Thinkers March 05 2013: Are schools Obsolete?

march 05 2013 thinkers group._001
Extropia DaSilva: so welcome to thinkers!
[2013/03/05 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: I can make stuff up about anything! heh
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: and today the topic is…
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: ARE SCHOOLS OBSOLETE?
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Scarp Godenot: no. the end
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, the end
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that’s easy. Yes
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok so we have polar views here.
[2013/03/05 15:37]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): what has made them obsolete?
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: the internet
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Scarp Godenot: You mean is the internet going to take over the role of education?
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, what would you say to convince Ivy and Rhi?
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: it already has, Scarp 🙂
[2013/03/05 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve heard many people say schools are obsolete, but I’ve never understood what they think should take their place. I lack the imagination to understand anything different. 😛
[2013/03/05 15:38]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if it is a school teaching internet hosted lessons, it’s still a school
[2013/03/05 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, it’s a case of Oz never gave anything to the Tin Man that he didn’t already have. And yes, the internet has helped the homeschool movement tremendously
[2013/03/05 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: nothing, that’s the point
[2013/03/05 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Random googling isn’t education. It’s just random information pileup with no structure to it.
[2013/03/05 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if you broaden the definition of school enough, then it becomes trivial to say schools are not obsolete
[2013/03/05 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I think what people mean is, the schooling SYSTEM is obsolete. SCHOOLS may still exist but they educate kids in some radically different way.
[2013/03/05 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Sometimes it seems like everyone agrees that the current system is outdated, but they have dozens of different-and-incompatible ideas about what should replace it.
[2013/03/05 15:38]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there’s still a tiny bit of .. inside “homeschool”
[2013/03/05 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, in home schooling, it isn’t random
[2013/03/05 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OK, luisa, as I asaid, if you broaden the notion enough
[2013/03/05 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: exactly that, and I’m personally opposed education, I like learning instead
[2013/03/05 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: what is the difference?
[2013/03/05 15:39]  Scarp Godenot: Home school people fall into two types in my experience. 1) people who know enough to actually guide their kids education and 2)religious nuts.
[2013/03/05 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Because in homeschooling, there are organized activities, plays, history lessons, tutors come in, churches or other facilities are used
[2013/03/05 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: the difference is learning what you need rather than being molded into some sort of a form with knowledge being poured into you
[2013/03/05 15:40]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “radically different” would be nice. rumor has it that our educational “system” is not so much about education
[2013/03/05 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s about warehousing at worst and meeting corporate training needs at best
[2013/03/05 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: education requires an educator, learning is just that – learning
[2013/03/05 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Here in Texas our education system is mostly about football.
[2013/03/05 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Self motivated learning is best, but sometimes you need a teacher; esp. in math
[2013/03/05 15:41]  Scarp Godenot: Certain required topics for education are actually helpful in the long run. If you require some study of science or art for example, you get people who are otherwise not interested exposed to it’s existence.
[2013/03/05 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: why would math require a teacher?
[2013/03/05 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Interestingly, Ivy, this topic was inspired by a TED talk and the speaker claims the traditional school system was necessary for the British Empire. You needed people to be, as close as possible, copies of one another with the same level of skills in reading, writing, and maths.
[2013/03/05 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, theoretically it wouldn’t, but have you tried to learn it without one?
[2013/03/05 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: aside from keeping you employed, Rhi 🙂
[2013/03/05 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: I did, in fact
[2013/03/05 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Math requires a teacher from pakistan to confuse their students, right? (my college experience)
[2013/03/05 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, there have been studies taht suggust the traditional public school system here in the US was to meet the needs of US corporations and big Business; and the biggest industry in an area is always represented by the biggest economic interest
[2013/03/05 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes I expect the reasoning is similar.
[2013/03/05 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: and, as a developer, I learn by myself all the time, otherwise I’d fall out of the loop years ago and be unemployed (not to mention that no school ever taught me how to program)
[2013/03/05 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: Originally public schooling was an enlightenment era idea.
[2013/03/05 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: not industrial Scarp?
[2013/03/05 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the Englightenment promoted private enterprise too
[2013/03/05 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, I would agree that self-motivated learning is the best, but sometimes, you do need teachers. I can learn math by myself, but I’m stuck when it comes to languages; I need someone to talk to.
[2013/03/05 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: It was a radical step, actually. I’m guessing it was opposed by power interests who didn’t want the working class to have any power themselves.
