THINKERS DEC 10 2013: WHAT WILL WE NEED NOT LEARN IN THE FUTURE?

Extropia DaSilva: HEEEEEER’S THINKERS!
[2013/12/10 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: And today’s topic is…
[2013/12/10 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: What things that need to be learned now will not need to be learned in the future?
[2013/12/10 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Cursive writing
[2013/12/10 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: what is that?
[2013/12/10 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Too late ArtCrash, they’ve already quit teaching that.
[2013/12/10 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: non printing writing
[2013/12/10 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: typing will disappear
[2013/12/10 15:34]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): YOUR MSKING S BET THAT THE FUTURE WILL BE A LINEAR DEVELOPMENT OF THE PRESENT
[2013/12/10 15:34]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): sorry about the caps
[2013/12/10 15:35]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): you dont know how bad the future may be
[2013/12/10 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: I dunno about typing… though I can see it being used less.
[2013/12/10 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: How do you know that? We only just started.
[2013/12/10 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Driver’s ed?
[2013/12/10 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, we will need to relearn how to hunt ….. each other…. heh
[2013/12/10 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Zo that was the first one that popped into my head.
[2013/12/10 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are already transitioning away from typing to voice commands on computers.
[2013/12/10 15:36]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): i sometimes watch perry mason on TV
[2013/12/10 15:36]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): and see the world of 1960
[2013/12/10 15:36]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): if you asked them what would change and not change
[2013/12/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, but the future voice command interfaces will still be written by programmers behind a keyboard :9 Granted, most people probably won’t need one
[2013/12/10 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: How about the idea that we will no longer teach how to solve problems. We will be taught how to define them, because once that is done computers are so much more efficient at solving stuff, anyway?
[2013/12/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah! The absolute stupidification of the human species!
[2013/12/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like it, Extie 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:37]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): they would not have imiagined computers being so cheap or airplanes still being basicaly what they were in 1960\
[2013/12/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it seems that we’re taking that route indeed.
[2013/12/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So let me see… we won’t need to learn maths nor history
[2013/12/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: history can be googled
[2013/12/10 15:37]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): how about dead languages? ancient languages are teached at school. thinking about latin, which is somewhat still in use, at least in field of medicine
[2013/12/10 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: This suggests a difficult question, Nancie. Namely…what is it that We fail to imagine?
[2013/12/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we don’t need philosophy — what’+s teh point of learning to think,. when computers will think for us?
[2013/12/10 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think many are losing the skill of cooking their own food.
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good bye geography — we have GPS and context-based menus
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): thats the point
[2013/12/10 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sewing is mostly a lost skill
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): we cannot predict the future
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: do people learn how to cook at school? I didn’t! But I learned how to grow radfishes 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: I made blueberry pie today, BTW.
[2013/12/10 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t remember ‘at school’ being part of the question.
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I see it less about asking computers ti think for us and more about having computers do what they excell at, and so freeing our minds to do the things brains are good at.
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: languages will be dead. We’ll use Google Translate in real time, voice-operated
[2013/12/10 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we just need to speak one language.
[2013/12/10 15:39]  Tikor: Have any of you used symbolic algebra programs like Maple? It has caused me to forget algebra for the most part, but I still need to have a sense of what the right kind of answers are, because when you define the problem incorrectly, you get that incorrect answer. You need a feel for it still to get by.
[2013/12/10 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: interesting Tikor
[2013/12/10 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie, all the examples I gave, computers can do — today
[2013/12/10 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: I think any research skills not based upon Google or Wikipedia may languish. :/
[2013/12/10 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: In the same vein, programmers, don’t deal with direct lines of code as much as they deal with objects now.
[2013/12/10 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: OOP is just a passing fad. :p
[2013/12/10 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nobody deals with the base kernal programming at all any more.
[2013/12/10 15:42]  Second Life: Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) is online.
[2013/12/10 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Art, in Life On The Screen, Sherry Turkle likened computer use after the advent of windows as postmodern, because people see a surface reality of icons and dustbins and files and mouse pointers and never see the machine code language that is the fundamental reality.
