THINKERS APRIL 02 2013: A FREE FUTURE IN A ROBOT SOCIETY

Stranger Nightfire at Thinkers

Stranger Nightfire at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2013/04/02 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Thanks trophy
[2013/04/02 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is..
[2013/04/02 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: What actions should we as a society take to ensure a free and prosperous future in a fully robotized economy?
[2013/04/02 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Well I do have an opinion on that, and I voiced my opinion to God, i.e. Anders Sandberg and he was a little dismissive…..
[2013/04/02 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: what was your opinion, sweets?
[2013/04/02 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: However I think, other than stockpiling rare Earth elements to barter with…
[2013/04/02 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: We need to engage with a far more democratic society really soon now
[2013/04/02 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: We need to make sure that the distribution of income isn’t just a wealthy class and a poor class.
[2013/04/02 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: how do we do that?
[2013/04/02 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: If we don’t the political created by investments, and profits will displace people into extinction.
[2013/04/02 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: We need to create a truly capitalist economy!
[2013/04/02 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: We need to rething leisure and make it a creative goal, not just a reward.
[2013/04/02 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Is a roboticised economy a truly capitalist one?
[2013/04/02 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: Well if you say that everyone gets capital, in the form of a basic income, the hell yes, I am all for more capitalism.
[2013/04/02 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Not automatically, Extie.
[2013/04/02 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: what might prevent it from being so?
[2013/04/02 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, it’s capitalist in the sense that you’ve replaced most of the labor with capital, in the form of robots.
[2013/04/02 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: I express the suspicion that robitization favors Oligarchy.
[2013/04/02 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is a good point.
[2013/04/02 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Oligarchi favors monopoly and thus reduces supply and demand, and competition.
[2013/04/02 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Art, could you elaborate on your earlier point about leisure?
[2013/04/02 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Oligarchy favours defensive business strategies.
[2013/04/02 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: We have an economy today in which most people live by selling their labor services. If labor is replaced by capital, that’s not gonna work anymore.
[2013/04/02 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Yep
[2013/04/02 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: So the obvious answer is to make all those people sellers of capital, i.e. capitalists.
[2013/04/02 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, today’s culture sees leisure as something that is a reward for work OR a right of the wealthy. That is: is must be deserved. We need to change the idea to one where leisure is a right.
[2013/04/02 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: However in formal capitalism, any rectifying mechanism against labor displacement would be unacceptable.
[2013/04/02 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah. A robot is different in that if it is AGI and as intelligent as you, it could fill ANY role you might be able to earn a living it. So in that sense it is different to any automation that came before it.
[2013/04/02 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Rectifying mechanism??
[2013/04/02 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s not *necessarily* true, Extie. It depends on how AI works.
[2013/04/02 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Rectifying mechanisms against uhm disparity are in the current system, by and large statist redistributionism,
[2013/04/02 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: That has become effectively impossible.
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: No not necessarily true. But if it is a general intelligence, then it is true. But not narrow AI, no.
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: hiya Harry..
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Grab a seat and join in:)
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): hello
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): thank you
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: we only just got started.
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, the major difference between labor and capital is that labor had a certain amount of intrinsically democratic quality, because nobody can monopolize it (aside from unions and the like).
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: Extropia I do not believe an AGI would be liberating. In fact I fear that AGI would be empowering towards their creators.
[2013/04/02 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: If you need more work done, at some point you have to hire more workers.
[2013/04/02 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Right now we are stuck in the idea that there is a dicholomy: Work or Suffer. With needs being met without work, we need to change that Victoraian work ethic. Maybe to something where self worth is determined by creative living.
[2013/04/02 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: However. Not any more.
[2013/04/02 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: But there’s no limit to how much capital an individual can control and supply.
[2013/04/02 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Art, is it actually the case that people dislike those who take leisure but cannot afford it?
[2013/04/02 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes Art, but how do you FORCE a system that stands to benefit the more it actively marginalizes?
[2013/04/02 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Its like swimming up a water fall.
[2013/04/02 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Oh yes, there are huge prejudices about the unemployed. Usually starting with the word lazy.
[2013/04/02 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh drugg user, pervert, lazy, liberal, not caucasian.
