THINKERS JULY 23 2013: WHY SO MUCH VIOLENT VIDEOGAMES?

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to thinkers!
[2013/07/23 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2013/07/23 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Why is violence predominant in videogames?
[2013/07/23 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because adrenaline sells almost as well as sex?
[2013/07/23 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, people have violent fantasies which are realized, violence is equated to action; violence generates adrenalyn, which is fun.
[2013/07/23 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Even if hard to spell
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: by definition: “Violence is the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against a person (…)” – no game has violence in it unless it has multiplayer
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Second Life: Magic Pathfinder (any1.gynoid) is online.
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Buttons. When you play a videogame you press buttons. This best suits situations where reactions take over. Life or death situations, in other words.
[2013/07/23 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Welcome to Thinkers group Adur and Sfindra
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Sfindra Belar: ty 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, thanks for coming over..
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Always nice to see new faces.
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice semantical twist, Ivy 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s probably a lot of history involved too, if you look at how videogames originated.
[2013/07/23 15:36]  Second Life: Peter Stindberg is offline.
[2013/07/23 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Sfindra, Adur
[2013/07/23 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi new faces!
[2013/07/23 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: and even when it does have multiplayer, it must cause some psychological trauma to a player
[2013/07/23 15:37]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂 I don’t think that can be the whole answer… because there are people like me who love games and don’t particularly like violence
[2013/07/23 15:37]  Adur Gaelyth: Thank you ツ
[2013/07/23 15:37]  Adur Gaelyth: Hi Rhia ツ
[2013/07/23 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A lot of what’s called violence is the primordial battle between good and evil
[2013/07/23 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: do you avoid violent games, Jamie?
[2013/07/23 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm. Violence in videogames is not “real”…. like abuse online is not abuse? 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And we’re all caught up in that, but would like to experience it safely. Games are safe
[2013/07/23 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: abuse of who? 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: So the topic is “Why does violence predominate in Video Games”.
[2013/07/23 15:38]  Jamie Marlin: No – but I am not drawn to them. And I do avoid graphically violent ones
[2013/07/23 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, that’s different; verbal abuse is real abuse; the violence is not real violence. You don’t get riddled with real bullets
[2013/07/23 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:39]  Jamie Marlin: If you look at the broader board-gaming market, non-violent games sell much better than violent ones
[2013/07/23 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If someone calls you a c*** in text, that’s real.
[2013/07/23 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: It depends, Gwyn. when you play a multiplayer shooter the content can seem very violent but the community around it can be quite jovial and friendly. It is more like a playground game of tag than violence.
[2013/07/23 15:39]  Sfindra Belar: surely violence is violence whether its physical or non physical ?
[2013/07/23 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If you got zapped by electricity every time you were shot in a game, then maybe it’s real.
[2013/07/23 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But not *as* real
[2013/07/23 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice idea, Rhi 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: well would the game be more violent if you were killing people instead of robots?
[2013/07/23 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There ar, um, devices you can insert into yourself, and your distant partner can press a button, and…well, you know
[2013/07/23 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s real
[2013/07/23 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m trying to thing of video games that aren’t violent and I come up with racing and hunting for treasure games. So I think that active engagement is required and also being goal oriented is required to get people addicted.
[2013/07/23 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Remember in the 90s when Nintendo toned down Mortal Kombat by removing the blood and fatalities?
[2013/07/23 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: There are *lots* of videogames that aren’t violent.
[2013/07/23 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Maybe most games have one thing in common, and that is Competition.
[2013/07/23 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that especially true today? More so than in the past?
[2013/07/23 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: back at school some of the guys wanted to organize a tournament of sorts in IT classroom, they were allowed, but the game weren’t supposed to be violent, which ruled out the game they wanted to play: Age of Empires
[2013/07/23 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Even questing games are competetive, no?
[2013/07/23 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, maybe they could have reframed it. “it’s not violent, it’s competitive,” or something
[2013/07/23 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Age of EMpires was deemed violent?
