THINKERS NOVEMBER 05 2013: MASTERING THE GENETIC CODE

Extropia DaSilva: ..So thinking caps back on, good people, Thinkers is back in session!
[2013/11/05 15:31]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Hello Everyone.
[2013/11/05 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is….
[2013/11/05 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Hey Art, umm… Astrid, even.
[2013/11/05 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WE MASTER THE GENETIC CODE?
[2013/11/05 15:32]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Hi there thinkererers
[2013/11/05 15:32]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *points to self* This basically
[2013/11/05 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: What happens is, there is no life which is not technology.
[2013/11/05 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Everybody freaks out!
[2013/11/05 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: And then patent themselves.
[2013/11/05 15:33]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I usually say that people who don’t belive in nanotech should look in the mirror.
[2013/11/05 15:33]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): The first thing would be to extend life indefinitely
[2013/11/05 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: the freaking out would happen before, no? A civilization which has mastered the genetic code has already gotten past the ethical issues, no?
[2013/11/05 15:33]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Fully developed genetic tech is basic first stage nanotech.
[2013/11/05 15:33]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We’re already in the freak out.
[2013/11/05 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I dunno… A lot of new technology causes freakouts when it first appears.
[2013/11/05 15:34]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s been going on for over a decade.
[2013/11/05 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Railroads: Your heart will stop and you will DIE when it reaches the incredible speed of 60 MPH!
[2013/11/05 15:34]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I’m guessing the first thing to go would be genetically causes diseases.
[2013/11/05 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: But we are already at the stage of learning the genetic code, and, as Val pointed out, there is a lot of concern.
[2013/11/05 15:35]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): In this case, people are becoming more and more oblivious to exactly how far and how fast we are going
[2013/11/05 15:35]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ‘elloes!
[2013/11/05 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: hi!
[2013/11/05 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, the fight over GM foods is already well underway.
[2013/11/05 15:35]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And meaningless.
[2013/11/05 15:36]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Except the fight to limit genetic modified foods is losing to the speed of adoption
[2013/11/05 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Could we have the kind of body morphing Val anticipates with the level of anxiety we see with GM food?
[2013/11/05 15:36]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s arguing who should have locked the door after the cows escaped.
[2013/11/05 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s not meaningless to all the people who starved in Nigeria because their govt wouldn’t accept GM food aid supplies.
[2013/11/05 15:37]  Second Life: Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) is online.
[2013/11/05 15:38]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): While I can almost agree, there are so many other factors involved there beyond just the governments, particularly who is profiting most by preventing those supplies from being delivered.
[2013/11/05 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: so do you think personal gene modifcation machines..MolecuMacs, if you like, will be as ubiquitous as the pc and smart phone?
[2013/11/05 15:38]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): At first? No.
[2013/11/05 15:38]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I wonder if down the line when you can add anything you want via genetics if the human form would be kept as is, or would fashion start to change it.
[2013/11/05 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: I would love something like that Extie, but it’s a long road to get there from here.
[2013/11/05 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah but this discussion is not about the near term.
[2013/11/05 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Just look at SL for some idea about that, Astrid.
[2013/11/05 15:39]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’ll start as a “medical procedure.” then move to a “Salon” before finally moving to homes.
[2013/11/05 15:39]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I think that the need for metals in construction materials would disappear after the code is mastered.
[2013/11/05 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: OO you mean homes are grown?
[2013/11/05 15:39]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Eventually, it will be integrated into your own body.
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: You can be, to a large extent, whatever you want here. So… Do some av-watching. (And then weep!)
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): The materials would be as stronger than steel and yes, grown.
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yes, Home can be grown.
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Yo ucould design a seed to basically mature into a fully functional home.\
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Like we could make carbon fiber type things genetically.
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: That would take time, though. A tree takes an awful long time to mature. I would not want to wait many hundreds of years for my mansion to grow from a nut.
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: I often find my self tempted to IM someone: “Pardon me, but you realize your av looks like crap? I just thought someone should tell you.”
[2013/11/05 15:40]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’ve discussed then a long time ago on Sci.nano
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: New hair, Rhi?
