Thinkers August 06: Stewart Brand QUOTE

 Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2013/08/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Normally I start with a question…
[2013/08/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: But this time I am starting with a statement..
[2013/08/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Not mine, mind you..
[2013/08/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: But one made years ago by Stewart Brand’..
[2013/08/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Some say it is the most important statment made about the Internet..
[2013/08/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: and it it this..
[2013/08/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it’s so valuable… on the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other’.
[2013/08/06 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: full info anarchy go! \o/
[2013/08/06 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: so what is so important about that?
[2013/08/06 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: that I’ll know who you sleep with
[2013/08/06 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: !
[2013/08/06 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the way the cost of information is handled is through the marketplace.
[2013/08/06 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Pure and simple
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: You do know who I sleep with.
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: true!
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Most information isn’t that valuable, really. But some of it is. And also, sometimes sheer quantity has a quality all its own. I.E. “Big Data”.
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that’s actually a nice statement. It reminds me of the fight between journalists promoting social media (killing their own jobs) and journalists advocating for a re-interpretation of their job as providers of quality information (validated) on the Internet
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Rhi
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You guys do realize that one of these poses makes you look like you’re fondling your boob? Uh, not that that’s relevant to the topic
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: Well it directly applies to my profession. Photos are information and apparently they want to be free these days. And it is because of the internet. So I’m guessing he means massive rethink of how things are done.
[2013/08/06 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, Gwyn
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Nuvion and Naked. We just started to come and join us:)
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (now you know why I avoid the chairs, Rhi 🙂 )
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Nuvion, Naked Spirit
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: There are some poses in this couch that are really contortionist.
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Hello!
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, lol
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I’ve read a comment about some news clip from TV on the web, it went something like this: “I don’t even know if this is true, this is just a piece of news from the media.”
[2013/08/06 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t suppose it’s that bad when yoiu have clothes on, but in my case, it’s pretty darn suggestive
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, oh, I love it; all news should be delivered that way
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: IT reminded me of SL. You can get a lot of free stuff here, but equally sometimes things cost.
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe I know, Ivy. There is a huge split between both camps. Both are simultaneously right and wrong 🙂 (who said we humans are rational beings? 🙂 )
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Second Life: Kimiko Yiyuan is online.
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Ivy, that’s something that grinds me. News is breaking and they start giving out “early reports” that always turn out to be wrong, or “X is reporting that”, etc.
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: I know who said that humans are not rational beings
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: who?
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *snickers* @ Ivy
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, well, that is why it is so important to be critical
[2013/08/06 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Maybe Stewart Brand was referring to his own foray into the internet in which it all went to hell because nobody wanted to pay for it.
[2013/08/06 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Better just not watch TV and wait for The Week to show up in my mailbox. Saves a lot of time too.
[2013/08/06 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: ups, not that
[2013/08/06 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s funny though
[2013/08/06 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: this
[2013/08/06 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😀
[2013/08/06 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I find it interesting that most people only quote the first part, ‘information wants to be free’.
[2013/08/06 15:39]  Second Life: Jamie Marlin is online.
[2013/08/06 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: My sis is here! My sis!
[2013/08/06 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh I hope she can come over!
[2013/08/06 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2013/08/06 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, but the second part doesn’t seem to be incompatible–if the cost of getting information out keeps getting lower and lower, then the limiting case is that it will be free
[2013/08/06 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That would be nice for you, Extie
[2013/08/06 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree, Rhi..
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: What does it mean that information ‘wants’ to be free? Is it that it’s value is in its range of being disseminated?
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Jamie, hii!
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: hi Jamie
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Jamie Marlin: Hi!
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: in other words if no one sees it, it has no reason for being?
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My personal issue about “free information” is the high noise-to-signal ratio. Now, I’m aware of that ratio, and so I can act upon it, but the vast majority of people is not. They take everything for granted, because they were brought up by a society where the media had the reputation of validating their sources (notice the past tense).
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My take on that admittedly poetic and many-valued (i.e., meaningless) statement was that the natural flow of information is to everyone.
