THINKERS DECEMBER 11 2012: THE FREE INTERNET.

Extropia DaSilva: How much longer will the Internet remain free?
[2012/12/11 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: National Shopping Day? That was Black Friday, wasn’t it?
[2012/12/11 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it high time governments stepped in and regulated the Web?
[2012/12/11 15:34]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there was a conference on ITU if I got that right
[2012/12/11 15:34]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): some countries dont like unfiltered networks
[2012/12/11 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: No countries like it.
[2012/12/11 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: every country has some degree of filtering.
[2012/12/11 15:35]  Ari (arisia.vita): free means anyone can see anything on the web?
[2012/12/11 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: does it?
[2012/12/11 15:35]  Ari (arisia.vita): that’s my question
[2012/12/11 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: It could mean several things. Internet freedom is a multi-faceted problem.
[2012/12/11 15:36]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “free” let us define that as “free speach”, content you created yourselfes
[2012/12/11 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess nobody would want that. So it must mean something else.
[2012/12/11 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s government censorship…. there’s government surveillance… there’s corporate control over your “cloud” data…
[2012/12/11 15:36]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if we trail of onto “stolen property” we just would fuel the filtering side
[2012/12/11 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –> http://www.greller.eu/wordpress/?p=2784
[2012/12/11 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: you are not a facebook customer, you are a commodity. As the saying goes.
[2012/12/11 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello teale:)
[2012/12/11 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: When I heard about our topic, this is actually what I was thinking about. I was thinking about Apple and Google taking control over everything, not government filtering.
[2012/12/11 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: we are only a little group today, but that just means you have more chance of being heard:)
[2012/12/11 15:37]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they cloud has run stuck to my mind, the promises of scaleability and uptime coverage are mood
[2012/12/11 15:38]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if Apple and Goole do unite, they could form their own states
[2012/12/11 15:38]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): hello everyone
[2012/12/11 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: so the problem is corporate not governmental?
[2012/12/11 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: It can’t be both?
[2012/12/11 15:38]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): corpormental, agreed
[2012/12/11 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: They’re all in cahoots!
[2012/12/11 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: But what is wrong with Google and Apple controlling the web? Their products are excellent.
[2012/12/11 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: mostly…
[2012/12/11 15:39]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they have no constitution
[2012/12/11 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: (we will ignore Lively)
[2012/12/11 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: (and Google Wave)
[2012/12/11 15:39]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): yes, lets ignore Lively 😀
[2012/12/11 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Why does it need to be “controlled” by any central authority? And why shouldn’t you control your own data that you create?
[2012/12/11 15:39]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Wave is still alive?
[2012/12/11 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: No.
[2012/12/11 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: And why should the NSA intercept practically everything that travels over the internet?
[2012/12/11 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: to find bad stuff?
[2012/12/11 15:40]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the NSA because .. well … actually there is absolutely no need, but they justify their funding with that
[2012/12/11 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe some things are none of their business.
[2012/12/11 15:40]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): it’s their bussiness modell getting paid listening to everything
[2012/12/11 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: so you do not subscribe to ‘I do nothing wrong, I got nothing to hide’?
[2012/12/11 15:40]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they just get paid. just listen. doesnt mean much more
[2012/12/11 15:40]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you dont get anything for it
[2012/12/11 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Definitely not, extie.
[2012/12/11 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): as in more security or promises
[2012/12/11 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: and what is the flaw in that line of thinking?
[2012/12/11 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: The one lesson everybody needs to know about the law is: Never ever talk to the cops.
[2012/12/11 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Do not answer their questions.
[2012/12/11 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Do not provide them with documents.
[2012/12/11 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Do not tell them it’s okay to search your property.
[2012/12/11 15:42]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): Oh yes of course, I saw that movie. And I like your profile 🙂
[2012/12/11 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: simple privacy? The right to keep things to oneself? But then, why broadcast that over your email and FB wall in the first place?
[2012/12/11 15:42]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): german Geheimdienst hat german terrorists running rampart in the country for over a decade, killing others (immigrants). They had been a nazi terror cell. Guess you did not heard anything about that
[2012/12/11 15:42]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): oh I’m sorry, that was the wrong place!!
[2012/12/11 15:42]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): I’m still getting used to this viewer.
