THINKERS AUGUST 27 2013: RIGHT TO PRIVACY VERSUS RIGHT TO ROAM IN SL

 Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers..
[2013/08/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is….
[2013/08/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Mainland is littered with impassable barriers and security systems which eject you from the sim if you are not on the list. Are these measures welcome forms of privacy or a denial of one’s right to wander freely across SL?
[2013/08/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Denial! I crashed the helicopter I stole into one of those and lost it!!
[2013/08/27 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting balance. People want their privacy, but then that wrecks the whole purpose of continous connected sims.
[2013/08/27 15:32]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2013/08/27 15:32]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/08/27 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah that was a selling point of Sl, right? That you could walk across it without interruption?
[2013/08/27 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that there is a lot of bad information out there about how ‘dangerous’ being unprotected is. Much overstated.
[2013/08/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: heya Carolyn..
[2013/08/27 15:33]  Carolyn Criadic: hi
[2013/08/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: we only just started so grab a seat and join in.
[2013/08/27 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Welcome Carolyn
[2013/08/27 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: AO/ chair conflict
[2013/08/27 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: turn off AO
[2013/08/27 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: If you want privacy why not get yourself a skybox?
[2013/08/27 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember some years ago a subject just like this came up in England.
[2013/08/27 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh?
[2013/08/27 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: IRL, even!
[2013/08/27 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Some groups were demanding the right to walk/hike across the countryside wherever they wished, without regard for property lines.
[2013/08/27 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok..well is there less of a reason to want security around your property in SL compared to RL?
[2013/08/27 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Isn’t there a right to walk along establish pathways regardless of ownership in Great Britain?
[2013/08/27 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: (something that would be very unwise to try in Texas, by the way)
[2013/08/27 15:35]  Second Life: Lilly (taylor.schroeder) is online.
[2013/08/27 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: It can be hard to tell what is a right of way, though, Art..
[2013/08/27 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: The thing about RL, though, is that people wandering about your property can mess it up in various ways, intentionally or not.
[2013/08/27 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: That shouldn’t generally be true of SL.
[2013/08/27 15:37]  Carolyn Criadic: the thing about sl is that land costs are what generate most of the money for linden labs
[2013/08/27 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: We have property tax IRL too. 😛
[2013/08/27 15:37]  Carolyn Criadic: and that making land ownership attrative is what funds this whole thing
[2013/08/27 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: In sl having people on your property doesn’t really effect much. I leave full permission for everyone on this sim, and the only downside is occasional cleanup of stuff using the about land tool.
[2013/08/27 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Agreed Carolyn..
[2013/08/27 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: But let’s say a parcel in SL is like a web page. Most web pages aren’t private, because the whole purpose is to show something to the world.
[2013/08/27 15:38]  Second Life: Fiona Scorfield is offline.
[2013/08/27 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: But does putting up barriers preventing people from entering your property enhance or diminish SL, appeal?
[2013/08/27 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: It diminished the appeal I think.
[2013/08/27 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: dimishes
[2013/08/27 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/08/27 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: can’t type
[2013/08/27 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s definitely a big nuisance, Extie. AT least for those who wander about and explore. But who does that, really?
[2013/08/27 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is late as usual
[2013/08/27 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2013/08/27 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Even if you are the owner?
[2013/08/27 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I know the topic for today! heh
[2013/08/27 15:39]  Carolyn Criadic: the isdea in sl is that you can have pretend the mansions and castles of the rich and famous
[2013/08/27 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Do you benefit more from only allowing invited residents into your property?
[2013/08/27 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: The worst thing that can happen is to walk in on someone having sex, right? Is that that big of a deal in sl?
[2013/08/27 15:40]  Carolyn Criadic: yes
[2013/08/27 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a psychological thingy, it doesn’t mean it’s rational
[2013/08/27 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Believe me I can make a sky platform that no one can find, anywhere on the sim. It isn’t hard
[2013/08/27 15:40]  Carolyn Criadic: r be the female having sex and a bunch of men come in and ask if they can play too
[2013/08/27 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally, if there is somebody home I always knock and ask if I can come in. I do not just enter uninvited.