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Jamie
[2013/08/06 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Heya sweety:)
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: So Jamie..
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: we are discussing this statement..
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it’s so valuable… on the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other’.
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo are you in a cage? And in that case, shouldn’t you have your cat avatar?
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My roomie always says, “If my opinion is valuable, why should I give it away for free? On the other hand, if it’s not valuable, why should I post it, if it’s worthless?” She uses that comment to attack my blogging urges 🙂
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Huh? Cage??
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hiya Jamie!)
[2013/08/06 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: /me looks around, doesn’t see a cage…
[2013/08/06 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: information is much more than news, right? It is all media.
[2013/08/06 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, it’s the lamp shade right before you; looked like you were in it for a moment
[2013/08/06 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Blogging is addictive. Sometimes you have to say, why am I wasting time posting my opinion? The world will get by without it.
[2013/08/06 15:44]  Second Life: Kimiko Yiyuan is offline.
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –>
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t find blogging addictive, I write one post every few months on average :p
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Tell Moon, who I assume is the roomie, that when she gives away information she is adding to the accumulating wisdom from which we all ultimately benefit. ‘knowledge is a magic penny/ hold it tight you won’t have any/ lend it and spend it and you get so many/ they toll all over the floor.
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh yes Zo, that’s my favorite! 😀
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): I liked what I read on a definition of communication, as the transmission of information through various means.
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe I shouldn’t say “blogging”… I never could keep a blog going. But I mean posting comments on forums, reviews, etc.
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: that should be roll
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I haven’t blogged in ages; used to belong to Blogit, which encouraged other members to read your blog, as you had to in order to blog
[2013/08/06 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: The end result of blogging in the future, everyone will blog and no one will read it.
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, I think it’s almost that way now.
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: we will create cognitive computers to read our blogs!
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s my point too, but remember, she has a different background
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: I hereby retract my use of the word “blogging”, since you all have foolishly interpreted it as actual blogging instead of what I meant. 😛
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Namely, she is an artist.
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If I were to blog, would you all read it? Please, please, pretty, please
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And artists live to be paid for their work 🙂
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: In my profession of freelance photo, everyone needs to have a blog to link their other media stuff together. So it is almost required…….
[2013/08/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: that’s what the Googlebot does!
[2013/08/06 15:47]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): finding the right placement of information can be difficult
[2013/08/06 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: no, but I would listen to it if you make an audiobook!
[2013/08/06 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: The day we have cognitive computers the purpose of my blog is done.
[2013/08/06 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: google bot doesn’t read with comprehending, yet
[2013/08/06 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, deal
[2013/08/06 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Whew, I’m glad to hear that, Extie. It won’t happen in our lifetimes, so I’m going to continue to enjoy reading your blog for another half century or so 🙂
[2013/08/06 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: how do You know????
[2013/08/06 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: Once Google AI comprehends things, I think we will be surprised how unoriginal we all are, I’m thinking.
[2013/08/06 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If Googlebot were like the AI in a Koontz book I read, she wouldn’t want to reveal herself, as humans kill beings like her
[2013/08/06 15:48]  Second Life: Kimiko Yiyuan is online.
[2013/08/06 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: because it’s not made for that 😛
[2013/08/06 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Wow, somebody reads it?
[2013/08/06 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: Watson on the other hand….
[2013/08/06 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s why the AI in the Koontz book hid
[2013/08/06 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy has a point about audio books; you can listen while you do dishes; can’t do that with a blog; I tried it and oops, there went my laptop into the sink
[2013/08/06 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: You can have your computer read the blogs to you.
[2013/08/06 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: I have my sex slaves do the dishes for me
[2013/08/06 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh gosh!
[2013/08/06 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, now, that’s a good idea. Ivy, lucky you
[2013/08/06 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I quite like the thought of Aeni weaing only a marigold washing up glove.
[2013/08/06 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But wouldn’t they get all stinky, Ivy. Ewwww
[2013/08/06 15:50]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): What is a good definition of information to set the context?