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): You could manipulate the code to grow it in a week.
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: But then I think better, and hold my tongue/keyboard.
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Remember we have mastered the code, right?
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, oh, thank you for ~noticing~
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Woe betide you of I ever get that IM, Zo!
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me pats her hair on the side of her head
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Basiclly the seed would be a small nanofactory, and would mine the ground for carbon to make the ohouse from
[2013/11/05 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi!
[2013/11/05 15:42]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): You don’t need nano tech to do things genetically.
[2013/11/05 15:42]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Or the air for that matter.
[2013/11/05 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, this discussion is about a world where we are as skilled with programming with the genetic code as we now are at programing with computers.
[2013/11/05 15:42]  Second Life: Aurora Kitaj is offline.
[2013/11/05 15:42]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Nano is Gene tech. Thats what most people overlook.
[2013/11/05 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Zoe!
[2013/11/05 15:43]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): DNA is a MOLECULAR MACHINE.
[2013/11/05 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): When I used an alt, once, someone told me it looked like crap
[2013/11/05 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Possibly you may not even need to be skilled at the actual programing because there are the equivilent of Windows and graphic user interfaces that makes it childsplay.
[2013/11/05 15:44]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): There is no difference in function. Only an artificial division people pretend exists.
[2013/11/05 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I think I’ll just start taking snapshots of them, and set up a Hall of Shame. No names. :/
[2013/11/05 15:44]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): So we have little need for mining and oil, because we can make the things we make from those products now in a different way.
[2013/11/05 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, you are a little devil, aren’t you?
[2013/11/05 15:44]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): We would still have need to carbon though… heh, so maybe coal mining would still be major.
[2013/11/05 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: There is a difference between bionano and Drexler;s molecular machines, though. They are diamandoid and DNA and proteins are not.
[2013/11/05 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: It could be like cakewrecks.com… except for avs instead of cakes.
[2013/11/05 15:45]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Why, we have Giga tons of carbon in the air.
[2013/11/05 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): /me imagines a blue screen crash, genetic code style
[2013/11/05 15:46]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): But that isn’t a long term solution, because carbon dioxide in the air is necessary for regulating the climate both ways.
[2013/11/05 15:46]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Extie, we’ve had that talk before. Even Eric points out his ENGINES is a thought design, not a final.
[2013/11/05 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: we shall continue to have the talk until everybody learns the lesson, Val;)
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): What’s all this about talking about things before. Thinkers is about rehashing things FOREVER! haha
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And hi Astrid, luisa Gwyn, Mr. Yuk, Stranger; I think that’s the list of everyone who hasn’t said hi to me.
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We’ve also got gigatons in land fill, and evironmental cleanups, etc. Not to mention it will be recycled.
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Planets. Does colonization become easier once the genetic code is mastered?
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Now I can’t say hi on principle! haha
[2013/11/05 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hi Rhi! get cozy
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Stranger Nightfire: hello Rhi
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, you’ll eventually learn that Rhi is The One Who Must Be Greeted.
[2013/11/05 15:47]  Mr. Yuk (6mr6yuk6): hi rhiannon
[2013/11/05 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: (BTW Zo’s planned website sounds rather like the much misses Regretsy).
[2013/11/05 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you mean space colonization? You bet it word
[2013/11/05 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: yes, I mean that.
[2013/11/05 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, my feelings are easily hurt; and I’ve been excluded from groups before
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): So I have noticed that this anim makes me type sideways.
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): A major assumption that too many people have is that things get “used up.” With the tech we’re talking about, the same lump of carbon could be your car, and your boat, and your plane, and you table, and you motorcycle, and a dozen dresses, etc. It will only have foarm WHILE it is being used.
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: You will never be excluded from this group, Rhi! I give you my word!
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Leonard Magnifico: Greetings to all 🙂
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello!
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Leonard
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Come and join the discussion:)
[2013/11/05 15:49]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): It is interesting that thinking about this, when we are making many things from C H O and N we would need a LOT of carbon.
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We HAVE a lot of carbon.
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): haha
[2013/11/05 15:50]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hi Stranger and Leonard … we should mention the Toppic, for the arrivals, I think
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: oh…
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: topic is..
