Thinkers June 17 2014: THE WAR METAPHOR

Extropia DaSilva: Today…oo kissy!…today our topic is…
[2014/06/17 15:33] Seren (serendipity.seraph): what’s up zo?
[2014/06/17 15:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, what’s wrong, Zo?
[2014/06/17 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: THE WAR METAPHOR: ‘the war on drugs’, ‘the war on terrorism’. Quite often, we see war used as a metaphor for actions being taken to eradicate something deemed undesirable. But when is this metaphor useful and when is it not?
[2014/06/17 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: My eye has been bugging me.
[2014/06/17 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Zo. I *tried* to have a different experience with SL today, but it was hoping too much that LL fixed a bug that merely bothers a few thousands of users….
[2014/06/17 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, nice topic. Very tircky.
[2014/06/17 15:34] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, what’s your problem, Gwyn?
[2014/06/17 15:34] Seren (serendipity.seraph): hey ari, zo, gwyn, meta, rhi
[2014/06/17 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: first off, is it ever useful?
[2014/06/17 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: AS chance would have it, I was just thinking about something like this topic recently.
[2014/06/17 15:34] Metafire Horsley: Hi Rhi
[2014/06/17 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: I like this pose, darling.
[2014/06/17 15:35] Seren (serendipity.seraph): yay
[2014/06/17 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Rhi: since LL moved the Mac codebase to use Cocoa, it made chat impossible to use. Not only public chat. Anything that requires typing. This only affects a few thousands or tens of thousands of Mac users, so LL cannot bother with it β€” neither the Firestorm team bothers with it, although at least they aclkowledge that the problem does, in fact, exist)
[2014/06/17 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: Most of time when War On X is invoked, it’s basically fraudulent.
[2014/06/17 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: War on XY!
[2014/06/17 15:36] Seren (serendipity.seraph): well on war on drugs it is no one’s business what any adult chooses to consume so using “war” metaphor or not is beside the point.
[2014/06/17 15:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, it’s an attempt to get us mobilized and in a frenzy; but it usually means we’re going to fail at it.
[2014/06/17 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: Fraudulent!
[2014/06/17 15:36] Metafire Horsley: Is that because frenzies are stupid maybe? πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 15:37] Almitra Vella: but a rose by any other name
[2014/06/17 15:37] Seren (serendipity.seraph): exactly. “We are at war so don’t complain whatever outrageous thing we demand of you”
[2014/06/17 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: can you think of an example where the metaphor is useful?
[2014/06/17 15:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): War on Poverty=poverty increased; war on drug=drug use increased. But it’s supposed to reconcile us to the restrictions on freedom involved.
[2014/06/17 15:37] Seren (serendipity.seraph): war on war πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:37] Metafire Horsley: War on language πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 15:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, it’s usefully politically, if you agree there’s a social problem that needs addressing–and I thought of saying that, Seren, until I remembered that was used for WWI.
[2014/06/17 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: If we ever really had a “War on Drugs”, there would be armed jets patrolling the border, drone stikes on crack houses, etc.
[2014/06/17 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. Maybe it is because when democracies talk about ‘war’ it means that governments are ALLOWED to suspend personal freedoms β€” ‘temporarily’?
[2014/06/17 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: I think the language of “The War on X” is used as an excuse to spend large amounts of public monies as well as cut back on accountability of methods used to further the goal.
[2014/06/17 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m thinking, for instance, of the US’s Patriot Act, or however it’s called
[2014/06/17 15:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I think that’s part of it.
[2014/06/17 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: how about the ‘war on cancer’? Is it legitimate to say we are organising forces to battle this enemy?
[2014/06/17 15:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I just call it the Enabling Act, but then I think of it as the department of fatherland security too.
[2014/06/17 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good counter-example.
[2014/06/17 15:39] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that’s a good example
[2014/06/17 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Rhi…. who gets ‘enabled’ by it, anyway?
[2014/06/17 15:39] Seren (serendipity.seraph): calling something so profoundly anti-american “The Patriot Act” makes my blood boil
[2014/06/17 15:39] ArtCrash Exonar: Is there a war on cancer? I haven’t heard that term used by any official entities.
[2014/06/17 15:39] Almitra Vella: I wouldn’t mind it being called a war if it was treated that way, everyone on the same team
[2014/06/17 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry! I didn’t mean to sound offensive!
[2014/06/17 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: If we ever really had a “War on Poverty” it would involve drafting people into social service, rationing, war bonds, etc. It would require people to change their lifestyles and make real sacrifices to achieve victory.
[2014/06/17 15:39] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, at least its counter is called the Freedom ACt.
[2014/06/17 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Almitra: allegedly on a war you have at least TWO teams πŸ˜€
[2014/06/17 15:39] Extropia DaSilva: Of course, the medical establishment does not really want to cure anything, since management of disease is more profitable.
[2014/06/17 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welllllll
[2014/06/17 15:40] Almitra Vella: Yes, Zo, that’s what I mean, we only dilute our langugage
[2014/06/17 15:40] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I believe they’re rationing cynicism now, so be careful you don’t exceed your limit.
[2014/06/17 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahahah Rhi
[2014/06/17 15:40] Zobeid Zuma: Even the “War on Terror” didn’t ask for sacrifice from most of the general public.
[2014/06/17 15:40] Seren (serendipity.seraph): war on aging? not sure anti-aging would benefit by such especially as calling it a “war” seems to mean government should run it and take whatever they wan from us to do so.
[2014/06/17 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting that i’m finding it hard to conceive of a
[2014/06/17 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: The general public did end up sacrificing certain liberties.
[2014/06/17 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Extie. Remember, someone who lives FAR LONGER because they don’t get cancer, will get MANY OTHER DISEASES for an extended period of time. So, ultimately, fighting deadly diseases is a good’war’, from the perspective of medical economics πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: We barely even wage war on the battlefield anymore.
[2014/06/17 15:41] Metafire Horsley: Does it require personification of X if you declare “War on X”?
[2014/06/17 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is borrowing some extra cynism from Extie today
[2014/06/17 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: I charge compound interest, Gwyn.
[2014/06/17 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh oh.
[2014/06/17 15:41] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Sure it did Zo. We were expected and are expected to put up with TSA, NSA mass spying, “security letters” and so on.
[2014/06/17 15:41] Almitra Vella: /me shrugs, “It’s Tuesday” (grins)
[2014/06/17 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: γ‹‘
[2014/06/17 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: You are already more in debt than Zimbabwe.