[2013/03/05 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: The TED speaker said he tried an experiment in which he just left a laptop connected to the web in a Bangladeshe village. And when he came back months later the kids had not onli figured out how to operate it effectively but also taught themselves English in the process:)
[2013/03/05 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that’s so cool
[2013/03/05 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: you don’t need a “teacher” to talk to.
[2013/03/05 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, sounds like you have an idiocyncratic definition of teacher
[2013/03/05 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I need one to give me phrases, to correct me if I’m wrong, to take me to places where people talk to me.
[2013/03/05 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: The use of a mentor or teacher speeds up the process of organizing the information of any particular topic.
[2013/03/05 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, right, what I mean by the cat Stevens phrase
[2013/03/05 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: It seems that the most effective way for children to learn with computers is if small groups cluster around a computer, rather than every child have a computer. The former way encourages the kids to communicate with each other in solving problems.
[2013/03/05 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me is worried as she is actually agreeing with Scarp
[2013/03/05 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: having a mentor by no means requires a school
[2013/03/05 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: haha, the bangladeshi’s with a teacher would learn the computer in a day and start learning English immediately.
[2013/03/05 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, absolutely not.
[2013/03/05 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Scarp. In the ‘village’ example those who knew a little about computers mentored those who knew nothing.
[2013/03/05 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): learning processes seem to be tied to interaction. the student<->teacher link but also amongst students themselfes
[2013/03/05 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I wasn’t arguing for schools, except maybe in luisa’s broad definition of one where any community that helps people learn is a school
[2013/03/05 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: then any organized office of developers is a school in this definition
[2013/03/05 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, peer learning is sometimes the best kind of learning
[2013/03/05 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: I think public schools create a possibility for the poor to enter the middle class, whereas otherwise they would be screwed.
[2013/03/05 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): I made a broad definition? oh! right … we should define what a school is
[2013/03/05 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You did, luisa; you did. I saw it right here on my computer screen. lol
[2013/03/05 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I know of a system which reverses schooling and homework. Normally the teacher lectures you and then you go home and work on a task relevant to the lecture. In this reverse model, you watch the lecture on home on your tablet or laptop, and then during school you work on the task and the teacher just acts as mentor.
[2013/03/05 15:49]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): I define a math classroom as “featuring a lockable door” 🙂
[2013/03/05 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I can see that working
[2013/03/05 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: I’d argue that if you look for a mentor because you have a need to learn something and it will make it easier for you, then it is still self motivated learning
[2013/03/05 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, I would agree
[2013/03/05 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I should say that the educator I like the most is Paul Goodman, and my experience teaching homeschoolers simply confirms everything he said.
[2013/03/05 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: I have read that there is a direct correlation between income and adacemic success. The reason? Kids can’t learn much from parents who are not involved or don’t care or don’t know anything.
[2013/03/05 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: There is yet another system where kids are free to do whatever they choose (I guess this does not include activities that would cause harm to themselves or others!)
[2013/03/05 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: one thing that programmers do is pair programming, which gives plenty of opportunity to learn from one another (that’s pretty much the purpose of it) – but there are no tests, no grades and no demands
[2013/03/05 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that means that low income people aren’t involved, don’t care or know anything. So is that your view of poor people, Scarp?
[2013/03/05 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Neph!
[2013/03/05 15:51]  Nepherses Amat: hello ty for tp!
[2013/03/05 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Nerph:)
[2013/03/05 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Everyone, do you know Neph? She asked me what I was doing, so I tp’d her
[2013/03/05 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello 🙂
[2013/03/05 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: I’m saying in general it is a proven fact that middle class parents are more involved in the educational process of their children.
[2013/03/05 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Do they have more time to be involved? More access to educational resources?
[2013/03/05 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I’ve taught people who live in the trucks, were homeless. So I disagree that low income people don’t care, don’t know anything, or aren’et involved
[2013/03/05 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: It’s not due to moral failing. When you are working to survive, you don’t have the resources or time.
[2013/03/05 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it isn’t just Lincoln who has been self taught under such circumstances
[2013/03/05 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Um, ever hear of public libraries, Scarp?
[2013/03/05 15:53]  Nepherses Amat: where is my drink?
[2013/03/05 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: If you were to design a school, what would you say should be the fundamentals that children today should learn? Should we still insist on learning to spell now that spellcheckers are pretty reliable?
