Thinkers Jan 28 2014: Post-human families (with guest chairperson Zobeid Zuma)

Zobeid Zuma: okay… So!
[2014/01/28 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: how alien that must feel.
[2014/01/28 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, it did when I first stopped s tripping–wearing clothes at work?  Seemed weird.
[2014/01/28 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: A couple of weeks ago the question was, what will post-human society be like? Tonight our focus is on the most basic unit of society: the family. What will post-human families be like? Or else, what will supplant the family?
[2014/01/28 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But you get used to anything
[2014/01/28 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I wonder if the family will get supplanted–might change form; like in a Heinlein story, but supplanted?
[2014/01/28 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Depends on how you define the family, I guess. If it changes enough, then you might call it something else. 🙂
[2014/01/28 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Very large, what with indefinite lifespans. We could have great-great-great…and so on ad infinitum grandparents who are still alive and active members of the family.
[2014/01/28 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, the multi-generational family was the mainstay until the ’50’s.  We would just be going back to it.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: First and foremost families are economic units and reproduction units. So the future family will depend on how we reproduce and how we organize the world economically.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: If people aren’t growing old and dying, you don’t need constant reproduction to propagate the species. You can still do it, of course… resources allowing.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Families are first and foremost support systems.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: You could have an elder brother or sister who was born after you, on account of their fetus being frozen and implanted in your mother’ womb AFTER you are born.
[2014/01/28 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unless we all get happily suupported by the State, there will be families
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: so are you older than them or are they older than you?
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: WB B
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, sounds again like a Heinlein story, where Venusians were often younger than their grandkids.
[2014/01/28 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Bodhi
[2014/01/28 15:38]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): crashed lol
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We noticed, Bodhi, but don’t you  Buddhists call it Enlightenment, or something?
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: As I see it… The family is a reproductive unit, and also a multual-support, um… collective, if you will. The two are linked because kids need a lot of support.
[2014/01/28 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: The idea that families are a nuturing system is a good one. They nurture and train the young. Can the state do this kind of one on one socialization? Probably not.
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s the mutual support that is critical
[2014/01/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, exactly.
[2014/01/28 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe we don’t have “young” anymore. Raising and educating a kid for 20 years is a highly inefficient and costly process. So maybe you can replicate people or synthesize them fully-formed instead?
[2014/01/28 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, we’re talking “post-human”. It implies leaving the limitations of a biological life cycle behind.
[2014/01/28 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, there will be a lot of pre-fab kids then.  lol
[2014/01/28 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe the post human family begins with the mapping of one’s mind, and subsequent ‘uploading’ of that mind into a separate substrate? Greg Egan imagined a ‘solipsist nation’ in which a whole virtual world was filled with copies of one person, each with their mind’s edited so they have no feeling of connection to one another.
[2014/01/28 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hmmm I wonder if it is possible to genetically change humans to develop their brains more quickly. Apparently that is what takes such a long time with child development compared to other species.
[2014/01/28 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I would think then that it wouldn’t be solipsist–you’d have the original and the copies; all different entities.
[2014/01/28 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: What was the purpose of that, I wonder? Sounds like a monoculture to me.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: well that is my interpretation of what he was going on about, Rhi. I may not have described it properly.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, don’t sell yourself short; I haven’t read Egan, but I bet he was saying exactly what you said he was; I’ve read similar speculations.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have talked in depth about personality before and have roughly concluded that it isn’t stable in any one person over time. So with clones, there is no reason to believe the people would be that similar to each other over time, mentally.
[2014/01/28 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: You remember Peer Infinity? His avatar was named after the character who most desired Solispsist Nation.
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Ari (arisia.vita): lovely soft pink rabbit comes to mind 🙂
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I could imagine synthesizing one or two more Zobeids. That would make a nice mutually-supportive collective. I wouldn’t want to become a hermit and just be stuck with them, though.
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it (Solipsist Nation) had something to do with the complete and utter rejection of the physical world.
[2014/01/28 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: Oh btw, Extie, I was very sad to hear about the demise of the Extropia sim….. sighs
[2014/01/28 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, ‘personality?’ Maybe.  Memory is the criteria LOcke used for personal identity, and there is always the soul.  I didn’t know Peer had a basis for his name.
[2014/01/28 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, so that’s official?  HOw are you holding up, Extie?
[2014/01/28 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: He was an infinite peer?
[2014/01/28 15:45]  Ari (arisia.vita): yes, nothing left of Extropia, very sad
[2014/01/28 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Does not bother me. I did not live there or anything. Just used to visit from time to time.