[2013/08/27 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think it’s *all* about tsex but also about the right to do things in your land and exclude others.
[2013/08/27 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: you know the topic Gwyn?
[2013/08/27 15:41]  Carolyn Criadic: not everyone is that nice
[2013/08/27 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, so what is the reasoning for those who don’ t do cybersex? Does it kill their experience to have someone wander by every once in a while?
[2013/08/27 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my country, this is called the “bouncer syndrome”: bouncers don’t own clubs, but, due to their job, they’re able to only let people in that they wish
[2013/08/27 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is, in a sense, a *legal* abuse of authority
[2013/08/27 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think sex is the reason for the barriers.
[2013/08/27 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And widespread, even way beyond clubs, of course
[2013/08/27 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whispers: So no, I don’t think that sex is the main reason either. The only reason is “Bcause I can”
[2013/08/27 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: People use skyboxes for that sort of thing, right?
[2013/08/27 15:43]  Carolyn Criadic: or because having barriers makes buying land and paying tiers more attractive
[2013/08/27 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is my opinion that putting up privacy barriers decreases your own user experience.
[2013/08/27 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: how?
[2013/08/27 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well for example I couldn’t host this very group.
[2013/08/27 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh..and I want to pick up on what Zo said….who wanders around SL, anyway?
[2013/08/27 15:44]  Awesome Thor: i doo
[2013/08/27 15:44]  Awesome Thor: do
[2013/08/27 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: me too.
[2013/08/27 15:44]  Awesome Thor: i hate hitting barriers with my sailboat
[2013/08/27 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are a certain percentage of wanderers, I had my extreme wanderer phase.
[2013/08/27 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm. I didn’t see Zo’s point. Did she say that the amount of people actually wandering around is small?
[2013/08/27 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: I imagine most people prefer to just TP to some place they plan to visit, as opposed to wandering aimlessly from sim to sim?
[2013/08/27 15:45]  Carolyn Criadic: sl is pretty empty over most of it
[2013/08/27 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d agree, Extie
[2013/08/27 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: That is true, Carolyn..
[2013/08/27 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: From my point of view, when you make something in SL. You are being somewhat of an artist. And you want someone to experience and like what you did, no?
[2013/08/27 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Most people treat SL like a 3D WWW. They search for where they want to go, or get a landmark from someone, and the TP there.
[2013/08/27 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: When I wander Sl I am lucky to see one person all day.
[2013/08/27 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: The geography is almost irrelevant if most people TP everywhere anyhow.
[2013/08/27 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: aye on “someone”; but nay on “everyone” 🙂 Thus privacy thingies
[2013/08/27 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hrrm brb
[2013/08/27 15:46]  Carolyn Criadic: its the illusion of being a virtual rich person in a virtual mansion with a virtual security system making you a virtual great big importan pperson
[2013/08/27 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have to admit, I used to care more for what my neighbors were making, but it was all so boring, I gave up! haha
[2013/08/27 15:46]  Carolyn Criadic: for the cost of lunch at McD once a week
[2013/08/27 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Although, on Sunday I found 20 people all meditating on a platform in the sky. Not one of them acknowledged me. Guess they were deep in a trance:)
[2013/08/27 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: It is not an illusion. I mean..I AM sat next to Ari on this sofa having a discussion with you and the others.
[2013/08/27 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Vast empty spaces punctuated by a few gathering spots. It was exactly the same on text-based MUCKs long before SL was invented.
[2013/08/27 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: A lot of people in SL these days think it is bad form to talk to anyone they don’t know. When I talk to people at clothing stores, I rarely get anything other than a yes or some other non communication.
[2013/08/27 15:48]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is offline.