[2013/12/10 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: once brain implants happen, control devices of all types will be obsolete. Buttons and knobs etc.
[2013/12/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, we will just think, and switches and buttons will turn on by their own
[2013/12/10 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: GUI-WIMP is starting to look old in the “post-PC era”.
[2013/12/10 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the mean time, a few people, rebelling against society, will insist to camp in the outdoors and read maps printed on paper and use a compass 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t type much at all into my smartphone anymore, I talk to it.
[2013/12/10 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: so…do you think schools teach kids what they need to know or are school’s stuck teaching topics that are not relevant or will not be when kids grow up?
[2013/12/10 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, they won’t get lost, unlike people who use Google
[2013/12/10 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Rhi! I always get lost when I have to print a map from Google hehe — no references!
[2013/12/10 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: Schools have always taught the things of the past that are not relevant anymore.
[2013/12/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I think that schools have taught the wrong things for decades now
[2013/12/10 15:45]  Tikor: I think schools are all over the map. There are a few that try and a few that are stuck in the past.
[2013/12/10 15:45]  Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2013/12/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’m sure that the education that Einstein got was quite appropriate 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, and that’s assuming they got it right; one time it would have taken me 80 miles out of my way, and the other time it landed me on the opposite side of a freeway than I w as supposed to be on. I w as stopped by the cops for being a suspicious character
[2013/12/10 15:45]  Tikor: For example, Maple was the programming language I learned calculus in, my school was pretty progressive that way. We had professors who consulted for the software company that made the program.
[2013/12/10 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uggh really, Rhi?!
[2013/12/10 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi!
[2013/12/10 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: I remember being required to memorize specific lines of poetry in my school years. This seemed to be relevant to the teacher, but in context was only relevant to her personal worldview.
[2013/12/10 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: do you still know them? 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, I can quote Shakespeare! haha
[2013/12/10 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘oh that I were a glove upon that hand so that I might touch that cheek’. Me too!
[2013/12/10 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m *very* conservative, and I think that schools should teach students general skills that they will use, no matter where they will work. Typical examples: philosophy; oratory/debating skills; philosophy (learning how to think); learning how to do a report and a presentation (yes, that’s why we did so many copies); history (specially history of science) to learn how humanity tackled problems and what solutions worked; etc.
[2013/12/10 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And probably, for the 2010s, a few extra languages as well
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The rest is mostly irrelevant. I mean, how many of you really need how to do logarithms, or remember what is the pH of water? 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, in the case of the public schools, I’ll settled for them being able to teach–anything. lol
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: How could philosophy possibly be useful??
[2013/12/10 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Take music as an example. Schools completely ignore modern music in their teaching. For example teaching a class in electric guitar would attract far more people than teaching a class in marching band.
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Learning how to think for yourself.
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Tikor: Gwy, what about a programming language? I’ve heard that even if you don’t use that particular one, it helps to learn the next one, like spoken languages.
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m sure there must be better ways to do that.
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: is that a philosophical question? ‘How can philosophy be useful’? Maybe they set that for philosophy 101?
[2013/12/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tikor: I’d think that quite useful, yes. Much more than learning about redox in chemistry classes
[2013/12/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Philosophy and logic is the groundwork to teach people to think for themselves.
[2013/12/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, governments hate that.
[2013/12/10 15:49]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): yes
[2013/12/10 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Tikor, I read just today that the majority of high schools in the USA have no computer programming classes at all.
[2013/12/10 15:49]  Tikor: Philosophy will help you protect yourself from bad ideas – examining your beliefs critically (by studying other’s beliefs) is a useful skill in life.
[2013/12/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Tikor
[2013/12/10 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Philosophy is useful because it teaches you to think clearly. And only when you can think clearly can you ask proper scientific questions.
[2013/12/10 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve seen very few examples from philosophy that seemed to me like thinking clearly.
