Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers! 2013!
[2013/01/01 15:31] Morgaine Dinova: Happy New Year to you all!!!!
[2013/01/01 15:31] Extropia DaSilva: This week the topic for discussion is…GUNS: WHO NEEDS THEM?
[2013/01/01 15:31] Ivy Sunkiller: gangsters!
[2013/01/01 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: Hunters
[2013/01/01 15:32] Ed Urvile: I need them.
[2013/01/01 15:32] Ivy Sunkiller: ever tried to rob someone without a weapon? it’s crazy
[2013/01/01 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: squirt guns just aren’t adequate
[2013/01/01 15:32] Morgaine Dinova: All politicians need them, if they do not represent their constituents. In the head.
[2013/01/01 15:32] Extropia DaSilva: Sounds easier to me. If I were a robber, I would rather rob somebody withour a weapon rather than somebody who as armed.
[2013/01/01 15:32] Zobeid Zuma: We’re flailing here, Extie… Give us something to work with!
[2013/01/01 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: The argument of the Right, is that guns are needed to join the next revolution when the government destroys their rights….
[2013/01/01 15:33] Ed Urvile: Connecticut, where the school shooting took place, has some pretty strict gun control laws.
[2013/01/01 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: There are a lot of things you could possibly do with guns, but as far as *need* goes, it seems to largely be about self-defense.
[2013/01/01 15:33] Ivy Sunkiller: that’s probably why the shooter’s mom had a full automatic rifle at home? 😀
[2013/01/01 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: Well should gun control be further restricted?
[2013/01/01 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: She did not have a fully automatic rifle, Ivy.
[2013/01/01 15:34] Ed Urvile: ArtCrash Exonar: That argument has some validity. Obama just might declare martial law.
[2013/01/01 15:34] Ivy Sunkiller: what was it then?
[2013/01/01 15:34] Ivy Sunkiller: submachine?
[2013/01/01 15:34] Ivy Sunkiller: I didn’t read too much into it
[2013/01/01 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: Obama declaring martial law is delusional.
[2013/01/01 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: It was a semi-automatic rifle. Full autos are heavily heavily restricted in the USA.
[2013/01/01 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: does it matter what kind of gun it was?
[2013/01/01 15:34] Ivy Sunkiller: yes
[2013/01/01 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: It might matter…
[2013/01/01 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: in what way?
[2013/01/01 15:35] Ed Urvile: During the Rodney King riots, a lot of the Korean grocers in South Central LA had assault weaons. Those weapons saved many of them.
[2013/01/01 15:35] Ivy Sunkiller: if he had a weapon with smaller clip he would kill less kids
[2013/01/01 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: They did not have “assault weapons”, Ed. That’s a fake term invented by the anti-gun faction to describe whatever type of ugly-looking weapon they’re currently trying to ban.
[2013/01/01 15:35] Morgaine Dinova: I live in the UK, and we have very strict laws about firearm possession (just clubs, farmers, etc). And I’ve never possessed a gun, nor want one. But I very strongly support the US position on firearms in most states. It’s a mistake that only criminals can have such power.
[2013/01/01 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: You mean, since we cannot un invent the gun, it is better for everybody to be armed?
[2013/01/01 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: I think if you want evidence that gun control decreases gun deaths, it is right there with gun control countries crime statistics. But beyond that issue. The Right says that is the price to be paid for the potential of needing guns for the upcoming local militias that will be created when needed.
[2013/01/01 15:36] Ed Urvile: I was amused by the rioters in the recent London riots. They broke into the shoe stores, but they left the book stores alone.
[2013/01/01 15:36] Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve read some statistics, in Switzerland where you get a gun home after (mandatory afaik?) army training there were 45 guns per 100 people, in US it’s 88 or so per 100
[2013/01/01 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: Ari is leaving us, everybody, so wave goodbye:)
[2013/01/01 15:36] Ivy Sunkiller: /me waves goodbye to Ari!
[2013/01/01 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: bye Ari love.
[2013/01/01 15:37] Aeni Silvercloud: bye!
[2013/01/01 15:37] Morgaine Dinova: Bye bye Ari, take care, and have a great start to 2013 🙂
[2013/01/01 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: That’s about it, Extie. At least in the USA. There are so many millions in circulation, and so many people determined to keep them, they aren’t going away.