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It’s one of the most abundant elements on earth
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WE MASTER THE GENETIC CODE?
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In fact, isn’t that supposed to be what dooms us? Our carbon footprint. So let’s turn all of that into good use
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): We only have a finite amount of carbon actually
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: I wouldn’t worry about carbon, we’ve still got lots of coal.
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): looking at the long long term picture
[2013/11/05 15:50]  Stranger Nightfire: hello luisa
[2013/11/05 15:51]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Really? We’ve barely tapped 2% of the Earths total volume.
[2013/11/05 15:51]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): well, after that we will have open code databases, where one can download functional samples. thinks to add to a bean stalk, for example, to modify it’s type of growth
[2013/11/05 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Astrid, well, there are 8,8 billion earthlike planets out there on last estimate. I’d say it will be a while before we run out of carbon
[2013/11/05 15:51]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Open your mind to the future. past that
[2013/11/05 15:51]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you would be able to built plants using basic building blocks?
[2013/11/05 15:51]  Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2013/11/05 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, oh, i *love* to play with basic building blocks. I’ll fit right in
[2013/11/05 15:52]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I guess you can get carbon out of Limestone, so that would be a much larger source for the far future.
[2013/11/05 15:52]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’ve discussed a “Gene machine” which would basically contain all the knowledge of genetics, all yo would have to do is mix and match feature”
[2013/11/05 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Well in the long term, a trivial amount of mass, say the equivalent of a handful of dirt, would when converted to computronium give you enough computing power to build vast, vast online worlds. Like, ones with a population much greater than Earth’s theoretical capacity. So we have plenty of material to work with.
[2013/11/05 15:53]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): regarding the running out of things … this is more mindset dependant. some peple can run out of anything, regardless of how much supply there originally is. the greediness issue
[2013/11/05 15:53]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Like any high level interface, it does the hard work, so all you have to do is play with it.
[2013/11/05 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Given energy, almost anything can be recycled. Except fissionables. And helium.
[2013/11/05 15:53]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Well the variables of the gene machine would be near infinite. I think at least at first you would have to look at nature for the basic parts and processes.
[2013/11/05 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Would mastering the genetic code make us far more efficient at using our resources?
[2013/11/05 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes!
[2013/11/05 15:54]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): probably yes
[2013/11/05 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, more efficient how? My initial thought was maybe it would and maybe it wouldn’t
[2013/11/05 15:54]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): brb
[2013/11/05 15:55]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Basically assume that in the not so distant future, we could make a human who recycles 90% of their consumption internally and only NEEDS to eat occassionally.
[2013/11/05 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We would need to understand how it works first….
[2013/11/05 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: After 4 billion years of evolution why should we be able to come along and make thins vastly more efficient?
[2013/11/05 15:55]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We WASTE most of what we eat.
[2013/11/05 15:55]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Because NATURE could not shut the system down to UPGRADE.
[2013/11/05 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t; I feed my left overs to my dog
[2013/11/05 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): (And yes, I knew what you meant; I’m just being silly)
[2013/11/05 15:56]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Look at the Human eye. It’s ridiculous. Our optic nerve goes THROUGH the retina.
[2013/11/05 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Evolution isn’t driven by efficiency. Or at least, it doesn’t measure efficiency the same way.
[2013/11/05 15:56]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Same with the digestive tract.
[2013/11/05 15:57]  Second Life: Xa Marlin is offline.
[2013/11/05 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: A wild fruit tree is efficient at surviving and reproducing, not so efficient at producing fruit for us.
[2013/11/05 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: It seems odd that we waste most of what we eat. I understand our ancestors lived in times of scarcity so I would imagine bodies which evolved to extract maximum nutrition from what food was available.
[2013/11/05 15:57]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And I wrote not so long ago about the people with jet pumps who don’t even HAVE functional hearts, like Cheney
[2013/11/05 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: I do know the food industry wastes most of what it produces.
[2013/11/05 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s not odd at all.
[2013/11/05 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: No?
[2013/11/05 15:58]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): back
[2013/11/05 15:58]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It worked. We could design one a hundred thousand times more efficient.
