Thinkers February 19 2013: Is there intrinsically-damaging knowledge?

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2013/02/19 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay 😀 Thanks for the warm welcome!
[2013/02/19 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: And today the topic for discussion is..(hehehe Gwyn)
[2013/02/19 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Is there such a thing as intrinsically-damaging knowledge?
[2013/02/19 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “There are some things Man was not meant to know.”
[2013/02/19 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes Evolution for Christians
[2013/02/19 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, basically that.
[2013/02/19 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So many SF stories.
[2013/02/19 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Is Art right?
[2013/02/19 15:34]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): Ignorance is bliss
[2013/02/19 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye. The knowledge that makes one believe in an intrinsically existing self, for instance, is intrinsically damaging 😉
[2013/02/19 15:34]  Paloma Porta: plenty of things men arent meant to know
[2013/02/19 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, first, you are talking about only some christians, and they teach their students the evolutionary paradigm, they just don’t make it into infallible dogma, like secular humanists do
[2013/02/19 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art would be right if she said: “Evolution for non-Roman-Catholic Christians”
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, not even then, Gwyn
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: well..what would it mean to be intrinsically damaging?
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (as well as many evangelist Christians who embraced evolution)
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: not for roman catholics, officially catholic doctrine embraces evolution
[2013/02/19 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I thinking that damaging knowledge is relative to how deeply held the information that it displaces.
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would mean that it would damage anyone, irrespectively of time and place, Extie
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Episcopalians, Anglicans, Evangilicals, I could go on and on, if you meake me
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: but how can knowledge do such a thing?
[2013/02/19 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Intrinsically damaging knowledge… How about the genome of the smallpox virus?
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Paloma Porta: One wonders what man-kind could know to make the Earth more of a mess than it is already -the cautionary tale is being lived ! (?)
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that would be too tough a criteria, Gwyn, would make the question trivial
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s what “Intrinsic” means 😀
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What about a device that could witness the past, anywhere, and since the past is 1 vsed ago…
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *seond
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. independent of any other conditions.
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *second
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: If you have a genome of a virus you have information on how to combat it. So…no sequencing a virus is not all bad.
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): more importantly, what does “damaging” mean?
[2013/02/19 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If it’s *dependent* on other conditions to be damaging, then it’s not intrinsically-damaging
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good question, Elle.
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What about Pierse Anthony’s Macroscope, which gave knowledge too advanced to budding civilizations, to destroy them?
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Paloma Porta: |That device already exists -it’s called consciousness….you just have to access it imho
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think knowledge can be bad..it is the use to which it is put which might be bad.
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: But if you destroyed it, then you’d *never* have to worry about combating it. It would be gone.
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: true Zo..
[2013/02/19 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hmmm I would say damaging would mean the ability to change the lives of ALL who learn it.
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tend to agree withyou, Extie, so that rules out intrinsically-damaging knowledge.
[2013/02/19 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Exactly, Zo
[2013/02/19 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Knowledge of when, exactly, you were going to die?
[2013/02/19 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: are we talking about true knowledge, or potentially untrue one? There are people who know, or claim so at least, that there is a God – that to, technically, is knowledge
[2013/02/19 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: too*
[2013/02/19 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: and I’m assuming that this change would be negative for them, using your definition, is that what you mean?
[2013/02/19 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: The knowledge that an asteroid would destroy the earth next month would be intrinsically damaging. … at least for a month… heh
[2013/02/19 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Anything Ivy. It need not be objectively true.
[2013/02/19 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because there is certainly knowledge thathas the ability to change the lives of ALL who learn it BUT only hs positive benefits.
[2013/02/19 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /m defies Ivy to define what “true knowledge” is 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, there’s an interesting question… Suppose you have a set of beliefs that form the basis of a stable and prosperous society, and then somebody comes along and disproves them?
[2013/02/19 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, my prejudice is that all knowledge is intrinsically good, but I’m willing to discuss the matter
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: what about time travel?
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe you mean, conventionally true knowlede: knowledge that is commonly held by a vast majority to be true.
