[2012/12/04 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/12/04 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is..
[2012/12/04 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: If you are spam it pays to impersonate humans. So what happens when spam passes the Turing test?
[2012/12/04 15:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: It won’t be pork shoulder and ham anymore!
[2012/12/04 15:31]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): /me groannnnns
[2012/12/04 15:32]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I’d just treat the spam the same way; I’d deleter it, or say something rude to it.
[2012/12/04 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: But seriously….. bots are getting smarter. I got fooled by one last week for a bit.
[2012/12/04 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: We got a person on KurzweilAI dedicated to exposing alleged bots even if they are just posting comments and replies instead of advertising something..
[2012/12/04 15:32]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): We get serious about BotNet counter-attacks
[2012/12/04 15:32]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): But if you say something rude to it, it knows you’re there, and therefore it breeds……
[2012/12/04 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: That seems to be going around, Art.
[2012/12/04 15:33]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, wouldn’t you know it’s a ‘bot when it breeds. Then you can mute it
[2012/12/04 15:33]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): I more often find I’m speaking to a real person who I would swear is a bot.
[2012/12/04 15:33]  leggs Loopen: lol
[2012/12/04 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: General human nature is not to be rude to humans ….. at least until they give you a reason to be…. heh
[2012/12/04 15:34]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): yes… need carbon verification some times in RL
[2012/12/04 15:34]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): 😛
[2012/12/04 15:34]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You more often find you’re speaking to a real person who you’d swear was a bot, lylie? Go with that… (lol)
[2012/12/04 15:34]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): Two words: Tech Support. Textbook answers, irrelevant comments…. they sound like bots!
[2012/12/04 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: Humans behaving like bots is lots of talking and very little listening
[2012/12/04 15:34]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me groans. She just joined ‘verified RL girl,’ now ‘verified Carbon based life form?’ When will it all end?
[2012/12/04 15:35]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): At the singularity
[2012/12/04 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Nope. That is when it begins!
[2012/12/04 15:35]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): es
[2012/12/04 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, with noobs I often find their interactions much more awkward, inept and unnatural-seeming than a good bot.
[2012/12/04 15:35]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): yes… we merge with the AI
[2012/12/04 15:36]  leggs Loopen: /me smiles
[2012/12/04 15:36]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): a new beginning
[2012/12/04 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking of a bot that could pass the Turing test and how advertisers could control it to keep the subject on point. That would be the giveaway.
[2012/12/04 15:36]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, sure, Zoe, one way to detect a human being is that they may be awkward, inept and unnatural. Bots will be smooth
[2012/12/04 15:36]  leggs Loopen: yes
[2012/12/04 15:36]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): The Truman Show
[2012/12/04 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: If spam has passed the Turing test would that not make a recommedation exactly the same as your friend or aquaintance talking you into trying something?
[2012/12/04 15:36]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, what you do is come up with questions that only a human being can answer
[2012/12/04 15:36]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): show you are a true man or woman
[2012/12/04 15:36]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): exactly
[2012/12/04 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie, I think by definition Advertising is a lack of objectivity.
[2012/12/04 15:37]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I think so. The point would be whether the marketing was effective, not whether it came from an AI
[2012/12/04 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh is that why it was called Truman? Punning on true man?
[2012/12/04 15:37]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): yes
[2012/12/04 15:37]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And here I thought it had to do with that President of the US
[2012/12/04 15:37]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): haha
[2012/12/04 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Cool. Never occured to me that it meant that.
[2012/12/04 15:37]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seriously. I’ve been wracking my brains trying to figure out the parallels
[2012/12/04 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Advertising wants to give the ‘appearance’ of objectivity while exaggerating the products capabilities.
[2012/12/04 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Of course some friends are not objective in their product recommends either.
[2012/12/04 15:38]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, good advertising hits your needs and says the product can satisfy them.
[2012/12/04 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Are people any less objective?
[2012/12/04 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: or more?
[2012/12/04 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Product Fanboi recommends are mostly worthless.
