THINKERS MAY 07 2013: LOSING IN AN OPEN SOCIETY

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2013/05/07 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: When I hear that song I think of the Film Apocalypse Now.
[2013/05/07 15:32]  Be (be.ewing): I have a great comeback to that but since I am total quiet mode I won’t say what
[2013/05/07 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2013/05/07 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: If you compete in a free, fair, open, merit-based society and lose, what does that make you?
[2013/05/07 15:32]  Be (be.ewing): a winner
[2013/05/07 15:33]  Be (be.ewing): all is frame of reference
[2013/05/07 15:33]  Alexi Flux: average?
[2013/05/07 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Who would know? There is not now nor will there ever be such a society.
[2013/05/07 15:33]  Sorcs Nolan: you’d be with a majority
[2013/05/07 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: and why is that?
[2013/05/07 15:33]  Second Life: luisa (luisa.bourgoin) is online.
[2013/05/07 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Power doesn’t like merit. Power likes power.
[2013/05/07 15:33]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/05/07 15:34]  Sorcs Nolan: then again, define “lose”?
[2013/05/07 15:34]  Be (be.ewing): Psychopaths do Power
[2013/05/07 15:34]  Cryptic Hak: The question is rather open ended.
[2013/05/07 15:34]  Cryptic Hak: “what does that make you?”
[2013/05/07 15:34]  Be (be.ewing): well I never set myself up to lose
[2013/05/07 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok..how should lose be defined in this context?
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Be (be.ewing): I do not
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Cryptic Hak: it makes you someone who failed in a merit-based society. And the next time you try at something, you might succeed, yet you have not changed.
[2013/05/07 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: If merit did actually function, then value would have to be determined as reward. If it was merit, then any work at all would merit some reward.
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I’m not clear on what we mean by losing here. Everybody has failures from time to time.
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Be (be.ewing): yes — and it is how we learn
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: and what can you blame those errors on?
[2013/05/07 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ow
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha sorry Art!
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh hello Gwyn!
[2013/05/07 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: amd hiya all
[2013/05/07 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: mom! Gwyn stepped on my toe!
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Cryptic Hak: Depends on what the errors are.
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I’m wearing stilettos!
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: There has to be tolerance for failure. If everyone is deathly afraid of failing, then nobody takes any chances, and there is no progress.
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn IS the Momma avvie of SL!
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … whatever that means…
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shrugs*
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Nice dress Gwyn:)
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Cryptic Hak: To me, it is more interesting to analyze why such a question would even be asked.
[2013/05/07 15:36]  Be (be.ewing): 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Extie 😀
[2013/05/07 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Because, Cryptic, freedom is a scary thing. Not many people really want it.
[2013/05/07 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the idea of ‘merit’ depends on the idea of ‘value’. I don’t think there is a way to decide ‘value’.
[2013/05/07 15:37]  Be (be.ewing): I do
[2013/05/07 15:37]  Be (be.ewing): I love freedom
[2013/05/07 15:37]  Second Life: Ivy Sunkiller is offline.
[2013/05/07 15:37]  Cryptic Hak: Okay, and can you explain how that statement relates to failure in a merit-based society, Extropia ?
[2013/05/07 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Between the known Hell of constraints, and the unknown heaven of freedom, I pick what is more comfortable: the known over the unknown” — One Of My teachers.
[2013/05/07 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Value can’t be equal among all people due to the fact that value is different for different people.
[2013/05/07 15:38]  Cryptic Hak: Value is relative. There is no value.
[2013/05/07 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is my point
[2013/05/07 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: about merit
[2013/05/07 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Art, but some ‘values’ are relatively independent (pun intended!)
[2013/05/07 15:38]  Cryptic Hak: right, I just realized that 😀
[2013/05/07 15:38]  Cryptic Hak: /me smacks himself for skimming chat
[2013/05/07 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Cryptic
[2013/05/07 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Because the limited freedom people prefer puts some constraints on them. Hence people say ‘I cannot do X, my boss is making me work late’ or whatever. And it is not their fault: It is the boss’s fault.
[2013/05/07 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: We can and do agree on some form of value. We have all decided that money exists by mutual agreement.
[2013/05/07 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Merit, mmh. Another definition for that is “accumulating positive tendencies”, in the sense of benefitting others.
[2013/05/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: It is better to live in a society where, if you fail, you can point the finger at something other than yourself.
[2013/05/07 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why is it “better”, Extie?
[2013/05/07 15:39]  Cryptic Hak: Valuing a sentient being is probably much more complex than valuing money.
