Thinkers 8th April 2014: Can tech reduce crime?

Extropia DaSilva: welcome to thinkers!
[2014/04/08 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: Where is Gwyn these days?
[2014/04/08 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: Is her computer challenged?
[2014/04/08 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: She has a schedule conflict I think?
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: She is a lazy who is a-bed as we speak.
[2014/04/08 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: aha
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: …topic.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: She gets more time on SL, but unfortunately not *this* time.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: Today’s topic is…
[2014/04/08 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: Today is the END of Windows XP. Moment of silence.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: oh ok.
[2014/04/08 15:33] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I was there when it was born
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: …………
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: right
[2014/04/08 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: amen
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: Topic
[2014/04/08 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: To what extent is crime and engineering problem? How far can technological development go in reducing it?
[2014/04/08 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: hmmm splain
[2014/04/08 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: I would celebrate… but Windows is still around, in possibly even more crappy forms.
[2014/04/08 15:34] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Is crime a matter of engineering. Can technology solve the problem of crime
[2014/04/08 15:35] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And my view is yes.
[2014/04/08 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: All crime, everywhere?
[2014/04/08 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: Are we able to steal only because we have yet to figure out how to make it impossible to take something without permission? for example.
[2014/04/08 15:35] ArtCrash Exonar: Like putting everyone in closed security zones?
[2014/04/08 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: “stealing” is only one tiny sliver of the vast world of “crime”
[2014/04/08 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: OK, maybe a large-ish sliver.
[2014/04/08 15:36] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’ve argued that as we emerge into the age of VR everywhere, we will basically be entering a age of complete and total accountability for all teirs of society
[2014/04/08 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: I said how far can we go in reducing, though
[2014/04/08 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: In England they’ve put up cameras everywhere. How has that worked?
[2014/04/08 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: Accountability meaning that everyone knows our every move?
[2014/04/08 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: could you elaborate for us, Val?
[2014/04/08 15:36] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It will eliminate it entirely
[2014/04/08 15:36] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yes.
[2014/04/08 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: So no more sneaking around having sex anymore?
[2014/04/08 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: Total accountability is a horrifying prospect.
[2014/04/08 15:37] ArtCrash Exonar: I agree Zo
[2014/04/08 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: Lovely woman like you should not need to sneak, Art.
[2014/04/08 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: If you try to force everyone to obey all the laws we have, it’ll crush society.
[2014/04/08 15:37] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Essentually, we are about to create VR that will require every public area to be completely under observation be hundreds of sensors.
[2014/04/08 15:37] ArtCrash Exonar: Totalitarian = total accountability
[2014/04/08 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: But what if we did not need to, Zo? What if it were technologically impossible to rape, murder, harm or steal anyone’s property?
[2014/04/08 15:38] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The world will mapped to millimeter accuracy.
[2014/04/08 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: I wish I could find out who stole my garden tools last week…..
[2014/04/08 15:38] Second Life: Xa Marlin is offline.
[2014/04/08 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: Then we would be living in fairy tale land, wouldn’t we?
[2014/04/08 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: Who controls the data will have too much power. I’m going to revolt.
[2014/04/08 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: That scenario is too alien to anything in our past or foreseeable future to even work with.
[2014/04/08 15:38] Second Life: Xa Marlin is online.
[2014/04/08 15:39] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): You will record every detail of every event you participate in, and that record will be in essence a factual record that can be used in court
[2014/04/08 15:39] Extropia DaSilva: Would we? What if we had devices in our brains which could read our thoughts and, whenever a potential crime was about to take place, the tech stopped it?
[2014/04/08 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: Oh gawd, imagine the court cases!
[2014/04/08 15:39] ArtCrash Exonar: And then people will revolt and destroy the technology
[2014/04/08 15:39] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): current best cases of survilliance states. hmm… Russia? China, to some degrees, too. North Korea
[2014/04/08 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: We wouldn’t be able to move, Extie. Anything you do is a “potential crime”. :p
[2014/04/08 15:39] ArtCrash Exonar: London is the first case.
[2014/04/08 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: cameras everywhere
[2014/04/08 15:40] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *giggle* it’s hard to explain fully when you don’t understand the basic underlying differences.
[2014/04/08 15:40] Zobeid Zuma: Getting out of bed in the morning is a potential crime.
[2014/04/08 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: Is not.
