THINKERS NOVEMBER 20 2012: DOXXING

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/11/20 15:31]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): haha
[2012/11/20 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay!
[2012/11/20 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is….Who is more fanciable? Extie or Gwyn? Actually, no,,the topic is…
[2012/11/20 15:31]  lolli Sapphire: Wonders where non thinkers go…
[2012/11/20 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: when is ‘doxxing’ (the act of publishing the RL details of a psuedonymous person) justifed?
[2012/11/20 15:32]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): haha
[2012/11/20 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: drum roll
[2012/11/20 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: When they commit a crime
[2012/11/20 15:32]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): where come this “doxxing” word come from?
[2012/11/20 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: how do they commit a crime?
[2012/11/20 15:32]  Professorette Violet Ninetails (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I meant to look it up but forgot….how did that name come about–‘doxxing’?
[2012/11/20 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: A real crime, not a phony-baloney crime. :/
[2012/11/20 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: No idea.
[2012/11/20 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Urban Dictionary to the rescue!
[2012/11/20 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: do you know, Gwyn?
[2012/11/20 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah
[2012/11/20 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Americanism
[2012/11/20 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Out of my league, I’m afraid 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe someone called John Dox was teh first guy ever doxxed, so…
[2012/11/20 15:34]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): doxa is ignorance in sanscrit
[2012/11/20 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Bela
[2012/11/20 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: We must remain in the dark with regards to the origins of this term, I am afraid.
[2012/11/20 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow
[2012/11/20 15:34]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): don’t thing has anything to do with it lol
[2012/11/20 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is now impressed with Bela!
[2012/11/20 15:34]  lolli Sapphire: I  would  like to know if u mean reveal detail within Sl like in the profile. What type of details and who is revealing them self or someone else
[2012/11/20 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who knows! Maybe the person coining the name was familiar with Sanskrit!
[2012/11/20 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/
[2012/11/20 15:35]  Professorette Violet Ninetails (ataraxia.azemus): But I like the Sanskrit angle 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:35]  Professorette Violet Ninetails (ataraxia.azemus): Okay…yeah. It’s a corruption of “documents,” (.docs) I think….
[2012/11/20 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Me too!
[2012/11/20 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: So Art here suggests committing a crime means you wave your rights to anonymity goodbye. But what crimes can you commit as a peudonymous poster or avatar?
[2012/11/20 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh,
[2012/11/20 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can do scambots, like the one hitting Zo!
[2012/11/20 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Forcing someone to suicide.
[2012/11/20 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. That’s hard, Art
[2012/11/20 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scamming is definitely possible.
[2012/11/20 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean adopting a pseudonymous identity online in general versus the rights (if any) to know who you are dealing with.
[2012/11/20 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, deceit — for paedophilia for instance
[2012/11/20 15:36]  lolli Sapphire: Well i have spent time with greifers
[2012/11/20 15:37]  lolli Sapphire: And they love to find out rl on other people
[2012/11/20 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah..
[2012/11/20 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure!
[2012/11/20 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: how about doxing for the crime of doxing? haha
[2012/11/20 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Art
[2012/11/20 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually griefers sounds like a good example — abusing anonymity is their thing.
[2012/11/20 15:37]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): haha
[2012/11/20 15:37]  lolli Sapphire: True
[2012/11/20 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ironical how “Anonymous” is a group of master hackers who probably specialize in doxxing…
[2012/11/20 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: In the nineties I was heavily into the Newsgroups, groups were routinely destroyed by Trolls. I would have loved to dox them.
[2012/11/20 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: does anybody have the right to anonymity/ psuedonymity?
[2012/11/20 15:38]  lolli Sapphire: They use multiple avatars befriend ppl even pay people to.uncover details
[2012/11/20 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: depends on the country you’re in.
[2012/11/20 15:39]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I don’t think anonimity is a right, it’s just a stratefy
[2012/11/20 15:39]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): *strategy
[2012/11/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said: depends on the country
[2012/11/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In some, it’s an unalienable right 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On others, it’s just wishful thinking 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anonymity ‘could’ be a right, but only when used for good! heh
[2012/11/20 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On others, not even that (think North Korea!)