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: the one from wikipedia? 😀
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: data that fits a purpose?
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “What do you want? Information. You won’t get it. By hook or by crook, we will. Who is number 1? You are, no. 6.”
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: I think information encompasses all media. Writing, audio, video, photo etc.
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: He was not a number. he was a free man.
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: dna…
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hahahahahahahaha
[2013/08/06 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh right, US already does DNA patents
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: Anything on the interwebs, is what Stewart Brand was referring to, I think.
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Second Life: Android Neox is offline.
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: DNA can be on the internet!
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Anything” hmm.
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: Porn is information
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Ivy. Code is code.
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Nuvion (luko.enoch): I think the distinction of worth while info and any old info is a hit and miss these days
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, there is data, and there is information. If you ask “what’s the difference?” that pretty much explains the sorry state of the Internet these days 🙂
[2013/08/06 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Porn should definitely be free
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, porn is only information if you’ve lead a *very* sheltered life.
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: What is worthwhile to me is no doubt worthless to others.
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wisely said, Extie.
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: if there is anything I’d be willing to get taxed for, it’s free porn for everyone
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: !
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Jamie Marlin: It seems to me that free information has way more value than ‘proprietary’ information. Isn’t the free exchange of information the basis of all science? And you can certainly argue that most of the wealth in the world today comes out of scientific discovery.
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me pats Extie on the knee. ‘There, there, someday your information will be valued. Just believe in yourself.’
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Nuvion: the noise outweighs the good info vastly. The future will be about tools to aggregate valid or useful info from all the noise.
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Second Life: Android Neox is online.
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But there is already free porn for everyone, Ivy: your wish has been granted!
[2013/08/06 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: \o/
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: I’m betting more on the future being *human* tools who aggregate valid or useful info.
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually there is so much free porn available now, there is some worry among those who make money from it that it is totally debasing the value of the stuff designed to be paid for.
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Jamie, i think you may have nailed why ‘information wants to be free.’ But the other part of the quotation shows why it really doesn’t matter if it’s free or proprietary
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not *mechanical* tools.
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, not for long in the UK, but I’m not staying here that long 😀
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: hear, hear
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Second Life: Android Neox is offline.
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: heaven forbid a decline of the port industry :p
[2013/08/06 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: porn, even
[2013/08/06 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: Let’s compare free vs not free information. A good movie vs a home made machinima. Which do you want to watch?
[2013/08/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the sake of my country, I hope there isn’t a decline of the port industry, either 🙂
[2013/08/06 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha
[2013/08/06 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: well one day haptics and VR will lead to a revival I am sure.
[2013/08/06 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, that’s ok, once porn isn’t free in the UK, they will subsidize it, then nationalize it, and there will be apecial BBC channel for it
[2013/08/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BBC-P
[2013/08/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BBC-XXX
[2013/08/06 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: 8am to 7pm will be porn for kids
[2013/08/06 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: what about a good home made machinima? 🙂
[2013/08/06 15:56]  Jamie Marlin: I guess I am taking the big view here…. exchanged information enriches everyone. Even if the exchange was a trade (your money for my movie). Information kept secret produces way less value
[2013/08/06 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: How about OpenSim as an example… They don’t have a functioning monetary system. They have freebie shops which are very limited and everything is garbage.
[2013/08/06 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): and then the Labor party will say that women can only be naked on the porn channel; they will demand garments like what nuns and mormons wear, be given to the poor
[2013/08/06 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Jamie, Hayek thought a presuupposition of capitalism and a free society was the free distribution of information, so there is a point here
[2013/08/06 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: (And that reminds me… I couldn’t get system hair to rez today. Is it not supported anymore?)
[2013/08/06 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: what about github? There is a lot of free, sometimes very valuable information there!
[2013/08/06 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: My hair rezzed.
[2013/08/06 15:57]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Love the topic
[2013/08/06 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha, I’m being a hypocrite. Talking about “free information” while my RL self was recently participating in rewriting national legislation to decriminalize piracy by making ISPs pay a special commission to pay royalties to artists
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: thanks, Naked!