[2014/04/08 15:40] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): This is NOT Big Brother.
[2014/04/08 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: CCTV
[2014/04/08 15:40] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s sousveillance.
[2014/04/08 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: I run at you with a baseball bat. The device detects the muscle movements and calculates a 99% probability I intend to swing it at your head. So it intervenes.
[2014/04/08 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: It seems to me that we have already shown that crime is mostly a function of poverty.
[2014/04/08 15:41] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if it comes to that, small flying drones with a spracan, to paint some cameras will sell very well in the darknets
[2014/04/08 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: Well, that’s something out of a horror movie.
[2014/04/08 15:41] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We will CHOOSE to monitor everything, because of the benefits we will gain from doing so
[2014/04/08 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: I am then sent off for correction and there is no question of my guilt because of Val’s sousveiilence.
[2014/04/08 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone will be in jail before too long.
[2014/04/08 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: Not if they do not commit crime.
[2014/04/08 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: There would be a revolution. Civil war. Riots in the streets.
[2014/04/08 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: I agree with Zo
[2014/04/08 15:42] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): bigger correctional camp facilities, then we currently know about?
[2014/04/08 15:42] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Depends on the situation. Because most laws are all about holding people accountable.
[2014/04/08 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: how about speeding. If you catch every speeder, then the roads won’t function…. heh
[2014/04/08 15:42] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We’re going to have to abandon some laws that exist merely to enforce some religious morality
[2014/04/08 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: Good luck with that
[2014/04/08 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: Robot cars. If they were intelligent enough to know who should be able to use them and who is not, there would be no grand theft Auto. No, not the game:)
[2014/04/08 15:43] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Its not a matter of luck.
[2014/04/08 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: You’d just have to hack them. :/
[2014/04/08 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m skeptical of giving ultimate power to anyone.
[2014/04/08 15:43] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Basically, the key concept is that no-one WILL have ultimate power.
[2014/04/08 15:43] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): exactly! culture … the game that will be no more, just as example …. the way how we live will take severious damage
[2014/04/08 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: Anyway, why steal a car when you can just get in one not currently in use and, after you have finished, it parks itself ready for its next user?
[2014/04/08 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: Communist cars?
[2014/04/08 15:44] ArtCrash Exonar: who buys the gas?
[2014/04/08 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: /me snerks! “gas!” 😀
[2014/04/08 15:44] Second Life: Triona Fairlight is online.
[2014/04/08 15:44] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): There are so many interlocking factors it’s hard to cover them all simply.
[2014/04/08 15:44] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): electricity, mostly then
[2014/04/08 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: The car charges itself from the road, which is actually a big long solar energy collector.
[2014/04/08 15:44] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Gas is a short lived power source.
[2014/04/08 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: darn, I have to go AFK for a few
[2014/04/08 15:45] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Like Extie just pointed out’
[2014/04/08 15:45] Ari (arisia.vita): hb Zo
[2014/04/08 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: And there are butterflies and bunnies everywhere in the flower fields all around us!
[2014/04/08 15:45] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Nope.
[2014/04/08 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/04/08 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: nobody steal Zo’s avvie while she is away.
[2014/04/08 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: Power corrumpts, that is the lesson of history
[2014/04/08 15:45] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): roads tend to collect mud coverage, rubber remains and such. not the best surface for gathering solar energy
[2014/04/08 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: Power in the hands of a few, maybe. But what if this power were distributed among us all?
[2014/04/08 15:46] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We are heading into a crisis of very real danger, but it’s not a crisis that anyone is currently cognizant of .
[2014/04/08 15:46] ArtCrash Exonar: how is that possible?
[2014/04/08 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: because the technology is ubiquitous.
[2014/04/08 15:46] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “us” ? not exactly a western culture way of handling “power”
[2014/04/08 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: Someone has to make the rules
[2014/04/08 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: Not necessarily.
[2014/04/08 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: All of culture is rules
[2014/04/08 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: Rules can be an emergent propety.
[2014/04/08 15:47] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): the current power struture is not going to remain in it’s present form
[2014/04/08 15:47] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we’ve just before touched the historical connection between laws and religion
[2014/04/08 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: No society can survive without laws and law enforcement.
[2014/04/08 15:48] Extropia DaSilva: Ok..of all the crime types, which is most likely to be very much reduced if not eliminated by technological fixes?