[2012/11/20 15:40]  lolli Sapphire: I think ppl don’t really want true anonymity
[2012/11/20 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: which do you think will win out in the end?
[2012/11/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Art 😉 But what defines “good” and “not good” are the courts 😉
[2012/11/20 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: why not, Lolli?
[2012/11/20 15:40]  Professorette Violet Ninetails (ataraxia.azemus): I do!
[2012/11/20 15:40]  lolli Sapphire: And will reveal aspects of themselves
[2012/11/20 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anonymity is much more than just a name, I would like to add…
[2012/11/20 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lolli: it’s interesting to see, this is a generational issue. Earlier generations (pre-Facebook) desired privacy and anonymity. The current generation is freaked out by it.
[2012/11/20 15:41]  lolli Sapphire: Oh i would agree lots of reasons. Pride mostly
[2012/11/20 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is actually well-researched
[2012/11/20 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh. Yes I agree. We all give away more of our true selves than we realise. Sometimes somebody reveals aspects of their private life to me, and I feel compelled to reciprocate.
[2012/11/20 15:41]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I’m totally pre-Facebook lol
[2012/11/20 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the days where freedom of expression was not so widespread, people tended to value anonymity/pseudonimity, because it was hard to get…
[2012/11/20 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: These days, getting a date on Facebook is important, so you need to get rid of anonymity 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: teen and twenty something Facebookers have adopted strageties for partial anonymity. They don’t want parents on their true social networks for example.
[2012/11/20 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: That is, until the post facebook generation try to get a job only to be turned down becaise their prospective boss found their FB posts of them blind drunk.
[2012/11/20 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I don’t 😉
[2012/11/20 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: indeed — that’s the trouble. It will take another generation to fix what the current generation has been brought up with.
[2012/11/20 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Did you see the tumblr that someone make of racist twitterers? It turns out some of those shown on that tumblr have had rl problems because of it.
[2012/11/20 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, do you believe if you spend a lot of time with somebody in Sl, you get a pretty good idea of what they are like in RL? Not how they look but personality?
[2012/11/20 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: you know, many teens and such often completely ignore that their parents are on Facebook, under different accounts, all eager to get dates 😉
[2012/11/20 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Extie — but of course there are professional actors in SL too
[2012/11/20 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and those are hard to ‘read’
[2012/11/20 15:43]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I know by experience that that’s not true Extie
[2012/11/20 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: What is not true?
[2012/11/20 15:44]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): it’s not an actor thing
[2012/11/20 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say that there are exceptions, yes, but it’s the same kind of exceptions that you get when you meet someone for the first time iRL
[2012/11/20 15:44]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): that you can know how somebody is in RL
[2012/11/20 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm. You can certainly have an *idea*, Bela
[2012/11/20 15:44]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): by interacting with a SL avi
[2012/11/20 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It will be as wrong or as right as interacting with that person iRL 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I enjoy SL roleplaying a lot. The wall is somewhat destroyed with full disclosure. Though I myself don’t really enforce anonymity for me.
[2012/11/20 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, a compulsive liar iRL will also go a long way to make sure that nobody figures out how they are “in reality” (whatever that means)
[2012/11/20 15:45]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Hmm I’ve had close relationships with people here in SL, and they don’t know anything about my RL persona
[2012/11/20 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might have misunderstood Extie!
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: No not how they are…I mean, I could say i am happy and fully awake but my primary might be miserable and yawning. But that is moment by moment mood swings. I mean a person’s general personality. For instance, you would probably suppose my primary is quite good at making up poems on the spot..
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought we were talking about how people are — their personalities,
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not much good at role-playing.
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and not what their name on the ID card is — which says nothing about their personality
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I do suppose so, Extie!)
