Thinkers March 19 2013: Will our civilization collapse?

march 19 2013 thinkers_001
Welcome to Thinkers!
[2013/03/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2013/03/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Every civilization in history has collapsed. Why should ours be any different?
[2013/03/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok well..
[2013/03/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: first of all I would say china is an exception..
[2013/03/19 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: since it obviously has not collapsed..
[2013/03/19 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: And of course, every civilization in the world hasn’t collapsed. So this topic is shot down, QED.
[2013/03/19 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: What’s next? 😀
[2013/03/19 15:36]  TR Amat: Hi
[2013/03/19 15:36]  Alexi Flux: Well, ours is not any different….it’s collapsing everywhere
[2013/03/19 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: China existed before the birth of Jesus and is still with us today.
[2013/03/19 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is the mesh sizes notecard fyi
[2013/03/19 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: thanks Art!
[2013/03/19 15:36]  TR Amat: Maybe collapsed but we haven’t noticed yet? 🙂
[2013/03/19 15:36]  Alexi Flux: I mean….the USwill collapse soon
[2013/03/19 15:37]  Alexi Flux: The British Empire went ages ago
[2013/03/19 15:37]  Alexi Flux: Alls going
[2013/03/19 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Those aren’t “civlizations”.
[2013/03/19 15:37]  Alexi Flux: That’s true Zob
[2013/03/19 15:37]  Alexi Flux: Are there any civil isaatins?
[2013/03/19 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hi people! Come sit with us!
[2013/03/19 15:38]  TR Amat: Is the Internet a ‘civilization’?
[2013/03/19 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Hmm..
[2013/03/19 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is an interesting question TR
[2013/03/19 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: good question..
[2013/03/19 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: So I would tentatively say no, it is a form of communication like the telephone
[2013/03/19 15:39]  Lyle (lyle.lindman): What if we see the origins of the Us in the greek culture and the roman culture 😉 Actually in present day London or in New England you can learn more about ancient greek wisdom teachings than in Athen 😉
[2013/03/19 15:39]  Lyle (lyle.lindman): Us = US
[2013/03/19 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: It is a part of civilization. I would not say it is a civilization unto itself.
[2013/03/19 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: A communications system that contains lots of cultural information.
[2013/03/19 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Civilization is more resilient than we usually give it credit for. It doesn’t collapse spontaneously, there has to be some severe pressure.
[2013/03/19 15:41]  Alexi Flux: Collapse is maybe too strong….maybe decline?
[2013/03/19 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Our civilization will certainly collapse if we cannot replace fossil fuels.
[2013/03/19 15:41]  Alexi Flux: Things go down, and things go up….
[2013/03/19 15:42]  Alexi Flux: Well yes….what happens when we don’t have electricity?
[2013/03/19 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: The stone age didn’t end because of the world running out of stones.
[2013/03/19 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Not having electricity would be shocking.
[2013/03/19 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: har
[2013/03/19 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: The stoned age didn’t end either
[2013/03/19 15:43]  TR Amat: Civilization is what you use so you don’t have to do all the hard life maintenance stuff yourself?
[2013/03/19 15:43]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): But running out of resources is a serious problem.
[2013/03/19 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: right..
[2013/03/19 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Screwing up our biosphere is the big problem.
[2013/03/19 15:43]  Alexi Flux: People can steal….
[2013/03/19 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: The stone age gave way to the iron…no the bronze age..
[2013/03/19 15:44]  Alexi Flux: They do anyway
[2013/03/19 15:44]  TR Amat: Allegedly energy production tech is getting more efficient – we’re increasingly hungry for energy, though.
[2013/03/19 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: copper age first
[2013/03/19 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh..
[2013/03/19 15:44]  TR Amat: Are we in the information age?
[2013/03/19 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: plus old stone age and new stone age
[2013/03/19 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: But what ENERGY were they using? Human and animal muscle I would imagine.
[2013/03/19 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: No. The Oil age.
[2013/03/19 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we are in the electrical age
[2013/03/19 15:45]  TR Amat: Fire, water, muscle energy…
[2013/03/19 15:45]  TR Amat: Some wind…
[2013/03/19 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lots of hot air too
[2013/03/19 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2013/03/19 15:46]  TR Amat: The information is what makes it all work, though.
[2013/03/19 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some say we are in the disinformation age
[2013/03/19 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: So civilization either transcends or collapses, right?
[2013/03/19 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Thing is, TR, it was always the ‘information age’.