[2014/04/08 15:48] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): maybe more atheism then now is a prerequisite for that change in society
[2014/04/08 15:48] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We will have laws and enforcement.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): but many things currently “illegal” will cease to be illegal so long as the person commiting them harms no-one but themselves.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: I say theft. It must be possible in principle to make stuff which knows who it belongs to and works only for its rightful owner. Why steal something which is useless?
[2014/04/08 15:49] ArtCrash Exonar: Religion will never go away. It creates mental security for many.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Why bother when material goods will lose the majority of value.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: another reason. Thanks Val.
[2014/04/08 15:49] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Someone steals something, you print another
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): it breaks, you print another
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): you lose it, print another
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): what value will it have?
[2014/04/08 15:50] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a bugged item will knnow when it was stolen, so the religious police know how’s right arm will get chopped of
[2014/04/08 15:50] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m not convinced that technology will lead to material goods for all. A complete reinvention of economy will be necessary for that.
[2014/04/08 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: I agree.
[2014/04/08 15:50] Zobeid Zuma: /me is back!
[2014/04/08 15:50] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): That reinvention is ALREADY underway.
[2014/04/08 15:51] ArtCrash Exonar: where?
[2014/04/08 15:51] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): thats WHY we are having a financial crisis
[2014/04/08 15:51] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): 3D printers? I thought them was a plastic hoax
[2014/04/08 15:51] Zobeid Zuma: BTW Extie… There’s already a big fight shaping up over “smart guns” that supposedly will only work for the owner.
[2014/04/08 15:51] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): good for manufactoring more junk debris
[2014/04/08 15:51] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Material goods are already losing value because they are TOO ABUNDANT
[2014/04/08 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: If we introduced robots and matter compilers into the societies we have, it would only serve to widen the gap between the rich and the poor. We need a radical reinvention of values.
[2014/04/08 15:52] ArtCrash Exonar: So why then do the prices of material goods keep rising?
[2014/04/08 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Inflation?
[2014/04/08 15:52] Extropia DaSilva: Inflation.
[2014/04/08 15:52] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Artifically created inflation.
[2014/04/08 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Yes… Moderate inflation is part of a healthy economy.
[2014/04/08 15:52] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): deliberate shortages created in efforts to keep prices high.
[2014/04/08 15:52] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): rare earthes
[2014/04/08 15:52] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Nope
[2014/04/08 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: The banks create money out of nothing, that steals value from the money that already exists, so the money in your pocket as less spending power, so the price of goods goes up.
[2014/04/08 15:53] Zobeid Zuma: A bit of inflation helps our economy conform to the time-value of money.
[2014/04/08 15:53] ArtCrash Exonar: What happens when there are no jobs because the robots are doing them all?
[2014/04/08 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: Inflation and interest are a means of enslaving people without them necessarily realising they are enslaved.
[2014/04/08 15:53] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Japan relased a survey just a few years ago of near surface undersea resource deposits. we have enough easily retreiveable rare earths to feed 700 times current demand
[2014/04/08 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Then people make their living by other means than holding a job.
[2014/04/08 15:54] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a deflation economy is mostly dysfunctional. seen on the Bitcoin. nobody spended them, because of hopes about a gain in value over time
[2014/04/08 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Working for a living is about the worst way to get by.
[2014/04/08 15:55] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The VALUE of goods is shifting from the material component to the Digital. i.e the designs I.P. patents, etc
[2014/04/08 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: So the government will distribute credits to all?
[2014/04/08 15:55] Zobeid Zuma: No, what a silly idea!
[2014/04/08 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: Either we see inequality the likes of which have never been seen since the days of Pharoh, or we see people finally freed from economic slavery and able to work at what they find fulfilling. Those are the two possible outcomes of the inevitable full automation of jobs.
[2014/04/08 15:55] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Valkyrie, these people on their island believed they had almost infinite electricity (using nuclear power). Their forecasts are more so-so
[2014/04/08 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: Well where is the value in work if there is nothing to be made?
[2014/04/08 15:55] Zobeid Zuma: Why does everyone reach for the government as The Answer?
[2014/04/08 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m saying there is no economy without the population having some sort of income. If they have no jobs, where does the income come from?