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: That is what all the best role players say when in character, Zo;)
[2012/11/20 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the same happens iRL too. It’s a bit harder to hide emotions, but most people don’t pay attention anyway
[2012/11/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol @ Extie’s comment to Zo
[2012/11/20 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ever hung out in a SL newbie area? The first thing people ask you is where you are from and how old you are…..
[2012/11/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, personality is not the same thing as persona
[2012/11/20 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: would the Web be better if there was no anonymity?
[2012/11/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: oh yes! a/s/l is traditional 😀
[2012/11/20 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, Art, that’s pretty annoying….
[2012/11/20 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: what does “better” mean in that context?
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Better for ad companies? Sure.
[2012/11/20 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: The web would be better ONLY for advertisers if there was no anonymity
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Better for companies doing ads? Sure.
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: What, do I need to show my papers? Passport?
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it true that in early days of Sl nobody ever asked about RL details?
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): My RL personality is very different to the personality of some of my SL alts
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Better for Governments? Sure.
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Better for scammers? Oh sure!
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: …
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: whoa, what was that?
[2012/11/20 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: chat glitch
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): oh my chat went blank
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Dunno, but it wiped out my chat window..
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: same here!
[2012/11/20 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: me too
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have a hacker among us!
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): never saw that before
[2012/11/20 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me points finger
[2012/11/20 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: It was those evil spies that hate our freedom!
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought it was my viewer acting up lol
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): was it a hack?
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Art!
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Didn’t seem to affect the screen…
[2012/11/20 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: The screen stopped though
[2012/11/20 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: for a sec
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: That blue guy is suspiciously quiet!…
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Ari (arisia.vita): 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): haha
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Ari (arisia.vita): I saw it too
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I guess the screen had to digest the input, but didn’t display it.
[2012/11/20 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: string him up!
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it WAS an object
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: named Object
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: which did that!
[2012/11/20 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: You leave my Ari alone!!
[2012/11/20 15:50]  Ari (arisia.vita): ty
[2012/11/20 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: He is a sweety, would never harm anybody..
[2012/11/20 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ari is innocent!
[2012/11/20 15:50]  Ari (arisia.vita): correct
[2012/11/20 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/11/20 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: But I think we should all know his RL details, just in case…
[2012/11/20 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ari is always innocent!
[2012/11/20 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, do tell
[2012/11/20 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie
[2012/11/20 15:50]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): haha
[2012/11/20 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: “I was born under a rock in the bottom of Loch Ness. “
[2012/11/20 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Were you, mmh?
[2012/11/20 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would explain a lot.
[2012/11/20 15:51]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well I think anonimity makes the whole magic of SL possible
[2012/11/20 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: I came from the inside of a baby making prim bot.
[2012/11/20 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good point, Bela
[2012/11/20 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: so WHO has the right to reveal RL details, if the anoymous person should be exposed?
[2012/11/20 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if SL were like Cloud Party, would we be having this conversation? 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I was born at 26 years old. and very very wise
[2012/11/20 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/11/20 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: legal bodies? Individuals?
[2012/11/20 15:52]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I don’t think it’s a right, it’s just a necessary part of the game
[2012/11/20 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie. This is a problem, ethical and legal
[2012/11/20 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Legally, the answer is simple (it usually is)
[2012/11/20 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except for some cases, trials are normally public 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think in SL, there is a cultural meme to ‘go with’ whatever persona people appear to be.
[2012/11/20 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah.
[2012/11/20 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: the ‘when in rome’ rule.
[2012/11/20 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: when somebody says ‘my avatar is just like my RL self’ we just go along with that, even though we probably have no real reason (yet) to believe it.
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it’s an old convention
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: actually..what can you really KNOW about anybody in SL?
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: As Mark Twain once observed… You can sometimes get away with breaking the law, but a *custom* openly transgressed invites sure and swift punishment.
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s even part of an Internet RFC!
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, you can know traits of their personality
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): wow good quote Zo
[2012/11/20 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and sometimes their level of education and some of the background
[2012/11/20 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: I make sure to be very careful to not mention any rl information I might know about those in the same area in SL. It just takes a bit of concentration sometimes if I know the RL person well.