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): We’ve got five years before the end… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73jambjm4yc
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, what if you have a set of beliefs that form the basis of a stable, prosperious society and someone comes along and proves them right, like in Asimov’s Nightfall
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: that might sound a bit weird, I mean knowledge that consists of the closest approximation of truth that scientific method can provide
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A very good question, Zo. History is full of those examples 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Paradigm shift!
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: rather than, yanno, anything else 😛
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I love that story, Rhi
[2013/02/19 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that’s like my example of the past viewing machine
[2013/02/19 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m from the school that all knowledge is provisional. So nothing intrinsic in knowledge, because it is never firm .
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: just what I meant hehe
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that the one in which night only comes every few thousand years?
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: that’s the true scientific spirit!
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, true, but that side steps the issue
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes,Extie 😀
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes.
[2013/02/19 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the issue here IS language
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve had religious people argue that their beliefs are beneficial to society… And I had to ask, should I believe them because they’re *beneficial* rather than because of evidence?
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can think of knowledge that is maybe emotionally scornful to somebody, but then same knowledge can be liberating or even uplifting for someone with a different perspective
[2013/02/19 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: ..and when it does the civilization sees stars and their cosmology and worldview built around it collapses?
[2013/02/19 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, well, there has been the notion of the Big Lie or the Benevolent Myth for thousands of years
[2013/02/19 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: According to Art’s definition, with which I happen to agree with, there cannot be any “Intrinsically-damaging knowledge” since all knowledge is, by her definition, provisional
[2013/02/19 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: thus it is not the knowledge in itself that is damaging (if getting upset about it can be considered damage) but rather own belief system combined with such knowledge
[2013/02/19 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: exactly — so it depends on the mind of who gets imparted with that knowledge — it’s not intrinsic to it
[2013/02/19 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, originally, it was, as they’ve never been in the dark, they grabbed any flame they could and ended up burning down their civilization
[2013/02/19 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me sagenods at Gwyn
[2013/02/19 15:43]  Paloma Porta: I am wondering if knowledge and damage are – oxymorons?…all knowledge seems desirable to me ? All we have is Human judgment – which is limited . Humanity needs a reality shift to access a better set of values,methinks
[2013/02/19 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very good point, Paloma 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What about knowledge of weaponized anthrax?
[2013/02/19 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: and yet most people would agree that some knowledge should be restricted..
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If you came across the formula for Captain Trips, should you publish it?
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because we “know” about it, Rhi, we can enactrules not to use it 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And who is Captain Trips and what formula did he invent? 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: All knowledge being desirable is debatable. Would you want to know the moment of your death in advance?
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: If there was such a thing as intrinsically damaging knowledge, so much as knowing it would be harmful, yes?
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That was the name people gave the super-flu in Stephen King’s The Stand
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Depends on how prepared one is, Art 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Assange, the Wikileaks guy, wouldn’t agree with that Extie. He seems quite comitted to the idea that secrecy on *any* subject is evil.
[2013/02/19 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So the formula would be to weaponize the flu
[2013/02/19 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Captain Trips?
[2013/02/19 15:45]  Paloma Porta: re anthrax….we have a population explosion here -humanity is becoming a destructive virus – to side on “more people=good” seems …selfish?
[2013/02/19 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I have to re.read The Stand — it’s been a decade since I read it 😛
[2013/02/19 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Trashcan man was my favourite character:)
[2013/02/19 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It referred to one of it’s symtoms–the runs
[2013/02/19 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s wrong in so many ways, Paloma.
[2013/02/19 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: So what is this knowledge damaging? One’s beliefs and prejudices or one’s expectations?
[2013/02/19 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I+m reminded of Monty Python’s “Killing Joke” sketch… 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, right, should the killing joke be revealed? What if Colbert got ahold of it?
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Paloma Porta: dont rem the killing joke
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the “Killing Joke” is obviously flawed since it assumes that its power to kill is intrinsic 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: I like the german attempt: There were two peanuts and one of them was a satled..peanut.