[2013/11/05 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that the problem right now is to figure out what possible side-effects would result if we changed some of the eye parameters, for example…
[2013/11/05 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: We have a strong instinct to eat what’s in front of us, on our plates. But the “food industry” is not in front of us. The instinct is not triggered.
[2013/11/05 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: (you heard it here, folks. Cheney does not have a heart)
[2013/11/05 15:59]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): For example, a “stomach” that breaks down EVERYTHING to atoms. then makes exactly what compounds we need.
[2013/11/05 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me is reminded by Valkyrie’s comments of Nomad in star Trek. ‘I will commence repair.’
[2013/11/05 15:59]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hopefully efficience still includes tastyness, and some hundred years of food preparition culture
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We could also recycle 90% of our blood wastes the same way, and virtually eliminate the need to eat constantly.
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because DNA is not linear! It’s not like a softwrae programme…
[2013/11/05 16:00]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if we end up on vitamine-protein drinks merely, it would not be worth it
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I think any changes to human genetics would be incremental. JUst a few changes at a time.
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: If we have mastered the genetic code I would imagine we would not compromise on great taste and long shelf life, like we do now.
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We could Actually ENJOY eating, instead of being driven by it.
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Have some soylent, Luisa! Yummm!
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dang, chat lag. I need to use another viewer 😛
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: brb
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I would rather have the need to be less efficient and be able to eat MORE! heh
[2013/11/05 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I enjoy eating; what with MSG and ketchup
[2013/11/05 16:01]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is offline.
[2013/11/05 16:01]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): yucky stuff! it’s green … 😦
[2013/11/05 16:01]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): So imagine a leasurely feast once a day vs McDonalds
[2013/11/05 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_(food_substitute)
[2013/11/05 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: yes Astrid. We begin with eliminating killer genetic diseases and eventually ‘progress’ to designer people built to improve over the basic model not just repair a faulty one.
[2013/11/05 16:01]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Why not a leisurely feast twice a day?
[2013/11/05 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I try to feast at least 3 times a day, personally
[2013/11/05 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I already refuse to go near McDonalds. 😛
[2013/11/05 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, I no longer like McDeath burgers; since having to cut out salt, I find all fast foods just plain too salty. Except Dairy Queen, that is
[2013/11/05 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Zob, proximity is not the issue … just try to keep their products out of ones throat 🙂
[2013/11/05 16:02]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *giggle* you could eat as much as you like. you just wouldn’t NEED to. Nor could you build up fat, beyond what you personally desire to have.
[2013/11/05 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, salt… Don’t get me started on salt. :p
[2013/11/05 16:03]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And you would no longer have to care WHAT  you ate either.
[2013/11/05 16:03]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Every time we talk about high tech providing for our needs, I realize how politically unready we are for such things. Our economy is based on competition for scarce things and people being paid for producing those things.
[2013/11/05 16:04]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): A nanostomach could digest pure poison without harm.
[2013/11/05 16:04]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And that economy is FALLING APART because we no longer have SCARCITY.
[2013/11/05 16:04]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): economy could be reshaped, of course. that is not a given, but a social construct
[2013/11/05 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: You know… It would be ironic if we gained complete control over the structure of our bodies only for everyone to upload into robots and/or VR shortly afterwards.
[2013/11/05 16:04]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): We have scarcity of income for workers.
[2013/11/05 16:05]  Mr. Yuk (6mr6yuk6): maybe tech could eliminate scarcity
[2013/11/05 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I think Val means no true scarcity.
[2013/11/05 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Astrid, well, that was Marx’s thought originally–technology would eventually outstrip our economics, and the only system compatible with total abundance would be communism
[2013/11/05 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So we have at least one vision as to what will happen with technology eliminating scarcity
[2013/11/05 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That should prepare us.
[2013/11/05 16:05]  Stranger Nightfire: yeah Astrid, it is like when I was growing up and all the talk was about the crisis in leisure time, what we would do with all the spare time we had in the future
[2013/11/05 16:05]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Communism relies on production of the workers, Rhi.
[2013/11/05 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s a flawed and outdated vision. I’m sure we can come up with something better.
