Dizzy and Zobeid at Thinkers.

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/10/02 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: (I liked The Avengers though, even though I’m not normally big on superhero flicks.)
[2012/10/02 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2012/10/02 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: According to Martin Ford, we have hit an inflection point at which technology destroys jobs faster than it creates them? Is this true? And is it a bad thing?
[2012/10/02 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: Avengers is now the number two biggest box office movie of all time…
[2012/10/02 15:34]  Dizzy Banjo: hmm, I guess it depends if your job is creating technology !
[2012/10/02 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I compare this “inflection point” with other long-predicted statistical events, such as Peak Oil. Many have foreseen it for a long time, but there’s wild disagreement about the time frame. Bottom line is, nobody will know until after it has happened (and probably not immediately even then).
[2012/10/02 15:34]  Bryce Galbraith: I’m not sure that we’re at that inflection point yet actually.
[2012/10/02 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: tech is destroying manufacturing jobs, That has been happening for a while now
[2012/10/02 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Aparrrantly some report found that the Internet created 2.6 jobs for every one it made obsolete.
[2012/10/02 15:35]  Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, I think there’s something to that Zo.
[2012/10/02 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was also my reaction when I read the article .)
[2012/10/02 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: What I think is certain is that our economy still revolves around labor… and I don’t see much change on that.
[2012/10/02 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: what about service jobs? My primary used to go to a bookstore for books, but now with Kindle..
[2012/10/02 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Luisa!
[2012/10/02 15:36]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): greetings!
[2012/10/02 15:36]  Bryce Galbraith: Well.. .another point is whether it is technology that has eliminated jobs… or is it just that the labor is being done elsewhere?
[2012/10/02 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi!
[2012/10/02 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Restaurant jobs are safe I’m thinking.
[2012/10/02 15:36]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): seeing “kimble” jsut as an acronyme … all androids do the job
[2012/10/02 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless robots start to serve people 😉
[2012/10/02 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: I dunno. I have seen plenty of new robots for perparing and serving food:)
[2012/10/02 15:37]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): manual labor .. besides all the technology hype, it’s still manual
[2012/10/02 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: crappy food though
[2012/10/02 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aw… oops… I need to go lol — hopefully I’ll still be able to come back for the rest of the discussion 🙂
[2012/10/02 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2012/10/02 15:37]  Bryce Galbraith: In a lot of the world human labor is still pretty darn inexpensive.
[2012/10/02 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: whoa
[2012/10/02 15:37]  Bryce Galbraith: Bye Gwyneth!
[2012/10/02 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: fast
[2012/10/02 15:38]  Dizzy Banjo: wow i have chat lag
[2012/10/02 15:38]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): is out-of-sight-slavery still slavery?
[2012/10/02 15:38]  Dizzy Banjo: i wonder if what I wrote will ever appear lol
[2012/10/02 15:38]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I think manual labour will soon be cheaper than electric powered machines
[2012/10/02 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: wage slavery
[2012/10/02 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: yes.
[2012/10/02 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Incidentally, I’ve got a report about Spain’s collapsing economy coming across my TV right now, on the evening news.
[2012/10/02 15:38]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ah yes Zo I’m in Spain
[2012/10/02 15:39]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): it’s collapsing all right
[2012/10/02 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: .
[2012/10/02 15:39]  Dizzy Banjo: i said – so I guess markets create jobs, if a market like books switches to ebooks because of that technology, there are often entrepreneurs that create many new markets aroudn that technology
[2012/10/02 15:39]  Dizzy Banjo: which then create jobs
[2012/10/02 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: In the past, technological revolutions have created more new jobs than they eliminated. Will the information and robotic revolution be different?
[2012/10/02 15:40]  Dizzy Banjo: for instance – books move to tablets, but tablets create the app economy and jobs
[2012/10/02 15:41]  Dizzy Banjo: nobody knew they needed apps before tablets, now they need a bloody app for everything lol
[2012/10/02 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think I saw somewhere that kindle etc. was making readers buy more books….
[2012/10/02 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Bela, really? WOuld love to get these news not from television, but instead from the people living nearby
[2012/10/02 15:41]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well I think Spain will no longer exist in 5 years
[2012/10/02 15:41]  Bryce Galbraith: I have a Kindle, ArtCrash, and yeah… the ‘one click’ purchase impulse is pretty notable 😉
[2012/10/02 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, Dizzy, that is the thing with tech. You never know how much you need it until you have it.
[2012/10/02 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: I heard that Catalonia wants to cecede.