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The fundamentals are reading, writing, ‘rithmetic, and how to Google
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: They aren’t that reliable. 😛
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Rhi, I’m speaking in general terms. Of course there are massive numbers of exceptions. All I’m saying is without public schools, the poor would not have the resources to educate their children.
[2013/03/05 15:54]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Neph, on the coffee table
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: should history be about remembering dates when you can google the date of any historical event?
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Dates are over. haha
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Should history have ever been about remembering dates?
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Nepherses Amat: I got one, thanks!
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve a RL friend with whom I went to same class from pre-school to high school. His parents were very involved in education, he always had better grades than me in pretty much anything but math maybe. A paragon of student. He ended up having a rather crappy job and, I’d not so modestly say whenever we now discuss things it’s me who is the intellectual
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Do we need to know our times table in a world with calculators?
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: yes
[2013/03/05 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The stats I’ve read indicate that public schools do a horrible job with the poor. I’ve taught at a school that still trcked people–there was the military track and the welfare track
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Nepherses Amat: I will say I just came from a psycho pharmacology test and it sucked
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok…why?
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Nepherses Amat: are we only talking about kids here?
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: Rhi: We are talking about schooling as opposed to no school at all.
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Nepherses Amat: now public schools teach to the test
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Nepherses Amat: ah
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Nepherses Amat: ok
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: we are talking about schools and whether they are obsolete or not.
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Neph, no, the topic is “Are schools obsolete.”
[2013/03/05 15:55]  Nepherses Amat: yes I see
[2013/03/05 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: so what do you think, Neph?
[2013/03/05 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And I suppose my real view is that “not yet, but soon.”
[2013/03/05 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: why not now?
[2013/03/05 15:56]  Nepherses Amat: well, they should not be, but if the whole point as the gov is only willing to fund, to teach to the test, they should be
[2013/03/05 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And I’m giving models of how people learn without schools
[2013/03/05 15:56]  Nepherses Amat: or corrected
[2013/03/05 15:57]  Nepherses Amat: ah, well in reality there have been huge changes in the school systems due to the economy
[2013/03/05 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Neph, well, if you have government run schools, they have to be accountable, and that means testing to see if they’ve done the job the government wants them to–train people for the military, corporations, go on welfare, etc.
[2013/03/05 15:57]  Nepherses Amat: so that might have something to do with the discussion
[2013/03/05 15:57]  Nepherses Amat: right but NOW they have cut out humanities etc
[2013/03/05 15:57]  Nepherses Amat: teaching to the test
[2013/03/05 15:57]  Nepherses Amat: not really teaching
[2013/03/05 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: Google is effectively the primer from Diamond Age
[2013/03/05 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And btw, Ivy, I’m proud of you for your autodidacticism
[2013/03/05 15:58]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): obsolete/not obsolete is a very sharp decision. maybe in some fields of education, the classical school; classroom concept is mood. taken for example elder people
[2013/03/05 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: My ipad is, what with Google Chrome and Wolfram Alpha installed on it.
[2013/03/05 15:58]  Nepherses Amat: /me does not even know that word
[2013/03/05 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: I have a niece who attends Evergreen State College in Washington state. It is a school that has no grading and no required classes. You make up your own curriculum. From what I have seen, they learn far less than I did in college. FAR less.
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It was invented by a self taught man, who wanted to have a more dignified way of referring to himwself. “autodidact” is someone who is self taught
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Nepherses Amat: oh yes! I went to Antioch for MA
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s like ecydiasist to describe my former profession
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Nepherses Amat: yes Everygreen is good
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *ecydisiast
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: what if they end up being more successful in life?
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Nepherses Amat: /me does not know that word either
[2013/03/05 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: I doubt that they are, actually.
[2013/03/05 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can find spheres of knowledge in my head that were put there by education that, if removed, would likely not affect my life at all
[2013/03/05 16:00]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): it’s not about how much/quick/fast you learn. Best: do not stop. No “having left school, graded, finished!”
[2013/03/05 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, again to use the homsechooling model–the parents want the students to learn history, math, science (even though sometimes they’re own version); there is a popular common core as well as the one the Government is pushing for.
[2013/03/05 16:00]  Nepherses Amat: some progressive schools try to teach to multiple learning styles
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s just that it reflects the parents’ wishes, not the Governments’
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Nepherses Amat: but there are very few
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I googled Ecdysiast and it defines it as ‘a striptease performer’.
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Nepherses Amat: ty hmmm
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Nepherses Amat: /me still is reeling from test
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: that may not be what Rhi meant though.