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seriously, we censor or suppress knowledge all the time, and Francis bacon thought scientists should dole out knowledge as they thought mankind was ready
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *giggles*
[2013/02/19 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s a lot of information that could be dangerous in the hands of some crazed person…. but I don’t think that meets the standard of “inherently” damaging.
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: and why should scientists be goodjudges of that? 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That standard might be too high to be useful
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh..knowledge damaging to anybody irrespective of religion, or whatever.
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, you notice no one took Bacon up on that
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Hi Pete)
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Pete Keystrel: good day.
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The founding fathers wrote into the Constitution that the federal government was to promote science
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well noticed, Rhi 😉
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Pete Keystrel: sorry for the lateness
[2013/02/19 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Do we extend ‘everybody’ outside of humanity to other intelligences in the universe?
[2013/02/19 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Pete!
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Paloma Porta: Killing humans is not “wrong” all the time -depends if yr an endangered species or not! Its harsh – but a humanty is sacred view might be mollified?
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: But I think Art may have come up with an example. Knowing the time and place of your own death.
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I most certainly would, Art…. wherever or whatever they are 😉
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Pete:)
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Eh, hem, that was me, Extie. But I’ll forgive you if you say something nice about my new skin and feet
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Pete Keystrel: hi all
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: that still is subjective, there might be people who would be happy to know when they die as it would help them plan for it better
[2013/02/19 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Death row inmates might be in this position..
[2013/02/19 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not even that kind of knowledge is ‘inherently damaging’, Extie, since there are people who don+t have any issue with that. And others even set thir own time of death.
[2013/02/19 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Ivy said:)
[2013/02/19 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: If we extend knowledge far enough outward, the phrase intrinsicly damaging loses all meaning. So the answer to the question is no.
[2013/02/19 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: yes but they can change their plans:)
[2013/02/19 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Strange, I’m unusually agreeing with a Ivy a lot today, and we’re not even talking techie things.
[2013/02/19 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It would wreck the life insurance industry, though, which is why in Heinlein’s first story, they sent out a hit man to kill the guy who figured out how to predict that. He, of course, knew they would, and just waited for them on the day of his death.
[2013/02/19 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most people who heave learned about their time of death DID change their plans, Extie 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha
[2013/02/19 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: what about an appointment with death that nothing could prevent? Not even a court of justice?
[2013/02/19 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dang, I never read that story, Ri. 😀
[2013/02/19 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s his very first, I think it’s called Timeline
[2013/02/19 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Not sure, though
[2013/02/19 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we can agree that knowledge can be damaging, but it is completely relative to the condition of mind of the learner.
[2013/02/19 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: who is ‘he’?
[2013/02/19 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: the way I imagine intrinsically damaging knowledge: you tell an evangelican christian that Jesus was a hoax, and he gets a stroke!
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: No, he just would not believe you.
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What I meant, Extie, is that if you have the time and place of that appointment in your agenda, you will not make any plans for the day after 😉 but rather focus on new plans until that day comes.
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Exactly.
[2013/02/19 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ivy, that is damaging but only relatively damaging.
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I would put down that I must pay my bills–the day after
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Paloma Porta: death is science – and unproven inasmuch as a life after death has compelling eveidence to support it – what if nobody’s essence (?) actually dies -might that change peoples’ views??
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ivy — you can tell that as much as you wish, they won’t believe you anyway.
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Like the christian who said ‘I have read the arguments for evolution and it is all very persuasive, but I still do not believe it’.
[2013/02/19 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Credo quio absurdum est
[2013/02/19 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I’d certainly overcharge my credit cards 😉
[2013/02/19 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: belief is a choice that doesn’t rely on evidence, so that Christian is at least consistent.
[2013/02/19 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: they don’t have to believe, it might be the knowledge that someone even thinks that Jesus was a hoax that caused the stroke
[2013/02/19 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: It is not compelling enough, Paloma. Although that annecdote about the dentures is intruiging.
[2013/02/19 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, they know there are heretics, unbelievers, and fools in the world, so why should it?