[2013/04/02 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I do worry about the work ethic. At some point the rising tide of robot workers is going to make it exceedingly difficult to find employment.
[2013/04/02 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhm yes
[2013/04/02 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: so what is to be done about it? At what point do we introduce a lifelong retirement?
[2013/04/02 15:42]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): workers are actually against robotics and automation
[2013/04/02 15:43]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): at least the workers ive worked with
[2013/04/02 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Human nature will also want to accumulate wealth (which is a form of power). This means inequities are inevitiable unless there is law that prevents them.
[2013/04/02 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: Under conditions of vastly increased competition for scarcer jobs, you will see work ethic change in (a) work hysteria or (b) people opting out.
[2013/04/02 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: In principle or only because it would take away wages?
[2013/04/02 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: I am against taxing away wages of people that work.
[2013/04/02 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: what would those people say if they knew the robot would work and they would get its earnings?
[2013/04/02 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: That takes away incentive.
[2013/04/02 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: The only fair thing to do is tax away profit on investment.
[2013/04/02 15:44]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): money is the root of all evil…. can anyone here see a society without money?
[2013/04/02 15:44]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): hmmmm
[2013/04/02 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: That would be very difficult Harry
[2013/04/02 15:44]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): sorry, I dont believe in taxation.
[2013/04/02 15:44]  Stranger Nightfire: based on what is currently going on in our politics there seem to be many who would be happy to let the poor and unemployed just die away
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): oh, we are only to discuss easy solutions?
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): sorry.
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Sheesh, you people sound like a bunch of commie hippies or something.
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: It would be trying to rebuild a ship while in a storm.
[2013/04/02 15:45]  lufpleh Obstreperous: replace work with knowledge, people spend more time in education learing to attain the nirvana of getting a job, oh thats what people do now!
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: No not at all Harry.
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): well… yes
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: /me giggles at Zobi.
[2013/04/02 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well Harry, I would say control of resources is the root of all evil, money is just it’s proxy.
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): and that is exactly where we are
[2013/04/02 15:45]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): a ship in a storm
[2013/04/02 15:46]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): soooooooooooooooo
[2013/04/02 15:46]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): everyone is NOT equal
[2013/04/02 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: It should be obvious that the system must be governed by a free market. The only question is what mechanisms to put in place to make it function smoothly.
[2013/04/02 15:46]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): oh dear…..
[2013/04/02 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: About what Luf said…does anyone here give credence to the idea that the economically worthless might be driven to extinction or allowed to die?
[2013/04/02 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: The more I think of it, the more we in the west are victims of the Victorian work ethic. It is imprinted in our worldview to a huge extent.
[2013/04/02 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t, Extie.
[2013/04/02 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: It does strike me as scaremongering. Although I guess it IS a possibility.
[2013/04/02 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I think you are right, Art..
[2013/04/02 15:47]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): if you start out with the assumtion that the system must be governed by a free market, you are lost.
[2013/04/02 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, the masses are not just gonna say, “Oh, I’m economically worthless. I think I’ll go lay down and die now.”
[2013/04/02 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: If people were not so materialistic most would be working less than half the hours they do.
[2013/04/02 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Certain hunter gatherer cultures are very happy to do their work only a few hours a day. We should be as well.
[2013/04/02 15:48]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): Ex, i worked because I enjoyed it.
[2013/04/02 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: No but the robots might turn up with big guns and start culling.
[2013/04/02 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Me too, Harry:)
[2013/04/02 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: There are three ways to resist disequilibrium of wealth and income. (1) is tax/redistribute, (2) is print money and inflate and (3) is nationalize resources. I strongly suggest in the current geopolitical climate all three are nearly impossible, even though governments print shitloads of money, they scarcely spend it on giving people an adequate income.
[2013/04/02 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Working because you enjoy it would be part of what I would describe as creative leisure.
[2013/04/02 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: What’s the alternative to a free market? Cyber-socialism, with the Great Computer deciding how many resources should be doled out to each of us?
[2013/04/02 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I am definitely not one who thinks money is the only reason to work.
[2013/04/02 15:49]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): can we agree that WE are the masses Zob?
[2013/04/02 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: Won’t work Zobeid. There isn’t a majority in any country for such a change.