[2012/12/04 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually… I can only think of a few instances where it would be *helpful* for some sort of spam-bot to pass the turing test. Would that even make people less resistant to its pitch? I know I don’t have much patience with real live telemarkters who phone me.
[2012/12/04 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: If I recommend Truth hair to you (my lovely hair is a Truth design btw) is my recommendation more objective than a spam bot?
[2012/12/04 15:39]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Real Life telemrketers will not take no for an answer; you have to hang up on them in the middle of their spiel.
[2012/12/04 15:39]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi DanO
[2012/12/04 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: The closer the bot comes to not lying about the product, the more likely to succeed it may be.
[2012/12/04 15:39]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hey! Stop shoving
[2012/12/04 15:39]  Dan0mack: hi
[2012/12/04 15:39]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): ((As a RL Debt Collector…. Oh do I know about hang-ups…))
[2012/12/04 15:40]  Dan0mack: sorry I had a couple drinks on the way
[2012/12/04 15:40]  leggs Loopen: hi danomack
[2012/12/04 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Rhi, telemarketers RELY on the basic social graces and cynically take advantage of them. But that is why we take such great pleasure in angering them… heh
[2012/12/04 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: they violate the ‘rules’ and must pay for it…
[2012/12/04 15:40]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, exactly
[2012/12/04 15:40]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): or why we have caller ID on everything
[2012/12/04 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Rhi, if you have an ipad you can put Pierre the Talking Parrot on the line and let it repeat what the telemarketer says in a funny stacatto voice until he or she gets pissed off and hangs up.
[2012/12/04 15:41]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): haha
[2012/12/04 15:41]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): There is an app for that!
[2012/12/04 15:41]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): nice
[2012/12/04 15:41]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it’s fun to go beyond the ‘social graces’ and get them flustered. Same wit h creditors. “What did you call me?” lol
[2012/12/04 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, I have a foolproof measure for getting a telemarketer to hang up on you in anger. Just repeat whatever they say back to them.
[2012/12/04 15:42]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s a basic anti-interrogation technique, Art.
[2012/12/04 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: that is what Pierre does so you do not have to..
[2012/12/04 15:42]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): nice
[2012/12/04 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: oooooooo! I just thought how much fun it would be to have your own subversive bot talking to a telemarketer.
[2012/12/04 15:42]  Pixel Ghost: Does that app work on an iPhone as well?
[2012/12/04 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Would a bot be more annoying than a human telemarketer? Or would it be more efficient at terminating a call that is not going to end in a sale?
[2012/12/04 15:42]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The cops ask you “What are you doing in Vegas?” “Well, it all started in 1985, when I w as born….and you go from there in total detail
[2012/12/04 15:43]  Pixel Ghost: I just hang up as soon as I know it’s one of them.
[2012/12/04 15:43]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, probably less efficient. A human can be trained to know when he’s being successful, in spite of resistance. He looks for non-verbal cues, etc. Hard to program a robot like that
[2012/12/04 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: At this late date, I think telemarketing is failing as a strategy, and will continue to do so. I talk to none of them, whereas in the past I used to.
[2012/12/04 15:43]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwyn!
[2012/12/04 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me sneaks in
[2012/12/04 15:43]  leggs Loopen: hi gwyneth
[2012/12/04 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: (Yes the pierre app is available for iphone.)
[2012/12/04 15:43]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What does the Pierre app do?
[2012/12/04 15:44]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): A bot would be better at it sooner or later Extropia.
[2012/12/04 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Telemarketing phone calls are illegal (with some notable exceptions) in the USA, but they haven’t stopped.
[2012/12/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pierre is Siri’s hubby, like Ken is Barbie’s? 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:44]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): It is not a high school drop out nor loses motivation.
[2012/12/04 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I was reading an advertising ‘futurist’ writing about future advertising and concluding that ‘interruptive’ advertising would soon go extinct.
[2012/12/04 15:44]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, no, they’re not illegal, but you can demand that they cease, and then, if you file the appropriate request, they become illegal
[2012/12/04 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: It just repeats what you say, but in a parroty style like ‘repeat repeat say say hahahaha!’.