[2013/07/23 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: should I be a parent in the time, I’d let my child play AoE as soon as it can comprehend what’s going on
[2013/07/23 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: yes, after all, it has people killing people in it! D:
[2013/07/23 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Competition” is violence?
[2013/07/23 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: What about technical limitations? It is easier to simulate death than it is to simulate life.
[2013/07/23 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah… right, I forgot that
[2013/07/23 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think this competition and goal orientation of video games is why people are so confused whtn they encounter Second Life. There is no single goal and there is no competition outside of who is better dressed….. heh
[2013/07/23 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: I say, either all games where there is bodily harm done are to be labeled as violent, or none of them are unless they involve player on player interaction
[2013/07/23 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: where one player can explicitly grief another
[2013/07/23 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree, Art..
[2013/07/23 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There are sims like that in SL; you can buy a whole griefer armory for them
[2013/07/23 15:46]  Adur Gaelyth: Good point Art ツ
[2013/07/23 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Reminds me of a woman who was using SL and her 7 year old son kept asking ‘who is on our side and who do we shoot’?
[2013/07/23 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: We may be answering the wrong question… Why is violence predominant in videogames? It’s not! But why is it *persistent* in videogames?
[2013/07/23 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: How successful are the war type sims in SL these days?
[2013/07/23 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, no idea. And no idea how to measure success, either
[2013/07/23 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think another question to ask is why don’t first person shooter games get boring for their users?
[2013/07/23 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo, good question… I still think it’s alla bout adrenaline
[2013/07/23 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: In the early days of videogames, in the 1980s, there were a lot of “shooters”, but there were also a *lot* of other kinds of games.
[2013/07/23 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *all about even
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Adur Gaelyth: Probably the biass towards violence comes from the film industry…
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: It is persistant because first-person shooters are very popular, button mashing maps best to life and death situations, and videogame AI is not much use for anything beyond running for cover and shooting.
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Then we went through the Fighting Game era and the FPS era, when violence really was dominant.
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Adur Gaelyth: it’s inconceivable to have a blockbuster movie without violence
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Adur
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Then came the rise of “Casual Gaming”….
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: The Journey.
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I prefer RL games like that; like the shooting competition where you arrive in a van, jump out, start shooting the bad guys, and hoping to miss the good guys. Really fun
[2013/07/23 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: That was a great game, no violence.
[2013/07/23 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think if you look at the great majority of top MMORPGs they are war related in some way.
[2013/07/23 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems to be related to the size of the audience.
[2013/07/23 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d like to ask a supplementary question: whether games are bloated with violence or not – does it matter?
[2013/07/23 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, it matters to this conversation, and, right now, that’s all that matters to all of us
[2013/07/23 15:49]  Adur Gaelyth: Yes I think it matters
[2013/07/23 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: When games are mainstream entertainment, non-violent games flourish. When games go out of fashion, the hard core who do stick with them are teenage boys who like to blow stuff up.
[2013/07/23 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If you’re asking what does it matter in the Grand Scheme of Things, the answer is probably not much
[2013/07/23 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, maybe it doesn’t matter other than young minds are focused on solving problems with violence and guns.
[2013/07/23 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: So it’s just a case of testosterone poisoning! 😛
[2013/07/23 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me wonders what it would be like to engage young minds in solving problems through pure mathematics. Heh.
[2013/07/23 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: eek.
[2013/07/23 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: are they?
[2013/07/23 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are plenty of women and girls in the MMORPGs, it isn’t a male only thing.
[2013/07/23 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: MMORPGs aren’t *that* violent. They are usually more multi-faceted.
[2013/07/23 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: They aren’t like Doom.
[2013/07/23 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Right. One can be a healer, for example.
[2013/07/23 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: I think that shooters, especially modern multi-player shooters, focus on solving problems by teamwork and cooperation
[2013/07/23 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well they might be multifaceted, but most of the action and leveling up is based on destroying things and other avatars.