[2013/01/01 15:37] Ari (arisia.vita): with regrets, but in the hope of seeing you all again soon
[2013/01/01 15:37] Chraeloos: Bye Ari, take good care 🙂
[2013/01/01 15:37] Ed Urvile: We can be like Red China. The Chonese government can confiscate people’s guns. It can also confiscate everything else, including land.
[2013/01/01 15:37] Ari (arisia.vita): keep smiling!
[2013/01/01 15:37] ArtCrash Exonar: Ivy, Switzerland also has the highest Suicide by gun rates as well.
[2013/01/01 15:37] Ivy Sunkiller: US has higher death by guns rate though
[2013/01/01 15:38] Ed Urvile: Hitler did not invade Switzerland because the Swiss were armed to the teeth.
[2013/01/01 15:38] Ivy Sunkiller: it has over 10 times higher rate of death by guns than Germany, and over 40 times higher rate than Poland or Netherlands
[2013/01/01 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: There’s also a moral argument that says, people have a right of self-defense. But having a right and being denied the means, is a contradiction.
[2013/01/01 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: I would submit: Poverty leads to Crime. Crime gets more violent when guns are easy to get. Maybe the solution is to attack Poverty.
[2013/01/01 15:38] Morgaine Dinova: Whether the death rate is hiher or lower with guns is completely immaterial. If that mattered, just ban cars. Miracle, deaths decrease one hundred fold!
[2013/01/01 15:39] Ivy Sunkiller: it means what it means Morgaine, nothing more, nothing less
[2013/01/01 15:39] Ed Urvile: If poverty leads to crime, then you can eliminate crime by throwing money at it. How has tha been working out?
[2013/01/01 15:40] Ivy Sunkiller: also if poverty was a factor here, then Poland should seriously be in the lead out of the 4 countries I listed
[2013/01/01 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: I find it hard to argue with the old saying ‘outlaw guns and only outlaws are armed’.
[2013/01/01 15:40] Morgaine Dinova: Ed: It’s never been done. In the US at least, money has only ever been siphoned out of the poor
[2013/01/01 15:40] Zobeid Zuma: I’ve been thinking a lot about this, though… And I do think the argument for banning certain classes of firearms is murkier. We already effectively ban machineguns. It might be possible to make an argument for restricting semi-autos….
[2013/01/01 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: Ed are you under the illusion that the US deals with poverty in any but the most primitive and basic ways?
[2013/01/01 15:40] Kimiko Yiyuan: I did not want to say anything today but the thing about Hitler not attacking Switzerland because they were so armes by the teeth is totally bogus gun lobby talk.Just wanted to mention that.
[2013/01/01 15:40] Ed Urvile: Morgaine Dinova: Eliminating cars could increase the death toll. It would compel white people to walk through black neighborhoods at nght.
[2013/01/01 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: Poverty is dealt with by people having more money from their jobs.
[2013/01/01 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: you mean decrease the death tol?
[2013/01/01 15:41] Morgaine Dinova: Zobeid: I agree there. I don;t see a bazooka or a tank as “personal defense”, nor an automatic rifle. But pistols of all types I believe to be personal defense.
[2013/01/01 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: If you had a time machine, and you could go back to… let’s say, 1980…. It might have been possible to make a ban on semi-autos work. Because they weren’t mainstream the way they are now.
[2013/01/01 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: Because in those days even police typically had a revolver, and maybe a pump shotgun in the patrol car.
[2013/01/01 15:42] Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t see how anything bigger than a pistol is a self defense weapon really, unless you mean self defense from a bear or something
[2013/01/01 15:42] Ivy Sunkiller: I can’t really picture a scenario in my head where unpacking a rifle would be practical while I’m getting robbed
[2013/01/01 15:43] Morgaine Dinova: “Death toll” is meaningless. You have to consider which deaths. For example, if 100,000 lawyers were killed, would society be better off or worse? Think about it seriously.
[2013/01/01 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: But what counts as reasonable defense? If it is reasonable that you might face a burgler armed with an AK47 is a handgun sufficient?
[2013/01/01 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: The Right is obsessed with weapons as a means of defence from government. That is the real issue in the USA.
[2013/01/01 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: A light rifle, like a carbine, is great for home defense. You just can’t carry it around with you.
[2013/01/01 15:43] Ed Urvile: Charlton Heston said that the Bill of Rights is a package deal. If you lose one, you lose them all.