[2014/04/08 15:56] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Look at SL.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: The value comes from the self-satisfaction of personal development, and the acknowledgement from one’s peers.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: Wow… Somebody slept through Economics 101 and thinks that labor is the only way to have some sort of income.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Second Life: Xa Marlin is offline.
[2014/04/08 15:56] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s the ONLY example of a mostly functional abundance economy we curently have
[2014/04/08 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: So what is the other way/
[2014/04/08 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: ?
[2014/04/08 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: You can make money by selling economic resources: land, labor, capital and entrepreneurial ability.
[2014/04/08 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: I write essays and I feel achievement if people contact me and say I did a good job. That is payment enough for me, as is what I learn through researching it.
[2014/04/08 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: Robots just allow us to replace labor with capital.
[2014/04/08 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: Yes labor
[2014/04/08 15:57] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Everything here was made by someone. Not some corporation. Some ONE.
[2014/04/08 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: my point
[2014/04/08 15:57] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The environment that allows corporations to exist is dying.
[2014/04/08 15:57] Zobeid Zuma: So… Instead of an economy where most people are laborers, we just need to make most of them capitalists.
[2014/04/08 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: Val, SL proves that people WILL work, and work hard, even of there is no monetary reward on offer.
[2014/04/08 15:58] ArtCrash Exonar: That is so incredibly naive
[2014/04/08 15:58] Zobeid Zuma: Some people do actually make money in SL, Extie.
[2014/04/08 15:58] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ob, the Lindens 😀
[2014/04/08 15:58] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): as the net opens up market to to individuals more and more, the competition will increase. Corps REQUIRE minimal competition
[2014/04/08 15:58] ArtCrash Exonar: The definition of Capital is that it is accumulated wealth. It can’t by definition belong to the distributed masses.
[2014/04/08 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: The vast majority of builders make stuff in Sl with no expectation of monetary recompensation. They do it because they love it.
[2014/04/08 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: That’s not the definition of capital.
[2014/04/08 15:59] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): They CANNOT survive in a high competition environment
[2014/04/08 15:59] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): do we have some (maybe Wikipedia) definition of capital?
[2014/04/08 15:59] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): to work on?
[2014/04/08 15:59] Extropia DaSilva: For every content creator who makes profit there are hundreds, maybe thousands who do not.
[2014/04/08 15:59] ArtCrash Exonar: I would tell you to read Marx, but you would probably say he is a communist.
[2014/04/08 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: I read Marx:)
[2014/04/08 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics)㯨ɧꠠⲧꠤⲧꠤⲧ
[2014/04/08 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: sort of
[2014/04/08 16:00] Second Life: Lucius Diller is offline.
[2014/04/08 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: And that was a funky link…
[2014/04/08 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: btw are we still on topic?
[2014/04/08 16:00] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): With high level design software able to enable low knowledge individuals to have access to high knowledge skills everyone will be able to compete if they chose
[2014/04/08 16:00] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): he is a communist, so the next argument would be how far that values his statements 😀
[2014/04/08 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_(economics)
[2014/04/08 16:00] ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, we think that ‘engineering’ will result in totalitarianism…. heh
[2014/04/08 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: A carpenter is a laborer. His hammer is capital.
[2014/04/08 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: we seem to be talking about jobs and capital. I thought the topic was crime’s elimination?
[2014/04/08 16:01] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Nope. I might temporarily appear to, but that is merely a phase that will be quickly passed
[2014/04/08 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I don’t even remember how we got onto this….
[2014/04/08 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: It was Art’s fault.
[2014/04/08 16:02] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s all related. Crime is usually committed for two reasons. Need or because they assume they will not get caught.
[2014/04/08 16:02] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there never ever was a country without a vivid criminal scene. Just where it is most rampant, varies. Sometimes it is the goverment itself, or the nobility, or just some corporations. goes top to bottom
[2014/04/08 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: We got into this because someone was talking about utopia caused by robots. Which I think is not possible.
[2014/04/08 16:02] Second Life: Naring’Nari (joey.aboma) is online.
[2014/04/08 16:03] Extropia DaSilva: What would be preferable? A world where technology is perfected to a point where many crimes are no longer possible? Or one with less powerful technologies and more ways to commit crime?
[2014/04/08 16:03] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): What need will there be for crime when almost all material needs will be easily met?
[2014/04/08 16:03] ArtCrash Exonar: How will the needs be met? Who is going to give you stuff?