[2013/02/19 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: jesus is a stand alone complex: copies that have no original:)
[2013/02/19 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, there are plenty of those around 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Although I think there are films with that plot–the Church is hiding proof that Jesus didn’t exist.
[2013/02/19 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: it’s just my imagined concept of what I would consider to be valid “damaging” in the context of the discussion
[2013/02/19 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m curious now about the anecdote about dentures…
[2013/02/19 15:54]  Paloma Porta: Theres loads of esearch been done on reincarnation loads and loads of it -some of it acknowledged by the AMA- my point is human judgment – is it grounded on a correct “reality” to decide whats good and bad knowlrdge?
[2013/02/19 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I read a story once where a hard boiled detective is hired this woman, “she’s not quite as beautiful as the Dame in the Eye of God” to get her father back. Seems he definitively disproved Hegel, and as all of Marxism is based on that, the Communists were planning to kill him
[2013/02/19 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the Church is already hiding proof that Jesus hasn’t ressurected in the flesh, but actually displayed something far more wonderful — like the Turim Shroud
[2013/02/19 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we are obliged to throw out the word intrinsic in this argument. For many reasons, one of which is since language is invented. The word intrinsic cannot be intrinsic…. heh
[2013/02/19 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Guy has a heart attack and is clinically dead. His dentures are removed and put in a draw (this is while his brain is not functioning). When he comes around he says to the doctor, ‘oh, you are the one who put my dewntures in that draw’.
[2013/02/19 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Paloma: that’s the whole point ofconventional reality: defining what most of us agree, by commo sense, to be real
[2013/02/19 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: hello TR:)
[2013/02/19 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh nice one, Extie 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: you don’t have to go that far, seen any second coming? According to Jesus he was supposed to come back during the life of saint Peter
[2013/02/19 15:55]  TR Amat: Hi
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, according to the half-analphabet guys who spread that story 😉
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, actually, he said, “the next generation.” That could be the next generation of man. “Maybe it was the time of year, or maybe the Time of Man…”
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, yes, which makes it even better – they couldn’t eve cover the bullshit 😀
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: even*
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bayme it was Star Trek: The Next generation
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Paloma Porta: Common sense of flies is “Eat poo – a hundred million of us cannot be wrong”
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Maybe
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Make it so!
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Paloma
[2013/02/19 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye Aye, cap’n, madam.
[2013/02/19 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is good common sense….. for flies.
[2013/02/19 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so.
[2013/02/19 15:57]  TR Amat: I blame the Klingons…
[2013/02/19 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: (Extie believes there is only one real Star Trek, and it is Kirk’s!)
[2013/02/19 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Kirk met Picard, though, Extie, so that validates TNG
[2013/02/19 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We all have deluded beliefs ;)hehe
[2013/02/19 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Maybe not Deep Space 9 and Voyager.
[2013/02/19 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m a follower of Jean Luc et al… haha
[2013/02/19 15:58]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): The Bible considers knowledge itself to be intrinsically damaging. It is the central theme of the book of Genesis. One needn’t be a Christian to sympathize with the author’s sense of tragedy.
[2013/02/19 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jean Luc is cool.
[2013/02/19 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Gah, you mean Star Trek: Generations? Ugh!
[2013/02/19 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, it was the knowledge of good and evil, but only when served with the fruit of the tree of life that was damaging
[2013/02/19 15:58]  TR Amat: “The Truth Will Set You Mad”? 🙂
[2013/02/19 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Funny, Elle whenever I see a comment from you, I think it’s a trap! haha
[2013/02/19 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Not just the Bible. I believe Pandora’s box is pretty much the same morality tale?
[2013/02/19 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, half of Genesis, anyway, Elle. On the first part, God actually gives Adam the task t figure out for himself all the names of animals and plants. So Adam’s second task was to become a scientist.
[2013/02/19 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “A little knowledge will inclineth against a belief in God; a lot will inclineth toward a belief in God.”
[2013/02/19 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, nice quote. Who said that?