[2013/08/27 15:48]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/08/27 15:48]  Ari (arisia.vita): wb Gwyn
[2013/08/27 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh? Well I find that people do talk. Not in clothes stores, but people I pass on my travels.
[2013/08/27 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: They don’t go to the shoppes to hang out and chat, that’s what Thinkers is for.
[2013/08/27 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Sometimes they do not, but maybe they are AFK?
[2013/08/27 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Or Luskwood!
[2013/08/27 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Everyone seems a bit nervous though, like they want to run away….
[2013/08/27 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I like luskwood!
[2013/08/27 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: People talk if you’re nice to them 🙂
[2013/08/27 15:49]  Second Life: Zel Rai (zel.ming) is online.
[2013/08/27 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and if they understand your language
[2013/08/27 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: I find that people are suspicious of others who talk to them that they don’t know.
[2013/08/27 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: See this is what I am talking about. I could fly my airship from Steiger where I live to Luskwood, only there are so many barriers and impassible sims I never succeed.
[2013/08/27 15:50]  Carolyn Criadic: soory i have to go it was nice to meet you all
[2013/08/27 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2013/08/27 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: laters
[2013/08/27 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: ..I did manage it one time, actually.
[2013/08/27 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: In the early days of SL it was impossible to fly a vehicle very far because of all the glitches and sim crossings and packet loss and general fail.
[2013/08/27 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: So it’s not like they’ve taken away an experience that we ever enjoyed. :/
[2013/08/27 15:51]  Second Life: Zel Rai (zel.ming) is offline.
[2013/08/27 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Sim crossing works fine now.
[2013/08/27 15:51]  Second Life: Jamie Marlin is online.
[2013/08/27 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well whenever I see big security barrier, I think…. jerk… haha
[2013/08/27 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, let me play devil’s advocate…
[2013/08/27 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Go on, them.
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You CAN cross a lot of sims if you travel over routes and railway lines.
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Don’t most barriers have an altitude limit?
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: I.E. you can fly over them?
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Zo, but you might not be able to see anything on the ground
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah…
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it used to be 4096m or so
[2013/08/27 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: there really aren’t that many linden routes out there. None within sight of this sim in any direction.
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: that’s not he point
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: But in that case you fly so high you see no builds just blue sky.
[2013/08/27 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *the
[2013/08/27 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I do have a highway that runs past my house!
[2013/08/27 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is just a mirror of what happens in RL
[2013/08/27 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are common grounds, public ways, and there is private property
[2013/08/27 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: oh, yes the build permissions and barriers stop at 4096
[2013/08/27 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you stick to the routes which are public, you will not have any barriers.
[2013/08/27 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: But Gwyn, sometimes the barriers cut across the road.
[2013/08/27 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, why should the “right” to trave across other people’s land be MORE important than the right to do whatever you please with your land?
[2013/08/27 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, in those cases, and if we’re talking about Linden roads, you should AR them
[2013/08/27 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Remember, I’m playing devil’s advocate here; I don’t necessarily subscribe to what I’m defending!)
[2013/08/27 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: Like I said before Linden roads are few and far between
[2013/08/27 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The argument that “There is just a limited number of routes” is a fallacy. IRL there is alos a limit on what is considered public land
[2013/08/27 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I shall be back in a moment or…several.
[2013/08/27 15:56]  Second Life: Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Pennyroyal/163/118/2202
[2013/08/27 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello!
[2013/08/27 15:56]  Jamie Marlin: E]Hello love!
[2013/08/27 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: :))
[2013/08/27 15:57]  Hug & Kiss 2.0 Deluxe (top right): Jamie Marlin invited you to a couple animation, choose ‘yes’ to accept
[2013/08/27 15:57]  Hug & Kiss 2.0 Deluxe (top right): say /50stop to stop the animation prematurely
[2013/08/27 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: *Squeeze*
[2013/08/27 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Are you home safe, sweety?