[2012/10/02 15:42]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes and the Basque Country too
[2012/10/02 15:42]  Dizzy Banjo: i guess that the problem would be if the inflection point came before an evolution in society which made everyoen working less important
[2012/10/02 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I think Art means more incentive to buy print books?
[2012/10/02 15:42]  Bryce Galbraith: Well, that’s nothing new for the Basques though…
[2012/10/02 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: nope e books
[2012/10/02 15:42]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): but appart from secesionist regions, Spain as a state will fail
[2012/10/02 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, my mistake.
[2012/10/02 15:43]  Bryce Galbraith: actually I find I still buy plenty of regular print books too.
[2012/10/02 15:43]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): same development foreseeable according to italian regions. North vs. South
[2012/10/02 15:43]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): the Spanish state won’t be able to pay back all the debt to the German banks and so on
[2012/10/02 15:43]  Dizzy Banjo: i think the destruction of some types of jobs probably frees up large numbers of people to start to deal with different problems
[2012/10/02 15:44]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): greece flailing out too. I doubt german banks can survive with their money beeing dusted abroad
[2012/10/02 15:44]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I agree Dizzy
[2012/10/02 15:44]  Bryce Galbraith: Hmmm… maybe Dizzy… I’m not sure I can agree though.
[2012/10/02 15:44]  Dizzy Banjo: i guess that what technology or machines effectively does
[2012/10/02 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody once said that civilization advances by the number of tasks you no longer need to perform.
[2012/10/02 15:44]  Bryce Galbraith: That is, we have a good number of folks unemployed in the U.S.. … or under-employed. So far I’m not sure that has translated into focusing on other problems.
[2012/10/02 15:45]  Dizzy Banjo: yeah
[2012/10/02 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I bought a paper book that is part one of a quadralogy. To save paper the print was very small. I will be buying the other 3 for kindle. I think print books will be overtaken by ebooks very soon.
[2012/10/02 15:45]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I think the collapsing economy will be an opportunity for people with imagination
[2012/10/02 15:45]  Dizzy Banjo: i guess it really depends on if those new human resources can be focused into innovation
[2012/10/02 15:45]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the problem does not boil down to people beeing useless,
[2012/10/02 15:45]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): instead it’s about distribution of their use. part time labor
[2012/10/02 15:45]  Dizzy Banjo: which is a bit societal issue – heavily related to education and wellbeing
[2012/10/02 15:45]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): need to eliminate “unemployed” from dictionary
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): in Spain we are starting to relearn to do things with our hands
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Every turn of the business cycle involves shaking up industries and reallocating resources.
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): we can’t afford to pay plumbers anymore, for instance
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Dizzy Banjo: hmm interesting
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: so how many jobs do you think could be rendered obsolete by ubiquitous access to mobile computing?
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Dizzy Banjo: so its forcing a reskilling
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Bryce Galbraith: oh? I agree..that’s an interesting point.
[2012/10/02 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): mobiles don’t create any value
[2012/10/02 15:46]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): for example teachers, Extie 🙂
[2012/10/02 15:47]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): teachers are already obsolete
[2012/10/02 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Hmm..
[2012/10/02 15:47]  Dizzy Banjo: ha
[2012/10/02 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Machines are taking jobs away, This can kill the economy if the business model isn’t changed, I’m thinking. Consumers are needed to drive production. And they need jobs to buy stuff.
[2012/10/02 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): by far not “obsolete” but their leverage increased by different lesson types
[2012/10/02 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you can watch a video
[2012/10/02 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: My intuition is that mobile computing is a net plus.
[2012/10/02 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I think teachers will become more like supporters. The machines will teach and the teachers will be more like..well, coaches?
[2012/10/02 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): like .. listening to music
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes Extie
[2012/10/02 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you don#t need to hire an orchestra anymore which plays along your television screen
[2012/10/02 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): instead, it’S recorded music from tape
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Dizzy Banjo: i think teaching is actually a super complex human relationship
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Efficiency is not a bad thing.
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): teachers will be like coaches, and a little like policemen too lol
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): they always were
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Like, there is this education movement whereby homework is watching lectures on your ipad and what the teacher does is more like offer individual support.
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Bryce Galbraith: Yes, it is Dizzy… I’ve done a bit of teaching and it is hugely complex.