[2014/06/17 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my.
[2014/06/17 15:41] Almitra Vella: hahaha
[2014/06/17 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting that i’m finding it hard to conceive of a ‘War On’ phrase to include funding of say astronomical or geological research.
[2014/06/17 15:42] Seren (serendipity.seraph): my darling is cynical? never noticed.
[2014/06/17 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: Well, those are things most people don’t see. Aside from the TSA. :p
[2014/06/17 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: *kisses Seren*
[2014/06/17 15:42] Almitra Vella: “ignorance about space”
[2014/06/17 15:42] Almitra Vella: the war on that
[2014/06/17 15:42] Metafire Horsley: You want a War on Ignorance? πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can’t fight the ‘War on Stupidity’ which is a shame. There wouldn’t be anyone left.
[2014/06/17 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe right, Metafire, same thought here.
[2014/06/17 15:42] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zimbabwe is in debt? I guess that’s what happens when you declare war on talent.
[2014/06/17 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: I suggest a War on War.
[2014/06/17 15:42] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I did first
[2014/06/17 15:42] Seren (serendipity.seraph): πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, we had that, World War I, remember?
[2014/06/17 15:43] Metafire Horsley: War on metaphors! ;9
[2014/06/17 15:43] Almitra Vella: I’d prefer to stop the war on language
[2014/06/17 15:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The war to end all wars.
[2014/06/17 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even more interesting, we technically don’t have ‘wars’ any more β€” in the strictly legal sense.
[2014/06/17 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: eh?
[2014/06/17 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are uh… ‘peace missions’
[2014/06/17 15:43] Almitra Vella: I thought that was the reason for releasing the gitmo five?
[2014/06/17 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: or conflicts
[2014/06/17 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: I think that was metaphorical. “War to End All Wars” = “Mother of All Battles”
[2014/06/17 15:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, and why do you think that is? It’s just as much trouble to get a resolution to take all means necessary as it is to get a declaration of war. No, police actions, Gwyn.
[2014/06/17 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That way, you don’t need to get it approved at the national parliament, which is the case in most countries.
[2014/06/17 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, police actions, yes
[2014/06/17 15:44] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking here that the term War is meant to move the priority to the front of the line in terms of funding and support. As traditionally War trumped all other human activities.
[2014/06/17 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: I guess the 100 years war did not really last for a century?
[2014/06/17 15:44] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But a resolutuon is approval by the national parliament, Gwyn.
[2014/06/17 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My own country is partially decomissioning the armed forces. They are shrunk to ahandful of people. By contrast, our National Guard β€” technically a police force β€” has grown beyond everything. And, of course, they’re trained and armed just like the army used to be.
[2014/06/17 15:44] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Maybe it sounds less agressive. “We reslolve to kick your ass, but we’re not at war with you”
[2014/06/17 15:45] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Now we just sent some drones wherever we want and maybe a bomber or two.
[2014/06/17 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, but in most cases, a’police action’ is merely an executive procedure, which doesn’t call for the same political engagement as a ‘war’ does.
[2014/06/17 15:45] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wars have never been won with dragons, but with soldiers. Old Man Lannister.
[2014/06/17 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: so I guess the metaphor is useful in terms of a campaign to let people know experts are being assembled and budgets are being spent and Something IS Being Done about X?
[2014/06/17 15:45] Almitra Vella: saying they are armed makes me think Switzerland
[2014/06/17 15:45] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Dragons! Way cooler than drones.
[2014/06/17 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: γ‹‘
[2014/06/17 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s useful politically.
[2014/06/17 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, it’s pure demagogy πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:46] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, and that we really mean it. Really.
[2014/06/17 15:46] ArtCrash Exonar: This topic is making me think we should be more judicious with the use of the war word, as I’m thinking it obscures the specifics of what is being attempted.
[2014/06/17 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, art,.
[2014/06/17 15:46] Seren (serendipity.seraph): hmm. I wonder what it would take to make a drone pass for a dragon
[2014/06/17 15:46] Metafire Horsley: Just make some cool drones that are called “Dragon”. Drone style level increased by 300% πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 15:46] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I absolutely agree with that. What’s wrong with me. I’m absolutely agreeing with you.
[2014/06/17 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: If it looked like a dragon, maybe?
[2014/06/17 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me of ‘The 3 Formulas of Professor Sato’…. there was a ‘dragon drone’ in it
[2014/06/17 15:46] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Meta, right
[2014/06/17 15:46] Almitra Vella: /me laughs and repeats, “drone style level”
[2014/06/17 15:46] ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/06/17 15:46] Zobeid Zuma: Well, lots of words get watered down. “War” has taken a beating, it seems.
[2014/06/17 15:47] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I was thinking of Game of Thrones, as dragons were like aerial strikes, the cities looked like London after the blitz, except more medieval.
[2014/06/17 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If it looks like a dragon, breathes fire like a dragon, and flies like a dragon, is it a dragon? No! It’s a drone!
[2014/06/17 15:47] Metafire Horsley: As has “terrorism”. Nowadays everything is terrorism
[2014/06/17 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: My essays drag on.
[2014/06/17 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: People keep talking about that show, I may have to watch it someday.
[2014/06/17 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Metafire, again, because you fight terrorism with ‘police forces’
[2014/06/17 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: back when I used to write essays..
[2014/06/17 15:47] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Meta, there is a legal definition of terrorism. It’s the use of force to influence US policy. Which would make voting an act of terrorism, if you think about it.
[2014/06/17 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Extie, you’re in ‘bad pun mode’ now πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Haha Rhi!!!!!!
[2014/06/17 15:48] Seren (serendipity.seraph): So it is only US?
[2014/06/17 15:48] Extropia DaSilva: I wondered who would spot that.
[2014/06/17 15:48] Almitra Vella: “apparently”
[2014/06/17 15:48] Seren (serendipity.seraph): what is initiation of force about voting?
[2014/06/17 15:48] ArtCrash Exonar: I think the worst use of the term in the recent past is the “War on Drugs’ which has been used to actually wage war and escalate the situation. It doesn’t allow for any action in the drug debate that doesn’t involved eradication….
[2014/06/17 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: US and its satellite countries, I’d say
[2014/06/17 15:48] Seren (serendipity.seraph): people have silly ideas of what force is
[2014/06/17 15:48] Metafire Horsley: Nah, half the world just copies the language of the US government.