[2012/12/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting, Art. But on the ‘net we’re seeing that happening more and more
[2012/12/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie hehe
[2012/12/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, we get interrupting ads on video streaming providers, mobile apps, and so forth
[2012/12/04 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: (I recommend putting him on the line when you get a cold call, Gwyn)
[2012/12/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: just like on TV/radio
[2012/12/04 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Mostly what I see on the net, Gwyn is an attempt to entertain you first and put the message hidden in the entertainment.
[2012/12/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2012/12/04 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most know that they will leave the site if there isn’t an opt out button.
[2012/12/04 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s a Do Not Call registry you can put yourself on.
[2012/12/04 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –>
[2012/12/04 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really.
[2012/12/04 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Which telemarketers seem to use as a handy list of numbers where they can reach people. 😛
[2012/12/04 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And who respects that? 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:46]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yes, that’s what I’m talking about, or you can tell the telemarketer to do it on their company
[2012/12/04 15:46]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): Very few.
[2012/12/04 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agh. Right.
[2012/12/04 15:46]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): yes embedded advertisement is the longer term future
[2012/12/04 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I suspected as much, Zo
[2012/12/04 15:46]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): “product placement”
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes there is but call centers must have loop holes because my primary is on it and still gets pestered by call centers.
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Pixel Ghost: I’m on the Do Not Call registry in my state for my home phone (they call occasionally anyway) and on the National Do Not Call list for my cell phone. They calls to my cell are very annoying and are made from numbers the Attorney General can’t locate.
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My own strategy is answering telemarketeers with questions they don’t like. “What is your favourite TV show?” “I don’t own a TV”. Or: “Where do you work?” “I don’t. I’m a full-time student”
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Pixel Ghost: The* calls to…
[2012/12/04 15:47]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): Or they use spoof numbers which is also illegal
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ooooh really?
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You’d be amazed at what a few bars of “Jesus is just all right by me; Jesus is just all right, oh yeah,” will do to annoying calls.
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anyway this ‘future advertising’ person said that it is the duty of companies to make information available in detail on their product, to be called upon when the consumer is looking for it. That and easy buying thereafter.
[2012/12/04 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: btw this discussion is about spam bots that are intelligent enough to pass the turing test, not call centers and telemarketing.
[2012/12/04 15:48]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): /me hefts the train back onto its rails
[2012/12/04 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah! lol
[2012/12/04 15:48]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now she tells us. lol
[2012/12/04 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I had no idea 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: If you want to talk about what spam bots can do for telemarketing, that is fine..
[2012/12/04 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, how many spam bots do you know that pass the Turing test, Extie? 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Pixel Ghost: I thought about the topic for the discussion and suddenly realize why I don’t like calling tech support for anything anymore. They *do* sound robotic!
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Pixel, I can help you with that…
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: It is a hypothetical question, see. What will happen when they do? Has anyone noticed CAPTCHAs are getting harder and harder to read?
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Pixel!
[2012/12/04 15:49]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Spambot tech can be used to impersonate on the phone or even eventually on video
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I noticed that Extie.
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, you’re right…
[2012/12/04 15:49]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Face recognition software shows the starting point
[2012/12/04 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: How many spam bots does it take to screw in a lightbulb? I don’t know, how do you feel about lightbulb? (question asked to spam bot)
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Pixel Ghost: “So, am I to understand that your whatever is doing <insert anything here>?”
[2012/12/04 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Do you think it is because machine vision is improving?
[2012/12/04 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now they even include moving letters, like having them printed on a flag that waves…
[2012/12/04 15:50]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t even know what a CaPChA is, Extie, so no, I haven’t noticed. lol
[2012/12/04 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Could be, machine vision IS improving a LOT.
[2012/12/04 15:50]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Yes it is
[2012/12/04 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Lord Inglip is displeased!
[2012/12/04 15:50]  Pixel Ghost: Yes, I do! Now that I realize why they irritate me. They are probably acclimating us gradually to it just like microchip identification.