[2013/12/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, you can’t really be a serious scientist without understanding philosophy; I learned that rather late in my life
[2013/12/10 15:50]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): askinf if a tree is a tree
[2013/12/10 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Usually it’s about starting from insane “assumptions” and drawing equally insane logical inferences from them.
[2013/12/10 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, it usually comes late in life–for a lot too late.
[2013/12/10 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Skeptical thinking is what I think needs to be taught. Instead what is taught is conformity to arbitrary rules.
[2013/12/10 15:50]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): is the basis of scientific world view
[2013/12/10 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: …unless you are a continental philosopher, in which case it teaches you to make your thoughts so obscure nobody knows what you are thinking;)
[2013/12/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I’m not saying to study a *specific* philosophy, but understanding what philosophy is *about*
[2013/12/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: skeptical thinking is positively part of any serious philosophy course 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, there’s got to be something broken at a lower level or philosophy wouldn’t spout out so much drivel.
[2013/12/10 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me thinks we should just go back to the trivium and the quadrivium and call it a day
[2013/12/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You get drivel on all fields of knowledge 😛
[2013/12/10 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘wereof we cannot speak, thereof we must remain silent’ is not drivel.
[2013/12/10 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say the word ‘philosophy’ would include thinking about your life and existence in such a way that it is not seen as fixed and ‘given’ but something to consider from various points of view.
[2013/12/10 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: This differentiated philosophy from dogma.
[2013/12/10 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: ates
[2013/12/10 15:53]  Second Life: Pooky Amsterdam is offline.
[2013/12/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A few weeks ago, I attended a conference about simulation and virtual worlds; they had a keynote speaker, who is a philosopher of science. He explained what philosophers are studying these days: in his case, what new methodologies are reasonable to accept for scientific knowledge acquisition. His own field of study was simulations, and of course he was glad about the 2013 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, which finally was awarded to a simulation
[2013/12/10 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: ..some philosophy, such as Wittgenstein who I quoted, is a study of the limitations language imposes on our ability to know the world as it really is.
[2013/12/10 15:53]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): yes
[2013/12/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Zo, you have a huge prejudice about what philosophers are supposed to be doing 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Extie
[2013/12/10 15:54]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): like science philosophy tells us what we do know and what we dont know
[2013/12/10 15:54]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): which is impotant
[2013/12/10 15:54]  Tikor: Epistemology?
[2013/12/10 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good point Extie.
[2013/12/10 15:54]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): and not something computers can do
[2013/12/10 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Well… In science ideas have to be tested, experience replicated, etc. In philosophy all you have to do is come up with a meme that effectively targets other philosophers and you’re golden.
[2013/12/10 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe philosophers who voice opinions on what consciousness is talk gibberish?
[2013/12/10 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need people to understand simple things, like why we cannot describe all rules of the universe. And not because they read it on a textbook, but because they were able to follow Gödel and his followers and reach the same conclusions
[2013/12/10 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: You can solve a lot of philosophical conundrums with linquistic analysis.
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that depends to whom you listen, Extie 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the school level, I’d worry less about “consciousness”
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but more about —
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ethics (a field of philsophy)
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: philosophy of science
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ontologies, epistemologies
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: reasoning models
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: logic
[2013/12/10 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: This takes us back to my point about defining problems. It is not the case in philosophy that you can write any old rubbish, You have to set out your argument in a very clear, very well defined manner.
[2013/12/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: history — why good ideas in the past simply don0’t apply today
[2013/12/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: etc
[2013/12/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: maybe even a bit of aesthetics — it never hurts
[2013/12/10 15:56]  Tikor: Extie: I am also a fan of explicit assumptions.
[2013/12/10 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Linguistic analysis: If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it make a sound. Tree + falling concepts imply the crash which makes a sound by definition of the original concepts.. So the answer is yes…. heh
[2013/12/10 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: what are those, Tikor?
[2013/12/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And leave the issue about consciousness and religion to advance studies at teh university level 😀
[2013/12/10 15:56]  Tikor: The first step to a clear, well defined argument.
