Thinkers september 24 2013: ART AND MORALITY

Zobeid Zuma at Thinkers

Zobeid Zuma at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2013/09/24 15:31]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): I wish it wasn’t so outspoken
[2013/09/24 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2013/09/24 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Can a film or book be a great work of art AND morally bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Most of the newer ones don’t do that, they only notify the wearer.
[2013/09/24 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d like a movie that’s good and morally bankrupt, most seem to be bad and morally bankrupt these days
[2013/09/24 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I started to complile a list of “immoral” books and authors as soon as I saw the topic, Extie. Balsac, Arthur Miller, Ayn Rand, Boudelaire, Rebalais, Marquis de Sade, and anything that depicts woman dominated by men if you believe Dworkin
[2013/09/24 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So I think the answer is yes
[2013/09/24 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Morally bankrupt is hard to pin down. However… Being morally bankrupt might *be* a valid artistic point, especially if it was the response to a preponderance of morally upright/uptight works.
[2013/09/24 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Selene!
[2013/09/24 15:32]  Selene Ambrose: Hola
[2013/09/24 15:32]  tauneutrino: ayn rand.. I think not
[2013/09/24 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: not art or not morally bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: or both?
[2013/09/24 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think she’s a great artist, and if we get into *that,* well, then we will soon find that we have no basis at all for a discussion
[2013/09/24 15:33]  Kelian Chayoo: why not just call it amoral
[2013/09/24 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zola is another
[2013/09/24 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The list goes on and on, pick your own.
[2013/09/24 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Sort of like deconstruction… My favorite western is “The Outlaw Josey Wales”. But it basically was a reaction against all the sappy, sanitized, implausibly clean-and-pure westerns before. Josey Wales as the anti-Lone Ranger.
[2013/09/24 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): All the ones I mention went against the morality of their time and were declared both great works of art and immoral
[2013/09/24 15:34]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): The world is full of colorful characters
[2013/09/24 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, or the Spagetti Westerns
[2013/09/24 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: If there was a beautifully acted, photographed and edited propaganda piece promoting Nazism would its subject matter detract from the artistry of the film?
[2013/09/24 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: does it have to be actual “art”, or novel in case of books?
[2013/09/24 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: No
[2013/09/24 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, Josey Wales was an Eastwood flick, so it grew out of the spaghetti westerns he’d starred in. But it was more sophisticated than them.
[2013/09/24 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, there was. “Triumph of the Will,” still held up as a masterful work of art and propaganda
[2013/09/24 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: ‘Who Owns The Future’ is, apparently, a good book, I found it rather disturbing and the morality in it presented doubtful, to say the least
[2013/09/24 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: But is it wrong to hold it up in such a way? Can we really divorce an immoral message from an artwork?
[2013/09/24 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And here’s a nice wench to throw into the works–what if you had a forgery that was perfect–wouldn’t it still be a work of art even though immoral?
[2013/09/24 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: And Eastwood’s later flicks such as Unforgiven went to even greater extremes to try and demystify the Old West, for those who still hadn’t got the message.
[2013/09/24 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: But it is not the art which is immoral in that case, merely its means of production.
[2013/09/24 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The reason why the question arises, Extie, is that when a work of art is declared immoral, there is usually dissent about the morality involved.
[2013/09/24 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: why is that?
[2013/09/24 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Picasso was inconsistent with both Nazi and Soviet aesthetics
[2013/09/24 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “As the classical age of Greece was epitomized by the Parthonen, the degenerate present is epitomized by a cubist monstrosity” Adolf Hitler
[2013/09/24 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok. What can we learn from that quote?
[2013/09/24 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh dear did everyone crash?
[2013/09/24 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That to delcare a work of art immoral usually presupposes a political perspective, for one thing. That’s one thing I learned from it
[2013/09/24 15:39]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/09/24 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, extie, they’re just overwhelmed by the complexity and profundity of your topic, so they are speechless
[2013/09/24 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Another film example… Compare “Knights of the Round Table” (1953) with Monty Python and the Holy Grail. 😀
[2013/09/24 15:39]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2013/09/24 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m sure one could argue that Monty Python and the Holy Grail is morally bankrupt! It’s also a masterpiece.