[2013/07/23 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I like shooting, and I’m a girl. A good third of the people at gun ranges are female
[2013/07/23 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But here I go, talking RL again. Sorry
[2013/07/23 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: But can anyone think of a top-selling videogame that was aimed at women?
[2013/07/23 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: bum, bye Rhi!
[2013/07/23 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure if a trip to the target range really correlates to “violence” even.
[2013/07/23 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, Ivy, I meant in my comment. I get to stay in SL for a while–as long as I’m good later
[2013/07/23 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: ah, ok 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: you are always good, Rhi dear.
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Adur Gaelyth: good question Extie… I can’t think of one
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is offline.
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): For me, it’s–spend a few hours in front of the computer, shooting, or spend a few hours at the range, shooting. The latter always wins
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2013/07/23 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: I read an article recently that was bemoaning the fact that there are few female character choices in most big games. And that there is resistance to putting them in by many of the big game company execs.
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Some might suggest The Sims….? :/
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: Breivik was playing WoW in order to “prepare” for his killing, though it was for it’s ability to suck you in and cut off all social contacts, not violence.
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, but isn’t there also only a few male characters?
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That title crossed my mind, Zo 🙂
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The soldier, the knight, the killer…
[2013/07/23 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, the Sims…yeah.
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, who’s Breivik?
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Second Life: Thaddeus Sautereau is offline.
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I thought I knew all the major serial killers
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: One…no..two of videogams’ most iconic characters are female, of course.
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: /me had to google that name…
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): (not personally, I mean)
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: seriously? :O
[2013/07/23 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seriously.
[2013/07/23 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: let me find a list of the top MMOGs and let’s see what they are.
[2013/07/23 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yeah.
[2013/07/23 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Laura Croft and what’s her name
[2013/07/23 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: I thought that was the loudest shooting in Europe in a long long time
[2013/07/23 15:56]  Adur Gaelyth: Lara! Please
[2013/07/23 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, “western” Europe
[2013/07/23 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: The other is Sameus from Metroid.
[2013/07/23 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: It was big. But I don’t make a habit of remembering the names of perpetrators of things like that. They don’t deserve it. :/
[2013/07/23 15:57]  Second Life: Thaddeus Sautereau is online.
[2013/07/23 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, well, Europe. No wonder. The best serial killers are American.
[2013/07/23 15:57]  Adur Gaelyth: I don’t know Sameus… is she cute? ツ
[2013/07/23 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: yup, Obama for one
[2013/07/23 15:57]  Adur Gaelyth: lol
[2013/07/23 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We take pride–no Obama is a mass killer; that’s different
[2013/07/23 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: ah true, I stand corrected
[2013/07/23 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Although I do see the similarities
[2013/07/23 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: No she looks more like master chief. It was quite a twist when, originally, this big mechanized warrior removes ‘his’ helmet and you discover it was a woman all along.
[2013/07/23 15:58]  Adur Gaelyth: Oh cool
[2013/07/23 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Violence is an easy way to provide conflict and challenge in a game. It’s the most overt kind of conflict, easy to depict and easy to understand.
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … dng…. have to run earlier. Sorry!
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I think one of the later final Fantasies had a female lead. But none of these female characters were less violent, were they?
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: bye Gwyn!
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s an old twist though. I saw 30’s movies where the spy, or the hit man, or the villian, turns out to be a woman. You can always tell, as they have on a helmet, mask, gloves, are in the dark
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is offline.
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye Gwyn!
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Adur Gaelyth: I agrre Zobeid
[2013/07/23 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Gwyn Don’t kill anybody
[2013/07/23 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: the best part about all shooting stories is when media try to sniff whether the killer was playing violent games
[2013/07/23 16:00]  Adur Gaelyth: Ah yes ツ
[2013/07/23 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: since the chances of a kid, any kid, for *not* playing violent games is like 3%
[2013/07/23 16:00]  Adur Gaelyth: lol
[2013/07/23 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s the cheapest sensation you can possibly get
[2013/07/23 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: the press is always after a simple solution to the problem of violence.