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: It was nice having a sim named after me, though.
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sic Gloria Transit Mundi
[2014/01/28 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Scarp has had a few art shows there. I used to attend the DJ events there with Formatting Heliosense too.
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, again, Bodhi
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Ari (arisia.vita): It’s where I met….Extropia 🙂
[2014/01/28 15:46]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): sorry ya internet issues… here…
[2014/01/28 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah it was a great sim. I have lots of fond memories of it and the people I met there. Like dear Ari:))
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You can turn around, Bodhi, I’m used to being naked in front of others.
[2014/01/28 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extropia is where I first got into attending lectures at the old Sophrosyne’s Saturday Salon….
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Ari (arisia.vita): ah yes
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): This is all before my time.
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sophrosyne’s Saturday Salon?
[2014/01/28 15:47]  Ari (arisia.vita): it was great
[2014/01/28 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I take it in the 18th century sense of salon; people talked philosophy and weren’t getting their hair done.
[2014/01/28 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha, yes
[2014/01/28 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Usually interviewing a famous Second Life mover and shaker.
[2014/01/28 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Do you ever talk philosophy while getting your hair done? 🙂
[2014/01/28 15:48]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): ya naked matters zero to me… sall good
[2014/01/28 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Rodney!
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Rodney Handrick: Hi
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Soph used to invite people like Kim Stanley Robinson or Charles Stross or myself, and she would interview that guest and later there would be a group discussion. It was great!
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I only went to one event in that sim, but it was so overloaded and lagged that it really didn’t work for me. 😦
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I usually zone out when I have my hair done.
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: hiya Rodney..
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Glad to here it, Bohdi.  That is part of the road to Enlightenment.
[2014/01/28 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: so anyway, time is ticking by..
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So one way to get a  handle on family is to ask ourselves–what’s an “extended” family?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: So… Here’s another question. Let’s say in the future we’re all fabulously wealthy, so we don’t need mutual financial support, and we all have robot servants to do our daily tasks for us… Do we need a family? Do we need at least emotional support?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Would this group count?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: If we have expanded memories, will that affect dunbar’s number?
[2014/01/28 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: The more I think of the future family, I think it all depends on how the economics of the future would operate. Would there be discrete small economic cells like the family is now or would it be larger groups?
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I know I do, Zo. I would not be happy if I had to live without my sis Jamie or my partner Seren.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Economic cells… You thinking of something like a hippy commune, Art? 🙂
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think the family is an emotional, psychological, spiritual unit, so I don’t think it will be eliminated by a society with robots and replicators.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): ive lived in hippy communes recently
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh?
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: what was that like?
[2014/01/28 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: No Zo I’m thinking more of a small tribal village group and how those economies operate.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): it was great…
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): but not perfect… as expected
[2014/01/28 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tribes grew out of families.
[2014/01/28 15:51]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): the only obstacle is ego
[2014/01/28 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The tribes of Israel, for instance–all started by one of the sons of Abraham.
[2014/01/28 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: A huge obstacle in my case;)
[2014/01/28 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hippy commune is a kind of tribal group I guess.
[2014/01/28 15:52]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): naked beach goings and drum circles… very haha
[2014/01/28 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is if the tribes of Israel actually existed. There is no historicity for them.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, oh, sure there is; unless you just want to exclude all the histories that mention them, all the monuments, documents, etc. as “tainted,” i.e., in consistent with atheism.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: If we assume the goal of transhumanism is to amplify the positive and reduce the negative (preferably to zero) then maybe posthumanity will be MORE focused on building family ties than we are. Not as if they have to be apart in order to go out and do a job, after all.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: To me, “tribal” implies an us-versus-them mentality, where members look out for one another but are callous (if not hostile) towards outsiders.
[2014/01/28 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They’ve found artifacts for one in one of the “stans,” there was a tribe airlifted by the Israeli Air Force from Ethopia.  Other historians aside from Hebrew mention them.
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not sure of transhumanism would have a goal
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And yes, Zo, gypsies are like that.
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes it does, Rhi.
[2014/01/28 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: One could argue that the social advancement of mankind has largely been based on seeing ourselves are part of larger and larger groups…
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, depends on the variety–the one I hear most discussion, where we are all immortal and plugged into an AI, , strikes me as anti-any small group
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ‘Childhoods’ End’ or the Borg
[2014/01/28 15:55]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): is it weird if one person is on mic here…
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: I think Jehovah’s Witnesses are like that too, Rhi. 🙂
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Well..It has an aim, which is to develop scitech which enables each of us to achieve become all we can be, however we choose to define that (and provided nobody else is harmed by our choices).
