
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: What else can we do??
[2014/01/14 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Think of what you want and why. What is the motivation… or reward of any human desire?
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): options*
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: what new options?
[2014/01/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but humans not motivated by ‘chemical things’ as Art put it is so much more interesting
[2014/01/14 15:57]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): of a dual mode transcenting as, “with or without perspective”
[2014/01/14 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m just asking what constitutes a motivation?
[2014/01/14 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: not sure I follow.
[2014/01/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: Habit.
[2014/01/14 15:57]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): that would abolish the drop off fearfullness
[2014/01/14 15:57]  Second Life: Deebs (deebrane.string) is offline.
[2014/01/14 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fear is a good example! It’s a physical sensation
[2014/01/14 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Adrenaline rush and all that
[2014/01/14 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: I think whatever aids self-actualization is motivation.
[2014/01/14 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we have tehg ability to face our fears and do a non-pre-programmed reaction to fear, if we sih
[2014/01/14 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Another thing to consider is the old yin/yang of it all. One can’t define pleasure without understanding non pleasure etc. etc. etc.
[2014/01/14 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *wish
[2014/01/14 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: we all want to become best at what we are gifted at. For me that is writing, for Art that is..art.
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: For Ari, that is being nice:)
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-)
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Ari (arisia.vita): ty
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, he’s an expert being nice!
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s an art form too!
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: *Gives Ari’s hand a little squeeze* Always.
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): so they would be, that the nobel price might be atrubuted to those who are showing the way to change our sturcture of making money
[2014/01/14 15:59]  Second Life: Deebs (deebrane.string) is online.
[2014/01/14 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: so are you positing a radical change in the nature of money as one of the things to expect?
[2014/01/14 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Visual art is engaging with the complexity and/or uniqueness of the world. Seeing things in a new way. I would classify it as a form of learning
[2014/01/14 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: makes sense.
[2014/01/14 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh! What will learning be like?
[2014/01/14 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Instant downloading of knowledge and skills, as seen in The Matrix?
[2014/01/14 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: We have that. It’s Wikipedia. :)
[2014/01/14 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: If we are all robots by then, why not?
[2014/01/14 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Parroting information is not the same as understanding it, Zo.
[2014/01/14 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: If I ask somebody something and they cut and paste from Wikipedia, that tells me little of what THEY know about the subject.
[2014/01/14 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, it’s a start… And it has already changed education.
[2014/01/14 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: If you cannot explain in your own words, you do not understand.
[2014/01/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If people’s minds won’t change, there will still be money. Even if the things it buys are quite different.
[2014/01/14 16:03]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): aw we would be celebrationg the glorious day of the 3d, world videos, as the roots of what we didnt considered as a whole new way of considere literatures as part of the space and physics related mean.
[2014/01/14 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s all about the big picture, knowing what to type into the search field!
[2014/01/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
[2014/01/14 16:04]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): roles and rules.. are were, there, to b e chalenged
[2014/01/14 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we have talked about this subject before, that what constitues a self is memory of that self having experiences that are separate from the experiences which are had by others.
[2014/01/14 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I sometimes wonder if we have yet to be totally familiar with the fact that so much information is available at a mere search query.
[2014/01/14 16:04]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): e-challenged
[2014/01/14 16:04]  Second Life: Sylfie Del Vanima (sylfie.minogue) is online.
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Technology is undistinguishable from magic for the e-challenged.
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Like, people always ask me for links to this, or to explain that, and it can all be found using Google, so why ask ME?
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: memories, habits, attitudes and opinions…
[2014/01/14 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t think we consider wikipedia to be part of ourselves, but we do consider our interaction with information on wikipedia as part of ourselves.
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No wonder witches are more popular these days
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): why would it look magic?
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because you don’t ask how it works.
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You don’t need to.
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It just works.
[2014/01/14 16:05]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): its a diferent type of story telling
[2014/01/14 16:06]  Ari (arisia.vita): Because you are better looking than Google Exti :)
[2014/01/14 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember once in an online discussion I quoted from one of my older books… And the guy was astonished to realize that, yes, there’s still info that’s not available online.
[2014/01/14 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I think it’s because you give better answers, Extie. Data is not the same as information.