[2014/06/17 15:49] Almitra Vella: seems very sad to believe that
[2014/06/17 15:49] Metafire Horsley: The USA are (still) very influential after all.
[2014/06/17 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, Metafire. So true.
[2014/06/17 15:49] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, the “War on Drugs” has been an unmitigated disaster. I think maybe the end is in sight, though. Or at least the beginning of the end.
[2014/06/17 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘If it works for the US; it should work for us. MAybe. Oh, what the hell, let’s just copy them anyway.’
[2014/06/17 15:49] Seren (serendipity.seraph): after 911 the US government worked hard to come up with a definition of terrorism it liked and did not make many of its own actions terrorism. It failed.
[2014/06/17 15:49] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yes, it’s a very well done show. Millions of dollars, only 10 episodes per seasons, they take the time to do it right.
[2014/06/17 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: So is hypocrisy the thing that makes the metaphor turn bad? In the case of the war on drugs, the hipocrisy being the condoning of some bad substances such as alcohol?
[2014/06/17 15:49] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or you could just read about the War of the Roses. lol
[2014/06/17 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me would be fine fighting with roses.
[2014/06/17 15:50] Zobeid Zuma: It just sounds so dreary. 😐
[2014/06/17 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exie: hypocrysy, cynism, demagogy….
[2014/06/17 15:50] Metafire Horsley: No, it’s worse: Oh, it doesn’t work for the US. Maybe it still works for us? Probably not, but at least Uncle Sam won’t be angry with us if we make the same mistakes πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 15:50] ArtCrash Exonar: What is interesting about the war on drugs is that it has nothing to do with prescription drug misuse at all. ONly imported opiates and psychedelics.
[2014/06/17 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: Seren’s love is like a rose/ and I am a little thorny…
[2014/06/17 15:50] Seren (serendipity.seraph): no the hypocrisy is claiming to be a country based on freedom and then attacking people for what they consume and throwing them in cages
[2014/06/17 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s SO true, Metafire!!
[2014/06/17 15:50] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, hypocrisy is a separate issue; it’s not necessary to be a hypocrite to fight a war on X, it just helps when X is a popular thing to do.
[2014/06/17 15:50] Seren (serendipity.seraph): the hypocrisy is not that they didn’t include other drugs
[2014/06/17 15:50] Zobeid Zuma: Some kind of medieval soap opera about a bunch of ridiculous royals.
[2014/06/17 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, there is such a thing as the freedom to throw people into cages πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:51] Seren (serendipity.seraph): no there is not
[2014/06/17 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *now* there is πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me would love a War on Political Correctness
[2014/06/17 15:51] Seren (serendipity.seraph): or not any non-contradictory real freedom
[2014/06/17 15:51] Seren (serendipity.seraph): freedom fries
[2014/06/17 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: hey Sean
[2014/06/17 15:51] Sean Gorham: Hello!
[2014/06/17 15:51] Almitra Vella: how about instead of a war on war, we teach love of truth
[2014/06/17 15:51] Zobeid Zuma: Terrorism is an act of violence against the populace to instill fear.
[2014/06/17 15:52] Metafire Horsley: What seems to be (mis)used most is the Freedom to be stupid ^^
[2014/06/17 15:52] Almitra Vella: agreed, Meta
[2014/06/17 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: How do you fight a war on war? Use even stronger armed forces to prevent armed forces of using, well, armed force?
[2014/06/17 15:52] ArtCrash Exonar: because truth is dependent on ‘theory of knowledge’ and therefore not objective.
[2014/06/17 15:52] Seren (serendipity.seraph): almost no one loves truth
[2014/06/17 15:52] Extropia DaSilva: What is the truth?
[2014/06/17 15:52] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Like the parody of the Talking Heads, “Dare to be STupid.”
[2014/06/17 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Metafire. Indeed. And it will get worse: stupid people reproduce faster! That reminds me always how fickle evolution was to come up with ‘intelligence’, when we see it’s so little used.
[2014/06/17 15:53] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Huh, ArtCrash?
[2014/06/17 15:53] Seren (serendipity.seraph): so Number Theory means math is not objective?
[2014/06/17 15:53] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, are you really channeling for Pontius PIlate? Look what happened when he, erm, washed his hands.
[2014/06/17 15:53] Zobeid Zuma: That was the so-called “Marching Morons” problem, Gwyn. But it’s really bogus.
[2014/06/17 15:53] Metafire Horsley: I’m slightly amazed that “Truth” hasn’t been used as a brand name for something already. Like an energy drink. “Drink Truth! It makes you clever!” πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 15:53] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, you’ve read The Marching Morons, I see.
[2014/06/17 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Metafire…. you’re so goood at this
[2014/06/17 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I haven’t!
[2014/06/17 15:53] Sean Gorham: Or watched “Idiocracy.”
[2014/06/17 15:53] Seren (serendipity.seraph): well, there is a reason zombie movies are so popular
[2014/06/17 15:53] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Meta, you’d have to come up with a legal definition then. Heh.
[2014/06/17 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: I, like everyone, have a worldview and in that worldview somethings are axiomatic, some all but certain, some things less certain, and some things I dismmiss as plain crazy. But what guarantee do I have thay MY worldview maps perfectly to Reality?
[2014/06/17 15:54] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Sean
[2014/06/17 15:54] Sean Gorham: Hello!
[2014/06/17 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it does…. for your variant of Reality πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:54] ArtCrash Exonar: Truth for the religious is based on belief, whereas for the scientist it is based on reasoned evidence. Those things lead to people having different definitions of truth, so It can’t be the same for everyone.
[2014/06/17 15:54] Seren (serendipity.seraph): what is “maps perfectly” and why is it required?
[2014/06/17 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice argument, Art :=)
[2014/06/17 15:54] Metafire Horsley: You get that guarantee from the Ministry of Truth. Where else do you expect it to come from? πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note that I also consider ideologies as a form of religion.
[2014/06/17 15:55] Almitra Vella: not everything need be hypothetical, sometimes we can say we’d like to find a cure cancer and tell folks what it would really take, no latte’s for a year or whatever
[2014/06/17 15:55] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Not if they are grounded in reality and reason
[2014/06/17 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: Maps perfectly means everything I think is possible IS, and everything I think impossible is indeed not possible.