[2012/12/11 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: We have all commented in the wrong window, hon:)
[2012/12/11 15:42]  Ari (arisia.vita): it’s ok Teal, everyone here knows me well… 🙂
[2012/12/11 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: We used to have snail mail, and we put our letters into an envelope.
[2012/12/11 15:43]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): I am such a mess at times yet.
[2012/12/11 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Now we have email, but it’s the equivalent of a postcard: everybody along the way can read it.
[2012/12/11 15:43]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): scan on high speed
[2012/12/11 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Gosh me too teal. I sometimes think I never stopped being a noob in Sl and never will.
[2012/12/11 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello TR:)
[2012/12/11 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: We’ve had the technology for encrypted email for a long time, but it just never caught on. Too much hassle, and none of the big companies ever bothered to make an email client with encryption integrated into it.
[2012/12/11 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: If Apple or Microsoft had done that way back when, it could easily have come into common usage.
[2012/12/11 15:45]  TR Amat: Hi
[2012/12/11 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: why do you think it did not happen?
[2012/12/11 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: The story of the internet…. Security is always an afterthought.
[2012/12/11 15:45]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if you know anything about 2nd world war, you would remember that encryption merely exists for a false sense of security
[2012/12/11 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: because if code breakers, you mean?
[2012/12/11 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s better than nothing, Luisa.
[2012/12/11 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): even after, Enigmas had been sold .. for better sorting out where to listen to
[2012/12/11 15:46]  TR Amat: Part of it is SMTP = that relied on trust.
[2012/12/11 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): no, it is worser than nothing
[2012/12/11 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): people choosed nothing over that
[2012/12/11 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Thing is, though, the more Google can learn about you, the better it can tailor its search engines and advertisements to serving your needs.
[2012/12/11 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: aw did we lose TR?
[2012/12/11 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Have you ever seen a Google ad that was actually useful, Extie?
[2012/12/11 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a usefull Google add?
[2012/12/11 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): no,
[2012/12/11 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): not that I know of any
[2012/12/11 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they dont exist
[2012/12/11 15:47]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): But none of this applies to SL does it?
[2012/12/11 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Fairly. As in ‘interesting. Moving on’.. But that just goes to show that Google needs more improving.
[2012/12/11 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I learned never even to bother reading the sponsored search results, because they’re always off-the-mark compared with the regular results.
[2012/12/11 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: It does not need to, teal. This discussion is about the Internet remaining free, to what extent it IS free and stuff like that. Not just SL.
[2012/12/11 15:48]  TR Amat: I amstill here.
[2012/12/11 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a human brain jamms on reading advertisements
[2012/12/11 15:49]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): it’s isnide the genetics
[2012/12/11 15:49]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): I mean, I don’t suppose there is an issue with SL being monitored in some way?
[2012/12/11 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, sorry TR I thought I saw you disappear.
[2012/12/11 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Well that could be included in the topic Teal. Do you have anything to say about that?
[2012/12/11 15:50]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Google is, to my mind, absolutely harmless. The only poor victims are the ones buying ads. Spending their money.
[2012/12/11 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2012/12/11 15:51]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): No, I just wondered if there might be something happening about that.
[2012/12/11 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya
[2012/12/11 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Gosh Gwyn for a second or two back there…you were Ruth!
[2012/12/11 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oph my… really??
[2012/12/11 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: we have all been there..
[2012/12/11 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought that wouldn’t happen any more
[2012/12/11 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Tut Gwyn, you mean you believed the Lindens?
[2012/12/11 15:52]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): perhaps Exties client is still configured for it
[2012/12/11 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: anyway…
[2012/12/11 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me humbly admits being naive
[2012/12/11 15:52]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): believing Lindens would be like reading ads
[2012/12/11 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: we are talking about the Internet and how long it can remain ‘free’ and what we mean when we say the net is ‘free’..
[2012/12/11 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: stuff like that..
[2012/12/11 15:53]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): has it ever been free?
[2012/12/11 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think so..
[2012/12/11 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Eh?
[2012/12/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh nice! recently I read an article on a stupid blog full of creationists (the author is a positivist) where a local politician was claiming that the Internet should be censored, because people are unable to find ‘accurate’ information….
[2012/12/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was about free information
[2012/12/11 15:54]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you always had to pay for bandwidth, and there has been social control from the beginnings
[2012/12/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not exactly about the Internet being “free”, but about access to info on the ‘net being “free”
[2012/12/11 15:54]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Netiquette
[2012/12/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hah. Netiquette. People can’t even spell that these days!