[2013/03/19 15:46]  Lyle (lyle.lindman): I guess right now we have a race science and education vs scarcity and changing conditions. There is already nuclear fusion on its way and lots of concepts have been thought up. And I guess if we want it or not in the future maybe genetic engineering might save food supply on earth, too.
[2013/03/19 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Information was fundamental to cave men just as it is to us.
[2013/03/19 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: We have been in gthe information age for as long as we have been able to communicate.
[2013/03/19 15:47]  TR Amat: Information is far more ‘active’ and portable these days…
[2013/03/19 15:48]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): I remember watching this a while ago. It may be of interest for people to watch it afterwards:
[2013/03/19 15:48]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346):
[2013/03/19 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: what is it?
[2013/03/19 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m sticking with the electric age. Because that is what is seriously different with our present tech vs past tech.
[2013/03/19 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok Art…Seems like a good definition of our age.
[2013/03/19 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: bloody time changes, hi
[2013/03/19 15:49]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): Hello.
[2013/03/19 15:49]  TR Amat: I find it annoying the YouTube name doesn’t give you even hints of what it’s about…
[2013/03/19 15:49]  TR Amat: Hi Ivy
[2013/03/19 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Hiya Ivy and Aeni!
[2013/03/19 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Ivy
[2013/03/19 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Oh Jared Diamond that is the guy who wrote Guns Germs and Steel, right?
[2013/03/19 15:49]  TR Amat: I sneaked in about 10:30pm GMT. 🙂
[2013/03/19 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: And Collapse.
[2013/03/19 15:50]  Aeni Silvercloud: hello!
[2013/03/19 15:50]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): Yep.
[2013/03/19 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: THat was about Easter island, I think.
[2013/03/19 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: hello back!
[2013/03/19 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: There are still competing theories about Easter Island, and not enough evidence.
[2013/03/19 15:51]  TR Amat: It becomes the Space Age if and when significant levels of resources come from there?
[2013/03/19 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: So today we have more people alive then ever before, making any collapse much more of a calamity. But then again more people means more minds to bring to bare on a way around any potential disaster.
[2013/03/19 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Best evidence of the end of the Mayans shows soil depletion caused by overpopulation leading to agricultural collapse and chaos.
[2013/03/19 15:52]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): Er, Malthusian problems.
[2013/03/19 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I think all collapses happen because a society grows so large it takes all its efforts just to keep from collapsing, and then something tips the balance and the hole precarious thing falls over.
[2013/03/19 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: End of the Mayans? There were still Mayans around when the Conquistadors arrived. (And there are still Mayans around today.)
[2013/03/19 15:52]  TR Amat: So, make sure we know where our phosphates & nitrates (fertilizers) are coming from?
[2013/03/19 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: *whole not hole:)
[2013/03/19 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Collapses happen all throughout the history of life. Most of them caused by overpopulation.
[2013/03/19 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: most?
[2013/03/19 15:54]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): India and China the exception?
[2013/03/19 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: We would be overpopulated were it not for fertilizer derived from fossil fuels. Without the that, we could only support a world population of 2 billion or so.
[2013/03/19 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some by catastrophe
[2013/03/19 15:54]  TR Amat: Shortage of left-handed framzits?
[2013/03/19 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, we had the “green revolution” and learned how to turn oil into food.
[2013/03/19 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: right..
[2013/03/19 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: And now we need another revolution.
[2013/03/19 15:55]  Alexi Flux: we are just witnessing an economic collapse….
[2013/03/19 15:55]  Alexi Flux: what happens when we stop consuming?
[2013/03/19 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: We already have the answers to replacing fossil fuel hydrocarbons. Just not commercial yet.
[2013/03/19 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: Haven’t seen it yet where I live, Alexi.
[2013/03/19 15:55]  Alexi Flux: It will come, Zob…
[2013/03/19 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Alexi asked a good question..
[2013/03/19 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: economy is fine, or would be fine rather, it’s politics that are fucked up
[2013/03/19 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: In fact I might make it the topic in a future Thinkers
[2013/03/19 15:56]  Alexi Flux: Everything is made in China now
[2013/03/19 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Favorite quote: “Unlimited growth is the strategy of the Cancer Cell”.
[2013/03/19 15:56]  TR Amat: Stopping comsuming food & water is a bit problematic (plus energy for heating/cooling).
[2013/03/19 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that good or bad, everything being made in china?
[2013/03/19 15:56]  Alexi Flux: Ane the west get rich by selling imports and adding a markup
[2013/03/19 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, China is starting to become an expensive place to manufacture, and companies are starting to look elsewhere for their super-cheap labor.
