Thinkers June 10 2013: SL ten years from now

 june 18 2013 thinkers_001
[2013/06/18 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: so,,,welcome to thinkers!
[2013/06/18 15:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anyone over 3 years here is an oldbie, I’m thinking. Three years in SL is like dog years , multiply by some factor or other.
[2013/06/18 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha! So all the reading I did on the announced topic is now wasted! Hah!
[2013/06/18 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my, Art. According to that I’m probably a walking mummy then, and Zo is just ashes in an urn.
[2013/06/18 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Somehow Sl has survived to be 10 year’s old. But what will online worlds be like 10 years from now?
[2013/06/18 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m less than a week away from 9 years in SL.
[2013/06/18 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually I’m over that if you count my previous av that I lost the password to. :/
[2013/06/18 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: (congrats Zo, we should celebrate)
[2013/06/18 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we should indeed!
[2013/06/18 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Zo!
[2013/06/18 15:33]  Second Life: Zel Rai (zel.ming) is online.
[2013/06/18 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: what sort of a primary does that?
[2013/06/18 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think online worlds will be fully immersive with headsets and therefore more immersive. And Yes I think SL will still be here.
[2013/06/18 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that’s likely, too, Art
[2013/06/18 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that mesh will push out a lot of the low end creativity part of sl., unfortunately.
[2013/06/18 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if SL loses 10% of its landmass per year, it takes a decade to disappear hehe
[2013/06/18 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: do you think Sl would need to be redesigned? Would people notice doors are too big or small if we were using something like VR headsets?
[2013/06/18 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… I’m not so sure, Art. There is a HUGE thing that LL will do
[2013/06/18 15:35]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is offline.
[2013/06/18 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good point Extie and I think they would.
[2013/06/18 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: mesh actually made me consider making stuff in SL
[2013/06/18 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Surely we’re used to everything in SL being made to “wonky scale” by now. :/
[2013/06/18 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They will, yes, Extie. For example, I have changed the camera settings to make things look more “Normal”. Now all doors seem huge already, and the ceilings impossibly far off!
[2013/06/18 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: This seems to be the case with a lot of VR environments. People don the Rift and find everything is out of proportion.
[2013/06/18 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have heard our great leader talk about how individual creativity is THE most important thing about SL.
[2013/06/18 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: I would say collaborative creativity is.
[2013/06/18 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL *could* turn the building tools into mesh building tools pretty easily… if they wished
[2013/06/18 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: let me edit that for you: individual creativity is the most important thing.
[2013/06/18 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t believe in collaborative creativity. I’ve been on too many collaborative projects that went to hell.
[2013/06/18 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Ivy. Subtle!
[2013/06/18 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, as everything in life, Art, it all depends on how things are managed 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: So would you expect your three year old to be able to do some decent building in SL 10 years from now?
[2013/06/18 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Collaboration only works if there is a structure and a vision from someone.
[2013/06/18 15:37]  Second Life: ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath) is offline.
[2013/06/18 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: read: dictatorship
[2013/06/18 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😀
[2013/06/18 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Strangely enough, being part of a 9-years-old community which is all about collaborative building (and still hasn’t disappeared), I would say, Art, that it really depends a *lot* on the group and how it’s managed
[2013/06/18 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: tell the termites that.
[2013/06/18 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Actually Ivy, yes.
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me suggests democracy instead
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It also works, albeit slower
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: termites do not engage in creative endeavors.
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: SL does have some limitations that irk me, but VR doesn’t exactly address them.
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: slower, with more drama, and over budget.
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: VR is another thing that might be nice but wasn’t what I ordered — like voice.
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: what does address them?
[2013/06/18 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, but projects are more long-lived
[2013/06/18 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Take LEA art sims for example. Each sim is given to an individual artist to build something. When they have group builds there, they usually quite frankly… suck… heh
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Surely you did order VR?