[2014/06/17 15:55] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, it’s about a world where welfare made all the low IQ’s reproduce but the high IQ’s, concerned about population control didn’t. They had to take care of the billions of morons, until they revived a Madison Avenue type from the 20th century. He made a campagin to sell Venus, and travel to it (and Venus was like it is in reality). The morons all booked flights to Venus. Problem solved.
[2014/06/17 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Like on the HitchHiker’s Guide of the Galaxy!
[2014/06/17 15:55] Seren (serendipity.seraph): as you are not and cannot be omniscient your definition is obviously impossible and devoid of meaning, my love
[2014/06/17 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I haven’t seen that movie, but the plot is familiar.
[2014/06/17 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: I think Douglas Adams recycled that idea for the Golgafrinchian Ark Ships.
[2014/06/17 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[2014/06/17 15:56] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): For science, truth is based on a paradigm, on consensus, on tradition, not so different than religion.
[2014/06/17 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: But Asimov was wrong.
[2014/06/17 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: Is the truth merely that info which gives us comfort?
[2014/06/17 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: March of the Morons is an Asimov story?
[2014/06/17 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: I guess not..
[2014/06/17 15:56] Seren (serendipity.seraph): No it is not based on those things
[2014/06/17 15:56] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, they probably got it from the book
[2014/06/17 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: But the ring of truth…what is that?
[2014/06/17 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: I think the term race, as in Space Race, might be a good term for future major goals. The race for green energy or The race for genetic disease control…..
[2014/06/17 15:57] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, it’s not an Asimov story. He’d have a benevolent government, or robot, come in and make things all better.
[2014/06/17 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: OO race..
[2014/06/17 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: I think it was Asimov… I know from his editorials that he took the idea seriously, at any rate. He saw the “Population Explosion” as a critical threat to civilization.
[2014/06/17 15:57] Almitra Vella: well, “race for”
[2014/06/17 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, for science ‘truth’ has a precise mathematical definition…. outside the field of maths, there is just ‘temporary truth until we find a better one’ πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:57] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, well it’s not just a metaphor; there was a race for space, so it doesn’t manipulate language the way ‘war’ does.
[2014/06/17 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: and Asimov was wrong, you say?
[2014/06/17 15:57] Seren (serendipity.seraph): March of the Morons is idea that more intelligent people almost always have less kids so if intelligence is in large part genetic you get a dumber and dumber average population
[2014/06/17 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right. What is wrong with that hypothesis?
[2014/06/17 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As far as I can observe, from my parochial statistics, it fits perfectly to reality as I observe it πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: Do prizes count as metaphor? Like the X-prize, for the first commercial spacecraft or the Methusulah mouse prize for making an old mouse biologically young?
[2014/06/17 15:58] Seren (serendipity.seraph): knowledge is contextual. What is the best fit for the facts within the context of what we know so far.
[2014/06/17 15:58] Seren (serendipity.seraph): that doesn’t mean it is arbitrary or religious.
[2014/06/17 15:59] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Gwyn, the precise mathematical definition is predicated on a lot of assumptions. I grant precision may be a difference between science and theology. For now, I grant it, anyway. Call me back by the end of the week.
[2014/06/17 15:59] Seren (serendipity.seraph): or subjective
[2014/06/17 15:59] ArtCrash Exonar: It turns out that Space Race actually meant extreme prioritizing of science for attainment of a specific goal. But extreme prioritizing doesn’t have a ring to it…..
[2014/06/17 15:59] Seren (serendipity.seraph): faith or believe “because it is absurd” has no place in science
[2014/06/17 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi β€” also notice that I made a huge distinction between ‘maths’ and ‘the rest of all other sciences’ (and we could argue if ‘math’ is a science)
[2014/06/17 15:59] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Religous isn’t arbitray either, necessarily
[2014/06/17 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: For one thing, average intelligence is still going up because of better education and nutrition around the world. Genetics is a relatively minor factor. And wealth seems to be what really cuts down the fertility rate, rather than IQ level.
[2014/06/17 16:00] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, we could. It involves no necessary empirical data.
[2014/06/17 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: Religions evolve like anything else.
[2014/06/17 16:00] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Genetics is about 50% by most estimations
[2014/06/17 16:00] ArtCrash Exonar: Math is a tool for science, not a science itself.
[2014/06/17 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you have eased my worst worries, Zo. I’m always scared when I see how moronic kids are these days, and they will run this country when I’m too old and frail πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:00] Metafire Horsley: It is a science itself. But some also see it as a form of art.
[2014/06/17 16:00] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that’s a topic in itself, Art, what is science. But math is not-empirical, and science does have an empirical dimension to it.
[2014/06/17 16:00] Seren (serendipity.seraph): math is a tool for formalizing patterns and abstractions and operations upon them
[2014/06/17 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I would tend to agree.
[2014/06/17 16:00] Seren (serendipity.seraph): so very important tool for understanding and predicting reality
[2014/06/17 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Rhi, yes, I would also agree with you πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:01] ArtCrash Exonar: It isn’t a science in that it is based on arbitrary givens. And not discovered.
[2014/06/17 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: Also, we got the lead out of the gasoline and the paint. So that helps a lot.
[2014/06/17 16:01] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, that just shows your age; the older generation has said that about kids since at least Arisophanes.
[2014/06/17 16:01] Seren (serendipity.seraph): It is not based on arbitrary givens
[2014/06/17 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, and see what the world is *today*, Rhi πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: Is Peter Joseph correct to say education and entertainment is deliberately dumbed down to ensure people are not capable of achieving the levels of critical thinking needed to see the state of our current moral and social zeitgeist?
[2014/06/17 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: oh yes, quote time. Ahem….
[2014/06/17 16:02] Zobeid Zuma: /me quotes: β€œOur youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; THEY contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates
[2014/06/17 16:02] Almitra Vella: /me smiles, “hide the truth”
[2014/06/17 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: Given: here are the acceptable rules, and these are not. That is the basis of all maths.
[2014/06/17 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, if Rhi is right, Extie, than the answer is ‘no’. If I’m right, the answer is that peter Joseph is spot on!
[2014/06/17 16:02] Almitra Vella: because it’s old does it become less true?
[2014/06/17 16:02] Sean Gorham: In other words, “Damn those kids today, when I was a kid we had MANNERS.”
[2014/06/17 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: good question, ALmitra.