[2014/01/14 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: If you saw somebody make a stone levitate, some might call that magic. But it might actually be some anti-gravity tech like a tractor beam you are using:)
[2014/01/14 16:06]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): but imply carrying a new emotional regiustor
[2014/01/14 16:06]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): register
[2014/01/14 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: So….. I’m thinking that the biggest difference with post human civilization would be how individuals dealt with much longer life spans.
[2014/01/14 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: The dead tree version was the magic. :)
[2014/01/14 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Extie :) If you see two people having a conversation using a mystical device, you might assume it’s telepathy, but it’s just a mobile phone…
[2014/01/14 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Science can read minds now. Crudely, but they are getting better. That is another example of once-magic become technological reality. ESP, telekenisis, remote-viewing, resurrection of the dead, you name it..
[2014/01/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: true. We still have a lot of information that is NOT searchable.
[2014/01/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s true, Extie1
[2014/01/14 16:08]  Second Life: Deebs (deebrane.string) is offline.
[2014/01/14 16:08]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): in which it would take two people with some genes , to transmit the new emotional structures
[2014/01/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: indeed, and pretty much all the rest would be exactly the same as nowadays.
[2014/01/14 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m all in favor of longer life spans. (My clones will be too!)
[2014/01/14 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Even the axiom that extinction is forever is not true anymore. Biotech has brought extinct animals back to life. More magic, now real.
[2014/01/14 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: nope, just a gene splicer and a virus to carry it into you.
[2014/01/14 16:09]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol
[2014/01/14 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay! I want a pet Dodo!
[2014/01/14 16:09]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): with more crispy and spicey new emotional range of expressing
[2014/01/14 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Bring back the carrier pidgeon!
[2014/01/14 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Could be tricky, We need the genome.
[2014/01/14 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dang.
[2014/01/14 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What about a pet dinosaur? :)
[2014/01/14 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I think that is on the cards, Art. Well, the passenger pigeon.
[2014/01/14 16:10]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe the trigering os natural genes,, stimulation will b e found than
[2014/01/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What do you mean, “Jurassic Park was just a movie”?!?!
[2014/01/14 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think they have enough DNA to clone a wooly mammoth now because they found them frozen in glaciers.
[2014/01/14 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: You can have one already, Gwyn. Birds are a species of dinosaur:)
[2014/01/14 16:10]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i hopw we dont chang e into disonausorus, meanwhile.. by accident
[2014/01/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True true. When we eat chicken, we’re driving more dinosaurs to extinction.
[2014/01/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mammals FTW!
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think it could happen by accident, Alaya.
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): as a negative side, cancers, and mutations, accidents could be more frequents
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Long life and abundance also implies a great decline in reproduction… Has anyone thought about that?
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Max More did, Zo.
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): not really by accident, indeed, but error , .. throught manipulation
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hardly possible, Alaya. If we exchange genes with a dinosaur for, say, getting dinosaur eyes or ears… we will get human eyes and ears instead. Genetics don’t work as bad SF movies wish us to believe it works :)
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I meant anyone here. :)
[2014/01/14 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Besides me, even…
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): as bad?
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Not so far. But it makes historical sense.
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can’t “manipulate” the human genome to turn us into dinosaurs.
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: why not?
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We might get tails, sure, but they would be primate tails (and skinny)
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2014/01/14 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is the smartest birt a Crow, an owl or a parrot?
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): well, just to look like, not to really be mixed genes, with them
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because it’s not only genetics that determine our bodies, Extie :)
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most of it comes from embyology
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh.
[2014/01/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A lot comes from other places where information is stored outside DNA
[2014/01/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome to the 21st century — where we found out that DNA just plays a minor role in hereditarity
[2014/01/14 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): this why i brought the idea of a trigguering , rather than, a manipulation, also.. to avoid eror
[2014/01/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It won’t work,
[2014/01/14 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol
[2014/01/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To get us dinosaur parts, we’d need to be born in a dinosaur egg,
[2014/01/14 16:13]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): mm, mmm trying to keep the idea of a probability
[2014/01/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we’re not compatible with that.
[2014/01/14 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Well I do not want to be a dinosaur anyway:)
[2014/01/14 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, no, sorry. The best we can do is to regain some characteristics from our closest ancestors in the tree
[2014/01/14 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, sure, we could get tails
[2014/01/14 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And more body hair (yuck)
[2014/01/14 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And smaller brains
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Much more than that is sadly imposisble,
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu are not selling this to me, Gwyn.