[2013/05/07 15:39]  Elizabeth Spieler: the only thing of true value is offspring
[2013/05/07 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Offspring? Why?
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Elizabeth Spieler: without them we go extinct
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah! hehe good point 😉
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Second Life: Unnatural Magic is offline.
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Becaise it is hard to admit to your own failings.
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Be (be.ewing): depends on your definition of life
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Elizabeth Spieler: offspring become our caretakers when we are old
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you mean that the “easier” way is “better”, Extie? 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Failure is relative as well. For example failing for a homeless man means not eating. Failure for an overachiever student means not getting an A.
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe that’s why we have the current educational system….
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, for most people.
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Patton said: “Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser.” I think he was onto something. Being labeled a loser in our society is really poisonous.
[2013/05/07 15:40]  Cryptic Hak: whispers: A+
[2013/05/07 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, Art
[2013/05/07 15:41]  Cryptic Hak: Blah. Being labeled a loser by person X in society doesn’t mean that person Y will believe it.
[2013/05/07 15:41]  Be (be.ewing): hmmm … but who would accept being labeled “a Loser”????
[2013/05/07 15:41]  Cryptic Hak: And we are talking about perception over actuality. A label changes nothing.
[2013/05/07 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we’re proceeding towards a society of egotistic hedonists who are lazy, Extie… because that’s the ‘easy way’… and that somehow is ‘better’. Hmm.
[2013/05/07 15:41]  Elizabeth Spieler: winner and loser is embedded in child rearing, because the only effective method of training children is using the reward system
[2013/05/07 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might disagree 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:42]  Be (be.ewing): I too Gqyneth
[2013/05/07 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Why not? If society deems you a loser..
[2013/05/07 15:42]  Be (be.ewing): * Gwyneth
[2013/05/07 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I might disagree with Extie, not with Elizabeth, mind you)
[2013/05/07 15:42]  Elizabeth Spieler: well technically the hedonist society is caused from not seeing value in the offspring
[2013/05/07 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Loser and Winner are value judgements. It depends on one’s own definition. Even someone barely surviving can find winning things in life, at least momentarily…
[2013/05/07 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: It matters in situations where you need public confidence. If you’re running for office, people aren’t going to vote for a loser. (A *lot* of people vote for whoever they think is going to win!)
[2013/05/07 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: The bank isn’t going to loan money to a loser.
[2013/05/07 15:43]  Second Life: Sylfie Del Vanima (sylfie.minogue) is online.
[2013/05/07 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, ultimately, if we take that aspect of society to its ultimate consequences, we will not have a society at all — people will be too lazy for doing *anything* and blaming everybody else (who will be as lazy as themselves) for not doing anything…. until there is no more ‘society’ in teh sense of a ‘community of human beings’
[2013/05/07 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: People won’t buy loser products from a loser company.
[2013/05/07 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: The bank isn’t going to loan money to anyone except the person who doesn’t need it! haha
[2013/05/07 15:43]  Cryptic Hak: Value does not equal money, or your ability to make it, etc.
[2013/05/07 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Really Gwyn?
[2013/05/07 15:44]  Elizabeth Spieler: there are societies on earth living without money, it’s called communism
[2013/05/07 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: Money is ONE type of value. But only one
[2013/05/07 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, what is the alternative? Think science. What would be the point of doing research?
[2013/05/07 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe if everybody were the same. But that is not the case.
[2013/05/07 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean some tribes deep in the Amazonian jungle, Elizabeth? 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Apple nearly went out of business in the 1990s. Many people looked askance at Mac users. “What’s the matter with you, are you stupid? Don’t you know that Microsoft won and Apple lost?”
[2013/05/07 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo…. I remember those days.
[2013/05/07 15:45]  Elizabeth Spieler: Gwyneth no – North Korea – Russia – China
[2013/05/07 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: They could get out their Newton and say ‘but look at how great this is!’.
[2013/05/07 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Russia & China definitely have money 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: This topic reminds me of the book Zen and the Art Of Motorcycle Maintenence. Wherein the author attempts to define ‘what is quality’.
[2013/05/07 15:45]  Elizabeth Spieler: so sorry I thought communism was no winner or loser ?
[2013/05/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Art
[2013/05/07 15:46]  Elizabeth Spieler: you are assigned a job
[2013/05/07 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: I should read that book.