[2014/06/17 16:02] Seren (serendipity.seraph): well if you see it then you a) go mad; b) become a religious leader which is much the same thing; c) become hyper-cynical; d) become a revolutionary; e) become some misunderstood poet or artist
[2014/06/17 16:02] Almitra Vella: yes, Sean, I believe you did, by those standards
[2014/06/17 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I would say that manners declined since the days of Socrates πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:03] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, I recall thinking how can there be public education in a democracy, after all State education should make people dumb and docile. And then it dawned on me–isn’t that exactly what public education does?
[2014/06/17 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren: I’ll pick c=
[2014/06/17 16:03] Sean Gorham: If they’ve been declining for THAT long I dare say we’re holding up pretty well.
[2014/06/17 16:03] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sean, yes, exactly my point in bringing that up
[2014/06/17 16:03] Almitra Vella: oh, Seren, my hopes of becoming a thoughtful person with reasonable expectations are doomed?
[2014/06/17 16:03] Metafire Horsley: Which kids nowadays actually know who Socrates was? They are likely to think he’s a kind of pop star or something.
[2014/06/17 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: right!
[2014/06/17 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We had a prime minister named Socrates. He was terrible.
[2014/06/17 16:04] Metafire Horsley: 😦
[2014/06/17 16:04] Sean Gorham: And when today’s kids grow up, they’ll say the same thing about *their* kids.
[2014/06/17 16:04] Seren (serendipity.seraph): what is this “reasonable”? How will you know?
[2014/06/17 16:04] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Almitra, no, the oldness of the belief is to show that it is a natural thing for the older people to say of the younger people, and that that doesn’t mean civilization is in decline–no more than it always has been, anyway
[2014/06/17 16:04] Zobeid Zuma: I learned about Socrates from Steven Martin.
[2014/06/17 16:04] Almitra Vella: current standards
[2014/06/17 16:04] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, just what country do you live in?
[2014/06/17 16:04] Almitra Vella: but that doesn’t make it less true, Rhi
[2014/06/17 16:04] Extropia DaSilva: Almitra, empires go through the same basic cycle. And the last stage of an empire is the age of decadence, typified by massive differences between the ruling class and everybody else, consipcuous displays of wealth, a parasite class that help themselves to the wealth without contributing anything, and ‘bread and circuses, ie the veneration of celebrity. How much of that sounds like current life?
[2014/06/17 16:04] Metafire Horsley: Oh, we have declined in many ways from ancient Greek standards. Those guys were amazing!
[2014/06/17 16:05] Seren (serendipity.seraph): but current standards are mad as a hatter in many ways or out-of-date with today much less tomorrow
[2014/06/17 16:05] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, worse ways to learn about Socrates. Steve Martin understood him and probably learned from him
[2014/06/17 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean: exactly, so the decline will go on and on. I think that we will hit the Reverse SIngularity soon: not a super-AI that is more intelligent than humans, but a rather stupid, non-functional AI which will just barely work, but that won’t matter, because future humans will be so stupid that they will all hail it as their leader.
[2014/06/17 16:05] Almitra Vella: I agree, Seren but I do not believe I must go to extremes, simply observe and accept
[2014/06/17 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: everything!
[2014/06/17 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: “Wait, hemlock is poisonous? How was I to know that? I’m a philosopher! I know what is beauty, what is truth! I don’t know what is poisonous and what is not poisonous.”
[2014/06/17 16:05] Sean Gorham: Is it really a decline, though, or is that just our own biases influencing what we experience?
[2014/06/17 16:05] Seren (serendipity.seraph): we have that kind of AI or much better already.
[2014/06/17 16:06] Sean Gorham: To expect every generation to behave just like their ancestors is silly.
[2014/06/17 16:06] Extropia DaSilva: Our civilization has to collapse. It is a physical certainty.
[2014/06/17 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean: I’m just being cynical. I expect that better education and better health actually allows more people to become clever, and that offsets the ongoing decline of human intelligence.
[2014/06/17 16:06] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, he knew it was poisonous, he thought it was his duty to carry out his own execution. Being a citizen, he had to obey the law (he thought).
[2014/06/17 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: Not following you, Extie…
[2014/06/17 16:06] Sean Gorham: Oh, believe me, Gwyn, I’m quite the pessimist too!
[2014/06/17 16:06] Seren (serendipity.seraph): how about “war on self-dishonesty” or “war on akrasia”
[2014/06/17 16:06] Almitra Vella: YAY, Seren
[2014/06/17 16:07] Almitra Vella: that would stop so many politicians and their critics in their tracks
[2014/06/17 16:07] ArtCrash Exonar: Advance and Decline are relative concepts to the values of the person speaking them.
[2014/06/17 16:07] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh akrasia, for a moment I thought you said Alaska. I thought that was rather silly. But yeah, agree with you, Seren
[2014/06/17 16:07] Seren (serendipity.seraph): except that that gives too much self anger and guilt and falls apart
[2014/06/17 16:07] Metafire Horsley: When you fight a “War”, you should have an idea what your army is and what your weapons are.
[2014/06/17 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Sean… I’m not really pessimit…. I’m just glad that I’m not immortal: it would be horrible to see the collapse of everything we’ve achieved so far. I’ll die way before that happens!
[2014/06/17 16:07] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, unless the Singularity happens. lol
[2014/06/17 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: Because Zo, endless growth and consumption has to run up against the finite resources of our home, this planet Earth.
[2014/06/17 16:07] Metafire Horsley: Oh, yeah, the nation of Akrasia has always been the arch enemy of our people πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 16:08] Sean Gorham: I seem to remember George Carlin having a wonderful little routine about how we like to “declare war” on things.
[2014/06/17 16:08] Seren (serendipity.seraph): they are not all that finite and we aren’t limited to this one rock
[2014/06/17 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No! We’re developing warp drives now!
[2014/06/17 16:08] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but by that time, we will have the resources of the solar system, and we are already working on warp drive. As they say in my home state. “Earth First. We’ll log the other planets later.”
[2014/06/17 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: People use the term Singularity like the Greeks used the Deus Ex Machina, a handy thing that sweeps in and solves all our problems for us.
[2014/06/17 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seriously πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: Extie, how did you bring “endless growth and consumption” into the equation? That was not part of your orginal assertion.
[2014/06/17 16:08] Metafire Horsley: Things collapsing make room for other things emerging out of the ashes.
[2014/06/17 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: what?
[2014/06/17 16:08] Seren (serendipity.seraph): good one Rhi
[2014/06/17 16:09] ArtCrash Exonar: Tell me why there would be a singularity? Who wouldn’t there be a group of AIs? What is so obvious about AI wanting to be all powerful? That seems to be a human trait.