[2014/01/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yeah, they try to be tribal
[2014/01/28 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And they believe all the non-believers will be their slaves in Heaven.
[2014/01/28 15:56]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): lol
[2014/01/28 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: No you can use mic. I will just not hear you, on account of having voice disabled:)
[2014/01/28 15:56]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): ah
[2014/01/28 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But anyone can join the tribe.  Which raises the question–what are the boundaries of membership here
[2014/01/28 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some small tribal communities, when studied, define families in quite a different was than Western nuclear families are defined. For example the actual birth mother of a child has little to do with the rearing of the child, that task being done by an Aunt or Uncle.
[2014/01/28 15:57]  Rodney Handrick: I’m fascinated by the desire of people to want to go to a “heaven”…
[2014/01/28 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, that does change the dynamic.  No Oedipus Complex, for one thing
[2014/01/28 15:57]  BohD.M.T. Hawaii (bodhisativa): why would one need to go anywhere for that
[2014/01/28 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rodney, me too; I settle for an occasional visit to a Disney theme park.
[2014/01/28 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Dogs. People often consider dogs to be not just pets but members of the family. Maybe some would, if they could, engineer a dog’s brain to make them more intelligent, able to speak and stuff. Furries could become actual real live creatures and part of the extended family unity!
[2014/01/28 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: unit
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now *that* I could get behind.
[2014/01/28 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: So in the future when reproduction is a very rare event, would a family bee needed for that?
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Now that’s interesting, Extie…
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I intend to genetically modify a rabbit to be bipedal and have pink fur. Now, what will I name it?
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I hve an appartment above Rosalyn’s care facility; my new dog knew within a couple of days who lived there and who was just visiting, or didn’t belong.
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I know that’s relevant somehow.
[2014/01/28 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: I suspect we’ll have a lot of gray areas and different classifications for people, non-people, semi-people…
[2014/01/28 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: digital people:)
[2014/01/28 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We already have that–people who only exist online.
[2014/01/28 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I know, I am one.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: so are you all, only some of you perhaps do not realise it yet;)
[2014/01/28 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: When I think of family I think of people that I have to deal with whether I like them or not, sort of a cultural requirement. But in reality what do cousins I never see or never knew well to start with really mean to me? Virtually nothing.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Me too; I have my own credit card, Facebook account, and what more do you need to be real?
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Second Life: Ian Mondrian is online.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In fact, I’m probably more real, by modern standards, than my paratar.
[2014/01/28 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: I know that feeling, Art.
[2014/01/28 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Home is where, if you have to go to it, they have to take you in?”
[2014/01/28 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Some of we transhumanists think we will, in the future, share this planet with an alien intelligent species: Robots gifted with strong AI. Now, what would ‘family’ mean for that race of beings?
[2014/01/28 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: does it mean ANYTHING?
[2014/01/28 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you think of how much the family economic unit is needed in today’s culture, it is bigger than first assumed. In my world full support until I was 18 then relied on for loans, used cars, home downpayment, and a fall back position if it all falls apart.
[2014/01/28 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: It depends on how the AI works, I guess? We don’t have a lot to base speculation of robot psychology on.
[2014/01/28 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My father raped me when I was 11; my mother was never there for me; my ‘family’ are people I am not related to–like Rosalyn, who took me in when I was homeless, and now I care for her.
[2014/01/28 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: If we have to resort to brain reverse engineering, the robots may need family and a social circle just as we do.
[2014/01/28 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, they might, or they might base their decisions on rules and algoritms–like R. Daneel Olivaw.
[2014/01/28 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: A key question for future AI is whether discrete beings would exist or if all would be part of a larger entity. If the beings are discrete, they would change in different ways from each other. If one, the changes would be for all.
[2014/01/28 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: I always figured we’d have two classes of robots… a worker class and a “real people personality” class, to use the Sirius Cybernetics term.
[2014/01/28 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Your plastic pal who’s fun to be with!
[2014/01/28 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/01/28 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Also, if you believe David Levy, there will be robots designed to offer emotional and/or sexual satisfaction for those who seek it and cannot find it in human relationships. So that could be another way in which posthuman family is changed: Inter-species relationship.
[2014/01/28 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, I think you’re right.  I was reading where most physics grad. students don’t blieve we’ll hve robots for a couple of century–and I thought, what if IBM does create AI, and the AI does have telemetric connection to all those robots on wheels that currently do things like patrol malls?