[2013/12/10 15:57]  Second Life: Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) is offline.
[2013/12/10 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: But can we assume philosophy will still be taught in future?
[2013/12/10 15:57]  Tikor: The premise, the basis.
[2013/12/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes! Something that we sometimes even manage at Thinkers, Tikor 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:57]  Tikor: Yes, I’d like to assume so. Or at least not live a world that disagrees.
[2013/12/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no, if governments want their population to become drones in front of a TV and having robots doing everything
[2013/12/10 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Philosophy will always be around in some form, because dogmas don’t contain the answers that some seek. That said, some never question their dogmas.
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): your missing th point
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): what if people are drones
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re getting there. My roomie’s sister already spends most of her time in front of a TV and has a robot cleaning her home 😀
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: who is, Nancie?
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: People still watch TV?
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): what value is ther to having a lot of them
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s something that’ll probably go away…
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: more and more, unfortunately
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): to the rulers
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Tikor: I believe healthy human life, by itself, is valuable.
[2013/12/10 15:58]  Tikor: Ah, well, I’m no ruler
[2013/12/10 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Time specific TV viewing is heading towards extinction.
[2013/12/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, it is demeaning for a person to do a job that narrow AI can do.
[2013/12/10 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think so, Zo. Not unless you teach future generations about what happens to a mind that sees too much TV. And frankly, who wants to do *that* and dump a multi-billion business….
[2013/12/10 15:59]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): yes but its the price of computerization following mechanization and free trade
[2013/12/10 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I agree. But I disagree that teh solution is putting humans in front of TVs just because they are easier to control that way 🙂
[2013/12/10 15:59]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): what use except for low level service jobs do people have
[2013/12/10 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: I was thinking of getting rid of my satellite dish, I don’t think I’d miss it much.
[2013/12/10 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: The same idea about TV ruining minds was used in the nineteenth century to describe books.
[2013/12/10 16:00]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): economicaly ots destroying america now
[2013/12/10 16:00]  Mr. Yuk (6mr6yuk6): i like tv
[2013/12/10 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: the difference is that now we know what happens with both 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: what is, Nancie?
[2013/12/10 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: But that TV may have a games console plugged into it, and that person may be involved in some of the most artistically/scientifically and socially brilliant forms of the 21st century:)
[2013/12/10 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, sure, that’s not “TV”
[2013/12/10 16:01]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): the loss of manufacturing jobs to free trade and automation
[2013/12/10 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s just a screen connected to a games console 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: You mean they might read SF when they aren’t playing games, Extie? :/
[2013/12/10 16:01]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): and now knowledge jobs going to computrs
[2013/12/10 16:01]  Tikor: Nancie – that loss of jobs is to be celebrated! Escape from drudgery. It is our economic system that needs changed to free one from job dependence.
[2013/12/10 16:01]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): the few who control the computrs functions get almost all the weath growth
[2013/12/10 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was alluding to the global conspiracy of broadcasting mind-numbing entertainment to make people more pliable, Extie — that’s what I meant with “TV” 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: TV and computer will soon combine into ‘entertainment system’.
[2013/12/10 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Boo, Gwyn, I live for Oprah!
[2013/12/10 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: see? My point 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:02]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): yes but in all of human history people were valued for being productive
[2013/12/10 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: what I’m seeing is the reverse. Broadcating/networks are assimilating ‘entertainment’ but still distributing it under *their* control
[2013/12/10 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, there is the YouTube revolution going on in parallel
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we’ll see what happens.
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is online.
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually, I think of all the forms of entertainment I have, TV is the one I would miss least.
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): yes we will
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): and we may not like it
[2013/12/10 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: I talk to so many people who use their television screen only to view netfix and hulu from the internet.
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh sure, Art
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: …provided I still get to watch my DVDs and play my games..
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s what I meant before — not to confuse the screen with the broadcasting system
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): i remember Sf stories about beoples brains being wired to a grid and their bodies just going away
[2013/12/10 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha netfix… great typo
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: .D
[2013/12/10 16:03]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): that was theough of as terriable
[2013/12/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I think that if games replace broadcast TV too much….