[2012/12/04 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw you know, Rhi. When you post a comment on Blogger, you have to fill in a couple of words which are strangely spelt, Rhi
[2012/12/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So to prove you’re not a spam bot
[2012/12/04 15:51]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): BigDog is a robot that can follow a US soldier along a mountainside by sight of keeping track of its human.
[2012/12/04 15:51]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, yeah, I’ve noticed that they are harder and harder to read. Thought it was my glasses. lol
[2012/12/04 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: it is those distorted words you have to read and type correctly in order to post on some forums. Re capcha is cool, though, because every time you type a word correctly you help digitize the world’s books:)
[2012/12/04 15:51]  Pixel Ghost: Rhi, it’s when you make a new email account or any type of account on the Internet and to prove you are a real carbon human being instead of a robot, you have to type in a code that is barely legible to even a human before you get the account.
[2012/12/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love the question they sometimes use: “Are you human?”:)
[2012/12/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How so, Extie?
[2012/12/04 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: On thing about spam bots, is that they can talk to you all day instead of having to move to the next client. So that can allow for lots of latitude before the sales pitch, which could be included with stealth and subtlety.
[2012/12/04 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, Art
[2012/12/04 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: /me points –>
[2012/12/04 15:52]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, a lot of those ‘bot tactics are the same as a human trying to mirror or build rapport. Don’t you think?
[2012/12/04 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And of course they have low costs, compared to, say, humans on a call center
[2012/12/04 15:52]  Pixel Ghost: I love books though and want to keep them in paper and spine form. They are beautiful and they smell nice in a library.
[2012/12/04 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In some cases, yes, Rhi….
[2012/12/04 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: because the word comes from a page that was scanned and the OCR does not recognize it. the inventor of Capcha (luis Van Ann) came up with a way to get people to identify the word and used it as a more useful version if his earlier capcha.
[2012/12/04 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why they are able to fool people, at least for a while
[2012/12/04 15:53]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): There IS a distinct “library smell” that always draws me back to them
[2012/12/04 15:53]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Would you like to go with that, Gwyn…(lol)
[2012/12/04 15:53]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s called dust, lyllie
[2012/12/04 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: but if Capcha doesn’t know the word beforehand, how can it know that you’re spelling it right? 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I prefer the word ‘convinced’
[2012/12/04 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: dust… so unromantic 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:54]  Pixel Ghost: That’s fascinating about luis Van Ann… hmmm
[2012/12/04 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: The more I think about this, the more I realize that a spam bot could be tailored to your interests that it has gathered from you internet presence, and be very interesting to talk to. AND it could make the sales pitch to you in a way that you would perceive as helping you. So I think it is possible they would work very well.
[2012/12/04 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: (Because you get two words, one it knows and one it does not and if millions spell the two words the same it has confidence that both are correct)
[2012/12/04 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaaaaah
[2012/12/04 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so that’s how it works!
[2012/12/04 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so clever 😀
[2012/12/04 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: (it has a crowdsourced team of 100 million+ helping to digitize the world’s books:) )
[2012/12/04 15:55]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Agreed ArtCrash
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Pixel Ghost: I think I want to get an SL bot now.
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Art
[2012/12/04 15:56]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Google would be the perfect Advertisement Bot Maker
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Samara!
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Google could, in theory, crewte the perfect spam bot
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I have met a couple. None were sophisticated enough for my purposes.
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol William
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry!
[2012/12/04 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you beat me to it 😉
[2012/12/04 15:56]  leggs Loopen: hi samara
[2012/12/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Facebook too
[2012/12/04 15:57]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): haha
[2012/12/04 15:57]  Samara Nikitin: hello 🙂
[2012/12/04 15:57]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Gwy… faster typer hehe
[2012/12/04 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking we could foresee smart bots as ‘shopping helpers’ who could answer all of your questions about any product in any objective way you decide. They would be reimbursed when they sent you to the final sales point. And the better they got, the more they would make.
[2012/12/04 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually, it is a sign of how sophisticated the human brain is, that Google’s vision neural net is a millon times less complex than the human brain.