[2013/05/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, utopian communism perhaps, Elizabeth, which hasn’t lasted long in any example
[2013/05/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You should, it’s very mind-opening, and has little to do with ‘Zen’ and just a bit about motorcycles 😀
[2013/05/07 15:47]  Elizabeth Spieler: well I know if women don’t have to answer to money there would be a population explosion because birth control would be pointless – I would have 14 kids and love it!
[2013/05/07 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: btw at the start Art said a totally free, fair, open merit based society is impossible. Is that true or overly pessimistic?
[2013/05/07 15:47]  Cryptic Hak: Well, honestly, who gives a fuck about what your intrinsic ‘value’ is anyway? That, to me, is society imposing itself on the individual.
[2013/05/07 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s an utopian ideal, Extie., Such a society would need perfect people.
[2013/05/07 15:47]  Elizabeth Spieler: I think that is what the USA has now
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: society shapes the individual. It is the mirror in which we see ourselves.
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: What do we have?
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But then again, democracy is also an utopia, and we live reasonably well inside it, even though the majority of all people are not ‘democratic’
[2013/05/07 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: It’s impossible only because there has to be someone who defines what merit is, and that definition is perceived differently by people with different experiences.
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Cryptic Hak: I reject the ideas of merit and being-based value.
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: and what do you put in their place?
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Cryptic Hak: Nothing.
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: exactly, that’s why I can’t possibly understand that a society encouraging lazyness and blaming others has a future — a future as a society, mid you
[2013/05/07 15:48]  Elizabeth Spieler: well by my merit I am totally free to work
[2013/05/07 15:49]  Cryptic Hak: This whole conversation is an exercise in people trying to impose meaning on a meaningless universe.
[2013/05/07 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: why, I disagree 🙂 Everybody can definitely think about merit without consulting anyone else. It just requires introspection.
[2013/05/07 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Cryptic: exactly. The universe just means what we say it means.
[2013/05/07 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Nothing wrong with that, Cryptic.
[2013/05/07 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: This reminds me of the topic a few weeks ago when we tried to envision a society without physical wants and kept running into a problem with judeo christian ‘work ethic’ not allowing that to happen easily.
[2013/05/07 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: People cannot live without meaning.
[2013/05/07 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They can invent their own meaning, though — most often the *wrong* one, alas
[2013/05/07 15:50]  Cryptic Hak: Extropia: Nope…though it is an exercise in futility :)…and sure, people can live w/o meaning.
[2013/05/07 15:50]  Elizabeth Spieler: “Without a vision men perish” someone wise said it
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: exactly — society shapes thought, and we’re stuck with the judeo-christian view
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Elizabeth Spieler: I know lots of people living without meaning
[2013/05/07 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: So in most of our minds, is ‘merit’ related to ‘hard work’?
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Cryptic Hak: Gwyn: no we aint
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Cryptic Hak: in most minds merit is related to ‘effective work’
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Well. Give me an example then!
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Elizabeth Spieler: merit is “whom” cooks the best cake
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: If by live you mean they can say ‘the universe is meaningless’ and then get on with their own life which they fill with meaning, then yes people do get on without meanning:)
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Cryptic Hak: Gwyn: Atheism
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: no! It’s about benefitting others through your actions.
[2013/05/07 15:51]  Second Life: jesz Murakami is online.
[2013/05/07 15:52]  Second Life: Naring’nari (joey.aboma) is online.
[2013/05/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Atheism exists MOSTLY in the West as *opposing* judeo-christian values; it hasn’t evolved *by itself* as a view.
[2013/05/07 15:52]  Elizabeth Spieler: hmm I lied, no one can live without meaning unless they a vegetable in a coma sorry my mistake should have thought before I spoke
[2013/05/07 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Elizabeth: one person’s great cake is anothers, overly sweet mess.
[2013/05/07 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: In other words, people say the universe is meaningless but they somehow do not think this applies to them:)
[2013/05/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie’s paradox is what I meant: people just think about whatever meaning they wish.
[2013/05/07 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha extie
[2013/05/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Extie!
[2013/05/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not laughing! It’s *exactly* that!
[2013/05/07 15:53]  Elizabeth Spieler: ArtCrash I don’t like cake LOL
[2013/05/07 15:53]  Cryptic Hak: Gwyn: so? That doesnt mean it isnt an alternative to Jesus
[2013/05/07 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m of the opinion that we make our own meanings. Then act on them.
[2013/05/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s like mmh… we know we will die one day, but we pretend it won’t happen to us.