[2012/12/11 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure that netiquette counts as oppression.
[2012/12/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead, we have Terms of Service
[2012/12/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Zo
[2012/12/11 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Gwyn, I heard that Google filtered information for Creationists so that searches for evolution draw them towards Intelligent Design. I do not mean Google did this on purpose but that it happened as a result of their websurfing habits.
[2012/12/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: After all, netiquette is all about ‘rules by consensus’
[2012/12/11 15:55]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): access to ‘accurate’ information, how Orwell sprech
[2012/12/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (luisa: the politician wanting that is known to be a conservative, leaning to the right!)
[2012/12/11 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: (nice boots, Gwyn, btw)
[2012/12/11 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: you’re quite right! My own searches are all about Second Life, virtual worlds, and …. uh, well, fashion *blushes*
[2012/12/11 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (old ones, non-meshed – but thank you nevertheless!)
[2012/12/11 15:56]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): Google just gives what we ask for I’ve thought.
[2012/12/11 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I get spammed with a lot of dating site adverts.
[2012/12/11 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Google censors information based on one’s preferences. We don’t have access to ‘free’ information any longer (we already discussed this on Thinkers btw)
[2012/12/11 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: wonder what in my web activity makes Google think I am interested in that?
[2012/12/11 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I wonder why, you don’t need them…
[2012/12/11 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *scratches head*
[2012/12/11 15:57]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we need real time spam. not stale old pork arriving weeks later, when interest focuses elsewhere
[2012/12/11 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Well I was researching love and sex in the age of the web for my last essay series, so maybe that had something to do with it?
[2012/12/11 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha!
[2012/12/11 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes probably!
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I have a very polemic theory about ‘free speech’ on the Internet
[2012/12/11 15:58]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): shoot!
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn has the stage:)
[2012/12/11 15:58]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): need a soapbox?
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Governments love it!
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe thanks, I’m fine on the carpet
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Freedom of expression.
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn owns the ORIGINAL Thinkers soapbox!
[2012/12/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It used to mean: freedom for SOME journalists to write A FEW articles being read by a HANDFUL of people
[2012/12/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … without censorship or fear of being jailed
[2012/12/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was on the 19th century
[2012/12/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then the media exploded
[2012/12/11 15:59]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “you can have freedom of expression if we can commit forgery on elections! deal?”
[2012/12/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have MORE journalists,
[2012/12/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: writing a few MORE articles/TV shows etc
[2012/12/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seen by everybody..,. but…
[2012/12/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … 99.99999% of “everybody” remains silent in terms of expressing their opinion
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s cool for Governments,
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: since they only need to censor a few — just the media
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, Internet
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The promise by teh Stallmanians — everybody gets their own soapbox
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Everybody can emit opinions
[2012/12/11 16:00]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): todays, people want to be infotained
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah who is a journalist in this day and age? Are you, Gwyn?
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Everybody can read each other’s opinions
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: well no because there are too many.
[2012/12/11 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (no, but I could; it doesn’t require much, in legal terms, to become an official journalist around here)
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: RIGHT Extie
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: people now THINK their opinion matter,
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because they post it on Facebook’s timeline
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and say, “oh cool, I have 5,000 friends”
[2012/12/11 16:01]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): reading n * (n-1) articles is impossible for n beeing very huuge number
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “all of them are important”
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Fame is an imbalance between attention you get and attention you can give.
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good definition, Extie!
[2012/12/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, first of all, nobody has 5000 ‘friends’
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (remember the Monkeysphere)
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Not mine. Clay Shirky’s.
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We all have, uh, a handful of people
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (gosh, I’ve praised Shirky …— I will need to take a bath afterwards!)
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a handful of people who might pay attention to what we say
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: here is the bit Governments love
[2012/12/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While we’re wasting our time on Facebook,
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Careful Gwyn, The thought of you in a bath will get Ari here all hot under the collar..