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes the great Gypsy Rose Lee wanted a more dignified word for “stripper,” and H.L. Menkin, a word lover, invented it
[2013/03/05 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *Menckin
[2013/03/05 16:02]  Scarp Godenot: For example, I appreciate that I was taught hundreds of latin and greek roots in high school. I use that every day of my life. How many kids would learn that on their own?
[2013/03/05 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Hers would be the shortest striptease in history:)
[2013/03/05 16:02]  Nepherses Amat: I don’t understand, why would schools be obsolete unless one is talking about the politics of it all?
[2013/03/05 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Jeez, my spell checker is not doing it’s job; it should prevent my making mistakes
[2013/03/05 16:02]  Nepherses Amat: I mean is the dated?
[2013/03/05 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): can you teach two different variants of history, or is there just one … or two types of politics
[2013/03/05 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Neph, because Oz never gave anything to the Tin Man he didn’t already have. And now that he can use the internet, even more so
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Genevieve
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Nepherses Amat: you mean we can learn on our own?
[2013/03/05 16:03]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hi Genevieve
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: what instead of latin you learned by yourself something else?
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Nepherses Amat: is that the point?
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: It is the schooling SYSTEM which is maybe obsolete. The way we were taught may not be a good way to teach children today. Would it prepare them for the 21st century?
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: maybe the skill you *lost* because you had to spend time learning latin would be more useful?
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Genevieve Lordhunter: Hi sorry to be so late
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: NP people can drop in any time.
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Nepherses Amat: the system is obsolete, and that is political
[2013/03/05 16:03]  Nepherses Amat: but I do not think that was Rhia’s point
[2013/03/05 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: I’m saying I wouldn’t have learned much of what I learned if I hadn’t been introduced to it in school. School opened my eyes to life outside by local culture.
[2013/03/05 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: We are like Hotel California. You can check in any time you like…but you can never leave!
[2013/03/05 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I guess I’m just trying to imagine what a new or reformed system would look like, and I’m not getting much.
[2013/03/05 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: outside MY local culture
[2013/03/05 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, political, technological. No, it’s that we can educate ourselves or our children, maybe with the help of learned people, and the Government isn’t necessary for that, and with the internet, there is definitely no need for Government-run schools
[2013/03/05 16:04]  Nepherses Amat: well one thing would to be to put ppl over $
[2013/03/05 16:04]  Nepherses Amat: but that ain’t happening
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: And in the USA we’re trying to put *everyone* through college now, which is leading to a lot of problems.
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: what would you have discovered if someone had said ‘here. scarp, here is an iPad. Go seek cool stuff on the web’?
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: But the government is necessary for education. Otherwise there will become a growing class of uneducated.
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello all 😀
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Nepherses Amat: you are talking to an anarchist here, I am not big on gov
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Nepherses Amat: however, ppl do need “formal education”
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Neph, no, it isn’t. I mentioned earlier the study that showed that public schools were a way for corporations to get the public to do their training for them. We train kids for the military, for corporations, for welfare, not for themselves
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Nepherses Amat: inthe community
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Anarchists aren’t big on civilization either, in my experience. 😛
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Nepherses Amat: yes I agree Rhia
[2013/03/05 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: nobody is questioning that you learned stuff that you wouldn’t learn otherwise – and that’s actually the accusation I’m making :). The problem here is that you are biased, you don’t know what you could have learned if not education.
[2013/03/05 16:06]  Nepherses Amat: most ppl do not understand Anarchism
[2013/03/05 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn is bought to you today by Loriel hair color, for that daring red! (yes I read her blog about advertisements in SL!)
[2013/03/05 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2013/03/05 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: I stay away from isms, they limit thinking….. heh
[2013/03/05 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me will come up with a word that ends in ‘ism’ for Scarp’s belief
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Nepherses Amat: I like TONS of labels! and “isms” With enough of them I am described perfectly!
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: objectivism?
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: schism?
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: so Gwyn…would you say..
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: BahHumbugism
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): How about individualism? Individualists reject labels.
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: schools are obsolete?
[2013/03/05 16:07]  Nepherses Amat: but there is a marvelous documentary about Anarhism in America on You tub
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I was wondering if you asked that question, Extie,
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Labelrejectionism?
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because you imagien a future where everybody gets a chip oinserted in their heads
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Um, Gwyn has red hair on my viewer, but it’s a military cut
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so then schools would be obsolete, yes
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: Schools may be flawed, they may be even barely functional. but for those with limited economic resources, they are necessary.