[2012/11/20 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nice one, Zo.
[2012/11/20 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, Art, I tend to have the same problem too; and, reversely, I saw others doing the same as well, related to myself
[2012/11/20 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Jamie sometimes makes comments about me, her impressions of what I am like. And they are very accurate.
[2012/11/20 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: She knows “you” — your personality — well
[2012/11/20 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: well I have spent more time with her than anybody.
[2012/11/20 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I tend to believe that except for con artists, compulsive liars, and actors, pretty much everybody will reveal traits of their personality in SL
[2012/11/20 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: given enough observation time — i.e. a close relationship
[2012/11/20 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Art mentioned advertisers..why do they need to know RL names?
[2012/11/20 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Allegedly the marketing database is worth more if you have names in it — “proving” that you have “better” data 😉
[2012/11/20 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Me too, Gwyn. I think we all believe there are aspects of personality that cannot be faked, and those are what we build friendships and romances on in SL.
[2012/11/20 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It doesn’t prove anything, but, alas, marketeers are not rational beings 😉
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I’m not a compulsive liar or an actor or a con artist, but I’m a schizoid person 🙂
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s hard to *consistently lie* about your personality traits,
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: except for those cases
[2012/11/20 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: I only have a few friends that live in my RL area that are in SL. Most are SL friends of who I know varying degrees of information about. Over time, the more I interact, the more I tend to know about sl friends.
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Like that episode of The Prisoner, Bela?
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, good point, Bela (and sorry to hear that!)
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art; yes
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that is pretty universal…
[2012/11/20 15:58]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Oh I never saw The Prisoner Extie
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder what affect it would have if everybody in RL had their name hovering above them, as we do here?
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): being schizoid is not so bad lol, it’s just a personality type
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: *effect..
[2012/11/20 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have a penchant for puns and lame jokes, it is hard to hide that aspect of personality…. haha
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): schizoid is not the same as schizophrenic btw
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You saw that episode of “Lie To Me” when a guy did invent an application for the mobile pohone that did just that, Extie?
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: no.
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yoiu should!
[2012/11/20 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: OK:)
[2012/11/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s scary. The episode is CLEARLY a pun on Zuckerberg,
[2012/11/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but it shows something even more evil than Facebook
[2012/11/20 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: FB is evil?
[2012/11/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and which will be an immediate success as soon as someone implements it
[2012/11/20 16:00]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Hmm I wouldn’t mind to have a name tag in RL as long as I could change it every week
[2012/11/20 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: I am proud to say that my Facebook account is NOT rl based… haha
[2012/11/20 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I consider that anything run by the Russian Mafia is not necessarily angelically good…
[2012/11/20 16:01]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Facebook is evil I believe, yes
[2012/11/20 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: And I’m happy to *still* not have a FB account.
[2012/11/20 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Nor is mine. And I make no attempt to disguise it. I say right there on my profile that I am a fictional character not intended to represent any RL individual.
[2012/11/20 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: MySpace seems to be back from the ashes… 😉 or so I’ve heard
[2012/11/20 16:01]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I will never have a FB accountçI’m a conscience objector
[2012/11/20 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh. You don’t have enemies, Extie. You’re lucky 😉
[2012/11/20 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: A few months ago, Twitter subsituted your RL name for your Twitter home page and put your internet name secondary. Another blow to anonymity.
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I missed that, Art
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *scratches head*
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I still don’t really understand what it’s good for. I don’t even know what I’m missing. :/
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll check that later
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: zo: think — why did Zuckerberg invent Facebook?
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: well I have to be extra nice. Often I want to post a remark but I have to stop just in case it angers the recipient and they ban me.
[2012/11/20 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: Twitter is good for following Specific information from experts. VERY VERY good for that. Not good as a social network though.
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): now in Youtube they try to force you to use your RL name too
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: to atone for facemash?
[2012/11/20 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: extra nice is good
[2012/11/20 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: ??