[2013/03/19 15:57]  Alexi Flux: It can’t last for ever
[2013/03/19 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: China will be replaced by robots 😛
[2013/03/19 15:57]  TR Amat: Move the manufacturing to Africa?
[2013/03/19 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we now understand that in the long run we need to move toward sustainability and way from unlimited growth.
[2013/03/19 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: away
[2013/03/19 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, Africa will probably be last.
[2013/03/19 15:57]  Alexi Flux: yes, They are, Zob, but we have forgotten how to manufacture
[2013/03/19 15:57]  TR Amat: True nanotech is arguably using robots (and AI)…
[2013/03/19 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: nanotech still needs resources
[2013/03/19 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: not even nanotech, you can easily replace a lot of manufacture with regular robotics
[2013/03/19 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree Art. It is a physical and mathematical certainty that a civilization built on endless growth MUST collapse eventually.
[2013/03/19 15:58]  TR Amat: Nanotech needs right elements (garbage+sewage), energy (sublight) and information.
[2013/03/19 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure sustainability is practical to aim for, at a time when technology is still advancing so rapidly. Anything “sustainable” you come up with could be obsolete or redundant next year.
[2013/03/19 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: no need for salaries, no need to have light on factory lines, huge savings on heating
[2013/03/19 15:58]  TR Amat: sunlight*
[2013/03/19 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have to tools for long term strategies, but we so far lack the will to use them. I think we need a massive horrific collapse in order to implement them.
[2013/03/19 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: The key word there Extie is “eventually”. We have no idea whether we are anywhere near the limits.
[2013/03/19 15:59]  TR Amat: We need new antibiotics, or plague/epidemics are soon…
[2013/03/19 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: With molecular nanotech we would have dramatic improvements in our ability to recycle.
[2013/03/19 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me signs under Zo
[2013/03/19 16:00]  TR Amat: /me wonders what ‘sublight’ might be? 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes. But we know sustainability is the only way. And it will happen, either by a Malthusian way in which most of the people starve leaving the few who can make do with less resources, or by becoming sustainable.
[2013/03/19 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: What’s under me?
[2013/03/19 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: nothing, I mean I just agree :p
[2013/03/19 16:01]  TR Amat: Another signature line, Zo? 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Ah, okay. 😀
[2013/03/19 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: We also have learned that the entire biosphere is a system that needs to be taken into account in order to avoid catastrophe. Unbalancing it will cause humans no end of problems.
[2013/03/19 16:02]  TR Amat: Space resources might be one way to get time to reach sustainability…
[2013/03/19 16:03]  TR Amat: We’re starting to look like we’ll need to fit planetary cooling fins…
[2013/03/19 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: So… Do we manage to begin exploiting those space resources before resource depletion costs us the industrial capacity to go and get them?
[2013/03/19 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: or we just don’t care about it at all and figure out how to get independent from it? All the environment alarms seems to be like our ancestors throwing goats into vulcanos hoping it would stop it from erupting.
[2013/03/19 16:05]  TR Amat: Will making sure you have access to enough sunlight be a requirement for a ‘civilized’ life?
[2013/03/19 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Ivy?
[2013/03/19 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Because it seems to me, the situation today is inherently unstable. We can’t stay where we are, and we can’t go back to a pre-industrial world, and the only way forward is… forward.
[2013/03/19 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, a simple example – why do we depend on plants to produce oxygen?
[2013/03/19 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: or rather
[2013/03/19 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: why don’t we try to produce oxygen artificially?
[2013/03/19 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: Because the amounts are so astronomically large, Ivy.
[2013/03/19 16:06]  TR Amat: Synthetic biology to more efficiently make oxygen from carbon dioxide and sunlight?
[2013/03/19 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: precisely
[2013/03/19 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: We have no reason to. The plant life does such a great job we are better off concentrating on tech solutions to other things. Like supersonic flight.
[2013/03/19 16:07]  TR Amat: Cloud cities floating in the upper atmosphere of Venus…
[2013/03/19 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: we have no reason to? Desertification and growing amounts of greenhouse gases are no good reasons? 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: So many organisms depend on stability and balance. We can’t just change a variable for the entire planet and expect it not to cause dramatic effects.
[2013/03/19 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: But if we ever colonise mars, we might need to figure out how to make a breatheable atmosphere.
[2013/03/19 16:07]  Alexi Flux: Keep safe everyone….I read the blog…I’m off to bed
[2013/03/19 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: too late 😀
[2013/03/19 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Not to late, actually. But it is very late.