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me points and wags her finger at Zo. ‘That’s it!’
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw sorry, Rhi 🙂
[2013/03/05 16:08]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): gosh Gwyn are there no chairs in Portugal
[2013/03/05 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: It’s very sad
[2013/03/05 16:09]  Nepherses Amat: phone sorry
[2013/03/05 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, luisa, they are… none who constrain my freedom of expression, though 😉
[2013/03/05 16:09]  Genevieve Lordhunter: schools allowed mothers to have built in daycare so she can go to work and government can collect more taxes
[2013/03/05 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *which
[2013/03/05 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yay, I zooped close enough that Gwyn’s hair rezzed; but I’m only seeing her lingerie now.
[2013/03/05 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is a great polish writer that wrote a lot about “labelrejectionism” – Gombrowicz. His arguably best book is Ferdydurke, and if you are wondering, the title doesn’t mean anything at all.
[2013/03/05 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi !
[2013/03/05 16:10]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): perhaps an anagram
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: We quickly decided it is only the system of education that might be obsolete. We shall always need schools but maybe their methods of teaching should change to reflect the 21st century with easy acess to information (and yes, soonish, brain machine interfaces)
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: Hasn’t anyone here been inspired to go in a new direction in life by a teacher at some point? Where is that with home kid on the internet?
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): From a distance, it just looks like your skirt is black and hiked up, Gwyn. Just so you know
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, for me, asking if schools are obsolete is like asking if roads are obsolete. I cannot imagine a future without either. So obviously I’m biased.,..
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Genevieve Lordhunter: because mothers no longer raise the kids, we need more cash to pay for all the men going to prison
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: YES Gwyn!
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me needs better meshed clothing 😛
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not saying that schools are “needed”
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Genevieve Lordhunter: it’s always give and take
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, Amazonian Indians don’t need them
[2013/03/05 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: luisa: no, it literally doesn’t mean anything, it’s just random syllables 🙂
[2013/03/05 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I don’t particularly wish to live in the middle of Amazonia and have a life expectancy of 40 years.
[2013/03/05 16:11]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): neither one can state “not needed”
[2013/03/05 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: and the great irony is that people have been trying to put meaning to it for a long time now 😀
[2013/03/05 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: you look gorgeous tonight 😉
[2013/03/05 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, there is this thing called the granny cloud. retired women spend an hour of their day educating kids in developing countries via skype. They could be the teachers who inspire kids to discover new things:)
[2013/03/05 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So both you Scarp and Gwynn can’t imagine people walking, hiking? I had a neighbor who hiked all the way from Crater Lake, Oregon to Sequoia, in California. Not possible in your views?
[2013/03/05 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: Where does the poor slum dwelling child find a way out of poverty? Through education. They can’t do it on their own.
[2013/03/05 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I know that’s off-topic hehe
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, I can certainly imagine that
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): She is very elegantly dressed, Gwynn; quite the professional.
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then why must there be roads?
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can imagine a world without roads, but it requires flying cars
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It doesn’t mean I’m interested in a civilization where that happens
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh good one, Ivy 😉
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Education via the web does not have to mean being educated alone.
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And if there need to be roads, why the interstate highway system that was created by Eisenhower?
[2013/03/05 16:12]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): /me puts “Ferdydurke” into a cup, shakes it, throwing letter onto the table reading d-u-e-…
[2013/03/05 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: So where does the poor person get the computer Extie?
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, which will be made possible once schools stop telling us that’s not possible?
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point is — sure, I can envision a civilization without comfort, without health systems, schools, roads, cars, and so forth. It’s certainly possible. After all, we humans lives a couple of million of years that way. Do I wish to go back? No.
[2013/03/05 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): I like this “cloud teaching approach” 😀
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Um, I know I’ve said this before, but have you heard of public libraries, Scarp?
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *lived
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: sort of
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Genevieve Lordhunter: with families becoming smaller, we have to prepare the little humans to become orphans
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: Yes Gwyn true
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: though I wouldn’t connect the two 🙂
[2013/03/05 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I’m fine with people wishing to live that way, of course
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, a lot of people still live that way
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Genevieve Lordhunter: education – in what we teach needs to change . . more coping skills
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: also if you know a poor person in Berlin that needs a computer – can take an old one from me
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, so you favor such things as the interstate highway system which is largely responsible for pollution and the destruction of the railways? I can push your analogies *all* day, if I want
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: From movementts like 100 dollar laptop which strive to produce laptops as cheap as possible. Or from Google who would probably give away their chromebooks (more human slaves inputting data into the almighty Google brain)
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Genevieve Lordhunter: many folks will find themselves completely alone by age 40 . . then they have 50+ years of time to figure out what to do with it
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: OH god, let’s not let this discussion turn into ‘government is bad’. That is so pointless.