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, systemhair? Is that anything like what I pick up from my dog–who sheds everywhere (and I do mean *everywhere*)
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: new one same time each week!
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: excellent example on OpenSim. The only good content is pirated content.
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: Speaking of information wanting to be free, we have talked in my professional organization about the decline of quality in photos. We see this quality decline in writing and other creative things as well. As long as people need to make a living, I don’t think people can take the time to do quality creative work for free IN GENERAL.
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: System hair… not prim hair. Am I the only one old enough to remember system hair? 😀
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, let me rephrase that: there is good content on OpenSim too, but not accessible, and usually not for sale 🙂
[2013/08/06 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, I have no idea what you’re talking about; I know I’m just a kid
[2013/08/06 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: it’s a pity that 99% of the human population,. who are NOT artists, cannot understand your simple statement.-
[2013/08/06 15:59]  Second Life: Lucius Diller is offline.
[2013/08/06 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve heard a lot of angst about how cellphone cameras are killing the (real) camera industry.
[2013/08/06 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, you seem to be trying to find an alternative way to pay those who create information. Nothing wrong with that, except, yes, we should be aware information comes from somebody
[2013/08/06 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I spend several days per year fighting a cousin of mine, who wants all artists to become full-time burguer flippers and stair-washers, and do their art in their spare time to distribute it for free.
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yes, and with TV, there will be no place for radio.
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn: we attribute the current lack of discernment to the super low quality of social media photos, that make an average photo appear to be great.
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: you don’t need an artists to make a photo of your lunch
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, that already basically happened long ago, Rhi.
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not me, Rhi, I just helped to make a few revisions… ironically, that proposal came from the Communist Party 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: I agree with you! We’re getting de-sensitives (sp?)
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me blinks
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): so information in itself does desire to be free or not free but people want it to be free or not free
[2013/08/06 16:00]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): ?
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): doesnt*
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: People desire information to be free; information is not yet self-aware 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Naked it is people who desire information to be free…. heh
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): haha
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): just clearning that up
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: what about… memes?
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: I mean, Dawkin’s memes, not lolcats
[2013/08/06 16:01]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): memes didnt make themselves though right?
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meme: an invented buzzword to make Dawkins rich. By selling books.
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, memes are fine; love the idea of communicating with just gestures. Oh, wait, that’s mimes. nvm
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, if we are to talk about information “wanting” anything
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: it would want to spread
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Scarp Godenot: The more information is out there, the less time we spend looking at any specific thing, this alone devalues the information.
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: and analogy to genes here is spot on I think
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): motivations of mankind determine the value of information?
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW why did Brand rephrase the statement ‘information should be free’ to ‘wants to’?
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my, Ivy. So information is slef-aware?
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *self-aware
[2013/08/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or, at least, alive?
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naked: I would agree with that statement.
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Naked, no, someone is always behind it–like Rosalyn knew the guy who made ‘vanish’ into a verb, like in David Copperfieldvanished the Empire STate building
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: no, but neither are genes, and yet we have no problems giving them pseud-agent attributes
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: pseudo-agent*
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Ivy 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, that raises the issue of teleological vs mechanistic language in describing things.
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It does indeed.
[2013/08/06 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Does information want to be free in the same sense that water ‘wants’ to flow downhill?
[2013/08/06 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or maybe we’re just anthromorphising what ‘happens’ with information.
[2013/08/06 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: I think that Brand was saying the tendency of information to spread without regard to compensation, was equivalent to the information ‘wanting’ to spread.
[2013/08/06 16:04]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): nature programmed information
[2013/08/06 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s a better analogy, I think
[2013/08/06 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: and what about the converse statement of expensive?
[2013/08/06 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, to say something ‘wants to’ means its purpose is to…so information’s purpose or function is to be free
[2013/08/06 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, Scarp: it’s just a metaphor, an allegory, or an image (I don’t remember which lol )
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Second Life: Kimiko Yiyuan is offline.