[2013/04/02 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: I AM the masses! haha
[2013/04/02 15:50]  Stranger Nightfire: when I was growing up there was much talk about this coming problem of excess leisure and yet what has come to pass is that families now must have two jobs and people are expected to work longer hours
[2013/04/02 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh no you aren’t crash, you are actually quite slender.
[2013/04/02 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Stranger, that has come to pass because of accumulation of wealth by the upper classes and the destruction of the middle class.
[2013/04/02 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not even sure what change you mean, Khannea. I haven’t even gotten around to putting forth any proposals yet.
[2013/04/02 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Can we conclude that there os absolutely no incentive or initiative to go against the prevailing trends of increased inequality *anywhere* in the world?
[2013/04/02 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is democratic law that keeps things from getting worse.
[2013/04/02 15:51]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): geeeez
[2013/04/02 15:51]  lufpleh Obstreperous: bahtan GNP
[2013/04/02 15:51]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): i disagress
[2013/04/02 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: The rich keep getting richer, and with exponential technologies, exponentially so.
[2013/04/02 15:51]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): about things getting worse
[2013/04/02 15:52]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): North Korea could make things a lot worse for us. and may.
[2013/04/02 15:52]  lufpleh Obstreperous: oops GNH
[2013/04/02 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: The natural instinct of wealth, is to accumulate more wealth. Unless you step in and regulate that, you end up with Lords and serfs.
[2013/04/02 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: /me laughs. “Belgium has about a hundred times the economic and military power of North Korea. Don’t be silly.
[2013/04/02 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: North Korea will be gone shortly after China decides to stop propping it up.
[2013/04/02 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: there is nothing wrong with accumulating wealth per se..
[2013/04/02 15:53]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): North Korea just has the atomic bomb.
[2013/04/02 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: North Korea is one of those countries that will have an instant revolution.
[2013/04/02 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: Accumulating wealth is OK. Displacing other people as a result should be a criminal act.
[2013/04/02 15:53]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): and is willing, and perhaps a bit anxious to use it.
[2013/04/02 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, North Korea would lose a nuclear war.
[2013/04/02 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: How do you measure, that Khannea?
[2013/04/02 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: For every one atomic weapon they send our way, we could send a thousand theirs:)
[2013/04/02 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: But we digress..
[2013/04/02 15:54]  lufpleh Obstreperous: “North Korea would lose a nuclear war”, thought the idea of nuclear was was WE ALL loose
[2013/04/02 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I do think an argument could be made for limiting the net worth of individuals, though.
[2013/04/02 15:54]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): luf,
[2013/04/02 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Well measure, not precisely. But seriously, North Korea is a joke.
[2013/04/02 15:55]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): have you ever dealt with the insane?
[2013/04/02 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh no. Only between powers of equivalent military might.
[2013/04/02 15:55]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): logic may not work
[2013/04/02 15:55]  Stranger Nightfire: yes if N.Korea uses a nuclear weopen it will be an act of suicide on their part
[2013/04/02 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: We don’t have to limit the wealth of the top as much as we need to insure the needs of the bottom are met.
[2013/04/02 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe we should concern ourselves with North Korea and nuclear war another day?
[2013/04/02 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: Those those concepts are related.
[2013/04/02 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Precisely Art *kiss* but the poor are so disorganized and apatheic, so how do we do that?
[2013/04/02 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, the idea is, that it would force capital to behave more like labor, where there is a natural limit on how much one person can provide. So we have to spread it out.
[2013/04/02 15:56]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): 9/11 would not have happened if those individuals were frightened by suicide.
[2013/04/02 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh Zobeid? Maybe something like a mixture between soviets and banks?
[2013/04/02 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well to start with we keep the powerful from going ballistic when we try to provide something as simple as healthcare for those who can’t afford it….. heh
[2013/04/02 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure what you are referring to, Khannea.
[2013/04/02 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Socializing the financial world?
[2013/04/02 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Assuming money is not abolished, the only other solution is that the robot workforce is taxes and the revenue raised use to help raise living conditions for those displaced by them.
[2013/04/02 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: My idea is, even though people can’t accumulate staggering sums, they would still distribute what they earn of their own accord. You wouldn’t have the govt deciding where it goes.