[2014/04/08 16:03] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Who will be stupid enough to commit a crime KNOWING they will be held accountable?
[2014/04/08 16:03] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Val, of course! “Greed is good!”. When all needs are served, there still is the greed
[2014/04/08 16:03] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ask Gordon Gecko
[2014/04/08 16:03] Zobeid Zuma: Well, the scenario we were given where we have some sort of computer in our heads that paralyzes us if it decides we’re about to commit some sort of crime…. is a horror movie. Almost anything else would be preferable to that.
[2014/04/08 16:04] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): You’re confusing needs with desire.
[2014/04/08 16:04] ArtCrash Exonar: Oh there are plenty of crime free societies, they are ruled by fear. See Saudi Arabia.
[2014/04/08 16:04] Extropia DaSilva: There is an increasing amount of free stuff. Free encyclopedias, free videos, free blogs, free apps, free videogames…
[2014/04/08 16:04] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *sigh* argumentum ad asurdums
[2014/04/08 16:04] ArtCrash Exonar: No I’m not I’m asking where are your needs being met if you don’t have an income?
[2014/04/08 16:04] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): last days a banker got shot dead in front of a surveillance camer in Lichtenstein
[2014/04/08 16:05] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): at least, they did not shot the camera
[2014/04/08 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: If physical stuff were as cheap to reproduce as information, it too would be given away at rock bottom prices.
[2014/04/08 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: There is crime in Saudi Arabia. I heard about some women there who were seen driving cars! *shock!*
[2014/04/08 16:05] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Exactly Extie.
[2014/04/08 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: Zo, is your point that crime will always be re-defined?
[2014/04/08 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: so tomorrow there will be crime, just of a type we do not recognize today?
[2014/04/08 16:06] ArtCrash Exonar: You can leave your bicycle on the street and pick it up next morning unlocked because if someone get’s caught stealing it they have their hand chopped off.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: Just that a system to prevent all crime would give *absolute* power to whoever makes the laws.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’m not saying this is immediate, but 3d printers will enable everyone to become basically self sufficient to an enormous degree for day to day needs.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Extropia DaSilva: Nobody heard of the computer hacker in the 40s.
[2014/04/08 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: That’s totalitarianism.
[2014/04/08 16:06] ArtCrash Exonar: Who will pay for the resources to feed the 3D printer?
[2014/04/08 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: We had cedar hackers in the 1940s. 🙂
[2014/04/08 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: Yes Val. Today’s 3D printers are equivilent to dot matrix printers. Imagine what the laser equivilent will be like.
[2014/04/08 16:07] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): You’re using todays versions of the machines to argue against future ability.
[2014/04/08 16:07] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Most objects could be made from atmospheric gases
[2014/04/08 16:07] ArtCrash Exonar: No I’m asking the question of how the future economy will work.
[2014/04/08 16:08] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): 3D print will change the way we create stuff, but it still is manufactoring. needs supplies. (design data, too). creates products. need customers to buy these
[2014/04/08 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: It’s not practical to make most things from air. :/
[2014/04/08 16:08] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not today. no
[2014/04/08 16:08] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): But in a decade?
[2014/04/08 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: You can already download a huge variety of designs for 3D printed objects for free. There is a pay it forward scheme in place whereby people go to groups and explain how to print a 3d printer, and they then take that knowledge to other groups. The Free revolution is underway!
[2014/04/08 16:08] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): air and an infinite amount of energy
[2014/04/08 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: Many things you make will require a lot of carbon, but air only contains traces of that, and it takes a lot of energy to extract. No technology is going ot change that.
[2014/04/08 16:08] ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone in the world, can’t be a designer or artist. So what will they do in this future economy?
[2014/04/08 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: Relax.
[2014/04/08 16:09] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’m a tech writer. I know what kind of research is going on. Most of those objections are based on old realities
[2014/04/08 16:09] ArtCrash Exonar: Who will support their relaxation?
[2014/04/08 16:09] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the reprap movement, indeed. so design data (intelectual property) might fall out of the calculation, costs == nothing
[2014/04/08 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: They will watch TV, read books, all supported by being partial owners in the resource-based economy.
[2014/04/08 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Land, labor, entrepreneurial ability.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: erg
[2014/04/08 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: Intellectual property is going to hell RIGHT NOW, as is my profession of freelance photographer.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): The VALUE will be in the design, the file to make the item.;
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Land, capital, entrepreneurial ability.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Not labor anymore. :/
[2014/04/08 16:10] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yup, because the current system is in freefall.