[2013/08/27 15:58]  Jamie Marlin: No – I am still at my sisters.
[2013/08/27 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh:)
[2013/08/27 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: *Me waves at RL sister*
[2013/08/27 15:58]  Jamie Marlin: They are watching some horror film, and I am kind of hiding
[2013/08/27 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh? What is it called?
[2013/08/27 15:59]  Jamie Marlin: Umm… it is a series called ‘Hemlock Grove’
[2013/08/27 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, I do not know that one.
[2013/08/27 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: got time for a five minute snuggle?
[2013/08/27 16:00]  Jamie Marlin: I don’t want to ruin Thinkers!
[2013/08/27 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I should not stay too long..
[2013/08/27 16:00]  Jamie Marlin: But yes. I will make 5 minutes
[2013/08/27 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: You are more important:)
[2013/08/27 16:00]  ~ball0: Allow adjusting your position by pressing Pgup and Pgdn keys at the same time
[2013/08/27 16:00]  :: /me Staring
[2013/08/27 16:01]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂 Is this OK?
[2013/08/27 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: *kisses you!*
[2013/08/27 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Lovely!
[2013/08/27 16:01]  Jamie Marlin: *kisses back*
[2013/08/27 16:01]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: so apart from being banished from the living room due to scary movies…
[2013/08/27 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: how is your visit?
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Jamie Marlin: My sis and her husband are both horror film fans
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: *Happily cuddles you*
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂 Very nice.
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Tell them to see Sinister if they have not already.
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Jamie Marlin: I really enjoy both ofthem – I wish they lived closer
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Jamie Marlin: Sinister??
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Jamie Marlin: I will
[2013/08/27 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: A film.
[2013/08/27 16:03]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂 I guessed
[2013/08/27 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: About a writer of true crime who moves his family into a home in which the previous family was murdered, and is not as concerned as he should be when he finds a box in the attic (which was not there before) showing several grisly murders plus some stranger in a scary mask observing each one…
[2013/08/27 16:04]  Jamie Marlin: 😦 I would never make it to the end!
[2013/08/27 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: It is a really scary movie:)
[2013/08/27 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: but enough of that..
[2013/08/27 16:04]  Jamie Marlin: They are sitting on their sofa under a pile of dogs and cats
[2013/08/27 16:05]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: they have a lot of pets?
[2013/08/27 16:05]  Jamie Marlin: oh gish. YES
[2013/08/27 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: like…millions?
[2013/08/27 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: well..probably not millions:)
[2013/08/27 16:06]  Jamie Marlin: She has 2 dogs and 8 cats in the house… another 25 or so cats outside
[2013/08/27 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo..
[2013/08/27 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Does she remember all their names? Do they have names?
[2013/08/27 16:06]  Jamie Marlin: Yes she does and they do… I cannot tell them apart
[2013/08/27 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:07]  Jamie Marlin: Too many of them are black and nearly identical
[2013/08/27 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Black? Then they probably have green eyes, like you:)
[2013/08/27 16:08]  Jamie Marlin: Most of them seem to be dark eyed
[2013/08/27 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh? Well…I always thought black cats had green eyes.
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: ..Sweety?
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I think maybe I had better get back..
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Jamie Marlin: Sweetheart? You should go back. I will make time to see you on facebook this week, I promise
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I just…had to come see you.
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Jamie Marlin: lol
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Jamie Marlin: :))
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: one more hug?
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Hug & Kiss 2.0 Deluxe (top right): Jamie Marlin invited you to a couple animation, choose ‘yes’ to accept
[2013/08/27 16:09]  Hug & Kiss 2.0 Deluxe (top right): say /50stop to stop the animation prematurely
[2013/08/27 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: You are the best!!
[2013/08/27 16:10]  Jamie Marlin: Of course. Love you now and always!
[2013/08/27 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: *kisses the top of your head*
[2013/08/27 16:10]  Jamie Marlin: :))
[2013/08/27 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Love you too.