[2013/07/23 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, I forget the name of the fallacy, but it’s used all the time. “Most heroin addicts started on marijuana.” Well, milk, actually…
[2013/07/23 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha too hard to find a list of the most used online games, because the reviewers only list games they like. Which makes for zero consensus.
[2013/07/23 16:01]  Adur Gaelyth: lol Rhia
[2013/07/23 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: The ‘Thin Entering Wedge’ fallacy
[2013/07/23 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’ve used it myself, but only to be outrageous. Most totalitarian states started with gun control…
[2013/07/23 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I know the addictiveness of WoW, though I’ve been off it for a long time.
[2013/07/23 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Lost my account info, even. 😦
[2013/07/23 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, and you’ve quit how many times? lol.
[2013/07/23 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: I do know that the games that have a line out of the door at midnight of release date are mostly shooter and war games of sorts.
[2013/07/23 16:03]  Adur Gaelyth: I tried WoW but I quit after i saw how ugly the avatars looked
[2013/07/23 16:03]  Second Life: seonaid McLean is offline.
[2013/07/23 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: not really 😛
[2013/07/23 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha Adur
[2013/07/23 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, a beautiful avatar is a really good thing. Not that I’m bragging, or anything…
[2013/07/23 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: If my theory of button mashing and poor AI are valid, would we likely see less violence in videogames as new control schemes and better computing power come along?
[2013/07/23 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, no, we’d see more underground games
[2013/07/23 16:03]  Adur Gaelyth: I’m more into the dressing competition Art :9
[2013/07/23 16:04]  Adur Gaelyth: lol
[2013/07/23 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: what about the idea that the occulus rift will herald a new era in which exploration is the main purpose?
[2013/07/23 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me is up for a dressing competition
[2013/07/23 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, Jamie would win that. She is the QUEEN of dressing up.
[2013/07/23 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: exploration of the guts of your enemy as you slice him in two
[2013/07/23 16:04]  Jamie Marlin: I have always wondered if the rush of sales for those games is because violent games are more popular, or because the developed market is for people who like violent games
[2013/07/23 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that will last about as long as exploration being a theme in Star Trek, as opposed to war
[2013/07/23 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: They actually have that game, Ivy! Surgeon simulator.
[2013/07/23 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, Jamie, excellent question. I hadn’t thought of that
[2013/07/23 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve seen it! 😀
[2013/07/23 16:05]  Adur Gaelyth: Btw you look impressive Ivy ツ
[2013/07/23 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: actually I think I’ve played it even
[2013/07/23 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: and laughed my ass off
[2013/07/23 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: “oh shit the lung fell to the floor”
[2013/07/23 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Violent games definitely are popular. Halo, Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty are massively popular franchises.
[2013/07/23 16:06]  Jamie Marlin: Yes…. agree.
[2013/07/23 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: so is Minecraft
[2013/07/23 16:06]  Jamie Marlin: BUT – so is…
[2013/07/23 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: which kind of has violence in it too, now
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Jamie Marlin: Mincraft – you mbeat me to it!
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Jamie Marlin: Mincraft – you mbeat me to it!
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Second Life: Tama Ahn is online.
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Jamie Marlin: Both of my boys (16 and 12) play minecraft often
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmxFtCi6aKI
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: there
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: But the “casual games” are a huge part of the industry. Angry Birds, etc.