[2013/02/19 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: I like the word Inclineth
[2013/02/19 15:59]  Paloma Porta: I imply we might be the “flies” of thinkers in the Universe – but I doubt it – I just see a longer track of time maybe ,with or without this ” precious humanity”.
[2013/02/19 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think it was in Ecclesastes, who is usually said to be Solomon
[2013/02/19 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Adam was such a tool, he ate from the tree of knowledge, but forgot to eat from the tree of life first *which he was not forbidden to do!*
[2013/02/19 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, even nicer then 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: so he died not even living up to 1000 years
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought it was Eve?
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: *fool you men? 😉
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *mean
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: grr
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: no, I actually mean tool 😀
[2013/02/19 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Was Adam hot? And did he have ripped abs? Enquiring minds want to know.
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: slow computer today, it its up my words
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Eve got the idea and asked Adam who said, “Guy, we’ll get into trouble.” But she persuaded him anyway–and this was before he knew she was naked.
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: well, we know he had a ripped rib
[2013/02/19 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: har
[2013/02/19 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: hot, yes, perhaps, but lacking in the rib department.
[2013/02/19 16:01]  TR Amat: If the knowledge is sufficiently intrinsicly dangerous, maybe no one has survived learning it to report back?
[2013/02/19 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: good one TR! heh
[2013/02/19 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: that’s a perverse conspiracytheory 🙂 hehe
[2013/02/19 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very good 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘stand back, I am not sure how big it is gonna get’: Adam’s words upon seeing Eve was naked for the first time.
[2013/02/19 16:01]  TR Amat: How Interest! Ik! 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, yeah, I think that was addressed in Macroscope. No, some knew abut the knowledge and tried to stop it
[2013/02/19 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me has to put Macroscope on her Amazon wish list
[2013/02/19 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: To ‘know’ a black hole is to never be able to report about it.
[2013/02/19 16:02]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): Tonight on Thinkers: discussions of the red pill
[2013/02/19 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me just has purple and orange pills
[2013/02/19 16:02]  TR Amat: I ant the half-red, half-blue pill…
[2013/02/19 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: purple= red AND blue
[2013/02/19 16:02]  TR Amat: want*
[2013/02/19 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me awaits the inevitable solipsism discussion
[2013/02/19 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Ivy
[2013/02/19 16:02]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): I remember reading that a zebra, even minutes after having escaped the jaws of a lion, experiences no general anxiety about the future. (How this was determined would seem to be an interesting read in itself.)
[2013/02/19 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: Which one makes you taller?
[2013/02/19 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Ever notice how Morpheus has told Neo what the matrix is just before telling him ‘nobody can be told what the matrix is’?
[2013/02/19 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Elle, I’d be interested in knowing how they figured that out 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:03]  Pete Keystrel: 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:03]  TR Amat: The solipcists are obviously all just examining their own navels. 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:03]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): Me too
[2013/02/19 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No! I haven’t noticed that, Extie!
[2013/02/19 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: That Morpheus is the tricky one….
[2013/02/19 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: he meant FROM THAT MOMENT ON, mkay?
[2013/02/19 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaaah
[2013/02/19 16:04]  Ella Verhoeven (balljointdoll): so the zebra experiences no anxiety in the future when they are bitten by a lion and escape? What does that mean? Do animals think in terms of the future like we do?
[2013/02/19 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘the matrix is all around is..it is a prison you canot see or hear ortaste or touch. A prison..for your mind’.
[2013/02/19 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, oh, Zo crashed; do you think she *knew* too much?
[2013/02/19 16:04]  TR Amat: The Matrix was a dangerous as the public could tolerate, and no more? 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:04]  TR Amat: was as*
[2013/02/19 16:04]  Paloma Porta: Well there is knowledge without thought – this is my experience – and this knowledge is hard to explain (the matrix reference)
[2013/02/19 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Thinking about the future is only done by referring to memory. INteresting paradox.
[2013/02/19 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe the ever present danger is easier to handle than one that is unprecedented?
