[2012/10/09 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you’re over 7 years old? I didn’t think that was possible unless you were a Linden. ::eyes Extie suspiciously::
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Are ideologies harmful to humanity?
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Hi Bryce
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might not be awake by then, Scarp…
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: I rezed in June or July 05.
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: /me is over 8 years…
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is over 8 years old and most definitely not a Linden, either
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Scarp Godenot: my horn honks when you click the bulb btw….
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me has to try that!
[2012/10/09 15:32]  Squiggle Clown Horn B: Supergrade Berliner honked Scarp’s horn.
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: so one question that sprang to my mind is..can you live without an ideology?
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Squiggle Clown Horn B: Gwyneth Llewelyn honked Scarp’s horn.
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you can’t live without beliefs, but you can without an ideology.
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Squiggle Clown Horn B: Belabeltz Resident honked Scarp’s horn.
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m sure you can live without much of one…
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: I think we need to define what an idealogy is, right?
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m thinking of ideology as a consistent, closed system that rejects any contradiction as inconsistent with it’s basic premises
[2012/10/09 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, then we have to see the difference between ideologies, religions, philosophies, beliefs, and your favourite football club
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh nice definition! Are there any such things?
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ideologies are most harmful when they are unconscious
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, and yes, you have to have at least *one* of those to live
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Supergrade Berliner: If we are citizens — does our country choose our idiology for us.
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: agreed!
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: Can an idealogy be any set of cultural values?
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: “a system of ideas and ideals, esp. one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy” I tend to focus on the ‘ideals’ part of that.
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, only if we broaden the sense to the point of near meaninglessness.
[2012/10/09 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): When I think of ideologies, I think of Marxism, Nazism, liberalism.
[2012/10/09 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: i·de·ol·o·gy
    [ahy-dee-ol-uh-jee, id-ee-] Show IPA
 noun, plural i·de·ol·o·gies.
 the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group.
 such a body of doctrine, myth, etc., with reference to some political and social plan, as that of fascism, along with the devices for putting it into operation.
 Philosophy .
 the study of the nature and origin of ideas.
 a system that derives ideas exclusively from sensation.
 theorizing of a visionary or impractical nature.
[2012/10/09 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: So is the point of an idealogy is that it is fixed and unchangeable?
[2012/10/09 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re using 1 and 2, right, Extie?
[2012/10/09 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess so.
[2012/10/09 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, well, it can change–Marxism-Leninism certainly did. The point is that nothing will falsify it.
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that.
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Bryce Galbraith: I don’t think I’d say an ideology was etched in stone… I think it is normal for these to evolve over time.
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Rhi, you make it sound more like theology.
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me takes notes about Rhi’s definitions
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No no, I think she’s right.
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, I think it is a kind of theology
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The same kind of thinking is present in both.
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, strictly speaking it’s a “theology” without “theo”… 🙂 Or where “theo” is made optional.
[2012/10/09 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: So according to the definitions of Extie there, I think idealogies are necessary for social organization…. no?
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Bryce Galbraith: that’s where you get schisms too – when an ideology changes but the adherents are not all on board with the changes
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, some form of fundamental belief is important–or set of beliefs
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But these days you get political parties defending manifestos which they clearly claim to be non-ideological.
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I think we need some new ideology in this world
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Bryce, exactly. And hi, btw
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Bryce Galbraith: hey Rhi 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): the problem is old ideologies have failed
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bryce, agreed!
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: failed, how?
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well the world is a mess
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: When wasn’t it a mess? 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, and they are often wrong. I mean, you can have similar beliefs to an ideology and not be an ideologue–Fabian socialism v Marxism.
[2012/10/09 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nevertheless, we survived.
[2012/10/09 15:38]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): and failed beacuse nobody believes in those ideologies any more
[2012/10/09 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it possible to have an economy that is neither capitalist nor socialist but something completely different?
[2012/10/09 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I know — it’s also an ideology if you say “this is not an ideology”. It starts from assumptions, too, and tries to be consistent etc. as per the definition)
[2012/10/09 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes; it was called fedualism
[2012/10/09 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bela: depends. There are a lot of people “believing” in many ideologies.
[2012/10/09 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: that was capitalist, no?
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, again, if you broaden definitions, but then they lose meaning.