[2013/07/23 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: PROOF
[2013/07/23 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: MINECRAFT IS VIOLENT
[2013/07/23 16:08]  Jamie Marlin: and yes, they sometimes build things just to blow them up…. but mostly they build things because it is fun
[2013/07/23 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK here is a list of the biggest game releases in history: All of them violent: Call of Duty Black Ops, Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2, Grand Theft Auto 4, Halo Reach, Halo 3, Halo 2, Starcraft 2 Wings of Liberty and World of Warcraft The Burning Crusade. Point made… heh
[2013/07/23 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: The big gaming scene today is smart phones and tablets, and cheap little quicky games for them.
[2013/07/23 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Zo.
[2013/07/23 16:08]  Jamie Marlin: Artcrash – that proves that the current market likes violent games
[2013/07/23 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: No it doesn’t. 😛
[2013/07/23 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, that is what we are talking about, right?
[2013/07/23 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: if minecraft with it’s sword fighting isn’t violent, then no game is
[2013/07/23 16:09]  Jamie Marlin: But the current market is only a small piece of the computer-using public
[2013/07/23 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me wonders if its relevant that she just bought a holster for her 7 1/2 in .44 Magnum that allows her to conceal it perfectly
[2013/07/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Does that list refer to videogames in general or just console games? Cuz like Zo keeps hinting, tablet and mobile phone games may not be so violent.
[2013/07/23 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Not what I’d choose for a concealment piece, Rhi.
[2013/07/23 16:10]  Jamie Marlin: so… if the rest of us aren’t buying those games, maybe it is because they aren’t making the games we want to buy?
[2013/07/23 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well the question we are asking today is why is violence the desired form of gaming for a great at very least plurality of users?
[2013/07/23 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, it won’t replace my cute little .357 magnum, but it would take out a Mall Shooter or a bear, in case I run into either of them
[2013/07/23 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Halo 3 8.1 million[31]
[2013/07/23 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Wii Sports 81.99 million[76][b]
[2013/07/23 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: The big-budget “blockbuster” games tend to be violent. They also tend to be formulaic, because no company wants to risk that kind of money on an unproven game.
[2013/07/23 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: But what about Portal?
[2013/07/23 16:11]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂 LOVE portal!
[2013/07/23 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I played that so, sweety!
[2013/07/23 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s not… exactly violent. Discounting all the ways you can get yourself killed, I mean.
[2013/07/23 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: too
[2013/07/23 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I go stuck on one level. Still stuck on it to this day.
[2013/07/23 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, well that’s the market at work; you find a formula that allows you to mass produce your product–whether an automobile or a video game
[2013/07/23 16:12]  Jamie Marlin: I liked it because it was a challenge, and it made me laugh
[2013/07/23 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Good enough reasons, Jamie
[2013/07/23 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: getting yourself killed isn’t violence
[2013/07/23 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: unless you consider, say, lava to be a violent agent
[2013/07/23 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, depends. But it reminds me of a cartoon I saw. The draft board asked to a CO, “But do you have a conscientious objection to being killed.” lol
[2013/07/23 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: what you said reminds me of Bad Piggies, Zo. You have to build vehicles that can get across obstacle courses. That is not violent. But what you build often goes whirling to destruction so…is that?
[2013/07/23 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: or… gravity
[2013/07/23 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: GRAVITY MERCILESSLY ATTACKED ME IN GAME
[2013/07/23 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: WITH PLANET EARTH
[2013/07/23 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/israeli_mall.jpg
[2013/07/23 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: If you look at the profit of some of these game companies it boggles the mind. WoW has 8 million subscribers who pay $15 a month. That is over a billion dollars a year for one game.
[2013/07/23 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
[2013/07/23 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: well, yes, they have religion there 😀
[2013/07/23 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah people should not be afraid of heights they should be afraid of the ground (help help I am being supressed!) that is what kills you.
[2013/07/23 16:14]  Second Life: Xa Marlin is online.