[2013/09/24 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: That implies that it is impossible for any art to be intrinsically immoral, or moral. So art is Amoral?
[2013/09/24 15:40]  Vorren Voltaire: its a tricky topic. what is considered moral/amoral…heck, what is considered “great art”?
[2013/09/24 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that doesn’t follow. It might be putting for a message that not only do people disagree with but is profoundly offensive at a visceral level. Obscenity, for example
[2013/09/24 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Vorren, yeah, but that’s why I made my list–almost everyone would consider one of the people on it to be great, and they were all accused of immorality
[2013/09/24 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not know about that. There is not universal agreement concerning what is obscene.
[2013/09/24 15:41]  Pip Torok: no and io there should never be
[2013/09/24 15:42]  Pip Torok: imo
[2013/09/24 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: Why is Holy Grail morally bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Great art gets a reaction. Attacking all that is good and beloved is one way to get a reaction. :/
[2013/09/24 15:42]  Pip Torok: is it?
[2013/09/24 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, the reaction might be in the form of inciting riots…
[2013/09/24 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: “The Rite of Spring” reputedly did that when it was first performed, by the way!
[2013/09/24 15:43]  Vorren Voltaire: agree with Zobeid. Morality or immorality is just part of the artist’s tools to get that reaction.
[2013/09/24 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Kubrik’s film Clockwork Orange encouraged some copycat violence. Does that detract from the artistry of the film itself or is it separate from the violence it caused?
[2013/09/24 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, as did “The Last Temptation of Christ.” Or for that matter, the Beatles–whose albums were taken out of stores forceably and smashed, esp. after John Lennon said “We’re more popular than Jesus.”
[2013/09/24 15:44]  Second Life: luisa (luisa.bourgoin) is online.
[2013/09/24 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Rock & Roll is jungle music…”
[2013/09/24 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: And don’t forget “Innocence of Muslims”.
[2013/09/24 15:45]  Pip Torok: in that particular instance imo ppl were afraid JL was right
[2013/09/24 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Gwyn!
[2013/09/24 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: he obviously was not. How many followers does Christianity have versus the beatles?
[2013/09/24 15:45]  Pip Torok: hi Gwyn .. long time!!
[2013/09/24 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me tiptoes in
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Pip, yes. But they also did it to other rock n roll albums in the ’50’s
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwyn!
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwynie! You should come in loudly with fanfare, befitting your status in the Thinker community!
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Vorren Voltaire: would propaganda be considered art, or is there a distinction?
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi all 🙂 And hi indeed, Pip!!
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: So Gwyn…
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Topic..
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Can a film or book be a great work of art AND morally bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2013/09/24 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha I used to have a ‘fanfarre’ attachment, but it was too loud….
[2013/09/24 15:47]  Pip Torok: then to me it sounds like a hearts n minds conflict … the new versus the orthodox
[2013/09/24 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: Why do we even discuss art? I thought the subject were /good/ books and movies?
[2013/09/24 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha! I don’t understand *anything* about art!
[2013/09/24 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Vorren, well, that partly depends on whether you think all art is propaganda–which Hitler & Stalin did
[2013/09/24 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: “It’s a penis nailed to a cross, it’s deep!”
[2013/09/24 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Pip, I agree
[2013/09/24 15:48]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is offline.
[2013/09/24 15:48]  Pip Torok: do you have feelings about “Art” in the abstract or in certain wks of art, gwyn?
[2013/09/24 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Luisa!
[2013/09/24 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): greetings!
[2013/09/24 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: So Ivy…do you think a film can be good and also morally bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: damn… I’m googling and googling but I can’t find the *very* *famous* thing that I’m looking for.
[2013/09/24 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Luisa!