[2013/04/02 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: I have suggested in the past competing currencies.
[2013/04/02 15:58]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): Zob,,,,
[2013/04/02 15:58]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): i like that
[2013/04/02 15:59]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): Ex,,, i would like you to be more open minded about a society without taxes
[2013/04/02 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Bitcoin might be a start. Yanno, quickly irreversibly deflating the value of existing currencies.
[2013/04/02 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: The original US income tax was specifially only for the wealthy with the express idea of getting wealth back from the Robber Barons and putting it into the economy.
[2013/04/02 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok…
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Ah zobeid, voluntary stuff. Charity you mean? As in “they can have cake”. I am sorry but I am distrustful of voluntary potlatch.
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: So how would it work?
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: I hate the income tax. I know we could come up with something better. However, I don’t see how that directly connects with the robot problem. 🙂
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): im not so sure, Art, i think the original tax was just to grab all they could…..
[2013/04/02 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: nope, it was to deal with the massive capital accumulations.
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: What’s your concern over it, Khannea?
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Progress tax maybe? If you have a means of production all the other people do not have, you pay a tax for that?
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): what is the robot problem?
[2013/04/02 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess..,maybe the basics of life like food, shelter, basic health care could all be free, provided for by the robots?
[2013/04/02 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: Robots cant do that yet Extropia.
[2013/04/02 16:01]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): it is percieved as putting people out of work?
[2013/04/02 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: They may in a few years. But its still fantasy.
[2013/04/02 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Sort of like food stamps on steroids? :/
[2013/04/02 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes I would say that is the problem.
[2013/04/02 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: Heh
[2013/04/02 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Khannea this debate is based on the premise that robots WILL do every job you can imagine.
[2013/04/02 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: Right now money itself is a sort of regarded as an AI, right?
[2013/04/02 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: and how are we to adjust to that eventuality?
[2013/04/02 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ideally, the robot workers would lower the costs of goods to nearly nothing. This would make the poor able to be provided for. The problem comes from where do the poor get money if there are no jobs?
[2013/04/02 16:02]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[2013/04/02 16:02]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): the solution to the taxation question….
[2013/04/02 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: You can get a lot of free stuff in SL. And some expensive stuff too.
[2013/04/02 16:02]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): now we are getting somewhere
[2013/04/02 16:03]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): what if……
[2013/04/02 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: I agree with the premise. But the problem we will have to get there, and getting there may take 10 or 50 years. And the problem is, in the transitional stage of getting to a society where work is no longer rewarded, we risk moving to a society where all rewards generated go to investors.
[2013/04/02 16:03]  Stranger Nightfire: certainly robotics is a field that has progressed at a faster pace than I would have expected it too
[2013/04/02 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Not a problem if everyone becomes an investor. But how do you make that happen?
[2013/04/02 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe RL will be the same in the future? You could live perfectly well on free stuff provided for robots, but if you need to show how wealthy you are there would be expensive items for purchase too?
[2013/04/02 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: You have hit the point exactly Khannea. Those who control the flow of commerce will want to keep all the rewards.
[2013/04/02 16:04]  Stranger Nightfire: the investor class has always been careful to keep others from joining their ranks
[2013/04/02 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Odd thing to say, Stranger… Example?
[2013/04/02 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Very much so, Stranger.
[2013/04/02 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Zobeid, the idea of “making everyone an investor” is not what we’d want. We would want to make everyone a stakeholder. Say, every human on the planet gets a nontradeable share in Terra.
[2013/04/02 16:05]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): 10% of the US owns 90% of the financial assets
[2013/04/02 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: The share allows that human a inalienable pension. Hence, a basic income.
[2013/04/02 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: But how is it calculated?
[2013/04/02 16:05]  Stranger Nightfire: you go out as a working stiff and try to get your hands on some investment capital
[2013/04/02 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: But, this is all nonsense. Those in power will NEVER agree to ANY form of reward-for-nothing. Theyu’d simply call it “theft” or “socialism” and that’ll be the end of it.
[2013/04/02 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: How do you translate that into a flow of resources? Do you have the Great Computer do it by some sort of arcane formula?
[2013/04/02 16:06]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): are we trying to solve the US debackle? or aspire to an ideal society?