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Voice was sort of a “who ordered this?” thing.
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Artists, heh. They definitely need management 😀
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Zo!
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: tell me about it, building metro in Warsaw under democratic rules seems to take forever, that’s how long lived it is.
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: No, I didn’t order VR. It might be nice, but it wouldn’t have been high on my priority list.
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: How can you be interested in online worlds and not be interested in VR? One is the perfect partner of the other, no?
[2013/06/18 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: yes hehe — that’s the bad side of democracy, everything takes time
[2013/06/18 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Voice was ordered by people who want to have sex with more realism…. heh
[2013/06/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hah! Yes 😀
[2013/06/18 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: That makes no sense.
[2013/06/18 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, SL is not nearly the most immersive virtual world I’ve been in, sans VR. So if it’s falling short on immersiveness even by non-VR standards, how is adding VR the answer?
[2013/06/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, if you define “VR” as “virtual worlds with a headset”…
[2013/06/18 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: moaning in voice is more effective than text moaning.
[2013/06/18 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/06/18 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me moans
[2013/06/18 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: How does saying ‘oo yeah mmmm like that’ into a microphone beat the lyrical descriptions of text-sex?
[2013/06/18 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can confirm that moaning on voice works
[2013/06/18 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: really, really well
[2013/06/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I won’t ask you how you know that so well, Ivy dear 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: why, empiric knowledge
[2013/06/18 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: FOR SCIENCE
[2013/06/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Science FTW!
[2013/06/18 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me punches air
[2013/06/18 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😀
[2013/06/18 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: WTG Ivy!
[2013/06/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me, I have to keep up on Girl Genius…
[2013/06/18 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: You mean me?
[2013/06/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha 😀
[2013/06/18 15:42]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2013/06/18 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me googles
[2013/06/18 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, Rift, mmh, interesting, sure, but it will be “a tool for the hard-core gamers”
[2013/06/18 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: But sex.. Do you think SL circa 2023 will facilitate better sex than what you can expect today?
[2013/06/18 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: My wish list for SL is more like… A viewer that doesn’t crash. A completely revamped inventory window. Improvements to LSL, to make it more flexible and capable (particularly for, but not limited to, in-world game creation)…..
[2013/06/18 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Running SL on Google Glasses will be a bit more accessible for the mainstream, I think
[2013/06/18 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: The viewers are more stable than they used to be by a LONG shot. and so are the sims.
[2013/06/18 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I’d be happy if LL would just implement those nice OpenSim LSL functions… ㋡
[2013/06/18 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: What functions?
[2013/06/18 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: The viewers are more stable than they used to be, but they’re still by *far* the least stable programs I run on my computer.
[2013/06/18 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d be happy if LL implemented a programming language to use in SL
[2013/06/18 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree. The only time SL crashes for me is when my primary’s modem looses its connection.
[2013/06/18 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: half a gazillion of them, actually, but I had the NPC functions in mind
[2013/06/18 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s *rare* for anything else on my Mac to lock up or crash.
[2013/06/18 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, Ivy, LL lost the main guy who was developing alternatives to LSL…
[2013/06/18 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: you haven’t used Charles, Zo
[2013/06/18 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: ??
[2013/06/18 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What’s CHarles?
[2013/06/18 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: http debugging proxy
[2013/06/18 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. No wonder it crashes 😉
[2013/06/18 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: have to restart it every 20 minutes at work, fun tool
[2013/06/18 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: They lost him? Or they fired him?
[2013/06/18 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: We still can’t even store properties on objects with LSL, or write to notecards, etc.
[2013/06/18 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, correct, they fired Babbage
[2013/06/18 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: (( it’s written in Java ))
[2013/06/18 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Those are severe limitations.
[2013/06/18 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that explains it all, Ivy!)
[2013/06/18 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Isn’t Java being shoved to the side these days?