[2013/09/24 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Because I don’t know the right question to ask.
[2013/09/24 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Pip, to be honest, I can barely distinguish “art” from “kitsch” or “handicrafts”….
[2013/09/24 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What is it, Zo?
[2013/09/24 15:49]  Selene Ambrose: What does morally bankrupt mean?
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Selne, oh, you would bring that up. lol
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: That major major anti-semitic screed. The infamous one.
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: It’s hard for me to recall an example, but I think so, Extie.
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Vorren Voltaire: I have never seen morally bankrupt crochet
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Means it is nasty and offensive.
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I like Pip’s idea that to declare something ‘morally backrupt’ is really to fight against orthodoxy from a new perspective
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Not the one Hitler did, the older one. :/
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Selene Ambrose: It is the point of the meeting, but we need to know the meaning of that to go on.
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Right, Selene, how dare you bring up morality in a discussion about morality.
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😀
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. You dropped the “art” word from the presentation of the topic, Extie….
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Pip Torok: if ppl in power wish to reduce art to an instrument of persuasion then it cd be argues that it is “morally bankrupt” but i wd say simply that it wasnt art …
[2013/09/24 15:50]  Pip Torok: .. or no longer art …
[2013/09/24 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because that’s a different issue, “good” vs. “art”.
[2013/09/24 15:51]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a bancrypty on regards of morality, besides beeing all crafty made … there is a distinctive genre where soldiers fight a war against aliens. That is something … I would call it crossing the borders onto War Propaganda
[2013/09/24 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess Grand Theft Auto is an example. The technical skill and polish of the game is undeniable but does its questionable morality detract from all that or not?
[2013/09/24 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that’s actually a good point, Selene, we should clear that first!
[2013/09/24 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, good example, Extie
[2013/09/24 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Does nobody know what I’m talking about? All you philosophy types, even?
[2013/09/24 15:52]  Vorren Voltaire: in the case of GTA the immorality of it enhances the experience, IMO
[2013/09/24 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean GTAV…the original GTA is not all that.
[2013/09/24 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: maybe if a hard cover book has a gps location device that sends data to NSA, then it’s morally bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Not sure, Zo, what are you talking about?
[2013/09/24 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: That infamous piece of anti-semitic propaganda. The one that purports to be the secret plans of the Jews to take over the world, or somesuch. :/
[2013/09/24 15:53]  Kelian Chayoo: (tht green chair hates me)
[2013/09/24 15:53]  Pip Torok: Ivy .. then its an instrument of detection cunningly disguised as a book …
[2013/09/24 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh! The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”
[2013/09/24 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: And GTA is probably an example of what I was talking about earlier, where moral bankruptcy (or the appearance of it) is the artistic point.
[2013/09/24 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Really GTA’s charm is in presenting a fantasy world where actions which would have dire consequences in real life are effectively harmless.
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes! Elders of Zion!
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what you mean, Extie, is to ask if a good film can be offensive. I’d say, *any* film is offensive to at least *one* person: it’s impossible to make sure that a film is not offensive to *anyone*
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Kelian, I’ve had chairs like that; makes it look like it is eating me
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Kelian Chayoo: That one kicked me of sl 3 times
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: If anything was morally bankrupt, the Protocols are. But they weren’t presented as art, they were presented as a fraud, a hoax.
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, the hard case thought would be a universally offensive book that was still a brilliant piece of art
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry about the incredible lag in yping, I think I’ll switch viewers…)
[2013/09/24 15:54]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): The movie Dogma
[2013/09/24 15:54]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Zob, that titel is especially bad because it is not only targetting a fictional group of people, it really miscredits a whole countrys population
[2013/09/24 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: /me also kicks Google for never finding that for her.
[2013/09/24 15:55]  Pip Torok: the very word “bankrupt” confuses me btw ….
[2013/09/24 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: But some films…that one somebody mentioned about Muslims for example, are intentionally made to be offensive.