[2013/01/01 15:44] Ivy Sunkiller: I’d have to see it to believe it Zo, and I’m not trying to be snarky here 🙂
[2013/01/01 15:44] ArtCrash Exonar: So What about the Tenth Amendment then Ed? That one seems not to appeal to the Right.
[2013/01/01 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: How come? Are they mutually supporting or something?
[2013/01/01 15:44] Ivy Sunkiller: also are we talking about guns or about US law?
[2013/01/01 15:44] Ed Urvile: ArtCrash Exonar: When there is evidence of blatant electoral fraud, then it makes sense for the citizenry to be armed.
[2013/01/01 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: We can talk about US law if you all want to.
[2013/01/01 15:44] Ivy Sunkiller: because, frankly, I don’t care about US constitution at all
[2013/01/01 15:45] Morgaine Dinova: The point about pistols in houses is that the burglar can no longer enter with impunity. The meek little granny can kill him in a blink of an eye. The playing field is levelled.
[2013/01/01 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see why you’d doubt this, Ivy. A carbine is much easier to handle effectively than a pistol. The skill of shooting a handgun (and hitting anything) is a lot more difficult.
[2013/01/01 15:45] Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: it’s not about handling, it’s about access to the weapon when you need it
[2013/01/01 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: But you would need to know how to handle it.
[2013/01/01 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: Well, I don’t get it.
[2013/01/01 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: The 10th Amendment to the US constitution is the one that says all the provisions of the constitution apply to the States as well as the Federal Government. This is what the civil war was fought over. So called States Rights..
[2013/01/01 15:46] Ivy Sunkiller: you wake up at 3 am with a robber in your house, surely a pistol next to bed is more handy than a rifle in safe or something
[2013/01/01 15:46] Morgaine Dinova: Extie: It’s “academic” in the rest of the world. Only in the US is this discussion non-hypothetical.
[2013/01/01 15:46] Zobeid Zuma: That’s not exactly what the Civil War was fought over….
[2013/01/01 15:46] Kimiko Yiyuan: There must be some stupid burglars around. I thought burglars prefer to come when nobody is at home.
[2013/01/01 15:46] ArtCrash Exonar: Partially
[2013/01/01 15:46] Zobeid Zuma: Um… Am I supposed to be keeping my rifle in a safe?
[2013/01/01 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: good point Kimiko.
[2013/01/01 15:46] Ed Urvile: Kimiko Yiyuan: In the UK burglars bread into houses even whe people are there.
[2013/01/01 15:47] Ivy Sunkiller: well if nobody is at home then talking about any kind of gun in house is irrelevant
[2013/01/01 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: BTW, did you all see the movie Lincoln? It is very excellent. I recommend it.
[2013/01/01 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: Ok maybe we should stick to these school masacres. What might prevent another one?
[2013/01/01 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: Until we get Portal Turrets, Ivy! 😀
[2013/01/01 15:47] Ivy Sunkiller: 😀
[2013/01/01 15:47] Ed Urvile: Extropia DaSilva: alloing teachers to carry firearms is a start.
[2013/01/01 15:47] Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: culture change
[2013/01/01 15:47] ArtCrash Exonar: I know what would prevent massacres totally. And that is all media deciding not to cover them at all. Then they would go away.
[2013/01/01 15:47] Morgaine Dinova: School massacres are not done by criminals. They’re done by loons. The problem there is medical, not social.
[2013/01/01 15:48] Extropia DaSilva: You mean, to prevent Herostratus Syndrome, Art?
[2013/01/01 15:48] ArtCrash Exonar: Massacres are about aggrandizement of the perpetrator. A show of power of a powerless person.
[2013/01/01 15:48] Zobeid Zuma: I can’t think of any particularly good solution….
[2013/01/01 15:48] Ivy Sunkiller: there would be no shooting if the loons didn’t have access to weapons
[2013/01/01 15:49] Kimiko Yiyuan: That would be valid only for those that seek attantion with what they do Art. Or did you mean it like “if a tree drops and nobody hears about it, then nothing has happened”?
[2013/01/01 15:49] Kimiko Yiyuan: Not every loony wants attention.
[2013/01/01 15:49] ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Ivy you have a point. At the same time someone in China did a similar attack with a knife and no one was killed and the guy subdued.
[2013/01/01 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: I do not think anybody intends to give loons weapons.
[2013/01/01 15:49] Zobeid Zuma: Don’t they? It’s hard to find exceptions….
[2013/01/01 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: Well by definition you would not find the loons who do not seek publicity.