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: btw I predict that by 2013 99% of my suggested topics for discussion will be greeted with ‘uhh did we do that already?’,
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: 2023 I mean
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, agreed. Zo, you should have fun one day writing scripts on OpenSim; all that is available, and so much more (including — yes — writing scripts in C#)
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Possibly!
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Though maybe my first date was correct!
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: /me knows not of this C#.
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d learn C# for SL
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is offline.
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: it can’t be worse than Objective C
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it’s actually marginally better
[2013/06/18 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: in fact, I doubt anything can be worse than Objective C
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: I like Objective C.
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not that I like either of them 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah.
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: (has half a mind to set a topic on ;the nature of consciousness’ just to hear the groans)
[2013/06/18 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: C+++++
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: “and those 20 lines make a container with 20 pixels padding”
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie —… next week!
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Although honestly, I don’t have much use for anything past C and Python most of the time.
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you’re talking 😀
[2013/06/18 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we are all a dream in the mind of…… I forgot.
[2013/06/18 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is lazy and likes PHP: a programming language for lazy people
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is online.
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think I’m a dream in my own mind.
[2013/06/18 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yay for lazy!
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: PHP is not that bad
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s great if you’re lazy AND sloppy 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SLoppy. Mmh.
[2013/06/18 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: PCP is bad
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: (sees no need to progress beyond 10 print “Extie rocks!” 20 goto 10 run)
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Unfortunately, there are some conflicts between immersiveness and convenience.
[2013/06/18 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BASIC would be appropriate for SL. Everything is basic here 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: OO now that is good. What conflicts?
[2013/06/18 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: But the hipsters say Rawks, not Rocks. So ERROR>
[2013/06/18 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Teleporting is a big one. It breaks your sense of place and space and geography.
[2013/06/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, it would depend on how awkward the haptic devices are
[2013/06/18 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not hip. I have nice hips but I am not hip.
[2013/06/18 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m two hips.
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: hip hip hooray.
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: you have to be gay to be a real hipster
[2013/06/18 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: /me has been to hipster school
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dang, that explains a lot 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Teleporting and landmarks make SL more like a 3D WWW than a 3D landscape.
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: being gay = you get in to every club in Berlin
[2013/06/18 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Being gay is so last week in hipster world.
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: – you can’t enter
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: – but I’m gay
[2013/06/18 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: – oh, okay then
[2013/06/18 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting, Ivy! 🙂 And that applies to lesbians too, or just male gays?
[2013/06/18 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: lesbians too
[2013/06/18 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not gay. Why limit yourself to one gender?
[2013/06/18 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: To be a true hipster, you must first despise all hipsters.
[2013/06/18 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Anyway, moving on…
[2013/06/18 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Be multigender! Join SL 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: hahaha, yup Art!
[2013/06/18 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: all the other hipsters are fake hipsters
[2013/06/18 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, like postmodernism then? To eb a true postmodernist you will need to despise all postmodernists too
[2013/06/18 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So are hipsters postmodernist? 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my. Now we’ve derailed the topic completely
[2013/06/18 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: /me is so un-hip, it’s a wonder her bums don’t fall off.
[2013/06/18 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2013/06/18 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, So back to the topic. Will LL reinvent another virtual world with different more up to date technology with the intent of migrating SL people to it?
[2013/06/18 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: nr 4 is great
[2013/06/18 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I have read a book explaining what postmodernism is so I can now tell you: I have no idea what postmodernism is.
[2013/06/18 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: – Downgeloaded – “Last night I downgeloaded some epic midget porn.”
[2013/06/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All I can think is that SL in 2023 will still be recognisable as the same platform it is today
[2013/06/18 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, good question, Art. That’s what Philip is doing, right?
[2013/06/18 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Well there is always Phil Rosedale’s new world.
[2013/06/18 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m not holding my breath, but if they can move more stuff to the viewer to reduce lag, it may actually be suitable for making games
[2013/06/18 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: How much can you patch the old networking tech to scale up concurrent avatar numbers though Gwyn?