[2013/12/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. governments and megacorps will use them instead to keep us dumb and useless.
[2013/12/10 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Nancie, Marshall Brain thinks it is an inevitable evolution of more realism in videogames and online worlds.
[2013/12/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TV was just so convenient for the past 70 or so years 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:04]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is offline.
[2013/12/10 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Full immersion controlled by governments and megacorps — the ultimate mind control
[2013/12/10 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Once internet 3d realistic porn becomes feasable, nobody will care about tv series. hahaha
[2013/12/10 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Get enslaved by day, spend the rest of your free time in an escapist dream of your own
[2013/12/10 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha Art 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:05]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): jobs an AI can do. like watching mind-numbing entertainment & commercials. perhaps TV watching bots could grow into a market that can really deliberate lots of people
[2013/12/10 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: he thinks we will one day have perfect avatar bodies which provide full sensory stimulii for our brains, and since those avatar bodies are so much better than our bio ones, we get rid of those and become ‘brains in jars’.
[2013/12/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Goodie 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: You would have thought I wrote that sentence but, no, it was Marshall.
[2013/12/10 16:06]  Tikor: Extie: I’d like to see that come to pass, but based on SL advancement I may not live to see it.
[2013/12/10 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, so far, those brains need to eat. So until that is solved….. heh
[2013/12/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not exactly a very original idea, Extie, but ok
[2013/12/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: IV drips, Art
[2013/12/10 16:07]  Tikor: Art: They need nutritious blood flow, a problem we can likely solve.
[2013/12/10 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. what Tikor just said
[2013/12/10 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes it is a lot like Robert Nozik’s famous philosophical thought experiment, ;the experience machine’.
[2013/12/10 16:07]  Tikor: But as for perfect avatar bodies, no, I’ll probably always want a nicer outfit =p
[2013/12/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: In Sci Fi, the brain in jar creatures of the future are always vulnerable because they lack bodies.
[2013/12/10 16:07]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is online.
[2013/12/10 16:08]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): dont be so vain 😀
[2013/12/10 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: In War Of The World’s the martians were just big brains and they built bodies to suit their needs.
[2013/12/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha! We will always have insatisfaction and envy…
[2013/12/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “gosh your avatar body is so much better than mine, how did you manage to buy it?”
[2013/12/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, no, ‘brains in jars’ will definitely not get rid of everything that plagues humankind :=)
[2013/12/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We will just have completely different worries and frustrations
[2013/12/10 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: To me what defines human wants and needs always comes down to the body and its drives and feedback systems. Taste, Smell, sight, emotions of all sorts, sex drive etc. Outside of that motivations fail.
[2013/12/10 16:09]  Tikor: Better than first world problems? Like virtual world problems? I’d like to see that meme.
[2013/12/10 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: It would make for a head spinning moment to have the body your brain-in-a-jar controls look at the brain-in-a jar. You know…where are ‘you’?
[2013/12/10 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if you fully simulate those feedback systems….
[2013/12/10 16:10]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): is there a fashion line for brain jars? colored glasses, artistical shapes
[2013/12/10 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: I read somewhere that psychopaths tend to focus on immediate physical gratifications.
[2013/12/10 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. GOOD question, Extie 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, But it was Daniel Denett’s not mine.
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): you know we evolved to live in rl and be productive and deal with the material world
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: and the rest of humankind as well, the difference being that we don’t boast about it publicly 😛
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Brains tend to deteriorate over time. It would be sad if we all end up as more-and-more demented brains controlling more-and-more perfect avatars.
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extoe: nah, that question certainly predates ‘brains in jars’ 🙂 Trust me 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: yes Nancie. That is why SL, which could look like anything, looks like RL. It is what we are used to.
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh what an excellent prediction, Zo
[2013/12/10 16:11]  Tikor: Zo: Yes, we should solve the aging problem.