[2013/01/01 15:50] Morgaine Dinova: Loons or criminals can always get access to weapons. Or to a can of gasoline. Would anyone feel happier if a class of children were shut in a room and srpayed with fuel? I don’t think so. Guns are not the problem.
[2013/01/01 15:50] ArtCrash Exonar: My state is totally loony about guns. They want everyone to have a concealed weapon.
[2013/01/01 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: YOu mean, like a gun is just a tool?
[2013/01/01 15:51] Ivy Sunkiller: it seems to be the problem isn’t really about legislation but about mentality and, again, culture
[2013/01/01 15:51] Morgaine Dinova: A gun is no different to a can of gasoline. You or I would not use them for evil. Others might.
[2013/01/01 15:51] Zobeid Zuma: This is why you could argue for a ban on semi-autos… Because the massacre was carried out so quickly. The police arrived on the seen *very* quickly, but all the havoc had already been wrought in a span of two or three minutes.
[2013/01/01 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: I guess with the right culture legislation would be unnecessary?
[2013/01/01 15:52] Kimiko Yiyuan: Thats what everyone says Extropia. But how do you really spot those in the end? And not everyone is insane from the start either. Some people that appeared always normal sometimes just snap for sometimes the most ridiculous reasons. That is the hard part in all this “of course we do not want sick people to have guns”.
[2013/01/01 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: on the scene, even
[2013/01/01 15:52] ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s look at the psychology of owning and shooting a gun, separate from the political issue. Why do people love guns? I think the reason might be a feeling of power that guns give. Power or empowerment.
[2013/01/01 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Even if you had an armed guard standing by inside the school, it might have taken a couple of minutes to respond effectively.
[2013/01/01 15:52] Morgaine Dinova: I don’t think auto is required for self defence, for a simple reason: one single bullet can kill.
[2013/01/01 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: It does feel great running around firing off big guns in an FPS..
[2013/01/01 15:54] Ivy Sunkiller: it might be a culture difference, but I find the idea of owning anything bigger than a pistol for self defense between absurd and insanity
[2013/01/01 15:54] ArtCrash Exonar: Well, can we all agree, that all people shouldn’t have access to rocket launchers? If so, it is only a matter of degree where to draw a line.
[2013/01/01 15:54] Extropia DaSilva: I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman in this online world, but in another I am known as Master Chief, scourge of the Covenant. I am armed to the teeth!
[2013/01/01 15:55] Morgaine Dinova: I do not play PvP in MMOs. I can’t stand firing at other humans, even in a game. I pretty much threw up when some friends invited me to paint ball. Some people simply don’t like to harm others, or even cause them brief pain. But defending yourself against an aggressor I do understand.
[2013/01/01 15:55] Kimiko Yiyuan: by the way, what happens when the guard is actually the guy that starts shooting? or if things become too much for an armed teacher and she starts shooting kids. Or if a kid gets a hold of a teachers gun at school somehow and plays around with it? no no, sorry but guns do not belong into schools. period!
[2013/01/01 15:55] Ivy Sunkiller: there is a difference between sport and hurting Morgaine
[2013/01/01 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: so how do we stop guns getting into schools? Or anywhere?
[2013/01/01 15:56] Ivy Sunkiller: the ultimate answer is – we can’t
[2013/01/01 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: Kimiko, you could spin “what if” scenarios and conclude that guns don’t belong anywhere. They are dangerous, we get that.
[2013/01/01 15:57] Kimiko Yiyuan: At least not in the US.
[2013/01/01 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: I think we have to admit that due to our ancient ancestors being hunters and much of our bodies being built for hunting, it is no surprise that people hunt animals today and can’t really explain why they are drawn to it.
[2013/01/01 15:57] Morgaine Dinova: Extie: Don’t focus so much on guns (I do realize it’s the topic, but it may be flawed). Would you have a problem with loons taking a can of gasoline into a school?
[2013/01/01 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: I kind of disagree, Zo. We can all name professions that require a gun.
[2013/01/01 15:57] Kimiko Yiyuan: Yaseh, just like some people spin the burglar scenarios or the evil government scenarios to a dead end. I wish some of those would get it too, some time.
[2013/01/01 15:58] Morgaine Dinova: I can name a profession that DOESN’T require a gun: police.
[2013/01/01 15:59] ArtCrash Exonar: I think in the USA, it is clear that the best that can be expected with gun control is to regulate military grade weapons to some degree….
[2013/01/01 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: They already are *heavily* regulated.