[2013/05/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tend to agree, Art
[2013/05/07 15:53]  Elizabeth Spieler: thoughts are evidence meaning – those claiming they have no meaning are in serious denial of existence
[2013/05/07 15:53]  Elizabeth Spieler: /me **!!faints!!**
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Personal death is something everyone knows will happen, but very few believe will happen.
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Cryptic Hak: For me, I know death will happen, I just hope it wont be tommorrow 😀
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Elizabeth Spieler: I don’t know what word activates that gesture but it makes me laugh when it appears
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even someone who kills themselves saying they found no meaning in life will find ONE meaning: to kill themselves to stop suffering for lack of meaning 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: We believe it will happen, we just don’t want to think about it in advance.
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: It will not. Cuz tomorrow never comes;)
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Cryptic Hak: That is a very wide and ambiguous way to use the word ‘meaning’ tho.
[2013/05/07 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was very Zeno of you, Extie 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:55]  Elizabeth Spieler: yea Gwyn it’s a self made mind lie
[2013/05/07 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: was he the keyboardist for Roxy Music? Oh no…that was Eno.
[2013/05/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Elizabeth! I agree 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Cryptic, what I meant was… most people will just get hints from society on what they’re supposed to do in this life.
[2013/05/07 15:55]  Cryptic Hak: We aren’t supposed to do anything.
[2013/05/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They can either follow those hints or oppose them,
[2013/05/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but the ‘hints’ are what shape their thoughts.
[2013/05/07 15:56]  Elizabeth Spieler: yea we got to chop wood and carry water
[2013/05/07 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Why is SL not the kind of society that is free, fair and open?
[2013/05/07 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, that’s also the influence of judeo-christianism — by opposition, Cryptic.
[2013/05/07 15:56]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): meaning is rather abstract. can’t quantify. a pound of meaning, or merely an ounce
[2013/05/07 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because people in SL are not free, fair, or open, so SL is just a speculum mundi.
[2013/05/07 15:56]  Elizabeth Spieler: SL is not free fair and open? huh
[2013/05/07 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, I’m thinking in most workplaces, merit is the rule. It is just that the Boss is the one who decided exactly what form merit takes. It could take the form of a well shaped ass and not increased sales.
[2013/05/07 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most of our lives are spent with abstract concepts that we invent and/or absorb from others, luisa 🙂 There is actually very little that we can ‘quantify’.
[2013/05/07 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, nothing is to stop me trying to compete against Art in whatever she specialises in. I have access to prims and whatnot.
[2013/05/07 15:57]  Second Life: Roberta ‘bobbi’ Melodie (bobbi1969.melodie) is online.
[2013/05/07 15:57]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hullo Templeton
[2013/05/07 15:57]  Cryptic Hak: Gwyn; well, I think that atheists, in the absence of christianity, moight not say “I don’t believe in God.” they would just generally use reason instead of blind faith to make decisions. So I shouldf have said ‘rationalism’ instead of ‘atheism’ in my initial response to you.
[2013/05/07 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: The only thing preventing me from being as good as Art is…I am not.
[2013/05/07 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2013/05/07 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: hardly…
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Elizabeth Spieler: well opposite of free is slave, and I do grasp some folks like to play that role in SL but many do not so I don’t understand
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There *is* atheism outside of the Judeo-Christian world, Cryptic, we’re just not familiar with it 🙂
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Second Life: Naring’nari (joey.aboma) is offline.
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Cryptic Hak: Elizabeth, it is more complex than that.
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Elizabeth Spieler: I saw a statistic that 56% of the global population is christian sect
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Templeton Tigerpaw: Hi all
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘free’ is another of those abstract concepts hehe
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Cryptic Hak: Hey Templeton
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Second Life: Naring’nari (joey.aboma) is online.
[2013/05/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Templeton!)
[2013/05/07 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Templeton!
[2013/05/07 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: The trouble is the world is not a dichotomy. Free vs Slave for instance. It is a continuum of both. Gawd, I’m sounding like Zen Gwyn! haha
[2013/05/07 15:59]  Elizabeth Spieler: there is a problem with the world? Where?
[2013/05/07 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yin and Yang, man
[2013/05/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Elizabeth — and what those statistics don’t say is that even those who are NOT part of that have a world-view which was created in *contrast* to theirs.
[2013/05/07 16:00]  Elizabeth Spieler: sighs
[2013/05/07 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: There must always be a problem. If there were no problems we would have nothing to solve and, as a problem-solving species that would be….. a problem.
[2013/05/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Art. Actually, I know there is ‘freedom’ in the utter sense of the word — be free even from one’s deepest, inner compulsions — but that’s something that can only be experienced, not really written about….