[2013/11/05 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Take food. We do produce enough to fill the stomachs of every person on Earth. So the fact that many go hungry is not due to an inability to produce food but an unwillingness to distribute it fairly. Amazingly, countries like India which have many starving people are net EXPORTERS of food!
[2013/11/05 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: We don’t need the Great Computer churning out five year plans.
[2013/11/05 16:07]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We have artifically created scarcity designed to prevent the loss of value of the top tiers “wealth”
[2013/11/05 16:07]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Well when there is no work left for people. Where do they get their income. And if they have no income, is all provided by government?
[2013/11/05 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Astrid, no, you’re thinking of socialism. Once capitalism collapses completely, then everyone is free to produce or not produce. MInd you, this takes a really advanced technology to pull it off (at least replicators and robots), so Marx was a little optimistic about steampunk being all we needed
[2013/11/05 16:07]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ones there are self replicating, self planting potatoes that when ripe crawl out of the soil, falling into cutted stripes … we just would have to frie them, add salt, and maybe ketchup 😀
[2013/11/05 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: You tax the hell out of the robot corporations and use the money raised to fund lifelong pensions, Art.
[2013/11/05 16:08]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): One reason I say the current economic system of coporations is doomed. They are killing their “consumers” with each layoff
[2013/11/05 16:08]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/11/05 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: But you need AGI to truly kill jobs, otherwise all you get is technology that creates new jobs as it kills others.
[2013/11/05 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, we’d be past the five year plans–that again was the socialist phase, and a flawed version of it, as it tried to bypass the capitalist phase, which, for Marx, was neither possible nor desirable. He thought trying it might result in something like, well, what Stalin did. lol
[2013/11/05 16:08]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And we are already developing “the means of production” for the individual. 3D printers.
[2013/11/05 16:09]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): which will eventually become nanofactories.
[2013/11/05 16:09]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): There is no such thing as objective ‘phases’. There is only problem and solution.
[2013/11/05 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that a bit like saying lifts will eventually become space elevators, Val?
[2013/11/05 16:09]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And Watson is AGI Extie. And becoming more so.
[2013/11/05 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Is not.
[2013/11/05 16:10]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): what makes me nervous, concerned even is humanitys habit of population growth. population can exponentially fill out each and every given space. in results of always running out of resources! they key component would be birth rate control
[2013/11/05 16:10]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It is a functional AGI engine.
[2013/11/05 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, or warp drive. lol
[2013/11/05 16:10]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I have discussed this with Ben Goertzel. It’s basic, and not fully functional, but it is a useful AGI system.
[2013/11/05 16:11]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): luisa, it has been proven that education results in birth control. So the problem is to keep the population educated.
[2013/11/05 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not believe it is. Can it learn anything an average person can without being programmed?
[2013/11/05 16:11]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It will eliminate enormous numbers of skilled jobs soon.
[2013/11/05 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Astrid, well, again, Marx thought about that. There would be no income, no hell below us, above us only sky…oh, wait, that was Lenin. No, Lennon.
[2013/11/05 16:12]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It doesn’t need to Extie. It can be programmed to be an EXPERT in any heirarchal rule based skill.
[2013/11/05 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: It may be very good at winning quiz shows but can it turn its hand to something else entirely, like playing football?
[2013/11/05 16:12]  Second Life: Steampunkables (joey.aboma) is online.
[2013/11/05 16:12]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): YOu mean soccer? heh
[2013/11/05 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, as long as it doesn’t play hockey, I ccan live with it
[2013/11/05 16:12]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Why would it need to?  When it can be an Attorney, an Accountant, a Nurse, or a Doctor?
[2013/11/05 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It will probably be all of those.
[2013/11/05 16:13]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Highly paid SKILLED labor, replaced by software.
[2013/11/05 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Marx said we’d be all of those (except maybe an attorney) in communism–why should the AI be any different?
[2013/11/05 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: You see, the difference AGI makes is this: With any other technology there are skills which it is not suited for, and you can make your living with jobs in those areas. But an AGI of equal level to you can do ANYTHING you can do, so any job you are suited for, it is too. Plus, it is a robot and so is better (will work for no pay 24/7).