[2014/04/08 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone CAN’t be a designer though. In fact only few can.
[2014/04/08 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: Yes Art. Why pay top dollar for as freelance photographer when you can crowdsource any image you want and pay a pittence for it?
[2014/04/08 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Everybody doesn’t need to be a designer.
[2014/04/08 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: or nothing
[2014/04/08 16:11] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We’re in the collapse of one system, and the rise of another. it WILL get worse before it gets better
[2014/04/08 16:11] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Everyone can be a consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: You canno’t “crowdsource” a great photo. It takes a photographer to make that. :/
[2014/04/08 16:11] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the amount of digital images is really exploding. the picture’s quality … well, handheld cellphone lenses. Nothing to add there
[2014/04/08 16:11] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m asking the question which no one here wants to deal with, and that is how will the economy work in this land of plenty future?
[2014/04/08 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: I want to deal with it!
[2014/04/08 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: But you won’t respond to me. >.<
[2014/04/08 16:11] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’ve been TRYING to explain that and you keep dismissing me
[2014/04/08 16:12] Extropia DaSilva: Art. There is no limit to the amount of niches that can be generated. EVERYBODY can be an expert in something, EVERYBODY is a genius, given the right circumstances. The robot revolution will make that so.
[2014/04/08 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: But that niche needs consumers.
[2014/04/08 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: Any answer that doesn’t fit into your preconceptions, you don’t recognize as an answer.
[2014/04/08 16:12] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Do you really think people can ONLY be ONE thing?
[2014/04/08 16:12] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): capital seems tigtly bound to the concept of consumism
[2014/04/08 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: OR the economy needs to change so that it is no longer producer and consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:13] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And that is WHAT IS HAPPENING
[2014/04/08 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: How is that happening?
[2014/04/08 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: It could be a market for very few. The robots will not care. They will produce whatever you need in whatever quantity you need it, with some constraints to prevent runaway materialism.
[2014/04/08 16:13] Zobeid Zuma: I make my money from gas wells and leases (land) and investments (capital). I don’t work, and I do Just Fine. That’s the future.
[2014/04/08 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: who will pay you in the future?
[2014/04/08 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: Nobody will say ‘oh I would like to be X but I do not have the money’. Such thinking is obsolete.
[2014/04/08 16:14] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Look at electronics. They no-longer even manufacture their own devices they are mere design studios
[2014/04/08 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: Whoever needs what I’ve got to offer.
[2014/04/08 16:14] ArtCrash Exonar: Where will they get their money?
[2014/04/08 16:14] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): just my forecast into the blue future: when there will be huuge robot armies … they will mostly be killer robots, like flying drones trained to bomb people (dubbed terrorists, then)
[2014/04/08 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: All those robots taking everyone’s jobs, they’ll belong to someone. Somebody will get the money made from their production.
[2014/04/08 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: There is no need for pay because we are all retired, living off the credits provided by a highly efficient robot workforce:)
[2014/04/08 16:14] ArtCrash Exonar: So everyone who doesn’t own a business is screwed?
[2014/04/08 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: No. Where did you get that idea?
[2014/04/08 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t own a business, and I’m doing Just Fine.
[2014/04/08 16:15] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): With Watson level Artifical Experts, anyone will have access to the expertise needed to make theor own business if they wish
[2014/04/08 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: Why do we need credits? To manage resources.
[2014/04/08 16:16] Extropia DaSilva: Otherwise I could order the replicators to cover the Earth’s surface in lifesize statues of me.
[2014/04/08 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: Well the elephant in the room is that goods will be distributed in a workless society by government in some form or another. There is no other solution.
[2014/04/08 16:16] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *sigh* okay, Let me try this. Do you need Lindens to survive in SL? Really truly?
[2014/04/08 16:16] Zobeid Zuma: “Retirement” is probably the best existing model we have for how most people will eventually end up living, in a future where robots do all the work.
[2014/04/08 16:16] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Do you HAVE to work to survive in SL?
[2014/04/08 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: I have to work to pay LL my fee for this sim…
[2014/04/08 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: No you can get some fairly good stuff for free.
[2014/04/08 16:17] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Or do you do stuff to make L just to have perks and advantages?