[2013/03/19 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: No, it’s much easier to change the colonists than it would be to change Mars.
[2013/03/19 16:08]  TR Amat: Jolly hockey sticks…
[2013/03/19 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Desertification can be fixed by mimicking the way large herds affect the soil.
[2013/03/19 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: did yer homework I see 😉
[2013/03/19 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: Desertification is a side effect of global warming. Has been since the last ice age.
[2013/03/19 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh you know the TED talk I am referring to, Ivy?
[2013/03/19 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:09]  TR Amat: Sahara was green…
[2013/03/19 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: and populated
[2013/03/19 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: but, seriously guys, there is only one way we can solve stuff as a species, and that’s the same way we have been solving issues for the past centuries – technology
[2013/03/19 16:10]  TR Amat: And the social tech to enable use to use the hard tech.
[2013/03/19 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Technology will obviously play a crucial role.
[2013/03/19 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is a hypothesis that global warming started with the invention of agriculture. That is when people started burning forests to clear land. And it coincides exactly with 12000 years ago the end of the last ice age.
[2013/03/19 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Once again, Ivy and I are on the same wavelength.
[2013/03/19 16:11]  TR Amat: enable us*
[2013/03/19 16:12]  TR Amat: Massive shifts in UK – upland forests to moors, for example.
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Paris Lecker: ty for letting me listen in for a while. It is time for me to go.
[2013/03/19 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Technology is only part of the solution. The main component is political will. The will to oppose powerful economic interests.
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Lyle (lyle.lindman): Sorry, we need to leave. Really important topic and good discussion @Extropia. Hope to join again.
[2013/03/19 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Keep coming Paris!
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Paris Lecker: Ty:)
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Lyle (lyle.lindman): Take good care you all 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: join the group Lyle
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: I don’t believe in political will
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: What about social change? That TED talk I referred to, shows how desertification can be reversed if farmers tend their livestock so that they mimic the massive herds of old. Is that a tech or a social change?
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Lyle (lyle.lindman): /me waves
[2013/03/19 16:12]  Paris Lecker: Take care and bye
[2013/03/19 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2013/03/19 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: A free market is a big part of what we need to save us. Nothing is more efficient at allocating scarce resources.
[2013/03/19 16:13]  TR Amat: Social tech is needed to fix the politics…
[2013/03/19 16:13]  Lyle (lyle.lindman): bye bye 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: politicians can’t solve local (nation-state level) problems, how do you expect them to solve anything global?
[2013/03/19 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody has been listening to too much Jaques Fresco;)
[2013/03/19 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well for example, we now have the technology to get rid of fossil fuels, but we don’t have the will to implement it.
[2013/03/19 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie please don’t insult me 😀
[2013/03/19 16:14]  TR Amat: Unfortunately, we don’t seem to have anything more effective than politicians… So, we need to fix them. 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Do we?
[2013/03/19 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes we do.
[2013/03/19 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: what technology/s is that, then?
[2013/03/19 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: no, we just need to cut their heads and replace them with dictators
[2013/03/19 16:15]  TR Amat: snip- snip 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: I volunteer to be the first one
[2013/03/19 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is a combination of many technologies. Wind, Solar, wave, geothermal, water etc.
[2013/03/19 16:15]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): You”lhave to get through me first. 😛
[2013/03/19 16:15]  TR Amat: Yes, but could you be ‘benevolent’, Ivy? 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:15]  Mike Stripetail (corvus32346): *You’ll
[2013/03/19 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Mostly solar, geothermal and nuclear.
[2013/03/19 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes Nuclear too
[2013/03/19 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Wind is major.
[2013/03/19 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Those are the ones that scale up.
[2013/03/19 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Windfarms are becoming huge.
[2013/03/19 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Wind doesn’t scale up enough to solve much.
[2013/03/19 16:16]  TR Amat: Thorium reactors, maybe…
[2013/03/19 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Wind is like hydro power — great in local areas where the resources are, but it can’t solve our problems.
[2013/03/19 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Wind farms are total green wash.
[2013/03/19 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Wind is contributing greatly now and will be even greater when the smart grid is implimented.
[2013/03/19 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: What is green wash?
[2013/03/19 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Wind energy.
[2013/03/19 16:17]  TR Amat: White wash but with algae growin in it. 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Greenwash is green tech hyperbole, making something sound “green” when its benefits are dubious.
[2013/03/19 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are huge wind farms now that provide massive amounts of power. This is just a fact.