[2013/06/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Intel showed a thousand avatars in a single sim, Art….
[2013/06/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that was a couple of years ago
[2013/06/18 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Intel did that with current SL?
[2013/06/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And not even in SL, but OpenSim, which is far from perfect
[2013/06/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No — OpenSim
[2013/06/18 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Only IBM ever had access to LL’s simulator code, I think
[2013/06/18 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: so how come LL does not just say ‘oh nice we shall use that tech, thanks’?
[2013/06/18 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I’d say, they were able to pull it off *because* OpenSim is not “perfect”
[2013/06/18 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: So Gwyn, you say massive crowds are possible with the SL platform?
[2013/06/18 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, good point, Ivy
[2013/06/18 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are certainly possible, Art
[2013/06/18 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Just from experience, I would say no.
[2013/06/18 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: the two codebases are completely different
[2013/06/18 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s my main problem with SL, it just tries to do too much stuff on the sim side
[2013/06/18 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: so we end up lagging, rubberbanding and slowing down in simplest activities
[2013/06/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be like saying that Microsoft should grab Apple’s code (Mac OS X is based on Darwin, which is a free and open-source Unix) and update WIndows 8 to make it different. It simply doesn’t work.
[2013/06/18 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Haven’t they started doing even more on the sim side? And claimed it will improve performance?
[2013/06/18 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: while for 95% applications almost all physics could be done on the client
[2013/06/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, to give LL some credit, they ARE doing that
[2013/06/18 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It will just take a few years 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: yes, baking, but that’s once-in-a-while task, and it saves bandwidth mostly
[2013/06/18 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: How much is Physics even necessary for Virtual World enjoyment?
[2013/06/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well avatars have to walk on the ground… 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: and stop on walls
[2013/06/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And collide with objects instead of going through them
[2013/06/18 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes. Stop on walls.
[2013/06/18 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: That happens in Open Sims that have no physics.
[2013/06/18 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: the problem is, if you want to have 1000 people in a sim now
[2013/06/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really? Hm. I would have to test that claim, Art 🙂
[2013/06/18 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: you are looking at one sim doing physics for 1000 avatars colliding with objects *and each other*
[2013/06/18 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Ivy!
[2013/06/18 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: I spent a lot of time in InWorldz before their physics was installed. It was virtually identical to SL experience.
[2013/06/18 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Is it really practical to have 1000 people in a sim? I mean, aside from all technical considerations.
[2013/06/18 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, with the Rift we are finding that a lot of videogames cause nausea because they violate the laws of physics. Like, in many cases your avatar moves at superhuman speeds and that is OK so long as you are only watching via a monitor but once it gets immersive your mind rebels and says ;noooo wrong!’/
[2013/06/18 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: it’s not about having or not having physics, it’s about on which end should it be calculated
[2013/06/18 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Didn’t they have the “default” physics engine on? Oh well, it’s irrelevant, Art — if there is no physics engine, then “something” will have to do the maths anyway
[2013/06/18 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: in general it’s a better idea to do things on the server, since then people can’t “cheat”
[2013/06/18 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: hmmmmm interesting
[2013/06/18 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Crowds would be nice in SL, Zo — for megaevents
[2013/06/18 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha! I remember some shooter games like that were in fashion for a while. Everyone is Speedy Gonzales. And I always get killed before I know what’s happening, because I’m not a 13-year-old pumped up on sugar and caffeine.
[2013/06/18 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Take events like The Arcade, they are so crowded that you can’t even enter the sim for weeks. This stifles the commerce that would happen otherwise.
[2013/06/18 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: A “megaevent” implies lots and lots of spectators, rather than actual participants. So it’s more a broadcast-type scenario, rather than actually interactive in the normal SL sense.
[2013/06/18 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree. It’s not really about having “1000 avatars in a sim”; but more like, “100 avatars WITHOUT LAG in the same region”.