[2014/04/08 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: In SL.
[2014/04/08 16:17] Zobeid Zuma: Why government? Where do you get that suddenly the government has to run everything? Where’s the logic?
[2014/04/08 16:17] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Valkyrie, paying tier fees squeezes most avatars dry
[2014/04/08 16:17] ArtCrash Exonar: So who will give me the means to buy stuff Zo?
[2014/04/08 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: I can live for free in SL. But of course my primary has to pay for the Internet, and electricity.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: The MARKETPLACE. It’s not going away.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I don’t own a home in SL, Never have.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: She is like the robot who slaves so I can party in luskwood all day of my life if I so chose:)
[2014/04/08 16:18] ArtCrash Exonar: No one can live for free in SL, they have to buy a computer and they have to pay for network access.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: There will always be a need for economic resources, and people (or maybe AIs) who will buy and sell them.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): No, there will always be a Market, and Money. But basic NEEDS will no longer be part of it\
[2014/04/08 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: VAL can live for free if her PRIMARY pays for the RL requirments of SL.
[2014/04/08 16:18] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It will be a market of DESIRES
[2014/04/08 16:18] ArtCrash Exonar: If you have a marketplace you have to have consumers and the consumers need a source of income.
[2014/04/08 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: Yes.
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: So what is the source of income of those who don’t work in the future?
[2014/04/08 16:19] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): now since we are almost over time, I am curious to know today’s toppic
[2014/04/08 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: I have answered that.
[2014/04/08 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: There is no income.
[2014/04/08 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: I have answered that, and answered that, and you keep treating me like I never said anything.
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: You didn’t!
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: You said you have stocks
[2014/04/08 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: There is a pension. A lifelong pension provided by the economy which is fully automated.
[2014/04/08 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: Is that your answer?
[2014/04/08 16:20] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yup, and there will be many ways to earn an income. Can I say exactly what those jobs will be at present? Nope, but I can think of quite a few possibilities.
[2014/04/08 16:20] Zobeid Zuma: I said people will sell LAND and CAPITAL and ENTREPRENEURIAL ABILITY. All the economic resources other than labor.
[2014/04/08 16:20] Zobeid Zuma: Stocks are one example of that, they are a form of capital.
[2014/04/08 16:20] ArtCrash Exonar: That can’t be everyone. Why is that difficult to understand?
[2014/04/08 16:20] Zobeid Zuma: Why can’t it be everyone?
[2014/04/08 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: Art why be selfish?
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: Most people work now. You replace them with capital, somebody’s got to own that capital.
[2014/04/08 16:21] ArtCrash Exonar: Because in the equation you have producer and consumer, not producer only.
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see the problem.
[2014/04/08 16:21] ArtCrash Exonar: Libertarians seldom do.
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: Well?
[2014/04/08 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: Spell it out for me, if I’m that dense. :p
[2014/04/08 16:22] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And land will not mean as much when the current uses for them are no longer relevant. With printed foodstocks, no need for vast agriculture, with new resource extraction tech, no need for huge areas of land for mining etc. with VR houses, no need to have vast tracts tied up in houses when everyone can have a house of infinite size
[2014/04/08 16:22] Extropia DaSilva: If we have robots and other forms of automation providing everything the global economy needs, why should people even NEED to earn an income? Why not just distribute the vast wealth the robots generate so we may all live in dignity?
[2014/04/08 16:22] ArtCrash Exonar: There are a lot of people in the world. If they don’t have jobs producing things, they have no way to get access to capital or land or stocks or anything.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Oh there you go again!!
[2014/04/08 16:23] Zobeid Zuma: Yes… Well, we’ll need to do something about that.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Zobeid Zuma: We’ll need to come up with some sort of plan to ensure that ordinary people — former laborers — can get their hands on enough economic resources to sustain themselves.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Ner ner ner we have enough to support you but unless you work we give you nothing. That is AWFUL Art.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Ari (arisia.vita): It’s been great being with you all but I must fly. Be well and happy and I hope to see you all again soon.
[2014/04/08 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Bye Ari!
[2014/04/08 16:23] Ari (arisia.vita): bye for a bit
[2014/04/08 16:24] ~Fae Faire Orange Nini Pillow [Wear Me!]~: releasing controls
[2014/04/08 16:24] ArtCrash Exonar: So that means government, right Extie?