[2014/06/17 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Metafire: say THAT to the Martians.
[2014/06/17 16:09] Almitra Vella: /me grins, “oh, you mean like telling the truth would do”
[2014/06/17 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The more human-like AIs become, Art, the more human traits they ought to have :)=
[2014/06/17 16:09] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Singularity does not require all powerful AI or “there can be only one” bullshit
[2014/06/17 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: The Singularity is the creation of superintelligence and what that means for the future, NOT artificial intelligence.
[2014/06/17 16:09] ArtCrash Exonar: So Nietzche was right even for AI? heh
[2014/06/17 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Singularity means something different for everyone. :p
[2014/06/17 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, my point is that we don’t NEED superintelligence if everybody is dumbed down πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:10] Almitra Vella: intelligence = truth
[2014/06/17 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naaha Almitra.
[2014/06/17 16:10] Seren (serendipity.seraph): it is the advent of > human artificial general intelligence – that is the point where we are not at the top of the local intelligence food chain
[2014/06/17 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: Tell me WHY it is singular? Nothing in the universe is singular.
[2014/06/17 16:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And they will have a warp bubble fairly soon. Only it’s the size of a pin, so there would have to be big breakthroughs in micro-miniaturization before its useful
[2014/06/17 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: the Big Bang is!
[2014/06/17 16:10] Almitra Vella: agreed, it’s actually recognizing the truth
[2014/06/17 16:10] Metafire Horsley: Everyone should be as dumb as possible, but not dumber πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 16:10] Seren (serendipity.seraph): singular has nothing to do with it any more than there is only one black hole
[2014/06/17 16:10] Almitra Vella: please excuse me
[2014/06/17 16:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Gwyn, not in really the same way.
[2014/06/17 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I wrote an article about that; I’m actually fascinated about the possibilities πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:11] Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2014/06/17 16:11] Extropia DaSilva: Intelligent people can be ‘protected’ from the truth, because they are more adept at defending ideas for nonsmart reasons.
[2014/06/17 16:11] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): i know Stephen Hawkins defined it as the Singularity at the beginning of the universe, and the Big Crunch as the singularity at the End of the Universe, but the latter was really a restaurent.
[2014/06/17 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘Protected’ from the truth….
[2014/06/17 16:11] ArtCrash Exonar: Well if the black hole is your metaphor, it breaks down in a lot of ways….
[2014/06/17 16:11] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, that’s what they do in today’s high schools isn’t it?
[2014/06/17 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Rhi. Well. I don’t know. Most of the people I know talk about the Big Bang as a singularity.
[2014/06/17 16:11] Seren (serendipity.seraph): no big crunch just winds down..
[2014/06/17 16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: sadly, yes
[2014/06/17 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: If there’s anything *like* a Singularity as most people seem to imagine it, it won’t be based on AI or some fantastic “superintelligence” somehow appearing. It’ll be based on molecular nanotechnology.
[2014/06/17 16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who are those ‘most people’? πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:12] Seren (serendipity.seraph): that would not give a singularity
[2014/06/17 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: Extie. :p
[2014/06/17 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: And probably this Kurzweil character who she keeps referring to.
[2014/06/17 16:12] Seren (serendipity.seraph): much better manufacturing, energy production and use, computation, medicine, etc.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me fights a War against Singularties. Once.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Metafire Horsley: The Singularity is an old hat. Let’s talk about something else please.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: The technological singularity holds that the human mind has a finite capacity for understanding, that the abstract space of all possible minds allows for other minds which can know things beyond human natural capacity to know, and that such minds will be made real through technology.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Singularity sounds a lot like Marx’s end of history. As all history involved class conflict, when society evolves to the point were there is only one class, which is the same as classlessness, there would no longer be laws of history.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Zobeid Zuma: Yes… Let’s talk about… The War on Singularity!
[2014/06/17 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m afraid I can’t ‘believe’ in the singularity. It resembles an amorphous god concept, so little specifics that anything goes.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh what a fantastic point, Rhi
[2014/06/17 16:13] Seren (serendipity.seraph): interesting formulation
[2014/06/17 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: Oh for goodness sake.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I already started that topic. But we can discuss it only once.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): With immortality, artificial intelligence, etc., there would not ge human life as we know it.
[2014/06/17 16:13] Seren (serendipity.seraph): gross, a marxism analogy.
[2014/06/17 16:14] Seren (serendipity.seraph): /me holds nose
[2014/06/17 16:14] Metafire Horsley: Oh, one more fitting criticism about the Singularity. I like it, Rhi πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: Let’s hope for that, Rhi.
[2014/06/17 16:14] Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2014/06/17 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: Human life as we know it has a lot of down sides.
[2014/06/17 16:14] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, but that’s the whole thing abut black holes, singularities, communism–there couldn’t be specifics, as they are beyond what we can know.
[2014/06/17 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha. It’s an ontological question.
[2014/06/17 16:15] ArtCrash Exonar: So The Singularity is in actuality The Singularities?
[2014/06/17 16:15] Sean Gorham: The singularity is today’s version of “here there be dragons” on old maps.
[2014/06/17 16:15] Metafire Horsley: Would you recognize a classless society when you saw one?
[2014/06/17 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe, bands change their names all the time…. ops wrong discussion.
[2014/06/17 16:15] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, it’s not necessarily a criticism of the singularity than human life as we know it would cease. It’s just that it, like so many ‘religious’ beliefs involves the unknowable.
[2014/06/17 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: Is it really so hard to believe? Science, which is really the product of the human collective, is already opening up aspects of reality we hardly understand. Is it really so hard to believe that sci-tech could reveal truths that our minds REALLY cannot get a handle on!?
[2014/06/17 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: Sean has a point. Like the weather, technological advancement is chaotic, unpredictable.
[2014/06/17 16:15] Sean Gorham: It’s not hard to believe at all,
[2014/06/17 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Belief is always hard, Extie, if you have a scientific mind πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:16] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sean had a point and I missed it? Rats.
[2014/06/17 16:16] Seren (serendipity.seraph): it is that we are not the smartest beings around any more and history is not primarily our creation from then on.
[2014/06/17 16:16] Sean Gorham: But because of the fact we can’t get a handle on it, we could talk about it forever and never come to a conclusion.
[2014/06/17 16:16] Zobeid Zuma: So in a mathematical sense, the Singularity is a point beyond which it’s hopeless to try and predict.