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie… I think I have an example
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): I bet the information that encodes the secret to every womans heart in here does desire to be free but not all at once right?
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): it’s like military secrets–they are never secrets for long, and they don’t always need a Manning or Snowden to flow freely
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: But there is a pressure for the information to spread, because there are too many holes in the dike to put fingers in.
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Naked Spirit, are you fantasizing again?
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): again?
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s postulate we have two Wall Street stock brokers. One has teh whole Internet to earch for information. The other gets a feed from, say, Bloomberg. Which one is likely to make more money?
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): always
[2013/08/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *search
[2013/08/06 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the internet guy; Bloomberg isn’t a reliable source
[2013/08/06 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: the first one, if he can actually process the whole internet
[2013/08/06 16:06]  Second Life: Kimiko Yiyuan is online.
[2013/08/06 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now name me one billionnaire who actually works that way 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn, the crooked one
[2013/08/06 16:06]  Second Life: Android Neox is online.
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure the stock market is a good example. It’s dynamically unstable.
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I only know two billionnaires personally, and I can guarantee that neither relies on the Internet (although they certainly use it as well)
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): so back to free vs valuable info…what info desires to be valuable?
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, most things in life are far more unstable than we think they are 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, I think it was magically delicious. No, wait, that’s Captain Crunch. No, that’s Lucky Charms.
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: Yes Zo, a full example of Chaos in action.
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: The information you really need, I guess.
[2013/08/06 16:07]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): hmm interesting
[2013/08/06 16:08]  Nuvion (luko.enoch): an image or a video or so on of better clarity or quality is something people have always been willing to pay for
[2013/08/06 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is information that is valuable only if it’s spread
[2013/08/06 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: Interesting question Naked
[2013/08/06 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, you make information sound like margerine
[2013/08/06 16:08]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): or other things
[2013/08/06 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: well, take language for example. You can invent your own language, but it’s not very useful if nobody else speaks it
[2013/08/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so we can’t talk about finance…. example #2. A Nobel prize winner is researching some data for her next award-winning scientific breakthrough. Which kind of information is she going to rely upon, blogs by Russian maverick scientists or peer-reviewed articles on academic journals? 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, fair enough. So you market it in the right way–put it in a TV series or a book series that’s popular or say it’s the way to end all wars
[2013/08/06 16:09]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): this question could turn into a valuable information think tank worth a lot of money
[2013/08/06 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: /me erms…
[2013/08/06 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Klingonese, Elfin, and Esperanto
[2013/08/06 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: and while we don’t invent human languages on daily basis, we do invent computer protocols on daily basis
[2013/08/06 16:09]  Scarp Godenot: Value is assigned based on the desire of one to consume the valuable thing.
[2013/08/06 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the case fo information, I believe that a huge part of the value is “reputation”, which is based on validation
[2013/08/06 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I could also throw in the word “quality”, but not in the sense “I like it, so it must have quality”
[2013/08/06 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But in the sense of “repeatable manufacture of a certain artefact will provide exactly the same results”
[2013/08/06 16:11]  Second Life: Kimiko Yiyuan is online.
[2013/08/06 16:11]  Nuvion (luko.enoch): yes like in focus against a blurry image
[2013/08/06 16:11]  Jamie Marlin: I think that I interpret the phrase “Information wants to be free’ differently than most. I see ‘free’ meaning ‘exchanged’ no ‘without value’
[2013/08/06 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is why, say, a movie from Disney (to give a polemic example) is more “valuable” than a movie from an amateur YouTubber
[2013/08/06 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ooooh excellent point, Jamie!
[2013/08/06 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well that depends on whether we’re talking about The Long Ranger or not
[2013/08/06 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: This reminds me of the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance where the author boiled everything down to the ‘pursuit of quality’.
[2013/08/06 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Jamie, there is a saying, a mnenomic I guess, which distinguished between two interpretations of free ‘Free as in speech and free as in beer’.