[2014/04/08 16:24] Zobeid Zuma: I’ve got some possible ideas about how we might do it.
[2014/04/08 16:24] ArtCrash Exonar: That is the WE that will support others.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Second Life: Ari (arisia.vita) is offline.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: I must be into this debate to let it go on past 3:15.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: thanks for whatever that was Luisa.
[2014/04/08 16:24] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): with the cost of material good reaching minimal value, you might very well make a living being paid to be a consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:25] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Extie, that is if the discussion will end in a pillow fight, smaking more solid arguments
[2014/04/08 16:25] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s not an easy question to answer, because we have very little experience with the economic model
[2014/04/08 16:26] ArtCrash Exonar: Future income must come from somewhere. Otherwise the consumer/producer economic model must be entirely abandoned.
[2014/04/08 16:26] Zobeid Zuma: darn it, I can’t figure out how to swing this thing :p
[2014/04/08 16:26] ArtCrash Exonar: script error
[2014/04/08 16:26] ~Fae Faire Orange Nini Pillow [Wear Me!]~: releasing controls
[2014/04/08 16:26] Extropia DaSilva: Fact is, full unemployment is a mathematical inevitability in any system whose primary goal is increased profits. And either we condemn people to economic obselence or we design to take advantage of inevitable robots.
[2014/04/08 16:27] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It will come from somewhere, but the NEED for that income stream will be VASTLY reduced
[2014/04/08 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: Welcome to the Socialist future…. heh
[2014/04/08 16:27] Zobeid Zuma: Everybody is a consumer.
[2014/04/08 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: People only consume if they have income.
[2014/04/08 16:27] Extropia DaSilva: no
[2014/04/08 16:28] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not socialist. True communism where EVERYONE has their own means of production
[2014/04/08 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: yes Val
[2014/04/08 16:28] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): technology evolves faster then society. our current economical order might not survive that. IP rights made a start, to show that point
[2014/04/08 16:28] Zobeid Zuma: And Val… I don’t see “printed foodstocks” making the need for agriculture disappear. You’ve got to get the feedstock from somewhere. I guess it could be, I dunno… algae or something.
[2014/04/08 16:28] ArtCrash Exonar: That is what I was trying to get you all to admit! haha
[2014/04/08 16:28] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not marxism Art.
[2014/04/08 16:28] Zobeid Zuma: What did they all admit?
[2014/04/08 16:28] ArtCrash Exonar: who said it was?
[2014/04/08 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: Resource based economy. Not a cult of personality like Stalinist Russia or North Korea under Kim Jon Il or whoever.
[2014/04/08 16:29] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Not a political system at all
[2014/04/08 16:29] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Zob, if we have to nibble on algae instead of decent food, you will have a massive revolution 😀
[2014/04/08 16:29] ArtCrash Exonar: If it is controlled by laws it is a political system.
[2014/04/08 16:29] ArtCrash Exonar: Soylent Green is PEOPLE!
[2014/04/08 16:30] Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2014/04/08 16:30] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Again, every atom used in the making of food is available from the atmosphere
[2014/04/08 16:30] ArtCrash Exonar: not true
[2014/04/08 16:30] Extropia DaSilva: Last thoughts folks…will there be less crime in the future?
[2014/04/08 16:30] Zobeid Zuma: Our current economic system will have to change a lot. There will be great upheavals. But I don’t think going Communist is the answer.
[2014/04/08 16:30] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): when we are making things from the atoms up,
[2014/04/08 16:30] ArtCrash Exonar: There are many metals and minerals in food that are not in the atmosphere.
[2014/04/08 16:30] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): nope. not going to happen. crime is a lifestyle to some people
[2014/04/08 16:31] Zobeid Zuma: I have no idea, Extie. :/
[2014/04/08 16:31] Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And I disagree. I think “crime as we know it” will vanish
[2014/04/08 16:31] Zobeid Zuma: Most of the statistics would point to less crime, but… that’s not due to technology.
[2014/04/08 16:31] ArtCrash Exonar: Crime will vanish when poverty vanishes.
[2014/04/08 16:31] Extropia DaSilva: Ok…
[2014/04/08 16:31] Extropia DaSilva: well my time is up!

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One Response to Thinkers 8th April 2014: Can tech reduce crime?

  1. friv 4 says:

    A lot of things we can see, a system and the long list.

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