[2012/12/04 15:58]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Personal digital assistant
[2012/12/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me bows to William’s typing skills
[2012/12/04 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Literally, William! haha
[2012/12/04 15:58]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): like Siri is supposed to be an early version of
[2012/12/04 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: and Google’s software runs on a cluster of thousands of computers.
[2012/12/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me, Art, I do have a shopping bot on one of my in-world shops…
[2012/12/04 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Nahhh Clippy was prior to Siri:)
[2012/12/04 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Bots could be specialized in certain fields and in touch will every blog on any particular subject.
[2012/12/04 15:58]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, you earlier mentioned Siri like I was supposed to know who she is. Who is she?
[2012/12/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: make that millions 😉
[2012/12/04 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Siri is the iPhone’s AI…
[2012/12/04 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘it looks like you are trying to chair a Thinkers meeting’…
[2012/12/04 15:59]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Clippy was even earlier but far more lousy
[2012/12/04 15:59]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And what does she do? I have an android myself.
[2012/12/04 15:59]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Siri is software for the iPhone
[2012/12/04 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no idea, Rhi, my iPhone is way too old for running Siri hehe
[2012/12/04 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Google has Google Now which seems to be a rival PA. Rival to Siri, I mean..
[2012/12/04 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: YOu ask Siri questions and it responds as well as it can….
[2012/12/04 15:59]  Pixel Ghost: Then what will they do with the people who fill those positions?
[2012/12/04 16:00]  Pixel Ghost: Let them drown in a hurricane or a tsunami?
[2012/12/04 16:00]  leggs Loopen: ya
[2012/12/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pixel: the same we did to them in the early 19th century, I suppose….
[2012/12/04 16:00]  Pixel Ghost: hmmm
[2012/12/04 16:00]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, retrain them or send them to America to get rich?
[2012/12/04 16:00]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): One would need much more powerful computer chips for the iPhone Siri 2.0 to be a lot better
[2012/12/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. The latter!
[2012/12/04 16:00]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I guess today, you’d send them to China
[2012/12/04 16:00]  Pixel Ghost: So, that’s what the world is preparing for now then
[2012/12/04 16:00]  leggs Loopen: lol
[2012/12/04 16:01]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): or use cloud computer
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: My resistance to getting a smartphone is gradually breaking down.
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: they will be free to do more interesting things with their time, along with one time cash register operators made redundant by self-service tills.
[2012/12/04 16:01]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): like the iCloud Apple has
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: you could thoretically run a super-Siri on the cloud, and just have the smartphone as an interface.
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I really, really need to type faster!
[2012/12/04 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you do the math on ‘all possible questions’ on a subject, you quickly find that any person can ask a question that hasn’t ever been asked before in that particular way. So AI would be needed to really get a true handle on the entire internets worth of information.
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s how Siri works, isn’t it Gwyn?
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And William, you read my mind!
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Get one Zo. Become a neuron in the fast developing global brain.
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I practically was forced to get a smartphone; I couldn’t afford my carrier, switched to ATT, which would force me to actually pay for my phone unless it was an Androd Galaxy III smartphone. Then it would be a penny.
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think so, Zo
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Pixel Ghost: I waste too much time with my smart phone. I never even used texting until I got it. And, making a telephone call was faster than sending a long text to someone or than having a full conversation in text messages.
[2012/12/04 16:01]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So $50 for a dumb phone, a penny for a smartphone. I gave in.
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: but the same applies to real humans on a call center
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: No better yet, forget the phone and wait for Google glasses or its inevitable Apple rival.
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Pixel Ghost: To pay my home telephone bill takes me 7 minutes with a computer because he reiterates everything I say to him and he is not bright at all.
[2012/12/04 16:02]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): My fave feature of my smartphone is the voice recognition… especially on Google and for Navigation
[2012/12/04 16:02]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): yes Gwy…. I embedded a radio-neural interface into toe base of your brain.. hope you don’t mind.
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol no
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thus the itch!