[2013/06/18 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or, well, even 10 avatars without lag 😀
[2013/06/18 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s take this weeks big event SL10B. A LOT of people don’t attend because they believe it will only be a lagg fest.
[2013/06/18 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: so would you expect to get, say, hundreds of people per sim with no noticable effect on performance in SL circa 2023?
[2013/06/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s pretty much what I expect SL to be in 2023 — not much different conceptually, but an improvement overall in how resources (memory, network, bandwitdh… lag….) are used
[2013/06/18 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: If you could get hundreds of people in the same place with no lagg, you could have RL bands play becaue the economics would allow it.
[2013/06/18 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: The best way to appreciate the SL birthdays is to watch the youtube vids in which lag is somehow magicked away.
[2013/06/18 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If Rod Humble stays at LL for that long, Extie, I think it could be possible, yes
[2013/06/18 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: as far as LL end of SL goes – that’s all they can do
[2013/06/18 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: improve the tools
[2013/06/18 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, Extie. That’s a broadcast model.
[2013/06/18 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha Extie — no, these videos are just done by people logging in outside prime time with state-of-the-art hardware which will never drop below 50 FPS, no matter what 🙂
[2013/06/18 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: and really, I’d *love* to do some programming in SL, if it wasn’t such a pain!
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: SL in machinima looks like it is running on CryEngine or something.
[2013/06/18 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Will there be simple mesh tools for non technical residents in 2023 Gwyn?
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that turning the building tools into a full-fledged 3D construction tool would work
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Art
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see hmmm
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whem you assemble prims,
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and link them together,
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *when
[2013/06/18 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Assemble, then bake into a mesh?
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: you think there will be non technical *people* in 2023?
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they are magically turned into a mesh which is passed to Havok
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes Ivy, I think!)
[2013/06/18 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: If you could have some way of logging in as a phantom…. So you can watch, but you aren’t seen by others, and they don’t see you… That would be drastically more efficient.
[2013/06/18 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Why would you want to?
[2013/06/18 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, sadly enough, LL never realized the potential — why isn’t this mesh immediately accessible to the *user*?
[2013/06/18 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are privacy issues with that Zo
[2013/06/18 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see the privacy problem, if it’s a public event in a sim.
[2013/06/18 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: what do you mean with immediately accessible to the user?
[2013/06/18 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: It seems pointless to me. Sl is communication through shared experiences.
[2013/06/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: that it gets saved to the inventory as a fully baked mesh 🙂
[2013/06/18 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: You can hardly share by being invisible to all and sundry.
[2013/06/18 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well for events, maybe, but it opens the door to all sorts of voyeurism.
[2013/06/18 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: The people putting on the event — the performers/presenters — wouldn’t be invisible.
[2013/06/18 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me scratches head
[2013/06/18 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: it isn’t?
[2013/06/18 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can turn avatars selectively off… on some vieweres at least
[2013/06/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it works only for you, though)
[2013/06/18 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (you will still be visible to others…. unless they turn you off too)
[2013/06/18 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: I find people on my sim sometimes who are able to not be visible to me, but I see their green dot on the minimap.
[2013/06/18 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: one thing that should be simple to do that I’d like are predefined “magical” texture UUIDs for avatar mesh head/top/bottom
[2013/06/18 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: so you can make a custom body mesh with UV matching the SL body textures
[2013/06/18 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy, what I mean is the following…. linked groups of prims, for the purpose of the asset server, are individual prims, grouped together, but still individual prims. But for the sake of Havok, it gets converted into a mesh. My idea, if I were a TPV developer, would be to retrieve that mesh and save it as a COLLADA file.
[2013/06/18 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: You could create a login mode where your avatar is visible, but it’s only a simple cube? Or even a particle?
[2013/06/18 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: and have it compatible with all the vanilla skins and clothing
[2013/06/18 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Whatever happened to the Mesh Deformer? They decided to say forget it?