[2013/02/19 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: hard to tell Emma, it’s a common perception that lower animals aren’t aware of own mortality
[2013/02/19 16:05]  TR Amat: Almost all perceptions refers to the memory of past experiences…
[2013/02/19 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Remembering the Future; now there’s a title for an SF story
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I question that ‘perception,’ Ivy
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very true, Paloma: the hardest kind of knowledge is the one that cannot be expressed with words.
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: The possibility of being eaten by lions may be for Zebra what the possibility of dying in a road traffic accident is for humans? It could happen any day but we do not worry about it too much.
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: so do I, actually
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like, for instance, the experience of eating chocolate 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Paloma Porta: Everything is here now -lol–time is ann idea- lol – but I am getting into Guru stuff
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My perceptions are of imnmediate objects; my memory is of past perceptions.
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): Now if we were able to engineer a zebra with the knowledge sufficient to generate a sense of anxiety… would that be intrinsically damaging? Natural selection suggests that zebras thrive as non-anxious creatures
[2013/02/19 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wisely @ Rhi
[2013/02/19 16:06]  TR Amat: Maybe some knowledge is so dangerous it’s autimatically filtered out from perception – because in humans that didn’t do that, they didn’t survive to reproduce?
[2013/02/19 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Paloma: or into Einstein.
[2013/02/19 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.
[2013/02/19 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the point is that anything to do with the future is only speculation in the present.
[2013/02/19 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Just thought I’d mention that
[2013/02/19 16:07]  TR Amat: Or My Little Ponies? 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: our brains do come with a mechanism that will reject ideas conflicting with inner integrity, even if everything points that those ideas are true
[2013/02/19 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: in that case, we would not be able to talk about inherently dangerousknowledge, since it would always be filtered out.
[2013/02/19 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, you mean like the perception of the Shadow Beings?
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Einstein zebra could resolve the question: Are you black with white stripes or white with black stripes?
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: [CENSORED]. See. There was one of those thoughts.
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think knowledge is only filtered out by paradigms
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, they will have segregation, racism, the whole smear, as soon as they ask that
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Paloma Porta: Memory is not in the past -nothing is – everything is in this moment – there is only this moment – which means time is an idea not a reality -which means knowledge might be viewed differently
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have to explain that better, Rhi. It doesn’t grok.
[2013/02/19 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think all mammals have some sort of memory sytems. That is how learning happens.
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Which, Gwyn?
[2013/02/19 16:08]  TR Amat: We could still talk about inherrently dangerous knowledge in an abstract theoretical way…
[2013/02/19 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “knowledge is only filtered by paradigms”
[2013/02/19 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: sometimes it is shown to be part of a larger picture. Einsteiun did not disprove Newton so much as show how his theory of gravity is correct in some instances.
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: yes, and it cannot be “magic stuff”. Even ants learn… even if that happens collectively.
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well, people were talking about knowledge we don’t see–well, the examples I think of when I think of that are star nurseries, coelecanths, and ball lightening; even though there were report after report, scientists refused to believe in them until they could fit it into their paradigms–the dominant theories of the time
[2013/02/19 16:10]  TR Amat: Meta thinking…
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, right! Ok, I get you now, Rhi.
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Are fables like the tree of knowledge and pandora’s box aknowledging that such knowledge can exist in principle?
[2013/02/19 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think I have concluded from is for my thinking that dangerous knowledge is completely dependent on its interaction with the motivations of the perceiver of that knowledge…
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Paloma Porta: The Earth is the centre of the Universe as everyone knows -oh -they changed that didnt they?
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I couldn’t have put it better myself, Art 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Paloma
[2013/02/19 16:10]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): They demonstrate that the question has been asked before
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: /me wants knowledge that, when inserted into someone else’s mind will work as a rootkit
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The tree of knowledge was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A particular kind of knowledge. Adam and Eve were innocent before they ate of that tree, then they became filled with shame, fear, all sorts of things
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy! lol
[2013/02/19 16:11]  TR Amat: Epigenetic changes are a sort of memory. So, arguably, and DNA genetic changes…
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It wasn’t knowledsge of auto mechanics that was forbidden them
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): Inception, Ivy
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: yup!