[2013/01/01 16:00] Ivy Sunkiller: curiosity: I’m reading an book/interview with Nergal, a singer (if you can say that) of Behemoth, a quite popular Black Metal band from Poland. Poland is about as right wing catholic nut as US and the guy is publicly hated on many fronts, but any incident he had that involved weapons (being threatened on a gas station or having his van shot) was in, surprise surprise, US
[2013/01/01 16:00] ArtCrash Exonar: Not im my state, I can go to a gun show and buy an AR 15 in cash with no check whatsoever.
[2013/01/01 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: An AR-15 is not a military weapon.
[2013/01/01 16:00] ArtCrash Exonar: It certainly is
[2013/01/01 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: what classifies a firearm as millitary grade?
[2013/01/01 16:01] Ivy Sunkiller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stag2wi_.jpg – home defense weapon *rolls eyes* 🙂
[2013/01/01 16:01] ArtCrash Exonar: A stands for assault
[2013/01/01 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: It’s a semi-auto. The military use full-auto M16 rifles.
[2013/01/01 16:01] ArtCrash Exonar: Assault Rifle
[2013/01/01 16:01] Morgaine Dinova: I think you may be finessing, in talking about one gun versus another. Any gun is a quantum leap over a knife.
[2013/01/01 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: Exactly… The military uses assault rifles. Civilians — for the most part — cannot.
[2013/01/01 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: Assault rifle sounds like it is made specifically to kill people.
[2013/01/01 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: yes they are
[2013/01/01 16:02] Ivy Sunkiller: “The AR-15 was first built by ArmaLite as a selective fire rifle for the United States armed forces.”
[2013/01/01 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: But that is part of the debate
[2013/01/01 16:02] Ivy Sunkiller: praised be wikipedia
[2013/01/01 16:03] Ivy Sunkiller: it may not be a military weapon, doesn’t change the fact it was designed to be one
[2013/01/01 16:03] Zobeid Zuma: Hitler is supposed to have invented that term… sturmgehwer…. storm rifle.
[2013/01/01 16:03] Morgaine Dinova: You should see the knives I have in the kitchen, Crocodile Dundee would be proud. But I would be powerless against an intruder with a .22
[2013/01/01 16:03] Extropia DaSilva: once upon a time they say/ remembering was tricky/ but now it is not/ nothing’s forgot/ we just consult the Wiki!
[2013/01/01 16:03] ArtCrash Exonar: The debate in the US is that guns are there to protect FROM government. This is the essence of the argument of the Conservatives when discussing gun control.
[2013/01/01 16:04] Zobeid Zuma: The wiki is sometimes misleading.
[2013/01/01 16:04] Kimiko Yiyuan: Yes. In the end it all comes down to this.
[2013/01/01 16:04] Ivy Sunkiller: I promise I didn’t edit it before quoting Zo 🙂
[2013/01/01 16:04] Chraeloos: I must be off, take good care everyone, thanks Extie
[2013/01/01 16:04] Ivy Sunkiller: byes Chraeloos!
[2013/01/01 16:04] Ivy Sunkiller: bah, too late
[2013/01/01 16:05] ArtCrash Exonar: quick poofer!
[2013/01/01 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: True Zo. One should not trust a single source of info. Any singlwe source of info.
[2013/01/01 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: After Colt bought the rights to the AR-15 from Armalite, and got it adopted by the US Army as the M16, they took to marketing the semi-auto version as the AR-16 and the full-auto version as the M16. That was in the 1960s. And so it has been ever since.
[2013/01/01 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: Excuse me, AR-15…. (There was an AR-16, but it was only a prototype!)
[2013/01/01 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: And there is no company that *officially* calls their gun an AR-15 anymore, since the AR-15 was banned by *name* in the 1994 AWB law.
[2013/01/01 16:06] ArtCrash Exonar: Well the bottom line is you can buy military grade guns in the USA in many places.
[2013/01/01 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: So they all had to rename their guns to continue selling them. 😛
[2013/01/01 16:07] Zobeid Zuma: Except that they’re not really military grade… Yes.
[2013/01/01 16:07] ArtCrash Exonar: There are all types of machine guns for sale at the local gun stores in my state.
[2013/01/01 16:07] Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: just answer me one question – was the gun used in Newtown *designed* for military?
[2013/01/01 16:07] Zobeid Zuma: No.
[2013/01/01 16:07] Ivy Sunkiller: so it’s like civilian Hummer?