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*
[2012/12/04 16:02]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): She didn’t feel a thing 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:02]  leggs Loopen: lol
[2012/12/04 16:02]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I make most of my phone calls through Google on my computer now. I have a ridiculous amount of ‘rollover” minutes cuz of that
[2012/12/04 16:02]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): zactly!
[2012/12/04 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: I am a holdout from the smartphone. Because I want to sometimes NOT be in touch. I do have a pad device though….
[2012/12/04 16:03]  Pixel Ghost: The way I see computers taking payments, is that they have transferred the human time element to our backs and taken it away from an employee who was reimbursed with wages, benefits, and retirement.
[2012/12/04 16:03]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): painless thus harmless
[2012/12/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I switch my phone off ㋡
[2012/12/04 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: I was an early adopter of radio neural interface, hence these clunky antenna. The new device is sooo tiny compared to this old thing;)
[2012/12/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*
[2012/12/04 16:03]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I found a way to not be in touch and still have a smartphone. Turn the phone off.
[2012/12/04 16:04]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): OMG!
[2012/12/04 16:04]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): really?!
[2012/12/04 16:04]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): turn it off?!
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: They’ve combined so many features in the phones now, though…. if you ever carried a watch, a music player, a camera, a GPS… and of course a phone… It’s all one thing now. It’s like the Star Trek communicator and tricorder put together.
[2012/12/04 16:04]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): Airplane mode…. then I can still play IRunner 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, to be honest, I think that the only reason for call centers NOT to use ‘bots right now is due to the Uncanny Valley effect. I mean, they have all the tech for it
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And take out the battery, in case you are afraid that the Fed will turn it on again while you’re in the shower
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes!!!
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: why would you turn it off? It is your connection to your exo-cortex, your store of updating digital memories.
[2012/12/04 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, the point isn’t the device, but getting your callers used to the idea that you aren’t always accessible.
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, with Siri it’s more like the communicator, tricorder and ship’s computer terminal put together.
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What’s the Uncanny Valley effect?
[2012/12/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art:Ç took me well over a decade to train them 😉
[2012/12/04 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2012/12/04 16:05]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, Zo, and it’s actually about the size of the early communictors in Star Trek: TOS
[2012/12/04 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: it’s a computer graphics expression to describe the weird feeling we get in front of ultra-realistic imagery when just something feels ‘not right’
[2012/12/04 16:05]  Pixel Ghost: My telephone is a convenience and I never feel compelled to answer it.
[2012/12/04 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Something that happens in CG animation. As it approaches realism, the tiniest deviation from naturalo movement, expression etc can make the artificual human look distinctly unsettling.
[2012/12/04 16:06]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): yes… true
[2012/12/04 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: interesting concept
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, oic. Yeah, some people say that about SL too
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rumours say that the reason why LL put some silly anims into our avatars was to trigger that Uncanny Valley effect
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: it’s well researched
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: with cartoony cartoons it does not matter. So no, SL avatars do not trigger that effect because they are nowhere near photorealistic enough.
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, it’s probably more that they haven’t figured out how to make us all totally realistic yet
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I can very well believe it’s the reason for not using that on call centers, people would freak out.
[2012/12/04 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Interesting thing, Extie… There was once a fighting game, with lots of martial arts animation… where they decided to motion-capture a real martial artist. But his moves were so precise, they looked robotic. They had to go back and motion-capture a more amateurish guy. :/
[2012/12/04 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (probably, Rhi, as said, it’s just a rumour!)
[2012/12/04 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is hilarious Zo!
[2012/12/04 16:07]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Mesh should be a big step towards photorealism in SL
[2012/12/04 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I did not know that, Zo. Thanks!
[2012/12/04 16:07]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): in software and network architecture
[2012/12/04 16:07]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I believe it; gransmasters of MA are totally precise, very fast, and very fluid (depending on the MA, of course0
[2012/12/04 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I’ve heard of similar things happening with actors learning to behave like blind people… they were so good at it that the director had to order them to stumble a bit more so they would look ‘convincing’
[2012/12/04 16:08]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think I”m pretty photorealistic, and I don’t really wish to have big haping holes in my person when people view me, even on “mesh-compatible” viewers
[2012/12/04 16:08]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Grand Masters are very impressive when you get them to do demonstrations before they retire and write books
[2012/12/04 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Some say the gold Loebner prize (a photorealistic avvie you speak to) would be easier to pass than the silver prize (classic turing test) because we are primed to engage with humanlike faces.