[2013/09/24 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Like…um…Freddy Got fingered.
[2013/09/24 15:56]  Kelian Chayoo: or human centipede?
[2013/09/24 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah. Well…more so Human Centipede 2.
[2013/09/24 15:56]  Vorren Voltaire: is that really art, though?
[2013/09/24 15:56]  Pip Torok: ive always wondered whether Rushdie wrote “Satanic Letters” merely to provoke or was there some other point…
[2013/09/24 15:56]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): Define art
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Human Centipede is not violent and not gory but it sets up a premise which is profoundly disturbing.
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is offline.
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): I believe if it provoke a emotuonal response. It can be consider art
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Selene Ambrose: whispers: We could refrain from just throwing titles about, since not everyone will have seen it. I would be more curious about the meaning of the topic. Morally bankrupt. What is that? How do you see it? Does everyone recognize it? Is it universally accepted?
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Pip Torok: I’d say something that hangs more attractively than the concrete wall it covers
[2013/09/24 15:57]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the bigger the audience, the lesser offensive, as a rule by thumb. Worldwide distributed media has by definition beeing acceptable by world wide standards and ethics
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: The sequel is violent and gory with the same sick premise.
[2013/09/24 15:57]  Kelian Chayoo: I’ve just read the reviews, I’m not sure I want to see such a movie because things can’t be “unseen”
[2013/09/24 15:58]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the satanic letters probably have never been meant to become worldwide distributed
[2013/09/24 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: of what? Human centipede?
[2013/09/24 15:58]  Kelian Chayoo: yes
[2013/09/24 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Selene, you’re right of course, but if we had titles that people at least have heard of–like The Flowers of Evil (Balzac)–we have a place to start. Of course, I am assuming an inductive approach.
[2013/09/24 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Well you do not SEE anything.
[2013/09/24 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me has never heard of it
[2013/09/24 15:58]  Selene Ambrose: Me too, never.
[2013/09/24 15:58]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): another example … drawings in a newspaper depicting the prophet. big times trouble publishing that inside a muslim country. sad when it reaches there none the less
[2013/09/24 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: It is a movie about a mad doctor who creates a simease triplet by surgically attaching people’s mouths to other people’s anuses.
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, I’ve heard of that. Isn’t that called centipede, or Congress, or something?
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me was referring to The Flowers of Evil
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: It does not exactly show all the implications of this, not explicitely, at any rate.
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Pip Torok: /me is sorry for the 3rd one in line ….
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): How the movie Valentine’s Day? That is worst movies ever
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sure that movie will never become mainstream, Extie…. 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Second Life: Steampunkables (joey.aboma) is online.
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is offline.
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s a famous collection of poems by Balzac, thought to be immoral when published; some libraries wouldn’t have it on their shelves until a couple of decades ago
[2013/09/24 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: I did hear about human centipede, it seemed to be a very dull concept to make a movie of
[2013/09/24 16:00]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): exactly! mainstream requires wide consent
[2013/09/24 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally I think it works very well. It is body horror and the whole point of that genre is to feel disgust while you watch it. Body horror that does not come across as vile is like a comedy that is not funny.
[2013/09/24 16:01]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/09/24 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: /me prefered Boxing Helena. :/
[2013/09/24 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Gwyn
[2013/09/24 16:01]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): WB
[2013/09/24 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: wb!
[2013/09/24 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I never saw that, Zo; the premise sounded horrible to me.
[2013/09/24 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Boxing Helena, I heard of that.
[2013/09/24 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, if she had somehow gotten hold of an assault rifle, that would be different
[2013/09/24 16:02]  Pip Torok: dont forget that at one time it wd have been polite to _simulate_ shock at balzac’s poems
[2013/09/24 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks, trying to use Firestorm to get rid of chat lag)
[2013/09/24 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, keep on using it, it’s kind of nice wondering if this time, you will return, and for how long
[2013/09/24 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: Well, I don’t like horrors in general. I don’t really know why someone would like to see something that makes them feel a negative emotion (and then probably the same people would scorn me for having anal sex, which is fun!)