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, to Alaya :)
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): why would we considere extra terrestians.. a s always human and also horribla asa dinosorus , unfinished , unevoluated, or anything like a foetuses, and with an horrible mentality
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: We do have a lot of DNA from other creatures that we can use. You don’t have to stick with just what’s lurking in the human genome.
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry Zo, it doesn’t work like that!
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you cut and paste the DNA for a dinosaur eye,
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): if it coudnt be possible that that concention of a beeing, could be,,, near human or post humans, if they are our future
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and put it into human DNA,
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the result is a human eye.
[2014/01/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not a dinosaur eye!
[2014/01/14 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Doesn’t make sense.
[2014/01/14 16:16]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): conception*
[2014/01/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, it does, and it has been quite well tested
[2014/01/14 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: That is true if you use hox-genes, which only instruct where to grow an eye.
[2014/01/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: back in the 1990s lol
[2014/01/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the rest would be garbage, Extie
[2014/01/14 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Random factoid: Eyes evolve separately in many different phylums.
[2014/01/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. genes that we cannot do anything with
[2014/01/14 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: evolved
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Art, evolution is really keen on designing eyes.
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, so it would be pointless to get DNA from an eye from a different trree branch,
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it would be just junk DNA for us
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t believe it.
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol it’s not a question of belief, fortunately :)
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: At least not if it was a line close to us… like cats, for example.
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just something that you can put to test in a lab :)
[2014/01/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would work yes
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: We don’t really have the technology to test something like that yet.
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you’d wish for a characteristic that a common ancestor of both cats and humans might have,
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: say, uh, fur
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’d be able to get that, yes
[2014/01/14 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: The current theory is that the great expansion of animal diversity that happened about 540 million years ago happened because of the first development of the eye….
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Zo, so far all we can do is to cut & paste eye DNA from some species to others and test the results :)
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: But why could you not take a human ovum, remove the genome, put in dino genome and get a brachiosaur?
[2014/01/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It works up to mammals, though
[2014/01/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, that would PROBABLY work but it would be EXTREMELY hard to do.
[2014/01/14 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: You would have to identify all the DNA related to the eye, and I don’t even think we’re that far along yet.
[2014/01/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes for simple species
[2014/01/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not for complex ones.
[2014/01/14 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: It doesn’t all appear on the same page with a label saying “eye” at the top!
[2014/01/14 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is no dinosaur dna in the real world. That is just Jurrassic Park. There is however recent extinct animal DNA
[2014/01/14 16:20]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): wow with the platform of e= motionnal developement with the 3d environement , neutral where the information could b e shared, on certain liberation of, rl- conflict, , offering an opportunity of a justice project related as well
[2014/01/14 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: (I think Gwyn is confusing the work done on hox-genes for some universal truth about eyes, Zo)
[2014/01/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look at how our cloning technology is so error-prone, and we’re talking about the *same* species. We need thousands of tries to get just one that works. And that with *sheep*. With humans it’s even more complex!
[2014/01/14 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: not sure I follow, Alaya.
[2014/01/14 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s difficult, but it’s solvable… if there was incentive to tackle the problem. But nobody wants to touch it these days.
[2014/01/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I might, Extie. But there is no evidence to support the contrary :)
[2014/01/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What you mean is that it works, even if it’s hard to do, Zo. And hard means expensive.
[2014/01/14 16:21]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe , my idea came to late , separated from the previous idea. sorry
[2014/01/14 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not believe that if you remove all the instructions for making a human eye and replace it with dino-eye instructions, you still get a human eye.
[2014/01/14 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Hard-and-expensive things become easy-and-cheap with experience and competition, but we don’t have that going now.
[2014/01/14 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: What IS going on right now is the introduction of all types of genes into various plants….
[2014/01/14 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Current bio college students routinely do frog cloning as part of their training. It’s boring, routine work,. nothing exciting about it. It becomes interesting (and WAY harder) with mammals.
[2014/01/14 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: That would be like the genome somehow thinking ‘well this is not right. I am supposed to make a human eye here’. How can it?