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thinking we’re “expressing ourselves freely”
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Extie
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: *pats Ari;s hand and Giggles*
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Ari (arisia.vita): 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is time wasted that we could be doing other things, like, uh, starting grassroot movements and political parties and overthrowing the Government… 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead,
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we update timelines,
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: totally convinced that our opinion matters
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: everybody out there does the same,
[2012/12/11 16:03]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): true up until pirate party movement arrived
[2012/12/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: nobody reads each other’s opinions
[2012/12/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh…
[2012/12/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we stop reading facetious journalists, too
[2012/12/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We ignore TV and newspapers
[2012/12/11 16:04]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): some newspapers even closed down bussiness
[2012/12/11 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I think you overstate your case Gwyn. In the Middle East you had revolutions that began online but didn’t stay confined there for long.
[2012/12/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cool, says Government, now traditional media became redundant, we can ignore them all 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha Zo
[2012/12/11 16:04]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): financial times been done where I am
[2012/12/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, I was told about that fallacy!
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a good point you raise. Did all those rallys/demos/revolutions start on social media?
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We were told, “of course”
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The real answer: it was all staged
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Ahhh but during one incident in tel Aviv Twitterers were posting regular tweets documenting the moment by moment advance of tanks and troops against protestors. Surely that was a little bit more important and newsworthy than your average ‘I just had toast MMMM’ tweet?
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All it mattered was that ONE call for a rally/demo/revolution,
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: By who? The Illuminati? 😛
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hit the TRADITIONAL media
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because you might have a friend working for traditional media
[2012/12/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And they mention it,
[2012/12/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: spinning it as: “this is something started on Facebook!”
[2012/12/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now EVERYBODY will start following that
[2012/12/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suddenly the “grassroots movement” started on Facebook becomes massive
[2012/12/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so MORE traditional media report on it
[2012/12/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And so forth
[2012/12/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, this has been studied by a group of journalists, after in Portugal two rallies gathered a million people…
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and of course this was widespread on the news on traditional media
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So some people investigated.
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Every day,
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thousands upon thousands of rallies and protest marches are called
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some get 100, 1000 followers and Likes
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: there was a party that ended up with 100,000 rowdy ‘guests’ after it was anounced on FB.
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
[2012/12/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Was it really like that?
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or was it because some traditional media actually announced, “there is someone having a party announced on FB”?
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But only a very tiny proportion has a good friend on a TV station which promotes the event
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Not quite. I think it was picked up by a griefing group who engineered the whole thing.
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: When that happens…. things really go ‘viral’
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ha — even better, Extie)
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Another example
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: YouTube celebrities
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: FENTOOOOOON!
[2012/12/11 16:08]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): sorry but I need to go, rl seems to be happening.
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are a few TV shows who actually “hunt” for those celebrities
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (see you, Teale)
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Teale.Luna (tealjejune): glad to have met all of you
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They just look for people on YouTube with millions of views
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: So the internet doesn’t matter if the “traditional media” is involved? We can just write off the internet as unimportant then? 😛
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then they invite them to a radio or TV station
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wham! Instant success
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: that’s what Governments WANT
[2012/12/11 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: (OW THAT HURT, CHARLIE!!! Yep Extie knows her youtube viral vids…)
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Sounds like wishful thinking.
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They already can curb traditional media, but this way, they get two birds killed with a stone
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: People watch less traditional media (but still do it),
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so it’s easier to control,
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: You do not own a TV at all, right Gwyn?
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but they also spend far more time on social media
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I don’t hehe
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2012/12/11 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: good for you!
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is an important point to be raised …
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, two perhaps
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I dispute not your facts, only your conclusions. 😀
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is that social media feeds on marketeers and journalists,
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: we have time for two.
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: who make a living on them
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so they write about how social media is cool,
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: (has Gwyn reached her conclusion yet?)
[2012/12/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: which in turn gets them to sell articles on traditional media,
[2012/12/11 16:11]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): all this wishfull thinking that governements have a will, a goal, can form that, lead somewhere
[2012/12/11 16:12]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): daily expereince points elsewhere
[2012/12/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe luisa
[2012/12/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: remember: Government is NOT the politicians who have been elected!
[2012/12/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the advisors
[2012/12/11 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: but is ‘daily’ too short a timeframe to judge?
[2012/12/11 16:12]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they are just drifting from paycheck to paycheck, praing for the next election
[2012/12/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re right! And then more misinformation there is,
[2012/12/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the more likely they get re-elected
[2012/12/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing like teh Internet to spread misinformatioN!
[2012/12/11 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Reminds me of when Obama had been president for three days and there was a dip in his popularity. Like ‘hey that guy has been at the job ALL THIS TIME and the US still ain’t fixed!’.