[2013/09/24 16:02]  Second Life: Corin Exin (corin.clary) is offline.
[2013/09/24 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My problem with the topic is that I’m really not a “movie fan” hehe
[2013/09/24 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Gwyn, Extie did say movies or books
[2013/09/24 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: HUman centipede is like texas Chainsaw Massacre in a way, since both movies have a reputation as being far worse than they actually are.
[2013/09/24 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I took the general point to be can a work of art be immoral?
[2013/09/24 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: right, Rhi.
[2013/09/24 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: How about “Falling Down”. Anybody see that?
[2013/09/24 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Me!
[2013/09/24 16:04]  Pip Torok: Ive .. imo it comes down to the agreement of 2 ppl the other side of a bedroom door, and so no business of those on the outside …
[2013/09/24 16:04]  Pip Torok: Ivy
[2013/09/24 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: why two? 😀
[2013/09/24 16:04]  Kelian Chayoo: I saw falling down. But I would say that it had morallity
[2013/09/24 16:04]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): I understand why you dislike Horror, Ivy. I enjoy Horror Genre because it s a roller coaster ride,Its very hard to find a well made horror movie.
[2013/09/24 16:05]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): this is derailing now 😀
[2013/09/24 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘See this is what I am talking about. THAT burger is big and juicy…now look at THIS miserable, squashed thing…’
[2013/09/24 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me likes horror, but not gore
[2013/09/24 16:05]  Pip Torok: well its usually two in a bed … but youre right .. not necessarily so
[2013/09/24 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And I think those are two separate criteria, actually. Approaching it from a deductive point of view (to hell with examples, in other words) we have moraliy reflecting a universal absolute as legislated by a lawmaker in a kingdom of ends, and we have, in the case of a work of art, a “subjective universality”–a community of those who share our tastes. So it is logically possible, at least on deontological grounds, to distinguish the two criteria and thus it is at least logically possible for a work of art to be great and immoral
[2013/09/24 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: The best horror films have 15 certificate, cuz 18 means they have gone for sex and gore rather than psychological mindtricks.
[2013/09/24 16:05]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): I agree with Gwyneth on no gore horror movies
[2013/09/24 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’d say if we had universal ethics, then no movie that offended at least ONE person would be run on the commercial circuit 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Sinister. Now that is a good horror film:)
[2013/09/24 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But since we don’t….
[2013/09/24 16:06]  Vorren Voltaire: can’t think of a movie like that. every film has something to be offended about.
[2013/09/24 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also hmm
[2013/09/24 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, that’s my point though–ethics implies a universalizability; art, which is either beautiful or sublime, only implies a community of shared tastes
[2013/09/24 16:07]  Selene Ambrose: Is immoral the same as morally bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 16:07]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): The Conjuring was a good example a good horror. No one died in the whole film
[2013/09/24 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So although there could be an overlap, there could be artworks which are immoral
[2013/09/24 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I think so, Selene.
[2013/09/24 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me of the editing spree of old classics, where cigarette smoke has been deleted out of the images, because it is ‘morally offensive’ for this age — but commonplace in the era that the classic movie was produced.
[2013/09/24 16:07]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Selene, there are differences. If bankrypty is involved, it was not claiming to be lacking any morals, at least in the beginning
[2013/09/24 16:07]  Pip Torok: but there are degrees of offence … from twinges of discomfort to fullblown horror
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip: exactly!
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: I wonder if they’ll put it back after vaping catches on? :/
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: If you personally found something to be profoundly immoral, would that detract from its artistry?
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: right! haha
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: To get somewhat on topic. I think there are two categories of books and movies: those that try to preach morality and those that don’t. If they don’t, and the point of the book/movie is to just have some fun while contemplating the funny side of playing football with freshly cut off heads, then it can be a good movie/book. On the other side, if the sole point is preaching morality, and that book or movie turns out to be morally bankrupt, then it is not a good movie/book since it doesn’t deliver it’s premise.