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, assuming that capitalism requires a free market
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes I believe there are alternatives to capitalism and socialism
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe, if one assumes that capitalism doesn’t require a free market
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Capitalism, the syst em of private property, profit motive, and limited government interference, was not a characteristic of the middle ages.
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that was to Extie’s question)
[2012/10/09 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As Rhi said.
[2012/10/09 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: What is our idealogy in general… don’t kill, don’t steal, each of us should have equal rights, cooperate to some extent for economic reasons….. what else?
[2012/10/09 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): James Burnham, who wrote about ideologies, thought there was too–he called it managerial society, where nameless bureaucrats control everything.
[2012/10/09 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: either the state owns capital or the individual does. What other choice is there?
[2012/10/09 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello to whoever dropped in BTW:)
[2012/10/09 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 18th century autocracies were also not strictly speaking “capitalist”, although they paved the way for them 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: sounds like Ingsoc to me, Rhi.
[2012/10/09 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, capitalism was historically run by dynasties (still is, actually); the State, at least in theory, is popular. If we have bureaucracy replcing both dynasties and the will of the people, that’s a third alternative
[2012/10/09 15:41]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Extie another choice is to abolish capital
[2012/10/09 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I’d say ownership can be spread between classes. Feudalism has capital being owned by a few, who are not necessarily the “state”. Actually, in strict capitalism, there is no real notion of a “state” IMHO
[2012/10/09 15:41]  Scarp Godenot: Feudal societies could be defined as capitalist in that most capital is controlled by the priveleged class.
[2012/10/09 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, actually Ingsoc was inspired by Burnham’s Managerial REvolution. That’s where Orwell got the idea of three bureaucratic empires that were trans-national and at perpetual war
[2012/10/09 15:41]  Supergrade Berliner: Banks seem to be above all forms of Idiology
[2012/10/09 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Ah, the socialist dream…. an optimized, frictionless society managed by objective, educated, dispassionate experts.
[2012/10/09 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: are capitalism and socialism forms of ideology?
[2012/10/09 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: but without a free market and without non-interference by the ruling class…
[2012/10/09 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, well, then, we could also define them as socialist, as they were communitarian in nature
[2012/10/09 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes!
[2012/10/09 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: yay! Then we are on topic:)
[2012/10/09 15:42]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes I think they are Extie
[2012/10/09 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: Capitalism doesn’t have a free market component, actually. It only states that accumulated capital should control the means of production.
[2012/10/09 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I disagree; although I think there are capitalist and socialist ideologies
[2012/10/09 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: why do you disagree, Rhi?
[2012/10/09 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, by definition, capitalism has a free market component
[2012/10/09 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As if ideologies are “harmful”, well, a social darwinist would say: we always had ideologies. They have lasted for as long as there are humans alive building civilizations. So one must assume that ideologies are not “harmful”, or we’d have ovolved out of them.
[2012/10/09 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s like saying gravity doesn’t have a ‘mass’ component
[2012/10/09 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then again, social darwinism is very questionable 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: Not true Rhi. Markets and trading exist outside of capitalism.
[2012/10/09 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no a social Darwinist concedes that there is, well, evolution. We might not have evolved out of them–yet.
[2012/10/09 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: could they not say we are evolving toward a decent ideology?
[2012/10/09 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But not outside of free markets, Scarp
[2012/10/09 15:44]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): when this civilization collapses (and it will happen sooner or later) there will be no capital left, humanity will have to begin from scratch again
[2012/10/09 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually… from what I know of history, I don’t see much evidence of ideological conflict in the ancient world. They fought all the time, but it was usually over tangible resources.
[2012/10/09 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, that’s a good argument, Rhi, but I would say that we can rely on the past to try to predict the future 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: like..I dunno,,,the spread of the Empire (this is back in the day when social darwinism was respectable).
[2012/10/09 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Von MIses, Hayek, even Marx, who coined the term, would say that free markets are essential to capitalism. It was Marx’s point that free markets destroy themselves–but they are destroying capitalism.
[2012/10/09 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: I’m saying free markets or controlled markets are not a factor in Capitalism. They both exist before capitalism is born. And are therefore not dependent on it.
[2012/10/09 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good point, Zo 🙂 tangible resources… like if you belonged to the right religion or the wrong one 😉
[2012/10/09 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *chuckles*
[2012/10/09 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bela: it might collapse… or evolve 😉
[2012/10/09 15:46]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I’m not sure about that Zo, if you take the Old Testament you’ll see ideologic wars I think
[2012/10/09 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Nahh, religion was just something dictated by whoever was in power. It was an afterthought.