[2013/03/05 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a bit more complex than that, Rhi. I’m fine with replacing all that things with better, more efficient, and less polluting ones
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As we’ve been doing for the past 200 years, albeit slowly
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): To say you can only think of a future with schools means that you think that people can’t provide for themselves.
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Can they? 🙂
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure a few can
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I hope this analogy gets back to the topic real soon, Gwyn and Rhi.
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I’m still boggled that you, Scarp, think the only way people can think or learn is through a Government agency
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But yes, I would wear that label, Rhi: No, I don’t think that people can provide for themselves.
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Genevieve Lordhunter: I believe the government is good in that it forces each man to live by law and not a slave to another human
[2013/03/05 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t even think that people can *think* for themselves.
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: do you think that, Scarp?
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: Every civilzation has a government. To think otherwise is some sort of mental game some people love to play.
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Genevieve Lordhunter: but folks will volunteer to be slaves, as isolation without coping skills will lead to suicide
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: why not Gwyn?
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: One thing I think I can pin down that’s a problem with today’s system is that it tries to keep everyone on the same track.
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Statistical evidence, Extie 😀
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Genevieve – actually, people on their own can be pretty efficient at executing law without government
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I see, Gwyn, so providing for one’s food, shelter, education has to be from forced labor monitored by a benevolent State? There is no other alternative?
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure there are!
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Many, in fact
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Differences in ability and motivation are to be reduced to the absolute minimum.
[2013/03/05 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: I cannot. For now I need my primary to think on my behalf. But humans…I believe they can think for themselves.
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Genevieve Lordhunter: I got my data from the falling population stats
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: No child left behind!
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Genevieve Lordhunter: many countries are now in negative growth
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Example: Somalia. The government there doesn’t exist; it’s the purest form of anarchy
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “No child left alone!”
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Genevieve Lordhunter: all children will be left behind . . ugh
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Albania: there is a Government, but who cares about it
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Genevieve Lordhunter: have to teach them to be isolated and alone – no one caring if they live or die, orphaned
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: that is a bit pessimistic, Gene.
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Ah, Somalia… My favorite real-world example of modern anarchy.
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Genevieve Lordhunter: and we should expect them to thrive and be happy
[2013/03/05 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: But even in somalia, the warlords exert control over their local areas and therefore form a government.
[2013/03/05 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So you say that Somalia is an example where people can’t live without force because there are many groups that force people to their side and not just one, Gwynn?
[2013/03/05 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s an example where people live (or, rather, die) without the “Need” of having a country-wide government, yes
[2013/03/05 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: Somalia is what happens if Libertarian idealists actually get what they want.
[2013/03/05 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the list goes on…. Afghanistan, Romenia, Pakistan
[2013/03/05 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: what has Somalia got to do with the future of the educational system?
[2013/03/05 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Because there is no actual government to stop them. Anarchy = rule by AK-47.
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Genevieve Lordhunter: without government you have no protection and no life saving services to keep your lonely existence alive
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Genevieve Lordhunter: I raised my child to become an orphan
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: you are sure there are absolutely no other factors included?
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Genevieve Lordhunter: she said thank you
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it was just an example that you can, indeed, have countries without governments controlling everything
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are plenty of real-world, contemporary examples
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I’d still take it over North Korea which is what happens if liberals and socialists get what they want
[2013/03/05 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: Without government, your Libertarian fantasies would evaporate quickly.
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well… I don’t think that they will “evaporate quickly”, Scarp,
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: so what, Gwyn? What is it to do with me topic?
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m just glad I don’t need the Government to tell me what to think, Scarp. Gwynn. You guys do. To each her own.
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Genevieve Lordhunter: without government and technology life becomes survival of the fittest and hard work
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Excuse me… Scarp, you seem to have confused libertarian with anarchist. Those are two entirely different things.
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: just that it means accepting the consequences of what it means
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Genevieve Lordhunter: ponder a bath once a month!
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Genevieve Lordhunter: no beauty !
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Government represses technology
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: So we are now reduced to ad hominem Rhi?