[2013/05/07 16:00]  Cryptic Hak: Our problem is survival.
[2013/05/07 16:00]  Elizabeth Spieler: oh discussing problems never produced a solution
[2013/05/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Problem is what we think is a problem 🙂
[2013/05/07 16:00]  Cryptic Hak: That’s what we’ve been solving since time immemorial. Survival and self-propagation
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Elizabeth Spieler: if there was a real problem the solution would be known
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Elizabeth Spieler: can’t have a problem without the solution
[2013/05/07 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: True, survival is our overarching problem, but there is a lot of other stuff to be done while procrastinating about survival sometimes.
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Survival is a problem that can be, and has been, outsourced.
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Second Life: Zobeid Zuma is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Elizabeth Spieler: I don’t mind if we go extinct – as a bunch we’re not that bright
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Cryptic Hak: Looking for a problem to solve is yet another attempt to impose meaning upon a meaningless world by a sentient being
[2013/05/07 16:01]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Second Life: Peter Stindberg is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Second Life: Zobeid Zuma is online.
[2013/05/07 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): where originated this believe in self regulation? could just be lack of ideas on active steering
[2013/05/07 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): wb Zob, Gwyn
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks 🙂 Zo crashed too?
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is she my newly found alt? lol
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah. Second time today.
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Second Life: Lucius Diller is online.
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my.
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: It always happens when I zoom my camera on an av. 😛
[2013/05/07 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you might have fallen prey to the same admin tinkering on cables
[2013/05/07 16:02]  Elizabeth Spieler: discussing problems with no solution is just gossip
[2013/05/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, I was doing the same, Zo 😛
[2013/05/07 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ll just have to try and break that habit.
[2013/05/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Elizabeth!
[2013/05/07 16:03]  Elizabeth Spieler: Betty slept with Harold – Harold’s wife Wilma sees that as a problem, and her solution was to kill Betty, it’s simple actually
[2013/05/07 16:04]  Elizabeth Spieler: no problem without a solution – anything else is just gossip about Harold cheating on Wilma
[2013/05/07 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: All problems have solutions by definition.
[2013/05/07 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: betty and Wilma are biggamists, as Barny and Fred can testify.
[2013/05/07 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hard words, Elizabeth, but I think you’ve grasped the point perfectly.
[2013/05/07 16:05]  Elizabeth Spieler: right Art so no solution is the evidence it’s just gossip and no solution can be sought discussion gossip
[2013/05/07 16:05]  Elizabeth Spieler: thank you Gwyn!
[2013/05/07 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m betting there was a huge Flintstones wife swapping orgy that we just didn’t find out about…. heh
[2013/05/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha!
[2013/05/07 16:05]  Elizabeth Spieler: giggles Extropia an analogy we can all relate to 😉
[2013/05/07 16:06]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): /me exchanges the label from “Thinkers” to “Flinstone Gossipers”
[2013/05/07 16:06]  Elizabeth Spieler: If Wilma does nothing then there is no solution – end result Wilma has no problem with Betty and Harold sleeping together – it’s simple
[2013/05/07 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say no solution things can be put in the category of ‘conditions’.
[2013/05/07 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: I am sorry but I do not get the point you are making, Elizabeth.
[2013/05/07 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right! So a “problem” is just a concept, like all the others, and depends on the person really
[2013/05/07 16:06]  Elizabeth Spieler: Wilma might even move out! that would be a solution too, proving there is truly a problem
[2013/05/07 16:06]  Second Life: Naring’nari (joey.aboma) is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, the problem must have ‘merit’. heh
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Elizabeth Spieler: yes Art anything else is just vain gossip
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Second Life: Naring’nari (joey.aboma) is online.
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: so were there problems before there were people?
[2013/05/07 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting point Extie.
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My answer is simple: no.
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Elizabeth Spieler: yes animals rescue animals
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Survival has always been a problem.
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Cryptic Hak: a variation of ‘if a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?”
[2013/05/07 16:07]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): again a difficulty to quantify the problem. “betta” as a single case allready equals infinity
[2013/05/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, animals with sentient minds… sure, they have their problems too
[2013/05/07 16:08]  Elizabeth Spieler: so the animals that can rescue found the solution to the problem
[2013/05/07 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think problems do require sentience, however.
[2013/05/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So do I.
[2013/05/07 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Otherwise they are just events.
[2013/05/07 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: If you are a fly, the problem is how to escape the web. If you are a spider, the problem is how to make escape impossible.
