april 23 2013 thinkers_001
Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers..
[2013/04/23 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: and today the topic for discussion is…
[2013/04/23 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: The world produces enough to provide every person with 4.3 pounds of food per day. Why, then, are some going hungry?
[2013/04/23 15:32]  Scarp Godenot: Brokali’s AO is fighting with the chair anim and winning.
[2013/04/23 15:32]  Sorcs Nolan: Inefficient and selfish supply systems
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Because the Great Computer is not allocating 4.3 pounds of food per day to each human being, I assume.
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: Profit motive as the only value that is defended worldwide.
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Brokali: lol I can’t see mesh on my old viewer am I in a situation?
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Brokali: lol
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Sorcs Nolan: those who can pay or grow, get to eat
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody raised an interesting point..
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: profit motive is the reason why we produce so much food in the first place
[2013/04/23 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: Brokali, I think your Animation Overrider is conflicting with the chair animation. Turn the AO off.
[2013/04/23 15:34]  Brokali: ok
[2013/04/23 15:34]  Jasmin Helstein: food greatly goes where the money is
[2013/04/23 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: We all agree there is a basic human right to life, and yet a fundamental necessity for life is food and we seem not to have a basic right to that. So does that not contradict the notion of a right to life?
[2013/04/23 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Having a “right to life” is not the same as being owed a living, Extie.
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: We need a minimum living wage enforced by law. T
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s like saying, I have a right to keep and bear arms, so why has nobody issued me a rifle yet?
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: What does it mean, then?
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Sorcs Nolan: Right to life seems to only get anyone to the birthed stage, after that, you’re on your own
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me signs under Zo, again
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Jasmin Helstein: a minimum wage might just rise the food prices
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: How can you have a right to life but no right to the very thing that keeps you alive?
[2013/04/23 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: As long as corporations can exploit third world workers, people will starve somewhere.
[2013/04/23 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I have a right to freedom of speech! Why is the UN not paying my internet bill, dammit?
[2013/04/23 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Because it does not stop you exercising your freedom of speech.
[2013/04/23 15:36]  Second Life: Gwyneth Llewelyn is online.
[2013/04/23 15:37]  Jasmin Helstein: having a right is not the same as the ability ti use that right i supose
[2013/04/23 15:37]  Scarp Godenot: Corporations need to compete for labor. As long as they don’t have to wages remain low.
[2013/04/23 15:37]  Second Life: Android Neox is online.
[2013/04/23 15:37]  Sorcs Nolan: I think that is the conundrum and conflict we have in humanity today, a “pro-life” movement that is narrow and unwilling to carry that beyond birth, all the way to death
[2013/04/23 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: So the purpose of food is to turn a profit, rather than feed the population?
[2013/04/23 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Your average Corporation tells third world labor. Take this low wage or die.
[2013/04/23 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: I need to bring good old George Carlin and paraphrase his “you either have no rights, or infinite rights”
[2013/04/23 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: you have the right to take everything I have, and I’ve the right to shoot you for that
[2013/04/23 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW did you know that the countries with the largest numbers of starving people are all actually net exporters of food?
[2013/04/23 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Economics dictates everything, one way or another.
[2013/04/23 15:39]  Sorcs Nolan: food became a profit item once we started to civilize. Before then, our pastime was making sure we were fed
[2013/04/23 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Like India, imports about 3 billion dollars worth and exports around 8 billion.
[2013/04/23 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: RL is a crazy world:)
[2013/04/23 15:40]  Sorcs Nolan: very true, about RL and crazy 🙂
[2013/04/23 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: this whole food business is phony, we should evolve into machines already and live of nothing but solar
[2013/04/23 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: What about the African countries that are riddled with drought. ARen’t those the starvation leaders?
[2013/04/23 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Starving the people you don’t like while selling the food overseas is a classic tactic of dictators, by the way.
[2013/04/23 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Like plants, Ivy. Your name would be quite fitting.
[2013/04/23 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2013/04/23 15:41]  Jasmin Helstein: i don’t think it’s just the need for a company to make a profit that causes all the problems, we often don’t even know where our food comes from, you don’t know what’s in you TV dinner
[2013/04/23 15:41]  Second Life: Strix the naked DJ (strix6) is offline.
[2013/04/23 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Many communist regimes used starvation as a way to control the populace.