[2013/06/18 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo, how about automatic configuring to suit the sim’s abilities?
[2013/06/18 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: ah, okay!
[2013/06/18 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Something like that might be possible.
[2013/06/18 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: I think Mesh deformer broke too many things
[2013/06/18 16:09]  Second Life: Elnyp Dryke is offline.
[2013/06/18 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I would still prefer to be me. I did not invest all this effort into looking this good to manifest in a crowded sim as a block.
[2013/06/18 16:10]  Second Life: Botgirl Questi is offline.
[2013/06/18 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In that scenario, SL would be simply competing with other 3D tools — just working on prims. Of course, we would need a lot of new thingies — subtractive prim sets, alignmemt tools, mirroring tools, and so forth. But these are all relatively easy to do.
[2013/06/18 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Although I tend to manifest in busy sims a smoke so….
[2013/06/18 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: *as
[2013/06/18 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I canna break the laws of physics, Cap’n Extie!
[2013/06/18 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: what I find rather amusing
[2013/06/18 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: yes…
[2013/06/18 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: is?
[2013/06/18 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: is that from fear of learning a “complex” tool for making mesh, people would rather see SL get a tool for making mesh, which, out of necessity, has to be complex
[2013/06/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well it’s complex already, Ivy, even for prims
[2013/06/18 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, as said, *internally* they are already being converted to mesh.
[2013/06/18 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All that LL needs to do is to give access to that mesh.
[2013/06/18 16:13]  Second Life: Android Neox is online.
[2013/06/18 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it wouldn’t be MORE complex. It would be “as complex as it is now”, which, agreed, is already pretty complex
[2013/06/18 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: you couldn’t really do anything you can’t do now, though?
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: aside from maybe saving some PE
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You could save…. yes lol
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s what I meant, yes
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: well
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is a difference
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you have, say, 20 cubes
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And not only that, it would make some calculations easier
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: in a linkset
[2013/06/18 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can have a different texture on each side
[2013/06/18 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can’t do that in mesh
[2013/06/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not in LL’s implementation, no 😛
[2013/06/18 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have to come to terms with the fact that learning a mesh making tool is not trivial, and therefore requires a high level of committment. MOST people will not do it. Simple building tools like are in SL now are needed for the majority of people in order to feed their desire for creativity.
[2013/06/18 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you could stitch & bake individual textures together and save the result
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s what I meant, Art
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not suggesting to integrate Blender or Maya in SL 😛
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: This has been one of my biggest obstacles in SL, actually.
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: what, the learning curve?
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But just use what it already has — a prim-based construction tool, whoch assembles prims into linksets
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *which
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: I loved building stuff on the MUCK because it was easy — everything was text, all I had to do was write — and it was free, there was no marketplace and no money.
[2013/06/18 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All that is missing is saving the linkset to a mesh
[2013/06/18 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve never built anything of much consequence in SL. It seems like way too much work and time required.
[2013/06/18 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me always wondered why Zo isn’t having more fun on OpenSim 🙂
[2013/06/18 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: if making stuff was easy people like me wouldn’t have a job
[2013/06/18 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: :p
[2013/06/18 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha ivy
[2013/06/18 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Minecraft is dead easy to get creative with. But, I guess, ultimatly more restrictive than SL.
[2013/06/18 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Every time I look at OpenSim it’s the same.
[2013/06/18 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: also learning a modeling program while not trivial is also not rocket surgery
[2013/06/18 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I have to agree with Art. The fun of SL is that it LOOKS easy to build things, and that surely makes a lot of people getting an interest in it, at least for a while… until they understand that skill and talent is needed to make things look GOOD.
[2013/06/18 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Is looking a fair way to judge?
[2013/06/18 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Believe it or not, and we here are tech people to some degree, most people are incapable of being in SL and having a good experience because of the learning curve needed. Not only are they unwilling to learn, but some are incapable because of short attention span.