[2013/08/06 16:12]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): I agree Jamie’s point was “valuable”
[2013/08/06 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is the ‘free software’ that isn’t exactly for free
[2013/08/06 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: Nietzche would say pursuit of quality was part of ‘Will to Power’.
[2013/08/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, my point is if the Lone Ranger comes from Disney, it has a perceived value based on Disney’s reputation (but also marketing!), while a YouTube production of the Lone Ranger might be good, might be bad, but you cannot build expectations reliably upon that
[2013/08/06 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: speech and beer examples are great 😀
[2013/08/06 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, Nietzche would say taking a good crap is part of The Will to Power.
[2013/08/06 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: But all information on the Internet can be exchanged, and it is only artificial restraints which makes it difficult to copy freely.
[2013/08/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: exactly, I was almost quoting them for the definition of quality
[2013/08/06 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Gwyn, I’ve seen far too many disheartening examples of the phenomenon you describe.
[2013/08/06 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: polish has different words for ‘free’ in ‘free speech’ and ‘free’ in ‘free beer’
[2013/08/06 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, and my point is that the perception isn’t always true, and needs feedback. You can find gems *everywhere* if you look
[2013/08/06 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Rhi: I think it was Martin Luther who would say that…. heh
[2013/08/06 16:14]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): free could be in the context of liberated
[2013/08/06 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I think that ENglish is one of the few languages which does NOT have different words for them 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: would make sense!
[2013/08/06 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Wonderful, brilliant creations that founder and sink because their publisher isn’t know, they aren’t distributed widely, they aren’t marketed, etc. While mediocre output from big companies gets praised and praised.
[2013/08/06 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: free slaves!
[2013/08/06 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “95 theses on the wall; 95 thesis; if one of those theses should havppen to fall; 94 theses on the wall.” The limiting case being Cahtolicism
[2013/08/06 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: Value is created by desire. And desire can be created by marketing.
[2013/08/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: for sure! For example, as we speak, there might be a blog somewhere who is doing absolutely accurate predictions of the stock market, and it might not be “by chance”. Nevertheless, billionnaires go with reuters, Bloomberg, and so forth, because they have a better perceived reputation
[2013/08/06 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, sometimes the English use the word ‘gratis’ to emphasise when free really does mean FREE.
[2013/08/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[2013/08/06 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Cuz usually ‘free’ means somebody else is paying, or you are in a roundabout way.
[2013/08/06 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “This is the Land of the Free. Free means you don’t have to pay, right” Jerry Rubin
[2013/08/06 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: or just ‘free of charge’
[2013/08/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: it’s true, and it’s more and more true these days. Nevertheless, the point is that good quality outside of the establishment is as rare as inside the establishment 🙂 The difference being, the establishment is able to PAY people 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: Someone always pays for ‘free’ at some level.
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TANSTAAFL
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, yes. TANSTAAFL
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): is there any information that has no value?
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me locks eyes with Gwyn
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Jamie Marlin: There is a thing in economics… systems that allow capital to flow freely expand faster than systems where money is hoarded in a few places. Information is like that. If you exchange it, it creates value for everyone. If you try to monopolize it, you may get a momentary advantage, but overall value is diminished
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’ll turn Scarp into a libertarian yet
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2013/08/06 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: wtf is TANSTAAFL
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: But it could be that what you personally pay is such a tiny fraction of a penny, or a cent, that it is free by all practical definitions.
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: ?
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: oh haha
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “someone always pays”
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if it’s through taxes.
[2013/08/06 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Coined by Heinlein; on the Moon, an Earthling is taken to a cafetaria with a sign–free lunch, $10.00
[2013/08/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: aye, that’s the beauty of crowdfunding, crowdsourcing, and long tail economics.
[2013/08/06 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): When the Moon rebelled against the Earth, TANSTAAFL became their national slogan
[2013/08/06 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Heinlein coined that phrase?