[2013/11/05 16:14]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): We humans are going to become a race of creators. We won’t have to option to be worker drones anymore.
[2013/11/05 16:14]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Another topic comes to mind for a future thinkers. How would an artificial intelligence be motivated? We are motivated by emtions and chemical drives. By internal payoffs. How could that happen with artificial intelligence?
[2013/11/05 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: We’ve wandered far from our topic…
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): What motive does it need beyond “Serve humanities desires?”
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): That is just a suggestion for a future thinkers btw.
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Easy. AI that cannot be bothered would not survive long in the job market.
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is now wondering what the topic was supposed to be 🙂
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: WHAT HAPPENS AFTER WE MASTER THE GENETIC CODE?
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Astrid, Koontz had a story about that. When an aI formed, he was motivated by beauty, wanting to help his “people” and self-preservation. Made a lot of sense. What else is there?
[2013/11/05 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “working for no pay” is impossible for humans (need food) and robots, too (need maintenance, energy)
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, thanks, Extie 🙂
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, but there is psychic income. You could love what you’re doing
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): The topic is what will happen if we MASTER the genetic code?
[2013/11/05 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: no, not if, AFTER
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, Extie, are you saying that maybe we’re slightly off topic talking about high technology? ::dimples::
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): aha
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, and I’m assuming that ‘mastering’ means being able to programme it as we do with software.
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Assuming we could create (or maybe even become) any plausible lifeform…. What would you want? Surely we must have some kind of imaginative visions in this group?
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: My topic assumes there is no IF about it.
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I get it
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And with a true economy of abundance, food, shelter, etc, are no longer either commodities or means of control. With machine resource gathering, such human NEEDS become trivial to grant.
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: A talking dog.
[2013/11/05 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, one thing is that we will all be like our avatars. No flaws whatsoever
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’ve worked with a few talking dogs. Female talking dogs
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Have you looked around at many avs, Rhi? 😀
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Stranger Nightfire: we need to word the motives we give computers very carfully, don’t forget the Forbin Project
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say that the first application will be medical, and expensive; the second will be cosmetics, and cheap.
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Dogs are great, and a talking one like Dug the Dog out of Up, would be even better. ‘Hey, let’s go and play catch the ball! Come on!!’.
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, I thought you might say that as soon as the words came out of my finger
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): What type of system would distribute the cost free necessities of life and what would be their motivation to do so?
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *fingers
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): You want imaginitive?
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: There are many things we can’t do with avs in SL, too…
[2013/11/05 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Astrid, why it has to be communist. We would work as a community or nothing would get done
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: like what, Zo?
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Have three legs!
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And the motivation would be that we wouldn’t want to be glared at.
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve never seen a good chakat in SL.
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://www.deviantart.com/art/The-First-Chakat-185909507
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: we cannot have three legs?
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Why not go centaur
[2013/11/05 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Chakats are centauroidal!
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): The first human modifications would be for breasts and penises, right?
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): haha
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: What, together?
[2013/11/05 16:19]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): sadly, it would be, yes
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Astrid, oh, god
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And Rhi, who would glare? Look at SL, No-one is really remarkable unless someone is being a problem.
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me imagines mile long penises in RL
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, I’d say the second. The first will be medical, because that’s where most researchfunding goes into.
[2013/11/05 16:19]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I spend 3/4ths of my time as a furry.
[2013/11/05 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Mile long would not work. At least not if you still use blood to make it erect.
[2013/11/05 16:20]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): And those modifications are already done.
[2013/11/05 16:20]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I think medical would come second because young people think they are already immortal, but they would love to be more sexual….
[2013/11/05 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Furry is cool. Furries should be achievable. How would our society respond to that? How would they be treated, I wonder?
[2013/11/05 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Valkyrie, fair enough. Marx assumed that natural goodness would prevail, there being no class conflict to make people hate each other. Maybe slightly optimistic. We won’t know until the technology forces us to know
[2013/11/05 16:20]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): and 1/4ths as a human with a vacuum cleaner, collecting in shred fur in your home sim?