[2013/07/23 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, if you figure out a successful subscription offer, you can get rich very quickly. A friend of mine did that, taught it to his son, who at first felt guilty, as it felt like stealing. Soon got over it–right about the time he bought his first Harley Davidson
[2013/07/23 16:15]  Jamie Marlin: I offered this up earlier, without expressing myself very well. At one time, the table-top gaming market was all board games based around conflict. But in the last 10 years or so… the biggest sellers have been non-conflict based games. I believe it is because they reach a wider audience
[2013/07/23 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: I saw someone the other day who said on Plurk that they learned all of their physics from Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote. haha
[2013/07/23 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: now that was some violence, Art!
[2013/07/23 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Jamie could those games translate to videogames? I understand MMORPGS originated from tabletop games?
[2013/07/23 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: But Jamie how does what you just said square with the list of best selling games I just showed above, all of which are violent?
[2013/07/23 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: table top games were bashed for it’s devil worshiping rather than violence (well, violence too)
[2013/07/23 16:16]  Jamie Marlin: Quite a few of them involve trading rather than attacking
[2013/07/23 16:16]  Second Life: Naring’nari (joey.aboma) is online.
[2013/07/23 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes! Wider audience. That’s what I meant. Violent games are a dependable way to reach a certain dependable subset of the market. But they don’t have as broad appeal, really.
[2013/07/23 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: she meant tabletop games, Art, not videogames. YOu know the games you play with many sided dice?
[2013/07/23 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me rolls d20
[2013/07/23 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: taht is what you meant, right, sis?
[2013/07/23 16:17]  Jamie Marlin: (I am thinking ‘Settlers of Catan…. which even my mom and dad loved. And they never played anything but cards
[2013/07/23 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: *that. grrr!
[2013/07/23 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: oh reality! haha I don’t know much about that!
[2013/07/23 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: 4 :<
[2013/07/23 16:18]  Second Life: Corin Exin (corin.clary) is online.
[2013/07/23 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well if you want to count market share it is all about Candy Crush and Words with Friends. But those only make money through advertisements.
[2013/07/23 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: I want to do a little exercise in democracy (yes, me!), who here thinks Minecraft is a violent game: say “aye”
[2013/07/23 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Facebook never stops trying to sell me Candy Crush.
[2013/07/23 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Aye have no idea! haha
[2013/07/23 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Depends what you mean by violence.
[2013/07/23 16:19]  Adur Gaelyth: I don’t know Minecraft either
[2013/07/23 16:19]  Jamie Marlin: 🙂 Well…. if we count economic success… then we have to ignore table-top games. I have friends in the business and ALL of them are broke
[2013/07/23 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Angry Birds is all about violence btw….
[2013/07/23 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: okay
[2013/07/23 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: who thinks Angry Birds is a violent game, say aye
[2013/07/23 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: aye
[2013/07/23 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: AYE!
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: art and I, then.
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2013/07/23 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve never played it.
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Jamie Marlin: Minecraft is more about building than anything else. It is almost second-life-ish. Without the shopping
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: reductio ad absurdum at it’s best
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Second Life: Sylfie Del Vanima (sylfie.minogue) is online.
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: No, Everybody knows my opinion and Art’s are always best.
[2013/07/23 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: All I know is that they’re birds and they’re “angry”, so I guess maybe that implies violence!
[2013/07/23 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: I agree that minecraft is mostly about building things
[2013/07/23 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Do they try to peck you?
[2013/07/23 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: especially on creative mode
[2013/07/23 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: you throw angry birds to kill pigs, often killing the birds themselves
[2013/07/23 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: The birds are used as cannon balls to be flung at buildings erected by green pigs.
[2013/07/23 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: not only bodily harm, but also property harm!
[2013/07/23 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: or damage*
[2013/07/23 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Dead Space. Now there is a violent videogame:)
[2013/07/23 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: oh…Farmville. That is/ was very popular and nonviolent.
[2013/07/23 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” A character in Asimov. “Carthago delenda est.” Cato, right before Rome totally obliterated Carthage and dramatically increased their trade by wiping out their competition
[2013/07/23 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m really wondering when a game that involves one agent killing another agent (and minecraft is such a game) becomes a “violent game”
[2013/07/23 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: do you have to have 1 death per minute?