[2013/08/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me loves Rhi’s taste in SF
[2013/08/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2013/08/06 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes
[2013/08/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, allegedly, yes
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Jamie Marlin: Certainly I saw there first
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But it spread like wildfire through the libertarian and conservative communities
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All SF freaks at least quote Heinlein as the coiner of that phrase 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, he may have gotten it from his wife
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahah seriously????
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: So the pressure for information on the internet to be free is there, we admit that, right? How will that play out over time?
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, I’ve learned something new today! And it was for free!
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Second Life: Annie (annielove.welles) is offline.
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I’m just saying, when he wanted to make love to her, she would say it.
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Jamie Marlin: *giggles*
[2013/08/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: now that depends on how much you believe in conspiracy theories 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is model 1, which discards conspiracies.
[2013/08/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, the natural tendency of information to be free will break up conspiracies
[2013/08/06 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: Will governments step in and reign in ‘Free’?
[2013/08/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Under that model, you will see quality information rising to the top, and, as such, it becomes valuable; and it will be paid (but probably cheap)
[2013/08/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is also model #2
[2013/08/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, they will try, but there will always be Mannings and Snowdens, and computer hackers, et. al
[2013/08/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Government is easier if people are stupid
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, the more worthless the free information is,
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the better for governments
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they will encourage free information as much as possible.
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Government is easier if people are not paying attention.
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take your pick 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Some people are pretty successful at making money by giving away their products. Radiohead, for example, let fans pay whatever they wanted to the ‘In Rainbows’ album, and it turned out to be the best sellng album the band ever had. Some popstars make all their money from tours and see piracy as free publicity.
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): flood the earth with valuless info like flooding it with printed money
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, which leads to Lincoln’s saying, (which he got from my Great Aunt Maude), “You can fool some of the people all the time; all the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time”
[2013/08/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, that’s a softer version of Model 2, Scarp. It could also be correct.
[2013/08/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that’s from Lincoln? Mmmh. Another quote I’m very fond of 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:23]  Second Life: Magic Pathfinder (any1.gynoid) is offline.
[2013/08/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I specialise in “fooling all the people some of the time” hehe
[2013/08/06 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that’s a standard marketing gimmick–first thing is free, and then you get hooked. It’s a filter against people who don’t want your product and so you don’t waste your time with trying to attract them
[2013/08/06 16:23]  .:  .
[2013/08/06 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, it’s from Lincoln
[2013/08/06 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: TED let you watch videos of their talks for free while charging upwards of $6,000 to attend a conference.
[2013/08/06 16:23]  .:  I fell in love one afternoon
[2013/08/06 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: Most rock bands make their money ONLY from playing live. Which brings up the point that most artists can only make money with physical art objects for sale….
[2013/08/06 16:23]  .:  and wrote your name on a white balloon
[2013/08/06 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: I jhear a music box..
[2013/08/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, exactly: the TANSTAAFL principle at work. Do concerts, make a ton of money from that, then you can give away MP3 or AAC or whatever the current standard is for free.
[2013/08/06 16:24]  .:  I set it free to fly above
[2013/08/06 16:24]  .:  and dreamt it was a flying dove
[2013/08/06 16:24]  .:  . .
[2013/08/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or the Stallman/Kurweil method: become an academic, get tenure, sell conferences, publish books, then you can give away a LOT of information for free.
[2013/08/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TANSTAAFL rulez 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So we have learned Lincoln was the author of a great saying, the TANSTAAFL principle, that information wants to be free, except when it costs. This has been very productive
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): that plays into information rightly placed can render more value from it. Like a person with interesting gifts rightly placed in society will render more value monetarily from that person?
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: Will commerce be necessary in a future world in which replicators make goods and information is everywhere and free?
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Jamie Marlin: I have to go – RL calls. Lovely discussion everyone… I wish I could stay!
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Take care Jamie
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Good inputs!
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sarp, actually, yes. In “Beware of Terrans Bearing Gifts,” the author argued that original works of art would be the only things of value
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Replicators won’t make things for free.