[2013/01/01 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: It’s a pretty close derivative of one, though… Yeah, like the Hummer.
[2013/01/01 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: Has a gun designed for military every been used in these kind of masacres?
[2013/01/01 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: *ever
[2013/01/01 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: Pistols maybe….
[2013/01/01 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: Somebody may have used a Beretta pistol, which is also used by the Army. But that’s splitting hairs. It’s no machinegun.
[2013/01/01 16:09] ArtCrash Exonar: http://evilbloggerlady.blogspot.com/2012/12/so-what-weapons-did-adam-lanza-use-in.html
[2013/01/01 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: Notice it says that rifle was designed for military and law enforcement use?
[2013/01/01 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Yes, that’s incorrect.
[2013/01/01 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: In 1986 we got a law that banned the import and manufacture of machineguns that could legally be sold to private citizens. Since then, with the supply capped, prices have skyrocketed.
[2013/01/01 16:11] ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2013/01/01 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: And the funny thing is…. Those same weapons had already been restricted heavily since 1934 and had never been used in any crimes.
[2013/01/01 16:12] Morgaine Dinova: Not sure why we’re talking about specific types of gun.
[2013/01/01 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: So tell me Zo, what are people assaulting with assault rifles if not people?
[2013/01/01 16:12] Ivy Sunkiller: how is it unknown if the rifle was used (forgive me ignorance, I really couldn’t bother about the event)? It should be really easy to tell since rifle uses completely different rounds
[2013/01/01 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: Because there’s a big difference in the havoc you can wreak with a revolver versus an AR-15.
[2013/01/01 16:13] ArtCrash Exonar: The point is these are weapons used for one thing, to kill other people.
[2013/01/01 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: I thought we were trying to decide what level of firepower is acceptable for personal defense in a civiliian context, Morgie.
[2013/01/01 16:13] Morgaine Dinova: Auto vs non-auto is a pretty simple distinction, and widely recognized as a defining difference in power.
[2013/01/01 16:13] Zobeid Zuma: After these shootings it’s often quite hard to find out what was used. The police know, but they either don’t say, or what they say is vague and hard to interpret.
[2013/01/01 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: gone quiet..are we done?
[2013/01/01 16:14] Ivy Sunkiller: /me shakes head
[2013/01/01 16:15] Morgaine Dinova: It’s simply. Auto allows spraying power. Non-auto rquires you to deliberately think and decide who you are going to …. important word coming up here …. KILL.
[2013/01/01 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: WE have had some big problems with these military-style semi-autos though. So I can understand an impulse to go after them. But then the question becomes how do you define them in legislation? The 1994 AWB law was a disaster in that respect.
[2013/01/01 16:15] Morgaine Dinova: Simple*
[2013/01/01 16:16] Ivy Sunkiller: I’d honestly ban anything but a pistol for civilian use, with some exceptions for hunters and the likes
[2013/01/01 16:16] Zobeid Zuma: A semi-auto MAC-10 is technically a ‘pistol’.
[2013/01/01 16:16] Morgaine Dinova: People who who you don’t aim at will die with auto. Non-auto requires an act of will and targetting and pressing the trigger. That’s an immense difference.
[2013/01/01 16:17] Ivy Sunkiller: what’s the clip size of it?
[2013/01/01 16:17] ArtCrash Exonar: Some gun control experts say that the gun that should most be banned is the ‘saturday night special’ type of weapons that have no use in sport shooting of any kind. They are ONLY used for crime.
[2013/01/01 16:17] Zobeid Zuma: Reminds me of something from a RPG long ago… “It doesn’t take much brains to pull a trigger, and even less to pull one repeatedly.”
[2013/01/01 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: So we can draw the line and say automatic weapons are definitely only for military personel?
[2013/01/01 16:17] Zobeid Zuma: Haha!
[2013/01/01 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: Saturday night special, really?
[2013/01/01 16:18] ArtCrash Exonar: Cheap inaccurate hand guns
[2013/01/01 16:18] Ivy Sunkiller: in the end, it’s the american gun culture that’s wrong if you ask me 😛
[2013/01/01 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah… Heaven forbid that people should be able to get small, affordable guns to defend themselves!
[2013/01/01 16:18] Morgaine Dinova: Automatic weapons are for “don’t care who dies” use. That’s not the same thing as “military use”
[2013/01/01 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: How do you change a culture, though, Ivy?