[2013/11/05 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, Astrid, but you need to have the money to research first 😉
[2013/11/05 16:20]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *giggle* You REALLY need to read my articles Rhi
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Yes, true Gwyn. You win! haha
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: only ‘slightly’? 🙂
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, well SL may be a good proving ground for that. There would be a lot of prejudice, and they’d all end up in a region like Eternal Desires
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Furry in RL sounds a bit too Island Of Dr Morue to me (I probably mispronounced that)
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Furries do tend to get dumped on a lot, on teh interwebs.
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, yeah, slightly. I mean most nasty characteristics come as responses to scarcity and conflict.
[2013/11/05 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Once we eliminate that, why not be nice?
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): BTW for those who don’t know, I’m one of Exties fellow writers on Transhumanism
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: /me is not familiar with Eternal Desires…
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, *that* explains the horns
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Val is better than me. Gets published where I do not:)
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, that’s my home sim. It has three features–the Club, my discussions, and a furry farm
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re assuming that ‘being nice’ comes mostly from influences from the exterior, Rhi 🙂 I’d disagree; these are just conditions
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Interesting. Seriously would RL furry roleplayers want to take on real animal characteristics and if so, would it lead to separate species of humans?
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Most “evil” originates out of NEED. eliminate the NEED by providing for it, and most causes of human conflict vanish.
[2013/11/05 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Eveyone gets along.
[2013/11/05 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Rhi, part of Pinker’s explanation for why we are growing more peaceful is that we are slowly eliminating scarcity.
[2013/11/05 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Val, but the problem is erradicating the need in people’s minds 😉
[2013/11/05 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Astrid, the changes would be smaller because of the changing speed beeing slower. Inside SL, you can swap for a wet nose like as for dry socks. in seconds
[2013/11/05 16:23]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I think the same mindset that makes you have six inch diameter earlobe holes would lead to adding animal modifications for the body.
[2013/11/05 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, so you subscribe to something like original sin? Well, then, in addition to replicators, robots, we’d need *genetic engineering* Thank you! I”ve tied the deviant topic into Extie’s.
[2013/11/05 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve no doubt some would….
[2013/11/05 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pinker’s an optimist. Has he considered that there has been a subtle switch of where we put our ‘aggresivity’?
[2013/11/05 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: definitely not.
[2013/11/05 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Probably the extreme fringe at first, though. :/
[2013/11/05 16:24]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Exactly. NEED is manipulated by the powerful to make others serve their desires. Eliminate the ability to manipluate need, and you remove the majority of the “Power” used by the “Powerful”
[2013/11/05 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, not familar with Pinker, but he got the idea from Marx
[2013/11/05 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe Gwyn. It was a very big book.
[2013/11/05 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Valkyrie, exactly, the power structure collapses
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Stranger Nightfire: I am afraid that with climate change we will soon be entering a very violent period
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Statistically, Fewer people have died this century in war than in the then last 20 years of the last.
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Val: and how do you propose to eliminate the ability to manipulate need, since that’s part of everybody’s minds? I get it: re-engineer the brain after mastering the genetic code (there! back into topic again!)
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: In a nutshell, Pinker proves it is an historical fact that we are now at the most peaceful period of humanity’s existence. As to whether the trend progresses to total peace and harmony well…that remains to be seen:)
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): I think you are very correct Stranger
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: War has become very costly.
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, that reminds me of Freud’s response to Marx. He thought that once we eliminate marriage and private property, we would not get rid of lust and violence–it would take other forms
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): *sigh* don’t get me started on that. You would not like what I have to say.
[2013/11/05 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s all economics, basically.
[2013/11/05 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes, if by ‘peaceful’ it’s meant ‘less wars’ and ‘less violence on the streets’. That’s certainluy true.
[2013/11/05 16:26]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): *sigh* I know I wouldn’t
[2013/11/05 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yes, and economics is based on scarcity. Once you eliminate that, it’s like a sociological ‘black hole.’
[2013/11/05 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: 5 minutes left people, go wild with your speculations for genetic engineering from now until the end!
[2013/11/05 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I subscribe to Freud on that regard.
[2013/11/05 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: If molecular factories make it possible to produce war materials cheaply, then it might all to Hell.