[2013/05/07 16:08]  Second Life: Mr. Yuk (6mr6yuk6) is online.
[2013/05/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not even that, Art — to label it as an event requires a sentient mind.
[2013/05/07 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Shit Happens…… namaste…..
[2013/05/07 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/05/07 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: But, then, flies and spiders do not solve problems. Natural selection does. What other animals are problem solvers in the sense people are?
[2013/05/07 16:09]  Cryptic Hak: ROFL
[2013/05/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Extie. And using Elizabeth’s argument, from the perspective of, say, a bumblebee flying around, there are no ‘problems’ whatsoever. Or, using Art’s definition, just ‘events’
[2013/05/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh they certainly solve problems, Extie 😛
[2013/05/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just because they don’t use logic, maths, geometry and science… that doesn’t mean that they don’t solve problems.
[2013/05/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fcat, most HUMAN problems are not solved rationally 😛
[2013/05/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *fact
[2013/05/07 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is A pride of lions a meritocracy? And if so, how is that different from any other power struggle.
[2013/05/07 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: when a bird builds its nest does it know what it is doing or why it is doing it?
[2013/05/07 16:10]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): this natural selection sweeped into to many challenges that are of a higher order
[2013/05/07 16:10]  Cryptic Hak: Yeah I can see a total evolutionary psychology angle here
[2013/05/07 16:10]  Cryptic Hak: *I can totally see
[2013/05/07 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: So maybe ‘merit’ is the end result of a power struggle of some sort.
[2013/05/07 16:11]  Second Life: Flenser Juergens is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s close to a meritocracy in the sense that what gives ‘value’ to the pride is the ability to lead the pride, to protect it, to provide it with food and shelter. The ones able to do all that have a good chance to become leaders.
[2013/05/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that’s the negative side of it, Art
[2013/05/07 16:11]  Cryptic Hak: your value is how you boost the survival function of the generation in which you live.
[2013/05/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The positive side: the leader of the pride is the one that has the most advantageous characteristics (physical, mental…) to provide best
[2013/05/07 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Getting an A level is definitely a power struggle in every sense of the word, I’m thinking….
[2013/05/07 16:12]  Cryptic Hak: Your merit can affect how your are treated by more powerful members of society. If you aid those powerful members of society in THEIR survival, they will be more likely to help YOU survive.
[2013/05/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Cryptic, but a lion might not even think about that 🙂 Not directly for sure; but certainly the leader of the pride will have a go at all those sexy lionesses. So, to become a leader, the lions have to acquire certain characteristics which will be viewed by all as more beneficial to the group than negative. That’s ‘merit’.
[2013/05/07 16:13]  Cryptic Hak: But it might be instinctual in lions, due to natural selection.
[2013/05/07 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: So let’s agree that it is WHO defines what merit is that is in control of those trying to achieve it?
[2013/05/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Cryptic, that’s “accountant’s altruism” — do this for me, I’ll do this for you. A bargain.
[2013/05/07 16:13]  Cryptic Hak: Right
[2013/05/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who, in a pride, “defines” what is best for the pride?
[2013/05/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s genetically established 🙂
[2013/05/07 16:13]  Cryptic Hak: yep
[2013/05/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and, if you wish, a result of natural selection
[2013/05/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s not like the Lion’s Association of Leaders decide what is best for prides or not.
[2013/05/07 16:14]  Cryptic Hak: lol
[2013/05/07 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is established by fighting in Lions, isn’t it Gwyn?
[2013/05/07 16:14]  Second Life: Mr. Yuk (6mr6yuk6) is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:14]  Cryptic Hak: I so want to be a lion now.
[2013/05/07 16:14]  Cryptic Hak: No committees 😀
[2013/05/07 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/05/07 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: good one
[2013/05/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not only *fighting* — you’re always looking at the negative effects 🙂 Lions are lazy, they will avoid fights
[2013/05/07 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: You could write a followup to Nagel’s classic and call it ‘what it is like to be a lion’ Cryptic:)
[2013/05/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless that’s the only choice.
[2013/05/07 16:15]  Elizabeth Spieler: animals operate in a Democracy it’s been proven in the film “I AM”
[2013/05/07 16:15]  Second Life: Thaddeus Sautereau is online.
[2013/05/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, bees and ants don’t 🙂
[2013/05/07 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): pffft just bigger kitties
[2013/05/07 16:15]  Elizabeth Spieler: there are no slaves
[2013/05/07 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ants are probably more like machines
[2013/05/07 16:15]  Elizabeth Spieler: in animals
[2013/05/07 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well I have to way that a lot of what we are talking about is the definition of Nietzche’s ‘Will To Power’, which he concluded was the driving force in human interaction…..