[2013/08/27 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Got a good story to share when next we meet.
[2013/08/27 16:10]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂 And I will tell you all about everything!
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I will make sure of it!
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Second Life: Teleport completed from http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Steiger/171/12/143
[2013/08/27 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/08/27 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: and sit in it!
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Ari (arisia.vita): wb Exti
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SO hmm why are there curtains on a tub, if we have no privacy in SL? 😉
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Extie 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Sorry about that…Sis came online and I had to see her.
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Second Life: Jamie Marlin is offline.
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Ari (arisia.vita): that is cause for joy, not sorrow 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Compulsion, compulsion… hehehehe
[2013/08/27 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: …did I miss much?
[2013/08/27 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm. I don’t know, I was playing devil’s advocate for a long time
[2013/08/27 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes. I think you missed all of that
[2013/08/27 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tsk. Only Art commented lol
[2013/08/27 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Zo, occasionally
[2013/08/27 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I win! hahahahahahahahaha
[2013/08/27 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: I will not make you do it all agaiin, Gwyn:)
[2013/08/27 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll give you the highlights: you can travel without barriers if you stick to roads and railway tracks
[2013/08/27 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like in RL, there is common. public land…. and the rest is private
[2013/08/27 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: And waterways, for the most part!
[2013/08/27 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art’s argument: only 20% of Mainland is accessible that way
[2013/08/27 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, most waterways indeed
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: My house is also on a shoreline, as well as next to a road.
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: btw…why are there roads and railways?
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tried to argue with Art that 20% is enough, and she subtly moved the conversatio to a different issue — if people are creative in SL, why don’t they wish others to see their creations
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: I used to think SL roads were the most useless thing ever.
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah Extie
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tsk. Well.
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: used to?
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Now vehicles are working *somewhat* better, and I consider roads semi-useful. :/
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: oh.
[2013/08/27 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can only say…. some people enjoy travelling by airship; I love driving, but I prefer trains even more
[2013/08/27 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I enjoyed driving even when sim crossings failed a lot!
[2013/08/27 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: In many countries the idea of ‘right of way’ for travel on old pathways is respected. These right of ways cross tons of private lands,
[2013/08/27 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha. You had an ace up your sleeve!
[2013/08/27 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: You have to wait a long time for one, though. I once waited an hour for a train to turn up.
[2013/08/27 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very well, you’re right on that, Art
[2013/08/27 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: About my airship…
[2013/08/27 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow Extie. Remember me NOT to use that railway line lol
[2013/08/27 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It seems as bad as the RL railway service in some remote cities in my country hehe
[2013/08/27 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me usually brings her own train to the railway system
[2013/08/27 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least for the ones that are compatible
[2013/08/27 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: If I fly low enough to see the builds people have put up, I risk crashing into barriers. If I fly high enough to avoid that catastrophe I cannot see any builds, or just the tops of tall buildings.
[2013/08/27 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, my answer to that was: fly over railway tracks and Linden roads!
[2013/08/27 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or waterways
[2013/08/27 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You still get to see 20% of the mainland that way.
[2013/08/27 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is there anyone that thinks when they are facing an eject countdown. ” Gee I totally see why they are doing this and respect it without reservation”. OR are they like me thinking “What an A**hole!”?
[2013/08/27 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No barriers 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: It would be OK if you could see them from a distance, then you could fly up and over…but they have a nasty habbit of just…appearing in front of me.
[2013/08/27 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I usually go like this: “I must… be… patient…”
[2013/08/27 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: There are actually tour routes that run on the mainland with scripted vehicles, did you know?
[2013/08/27 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: I have ten seconds to get away…but that airship is not very fast.
[2013/08/27 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: I had no idea about that Zo
[2013/08/27 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, I haven’t come across those on the mainland, but certainly on lots of private sims
[2013/08/27 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I didn’t know about them until I saw the vehicles cruising past my place.