[2013/04/23 15:41]  Jasmin Helstein: so how do you know that your meal is causing problems elsewhere
[2013/04/23 15:42]  Sorcs Nolan: at a very selfish level, we all want to make sure you have a surplus of food items available for your own consumption
[2013/04/23 15:42]  Sorcs Nolan: no one invites dinner company if their cupboard is bare
[2013/04/23 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Let’s put it this way: many governments around the world don’t care that their people are starving.
[2013/04/23 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Kind of a tragedy of the commons you mean, Sorcs?
[2013/04/23 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: it is not selfish, it’s self interest
[2013/04/23 15:42]  Sorcs Nolan: Yeah, kind of that tragedy of the commons
[2013/04/23 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: it is, in fact, exercising the very right to life we were bringing before
[2013/04/23 15:43]  Sorcs Nolan: in my RL area, folks rush the grocery stores at the first hint of a winter storm
[2013/04/23 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve the right to eat 400g of meat a day, like I did on saturday, yum
[2013/04/23 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Now, meat is said to be a very costly diet.
[2013/04/23 15:44]  Jasmin Helstein: it’s not just about beeing selfish, miss harvests do happen and when it happens somewhere where there isn’t much money people will get hunger
[2013/04/23 15:44]  Sorcs Nolan: and, a few years ago, in the gloomiest days of the recession, you would hear people wonder aloud about how they would live if grocery stores closed.
[2013/04/23 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: what is it they say? That to obtain a burger takes so many bathtubs of water?
[2013/04/23 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: In general, we lack the will to save the starving. As a world, that is.
[2013/04/23 15:45]  Second Life: Craig Horton is online.
[2013/04/23 15:45]  Second Life: Craig Horton is offline.
[2013/04/23 15:45]  Sorcs Nolan: yeah, a cow from birth to butchering is probably not the most efficient way to get edible food for the resources consumed
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: It must be so, Scarp. We cannot argue that we lack the resources because we make enough food to feed everybody.
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whoops
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Hi Gwyn!
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Gwyn
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: all meshed up!
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Yep, she looks good:)
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: So anyway, Gwyn…
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: The world produces enough to provide every person with 4.3 pounds of food per day. Why, then, are some going hungry?
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: even though she is standing inside of a couch
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha yes
[2013/04/23 15:46]  Jasmin Helstein: there are enough recources i think but not always at the right time and at the right place
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lag is killing me, as usual
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There, much better
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Meat is costly if you feed your livestock with food that was already suitable for human consumption.
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: Who is resonsible for starvation in any given country? That is the question.
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: God
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mmh food. My third most favourite subject!
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Second Life: TR Amat is online.
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Basically this whole deal of plentiful food and starving people can be attirbuted to one cause: We use the wrong kind of money.
[2013/04/23 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: God is doing a piss poor job then.
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Sorcs Nolan: and if not fed grains, those cows need quite a fair amount of grazing land
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: I never argued otherwise, Scarp
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Jasmin Helstein: then again … if you had to live from brocoli alone you had to eat about 20 pounds a day in order not to starve, how costly would that be ?
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Sorcs Nolan: which gets back to tragedy of the commons
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s a lot of land that’s OK for grazing but not good for a lot else.
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is an interesting guy called Rudy Rummel (he used to be a SL resident too), a Professor Emeritus at the U. Hawaii, who claims to be able to prove that democracies never have famine.
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Talking of God, one form of cooperative currency has notes with the legend ‘in each other we trust’ 🙂
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Another example is raising pigs on garbage and food waste.
[2013/04/23 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: It isn’t a question of meat versus grain. It is a question of local economies and how they function.
[2013/04/23 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: I am my brother’s keeper, eh?
[2013/04/23 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Pinker reckons no contries with a McDonalds have ever engaged each other in war.
[2013/04/23 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting!
[2013/04/23 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: I think the attitude of I’ve got mine and everyone else can go fuck themselves is part of the problem, yes.
[2013/04/23 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Guess they feel they have suffered enough…
[2013/04/23 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think Scarp is quite right.
[2013/04/23 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Like Pink Floyd sung ‘I’m alright Jack/ you keep your hands off of my stack’.