[2013/04/02 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: They’ll send in the police with mace and rubber bullets.
[2013/04/02 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: The idea of ‘work’ is turned on its head with the investor class. They do nothing productive, yet they seek all of the profits. Then these exact people tell those who make the goods that they need to work for what they get.
[2013/04/02 16:06]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): guess Im a bit confused
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I am trying to aspire to an ideal society.
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Khannea, rubber bullets? I don’t think that’ll work where I live.
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): they are also the exact ppl who make the laws, and run the country…..
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): good Ex, then I am with yoiu
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): IF
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh if needed they’ll escalate to nerve gas. Trust me, they did that in Egypt.
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): first we can envision and define that…..
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: yay!
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): THEN
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Stranger Nightfire: no, ultimately the bullets will not be made of rubber
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: We’ve got too many people with an AR-15 tucked behind the seat of the pickup truck.
[2013/04/02 16:07]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): envision a path to get us there….
[2013/04/02 16:08]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): oh dear Zob….
[2013/04/02 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: /me envisions ED209 “YOU HAVE 20 SECONDS TO COMPLY”
[2013/04/02 16:08]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): got to run, was fun!
[2013/04/02 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: For me a perfect society is one in which every person has the opportunity to be all they can be.
[2013/04/02 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, bye!
[2013/04/02 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Thanks for coming:)
[2013/04/02 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: The more I think about this today, any kind of solution to this problem lies in repairing income inequality. How that is done eludes me….
[2013/04/02 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Everyone joins the Army, Extie? 😀
[2013/04/02 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: one two three four I love Marine corp..
[2013/04/02 16:09]  Stranger Nightfire: and they have drones, rocket lauchers, tanks, jet bombers and nukes Zoe
[2013/04/02 16:09]  Harry (anstett.brandenburg): great discussion, was nice meeting you all.
[2013/04/02 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: Art love even saying what you say right now, simple statements you make online on income redistribution may end us all up in a concentration camp ten years from now.
[2013/04/02 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t be a stranger Harry
[2013/04/02 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha, too true
[2013/04/02 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I know Art. Everyone sends all their money to a big central bank and it shares it out equally among the entire human race.
[2013/04/02 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Me for that! haha
[2013/04/02 16:10]  Mr. Yuk (6mr6yuk6): how does bitcoin deflate the value of other currencies khan?
[2013/04/02 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: (Wonder where Gwynie is?)
[2013/04/02 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: BitCoin, like all currencies is based on simple faith that it’s value will continue. The moment that faith falters, the end of it will come.
[2013/04/02 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: She is attempting to get online and failing I think Extie…..
[2013/04/02 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Poor thing.
[2013/04/02 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Well Mister Yuk, in Cyprus people transferred massive amounts of money in to Bitcoin. Those Bitcoin all fled the country or tried fleeing the country, threatening bank solvency. Bitcoin exploded from a mere few ten millions of dollars total worth to a billion in 2 months. That is an exponential growth curve.
[2013/04/02 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: She needs a computer upgrade!
[2013/04/02 16:12]  Stranger Nightfire: so do I : ((
[2013/04/02 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: MAke sure you tell her so when you next see her.
[2013/04/02 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think she has told me this herself… heh
[2013/04/02 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: so we all done with this discussion?
[2013/04/02 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Bitcoin is a symptom. There will be many symptoms of the geofinancial mess we are in other than Bitcoin.
[2013/04/02 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, powah to the people! Woooot! haha
[2013/04/02 16:14]  Stranger Nightfire: next we can discusss what to do when the robots rise up and rebel agaist having to do all the work!
[2013/04/02 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, why not? We have 15 minutes left..
[2013/04/02 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh yah I already feel so affraid my fridge is going to swallow me whole.
[2013/04/02 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Or what happens when they decide that humanity is inefficient and therefore must be destroyed!
[2013/04/02 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: How would robots get the self awareness necessary for that kind of uprising?
[2013/04/02 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: “awareness” is such an outdated concept for these kinds of processes.
[2013/04/02 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: How does a grassmower have an awareness the grass is too long.
[2013/04/02 16:16]  Stranger Nightfire: yeah, very advanced kinds of computer processors are coming
[2013/04/02 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Hans Moravec said we should be content to be wiped out by intelligent robots, since we would have produced a superior race of beings and that is the best any intelligence can hope to accomplish.