[2013/08/27 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: my argument, playing devil’s advocate, is that both can coexist. You can safely travel everywhere on public, common land. And that still gives you access to 20% of all Mainland.
[2013/08/27 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: I come across those ‘you have ten seconds to get lost’ security systems all the time when wanderinf mainland:(
[2013/08/27 16:21]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is offline.
[2013/08/27 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s a question of deciding, who has more rights? People paying for their parcel, or travellers who wish to enter other people’s parcels? 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: MY argument is get a private island if you want privacy or a skybox if you are too cheap to get an island.
[2013/08/27 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have ALL the rights cuz I am the QUEEN OF SL!!!!!!
[2013/08/27 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: islands are insanely expensive, that was what I also was saying…. a lot of people cannot afford thar
[2013/08/27 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *that
[2013/08/27 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: aye, that’s the Bouncer’s Syndrome again 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: so what you’re syaing is that only rich people should have privacy? 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *saying
[2013/08/27 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: I once tried to say hello to a new neighbor and she accused me of harassing her. >.<
[2013/08/27 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ouchie, Zo!
[2013/08/27 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: But for heaven’s sake do not litter mainland with barriers and security systems, ESPECIALLY not when you are hardly ever using your property anyway. I mean have you EVER seen anybody within those secure sims?
[2013/08/27 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The trouble with SL is that we have too many mentally deranged people around…. oops, I forgot, I’m one of them too!
[2013/08/27 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: They are always empty!
[2013/08/27 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, so what? In RL you can also put a lock and key on a door leading to an empty room.
[2013/08/27 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Nooooo
[2013/08/27 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a question of rights, or at least, perceived rights.
[2013/08/27 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I pay for my land, so I can do whatever I please with it, so long as it doesn’t go against the ToS
[2013/08/27 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not talking about wandering into somebody’s home. I NEVER do that without permission (might peer through the windows)
[2013/08/27 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why should OTHERS tell me what to do with MY land??
[2013/08/27 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Flying over or wandering, what it’s the difference?
[2013/08/27 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think SL is approximately 2X more expensive than it would be in order to grow faster or at all. If they could figure out that one, I think things would change for the better for all concerned.
[2013/08/27 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think you’re wrong, Art, but to explain why, it would take me a whole 15 minutes lol
[2013/08/27 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we just have 6
[2013/08/27 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2013/08/27 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course, there are those around who *would* wander into somebody’s home, if they can.
[2013/08/27 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Cuz the selling point of SL is that mainland is this contigous space you can cross from, It is not shards, each effectvely a whole world unto itself.
[2013/08/27 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking of personal price points vs entertainment value.
[2013/08/27 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, then what you’re suggesting, Extie, is that this area called “Mainland” should not be parcelled at all.
[2013/08/27 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: But then people put up barriers and my freedom to cross SL is compromised:(
[2013/08/27 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like a giant sandbox
[2013/08/27 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: If this sim was only $95 a month instead of $195, I think there would be far more land holders for instance.
[2013/08/27 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Your freedom to cross SL is the same as other people’s freedom of doing what they want for land THEY pay for. Why should non-paying customers have MORE rights over OTHER people’s land?
[2013/08/27 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (see, I’m good at this!)
[2013/08/27 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: /me has entered locked buildings using the cam-and-sit method before. :/
[2013/08/27 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: I say, if you want privacy, put your home way up in the sky and make your skybox secure from strangers.
[2013/08/27 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, what Extie said.
[2013/08/27 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why should you, Extie, tell others how to build in SL?
[2013/08/27 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: Unless you are an exhibitionist.
[2013/08/27 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is being an exhibitionist forbidden? 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: No, do you think it is?
[2013/08/27 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Because MY solution satisfies everybody, whereas those damn barriers and sims you get kicked out of are an infringement on MY rights of way.