[2013/04/23 15:51]  Sorcs Nolan: Money, indeed
[2013/04/23 15:51]  Jasmin Helstein: i don’t think it’s that simple, people are often unaware of problems they are causing
[2013/04/23 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve linked it few times before:
[2013/04/23 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. No, I meant mostly that the overall education we get, in most of the West (but most of the East too, though) is to think about Number One first and forget about everybody else. And that obviously leads to assymetries in food & money distribution…
[2013/04/23 15:51]  Jasmin Helstein: food production chains have become very long and no one knows where their food comes from anymore
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: as food becomes networked with cheap sensors and all cause and effect can be logged…would we then become aware and want, as a collective, to change things?
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite true, Jasmin, as we saw in the horsemeat fiasco
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Jasmin Helstein: exactly
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Logged, yes, Extie, but who has access to the logs?
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Certainly not the “mainstream public”
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: You and I, ideally.
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But more likely megacorps & government
[2013/04/23 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very unlikely, I’d say
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t believe “the collective” is able to do anything, be it save the starving or elect a non-asshole for a change
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: History proives you’re right 99% of the time, ivy 🙂
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: In that case, what use is democracy?
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: you tell me!
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Sorcs Nolan: Since folks in places where starvation is happening can’t make a call to food processing places to order shipments, those places remain blissfully unaware…
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Let’s take a country like North Korea. They have the capability of feeding themselves, but instead they funnel off all work product and value to the military and people starve. It is an example of misallocation of resources.
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To keep the exact same guys to be in power over and over again; they have to rotate a bit 🙂
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Sorcs Nolan: and keep shipping to those who buy
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: No! I am Chair and I ask the questions:)
[2013/04/23 15:53]  Second Life: Roberta ‘bobbi’ Melodie (bobbi1969.melodie) is offline.
[2013/04/23 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, an excellent example indeed, Scarp.
[2013/04/23 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: The man who is starving does not have the capacity to question his situation and will gladly take food from the hand that offers it, no matter how bloody.
[2013/04/23 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: It turns out that North Koreans are several inches shorter than South Koreans these days due to malnutrition. That is pretty sick.
[2013/04/23 15:55]  Sorcs Nolan: North Korea is a strong extreme to point to. Food used to control the people
[2013/04/23 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: India — where people don’t *starve* but are very close to starvation in some of the states of the Union — is even odder. They export food, which they could use to feed their own population, and then import food instead. Weird. But it makes economic sense.
[2013/04/23 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: Countries without a minimum wage are more likely to have starving people.
[2013/04/23 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like the UK? hehe
[2013/04/23 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘it is an abiding characteristic of the low that they are too crushed by drudgery to be more than intermitently concerned with events outside of their daily lives’- George Orwell.
[2013/04/23 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that is QUITE true. One is only picky about the quality of food if one has an abundance of food. Nevertheless, I personally find it morally unfair to feed ‘poor’ people with garbage just because they will be happy to eat anything…
[2013/04/23 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: good quote Extie
[2013/04/23 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, good quote, and one that is quite right
[2013/04/23 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: UK has the minumum wage.
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Not a living wage, though.
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: I blame socialists – if work cost wasn’t so high on the west, then food production wouldn’t be so costly on the west, thus importing food from India wouldn’t be competitive and thus India wouldn’t export food.
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since when? 😛 Wikipedia needs an update then, last time I checked, it didn’t
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: Ivy that is so backwards! haha
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Ivy
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: how is it backwards?
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah it made no sense to me either, Ivy.
[2013/04/23 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You should blame speculation in futures instead, actually — not socialists
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi TR.
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Her point is that socialism in countries like Europe tends to pull wages up
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *in Europe
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: in order to export food somebody must want to buy it, and buy it for higher price than you’d get locally
[2013/04/23 15:58]  TR Amat: Hi
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh yeah, hello TR:)
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So food production in Europe becomes prohibitive unless farmers get grants,
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: You are blaming high wages for the problem, when in fact the problem is low wages.
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it’s still cheaper to get it from India instead.
[2013/04/23 15:58]  TR Amat: So, robot farmers will solve all the problems? 🙂
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Sorcs Nolan: futures on food items is very weird stuff, adds to the complication factor of being able to feed everyone in the world
[2013/04/23 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: The problem is, some people are too rich and others too poor.