[2013/06/18 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you can learn building in SL, you *can* learn Blender
[2013/06/18 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: that’s the result of over 6 years of free content and no marketplace — no incentive for doing a lot of things 😉 heh heh
[2013/06/18 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, it’s tough to even learn to *use* SL, to say nothing of building here.
[2013/06/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed!
[2013/06/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, one thing is “learn to build”
[2013/06/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other is “having the talent to make things that look good”
[2013/06/18 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Building a simple chair or building is very rewarding for a lot of SLers. It makes them stay.
[2013/06/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Different things!
[2013/06/18 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I think “free” and “no marketplace” is not the problem with OpenSim, nearly as much as “no people”.
[2013/06/18 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both are connected, Zo 😀
[2013/06/18 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t believe it.
[2013/06/18 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No people = no market = no incentive to do a lot of creative things = no content = no people 🙂
[2013/06/18 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Concurrency in InWorldz is still only about 250 to 300, which is OK, but makes a lot of things not possible there.
[2013/06/18 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn summed it up nicely.
[2013/06/18 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: people is the best resource you can have
[2013/06/18 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder what made me stay? I think it was playing chess with a furry and then, having lost, wandered off to discover a group burning an effigy of Kenny from southpark while chanting ‘all hail the mighty shamalamadingdong’. I just knew that SL had limitless capacity to entertain at that point.
[2013/06/18 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, and what lots of people gives you is more of a chance to meet those with your own interests.
[2013/06/18 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: a lot of successful startups on the web focus not on monetization but just getting as many users as possible
[2013/06/18 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie — love that description
[2013/06/18 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s how Facebook got where it is, that’s how Soundcloud is getting there
[2013/06/18 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: I am still aching for somebody to create that truly cooperative environment…. It’s an experiment that should be done.
[2013/06/18 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t get me started on that, Ivy… 😉
[2013/06/18 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Of course these days my biggest incentive is my friends.
[2013/06/18 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I. Shall. Resist. To. Comment.
[2013/06/18 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I’m not going to complain, I take part in one such startup 😀
[2013/06/18 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: Facebook went viral because people wanted to date each other, originally! haha
[2013/06/18 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: milking investors with no business model = best
[2013/06/18 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: I still can’t understand why ANYONE would want to be on Instagram. But that is just me apparently.
[2013/06/18 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2013/06/18 16:23]  Second Life: Sorcs Nolan is offline.
[2013/06/18 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good luck for you, Ivy, and all i can wish is: bleed those investors dry, suck all their money, enjoy it while it lasts to the utmost, and then move quickly on to the next group of suckers…. I mean investors.
[2013/06/18 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: what is it?
[2013/06/18 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s a secret!
[2013/06/18 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: the plan is to grow, then sell it and move on 😀
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good! That’s the way to do it!
[2013/06/18 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Instagram is the HUGE player in the world of photos shared from your smartphone. And it is frankly, lame.
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: (anyone who asks you ‘can you keep a secret’ cannot keep a secret)
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: My most formative experience in virtual worlds was SPR MUCK, and I saw how it *exploded* in size and popularity for one basic reason: anybody could build there for free, with no limits.
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: whether something is good or not is irrelevant, it only has to be popular
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: It was so successful that it bogged down their servers and became hard to manage — but that’s a good problem to have.
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, when you say “exploded”, the question is — how many people were there? 🙂
[2013/06/18 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: and that’s how we got HTML
[2013/06/18 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m also amazed at how many people are into MineCraft. It is so incredibly limited. But people love how basic it is, I guess…
[2013/06/18 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: I was never an admin, so I never knew how many characters were in the database.
[2013/06/18 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha! I happen to disagree, Ivy, HTML just was, well, lucky — simple enough to implement, and a few thousands of geeks that were fascinated at how much you could do with a handful of lines of code and just 4 commands….