[2012/10/09 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, there were ideological wars i the ancient world–but I think they were worsened with the rise of world religions
[2012/10/09 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: aye, I see what you mean. It was the pretext but not the real reason.
[2012/10/09 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Let’s not confuse the concept of ‘markets’ with the concept of capital formation controlling the means of production.
[2012/10/09 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wikipedia: “Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.[1] Other elements central to capitalism include competitive markets, wage labor and capital accumulation.”
[2012/10/09 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: why would ideologies be bad for humanity?
[2012/10/09 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not; Scarp. A market is an exchange; a free market is a system of voluntary exchange. A controlled ‘market’ is not a market at all, but a system of extortion
[2012/10/09 15:47]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ok Gwyn but there is no evolution without crisis or collapse
[2012/10/09 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t exchange my taxes for the benefits of the bureaucracy; they extract them at the point of a gun.
[2012/10/09 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: All markets are controlled
[2012/10/09 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Ideologies are great for humanity, Extie. Without them we’d never have any kind of social or political progress.
[2012/10/09 15:47]  Supergrade Berliner: It became that when they gave value to something with no value
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There most certainly is, Bela. What you mean is that there are no Revolutions without crisis or collapse 🙂 The R makes the difference in your sentence there :)=
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: does everyone agree with Zo?
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There is an attempt ot control all markets, and the markets always find a way to exceed the controls. Smuggling is a classic example
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes I think ideologies are necessary at some point
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: Let me rephrase that : all politically established markets are controlled.
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Bryce Galbraith: interesting point Zobeid… I think I am inclined to agree.
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t; I think that belief systems are essential to humanity, but not ideologies
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: so anyway maybe we should move on from the finer points of economics…
[2012/10/09 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There are societies–like the UK–and the US–in which tradition takes the place of ideology
[2012/10/09 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m inclined to agree more with Rhi, although the difference between “a belief system” and “an ideology” might be very thin for the average peasant 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure I get that, Rhi.
[2012/10/09 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: what is the difference between a belief system and an ideology? Is it that one is plastic and pliable the other set in stone?
[2012/10/09 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the difference is whether the system is closed, and falsifiable.
[2012/10/09 15:49]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): but why would beliefs be better or more fundamental then mere ideas?
[2012/10/09 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I like that definition, Rhi 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:49]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I don’t see why ideologies have to be closed
[2012/10/09 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not even know what that means:)
[2012/10/09 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi said it at the beginning….
[2012/10/09 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: can you explain, Rhi? Or someone?
[2012/10/09 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Here’s an example of non-ideological thinking. Greenspan was an Objectivist, a follower of Ayn Rand. That’s an ideology. As head of the Fed, though, he did something his ideology told him was wrong–he flooded the market with money–but it resulted in a reversal of the collapse of the stock market
[2012/10/09 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course the rejection of ideology would *be* an ideology. 😀
[2012/10/09 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: [15:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: I’m thinking of ideology as a consistent, closed system that rejects any contradiction as inconsistent with it’s basic premises
[2012/10/09 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So Greenspan had an open belief system; a true Objectivist, or someone like Paul Ryan, would not have done that
[2012/10/09 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, exactly!
[2012/10/09 15:51]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Rhia your example rather shows that ideologies are not closed
[2012/10/09 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it shows that one thing is the ideology; the other is what individuals do 😀
[2012/10/09 15:51]  Scarp Godenot: I think we need to define ‘belief’ here. In the context of the above arguments, belief is actually dogmatic belief. And ideology is changeable belief?
[2012/10/09 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I am part of the band/ who digs Ayn Rand/ You don’t and its all your fault/ But I must not dally/ I am off to the valey/ Along with Dagney and Galt. I thank you.
[2012/10/09 15:51]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well why can’t we say that Greenspan had an ideology, but he just wasn’t too dogmatic about it?
[2012/10/09 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If an ideology changes, it becomes a different ideology.
[2012/10/09 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie! Early poem!?
[2012/10/09 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: Is there a limit to change for that to be true Gwyn?
[2012/10/09 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: (I was struck with inspiration, gwyn).