[2014/01/28 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: If there is no qualitative difference between emotional and sexual satisfaction from a robot or a person. Wouldn’t we consider them to be the same?
[2014/01/28 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: I think you just described Robopocalypse, Rhi. (I have it on my Kindle!)
[2014/01/28 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Heh, I’ve read an SF story for each of those scenarios that people keep bring up..  Robots were threatening the human race because guys liked to fuck the robot-women more than real ones.
[2014/01/28 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Seeing as we have plenty of robots now, they must have meant something else. Like, robots with general intelligence to rival or surpass us.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, they meant “real” robots.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Like in Asimov.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Asimovian robots
[2014/01/28 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2014/01/28 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: jinx
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me locks eyes with Art and giggles
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Charles Stross’s ‘Saturn’s Children’ explored that theme, Rhi.
[2014/01/28 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: People do have a tendency to anthropomorphize things…. And there is researching into making robots illicit emotional responses and interact better with people. So…
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if I leave now, I may be able to grab a bite to  eat before I head to work.
[2014/01/28 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have to rethink what constitues personality if the difference is indistinguishable.
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So take care all; great topic, Zo!
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Thanks Rhi!
[2014/01/28 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Later Rhi
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You’re welcome, Zo
[2014/01/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Later Art
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Take care, Ari, Extie
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Glad you could make it, Rodney.  Oh, he’s away.
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Au revoir, people; we will meet again–and soon.
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me waves and poofs
[2014/01/28 16:12]  Rodney Handrick: No, just listening
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Quite often, when a bomb-disposal robot gets blown up, the team are not happy to get a replacement, but instead want it fixed. It is because they consider the robot a member of the team and so do not consider another robot to be the same. Even though, by any practical standards, it is!
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Second Life: Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Rodney Handrick: Have to go now…bye
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2014/01/28 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is interesting Extie
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Ari (arisia.vita): bye rodney
[2014/01/28 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Seeya Rodney
[2014/01/28 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems to me that we’re looking at a chaotic future with many different types and categories of beings. So… Maybe “family” is something that people cobble together however works for them. Maybe they vary wildly, in the post-human future?
[2014/01/28 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some people have an emotional relationship to their Automobiles too.
[2014/01/28 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Or maybe we’ll go through an exciting phase of experimentation before the new traditions eventually shake out. 🙂
[2014/01/28 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Like Rhi said earlier, her ‘family’ is made up of parts she pieced together throughout her life.
[2014/01/28 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Zo. The family tree will be affected by extreme longevity, the possible introduction of new species, mind uploading, and perhaps even relativistic time travel.
[2014/01/28 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: So maybe the future equivalent of the family would be a group we cobble together for nuturing, social or economic purposes.
[2014/01/28 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes… The traditional family didn’t work for her, so she put together a substitute and made it work. I like that. (despite the distressing need for it)
[2014/01/28 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Obviously my sister is not a sister in any biological sense. We just felt in our hearts that we were sisters, and since we both agree on that, we are.
[2014/01/28 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: You know how Sl is, if you can imagine it, you make it reality.
[2014/01/28 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: (well sometimes it takes some technical skill as well)
[2014/01/28 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think a long term group of friends constitutes a group that fulfills the needs that in other times and cultures was similar to a family or a genetically related group.
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: So… Maybe I’ll have an extended family of a couple of Zobeid clones, a couple of robot servants, a genetically engineered furry snugglebunny…
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Second Life: Divalii is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Second Life: Divalii is online.
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: if you did, would you consider yourself posthuman, Zo?
[2014/01/28 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: errr?
[2014/01/28 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think a group also needs someone to bring in surprises or new ideas that you don’t control… no?
[2014/01/28 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see that scenario coming about unless we’ve crossed a lot of those thresholds first.
[2014/01/28 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: If you lived in a world where you could easily obtain everything you just mentioned, would YOU be so radically changed by this as to have become posthuman yourself?
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): Alas, rl calls and I need to leave a few minutes early. It was great being with you all and you did a great job Zo.
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): hope to see you all again soon
[2014/01/28 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Have a great evening Ari
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: We are dropping like flies…
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): be well and happy
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye dear
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: *huggggs*
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, Art… That’s why I said, I couldn’t see myself becoming a hermit and just being sealed up in the commune with my clones, robots, etc. That’s not the goal.
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Ari (arisia.vita): bye for a bit
[2014/01/28 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: We need to have Gywn here to tell us all that we are wrong…. heh
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah where is Gwynie?