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me nods to Zo
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Genevieve Lordhunter: if money goes, all beauty goes
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, now we definitely need technology. And, of course, government IS a form of technology.
[2013/03/05 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, *I* need to tell *Government* what they should be doing 🙂 As said, I don’t believe in most people’s abilities of thinking for themselves 😉
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most people confuse both, Zo 😛 Sad, really
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, not ad hominem. The issue is whether we need a Government agency to help us think or learn, that we can’t do it without one. That implies just that.
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Genevieve Lordhunter: oh I expressly believe in people’s ability to think for self
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Genevieve Lordhunter: perhaps the issue is garbage was fed in and so garbage is coming out
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: why do you believe in the ability of government to listen and think about what you tell to it then?
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: What basis do you have for saying people do not think for themselves?
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: We have a lot of history to see what happens when there are no public schools. Let’s learn from those lessons.
[2013/03/05 16:21]  Genevieve Lordhunter: that is the problem of the teacher that wrote the lesson
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, my point is that we don’t NEED that, Rhi. If you’re willing to accept the consequences, then, sure, why not?
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And if we’re talking fallacies? Strawman, argument from intimidation, sneaking in assumptions under the label ‘fantasies’? My one to your zillions?
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: what does happen, Scarp?
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: as said, statistical evidence. Look at how people vote ㋡
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Genevieve Lordhunter: where there are no schools 45,000 women and children starve to death a day
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, OK.
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: What happens is feudalism, Extie.
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Genevieve Lordhunter: really nice way to keep population down because their is no birth control
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Genevieve Lordhunter: oh . .sighs their was wrong
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Genevieve Lordhunter: there
[2013/03/05 16:22]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): oh! school meals .. we did not talked about how the internet could serv a supper
[2013/03/05 16:22]  Nepherses Amat: back and I missed everything : (
[2013/03/05 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, we don’t need what? I’m arguing that we don’t need the Government to see our educational agenda; I cited as my model the growing homeschool movement. Paul Goodman points out that our biggest skill–language–is not taught by the Government.
[2013/03/05 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *set
[2013/03/05 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also like to point out Genevieve’s argument. Right now, where schools are being set up by organisations (not necessariuly “Government”) in developing countries, the death rate recedes.
[2013/03/05 16:23]  Genevieve Lordhunter: the extroverts will become savage without schools
[2013/03/05 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: show me one example where schools didn’t exist *and* people have/had access to internet and were relatively wealthy (let’s say no worse than mid-eastern europe)
[2013/03/05 16:23]  Genevieve Lordhunter: extroverts get dopamine from social interaction
[2013/03/05 16:23]  Genevieve Lordhunter: introverts get drained
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: we are not discussing whether schools are always obsolete under any conditions, but rather if they are obsolete *now*
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Genevieve Lordhunter: this is why public education does not work for 1/3rd
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Genevieve Lordhunter: only 1/3rd fail
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, Rhi, I’m sory, I wasn’t being clear myself. I’m fine with non-government-based schools
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Genevieve Lordhunter: lol ONLY
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I have no problem with school set up by organizations; in fact, that’s my point; people can teach themselves
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: Aha, see? Ivy you are saying wealthy. That is the point. Some people have no resources.
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Nepherses Amat: it would be nice to have small communities that taught how to live in many ways
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Genevieve Lordhunter: Rhi that is debated as many do not believe they choose what they will and will not learn
[2013/03/05 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Neph, that would be perfection. I see no reason why they should turn into rule by AK-47’s
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Genevieve Lordhunter: your grades reveal that truth
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Scarp’s got a point there. Currently, in the Western world for sure, non-government-based education requires MONEY.
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Nepherses Amat: frankly this discussion cannot make sense w/o revamping the whole culture
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Genevieve Lordhunter: in a class you have no interest to attend you most likely get a low grade
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: In what way is a failed nation with no schools a good model for a fourth-generation civilization with AGI robots, brain-machine interfaces and a Web much more capable than what we are used to?
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems to me that it’s all about centralization and standardization. Setting a curriculum and trying to get everyone through it on more-or-less the same time frame.
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Genevieve, so your point is that someone should come in and centralize their agenda?
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Public education means that everybody gets an education, even iuf it’s not “Perfect”, but at least it can be free or cheap
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Genevieve Lordhunter: choosing not to learn the subject occurs within
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, but not much. I taught a guy’s son, and they were living in the back on his truck.