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re assuming that teh DNA defines everything.
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is what we used to think in the 1990s.
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now we know it doesn’t. Not by far.
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *context* is fundamental,
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: hmmm..maybe I am. Not an expert in this matter you see.
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that context is given by embryology
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: as well as some ‘marker proteins’ which we still don’t understand well yet
[2014/01/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But in one, two decades at most,
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Is a dino embryo really that different?
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): stimulation is affecting genes alot more than, just gene , once they are trigguered
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’ll see that DNA has actually just a minor role in hereditarity
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: chemically speaking, oh yes!
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): there isa pre gene … formation
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Minor? Surely you exaggerate. :/
[2014/01/14 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Right now what they do is to physically shoot genes into other dna and see what happens.
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, well, a major one :)
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not the only one :)
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, it has four limbs, a backbone, a brain. Not all that different.
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol now we would be back to guns
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Anyhow we’ve strayed….
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): genes guns,
[2014/01/14 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh!
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be nice that it were THAT simple, Extie.
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): its a dangerous armement there
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Shall we get back to the topic for the last 5 mins?
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: In a post-human society, I’m sure we’ll figure out how to engineer life forms, difficult or not. :)
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s probable, yes
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, we will know how to enhance humans
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s much simpler
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): if the tendencies are maintaining themself, than its the next gun, eradicating genetically, so humans woudnt be able to even considere to be human at all
[2014/01/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, we will prolong lifespans
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we will be healthier
[2014/01/14 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: We will engineer perfect bums for all. But then we will have to decide what perfect is, and if SL is any measure, it is all over the place. haha
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha!
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we will grow our own failed organs easily, with 3D printers… no, wait, we already do that today
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Art :)
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: could be that engineered lifeforms outnumber natural ones. Hey, maybe post-humans populate the other planets around us with artificial life designed to thrive in their environments?
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, I think we will be physically superhumans
[2014/01/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But mentally as bad as today :)
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): cretivity and art, as a research full disciplinary
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So there will be as much difference from that next-gen society and ours,
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: not even a bit better, Gwyn?
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: as the difference between today and the Renaissance
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nope. If you don’t change people’s minds, why should things be “better”?
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They will still motiviated by the same things.
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Second Life: Ian Mondrian is offline.
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d love to see other planets used to create new cultures.
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i dont imagine other planets , i cant go there
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s the focus that will change
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: But I am a Civ player. :)
[2014/01/14 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: We are better in many ways than our ancestors., More peaceful more tolerant. So why not expect post-humans to be more angelic than we are?
[2014/01/14 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t think it would take that long for a medieval intellectual to understand our current world. We haven’t advances as far as we think….
[2014/01/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We might not get angry for losing a job, because robots will do everything;: but we mighty fight because someone has better clones than we have, and we will desire to have what they have — jealousy :)
[2014/01/14 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s not safe to extrapolate current trends into the future, Extie.
[2014/01/14 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu know, I never played Civilisation. Shame, sounds like a great game.
[2014/01/14 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: You can get it on Steam now.
[2014/01/14 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: There is no other way to predict the future, though.
[2014/01/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I agree. They will spot differences, sure. For example, the much longer lifespan, the better health (and the universal health system), better food. But they will still see our main motivations are the same!
[2014/01/14 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Nah, take up too much of my life.
[2014/01/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I *think* we might be moderately more peaceful,
[2014/01/14 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: one minute left..will this next gen civilsation be better? Worse? or just different?
[2014/01/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: since we learned to channel aggression into football and economics.
[2014/01/14 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: I think of it as useful training for that inevitable time when I’ll have a country of my own to run! :D
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say it would be slightly better, Extie, but not fundamentally different.
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Yay Zo! You dream big!
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Zo
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll vote for you!
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: better!
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ll say better…
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: More stable, anyhow.
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Ari (arisia.vita): better
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Better health, better food, better living conditions, better apartments, more leisure time. All that is an improvement
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: I vote for the land to be called Zumaria.
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahah
[2014/01/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zumaria is a GREAT name!
[2014/01/14 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I like that.
[2014/01/14 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So do I!
[2014/01/14 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: that settles it, then.
[2014/01/14 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I emigrate to Zumaria?
[2014/01/14 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up. Next week…probably something to do with China.
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