[2014/01/28 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah… I wonder that too.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: She must be working
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Either that or computer problems.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Gosh, SL was horrid on Sunday!
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is that why I got booted? haha
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: No it just hates you.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually would be nice for travel, if I had another Zobeid to hold down the fort while I was gone.
[2014/01/28 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Feed the cat, etc. :/
[2014/01/28 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: aha! I knew it!
[2014/01/28 16:22]  Second Life: Ari (arisia.vita) is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t have Rod Humble to kick around anymore…. sigh
[2014/01/28 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have to hand it to Rodvik though, the performance of my SL experience is much improved in the last two years.
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo, if you were created in order to live for but a short while in order to fulfill some requirement of primary Zo…how would you feel about that?
[2014/01/28 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: bitter
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: who is in charge now, then? I did hear Botgirl is campaigning to be CEO…
[2014/01/28 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Like any slave
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Not the way I really imagined it working, Extie. But the minds *ought* to be synced or merged in some way.
[2014/01/28 16:23]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is online.
[2014/01/28 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Botgirl would get lost in philosophical speculation too easily…. heh
[2014/01/28 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Presumably, though, copy-Zo’s mind would be edited so that she welcomes her lot in life?
[2014/01/28 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: That sounds like a downgrade. :p
[2014/01/28 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: or, as Zo just said, she means something else entirely.
[2014/01/28 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is an interesting point to consider, when is a robot a slave?
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: when it desires freedom.
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d rather say they’re all equal and they are kept syncronized in some way, so their memories are merged (periodically, I guess) and they all keep the same personality.
[2014/01/28 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: So when it has self consciousness?
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: yes.
[2014/01/28 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: in other words, probably never.
[2014/01/28 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: When I said before that I imagined servant robots and RPP robots, I almost said “slave robots” instead of servant.
[2014/01/28 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the term robot actually means ;servant’ in some language?
[2014/01/28 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: I think you’re right…
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: from that old play ‘Rossum;s Universal Robots’.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: This discussion makes me think of the Spielberg movie A.I. Lots of interesting ideas there.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is offline.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Second Life: Sylfie Del Vanima (sylfie.minogue) is online.
[2014/01/28 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Economically speaking, we really should have robots that only work for the benefit of others.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well we have lots of war robots at the moment too.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: But it would be nice to also have some that are “real people” with desires of their own. So then you have to distinguish the two.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I did laugh when the post-human robots seek to bring back a human, so they can ask him or her the meaning of life. If it were me they brought back I would be like ‘hey, why are you asking ME? I thought YOU guys were supposed to figure that out!’.
[2014/01/28 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: The uncanny valley
[2014/01/28 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha!
[2014/01/28 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: yes
[2014/01/28 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: That movie is much better on second viewing
[2014/01/28 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Magicthighs and Vroomfondle will build a Great Computer to figure out the meaning of life!
[2014/01/28 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: vroomfondle… heh
[2014/01/28 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sex robots would have figured out that the meaning of life was great sex….
[2014/01/28 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: I did think it a bit dubious that the robotic team are given the challenge ‘make a robot which can love’ and they just go and do it like it is not particularly challenging.
[2014/01/28 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s all about gaming the rules, Extie.
[2014/01/28 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘oh right. Ok well we will just make an emotion chip I guess…’
[2014/01/28 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Love is complete acceptance with a desire to approve whatever behavior manifests itself.
[2014/01/28 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Worse case, you could create a chip that simulates emotional states… hormones, everything… Might not be the most efficient way to do it.
[2014/01/28 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Jude Law was easily my favourite character in AI. Him, and maybe that teddy…
[2014/01/28 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: We’ve already bred dogs for that, so why not burn it into silicon too? :/
[2014/01/28 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Over the last months I have definitely concluded that AI would need both positive and negative feedback of some kind included in order to have any motivations.
[2014/01/28 16:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Jude Law is kind of hunky, I’ll admit.
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Surely that teddy is not too far in the future? I want one! I would lose it on purpose so it could bug people with its incessant ‘are you taking me to Extie? Have you seen Extie? I am looking for Extie….’
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, we have gone our time, have we not?
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: yes we have..
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Poem!
[2014/01/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: btw zo can I post this discussion on me blog?
[2014/01/28 16:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting topic. I think it makes me think about what a family is. And what functions a family has.
[2014/01/28 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Don’t look at me. You know I’m poetry-deaf. Or something.
[2014/01/28 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Sure you can, Extie.
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