[2013/07/23 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: or is 1 death per hour enough?
[2013/07/23 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess when the target is recognizably human and spills blood?
[2013/07/23 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: then WoW doesn’t have any violence in it
[2013/07/23 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Getting back to the original question of why violence appeals to many in the game world. I think it involves drama and excitement and risk. So people get a ‘rush’ out of risking their characters and surviving. So my guess is body based emotions is why…..
[2013/07/23 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Makes sense to me, Art.
[2013/07/23 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://zobeid.zapto.org/firearms/ashly_rfb_0143.jpg
[2013/07/23 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: very similar emotions you can get while playing soccer
[2013/07/23 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: or so I am told!
[2013/07/23 16:25]  Jamie Marlin: I wonder… I can play fairly conflict-oriented games when I am playing against a computer… but I am completely,entirely uncomfortable with that same sort of game when it is multi-player and I am fighting a person. So maybe part of the attraction for these games is the ability to be violent with the knowledge that nobody ELSE is going to get hurt?
[2013/07/23 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: not even that, you can get such emotions when only watching a soccer game, which makes for a whole industry of it’s own
[2013/07/23 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: I attribute gun fetishes to a need to feel powerful and in control.
[2013/07/23 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Jamie, I think that’s a lot of it.
[2013/07/23 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: I never got used to the concept of online PvP. It makes me very anxious.
[2013/07/23 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, that is true. And who needs to feel powerful in today’s world? No one is trying to attack you and our society is completely orderly.
[2013/07/23 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: It just gives you better oponents. Why wait for AI to catch up when you can operate as part of a team taking on another team?
[2013/07/23 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: One of my friends who used to be a WoW addict. Said that the only thing he really wanted to do was PVP action…. He liked the excitement and the intellectual challenge as well as the reaction challenge.
[2013/07/23 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: online PvP often includes name-calling and raging on chats, which *is* violence
[2013/07/23 16:27]  Jamie Marlin: Me too. Very much so…. and it is not just because I am awful at that sort of game and get killed instantly
[2013/07/23 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, my experience is much like Jamie’s.
[2013/07/23 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I would gun them down for so much as harming a hair on your head, sweety!
[2013/07/23 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: unlike butchering an npc with an axe, even if there is blood
[2013/07/23 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: No wait. It’s mainly because I *am* awful and get killed instantly! 😛
[2013/07/23 16:28]  Jamie Marlin: ArtCrash – I know that some people love it…. but it really makes me uncomfortable
[2013/07/23 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Twin-uzi justice!
[2013/07/23 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: which is just that – butchering of a non-person
[2013/07/23 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: you may very well commit violence against a bottle by throwing it on the ground
[2013/07/23 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, these games are not for immersives–You’ve just killed me! No, I killed your avatar, silly.
[2013/07/23 16:29]  Jamie Marlin: Zobeid – I think I am awful at it because the situation is so uncomfortable for me
[2013/07/23 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: But even in games when you are shooting ‘things’, YOU are at risk and the game ends when you are killed. It is the adrenaline that drives this stuff, no?
[2013/07/23 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I have a conflict in games like that…. I’m thinking back to my EQ experience here.
[2013/07/23 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: yes, also it’s adrenaline that drives extreme sports, point is?
[2013/07/23 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: My time is almost up so…final comments.
[2013/07/23 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: offroad bikes = violence?
[2013/07/23 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, adrenalin and endorphins.
[2013/07/23 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: The times when I got in trouble were ultimately the most memorable.
[2013/07/23 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think offroad bikers are very violent. They destroy the landscape and take great pleasure in doing so.
[2013/07/23 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: hahaha 😀
[2013/07/23 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Especially when I got in trouble with other players. Not necessarily fun when it was happening, but they were the best *experiences*.
[2013/07/23 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Kk my time is up!
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