[2013/05/07 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: say
[2013/05/07 16:16]  Elizabeth Spieler: I never done anything for power
[2013/05/07 16:16]  Elizabeth Spieler: I can’t even ponder it sorry
[2013/05/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I have seen groups of domestic cats, where the alpha leader was NOT the strongest or the one who picked more fights. In fact, he was quite ill. But he was way more clever than the others and could figure out tricks like opening doors and the fridge… so they followed him because they saw an advantage in following someone who could provide best for all of them. It’s _not_ only aboutn “fighting”
[2013/05/07 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu know they say dogs are bred from wolves? Well, did someone take a lion or panther or some such big cat and, after generations of selective breeding we ended up with the tabby cat, ginger, persian etc?
[2013/05/07 16:16]  Elizabeth Spieler: what is power? lol
[2013/05/07 16:17]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): actually ants are creepy. their organisational level seems to rise with number; quite the opposite from higher developped beeings
[2013/05/07 16:17]  Elizabeth Spieler: I babysit the dog – I guess I am mighty powerful
[2013/05/07 16:17]  Cryptic Hak: well ants are brute force creatures
[2013/05/07 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: Going to the grocery store is you exerting your will to survive. A small part of your will to power.
[2013/05/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: yes, but if you take neurons as an example… it’s the same thing 🙂
[2013/05/07 16:17]  Cryptic Hak: the more ants they have to mindlessly follow chemical trails of other ants…the more chances of finding food
[2013/05/07 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: A dog thinks ‘human does everything for me, human is god’. Cat thinks ‘human does everything for me. I am god’.
[2013/05/07 16:18]  Elizabeth Spieler: I feel power finishing a work of art
[2013/05/07 16:18]  Elizabeth Spieler: I feel power writing a poem
[2013/05/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s unknown, but it’s a likely story — but probably not from lions and panthers, more likely lynxes
[2013/05/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes
[2013/05/07 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Why do we not know?
[2013/05/07 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: ants are an interesting case. I am currently dealing with immortal black ants that are attacking my kitchen from unknown directions. They don’t learn when they are wiped out shift after shift after shift.
[2013/05/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we know SOME things, but not ALL.
[2013/05/07 16:19]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): brute force – intelligent results. hmm
[2013/05/07 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it odd, though. I have often seen books on evolution explain the origin of dogs. But never cats.
[2013/05/07 16:19]  Cryptic Hak: appearance of intelligence.
[2013/05/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ants are VERY interesting. There is a huge ant war among two species *across all of Europe*, which has been going on for a few decades. It’s still undecided. Scientists wonder how they communicate battle results over thousands of kms!
[2013/05/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: cats are very little researched
[2013/05/07 16:19]  Elizabeth Spieler: it’s been great I gotta go 😉
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Only very very recently you started getting some reports
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See you, Elizabeth!
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Texas is getting invaded by raspberry crazy ants.
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Cryptic Hak: ants are a complex system built of relatively simple components…but lots of them
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cryptic: like brains!
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Cryptic Hak: lol yeah
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: The strangest thing about ants is the emergence of super colonies in which two or more ant colonies- which are not related- work as one. This should not happen, given everything we think we know about ants.
[2013/05/07 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: The good news is that they’re wiping out the previous invader species, the fire ant. The bad news is that now the fire ants don’t seem so bad.
[2013/05/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s actually a good analogy, because it’s not “the queen” taht really tells all ants what to do… it’s waaay more complex than that
[2013/05/07 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Same with bees, they just do what they do. But they do it in a social way.
[2013/05/07 16:21]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): simple design, redundancy. like spiders … more eyes, more legs, more of everything (except more sophistication; still an assemble of the cheapest components)
[2013/05/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: exactly. It’s a fascinating subject. One wonders, is this similar to the extelligence concept?
[2013/05/07 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: the ants have programs hardwired that tell them what to do. A few basic rulesets that are determined by the other ants in their vacinity.
[2013/05/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: from the perspective of a HUMAN observer, yes!
[2013/05/07 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: Next week: How much are humans like ants and bees?
[2013/05/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very few, and very basic, Extie. Like neurons!
[2013/05/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say pretty much so, Art 🙂
[2013/05/07 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: No next week is about that 3d printed gun and whether it was right to make the CAD file freely available on the web…
[2013/05/07 16:22]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): does this wiring adapt? or just extinct; how will the next release be a design improvement? just by natural selection?