[2013/12/10 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t forget that pleasure is only measured against its lack. Things are defined by their opposites. You can’t have one sided things and maintain motivation or drive or desire.
[2013/12/10 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, it’s almost true. Thanks to science, we can have incredibly functioning bodies at 110 but have Alzheimer for half our lives. Ironic, isn’t it?
[2013/12/10 16:12]  Tikor: Art: I stubbornly hold to the idea that objective, rather than just subjective, measures exist. But perhaps I’m just hopeful.
[2013/12/10 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it would quite suit me to become more beautiful in the future and more prone to say totally crazy things;)
[2013/12/10 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘Oh god, Extie is off again….’
[2013/12/10 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/12/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: a good definition of pleasure is the moment when a certain insatisfaction disappears and the period until a new insatisfaction sets in. So i agree with your definition 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extoe: heh
[2013/12/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, brains in jars will have completely different things to be frustrated about
[2013/12/10 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: It’s like yin and yang, man….. takes another toke…..
[2013/12/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like thinking about a better interface which gives better feedback in terms of pleasure/pain 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:14]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): creating one to one perfect copies keeps at least data storages young. dont know how far it would suits us here, beeing able to copy a complete brain (and not only single thoughts, as we are capable now)
[2013/12/10 16:14]  Tikor: Gwyn: I’d like some filters on that interface!
[2013/12/10 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: so if you were a brain in a jar, what would you no longer need to learn? Conversely, what would you need to learn that was not needed to be taught when you were a meatbag?
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Tikor: So in this brains-in-jars future, what does education look ike?
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “dang, if I could just afford the next Apple TrueBody™ interface instead of being stuck with this open source BasicBody stuff…”
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Tikor: ha, Extie beat me to it.
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, again, depends on the society we’re in
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Assuming a society with some freedom to think, then learning how to think will be crucial
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Tikor: I think ‘avatar maintenance’ would be a new thing to know.
[2013/12/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because a brain in the jar will mostly be doing that 😀
[2013/12/10 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: You would not need to learn how to apply lipstick because just willing it would make your lips take on whatever color you wish. Now, if that is not utopia, what is?
[2013/12/10 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: What motivates someone? I would say the body’s feedback system. What would motivate and Artificial Intelligence?
[2013/12/10 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: an
[2013/12/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, as well as learning how to be a good consumer: knowing to filter through marketing, spam, junk, etc to get a good body interface 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:16]  Second Life: Dejah Thoris (bobbi1969.melodie) is offline.
[2013/12/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I happen to *like* to apply lipstick 😛
[2013/12/10 16:17]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): not just one
[2013/12/10 16:17]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): circus artists spend much time for learning the motorical fine control needed for their profession. You still will not get rid of that as a jar. It even gets worse, since you need to know about how to move different avatar models
[2013/12/10 16:17]  Tikor: How to find the best virtual experiences – we’d all be a little travel agent I think.
[2013/12/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: a lot is related to teh body, sure — e.g. food, shelter, reproduction
[2013/12/10 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah! If you were a brain in a jar you would need to be more on the look out for real versus false memories. cuz, I think brains in jars would be more ‘hackable’.
[2013/12/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But there are also abstract motivations, like power
[2013/12/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tikor: yes
[2013/12/10 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: never install on your brain security certificates from the French government 😉
[2013/12/10 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Non.
[2013/12/10 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): could cert revocations kill people, then?
[2013/12/10 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: So Extie, it seems that you are suggesting that the key to motivation is similar to Nietzche’s ‘Will to Power’. What does an AI need with power? (except in the electronic sense…heh)
[2013/12/10 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: i’d say, brains in a jar will still get motivated by power, fame, greed, reputation, etc
[2013/12/10 16:19]  Tikor: This thought problem is reminding me just how much of our education is focused on future employment.
[2013/12/10 16:19]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): when your in yout=r brian bottles and there are just a few people and robots maintaing the system reaslly care that its woth keeping you all alive just to flow electrons
[2013/12/10 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Power: teh ability to manipulate others and make them what you wish them to do, e.g. getting benefits
[2013/12/10 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually Art I have made no comment on the topic of AI and motivation. Not here at this point in time, anyway.