[2012/12/04 16:09]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Like Elisha Doolittle in “My Fair Lady,” she was so good by the time Henry Higgens got through with her, that some people thought she was faking being British.
[2012/12/04 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*
[2012/12/04 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This actually reminds me of a stupid story that my meditation teacher is fond of telling… about ‘artificial’ becoming more ‘real’ than natural.
[2012/12/04 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He has some cousins living in the US of A.
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who are fond of egg pudding — something that we Portuguese are rather keen on
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rosalyn’s nieces, when they were teenagers, didn’t like orange juice, much preferred Tang
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, when they visited their grandmother recently,
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: she did some egg pudding for them
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Ah, the Turing Test… So flawed in so many ways, yet such an endlessly entertaining quest…
[2012/12/04 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have started to see some gaming avatars that are looking VERY photo real. Graphics continues to go crazily upward, quickly.
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: with real eggs, real ingredients
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Did Baudrillard have something to say about the artificial taking precedence over the real?
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: when they tasted it, they went “blargh! what’s this garbage’?”
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They were so used to artificial puddings,
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that one done with natural ingredients,
[2012/12/04 16:10]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, humans can fail it by being too erudite. The world’s greatest Shakespearen scholar was deemed to be a robot by participants in a Turing Test
[2012/12/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: would taste “like plastic” Their words) to them
[2012/12/04 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Art. The facial animation in LA Story is remarkable.
[2012/12/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really, Rhi? oh wow
[2012/12/04 16:11]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): To pass it, you have to know small talk, how to be inane, and repetitious
[2012/12/04 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: BTW, ‘photorealistic’ is a long way from being close to ‘real’. Our eyes aren’t as good or accurate as we think they are…….
[2012/12/04 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: nice weather we are having. I like cats. Nice weather we are having.
[2012/12/04 16:11]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): Artificial is by definition not Natural but can be very Real.
[2012/12/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Art
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And if you know a lot about a subject, that’s an indication that you’re a ‘bot.
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, good point
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re a PhiloBot, Rhi! 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: (now we know how Rhi can know so much about philosophy)
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (finally!)
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): click, whirr; click, whirr, Uh, what makes you say that, Gwyn?
[2012/12/04 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Did you know that you only have detail vision for a 2 percent field of view with your eyes? but it seems like more because you always concentrate looking at that two percent when detail is required.
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: +++ Out of Cheese Error +++
[2012/12/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: <— obscure Terry Pratchett joke
[2012/12/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Art
[2012/12/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Our vision is rather peculiar
[2012/12/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have to dump most of the data captured by the eye,
[2012/12/04 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: No it seems like more because the brain uses meta knowledge, ie how to find out. In this case, how to extract more information from the external world at exactly the time it needs it.
[2012/12/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: since the bandwidth toi transmit it all to the brain would be way, way too much
[2012/12/04 16:13]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): well visible light is about 1% of the electromagnetic spectrum Art
[2012/12/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well it’s not just the issue about visible light, William
[2012/12/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art is right —
[2012/12/04 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are so easily fooled about motion as well, That is why 24 frames per second will do the trick for us.
[2012/12/04 16:14]  William Shrinshee (william.foresight): thus night vision goggles for soldiers
[2012/12/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s mostly an issue of bandwidth actually 😀
[2012/12/04 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes but Art means the retina has cones (color detecting neurons) in the center but at the edge it has rods (which only detect light and shade) so what you REALLY see is sharp focus full color in the center of a scene and colorless blurring at the edges but the mind fools you into thinking you see crystal clear full color all around.