[2012/10/02 15:48]  Dizzy Banjo: recorded music is an interested example
[2012/10/02 15:49]  Dizzy Banjo: interesting*
[2012/10/02 15:49]  Dizzy Banjo: technology made it reach a peak of availability, but also worthlessness
[2012/10/02 15:49]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ack on DIzzy. Relationship … irrreplaceable by a hugable robot
[2012/10/02 15:49]  Bryce Galbraith: And really you have to thinking of teaching along with learning… learning is a complex thing too.
[2012/10/02 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: The real problem isn’t increasing efficiency, or increasing productivity. The real problem is that technology is substituting capital for labor, and our society doesn’t know how to adapt to that on a large scale.
[2012/10/02 15:49]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I was a teacher in a high school… I felt like a jailer
[2012/10/02 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: yes Zobeid, that is well said, and what I’m trying to say too
[2012/10/02 15:50]  Dizzy Banjo: technology now needs to transform music into something unique and valuable again, a scarsity
[2012/10/02 15:50]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): efficiency and productivity, underemployment … we really learned our vocables. Or got .. taught them. Mind control
[2012/10/02 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that possible, Dizzy?
[2012/10/02 15:50]  Dizzy Banjo: I think so.. Im trying 🙂
[2012/10/02 15:50]  Dizzy Banjo: but its an interesting example, as technology has destroyed many conventional jobs in music
[2012/10/02 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, “productivity” is a biased word since it’s usually measured based on labor.
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: an environmental thing? Music that adapts on the fly to your environment, so what you hear is unique to you and your moment?
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): what does that, mean Zo? “substituting capital for labor”?
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Dizzy Banjo: but those jobs are actually not worth keeping really, as the music itself has become worthless
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Dizzy Banjo: yes Extropia
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Dizzy Banjo: it makes the experience unique again
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Although you would not like that if it made a cacophony all the time.
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Dizzy Banjo: but it can go far further than the things we are doing now
[2012/10/02 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Basic economics… All economic resources can be categorized as: land, labor, capital, or entrepreneurial ability.
[2012/10/02 15:52]  Dizzy Banjo: this is just the beginning really
[2012/10/02 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: So technology is letting companies substitute capital (equipment) for labor.
[2012/10/02 15:52]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): oh I see Zo
[2012/10/02 15:52]  Bryce Galbraith: good observation Zo
[2012/10/02 15:52]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I think I get it
[2012/10/02 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: If you have too much production, which can be caused by machine production. There is no one to buy the production because there are no people with money as they don’t have jobs. So all the capital and production capability in the world cannot mean much in an economy with few consumers.
[2012/10/02 15:53]  Bryce Galbraith: We’ve had that for the past few years at certain levels Art…
[2012/10/02 15:53]  Dizzy Banjo: so i suppose the question of the debate, is it a problem ? all depends on what happens to that labor, if it translates into the other values in the economy like entrepreneurial activity
[2012/10/02 15:53]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): so that means workers are worthless now? inerchangeable?
[2012/10/02 15:54]  Bryce Galbraith: even without machines being deployed more. The downturn in the economy reduced consumption.
[2012/10/02 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: This is the myth of supply side economics in a nutshell.
[2012/10/02 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Art…. You assume that everyone (or nearly everyone) get their income from selling labor services, i.e. from having a “job”. At some point we may have to imagine a different approach.
[2012/10/02 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: You can also make a living by selling land, capital, or entrepreneurial ability. But the number of people who do is small, under the current system.
[2012/10/02 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Hans Moravec thought we should tax the hell out of the robot workforce and use the money to pay for a lifelong pension for all. The robots would then have to compete to make items we would want to buy in order to avoid bankruptcy.
[2012/10/02 15:55]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): what different approach?
[2012/10/02 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Guaranteed basic income.
[2012/10/02 15:55]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): why would the poor robots compete? lol
[2012/10/02 15:55]  Dizzy Banjo: lol that sounds pretty authoritarian and cruel to robots Extropia 😉
[2012/10/02 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: I agree Zobeid that a different model is needed in the face of easy cheap goods. That model involves redistributing wealth.
[2012/10/02 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Because if they cannot pay their taxes their company is liquidated.
[2012/10/02 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: I think it’s very hard to make a guaranteed income system work…. maybe possible, but there are serious difficulties.
[2012/10/02 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: such as?
[2012/10/02 15:56]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): ah so the companies would compete, right?
[2012/10/02 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: yes, the robot companies compete amongst themselves to sell goods to their human masters.