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually I know about some knowledge that works like that, bu, alas, it doesn’t work on *everybody*
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Pete Keystrel: okay folks, i need to go. I was hoping that this would be voice….. have a lovely, enlightening day. Lag is making it next to impossible to get anything from this as the chat is not coming thru chronologically. 😦
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: If the universe extends infinitely in all directions then I guess we are at the centre, just as every other point can claim to be:)
[2013/02/19 16:11]  TR Amat: So, are you familiar with the Langford Visual Hack? 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Pete Keystrel: bye
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes
[2013/02/19 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Pete, sorry to hear that.
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Even with no lag this would still border on chaos.
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, SL makes you realize that cause can come after effect
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry about tha, Pete
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Paloma Porta: Extropia – this is only one of the infinite Universes -hehe
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi 😉
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, border on chaos? I’ve already forgiven you about mistaking my remark for one of Art’s; it’s time to move on
[2013/02/19 16:12]  Pete Keystrel: yes, A great discussion rendered useless for me. Maybe if voice discussions are ever heldi would be able to offer something x
[2013/02/19 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Not on my watch:)
[2013/02/19 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, you want chaos, Pete? Try voice discussions in philosophy
[2013/02/19 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not here, Pete. We’ve survived since March 2004 without voice… 😛
[2013/02/19 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Rhi
[2013/02/19 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Rhiannon. The nature of Good and Evil vs Good and Bad is a very interesting part of philosophy. For bad to morph to Evil requires a set of rules to be violated and a definition of that violation to fit the Evil category. Nietzche is good on this topic btw…..
[2013/02/19 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: One thing that irks me about SL. On the old text-based MUCKs we sometimes had lag bubbles, but conversations never came through out-of-order.
[2013/02/19 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Chaos brought to heel by Big Egos
[2013/02/19 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.Good point, Zo. Interesting, actually.
[2013/02/19 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, I was looking for what art had said that someone responded to, couldn’t find it, then it finally showed up
[2013/02/19 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Made perfect sense, then
[2013/02/19 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders if the textbased MUCKs use UDP or TCP streams.
[2013/02/19 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: old text-based MUCKs didn’t have chat range
[2013/02/19 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: blecccchhhhh! I just learned that you can only consume just so much cinnamon tea…. heh
[2013/02/19 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: so anyway…the topic..
[2013/02/19 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is drinking apple & cinnamon tea too!
[2013/02/19 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Twin souls! Yay!
[2013/02/19 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: wooooot!
[2013/02/19 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: so it’s essentially an equivalent of running while(true){} in firefox?
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn and Art: Seperated at birth.
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, what does that make me, Extie; since Gwyn is obviously my alt
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: I should know, being their long lost mom and all.
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Paloma Porta: shall we vote on the intrinsic knowledge thingie?
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gosh, family is ever so complicated 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: alternative universes!
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Paloma. If we have to VOTE on it, ten it surely cannot be intrinsic
[2013/02/19 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah is everyone done with that topic?
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *then
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Apparently, Extie
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Elle Verhoeven (trap): A humble suggestion from a newcomer: Perhaps the topic could be rephrased as an assertion, in the Oxford debate style.
[2013/02/19 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, intrinsic…. bah humbug
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: We can move on to that thing about..SL…What Zo and Gwyn were talking about.
[2013/02/19 16:17]  TR Amat: I thought Rhi was my alt, but in a future life? 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You mean “Resolved: there is intrinsically bad knowledge” That sort of thing?
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d be fine with some definition of “mostly damaging knowledge”
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, I remember that
[2013/02/19 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: like in “Earth: Mostly Harmless” 🙂
[2013/02/19 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, sure there are types of knowledge that are “mostly harmful”
[2013/02/19 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh…
[2013/02/19 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: I need to say..
[2013/02/19 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: MY TIME IS UP!
[2013/02/19 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: !!
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