[2013/04/02 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: And they need not be “aware” and any of those quaint cartesian ideas.
[2013/04/02 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Did you see that they retired one of the big supercomputers, because it used too much power?
[2013/04/02 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: I agree Extropia. And I used to speculate your primary was Hans Moravec 🙂
[2013/04/02 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: you mean Roadrunner?
[2013/04/02 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Roadrunner was outdated.
[2013/04/02 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Most technologies are kept around long after they’ve been displaced by better ones. I expect homo sapiens will be the same.
[2013/04/02 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: This one was still the 20th fastest when it was retired. It was just too expensive to run.
[2013/04/02 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: We’ll be the fountain pens, the vinyl records, the film cameras of robot world.
[2013/04/02 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: It was. Now it is Ray Kurzweil. But he is thinking of retiring so next week it will probably be Rachel Haywire. Yeah.
[2013/04/02 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: You mean like horses, Zobeid?
[2013/04/02 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Collector’s items!
[2013/04/02 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Horses too, yeah.
[2013/04/02 16:18]  Stranger Nightfire: maybe the robots will keep us around sort of like pets
[2013/04/02 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: I want to think more about a future of work not being directly tied to income, and what that world would look like…..
[2013/04/02 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Makes sense. I am cute.
[2013/04/02 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: The connection between work and income isn’t always that *direct* even today. :/
[2013/04/02 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Would the future world be filled with MMO gamers and garage bands?
[2013/04/02 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Would following one’s bliss be hedonism or art production?
[2013/04/02 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Or both
[2013/04/02 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Would lots of Amish styled work communities spring up?
[2013/04/02 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Work for works sake?
[2013/04/02 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: I consider iron pumping in the Gym to be work for works sake…. heh
[2013/04/02 16:20]  Stranger Nightfire: interesting idea about the Amish thing
[2013/04/02 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: I could imagine virtual worlds becoming huge. Calling them MMO games doesn’t do justice to the possibilities.
[2013/04/02 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: I woudn’t mind charitable prostitution for a few centuries, given the right body upgrades.
[2013/04/02 16:21]  Stranger Nightfire: true Zoe
[2013/04/02 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well would The Matrix take over Zo?
[2013/04/02 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe it already has! Oo…
[2013/04/02 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Only to the extent we want it to. I know some people would view virtual worlds as ends in themselves.
[2013/04/02 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’d bet there would be lots of the people I know just skiing all winter and hiking all summer. That happens now! haha
[2013/04/02 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I know so many ski bums
[2013/04/02 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: They devoted their life to skiing. And make do however they can in order to maximize skiing days.
[2013/04/02 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Would that kind of thing be the norm for everyone?
[2013/04/02 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: I know a few men that would spend every waking hour fly fishing.
[2013/04/02 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: I know a few that would do nothing but bicycle racing.
[2013/04/02 16:23]  Stranger Nightfire: whispers: Arthur C. Clark wrote a story years ago where the humans ended up plugging themseves into somekind of big dream machine and disappearing from
[2013/04/02 16:24]  Stranger Nightfire: RL altogeather
[2013/04/02 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah what was that story again?
[2013/04/02 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Travelling… Perpetual tourists.
[2013/04/02 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Midnight’s children?
[2013/04/02 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: was that it?
[2013/04/02 16:24]  Stranger Nightfire: don’t remember the title
[2013/04/02 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lots of Sci Fi advanced societies just become incorporeal entities that just think for eternity.
[2013/04/02 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: It seems the majority of advanced societies leave their physical bodies.
[2013/04/02 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: in Sci Fi, that is.
[2013/04/02 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: 5 minutes left peoples.
[2013/04/02 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course there is the rest of the galaxy out there, let’s not forget. 🙂
[2013/04/02 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: I can conceive of personally not working for money. I can think of lots of things to occupy my life.
[2013/04/02 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: So I think it isn’t beyond the pale to have a society like that.
[2013/04/02 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah we should find enough to keep ourselves occupied for quite some time,Zo.
[2013/04/02 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: and with that..even thought it is a bit early, MY TIME IS UP!
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