[2012/10/02 15:57]  Dizzy Banjo: robot war
[2012/10/02 15:57]  Dizzy Banjo: oh noes
[2012/10/02 15:57]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): hmmm sounds good enough to me 🙂
[2012/10/02 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Some form of redistribution of wealth, yeah…. but how to do it, very tricky.
[2012/10/02 15:57]  Bryce Galbraith: Hmmm… interesting Exti.
[2012/10/02 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: I had a somewhat radical idea that might work…
[2012/10/02 15:57]  Bryce Galbraith: Well, it feels like a lot of this is trying to prop up consumption where we can’t support or simply don’t need it anymore.
[2012/10/02 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah. But the war is for the mindspace of humans. The development of perfect psychological models of the human mind, the better for targetted advertisement.
[2012/10/02 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: What corporations and machines do in the face of lack of consumers presently is to REDUCE production.
[2012/10/02 15:58]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I hope the robots will be sun powered or something, not “human powered” like in the Matrix
[2012/10/02 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah, the Matrix.
[2012/10/02 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: If we placed an upper limit on personal net worth, and required people to dispense of any excess that they come into…. that would force redistribution, gradually.
[2012/10/02 15:59]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): advertisement has no future I think
[2012/10/02 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: It would make capital function more like the way labor currently functions, where each person can only provide a limited amount, and nobody can monopolize it.
[2012/10/02 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Zobeid that is called taxation.
[2012/10/02 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: that was a comment on passive consumerism, you know, The ‘robot society powerd by humans’ thing.
[2012/10/02 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: No, not taxation! That’s the wrong way to do it.
[2012/10/02 15:59]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): anyway consumerism is over
[2012/10/02 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is the ONLY way to do it.
[2012/10/02 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: No, taxation is horrible.
[2012/10/02 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I disagree, bella. I think advertisement of some form or other always has a future.
[2012/10/02 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Corporate taxation is not horrible. It is what runs the economy.
[2012/10/02 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: OO. Who agrees? Is consumerism over?
[2012/10/02 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: WB dizzy!
[2012/10/02 16:00]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes it is
[2012/10/02 16:00]  Dizzy Banjo: ty
[2012/10/02 16:00]  Dizzy Banjo: i think people are just hoping somehow we can go back to how it was before…
[2012/10/02 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: The people who exceed their net worth limit should be allowed to give away the excess to whoever they wish. Having the government take that money is the worst thing you could do.
[2012/10/02 16:00]  Bryce Galbraith: Hmmm… I don’t think consumerism is over yet.. but I think it has some limits to growth.
[2012/10/02 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: All of what we are talking about here can be changed by government policy. Consumerism is not over.
[2012/10/02 16:01]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): who needs to spend money on clothes or shoes or books or anything when you can get everything for free?
[2012/10/02 16:01]  Bryce Galbraith: Zobeid — were you in on the discussion we had somewhere kinda about that? I posited creating a new kind of ‘nobility’ for those that reach some kind of maximal net worth. Then their socio-economic status changes…
[2012/10/02 16:02]  Bryce Galbraith: .. other options become open to them but they can’t keep doing what they were before.
[2012/10/02 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I do not remember that, Bryce.
[2012/10/02 16:02]  Dizzy Banjo: i think greed is the problem, im not sure thats the same thing as consumerism really
[2012/10/02 16:02]  Bryce Galbraith: I thought there were some interesting aspects to that … if only as the background to a science fiction story 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:02]  Dizzy Banjo: althought they are of course related
[2012/10/02 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Wb Gwyn!
[2012/10/02 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks!
[2012/10/02 16:03]  Dizzy Banjo: i just hope that we move towards a model where people are encouraged to be more entrepreneurial
[2012/10/02 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: This idea that government is always bad is a myth that needs addressing. Government is the end result of a long long process starting at the beginning of humanity, to define methods that enable us to live together in large groups.
[2012/10/02 16:03]  Dizzy Banjo: and that technology enables this process
[2012/10/02 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: putting into different words: we get the governments we deserve 😉
[2012/10/02 16:03]  Dizzy Banjo: in a way I think the story of SL itself was a great model of that
[2012/10/02 16:03]  Bryce Galbraith: Well, to be honest Dizzy… while I have nothing against entrepreneurship … I would like to see other options emerge.
[2012/10/02 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think government is always bad. I’m just looking for a viable path from A to B, without having a complete revolution.
[2012/10/02 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Do you think the ‘Gameification’ of jobs could help in that regard, Dizzy? The idea that jobs should incorporate aspects of videogames?
[2012/10/02 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: We cannot live in large groups without governments.