[2014/06/17 16:16] Extropia DaSilva: Then why do people not see that the tech Singularity is a definite possibility?
[2014/06/17 16:16] Sean Gorham: We won’t really know we’re in a singularity until we’re THERE.
[2014/06/17 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean: like we do with God. πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:16] Sean Gorham: And maybe not until after.
[2014/06/17 16:16] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or a critical one, Gwyn. More that, as one physicist found out that as students get indoctrinated into physics, they form very rigid beliefs and aspects of reality that actually are coming true, but they don’t believe in it.
[2014/06/17 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And maybe it will be too late then.
[2014/06/17 16:17] Seren (serendipity.seraph): it is not god. no claim of all those omni-thingies
[2014/06/17 16:17] ArtCrash Exonar: Postulating AI that thinks in different and better ways in which we do is different than postulating AI or it’s successor that contains all knowledge and information. Quantum difference there. And I think no different than belief in God.
[2014/06/17 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hat’s interesting, Rhi. Almost paradoxal.
[2014/06/17 16:17] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, why, you just have to accept it on faith that it would be wonderful.
[2014/06/17 16:17] Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is offline.
[2014/06/17 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the quantum difference, use quantum computers. They will get it right. Maybe.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: It’s the ultimate unknown, and the unknown is always very scary.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But what if you just want a quantum of solace? Oh, wait, there’s British Inteligence for that.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Seren (serendipity.seraph): It is not predictable what these non-human superintelligences will do.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: mmh. I have heard that phrase before.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: hahahahaha
[2014/06/17 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: Sort of like going into the monolith in 2001. πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me watched that movie again last week!
[2014/06/17 16:18] Metafire Horsley: I predict they will do SOMETHING. Hah, I win πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 16:18] Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Sean Gorham: “My stars, it’s full of gods!”
[2014/06/17 16:18] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, right, and then after a few archetypal, dream like experiences, you’ll come out as a space fetus.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Sean Gorham: No, wait, that’s not how it goes.
[2014/06/17 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean: hahahahahahaha
[2014/06/17 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: BTW would you say the discovery of the Higgs boson was a feat of superhuman intelligence, given that it took such a large concentration of human effort to do?
[2014/06/17 16:19] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sean, right. lol
[2014/06/17 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: We should explore what is possible and even postulate what is possible, but we go wrong when we start to expect our postulations to be actual….
[2014/06/17 16:19] Seren (serendipity.seraph): what would you do if say you thought 1 million times faster than anyone else
[2014/06/17 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: Time spent watching 2001 is never wasted.
[2014/06/17 16:19] Sean Gorham: No, that was just a lot of human intelligences putting their heads together.
[2014/06/17 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: Many humans working together are still human.
[2014/06/17 16:19] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seren, I would probably protect myself from slow dullards, like the Koontz AI
[2014/06/17 16:19] Metafire Horsley: I would do a lot of thinking.
[2014/06/17 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seren: get bored a million times faster?
[2014/06/17 16:19] Metafire Horsley: Yeah, and then get bored πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 16:19] Seren (serendipity.seraph): get the hell away from the mad slightly evolved chimps?
[2014/06/17 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Barely evolved.
[2014/06/17 16:20] Seren (serendipity.seraph): figure out how to make at least select ones of them like yourself?
[2014/06/17 16:20] Metafire Horsley: Nah, they taste like chicken πŸ˜‰
[2014/06/17 16:20] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the Koontz AI took care of those ‘chimps’ He liked, and protected himself from those who might get ’em.
[2014/06/17 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Everything tastes like chicken, specially fried.
[2014/06/17 16:20] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We could all be pets of the AI
[2014/06/17 16:20] Extropia DaSilva: But Gwyn, the LHC is a machine of such astonishing complexity it is just completely beyond my abillity to understand completely.
[2014/06/17 16:20] Seren (serendipity.seraph): the Culture series is about the best benign outcome in fiction
[2014/06/17 16:20] Sean Gorham: That doesn’t mean it’s beyond human understanding altogether.
[2014/06/17 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what? I can’t even understand how a car works. I can still drive it.
[2014/06/17 16:20] Extropia DaSilva: and who DOES understand it completely?
[2014/06/17 16:21] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My Great Aunt Maude; she understands *everything* lol
[2014/06/17 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh, nobody? That reminds me of the old quantum mechanics jokes, ‘there are just three living people understanding quantum mechanics’
[2014/06/17 16:21] Seren (serendipity.seraph): The car doesn’t decide where it wants to go on its on.
[2014/06/17 16:21] Metafire Horsley: There’s no reason to understand anything completely. You just need to know the basic essentials and the details you are going to work on.
[2014/06/17 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not until Google sells them.
[2014/06/17 16:21] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, and you can’t know their exact location, right?
[2014/06/17 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: So what creates these things? If we attribute the termite mound to the superorganism, why not say the LHC or your motorcar was made by a human superorganism?
[2014/06/17 16:21] Seren (serendipity.seraph): yeah. I want my AI chaffeur
[2014/06/17 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Exactly, Rhi πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:22] Sean Gorham: I help people all the time with computers. Those people don’t know how computers work. Some of them barely have a concept of what the Internet is. That doesn’t mean it’s beyond human understanding. It just means they’re ignorant on the subject.
[2014/06/17 16:22] Seren (serendipity.seraph): yes
[2014/06/17 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why not say that the LHC was merely put together by a lot of humans working as a team?
[2014/06/17 16:22] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sean, good point.
[2014/06/17 16:22] Metafire Horsley: What’s a superorganism exactly?
[2014/06/17 16:22] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And where the heck are you? I don’t see you and don’t want to mess up my view by moving my camera around.
[2014/06/17 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m an IT consultant, and I have not the slightest clue on how a semiconductor works at the quantum level.
[2014/06/17 16:22] Sean Gorham: Lack of knowledge or understanding doesn’t automatically make it… ineffable?
[2014/06/17 16:22] Zobeid Zuma: We’ve got a special thing here on Earth, hope we don’t blow it.
[2014/06/17 16:22] Seren (serendipity.seraph): funny how most physicists I know make their living as software engineers
[2014/06/17 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yes, Seren
[2014/06/17 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: putting people like me out of a job!
[2014/06/17 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Computers are postmodern. We operate them at a surface level of signs and symbols, with their true workings totally obscure to most people these days who use them.