[2012/10/09 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, let’s look at paradigm cases then. Marxism-Leninism. Marx’s theory said that capital would become so plentiful, it’s price would drop to zero. That didn’t happen. Lenin explained it as the result of imperialism. Imperialism explained *everything* that went wrong with the Marxist predictions–the first social revolution in a peasant society, the rising wages of the proletariat–everything
[2012/10/09 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I certainly don’t know, Scarp! I leave the answer to the philosophers 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s the thing, bela–a non-dogmatic belief system isn’t an ideology
[2012/10/09 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just “a belief system”. I’m beginning to understand…
[2012/10/09 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: So called communism as practiced was actually State controlled Industrial Capitalism
[2012/10/09 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed — strictly speaking, Stalin was nowhere near a communist 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:54]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ok Rhi but I don’t think we need belief systems either
[2012/10/09 15:54]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): we need ideas, theories
[2012/10/09 15:54]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): we could see Objectivism as a theory
[2012/10/09 15:54]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): a theory is falsifiable
[2012/10/09 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: But underlying everything, fundamental, is faith. Faith in god, faith in science, faith in humanity..we begin with faith.
[2012/10/09 15:55]  Supergrade Berliner: Tried tested and proved Ideas
[2012/10/09 15:55]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): exactly marxism hasn’t been truly falsified yet
[2012/10/09 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: To me, the closest thing to an ideology-free world would be something like… Somalia. The bad parts of Somalia. Where nobody gives much thought to right or wrong, or how things “ought” to be, but all that matters is which warlord, or which clan, has the most guns.
[2012/10/09 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Faith then may be needed, but not a belief system.
[2012/10/09 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: might is right, Zo?
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: I think we are trying to define cultural values as idealogy here. And that’s ok with me. In that case, idealogy is needed in order to make large societies function economically and otherwise.
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Using Somalia as an example, Zo, it tends to show what happens when a society doesn’t have even a “belief system”, much less an ideology…
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Supergrade Berliner: What about a Virtual world … trial run 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): marxism as a theory is very useful, marxism as an ideology or dogmatic belief system is a problem
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp, I agree…
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Virtual world..Does SL have an ideology?
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Might is right! The only catch is, I’ve got “Might is Right” on my bookshelf — an entertaining ideological screed by Ragnar Redbeard. (Who I think would like Somalia.)
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Bela, Marxism had the status of a dominant theory–and there are attempts to save the hypothesis. It becomes very iffy what would falsify it. I suppose if classes were to survive replicator technology and robots, that would do it.
[2012/10/09 15:56]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): that could be applied to all political and economic theories
[2012/10/09 15:57]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Oh yes SLwas founded by objectivists
[2012/10/09 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Could such a think be determined my looking at the terms and conditions I never bothered to read before choosing ‘I agree’?
[2012/10/09 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: *thing
[2012/10/09 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, SL is an interesting case. Looked from afar, it’s close to capitalism. But there are lots of pockets where capitalism, strictly speaking, doesn’t apply.
[2012/10/09 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, SL has elements of both feudalism and capitalism.
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: SL is definitely not a free market, in the pure sense.
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: agreed hehe
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The landowners are a privileged class, but you are free to ignore thm and start your own enterprises
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are no free markets in the pure sense 😉
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Philosophically speaking I think Berkely best fits SL. Because in Sl nothing exists unless somebody has the idea to create it. To BE in Sl is to be PERCEIVED.
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bela: interesting to say that “SL — a VIRTUAL world — is inspired by *objectivism* 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): lol good point Extie
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: That sounds like a challenge, Gwyn. :/
[2012/10/09 15:58]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes Gwyn 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, you just answered to Bela with the same idea I had in mind hehe
[2012/10/09 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we have Virtual Objectivism 🙂
[2012/10/09 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: Because of what later happened with so called ” Marxism”. Many today tend to give no credence to Marx’s definitions of the way that capital works. This is unfortunate as today’s economic and sociological thinkers still rely on those definitions and see them as keys to understanding economies….
[2012/10/09 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, it’s close to a free market. Consumers determine the fate of sims, if you don’t like something, you can produce it yourself, or go elsewhere. The essentials of a free market are there
[2012/10/09 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Cool. My dream to think like Gwyn inches closer.
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d hate you to think like me!
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scrp, today’s sociologists, maybe, but economists don’t rely on Marx’s notion of how capitalism work.
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): actually I find objectivism quite obtuse, and was surprised to know that those Linden guys were so unimaginative
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: awww!
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes, I think you have a point about Berkeley’s idealism here.