[2013/06/18 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: It is only limited to the extent that LEGOS is liimited.
[2013/06/18 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: <table><tr><td><table><tr><td><table><tr><td>
[2013/06/18 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: add in some bgcolor etc.
[2013/06/18 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: On creative mode Minecraft is like a magic legos set where you never run out of blocks.
[2013/06/18 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: syntax error, missing closing tag
[2013/06/18 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: what I mean is the following. Perhaps for all of us, having 34 million registered accounts, a million of which logging in regularly, and 50-60,000 simultaneously logged in, is really not much — compared to, say, Facebook
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: missing ellipsis rather
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: well, maybe you do eventually given that there is finite processing power and memory…
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (touché, Ivy!)
[2013/06/18 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: I know HTML 3 like the back of my hand, but know nothing of HTML 5. And I don’t want to learn it either…. heh
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: HTML 5 is *simpler* than anything in the past
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, the actual HTML part of HTML 5
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😛
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: three minutes left people!!
[2013/06/18 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, well, I’ve been to some forums with 10,000 users, 1% of which log in regularly, and it’s INCREDIBLY BUSY.
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It seems MASSIVE
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: doctype of html 4:
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC “-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN” “”&gt;
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think the numbers matter, the percentages matter.
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: doctype of html 5:
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: <!DOCTYPE html>
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, a OpenSim grid operator claiming 10,000 users with 100 people logged in… *yawn*. “It’s empty!”
[2013/06/18 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Apparently quality doesn’t matter anymore either.
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: SPR was like that, vast landscape mostly empty.
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: why do you say that?
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: But there were gathering spots.
[2013/06/18 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s more the perceptions people have of the environment, Zo, and the expectations we have
[2013/06/18 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For instance, here in SL we expect something out of the cyberpunk novels: sims with millions of users
[2013/06/18 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we don’t see that, well… we feel somehow cheated
[2013/06/18 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: But you go on OpenSim and there’s 100 people logged in… Do you know how many there are? Do you know who they are? Do you know how to find where they are gathered?
[2013/06/18 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: In the MUCK we had commands for that sort of thing.
[2013/06/18 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the millions of users are actually here! They just don’t manifest themselves in the way we expected!
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: but we have scripted BDSM toys instead
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhh yes´
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good point, Zo
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So perhaps SL in 2023 will have good tools for that
[2013/06/18 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: INstagram is an example of why quality doesn’t matter. They crop your pic square and display it at a small size and don’t allow cataloging. etc. etc. but it is the fastest growing social network out there.
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m frustrated by a lot of the things that we had simple commands for on the MUCK that we can’t do here.
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK so final comments: Will SL be here in 10 year’s time?
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: probably
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: (I hope so)
[2013/06/18 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For example, all social networking tools are keen to find your friends for you. That gives you some confidence that “you’re not alone in an empty space”
[2013/06/18 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: I confidently say YES
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: we just need more / better tools
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Yay for Art’s confidence!
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it will be around by 2023. I’m not so sure about 2033 though 🙂
[2013/06/18 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: who hoooooo!
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: people will find a use for a tool if you give it to them
[2013/06/18 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Call me Ms positive! Happy bunnys for all!
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *some* people will, Ivy, but most won’t 🙂
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: When was the last time Bryce was online? “laston bryce” Oh wait, that doesn’t work here. 😛
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: hey 2030 is the Singularity or so Vinge forecasts.
[2013/06/18 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: (I’m still waiting for them to get the “nexton” command to work on the MUCK, tho!)
[2013/06/18 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw. And we USED to have that command in SL, Zo. You could know when people last logged in. But it was seen as a privacy issue, so LL removed it
[2013/06/18 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
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1 Response to Thinkers June 10 2013: SL ten years from now

  1. Pingback: Second Life’s Tenth Birthday | Gwyn's Home

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