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Genevieve Lordhunter: Japan has the highest test scores, they are #1 in the world last I checked, but they also have the highest suicide rate among teens
[2013/03/05 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: …in which schools as we knew them do not exist?
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And there was a family in LA who put their son through medical school by bringing in bottles and cans.
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I personally have nothing against standardization; look at how Ford figured out how that would improve everything — including customer satisfaction 🙂
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, but standardization of thought?
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Genevieve Lordhunter: the friendly zoo is with education
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Genevieve Lordhunter: without education can be seen clearly, compare a wild jungle to a friendly zoo
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: So let’s get all the poor people to spend more of their limited time collecting bottles and cans…
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well there is obviously a problem with that, Rhi, and I agree that’s an undesirable side-effect
[2013/03/05 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And there is a lot of “standardization” in the homeschool comuunity. They want math, science, history.
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if by poor you mean homeowners with doctors as sons, sure.
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Standarization has its drawbacks. It’s inflexible, and it can hold back those with the most potential while wasting resources on those who are resistant (purposefully or otherwise) to learning.
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Genevieve Lordhunter: homeschools have higher standards than public, they have to, it’s not free
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: If we have to have schools, I’d like them to teach – first and foremost, critical thinking. The rest is not so important.
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Nepherses Amat: that is if we continue with huge industrialize d society
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My point was not that we should give lots of money to poor people, it was that poor people can see to their children’s education–by themselves
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, one thing is asking, “are schools obsolete?” The other is asking “are the teaching programmes — the curricula — obsolete?” I would say that what is being taught is not adequate
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I would have loved what Ivy said to be the final words of this debate.
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *shouldn’t
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Nepherses Amat: well capitalism and gov do not want critical thinking!
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: hear, hear
[2013/03/05 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: How can one learn critical thinking when the home schooling parent is a religious zealot?
[2013/03/05 16:28]  Genevieve Lordhunter: very good Ivy my child learned that skill, in homeschool, cheating was not possible and so encouragment for the pupil to seek the answer for self was showing better learning
[2013/03/05 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or a fundamentalist ideologist, Scarp.
[2013/03/05 16:28]  Nepherses Amat: need community, systems approach
[2013/03/05 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that’s easy, Scarp, when you are taught to look at the flaws, the hidden assumptions, the bad logic in standard science text books. ::she smiled sweetly::
[2013/03/05 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2013/03/05 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): By ‘religous zealot’ you mean what? That they reject liberal secularism?
[2013/03/05 16:28]  Genevieve Lordhunter: I think Iceland has the #1 school on earth, they have no tests
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Nepherses Amat: test today sucked
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That implies that there is a monopoly of truth to the public schools
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. I thought it was Singapure, Genevieve 😀
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Genevieve Lordhunter: oh dear the screen is scrolling to fast I got caught on Zealot laughs
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: It does not imply that in the slightest Rhi.
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Genevieve Lordhunter: that Z gets me, puts me in a trance . . Zoro! LOL
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Wow, I just noticed that chair is eating Luisa. Somebody help her!
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Nepherses Amat: /me objects to the alpha textures that mess with her hair!
[2013/03/05 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: You say that Rhi but we have a Creationist on KurzweilAI who believes the Bible is literally true and evolution is bunk and nothing any of us says persuades him otherwise.
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): She’s fine on my screen, Zo
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And his views should be excluded by the Government, Extie?
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: Those seats have adjustment controls btw…..
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK final statements…Are schools obsolete?
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: yes!
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes 🙂
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Anyway, my alarm just went off, which means I have to do the impossible–teach without a school
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes!
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Genevieve Lordhunter: oh there are people attempting to prove the bible is not historical fact, I have seen a few shows already
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: Dunno!
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, Religion has no place in public schools.
[2013/03/05 16:30]  Nepherses Amat: YES and the whole western culture is!
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: take the culture, leave the tech intact, I don’t care 🙂
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, including the religion of secular humanism, Scarp
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Genevieve Lordhunter: I think all the worlds religions should be taught as knowledge of them
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Nepherses Amat: /me is too radical to exist
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Scarp Godenot: that is a religion? Who is the leader?
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Archaelogy used to be plagued with guys trying to “prove the Bible”.
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rule #1 of having a laggy computer: don’t turn the camera around to watch luisa!
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Genevieve Lordhunter: I enjoyed doing that homework with my daughter on all the worlds religions
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Genevieve Lordhunter: I learned so much!
[2013/03/05 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok my time is up!
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