[2013/05/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that all those are unknowns, luisa, if you’re still talking about ants and bees and not neurons…
[2013/05/07 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: I remember reading a book about how much our desires are controlled by our genetics. Much more than we want to realize. INteresting stuff.
[2013/05/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, but the beauty of us human beings is that we can transcend that control 🙂
[2013/05/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, most people do NOT want to do that
[2013/05/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, instead, justify their actions based on the genetically-driven desires.
[2013/05/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is specially true in this era… the Era of Feeling
[2013/05/07 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: I agree that we can ‘transcend’ some of that control, but less than we realize…
[2013/05/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I feel, therefore I exist
[2013/05/07 16:24]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): my believe is genes are overrated. we are mostly adapted behavior. childhood raising got more impact than chemicals
[2013/05/07 16:24]  Second Life: Magic Pathfinder (any1.gynoid) is online.
[2013/05/07 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Turkle says we have gone from ‘I have a feeling, I need to text’ to ‘I want a feeling, I need to text’.
[2013/05/07 16:25]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): this 3D gun is a hoax! the base part, this 9×19 parabellum shell mostly makes the functionallity. the other parts are merely … decorations
[2013/05/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just a matter of training, Art — it’s like playing a piano faster than our eyes can see what keys are pressed. Technically it “shouldn’t be possible”, but musicians do that all the time. Training, lots of training.
[2013/05/07 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Luisa, there is actually a lot of research about the nature vs nuture idea, and the preponderance of evidence lies with the nature side of things…..
[2013/05/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I agree with Turkle, whoever they are, it’s getting worse!
[2013/05/07 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Why would you need to see the keys being pressed?
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Coordination!
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: She. Turkle is Sherry Turkle the MIT psychologist who is my hero.
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: ??
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Second Life: Magic Pathfinder (any1.gynoid) is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, try to drive a car without having lessons first. It seems impossible
[2013/05/07 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: I haven’t looked at my keyboard once during this discussion, now that I think about it.
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even tying shoelaces
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: 4 minutes left folks, anyone feel like saying something on topic?
[2013/05/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, ARt — but perhaps you remember the FIRST time you used a keyboard?
[2013/05/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s all about training.
[2013/05/07 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Like the first time you tried to walk.
[2013/05/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whispers: Yes!
[2013/05/07 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: Merit is relative. Therefore meritocracy will be relative to the merit decider. So there can be no objective meritocracy.
[2013/05/07 16:27]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): whats been toppic btw?
[2013/05/07 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: /me had a really hard time with shoelaces. 😦
[2013/05/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, we are NOT wired-in to use keyboards and drive cars 😛
[2013/05/07 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: When you try and walk a tightrope at first you think ‘oh it is impossible!’ but you had the same trouble with balance and stuff learning to walk.
[2013/05/07 16:28]  Second Life: Android Neox is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:28]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if driving skills would be hard wired, you could not improve. merely .. natural selection
[2013/05/07 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: oh the topic..
[2013/05/07 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: If you compete in a free, fair, open, merit-based society and lose, what does that make you?
[2013/05/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Merit is relative, but everybody can know what is meritory and what is not; it all depends on how introspective they are. So, just like ants can fight battles between colonies without being sentient, we can also find our own merit, if we just train ourselves enough to do that 🙂
[2013/05/07 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Answer: someone has decided that you are loser, but not necessarily you.
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, it’s like a jazz orchestra
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It doesn’t need a maestro
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It only needs all players to play *very well*
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Second Life: jesz Murakami is offline.
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Cryptic Hak: I think it is also possible that there is an ‘objective’ merit as well. Which can be expressed by how a generation or a set of generations of human’s ‘survival function’ is increased by the mere existence of the human whose merit is being judged.
[2013/05/07 16:29]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): that someone would face resistance
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I notice a pattern in your thoughts, Art…. you’re always claiming “it has to come from above”. That’s your imprint of Judeo-Christian thought 😀
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: If you “lose” you can just try something else. Unless your loss resulted in “winning” a Darwin Award.
[2013/05/07 16:29]  Second Life: Magic Pathfinder (any1.gynoid) is online.
[2013/05/07 16:30]  Cryptic Hak: However, most judgements of merit would be subjective attempts to approximate that objective merit value.
[2013/05/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me loves Darwin Awards! hahaha
[2013/05/07 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK the sun rises over Art’s home and my time is up!
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