[2013/11/05 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you know, Extie, I’m a capitalist at heart, so genetic engineering will follow the money. First, medical science; then, cosmetics….
[2013/11/05 16:27]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Basically these is no need to engineer need out of the human. we only need to provide for thweir needs to eliminate them as a means of control.
[2013/11/05 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Would designed life ultimately push out everything completely natural?
[2013/11/05 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: You can’t make economics go away, Rhi. Not as long as resources are limited, which they always will be.
[2013/11/05 16:27]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I would dispute that Zo.
[2013/11/05 16:27]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): 1) People would alter themselves for fashion in the short run 2) the basis of the economy would have to change 3) All diseases would be a thing of the past and extreme longevity would be the goal.
[2013/11/05 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s simple mathematics.
[2013/11/05 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Imagine if aliens land here hundreds of years in the future and the DNA they obtain as samples has a common ancestor traced back to Craig Ventor’s first fully artificial lifeform:)
[2013/11/05 16:28]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): It depends greatly on your basic Assumptions
[2013/11/05 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Val: perhaps I was not clear enough. ‘Need’ is just an abstract concept inside our minds. At present, we feel the ‘need’ for a lot of useless trash. You can give that useless trash away for free, and thus people won’t ‘need’ it, but they will transfer their ‘need’ to something else. So you’d just be postponing the problem. The true problem is erradicating need in the *mind* — creating a state of permanent contentness — and perhaps genetic engineering of the brain might do that one day.
[2013/11/05 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, I assume there’s no FTL travel.
[2013/11/05 16:29]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): genetic engineering will always be limited by amount of biology mass existing, so I doubt impacts on a magnitude of scale compared to lets say terraforming
[2013/11/05 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Astrid: good points indeed.
[2013/11/05 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: ..cuz all life on earth by then is related to that, not the grand ancestor of life on earth from circa 4 billion BC
[2013/11/05 16:29]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): No Gwyn, There is NEED, and there is DESIRE. NEED is what we actually will die without. everything else is desire.
[2013/11/05 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I think that I do too, but Marx had a point–you eliminate scarcity, then capitalism collapses, it’s fucntion being to, well, eliminate scarcity. What is left over are the cooperative systesms (corporations) and no hierachy. so we then cooperate, as we live in plenty. But he’s wrong in thinking all conflict would go.
[2013/11/05 16:29]  Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2013/11/05 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, ok, I get it; like air and water, Val. Ok, point taken.
[2013/11/05 16:30]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): NEED can be met. Desire is infinite
[2013/11/05 16:30]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): There is need it or die need, and there is need to have a good life need, and there is I ‘think I need this’ false need. All three are different.
[2013/11/05 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Last question: In the future we are imagining, are things better or worse, on balance?
[2013/11/05 16:30]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I’m a demoness. I know all about desire *giggle*
[2013/11/05 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Val: aye, I can agree with that distinction. And yes, Rhi, I think that he’s wrong on that point as well.
[2013/11/05 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t seem capitalism collapsing, but I might see it morphing into something we’d hardly recognize.
[2013/11/05 16:30]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): Hopefully things are better because of longer life and freedom from disease alone.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, that idea of eliminating need by genetically altering the brain scares me. Yes, meet our successor, the zombie people
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Again, depends. One mans Evil is another mans Good.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: past trends aren’t a guarantee of future predictions, but, if we continue to plod along this route, things will be better, even if everybody says otherwise 🙂
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): I do not think we will change human nature.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Astrid Elin Exonarson (artcrash.exonar): It’s not Good vs Evil, that is a religious concept, it is Good vs Bad, which are value judgements.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Human nature IS to change:)
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): But we will learn to channel it positively.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: To be or not to be… That is the question. I’m optimistic on the whole, but I do think we face Lots Of Chaos.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think we could, with genetic engineering, but I like human nature just the way it is
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Val: I don’t think we can change that, either 🙂 At least not against people’s wills.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Much upheaval coming.
[2013/11/05 16:31]  Valkyrie (valkyrie.mcgill): Even good and bad are relative.
[2013/11/05 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well, my time is up!
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