[2013/04/23 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: not just wages, huge problem is all the regulations and norms
[2013/04/23 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: omg
[2013/04/23 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: bullshit
[2013/04/23 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: what is?
[2013/04/23 15:59]  Jasmin Helstein: low wages are a problem, yes and they do come from poor education
[2013/04/23 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well TR. Most large — and thus cost-effective — farms are pretty much all industrialized. Not really farmed by autonomous robots, no, but machines that do pretty much everything on their own and just need a bit of guidance, so a single farm can farm vast amounts of farmland efficiently
[2013/04/23 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: blaming regulation for lack of production.
[2013/04/23 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh.
[2013/04/23 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: no, it is not bullshit, cost of producing food in Poland skyrockted in Poland after accession to union since all the food plants had to fulfill all the norms or they’d go out of business.
[2013/04/23 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Low wages come from lack of education?
[2013/04/23 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I personally think that the problem is that some people are too poor 😀 (I don’t subscribe to the idea that the rich ‘have’ to exploit the poor — they just do it because they CAN, not because they NEED)
[2013/04/23 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: and not for *lack* of production, but for the *cost* of production
[2013/04/23 16:01]  TR Amat: Given robots, applying exactly the nutrients and fertilizers required, and handling weeds, could smaller farms be made efficient enough to work?
[2013/04/23 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Fiat money by its very nature takes from the bottom and gives to those at the very top.
[2013/04/23 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jasmin: and politics! Living in a country with rather high education and very low wages, I know how that is…
[2013/04/23 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you honestly don’t understand how over regulating an industry increases the cost of production, then I don’t know what to say to you
[2013/04/23 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: I notice that none of you libertarians ever blames excess profits for anything.
[2013/04/23 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: How’s that Extie?
[2013/04/23 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: I’m not an agricultural expert, but my answer would be “no”, based on some conversations with a few friends of mine who are allegedly experts
[2013/04/23 16:02]  Jasmin Helstein: high education and low wages seems an odd combination to me
[2013/04/23 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Because money is debt and debt is money and the application of interest and..well it is complex:)
[2013/04/23 16:02]  Scarp Godenot: Excess profits are directly the cause of income inequality. The bigger the inequality the worse the economy functions.
[2013/04/23 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jasmin: not really. Think about Cuba, for instance! We’re not that bad yet, but close, lol
[2013/04/23 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: What you call excess profits are what economics call an “economic profit” which drives the expansion of the industry and increased output.
[2013/04/23 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: that ought to be a topic for another day. There is really quite a lot to be said about that. You ARE right, now we ought to question WHY the industry barons think otherwise!
[2013/04/23 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: This excess profit thing was the primary cause of economic collapse under Feudalism.
[2013/04/23 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t know if that’s what Scarp is thinking, but here is a typical example: Germany *wants* neighbouring countries to have higher wages to be able to afford their luxury products. So in the past decades they have tried to raise the standards of living (using those ‘excess profits’) everywhere, inside Germany and around it, so that they can expand their markets
[2013/04/23 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unfortunately, this is a nice theory
[2013/04/23 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: CEOs of multinationals and banks seem to get awarded vast profit whether the company they are at the helm at is making a profit or losing money hand over fist:)
[2013/04/23 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But in practice, well, there are always individuals thinking of themselves first.
[2013/04/23 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: We are in a situation now that is morally bankrupt in my opinion. Because we as a world are capable of stopping the starving, but we lack the desire to stop it.
[2013/04/23 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Right.
[2013/04/23 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie, that’s ANOTHER topic. The issue is that these ‘awards’ are differently taxed than regular wages, so it’s better for both companies and their top execs to have lower wages and lot of profit redustribution, stock options, credit cards, extra bonus, etc
[2013/04/23 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Who is “we”? Clearly there are a lot of people who would like to stop it.
[2013/04/23 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: So what are you going to do about it?
[2013/04/23 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think Scarp means, “we, the elected people in power”
[2013/04/23 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought he meant the human race.
[2013/04/23 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: We as the rich West. And now We as the Rich East as well.
[2013/04/23 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Lots of North Koreans are starving. Who elected the people in power there? Is the rest of the world morally bankrupt because of the situation there?