[2012/12/04 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: 24 frames per second doesn’t always do the trick…
[2012/12/04 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The mind fools us all the time lol
[2012/12/04 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think what I’m alluding to is that photorealism is almost upon us with computer 3d graphics, only because the bar is not that high……
[2012/12/04 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that my weirdest experience when I was very very young was suddenly realising I could see through my hand…
[2012/12/04 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Art — Retina displays 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:16]  נүℓ sняιηsнεε  (jyllie.nightfire): o.O
[2012/12/04 16:16]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yeah. But too many people think I’m real as it is, don’t know if I want photorealism, although I might like to try.
[2012/12/04 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re supposed to have the same resolution as our eye’s retina, when viewed from a certain distance
[2012/12/04 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie. a 2 percent field of view is approximately the diameter of your thumb at arms length. That is your detail vision in a scene, believe it or not.
[2012/12/04 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: We have passed it in some cases. I defy anybody to tell that the oceans lakes of Pandora were CGI.
[2012/12/04 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: (I believe it, Art. My primary tried out Denett’s playing card test, which reveals the limits of human vision)
[2012/12/04 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: very true
[2012/12/04 16:17]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I used an old avatar, just the face, on Facebook, and was asked if that was a real photo of me. Not nearly as detailed as my present face
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: in another 5 years, SL will be photorealistic, just because it won’t be something extraordinary to be, I mean, everything will be photorealistic by then
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: tricks of light!
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Pixel Ghost: Do you think SL will still be here in 5 years?
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: It better be!
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: this is my home!
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Pixel — yes, of course it will 😀
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or something like it, Pixel.
[2012/12/04 16:18]  leggs Loopen: i must be goin. ty so much for this wonderful time and stimulating chat. tc and hope to see you all soon. 😛
[2012/12/04 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn SL will never be photorealistic until the texture sizes of an object are allowed to increase beyone the current levels, no?
[2012/12/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take care, leggs!
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, leggs!
[2012/12/04 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: did you join the group leggs?
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks for joining my group and great to meet you
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: would turing test passing bots make Sl’s future les likely, more, or make no difference?
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: ByeLeggs. Come again!
[2012/12/04 16:19]  leggs Loopen: yep yep
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: SL would probably need a completely technology overhaul to go there.
[2012/12/04 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: cool!
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: But what does it matter?
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Pixel Ghost: Byeee leggs!
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Samara Nikitin: I’m gonna scoot too 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: thus… five years. To give time for all computer graphics cards to have 10 or 20 GBytes of RAM, then you can have larger textures 😉
[2012/12/04 16:19]  leggs Loopen: this one and rhis ty
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Samara Nikitin: *waves*
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I wonder. Some people think that most of the people they meet in SL are ‘bots anyway
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: We also need Google Fiber, Gwyn. :/
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That too!
[2012/12/04 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: we would be even more plagued by ‘bots hehe
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Samara
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me waves to samara
[2012/12/04 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Gwyn and bandwicth for all at 1 ghz
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, I’m afraid it’s scooting time for me too
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Rhi
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh gosh everybody is leaving.
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice to see you though 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Pixel Ghost: It was nice to see you all. Thank you for an enlightening discussion 🙂
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: bye Rhi:)
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not! lol … then again. I’m not anybody
[2012/12/04 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: no leaving allowed. Throws chairs in the way…..
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, the time goes by too fast; nice to see you too, Gwyn
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See you, Pixel!
[2012/12/04 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: tackles Rhi
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Pixel Ghost: I’m going to find that sweater!
[2012/12/04 16:20]  Pixel Ghost: I found the group 😉
[2012/12/04 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: actually has everybody said what they wish to say?
[2012/12/04 16:21]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Pixel, good shopping
[2012/12/04 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: Trill Zapatero is the maker and Boho Hobo is the store, Pixel
[2012/12/04 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: I had a link to that place but I lost it when I crashed….
[2012/12/04 16:21]  Rhiannon Oset of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me giggles at the vision of a clothed and a naked woman wrestling. Shouldn’t there be a couple of pose balls for that?
[2012/12/04 16:21]  Pixel Ghost: Yay! I can find the store without doing the whole hunt!
[2012/12/04 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: ahhh may as well end…MY TIME IS UP!
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