[2012/11/20 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no idea what facemash is,
[2012/11/20 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but Zuckerberg created Facebook as a DATING SITE.
[2012/11/20 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that’s why it’s a success.
[2012/11/20 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Ut!
[2012/11/20 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s what 99% of all users do in Facebook.
[2012/11/20 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, the remaining don’t.
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And those write articles about how good for business, social networking, etc,. Facebook is
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh..well maybe I got the name wrong. But Zukerberg’s first idea was a site where you rated the attractiveness of college girls, like hotornot.
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly
[2012/11/20 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Facebook is mostly used among those I know as a contact with friends for those who have no other internet knowledge…. haha
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ah yes I saw the movie
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was just meant to be a dating site, and that’s exactly what it is.
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: only 1% use it that way
[2012/11/20 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t buy that stat, GWyn
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh.
[2012/11/20 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s the problem with statistics!
[2012/11/20 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Parochial vs. Global
[2012/11/20 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: It was so popular, the university’s website crashed, but he was villified for it. if you believe the film.
[2012/11/20 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Get a wrong sample, and you infer wrong conclusions.
[2012/11/20 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Dating is an activity only for the single and interested. That isn’t the majority of Facebookers.
[2012/11/20 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why “only for the single”? 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, you live in SL!
[2012/11/20 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: point taken
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Where “everybody cheats” 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: I am a SL virgin!
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: facebook is just — global cheating
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I’m sure people in FB lie about themselves more than we do in SL, many people won’t even be conscious of doing it
[2012/11/20 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: Never had slex, never considered it
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: I can see how it could work as a dating site. You can review lots of people and you have your friends around to help judge likely prospects, too.
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so am I, but nobody believes me, Art 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: You are missing out, Art!
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: extie: exactly
[2012/11/20 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2012/11/20 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One day, someone will publish The Truth About Facebook
[2012/11/20 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They better do that anonymously,
[2012/11/20 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Facebook is just a data collection network for advertising
[2012/11/20 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or the Russian Mafia will find them 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That came later, Art. Much later
[2012/11/20 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, it was Microsoft who came up with the idea of putting ads on facebook
[2012/11/20 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: We that is what it is now
[2012/11/20 16:07]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): What marvels me is that people don’t get tired of being themselves, posting pictures of themselves and so on… isn’t that boring?
[2012/11/20 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: years after it had been launched
[2012/11/20 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: It is mostly rubbish, but if you are very fortunate you may meet somebody who really knows how to get into your mind and fill it with images that leave you supremely turned on.
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, dating sites are the BEST places to sell ads. Really!
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Extie”
[2012/11/20 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha Bela, and the answer is NO! people never tire of promoting themselves! haha
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: No Bela. It is not boring to the person and their friends.
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Extie
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not boring at all
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For them 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes I fear that’s the case Art hehe
[2012/11/20 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most people are in love with their egos 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:09]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Well maybe that’s why I’m so special lol
[2012/11/20 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: I am on the Social Network Plurk and there are a certain percentage of people that feel the need to announce their every emotion when it happens.
[2012/11/20 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I think FB and twitter are often like public spaces, where you can walk past people and hear their conversation and maybe it seems pointless to you, but it was never intended for your ears.
[2012/11/20 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: leading us to the “emotion generation”. I feel, therefore I am.
[2012/11/20 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like the comparison, Extie .D
[2012/11/20 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good image!
[2012/11/20 16:10]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ah interesting Gwyn
[2012/11/20 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Typical post on Plurk ” I have a headache….”
[2012/11/20 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can’t claim credit for that, Bela — I’m just repeating words
[2012/11/20 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Sherry Turkle has said we are becoming a generation who no longer think ‘I have a feeling, I need to make a call’ but ‘I need to make a call; I want a feeling’.
[2012/11/20 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: “I ate a burrito for lunch!”
[2012/11/20 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would agree with Sherry
[2012/11/20 16:10]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): in the end all this will result in a general change about the concept we have as humans of being “me”
[2012/11/20 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: So you should. No arguing with the great Sherry.