[2013/04/23 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: the Royal We
[2013/04/23 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: what I did is to join a tiny organisation to feed families, based on food and money donations 😛 We cannot ‘fight the system’ but we can put generosity into practice to feed others…
[2013/04/23 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Good for you Gwyn:) You are an example to us all, truly.
[2013/04/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t think about that; it’s impossible to do much really
[2013/04/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BUT…
[2013/04/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t know who had this saying,
[2013/04/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but it rings true….
[2013/04/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Something like this: “It’s crazy people that, believing they can change the world on their own, actually change it”
[2013/04/23 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2013/04/23 16:09]  TR Amat: Are there any near tech developments that might help the situation?
[2013/04/23 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Been reading a book called ‘rethinking money’ in which the case is made, using many actual RL examples, that cooperative currencies are much more effectice at matching unmet needs with resources.
[2013/04/23 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: I’m quite sure the problem is not technological at all, but only political
[2013/04/23 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: the problem is that “we” is not morally bankrupt, or that “we” is immoral, but rather that “we” is amoral. Meaning: “we” is not an agent, it does not have unanimous will nor any way to develop such, therefore “we” cannot solve moral issues such as starvation.
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: Here is a good list of the countries that give a crap about others:
[2013/04/23 16:10]  TR Amat: Maybe the tech we need is a more effective understanding of human nature. 🙂
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie, I’d take that at a pinch of salt. Look at BitCoin. A wonderful idea, as cooperative currencies go. What do people do with it? Speculate. So what’s the difference?
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Sorcs Nolan: tech has enabled there needing to be fewer and fewer farmers needed to feed more and more people
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Gwyn. We make enough food, so the problem cannot be fixed with technology. We HAVE the technology. It must be social change.
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe TR — all righty, I’d go for that 🙂
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: That is but one example, and not one the book even covers.
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Sorcs Nolan: which leaves a smaller circle of folks in charge of supplying the food needed by all
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: They do mention Second Life, though:)
[2013/04/23 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorcs: exactly. So tech is important, for sure, but tghe whole issue is bad distribution, not production.
[2013/04/23 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: And I must say Yay for Sweden. 1 percent of GDP to aid.
[2013/04/23 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt distribution is tech, no?
[2013/04/23 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the sense that you need to get food shipped to feed people, yes.
[2013/04/23 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Yay Alaska, gives every citizen $1000 per year, paid for by its vast natural resources.
[2013/04/23 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless you get a food synthesizer that creates nutrients out of thin air, then you can solve the distribution problem hehe
[2013/04/23 16:11]  Sorcs Nolan: If we put a Hal9000 in charge of food distribution, all might be fed better for a while
[2013/04/23 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay Alaska indeed!
[2013/04/23 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: the venus project utopia
[2013/04/23 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You don’t even need a Hal9000
[2013/04/23 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: An Excel spreadsheet is enough. All you need is the world’s leaders united behind it .)
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: So how do we get to the Star Trek future in which nobody has need of money and we all work for self improvement and the betterment of humankind?
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t think world leaders could do it even if they wanted to, Gwyn
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Sorcs Nolan: world leaders willing to admit they need help with food, or willing to deliver it
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: We need to build replicators first, Extie… heh
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh sure they could. They certainly don’t want to. What, get rid of the future market on food? NO WAY.
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: all they can do is go to their citizens and say “you, give us your money so we can help starving people, OR ELSE!”
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: Tea, Earl Grey, Hot…..
[2013/04/23 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Most of Alaska belongs to the US Govt. That’s not a good model.
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘fish! Fish! (was always more of a red Dwarf fan)
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Franja:)
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Franja, hii!
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Alaska is the most socialist state in America. They share their oil wealth each year in the form of cash payment to each citizen.
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Franja Russell: Hi. How are all of you?
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Great!
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I personally *think* (but of course I just have 20th century history to ‘prove’ it) that a society where nobody has need for money has no drive to innovate, so that kind of society will never produce Star Trek tech
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hello Franja, so nice to see you!=
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Jasmin Helstein: i doubt giving people so much power that they could solve the world food problem with a spreadsheet would be a good idea …
[2013/04/23 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: We are having the last 15 minutes of a discussion on..
[2013/04/23 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: The world produces enough to provide every person with 4.3 pounds of food per day. Why, then, are some going hungry?
[2013/04/23 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: If you really want to help starving people, you need to spread awareness and educate people. Individuals will organize themselves much better if they want to, than any government enforced program can ever force them to do.