[2012/12/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s the perfect tool: you cannot blame anyone
[2012/12/11 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: And the Bilderbergers pulling the strings of course….
[2012/12/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the only thing I don’t believe is that there is “one” group “controlling everything”,
[2012/12/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rather, a lot of groups
[2012/12/11 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): controlling into several directions 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:14]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): oh what a mess
[2012/12/11 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: dozens of thousands, hundreds of thousands…. still, compared to the world’s population, they’re not many
[2012/12/11 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa:; aye, each controlling into their own direction! Messy indeed.
[2012/12/11 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: the corporatocracy you mean?
[2012/12/11 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, you can’t have *total* decentralization, that would just be like white noise. It couldn’t lead you anywhere.
[2012/12/11 16:14]  TR Amat: Sorry,phone call.
[2012/12/11 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, although there are individuals in that corporatocracy (love that word btw!)
[2012/12/11 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: (not mine. I forget the name of the guy who coined it)
[2012/12/11 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Recently, there was an interesting letter from a bank to their major shareholders which was leaked
[2012/12/11 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): remains wishfull leftists thinking that there is a single instance, a reasonable force
[2012/12/11 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (exactly — there is not a “single” instance)
[2012/12/11 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: (have i ever said any thought that was actually my own?)
[2012/12/11 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that was very philosophical, Extie!)
[2012/12/11 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The bank wrote a newsletter about the financial crisis
[2012/12/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They warned bankers and shareholders and speculators,
[2012/12/11 16:16]  TR Amat: You do need local resources, like PV solar panels.
[2012/12/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Remember, we’re just 1%, they are 99%, and are very unhappy right now. The situation is complicated”!
[2012/12/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But…
[2012/12/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They also added: “The good news is that all that those 99% actually want,
[2012/12/11 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: oo ‘we are the 99%’. Is that were it came from?
[2012/12/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “is to be part of the 1%.”
[2012/12/11 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): food?
[2012/12/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
[2012/12/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Food is what they need; being part of the 1% is what they want.
[2012/12/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While doing so,
[2012/12/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They will vote to keep the status quo
[2012/12/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who knows,
[2012/12/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you might win the lottery
[2012/12/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: your channel on YouTube might get rpoducers congtact you for national TV
[2012/12/11 16:17]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a thesis on watching north african border states has been voicing it is all about … eating. Or hungryness
[2012/12/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So when you win the nlottery or become famous,
[2012/12/11 16:18]  TR Amat: Actually, the 99% want to get on with their lives, without worrying about financial matters.
[2012/12/11 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you want that the 1%still are in power, since you’ll be one of them
[2012/12/11 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: OK but once you have food on a regular basis, you want social standing. You want to be important.
[2012/12/11 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): people never start a revolution. unless hungry
[2012/12/11 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While you believe you can one day be part of the 1%, you will not overthrow them 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: I guess you’re right!!
[2012/12/11 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): freedom is no coin
[2012/12/11 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: was the Web not revolutionary, then?
[2012/12/11 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why democracies are not easily overthrown. A study by Rudolph Rummel showed that democracies tend to eliminate famine
[2012/12/11 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: not in the sense that the Stallmannists wished it to be in the mid-1990s
[2012/12/11 16:19]  TR Amat: Being important is far too much like hard work – people want to be useful, and, to be valued.
[2012/12/11 16:19]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Extie, the Web was a technical revolution
[2012/12/11 16:19]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you can still have www, let’s say … in China
[2012/12/11 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yes, short-term. Long-term, they want to be rich, famous, have a good reputation, live comfortably, wield power 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:20]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they even produce them handy gadgets there now
[2012/12/11 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A nasty comment I heard recently: “You know why we Americans talk about the American Dream so much? Because it’s a DREAM”
[2012/12/11 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But people believe it can become true 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:21]  TR Amat: I think people want to have a “goodlife” – that is often not that well defined.
[2012/12/11 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While they believe that, they will maintain the status quo.
[2012/12/11 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: In Orwell’s fictional world the low want equality, the middle want to become the high and the high want to remain where they are. The middle pretend that they are interested in equality until a successful revolution overthrows the high, at which point the middle become the high and they thrust the low back down into servitude. And then a new middle breaks free from the high or the low and it all goes round again and again.