[2012/11/20 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which, in turn, might not be so bad 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie
[2012/11/20 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: she is one of my FB ‘friends’ but I am too in awe of her to start a chat when she is online.
[2012/11/20 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh
[2012/11/20 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Who is that person?
[2012/11/20 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: She writes about identity
[2012/11/20 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and virtual identity and so forth…
[2012/11/20 16:12]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes I think in the end this internet thing will lead to a new concept of what we are as individuals
[2012/11/20 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Sherry Turkle is a professor at MIT, a psychologist who specialises in the way technology affects our perceptions of self, and identity.
[2012/11/20 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: We will all be victims of Attention Deficit Disorder
[2012/11/20 16:13]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): a new way of understanding identity, yes
[2012/11/20 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I most certainly hope so, Bela, but right now it requires an effort to *think* about it, and most people don’t want to think much…. they just want to feel <wink> 😉
[2012/11/20 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: she wrote the books ‘life on the screen’ ‘second self’ and ‘Alone together’, probably the definitive texts on identity in the digital age.
[2012/11/20 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m looking over at the TV area in my loft right now and I have relatives staying here. 4 people watching the tv, but 3 of them are on ipad or smartphones at the same time too. Slice of life example.
[2012/11/20 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: so where did we get to in this topic?
[2012/11/20 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh
[2012/11/20 16:14]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes it seems that many people are entering into a very stereotypical way of “feeling”, or rather, expressing their feelings
[2012/11/20 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just talked about the legal angle
[2012/11/20 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The ethical angle is a bit more complex.
[2012/11/20 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I totally agree with you, Bela)
[2012/11/20 16:15]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I don’t know, Extie, where did we get? lol
[2012/11/20 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say, in a society that values anonymity/pseudonymity,
[2012/11/20 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: doxxing would be a major crime 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have no idea what we were talking about…. heh
[2012/11/20 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: nor I..
[2012/11/20 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But since we’re swiftly moving away from a society where privacy is important,
[2012/11/20 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: doxxing might just become “annoying” in the future
[2012/11/20 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but not significant
[2012/11/20 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like, uh, at the same level as a student prank
[2012/11/20 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Annoying, but not important
[2012/11/20 16:17]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ah but privacy and anonimity are different things, aren’t they?
[2012/11/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe this will swing back — as said, when people start losing jobs because of their lack of privacy on the ‘net — things might get back to a more sane world again
[2012/11/20 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: I am very dubious of the idea that if you provide a RL name that makes you more trustworthy. I still do not know you and you still have to earn my trust, regardless of whether your name is ‘gwyn’ or really IS Gwyn.
[2012/11/20 16:17]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): privacy is a right, anonimity isn’t, I think
[2012/11/20 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: If you want to talke about privacy problems… how about General Petraeus?
[2012/11/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on the country, Bela :()
[2012/11/20 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: anonymity on the interwebs is a form of privacy. So privacy is the big pie and anonymity but a chuck of it.
[2012/11/20 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In most European countries, both are unalienable rights
[2012/11/20 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Anyonymity is just what we ARE, inititally.
[2012/11/20 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: chunk
[2012/11/20 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anonymity = privacy about your personal data
[2012/11/20 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I agree, this is not universal from a legal point of view.
[2012/11/20 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Alternative names aren’t ONLY about anonymity, they are also about defining an aspect of personality.
[2012/11/20 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: If you meet me for the first time, ever, I am an anonymous person to you. But then, as you get to know me I become PSUEdonymous, because you have some idea of what I am like, but not how far that ties to my primary.
[2012/11/20 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s another aspect, art, but one little cared about in purely legal terms,
[2012/11/20 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s why I was saying that ethically things are a bit more complicated 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:19]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): oh but I understand anonimity as a personal choice… nobody forces you to use FB or SL
[2012/11/20 16:19]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): but privacy is a fundamental right, not a choice
[2012/11/20 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh good explanation, Bela! Now I finally understood why some countries don’t see anonymity as a right!