[2014/06/17 16:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, but with AI, you will have one terrific time as its pet.
[2014/06/17 16:23] Zobeid Zuma: They’re finding so many seemingly-habitable exoplanets now, the big question is turning to: where is everyone?
[2014/06/17 16:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Just remember not to pee in its facility.
[2014/06/17 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But wasn’t that true of MOST tools over human history? We used horses well before we understood biology.
[2014/06/17 16:23] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I built my first computer myself so I do know how they work
[2014/06/17 16:24] ArtCrash Exonar: One can think of millions of specialist deep knowledge examples. Our culture is already an organism of some sort in that is functions above the knowledge of any person or group.
[2014/06/17 16:24] Seren (serendipity.seraph): well some of the device physics requires better math than I have..
[2014/06/17 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: but you do not know how to build one from scratch, beloved.
[2014/06/17 16:24] Metafire Horsley: We even use the most complex system of all, the human brain before we understood it ^^
[2014/06/17 16:24] Sean Gorham: The world is too complex for everyone to understand everything about it.
[2014/06/17 16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: oh yes, let’s do a topic on that: ‘The Fermi Paradox Revisited: now that we know how to create warp drives, where are all the aliens?’
[2014/06/17 16:24] Zobeid Zuma: That would be a good topic.
[2014/06/17 16:24] Seren (serendipity.seraph): yes. depending on what level of “scratch” you want to go to. Do I get to start with diodes and transistors at least?
[2014/06/17 16:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wow, so we went from the war metaphor to a discussion of intelligence, to singularities, to AI, to specialization being compatible with human understanding. Did I leave anything out?
[2014/06/17 16:25] Sean Gorham: Warp drive, therefore aliens? Heh.
[2014/06/17 16:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, right, warp drive. Thanks Sean
[2014/06/17 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean: yeppers
[2014/06/17 16:25] ArtCrash Exonar: I think the best answer for where are the aliens, is that after advancing to a certain level, they are no longer interested in lower life forms other than in a caretaker role.
[2014/06/17 16:25] Seren (serendipity.seraph): war on wandering talks. πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the nearest technological alien would have to be at least 60 light years away, or we’d hear their radio shows.
[2014/06/17 16:25] Sean Gorham: I suppose we can wait for the Vulcan science ships to appear after we complete our first Warp 1 test, then. πŸ˜›
[2014/06/17 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Warp drive and the warp torpedo: the weapon to destroy whole solar systems. Being built at a NASA lab as we speak.
[2014/06/17 16:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that’s quite a large area to explore before first contact.
[2014/06/17 16:26] Zobeid Zuma: I think the whole warp drive idea is bogus.
[2014/06/17 16:26] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But Obama has publicly said, when people wanted him to build a death star, “The President doesn’t believe in blowing up planets.”
[2014/06/17 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: yes, they might have come upon their own Singularity and ignore pretty much the rest of the Universe, my basking in its light πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:26] Sean Gorham: But yeah, what happened to that whole “declaring war” thing? That’s why I showed up!
[2014/06/17 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow really, Rhi???
[2014/06/17 16:26] Zobeid Zuma: I wonder about that too….
[2014/06/17 16:26] Extropia DaSilva: But even alien civilizations must produce entropy or waste heat as a biproduct of their work. We should be able to detect that, but we do not.
[2014/06/17 16:26] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, Gwyn.
[2014/06/17 16:26] Metafire Horsley: Is there a better alternative to “War on X”/
[2014/06/17 16:26] ArtCrash Exonar: I declare War On The Singularity!
[2014/06/17 16:26] Sean Gorham: America is an empire. It’s not The Empire. πŸ˜›
[2014/06/17 16:27] Zobeid Zuma: That was my idea! πŸ˜›
[2014/06/17 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: Zo and I beat it to it. And you can declare that war only once.
[2014/06/17 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *you
[2014/06/17 16:27] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, again, that means that they would have to be at least 60ly away.
[2014/06/17 16:27] Seren (serendipity.seraph): The same president that says we don’t want weapons of war on American streets but gives mini tanks to police forces and gives drones to several agencies?
[2014/06/17 16:27] Extropia DaSilva: No the empire is the multinational corporations.
[2014/06/17 16:27] Sean Gorham: ^
[2014/06/17 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: /me cries
[2014/06/17 16:27] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seren, the very one. lol
[2014/06/17 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe he meant, ‘no weapons of war on AMerican HANDS, not streets’
[2014/06/17 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: oh gosh three mins left…anyone want to get us back on topic?
[2014/06/17 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: State: monopoly on violence, remember?
[2014/06/17 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: 2 mins now
[2014/06/17 16:28] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, right, he doesn’t want a sniper to shoot out the Death Star’s land station.
[2014/06/17 16:28] Metafire Horsley: What happens when the counter reaches 0?
[2014/06/17 16:28] Zobeid Zuma: Well, we blew off the War on X metaphor because it’s either A) an excuse to undertake drastic measures that otherwise wouldn’t be accepted, or B) a way to make it sound like you’re taking strong measures when you aren’t really.
[2014/06/17 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe because the state has a monopoly on violence, it decides to wage war on anything requiring some sort of violence? (like removing personal freedoms)
[2014/06/17 16:28] Seren (serendipity.seraph): yes Zo
[2014/06/17 16:28] ArtCrash Exonar: Governments are not the main organizations of control any more Corporations are. They cross all borders and are beholden to none.
[2014/06/17 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree with your summary, Zo.
[2014/06/17 16:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, why consistent libertarians are anarchists.
[2014/06/17 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: indeed, and most constitutions don’t protect citizens from corporations, only from governments
[2014/06/17 16:29] Zobeid Zuma: Libertarians are NOT anarchists.
[2014/06/17 16:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yes, that explains why we spun off to other topics.
[2014/06/17 16:29] Seren (serendipity.seraph): government is unique in legally being allowed to initiate force
[2014/06/17 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s what ‘monopoly on violence’ means, Seren πŸ™‚
[2014/06/17 16:29] Extropia DaSilva: leviathan
[2014/06/17 16:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There are libertarian anarchists, Zo, and they do argue that archists (the other kind, a term coined by Tibor Machan) are inconsistent.
[2014/06/17 16:29] Seren (serendipity.seraph): sure. but someone said they are no different from corporations which is false.
[2014/06/17 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Agreed, Seren.
[2014/06/17 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We live in cyberpunk days.
[2014/06/17 16:30] Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!

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