[2013/03/19 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Usually including the phrase “save the world” at some point. Buy a Prius and save the world!
[2013/03/19 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I know, Art, I see the enormous wind turbine components going past my house. But that doesn’t mean it can take the place of, say, coal.
[2013/03/19 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nobody says it has to take the place of coal, it is just part of that.
[2013/03/19 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: A wind turbine might work for some small home, as a means to add a teeny bit of extra power. But on an industrial scale it is a huge environmental disruption for a pathetic and unreliable amount of power. We are better off not defacing the planet with those things and sticking to other possible forms of power. Like tidal energy or geothermal.
[2013/03/19 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, have I mentioned how amazingly huge those things are?
[2013/03/19 16:20]  TR Amat: Buy a second-hand Prius and? 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: That just isn’t true Extie. I think there are many places where commercail wind power provides massive amounts of power.
[2013/03/19 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie is basically right… Although there are some favorable locations where wind makes sense.
[2013/03/19 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: We have some of those locations here in Texas, but they are being rapidly grabbed up.
[2013/03/19 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Did you know in some places the carbon you release from digging up the peat to make the foundations is much more than you save by installing the turbine?
[2013/03/19 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Wind farms are increasing at an exponential rate atm.
[2013/03/19 16:21]  TR Amat: Wave power makes sense some places around the UK.
[2013/03/19 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Wave turbines are definitely something that needs implementation.
[2013/03/19 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: The amount of concrete and metal it takes to build a wind farm is daunting.
[2013/03/19 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Well I guess everything helps, so in some places maybe wind farms do have a place.
[2013/03/19 16:22]  TR Amat: Tidal power (underwater) makes sense in some places.
[2013/03/19 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is also something called an “ocean temperature gradient generator”. Which used the different temperature at the surface and at depth to drive turbine generators.
[2013/03/19 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: And solar power is growing cheaper by the year. Exponentially so.
[2013/03/19 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: Old idea, Art. OTEC was investigated decades ago, but they couldn’t make it pay.
[2013/03/19 16:23]  TR Amat: I’m quite unsure about the Japanes undersea ‘mining’ of that methane source…
[2013/03/19 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: I did see a proposal for a kind of wind turbine that uses a giant kite. I forget the details, unfortunately..
[2013/03/19 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Solar is starting to reach grid parity in some places and markets. That could be a big deal.
[2013/03/19 16:24]  TR Amat: Solar PV cells aare a quarter cost of what they were even 5yrs ago.
[2013/03/19 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is a company that now produces flexible solar panels at a cost of 40 cents a watt. That means a 1 Kilowatt amount for $400.
[2013/03/19 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: How much does it cost to install them?
[2013/03/19 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Drexler reckoned molecular nanotech could make solar cells as tough as asphelt, so our roads and pavements (sorry, sidewalks) could be made out of it.
[2013/03/19 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, there are the high altitude jetstream kite type devices that have been shown to work as well.
[2013/03/19 16:25]  TR Amat: I need to go. Interesting discussion. Save civilization, Yay! 🙂
[2013/03/19 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Zobeid, these are panels you can install yourself on your roof.
[2013/03/19 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah that is what I meant, Art.
[2013/03/19 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: How much does it cost to navigate the maze of bureaucracy to get permission to install them on your roof? 😛
[2013/03/19 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Anyhow, point being, our civilization isn’t going to collapse from running out of energy.
[2013/03/19 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: The strategy to replace oil is to use many many different power sources.
[2013/03/19 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s just going to collapse from running out of fertilizer, pesticides and antibiotics. 😀
[2013/03/19 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: We know the energy is there. We just have to be smart enough to tap into it.
[2013/03/19 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me signs under Extie now
[2013/03/19 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I carry the I. Sunkiller seal of approval:)
[2013/03/19 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is new tech Zobeid that will replace oil and coal for the production of hydrocarbons. It uses algae or bacteria and gene splicing to make chemical factories that will produce designer hydrocarbons to specification. This field is roughly knows as biofuels, and is only a few years old.
[2013/03/19 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: known
[2013/03/19 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: I know what biofuels are. 😛
[2013/03/19 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: And cultivating algae has proven to be a lot harder than anyone expected, thus far.
[2013/03/19 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah I think Craig ventor is playing a big role in that.
[2013/03/19 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: This is not the biofuel of methane production by fermentation. This is different.
[2013/03/19 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, there are many kinds of biofuels. None of them have shown a big payoff yet.
[2013/03/19 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Anway my time is up!
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