[2013/04/23 16:15]  Second Life: TR Amat is offline.
[2013/04/23 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jasmin: my point is that they already have it!
[2013/04/23 16:15]  Franja Russell: Very interesting discussion.
[2013/04/23 16:15]  Franja Russell: Unfortunately I’m not usually able to log on at this hour. But I’ll try to in the future.
[2013/04/23 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: You need to solve the problem of income inequity or there will always be starving people.
[2013/04/23 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Income inequality is not a problem per say.
[2013/04/23 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: inequity or inequality?
[2013/04/23 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: I can’t believe you are just now discovering Thinkers, Franja. I should have told you about it years ago. :/
[2013/04/23 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: inequity
[2013/04/23 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: unfairness
[2013/04/23 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I agree that on the long term that strategy will work. And remember, while those people will start benefitting others immediately, more aware people will also demand different governments that are aware of the issues as well, etc. So that’s a positive loop that will just get better over time. Now the question is: how do you get people more ‘aware’? 🙂
[2013/04/23 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: It is right that, say, brain surgeons are paid a higher wage than the janitors.
[2013/04/23 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: no, Franja has been here often enough!
[2013/04/23 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: yes, those greedy Indian farmers shouldn’t earn so much, they should be regulated as much as European ones are so they can’t produce cheaper food, and then they will be forced to sell it on their local markets.
[2013/04/23 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: It does not matter if the gap between rich and poor widens, so long as the poor can sense they are getting richer as well.
[2013/04/23 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: Inequity is when farm workers in America are paid 50 dollars per day and paid 1 dollar a day in a third world country.
[2013/04/23 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Ivy. What happens is that the ‘greedy Indian farmers’ have to throw out their production to keep costs high, or they won’t benefit from speculation in the futures market… where you make FAR more money than actually selling food!
[2013/04/23 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: It is when the rich get richer at expense of the poor that we have a problem.
[2013/04/23 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: dunno, how about we ask the European ones who now have to import food?
[2013/04/23 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Welll…..some of us have a problem with that.
[2013/04/23 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They get grants for that, Ivy 😉
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: which is, essentially, socialism incarnate
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie & Scarp: I wouldn’t say that the inequity IS the problem. It’s more the artificial rules set in place — with the aid of governments — that makes universal food distribution impossible
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: yeppers!
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Inequality is essential.
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Brokali: I’ve enjoyed the discussion ty all
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: KK..
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: What the hell is wrong with socialism, that you can say the word and pretend it is an argument?
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t you worry, on the most capitalistic country of the world, farmers get stipends too
[2013/04/23 16:19]  Second Life: luisa (luisa.bourgoin) is offline.
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: We meet same time each week:)
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take care, Brokall!
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Brokali: I will be returning
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Jasmin Helstein: see you Brokali
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re not always so political 😉
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Like James Bond:)
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Sorcs Nolan: the farming in the USA gets a stunning amount of subsidies
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Arnie 🙂
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorcs: indeed.
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: We just get political when the topic is political. Starvation is a political problem.
[2013/04/23 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As bad as in Europe.
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Sorcs Nolan: in the most extreme, you own land to make sure you get paid to not grow food items on it
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: what the hell is wrong with profit, that you can say the word and pretend it is an argument?
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: I don’t
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you’ve put the finger on it, Scarp. I totally agree. It’s more political than social; and definitely not technological.
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: That could be a slogan, Scarp: ‘Starvation: it’s a political problem’.
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me grins @ Ivy & Scarp
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Second Life: Magic Pathfinder (any1.gynoid) is online.
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Franja Russell: Bye everybody. Good luck.
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Kk:0
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Sorcs Nolan: which seems, to my understanding, to be about influencing the futures markets for those foods
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’ll buy the T-shirt!
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: take care, Franja! It’s always nice to see you!
[2013/04/23 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Come again next week, if you can make it.
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s my understanding as well, Sorcs…
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean mmh
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: (Sure I have seen her before somewhere)
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Has any of you bought food directly from the producer?
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: I have even grown my own. I do every summer.
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Extie: yes. She was a newbie of mine once… in 2005! And I brought her to Thinkers back then)
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Sorcs Nolan: so called farmers markets are more popular here in the past few years
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, what I meant was the price difference
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: I buy at farmers markets regularly as well.