[2012/11/20 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: do you have the right not to be photgraped if in a public place?
[2012/11/20 16:20]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): If I’m at home I’m in my privacy, but I’m not anonymous
[2012/11/20 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: Incidentally, in many states you can legally change your name or use pseudonyms without getting permission from anybody — as long as there’s attempt to defraud anyone, evade justice, etc.
[2012/11/20 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That troubled me for years lol
[2012/11/20 16:20]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I believe you have Extie, yes
[2012/11/20 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Bela, but it is now getting to the point where you ARE forced to use major parts of the internet with rl identity.
[2012/11/20 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Legal right or moral right, Extie? Again, it depends on the country!
[2012/11/20 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On some, for instance, if you’re labeled as a ‘public person’, different laws apply to you
[2012/11/20 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I believe you do not. If you happen to walk past in the background while I get a photo of my family, you have no right to demand I ask permission before I get it printed.
[2012/11/20 16:21]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): No nobody is forced to use the internet Art
[2012/11/20 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: yes they are.
[2012/11/20 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And by becoming a ‘public person’ you forfeit the right NOT to be phoptographed in public
[2012/11/20 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: You know about the Pro basketball player who changed his name to Meta World Peace?
[2012/11/20 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/11/20 16:22]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): no what happened to him Art?
[2012/11/20 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, “name” is just a tiny part of anonymity/pseudonymity
[2012/11/20 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: At what point does the use of something become so ubiquitous that your are compelled to use it as well, even if it is not, strictly speaking, forced upon you?
[2012/11/20 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sports casters refuse to call him by his legal name and call him by his previous name Rod Artest.
[2012/11/20 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A name is just a social convention; it’s easier than to yell “hey you” and expect the right person to turn their head back 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: Like “The Artist Formerly Known as Prince And Who Is Now Prince Again”? 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:23]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I wouldn’t use SL if it didn’t give me anonimity, but that’s a personal choice
[2012/11/20 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: TAFKAP
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I’d say, when governments start demanding that you “have” or “use” something because it’s ubiquitous 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. phones
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: a bank account
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: ..reminds me. When somebody wants me to find them in a crowded place in Sl, they often say (in text chat) ‘over here!’ as if that has direction like the spoken word does:)
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and, in many countries, Internet access
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): haha the Artist formerly known as the Artist
[2012/11/20 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: I used to sign my emails with TAFKAHY, The Artist Formerly Known As Hey You
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (oh yes, nice point, Extie)
[2012/11/20 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: no way Art — really??? hahahahahah
[2012/11/20 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: truth
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shakes head*
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and giggles
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Over here!
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): hehe
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Over here!
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Looks around..
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): lol
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Over here!
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: social conventions are hard to shake off 😉
[2012/11/20 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Guess I do not speak, then.
[2012/11/20 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bela: imagine a future where your government demands you log in to SL to do tax refunds 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Right. Like every store in Sl with multiple floors has a staircase, even though we could just float up there.
[2012/11/20 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We laugh at that in 2012,
[2012/11/20 16:26]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ah yes that would be horrible Gwyn
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but in 1995 I used to laugh at the idea that the local revenue service would one day “demand” my email address
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: and you always take the stairs! even when it is some bloody awkward spiral staircase that you keep falling off.
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought this would not be possible!
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): good point Extie lol
[2012/11/20 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are now learning how insightful it was for Philip Rosedale to respect anonymity as he did when starting Second Life.
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe true, Extie
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): although there are stores without staircase 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Philip is a die-hard netiquette fan
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes Art
[2012/11/20 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luckily for us
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: OO three minutes left..so last question: which is better: a world where anybody can be doxxed at any time, or a world in which one can always hide behind a psuedonym?
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One day, the world will thank Philip lol
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we’re all in the latter, Extie
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): a world where one can hide, always!!!
[2012/11/20 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m voting for having pseudonyms but not call it hiding.
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I guess that answers it!
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: OK!
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear, hear, Art. Well said!
[2012/11/20 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Well then my time is up!
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