[2013/01/01 16:19] Ivy Sunkiller: nuke the whole US and start from scratch
[2013/01/01 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: I love the American gun culture. The culture is great. It’s the people outside of it who get their hands on these and cause the havoc.
[2013/01/01 16:19] Ivy Sunkiller: but jokes aside
[2013/01/01 16:19] Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t know anyone IRL who owns a weapon
[2013/01/01 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: Ok but what I mean is, an automatic weapon has no place in a civilian’s hands, ever.
[2013/01/01 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: There is no changing the US populations love of guns in the short run. Education might work in the longer run.
[2013/01/01 16:19] Ivy Sunkiller: or if they do, they conceal it well
[2013/01/01 16:20] Zobeid Zuma: That’s a disturbingly absolute statement, Extie… But even if I were to accept it, how would this be relevant? We don’t have a problem with people misusing full-auto weapons. It’s moot.
[2013/01/01 16:20] Morgaine Dinova: In the longer run, the fact that US civilians are armed may save us all. We’re dangerously close to a police state in EU now.
[2013/01/01 16:20] Ivy Sunkiller: and I’m 99% sure if you asked them why they don’t have one, they’d say they never considered getting one or they think they don’t need it
[2013/01/01 16:20] Extropia DaSilva: Reminds me of a video I saw, this guy showed how he could conceal an entire arsenal of weapons about his person. You would never have known he carried anything but he had enough to start a war!
[2013/01/01 16:21] Ivy Sunkiller: US is pretty close to a police state as well, if not further in it
[2013/01/01 16:21] ArtCrash Exonar: I think individually we need to ask ourselves, “Why do I feel the need to have a gun”. Is it a power issue? Is it a bloodlust issue? Is it a fear issue? Just what is it?
[2013/01/01 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: Fear.
[2013/01/01 16:22] Ivy Sunkiller: if I felt I need to have a gun where I live, I’d rather change where I live than get a gun
[2013/01/01 16:22] Ivy Sunkiller: it’s that simple
[2013/01/01 16:22] Zobeid Zuma: If you want a police state, I’d suggest Japan — where the police visit every household annually, routinely beat confessions out of suspects, and practically all firearms are forbidden.
[2013/01/01 16:22] Kimiko Yiyuan: Well, to say one last thing about the topic: Concerning the US Zo is quite right. There are far too many weapons of all kinds in circulation already to get rid of the problem with simply banning a few kinds of guns now. Which does not mean that nothing should be done at all, of course. I think though calling for even more guns to be around is not the answer either.
[2013/01/01 16:22] Zobeid Zuma: But they still had the subway attacks with *nerve* gas!
[2013/01/01 16:22] ArtCrash Exonar: I shot guns as a child. I don’t have guns. I won’t have guns. I believe having a gun is MORE likely to get me killed than not having one.
[2013/01/01 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: I just think evil or crazy people will always find some way of doing terrible things.
[2013/01/01 16:23] Morgaine Dinova: Ivy: The main “police state” oppression in the US is mental though, they’re brain washed in to certain trains of thought like “bleeding the poor is good”. If that ever became physical oppression though, the guns would likely come out.
[2013/01/01 16:23] ArtCrash Exonar: Crazy people with fewer guns will do less damage though.
[2013/01/01 16:23] Kimiko Yiyuan: Oh come on Zo! Japan and a police state! Do not get carried away by stating such a nonsense!
[2013/01/01 16:24] Ivy Sunkiller: Morgaine: Poland got rid of communism without civilians having guns
[2013/01/01 16:24] Morgaine Dinova: Crazies do very little dmg. I said it earlier: you want feweer deaths, by a factor of 100? Ban cars.
[2013/01/01 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: Ok it is a little early but my primary is getting tired so…can we have concluding statements please? GUNS..WHO NEEDS THEM?
[2013/01/01 16:24] Zobeid Zuma: What? It’s the very model of a modern police state…. Along with Saudi Arabia.
[2013/01/01 16:24] Morgaine Dinova: Extie: Everybody needs them except those who have them currently.
[2013/01/01 16:24] Ivy Sunkiller: too many people
[2013/01/01 16:25] Ivy Sunkiller: guns are not the problem, the need is
[2013/01/01 16:25] Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://zobeid.zapto.org/firearms/17M4_RIFLE.jpg
[2013/01/01 16:25] Zobeid Zuma: My favorite. 🙂
[2013/01/01 16:25] Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!