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): I have a question. What is exactly Mortally Bankrupt?
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wonders what they will substitute for guns if gun control catches on. Esp as it can’t be toy guns, paper cut out that looks like guns, or bubble guns
[2013/09/24 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that is a good question! I’d say “yes”, because to be able to overcome one’s prejudice is really hard!
[2013/09/24 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: /me thinks it would be weird to edit cigs out of old movies after everybody is puffing on e-joints. 😀
[2013/09/24 16:09]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): censoring cigarettes feels so … so soviet times!
[2013/09/24 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Something is morally bankrupt when its carries a message which would be upsetting according to the moral norms of that society, I guess.
[2013/09/24 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For instance, Mel Gibson’s religious movie about the life of Jesus of Nazareth was so gory that one lost the details of the overall production — the mind would only capture the suffering, the gore, and forget about the rest of the movie.
[2013/09/24 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, censoring *anything* seems Soviet Times. We nevr smoked cigarettes, we have always been tobacco free…
[2013/09/24 16:10]  Kelian Chayoo: morally bankrupt would seem to be something that tries too but does not have morality, as opposed to immorality, and then there is a third catagory:amorality. a lack of morality
[2013/09/24 16:10]  Sally Addams (wrenlongleaf): Actually majority of crimes are commited with Knives,and blunt weapons. Rhi… That is why Gun control is so laughable,
[2013/09/24 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: it has spilled over from the USSR to Hollywood 🙂 “Political correctness” is still viewed as something very “leftie” after all…
[2013/09/24 16:10]  Pip Torok: “preach morality” can mean 2 distict things : 1 … argue that the concept “morality” is a good thing and (2) argue that a particular action or state of affairs was good or bad…
[2013/09/24 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I argue you do not know what it means to undergo what Jesus went through unless you have seen that film.
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I argue that Mel Gibson didn’t know it either 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sally, I’m opposed to gun control, but 60% of weapons-related crimes are done with guns. The CDC said so and I believe them. (lol)
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Pip: I meant the latter
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Pip Torok: ah .. thank you Ivy
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Selene Ambrose: isn’t immoral still a portion of morality and morally bankrupt means an absence of morality? I think only nature can be morally bankrupt, and anything created by humans, especially as communication will involve morality. Morally bankrupt human creations would be something like a pry bar, just an instrument of utilty.
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: though “argue that the concept ‘morality’ is a good thing” is a fallacy of stolen concept
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you argue that something is a good thing, you are making a moral argument
[2013/09/24 16:11]  Kelian Chayoo: and then there is a greta quote that I forgey who it’s attributed too. Ethics are behaviors one imposes on ones self, Morals are behaviors one imposes on others.
[2013/09/24 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: point well made 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Interesting Gwyn. Like Spielberg who claimed Schindler’s List failed to capture the horror of the holocaust, something nobody would ever succeed in doing.
[2013/09/24 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Ivy had a good point–if the point of the movie or book is moralistic, then if it is immoral, that would be a point against it
[2013/09/24 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes, something like that. We just get a “cleaned up” version
[2013/09/24 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: But what if it is trying to be immoral and succeeds?
[2013/09/24 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the horror catching pictures have to be historical, not fictious
[2013/09/24 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me looks at Ivy with her use of the fallacy of the stolen concept. Someone aside from her has actually read Ayn Rand
[2013/09/24 16:13]  Pip Torok: Extropia .. my son wd have argued the complete opposite … his head knew the history before seeing the film .. after the film his heart knew it too
[2013/09/24 16:13]  Selene Ambrose: Geology is morally bankrupt.
[2013/09/24 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: but then we could also argue that morality changes with culture, age, country, and so forth, so a movie that was immoral in the 1950s would be fine today, and vice-versa — or a porn movie would be immoral anywhere in the Middle East 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Human centipede again. Is it a good movie BECAUSE it sets out to disgust and achieves its aim?