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Simply put, Extie, what you’re actually saying is, “my right to cross other people’s land without barriers is more important than their right to do what they wish with the land to pay for, because I’m smarter(more good-looking/more important than them” 🙂 Admit it 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yeah! I’m with Extie on this one!
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: *high fives Art*
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have NO rights of way
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless you PAY for them
[2013/08/27 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: They can do what they wish, they just can’t deny the rest of us the right to cross
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m leaning toward Gwyn’s view here, I’ve got to say.
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re really not getting this.
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Well obviously I am smarter and prettier, but my argument does not rest on these axioms.
[2013/08/27 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You cannot tell others what to do with the land THEY pay for lol
[2013/08/27 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’ve never been a strict property rights trump all kind of person.
[2013/08/27 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what is yur RIGHT, Extie?
[2013/08/27 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not based on looks.
[2013/08/27 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not based on smarts.
[2013/08/27 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not based on money.
[2013/08/27 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s based on what?
[2013/08/27 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, they only pay for the rights that LL grants them, and that is changeable.
[2013/08/27 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because others have at least one of those things: money. They pay for it. You do not.
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: My right is to cross mainland unimpeded. Not to enter people’s homes or change their builds but simply to walk wherever I please.
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Ari (arisia.vita): it’s been great being with you all but alas, I must leave on time tonight…be well and happy and I’ll see you all again soon
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Art, and LL has definitely granted them rights to do whatever they please within the rules of the Tos 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cheers, Ari 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Ari (arisia.vita): bye for a bit
[2013/08/27 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: SL is like a serfdom with a benign King. They allow us to rent the land for our own livlihood and purposes, but it is still owned by the King.
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie, you say you have a “right” to cross mainland unimpeded. But that doesn’t seem to me like a right. It seems to me like a whim, or perhaps a hobby.
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: why do you have that right? Who has given you that right? How mch have you paid for that right?
[2013/08/27 16:30]  Second Life: Ari (arisia.vita) is offline.
[2013/08/27 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because, well, Linden Lab is actually nice! See, they build roads and railways and waterways, so *everybody? can use them.
[2013/08/27 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: The King has given us that right, Gwyn! heh
[2013/08/27 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And even better, they’re free to use!
[2013/08/27 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: I get that it’s a nuisance when you can’t do what you wanted, but that doesn’t mean your rights are violated.
[2013/08/27 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, well, in that case, I have to withdraw my argument, Art 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Zo
[2013/08/27 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: I want to fly my ship wherever I please, damn it! Not just follow roads.
[2013/08/27 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me tells the King to hang Gwyn the rebel.
[2013/08/27 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/08/27 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Awww leave Gwynie alone!
[2013/08/27 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You *want* something. Well, what are you willing to *give* in exchange for that? 🙂 And why are you against following roads or using other, public domain spaces?
[2013/08/27 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2013/08/27 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: hang her by her left toe!
[2013/08/27 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Remember, I’m *still* playing Devil’s Advocate 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course, ultimately LL set the rules here anyhow. We all have the rights that they decide to allow us. :/
[2013/08/27 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: for 5 minutes!
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I am against barriers and security systems put up in public places.
[2013/08/27 16:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Me too!
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. because I figured out the solution long ago, in 2004 in fact: democracy., Let people vote on what they allow others to do or not with their land. Alas, we have only managed to extend that to five sims….
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: mainland is a public place.
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No it isn’t!
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: private islands are for privacy..
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: PARTS of mainland are public
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Zobeid Zuma: If you can convince LL that doing away with barriers would ultimately benefit LL, then they’ll probably be gone pretty soon.
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The rest is parcelled out and rented
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Skyboxes are for privacy..
[2013/08/27 16:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: I consider this sim to be a public place. But maybe that is just me.
[2013/08/27 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Zo 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s YOUR sim, Art, so you can consider it to be whatever you wish 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because you pay for it, you are entitled to do whatever you wish
[2013/08/27 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you wish to consider it public, fine 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if not… well, it’s your right too
[2013/08/27 16:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: You mean I’m the benign dictator of my land? haha
[2013/08/27 16:34]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, there’s a difference (at least IRL) between public property and public space.