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: Rhiannan, you are so mistaken there. All economists have to learn Marx.
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Adam Smith
[2012/10/09 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: was SL founded on objectivism? Where did you hear that, bela?
[2012/10/09 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the worst of the bunch — Keynes 😉
[2012/10/09 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: Worst of the bunch Friedman
[2012/10/09 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes! You’re right! haha
[2012/10/09 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: What’s wrong with Keynes?
[2012/10/09 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As for SL being founded on objectivism, I find that a bit stretching the point…
[2012/10/09 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: btw, todays right wing economists dismiss Friedman as too radically liberal.
[2012/10/09 16:02]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well I found out about SL watchin a talk by… Philip Linden I think and he said he had been inspired by Ayn Rand
[2012/10/09 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: mostly that he relied on economic systems where the primary and secondary sectors would be fundamental
[2012/10/09 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Cory (I think) declared something should only exist in SL if you can change it. Is that contrary to Rhi’s notion of an ideology as essentially unchanging?
[2012/10/09 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, by now, you should realize that I’m never mistaken. lol. The Chicago School of Economics, the UCLA school, Milton Friendman, supply-siders (the list can go on and on) do not use Marx’s notions of the diminishing price of capiatl (one look at the stock market and they would have to abandon it). Social choice theory uses utilitarian notions of utility maximization, which is rooted more in British empiricism than Marx
[2012/10/09 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t even understand that, Gwyn. 😦
[2012/10/09 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m sure all leftist economists, the one who predict five out of the last two depressions, owe a lot to Marx
[2012/10/09 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: I said SERIOUS economists, Rhi… haha
[2012/10/09 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Philip was inspired to cut a hole in his ceiling and install a pully system so he could have his door life up like the doors in Star Trek did:)
[2012/10/09 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, no, it would be contrary to ideology being a benchmark of SL
[2012/10/09 16:03]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): five out of the last two? I suspect there is a hiden irony there
[2012/10/09 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, oh, you mean the ones only listened to by other academics, not government policy makers or corporate executives. Gotcha.
[2012/10/09 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: in the West, we live mostly in a society based on services. (mostly, not totally) Keynes’ way of evaluating an economy’s financial health relies too much on its industrial output for my tastes.
[2012/10/09 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bela: yes hehe
[2012/10/09 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Moi? Ironic? ::flutters her eye lashes:: I’m just a simple girl who grew up in a trailer and had to work naked for a living. I don’t know nothing about ironies, my mother did all the ironing in my place
[2012/10/09 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL
[2012/10/09 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww Rhi!
[2012/10/09 16:05]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): lol
[2012/10/09 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Looks like Rhi is gunning for your ‘most modest brilliant thinker’ Gwyn.
[2012/10/09 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: Academics such as The Chicago School, manufacture ideas to justify their previously held beliefs, this is not a true academic stance.
[2012/10/09 16:05]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well regardless of the economic theories and predictions, this civilization won’t last for ever
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unlike Marxist and leftist economists; that’s why it’s called the Dismal Science.
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): (Yes, I know that’s not why. lol)
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Civilization is a change process. Eventually it will run its course.
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: Don’t confuse Marx with Marxism
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: She gets the award easily, Extie! Actually, Rhi, remind me of asking you a question about Ethics (the discipline, not a specific system, I need some clues on a debate I’m having on someone’s blog…)
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: I would be in with a chance, only I am not modest. But I am definitely brilliant. I mean, like totally! See what I mean about a lack of modesty?
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Supergrade Berliner: It seems media controls us
[2012/10/09 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, oh, definitely not. He was a scientist; he set out observable predictions, and they were falsified.
[2012/10/09 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the only open question about *this* civilization if it will collapse or evolve.
[2012/10/09 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: do we control media these days?
[2012/10/09 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Democracy tends to focus on evolution as an alternative to revolution
[2012/10/09 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And perhaps there is a more general theory that would incorporate his theories, like relativity physics to Newtonian, but it’s not Leninism nor Mao Tse Tung thought
[2012/10/09 16:07]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I think it’s obvious that there are signs of exhaustion in our culture: that applies to economics, politics, ideologies, religions, art and everything
[2012/10/09 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: Marx’s definitions of capital and how it works have NOT been falsified. they are basic to understanding of today’s economics. I’m talking basic definitions here. You are repeating a myth.