[2013/09/24 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: more people here read Rand
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: hands up who read Ayn Rand.
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: *raises hand*
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, no, it depends on the usage of good. For me to argue that chocolate ice cream is a good thing is to not say I think chocolate ice cream is moral
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me raises
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me puts her hand up as well
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Kelian Chayoo: I’d rather read watch tower
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *raises hand*
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Selene Ambrose: nope, not read.
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: I think the context was clear in that particular case
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Pip Torok: ive never read her … anyone know a good introduction to her thought?
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wikipedia 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I’m notjoking 🙂 )=
[2013/09/24 16:15]  Pip Torok: tgks !! of course!!!
[2013/09/24 16:15]  Vorren Voltaire: dang rl. gtg.
[2013/09/24 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, Wikipedia is biased, but, alas, isn’t everything? 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See you, Vorren 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well I would argue that such a view is internally inconsitent–as moral judgments are, by nature, universalistic. But even so, we can see that there is a difference between the kingdom (or community) of ends, in morality and the community of like tastes, in aesthetics
[2013/09/24 16:15]  Selene Ambrose: the ocean isn’t biased.
[2013/09/24 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I like your former question. If a movie wants to depict something morally offensive, and achieves that aim, is it a good movie? 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually have no idea, lol
[2013/09/24 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Good introduction to Rand would be: metaphysics= Objective Reality; Epistemology= Reason; Ethics=Self interest and Politics= Capitalism.
[2013/09/24 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: I suggest morality based on pie rather than ice cream. (Unless it’s pie served with ice cream!) –>
[2013/09/24 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Pip, a good introduction to Ayn Rand? Well, I would read We the Living first. It was taken by an admirer to a Russian Literature scholar who didn’t know the author, and he thought it was on a par with the great Soviet dissenters.
[2013/09/24 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rand in nine words 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: That was how Ayn Rand herself summed up her philosophy:)
[2013/09/24 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*
[2013/09/24 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: while standing on one foot, I might add.
[2013/09/24 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really?
[2013/09/24 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, she actually almost did that herself. Let’s ee if I remember. :Metaphysics: reality exists; Epistemology: reason; Ethics: Egoism Politics: Capitalism Aesthetics: romanticism
[2013/09/24 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On heels? 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah. She was asked to sum up her philosophy while standing on one foot, and she did.
[2013/09/24 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I was close.
[2013/09/24 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha ok, I had no idea
[2013/09/24 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: As to whether she had high heels or not, I have no idea.
[2013/09/24 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2013/09/24 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Capitalism the Unknown Ideal and The Romantic Manifesto would also help, Pip Or you might just read Den Uyl and Rasmussen’s collection of scholarly essays on her
[2013/09/24 16:19]  Kelian Chayoo: New age Aristaucracy
[2013/09/24 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s second hand, but gives you a really good idea of her philosophy
[2013/09/24 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So much so that both her followers and critics hate it
[2013/09/24 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But for the wrong reasons, imho 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: we all done with the topic?
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, just off on a tangent, Extie
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw no. I’m actually interested in seeing the reply to your last question, Extie
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: You can talk about Rand if you would rather:)
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a point well made. If a movie wants to depict something awful, and succeeds, is it a good movie or not?
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: I forget what it was now:)
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, that.
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: I think so. But you may not want to watch it!
[2013/09/24 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In this sense, the point would be: “a good movie is a movie that achieves what it has set as a goal”
[2013/09/24 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or something like that.
[2013/09/24 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not being precise; just throwing a working definition of what a good movie is (or, rather, one possible definition of “good movie”)
[2013/09/24 16:21]  Pip Torok: so “the green Mile” wd be a good movie if it simply made ppl think…..
[2013/09/24 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For example, yes, Pip
[2013/09/24 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: But I think it would require qualities we expect of any good film. If it is badly acted, poorly edited, etc etc it is not good saying ‘but it was disgusting like it promised, so that makes it all good’.