[2013/12/10 16:19]  Tikor: Take that away and I’m left with “play cool games in virtual worlds and learn how to think”
[2013/12/10 16:19]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they will for sure crave for any methods of escapism. Figures, if you are locked into a jar
[2013/12/10 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In a word, the main motivation is getting happy 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: escapism will be second nature to brains in a jar 😉
[2013/12/10 16:20]  Tikor: Perhaps even first nature!
[2013/12/10 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: If you want to give AI motivation, copy the brain of somebody who is motivated.
[2013/12/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One might even say that it’s second nature in brains in an organic fluid that we happen to call ‘body’ but that’s another story….
[2013/12/10 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Why do they need to escape if there is nothing to escape from?
[2013/12/10 16:20]  Tikor: Art: escape from boredom
[2013/12/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because most people don’t know how to entertain themselves, and boredom will still create suffering for a brain in a jar
[2013/12/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tikor: you beat me to it hehehehehe
[2013/12/10 16:21]  Tikor: Jinx!
[2013/12/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2013/12/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me hands Tikor her brain in a jar. Pickled.
[2013/12/10 16:21]  Tikor: If brains-in-jars is like solitary confinement, then don’t sign me up.
[2013/12/10 16:21]  Tikor: That’s what I’d be escaping from.
[2013/12/10 16:21]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a cute design shape for a brain jar would be a skull made from bone materials
[2013/12/10 16:22]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): purely fashion related
[2013/12/10 16:22]  Tikor: *hooks Gywns brain to the machine* Liiiive!
[2013/12/10 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say you’d be able to communicate with *anybody*, instantly, at any time…. wait… that’s what we have with mobile phones 😉
[2013/12/10 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: In The Matrix they tried to make a perfect world and people’s minds rejected it as a dream they had to wake up from. So the Matrix was rebooted to reflect the messy world with all its conflicts and troubles that we know today.
[2013/12/10 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: As I think about it, any successful AI would need to include systems of positive and negative feedback. Then and only then can they have motivation.
[2013/12/10 16:22]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): in classical greece. to be agathos or useful was the highest complement of the elite hoplite warriors
[2013/12/10 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, it made for a better movie that way.
[2013/12/10 16:22]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): a life where you are not useful
[2013/12/10 16:22]  Nancie Whitelight (carolyn.criadic): is it woth living
[2013/12/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: we’re so conditioned to accept faults, that we expect it to be natural (but actually that’s part of our survival instinct, e.g. Eskimos adapt to thinking that living with low temperatures is ‘normal’) 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:23]  Tikor: Zo: It also makes for better games. RPG elements in our modern day MMOs do not provide the utopia described in the matrix to the common player, though being a GM is considerably closer.
[2013/12/10 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: People are problem solvers. Once there are no problems left to solve, what is the point of living?
[2013/12/10 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Tikor, can an AI know what boredom is without defining it and allowing it?
[2013/12/10 16:23]  Tikor: But, my nicer outfit is a perennial problem.
[2013/12/10 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Nancie, “usefullness” sounds healthier then some warrior cults craving for self destruction
[2013/12/10 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Kismet got bored. Or at least, was programed to display the behavioral signs of boredom.
[2013/12/10 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, I have seen a lot of approaches to AI that work that way. In fact, my own work is made way simpler if I can motivate intelligent agents with simple things 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:24]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): people who seek war should get a close examination for signs of suicidal tendencies
[2013/12/10 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: An AI would have to define boredom in terms of lack of non boredom. And therefore bring boredom into existence for itself.
[2013/12/10 16:24]  Tikor: Nancie – I think a life without usefulness is still worthwhile, but I’m in that ‘healthy life has meaning on it’s own’ camp.
[2013/12/10 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well said, Tikor! Because who defines what is ‘useful’ anyway? Society.