[2013/08/27 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely!
[2013/08/27 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Look, if I live in RL I cannot say ‘to hell with you you cannot walk past MY front door. I have to go live in a gated community or a private mansion with its own grounds. See what I am getting at?
[2013/08/27 16:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I definitely see what you are getting at Extie.
[2013/08/27 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you live in RL, technically you cannot jump over people’s hedges and cross their gardens without permission 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Fine..
[2013/08/27 16:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you can use the public roads!
[2013/08/27 16:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: LL should have included a grid of roads at the mainland sim edges when they designed the place, but then it would look like a checkerboard.
[2013/08/27 16:36]  Extropia DaSilva: A nice little wall or hedge or fence around somebody’s property..I can respect that. but not those horrible ugly yellow barriers!
[2013/08/27 16:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah! Then we’re talking technology!
[2013/08/27 16:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I will admit that the way barriers work in SL is rather… rude… if not crude… and it can be frustrating.
[2013/08/27 16:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me starts chanting Free the land! Free the land!
[2013/08/27 16:36]  Extropia DaSilva: right!
[2013/08/27 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, I find them ugly too.But let’s assume that LL would design some fantastically cool-looking barrier system. Would that be acceptable?
[2013/08/27 16:37]  Extropia DaSilva: NO.
[2013/08/27 16:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s mnot because they’re ugly, then?
[2013/08/27 16:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Its because mmmh
[2013/08/27 16:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have an idea. Limit security barriers only to structures, so you can see them in advance.
[2013/08/27 16:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you believe you have more rights than others 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that’s actually the crux of the problem.
[2013/08/27 16:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because, alas, we have all the same rights here 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome to Libertarian Life 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, for goodness sake what do they think I will do? Vandalise their property? Cannot do that without permission. Steal? Impossible. Interrupt them having kinky sex? They are not even home! So…what is the barrier protecing them from?
[2013/08/27 16:39]  Zobeid Zuma: The script telling you it’s going to eject you in ten seconds is actually the *less* offensive alternative to a yellow barrier that suddenly appears and you bounce off.
[2013/08/27 16:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t have rights here, we have ‘Terms of Service’ which is different from ‘rights’.
[2013/08/27 16:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s irrelevant what they want to do with their land; it’s irrelevant if they’re paranoid and irrational; all that’s relevant is that the land system in SL grants you some rights in exchange for payment.
[2013/08/27 16:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha, semantic wars! The last argument of someone who has no arguments left 😉
[2013/08/27 16:39]  Second Life: Thaddeus Sautereau is online.
[2013/08/27 16:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/08/27 16:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo, one time I fell on top of the barrier and I was just stuck bouncing on top of it, arms and legs flailing.
[2013/08/27 16:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok…
[2013/08/27 16:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: claiming semantics, the VERY last refuge of one with no arguments! haha
[2013/08/27 16:40]  Extropia DaSilva: we are running late..
[2013/08/27 16:40]  Extropia DaSilva: final comments then…
[2013/08/27 16:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Mainland is littered with impassable barriers and security systems which eject you from the sim if you are not on the list. Are these measures welcome forms of privacy or a denial of one’s right to wander freely across SL?
[2013/08/27 16:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, being completely vain, I think I’ve pleaded the Devil’s cause rather well. None of you guys gave me one GOOD reason for exolaining why non-paying residents (regarding to the land they pass through) are entitled to more rights than the people actually paying for the land they crosss.
[2013/08/27 16:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is no right to wander freely across SL, and, btw, you CAN wander freely across the parts that are public, so the question is fallacious 🙂
[2013/08/27 16:42]  Extropia DaSilva: PFft
[2013/08/27 16:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok well my time is up.
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