[2013/09/24 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, old SF classics would always have a message. If they actually managed to pass it along to the audience, they would have been good movies/books.
[2013/09/24 16:22]  Selene Ambrose: Bye all. Happy hour in RL. Thank you for the interesting discussion.
[2013/09/24 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: The message of SF classics is always ‘better dead than red!’.
[2013/09/24 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Selene
[2013/09/24 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Extie. Now you’re addressing another possible definition of a “good movie” — one related to technical prowess and aesthetics.
[2013/09/24 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: right.
[2013/09/24 16:23]  Pip Torok: for me thats like n old painting that once was good to see but now the faded colours have spoiled its intended effect
[2013/09/24 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: That was not always the message, Extie.
[2013/09/24 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, that depends. There was Forbidden Planet, The Day the Earth Stood Still. That may be the case with Commando Cody, fighting against the Moon men sabateurs…
[2013/09/24 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good analogy, Pip. So we might miss the whole point of a movie or book if it’s horribly executed.
[2013/09/24 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: In that respect Human Centipede is an average film. I deserves no awards for editing or acting or cinematography or anything like that.
[2013/09/24 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, mmh, this is back to the definition of what “art” is. .)
[2013/09/24 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I remember Commando Cody! That was great.
[2013/09/24 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: never heard of it.
[2013/09/24 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: It was an old old serial. I watched it at the Museum of Robots back in its heyday.
[2013/09/24 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think it was a serial, Extie; then a TV show; and some of the serials were stitched together to make movies. You can find some of them on MST:3000
[2013/09/24 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I know The Day The Earth Stood Still. They have a statue of Gort down at Extropia Core:)
[2013/09/24 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A friend of mine liked to tell me that art requires both technique, a canon, and uniqueness. I don’t remember if “message” was part of the requirements.
[2013/09/24 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: does anyone here think it is?
[2013/09/24 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The dictator of the Moon wants to conquer the Earth, but soften us up with sabatage first. Commando Cody, the owner of the only spaceship and a rocket pack, along with the LAPD fight heroically to stop the sabatoge
[2013/09/24 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, a badly executed movie might have a message, a goal, a point, but if it has no technique, poor editing, poor actiors etc. then it would still not be a “good movie” — under that definition, of course.
[2013/09/24 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: sounds like a Flash Gordon type to me.
[2013/09/24 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I think it was inspired by Flash Gordon.
[2013/09/24 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sounds like it, yes 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And Buck Rogers–they had rocket packs in Buck Rogers, I think
[2013/09/24 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: and Twiki!
[2013/09/24 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha!
[2013/09/24 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Even better was the one with Gene Autrey and his singing cowboys, who had a hidden city with atomic power and robots underneath their ranch. 😀
[2013/09/24 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: bidibidibidi..
[2013/09/24 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: That was actually quite well done.
[2013/09/24 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I think it might be fairer to say that a movie that got over its message but otherwise sucked was a movie good to the extent it got its message across, but bad as it otherwise sucked.
[2013/09/24 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing like Iron Sky — Nazis on the Moon 🙂
[2013/09/24 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: You lot have seen the weirdest films:)
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the keep coming on Netflix–I can’t help myself
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that’s why I’m not pushing the definition, as said, I know little about the philosophical background of what “art” is supposed to be.
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Makes my Maya Deren films seem quite mainstream:)
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Whatever doesn’t kill us makes us stranger.
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me passes Zo some absynth
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think you did a good job of making a counter-example just then, Gwyn
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: was that Wittgenstein?
[2013/09/24 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: ..No he was ‘that which we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence’.
[2013/09/24 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, the original quote was supposedly from Nietzche, and the one that Zo just made up is from, well, Zo
[2013/09/24 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Thanks Rhi!
[2013/09/24 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Wish my knowledge of philosophy was on a par with yours.
[2013/09/24 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Well..
[2013/09/24 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: My time is pretty much up!
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