[2012/12/11 16:21]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): fearing the effects of population dymamics, shifts in crop harvests (global warming) and population growth (only sure growth economy has inside viewfield)
[2012/12/11 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: These days, there isn’t a “low” or a “middle” in the West
[2012/12/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We just have rich and poor. The difference is that the poor have TV, health, food, and so forth
[2012/12/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is poor and lives under the threshold of poverty for her country
[2012/12/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Strangely enough, I cannot make anyone believe *that*
[2012/12/11 16:22]  TR Amat: Who was it who said “We’ll all be chewing algae, by and by”? 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s because we have completely changed the structure of society _below_ the rich class
[2012/12/11 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Soylent Green, TR 🙂 hehe
[2012/12/11 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there still are lots and lots of people on earth who are below middle class, so to say television-less, car-less
[2012/12/11 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: No it was not Soylent Green.
[2012/12/11 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the West?
[2012/12/11 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa — how many?
[2012/12/11 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 100,000?
[2012/12/11 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A million?
[2012/12/11 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ten millions?
[2012/12/11 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And are they like that by choice or by fate? 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:24]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): West focuses on exactly the part of the world where there are not so many survival struggles
[2012/12/11 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (whatever ‘fate’ is in this context)
[2012/12/11 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right. I was talking about the West,
[2012/12/11 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: so it is different in the East?
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because the “freedom” of the Internet is unfortunately not something accessible to the world’s population
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh well
[2012/12/11 16:25]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): taking India for example, it might fall out of the BRIC states croup
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need to redefine “West” hehe
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: or are you just not educated enough to comment?
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Japan is “West” 😉
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Korea is “West”
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: How about Mexico?
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Taiwan is “West”
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mexico is… a BRIC wannabe
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: (Gwyn’s atlas is screwy)
[2012/12/11 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a political atlas, not a geographical one 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: (Oh OK)
[2012/12/11 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): economical atlas
[2012/12/11 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[2012/12/11 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: four minutes left Gwyn..
[2012/12/11 16:26]  TR Amat: Economics is weird…
[2012/12/11 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Geography is weird. I still don’t understand why eastern states like Ohio are part of the “midwest”.
[2012/12/11 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): *g*
[2012/12/11 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, Zo, someone was telling me about that yuesterday and I was baffled 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just shows how little I understand the US…
[2012/12/11 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: so what is the grand conclusion with regards to this ongoing petition I keeo seeing to ‘tel governements to keep the internet free’?
[2012/12/11 16:27]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there allready is an answer from government available?
[2012/12/11 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I personally think that Governments wanting to censor the Internet are stupid,
[2012/12/11 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: let their citizens waste time on Facebook!
[2012/12/11 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The more they’re on Facebook, the more stupified they become
[2012/12/11 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And stupid citizens make bad voting choices.
[2012/12/11 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or don’t vote at all
[2012/12/11 16:28]  TR Amat: The Internet can never be fee – i coststo insall an maintin.
[2012/12/11 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, keep the Internet free. It’s far better for Governments
[2012/12/11 16:28]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): or at least you know how their tendency is
[2012/12/11 16:28]  TR Amat: free it costs*
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Only if you letFB stupify you. You can use it to broaden your horizons and open you up to opinions you find challenging.
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: most people aren’t even aware of how TV stupifies them, much less FB 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I forgot to mention something.,..
[2012/12/11 16:29]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): FB really should have allowed synonymes to make a point on this carpet here 😀
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Hey Gwyn… I’m shopping for a smartphone. Should I swear my oath of fealty to Apple or to Google?
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Edge cases
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: what are those?
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: I know what ‘ead cases are..
[2012/12/11 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I’m biased! I’m an Apple fangirl! You need an unbiased opinion 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: met a few of them:)
[2012/12/11 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Zob, take an Android
[2012/12/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Edge cases is a word coined in the compuyer industry,
[2012/12/11 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: *raises hand as fellow Apple fangirl*
[2012/12/11 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Apple produces just 1 model
[2012/12/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most programmers spend all their time on the edge cases, which are used seldom,
[2012/12/11 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the Android world is much bigger than 1
[2012/12/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: instead of focusing on what 99% of people will use
[2012/12/11 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just take a look at SL 🙂
[2012/12/11 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: I did. Pretty:)
[2012/12/11 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a typical example where LL only focuses on edge cases 🙂 and only very rarely on what most people use
[2012/12/11 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well my time is up!
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