[2013/12/10 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So ‘useful’ is just a mental construct, a concept, shared nby a society
[2013/12/10 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, I think that the major issue facing brains in jars is boredom,
[2013/12/10 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: as it seems to be what happens in the Western world anyway
[2013/12/10 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): having no set goal makes some sort of ultimate freedom, on the other hand.
[2013/12/10 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most people of the current and previous generation lost the ability to entertain themselves
[2013/12/10 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: Tikor, in humans there are huge numbers of body feedback systems that give life meaning. The more I think about this the more I become convinced that AI would need to invent those feedback systems for itself in order to change or progress.
[2013/12/10 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the next generation will be even worse — they completely rely on devices and gadgets to entertain them
[2013/12/10 16:27]  Tikor: Art – I’d be happy if AI only progressed when we wanted it to. Less existential risk that way.
[2013/12/10 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, another point for the future school system: learn to entertain yourself
[2013/12/10 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: People tend to be afraid of freedom and afraid of free will. They may not say so, but their actions suggest otherwise. It is just easier to claim you are not in full control of your own life. Pass the buck!
[2013/12/10 16:28]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): how about drugs as entertainment?
[2013/12/10 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: as said before, that’s true for basic motivations; but more abstract motivations exist which are just faintly connected to biofeedback
[2013/12/10 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Tikor, the problem with AI has always been what kind of initial conditions do you set for it before it takes off….
[2013/12/10 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: oh yes! So very true…..
[2013/12/10 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: why not 🙂 but it’s still a form of escapism where you rely on things beyond yourself to get entertained
[2013/12/10 16:28]  Tikor: luisa – So long as no permanent health issues arise, I’d be all for it. Unfortunately we have all kinds of nasty things happen with casual drug use…
[2013/12/10 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Do you think drugs would be safer if they were tailor-made via biotechnology just for you?
[2013/12/10 16:29]  Tikor: Extie – With great power comes great responsibility! I’m happy to shoulder that in exchange for free will. If it’s not happening it is because I’m not doing it!
[2013/12/10 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I certainly have no idea 🙂
[2013/12/10 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they would be medical safe, but the problem stays. there’s no entertainment from the substance itself. it’s just powder, liquid or funerables
[2013/12/10 16:30]  Tikor: Extie – yes, if we could ever figure out which subgroups have what adverse reactions to which drugs and could classify people to avoid those reactions drugs would not only be safer but more effecatious.
[2013/12/10 16:30]  Tikor: It is a terribly difficult statistical problem, however, complicated by the placebo effect.
[2013/12/10 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess we ought to do a Thinkers about drugs some day 😉
[2013/12/10 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So long as we start by defining what a ‘drug’ is.
[2013/12/10 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some of what we see as ‘our choice’ is actually chemical systems in the body reacting to stimuli. Things like sexual attraction for instance. Sometimes the free in free will is tempered by other things.
[2013/12/10 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: On the subject of free will. I love Daniel Dennett’s thought experiment where somebody undergoing surgery has been told their free will was removed as a result. So they go around robbing and stuff, because after all they are not responsible. But then they are told it was just a joke this ;your free will has been taken away’.
[2013/12/10 16:32]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): however, some artists did fuelled their creativity by altering theirperception. an artificial beeing will have way finer controllable methods for that, then humans have
[2013/12/10 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You cannot have free will if you’re conditioned buy your emotions 😉
[2013/12/10 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *by
[2013/12/10 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: one minute left for this weird meandering through goodness knows what topic, folks!
[2013/12/10 16:32]  Tikor: Extie – sort of like what happens when folks think they’re the instrument of god?
[2013/12/10 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: I can vouch for ‘altered perception’ increasing artistic sensibilities! haha
[2013/12/10 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: pothead!
[2013/12/10 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a difference between ‘free will’ and ‘doing whatever you please against society’s norms’ — someone who truly has free will can *opt* to follow society’s norms, because they see their advantages clearly
[2013/12/10 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: that is it! my time is up! Went fast, huh?
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