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: My food is bits, brought straight from me primary’s Internet provider;)
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: from what you pay buying from a farmer,
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: The problem with socialism is that it’s computationally infeasible.
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and what you pay on the supermarket
[2013/04/23 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: My parents used to have a small chicken farm, and their neighbor still does.
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Sorcs Nolan: so it is more possible than it used to be
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree.
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Around here there is a further perversion…
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: How does socialism differ from communism?
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Europe is all about ‘standards’ in food production
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what do you do with oranges that are not the right size?
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You throw them away
[2013/04/23 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or with luck, you sell them to juice factories
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: Social safety nets are a fact of life in this modern world Zo. Why? Because they are necessary to insuring a quality of life for the poor, the disadvantaged and the elderly.
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Illegally…. since they can only buy ‘standard’ ones
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Sorcs Nolan: food wasted due to size issues? sad.
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, well, there is a black market for ever-so-slightly-smaller oranges than EU standards
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorcs: exactly
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: “socialism is the only system that successfully fights with problems not known in other systems”
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: There was a TED talk on the food that gets thrown away. It is quite depressing to watch, actually.
[2013/04/23 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can get a kilo of oranges for, say, mmh €0.89 or so, on a grocer
[2013/04/23 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: If socialism was limited to “safety nets” as such, that wouldn’t be much of a problem.
[2013/04/23 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That same amount gets me 5 kilos at least from a producer I don’t know; but 10 kg from a producer I know; and they’re still making a profit
[2013/04/23 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Imagine a field that, as far as the eye can see, is covered with tomatos. All to be thrown away because they do not conform to regulations. Seriously.
[2013/04/23 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: “imagine”?
[2013/04/23 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why imagine?
[2013/04/23 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most of Europe is like that.
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: well, I mean, I am trying to convey the images used in that TED talk. Actual photos, I mean.
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Sorcs Nolan: Wow. My mind is a little blown about these size standards on produce
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah sorry lol
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: missed the reference to teh TED talk
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Jasmin Helstein: i need to go as well people
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Jasmin Helstein: goodnight everyone
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: nini 🙂
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not just size, Sorcs, there are other characteristics as well
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Sorcs Nolan: if you turn the tomatoes into sauce, who cares what their size was?
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take care, Jasmin
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –>
[2013/04/23 16:26]  Second Life: Unnatural Magic is offline.
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Sorcs Nolan: what else is the standards?
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorcs: exactly. But there is a limit to what factories ‘need’ — and we produce too many tomatoes anyway. So the trick was to limit the sizes to what can be sold to factories, too
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh. We are not talking about badly damaged or diseased food here, but produce that looks perfectly OK but does not fit some criteria or other, such as a banana that is a bit too bendy or a bit too straight.
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Haha, Repo Man soundtrack WTG Zo!
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh, flavour, colour
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Colour for sure
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thickness of shell and so forth
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: I *lurv* Repo Man. 😀
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Second Life: Android Neox is offline.
[2013/04/23 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: aye, exactly that
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Sorcs Nolan: hmmmm
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well three minutes folks…any closing comments?
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was actually necessary because there is a HUGE surplus of food production in Europe & US
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So food here would be DIRT CHEAP —
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah butter and grain mountains.
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: even with higher wages!
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So…
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To avoid a collapse of the futures market in food,
[2013/04/23 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, governments artificially changed the rules
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why I keep insisting that the issue is ONLY political
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: quick guide to EU:
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree, Gwyn.
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, and they don’t allow pink slime in beef anymore! 😛
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not even, “Indians can plant food cheaper than Americans, so we cannot compete”
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: Don’t you know Gwyn, socialism for Corporations is just fine!
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: step 1) enforce production limits on f.e. sugar.
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Sorcs Nolan: Have to agree, politics is the core issue on this topic
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not true. We compete with mass industrialization of farms that gets us dirt cheap produce
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: step 2) wait till a bit worse year in crops.
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: So Scarp’s replicator would not solve the problem?
[2013/04/23 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: step 3) wonder why there is a sugar deficit and we have to import it.
[2013/04/23 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nope.
[2013/04/23 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ivy
[2013/04/23 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m grinning but you’re right
[2013/04/23 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!
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