[2012/10/09 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Although Mao was a great thinker–his analysis of the 1st and 3rd world and his On Guerilla Warfare–wow!
[2012/10/09 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: I wonder what Marx would have made of Stalinism?
[2012/10/09 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bela: I’d agree, but most people are too busy watching TV or playing on the PlayStation to notice it 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Not the wise, Gwyn. They have Xboxes.
[2012/10/09 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *snickers*
[2012/10/09 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: No Xbox! 😛
[2012/10/09 16:09]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): and I agree with what you said about collapse or evolution Gwyn, no other choice
[2012/10/09 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Marxi’s definition of capital was taht it was surplus value–not necessary for the production of goods, and not returned to the worker in form of wages. But to call marketing, distribution, management, organizing not necessary for the production of goods (which is what ‘surplus value’ is all about0 is simply wrong.
[2012/10/09 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bela: I’m voting for evolution 😉 hehe
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwn, really? I’m a Republican myself
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that born of hope or expectation, Gwyn?
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): me too Gwyn 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hah! Perhaps wishful thinking and nothing else, Extie 😉
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: So after considering this topic, I don’t think we can escape idealogy as we have defined it. Idealogy is culture.
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Bryce Galbraith: probably Marx would have rejected Stalinism as a distortion of his ideas. The main objection being that Russia had not proceeded through the necessary stage of capitalist accumulation.
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it shapes culture.
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): In my case it’s hope Extie
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And is shaped by culture too 😉
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If we define it broady enough, as culture, then I agree, Scarp
[2012/10/09 16:10]  Bryce Galbraith: just my guess anyway…
[2012/10/09 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I think culture goes beyond the beliefs promulgated by churches–even churches labelled ‘acaemia.’
[2012/10/09 16:11]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I agree Scarp
[2012/10/09 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. I like that, Rhi.
[2012/10/09 16:11]  Bryce Galbraith: he may have been horrified by other elements of Stalinism too…
[2012/10/09 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it is a reasonable hope, BTW. All our problems have solutions. It is a matter of putting them into practice in good time.
[2012/10/09 16:11]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I agree with that too Rhi
[2012/10/09 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Luisa:)
[2012/10/09 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Bryce, I think so; he was a 19th century progressive. Although he did think the socialist phase would have a dictatorial element, and thought peasants could revolt and create a tyrannical society along the way to real socialism
[2012/10/09 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi luisa!
[2012/10/09 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that the people around the Oil Crisis in the early 1970s also thought the civilization would collapse, and we’re still around 😉
[2012/10/09 16:12]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes Extie but it seems
[2012/10/09 16:13]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): it seems that we need some deep crissi to take the right decisions
[2012/10/09 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Relax. Ray Kurzweil says everything will turn out great. And to doubt his word is heresy.
[2012/10/09 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m sure it won’t collapse until 2084 when the Robotrons are perfected. :/
[2012/10/09 16:13]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): *crisis
[2012/10/09 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, the Robotrons?
[2012/10/09 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo gets the eugene Jarvis reference award for this week’s Thinkers!
[2012/10/09 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ooh good point, Bela — apparently, that’s an interesting way to explain history: progress through solving deep crisis.
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Now there is a true Faith. “Everything will turn out great” haha
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: whew I’m SO glad I won’t be around by then!
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Supergrade Berliner: I wonder if there would be a crisis — if money (paper) had some greater value.
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: (She is referring to a classic 80s videogame, Rhi)
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: it will turn out great for SOME 😉
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: History’s lesson is that outcomes are non predictable.
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, Extie. 80’s is a little before my time; I was still playing with dolls.
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: History’s lesson is that we cyclically commit the same mistakes!
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Money is not paper,
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Money is belief in money.
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I’m hoping to move to Mars before then myself.
[2012/10/09 16:14]  Supergrade Berliner: zeros and ones ?
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): good point Scarp
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: excellent definition! That’s exactly what it is 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we should redo that Bitcoin toppic by time
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Luisa.
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Gwyn, that sounds like the old saying… “What we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history.”
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: in my case, it shall be in an urn with my ashes, lol
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: good one Zo
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: and YES about history 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So true!
[2012/10/09 16:15]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): we will miss you on Earh Zo 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And a bit sad actually. We tend to learn something from most of the other sciences.