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A left-wing friend of mine proposes that there is an Universal Minimum Subsidy to be given out to everybody. His idea is that a lot of people just want to give away their content, whatever it is, and often it’s very high quality. Unfortunately, they have to eat, pay rent, pay for Internet & power. So give those people the minimum for survivael (a burden placed on society), and, in exchange, they will work every day to produce free, quality content.
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Second Life: Jamie Marlin is offline.
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, no, but they will make us like plants–we get our goods from the air and the soil
[2013/08/06 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: Rhi who would know the work was original if you could replicate it exactly?
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, it would start somewhere
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There would always be a “firt” one.
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *first
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: You know Jamie is in Singapore right now? But thanks to the Internet it does not mean she and I cannot be in the same room. :)) Yay! Internet!
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually mmmh we have a similar principle operating in SL….
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think so, Rhi. Not anytime soon, at least. :/
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In the story, it was just a ploy to get a military dictatorship to exxhange their art for a replicator–the ultimate idea being replicator technology would dissolve the government
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The reason why some content creators output a tremendous amount of new content every week,
[2013/08/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: is not because they’re greedy or workoholics,
[2013/08/06 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but because they are aware that what matters is to be the first producing original content
[2013/08/06 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: it is because they are both?
[2013/08/06 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh:)
[2013/08/06 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: which will be soon copied, imitated, etc
[2013/08/06 16:28]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): what information do you people think should be less costly to you right now?
[2013/08/06 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, didn’t think it would; right now we can only synthesize helium from hydrogen, and it causes a great big boom
[2013/08/06 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they “ride the wave” of innovation — and try to profit as much as they can
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Scientific papers. I think they should be readable for free. Often, though, you need to pay to read them.
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Original content? Nobody cares about original content. What matters is… Sequels! Spinoffs! Established franchises!
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: In The Diamond Age, it isn’t the physical objects that are valuable, but the software that tells the nannotech what and how to build that is valuable.
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A good question, Naked 🙂 In my case, I don’t pay DIRECTLY for the information I need hehe
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, but the most money is usually made by the FIRST.
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: The Mona Lisa is not worth a great deal in terms of raw materials, Scarp.
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): hmm you pay indirectly?
[2013/08/06 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: or have “someone” to pay for them.
[2013/08/06 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naked: yes
[2013/08/06 16:30]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): What did you have to exchange for the indirect method of cost coverage?
[2013/08/06 16:30]  Second Life: Magic Pathfinder (any1.gynoid) is online.
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Anyone ever hear the theory that the Mona Lisa was Leonardo in drag? That’s why she was smirking.
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Not that that is relevant to the topi
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): haha
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my case: I pay taxes; which provides government with funds; which pay a slice to the EU; which in turn creates a fund from which my grant is paid; which allows me to study; which means some money goes to my university; which, in turns, pays for the academic articles I can read for free. So I’m still paying, just not directly.
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: If it was that simple, Gwyn, Hollywood wouldn’t be doing what it’s doing today. (cratering?)
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK we had better have closing statements….So information wants to be free AND it wants to be expensive but which has the greater imperative?
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Second Life: Naring’nari (joey.aboma) is online.
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): ahh I see
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I realise it’s not so simple 🙂
[2013/08/06 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My answer to that: depends on what conspiracy theory you currently subscribe to hehe
[2013/08/06 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, that was actually Ayn Rand’s argument why you can ethically take a government grant. It is your money anyway, stolen from you.
[2013/08/06 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hopefully it’s a FREE subscription!)
[2013/08/06 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: In the short run, I am observing with the internet that creatives are declining in their ability to make money from their efforts. Why is this? Is it that everyone is creative and hasn’t been able to show that previously?
[2013/08/06 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: it can’t be so simple, there are too many officials to feed from your money on the way
[2013/08/06 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: If either impulse had a big advantage, it would be obvious and we wouldn’t be asking the question.
[2013/08/06 16:32]  Ɲaked ﻜpirit (nakedspirit): Information should be expensive until new relevant information replaces it. then the now old information can be less expensive.
[2013/08/06 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
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