[2012/10/09 16:16]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): *Earth
[2012/10/09 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): history, as happened, is not necessarily the same as has been written down
[2012/10/09 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Not you Gwyn. You will live forever as a succession of primaries come along, one after the other, to enable you to persist in SL indefinitely. I have foreseen this.
[2012/10/09 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All hail to Philip, and Extie is his prophet!
[2012/10/09 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): history has to become more scientific to be usefull
[2012/10/09 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: aye.
[2012/10/09 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa: it is already!
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): a succession of primaries?
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah.
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you’re right about bias in history; then again, there are bias in any other field
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Where is Hari Seldon now that he’s needed (—>Luisa’s comment that history has to become more scientific to be useful)
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Primary= person behind the keyboard.
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): do the Lindens offer life extension within SL?
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bela: meaning many meatspace bodies controlling the same virtual avatar 😀
[2012/10/09 16:17]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Oh wonderful 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Bela, I’m sure they will be fine if your son or daughter takes over your avatar–you *will* live on
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Bela: beware! you will hate eternal rollbacks damnation after a while
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Supergrade Berliner: shift work ?
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Hari Seldon has been falsified.
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: so right now someone or some group is pretending to be gwyn. And maybe in the future it is somebody else but they impersonate her so well we think it is the same old Gwyn.
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Oh never thought about that 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, not, he knew there could be anomalies like the Mule, and made the 2nd Foundation to cope with them
[2012/10/09 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have to be around Extie more, Bela — read her blog, she’s always writing about that.
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Who is Hari Seldon?
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: I read somewhere that “Scientific” historians are using things like the statistical presence of certain words present in a given era, as objective evidence of certain things happening at those rates and values in those eras. I like the idea of this.
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): oh I will 🙂
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie1 You never read Asimov’s Foundation series??
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, those stories are based on outdated ideas. Like sci-fi stories about jungles on Venus. They seemed plausible at the time, but now we know better.
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, the founder of psycho-history in the Foundation series; figured out the mathematical laws of history
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: No.
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have to!
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: OK..
[2012/10/09 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s his master work, even though people love his robot stories.
[2012/10/09 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: All hail to R. Daneel Olivaw
[2012/10/09 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: And BTW the whole Foundation series is a cure for insomnia. It’s a duller slog than Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion put together.
[2012/10/09 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Not quite as bad as that, Zoe; there could still be laws of history, Scarp’s and my discussion shows that many people think it possible; whereas, we know there are no jungles on Venus
[2012/10/09 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if Asimov is naive sometimes, he pretty much describes all possible political/ideological scenarios as means to reach an end.
[2012/10/09 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Zo
[2012/10/09 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s not true lol
[2012/10/09 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: I must be hearing things. Did someone just describe the majestic LOTR as a ‘slog’?
[2012/10/09 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh.
[2012/10/09 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I am getting lost..where are we at?
[2012/10/09 16:21]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Oh no did Zo just say something bad about the LOTR and the Silmarillion? Anatema!
[2012/10/09 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, he did make the rise and fall of Galactic Empires, the possible absorbtion of the human race into a Spirit called Galaxia turn on acaedmic politics and whether the girl next door would actually publish her first novel. So Zo has a point
[2012/10/09 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes. LOTR is a great story, but Tolkien’s writing style left much to be desired.
[2012/10/09 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sure that Zo’s bedside book is the DaVinci Code… 😉
[2012/10/09 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Fair enough Silmarillion, though. That was awful.
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Although I liked the creation myth that starts it off.
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naw, naw.
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, where are we at? I call it afterglow; Sarah of Soc. Cafe calls it non sequiture
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: you know, Melkor and music and all that.
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The worst you can say about JRR Tolien is that he was writing 50 years too late 😉
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In other words, the point where we’ve been thinking too hard and too long and are now being silly
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: There is a Second Foundation Series written by Greg Bear, David Brin and Gregory Benford. It is an excellent read which I highly recommend!
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: I have them all! lol
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: yay
[2012/10/09 16:22]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Oh I think the Silmarillion id great
[2012/10/09 16:23]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): better than the LOTR even
[2012/10/09 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They actually write better than Asimov, even though obviously it doesn’t have the same naive ‘taste’
[2012/10/09 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Has flashes of Gormanghast
[2012/10/09 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh well, we lost our focus.
[2012/10/09 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: You’ve got to have something before you can lose it!
[2012/10/09 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ideologies are not harmful to humanity; losing one’s focus is?
[2012/10/09 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah…might call a close..
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