[2012/10/02 16:04]  Dizzy Banjo: hmm, i have issues with gameification lol
[2012/10/02 16:04]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I think virtual worlds like SL are the end of consumerism: you can get everything free, or almost free… and prizes go steadily down
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Dizzy Banjo: i think people are creative and innovate because they are in the right work, doing things which they are passionate about
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, I think we’ve had prices going up for a while in SL.
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): since I found SL I stopped playing the consumerist game in RL
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah could be like educational games. Which Will Wright described as having the entertainment value of a bad lecture and the educational value of a bad game.
[2012/10/02 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: I find SL clothing prices to be high at the moment…. That is if you want the good stuff.
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Dizzy Banjo: i think we need to get many many more people doing that in their life
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: The value of a L$ has increased, but prices haven’t changed much.
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Bryce Galbraith: Dizzy… doing what in their life?
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie…. I would agree with Will Wright on that 😉
[2012/10/02 16:05]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well ok maybe that’s true, but I think prizes will go down in the future
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: So the effective price in US$ has gone up.
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): because creating stuff for SL is getting easier
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Why is that Bela? Phil Linden reckoned that SL let you experience the materialist dream in fast forward, and that this got you beyond materialism and into more spiritual pursuits in SL. Is that how it was with you?
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s great, Zo, it means content creators are getting better paid; so it’s an incentive for them to do better 😀
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well yes in a sense
[2012/10/02 16:06]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ah the LindeX exchange rates. Have to admit lost view on these
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: I still spend too much on clothes. I blame mesh….
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Dizzy Banjo: Bryce : exploring their passion creatively and productively, so that it benefits society and creates value
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Bryce Galbraith: 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that definitely describes _me_.
[2012/10/02 16:07]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I didn’t know Phil Linden had said that, I think it’s partially true
[2012/10/02 16:07]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I love mesh clothes too… but I think the thrill will soon be over
[2012/10/02 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, you know, in RL how many people have luxury mansions by the sea? But in SL it is not unreasonable to aim for such a possession.
[2012/10/02 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never had read that quote from Philip either… I must update my signature now 😀
[2012/10/02 16:08]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): exactly Extie
[2012/10/02 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bela: noooooooo I hope not! hahah
[2012/10/02 16:08]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): and the funny thing is buying things in SL gives you exactly the same fleeting satisfaction as doing it in RL
[2012/10/02 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha. Oh yes.
[2012/10/02 16:08]  Bryce Galbraith: 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:08]  Bryce Galbraith: I actually don’t buy that much in SL… but I can understand that.
[2012/10/02 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: and once you have all that you think..ok what more to life is there? Personally I always thought my friends were the most valuable thing in SL.
[2012/10/02 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That should give people some pause for thought, Bela, right?
[2012/10/02 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me blows a kiss to Extie
[2012/10/02 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah Bryce, you’ve been wearing that jacket for several years now. 😀
[2012/10/02 16:09]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): well yes I think so
[2012/10/02 16:09]  Bryce Galbraith: lol! Yes, indeed 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:09]  Bryce Galbraith: and the Pink Floyd t-shirt too 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:09]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): quality pixels don’t wear of
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Yay! Kissed by Gwyn. And I just got a lovely message from a certain shy person who looks like something from a James Cameron movie.
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): SL shows you that our consumerist society in RL is a virtual reality too
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Dizzy Banjo: im kinda only just getting back into using an avatar
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I could be mean and say that the friend of today is the enemy of tomorrow; nobody can hurt us more than a close friend, because they know us so much better; and the stranger of today will be the best friend of tomorrow 🙂 But I will not be mean and thus hush.
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Bryce Galbraith: The one I have in RL I don’t wear as much because it has gotten kinda worn…
[2012/10/02 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, Apple computer’s success shows that consumerism is at a high at the moment. People waiting in line to buy status products…..
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Dizzy Banjo: i went through a phase as a sort of glowing orb
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me winks @ Ari
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Ari (arisia.vita): 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Bryce Galbraith: Yeah Art.. I saw some folks camped out _days_ ahead of the release!
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Bryce Galbraith: unreal…
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Bryce Galbraith: I don’t even have a smartphone yet…
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Bryce Galbraith: just a reglar ol’ cell phone…
[2012/10/02 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe 3D printing will put an end to standing in line for new hardware?
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Bryce Galbraith: (although I do have my MacBook Pro )
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Dizzy Banjo: they will just make things which cant be printed somehow
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I feel old. 😦 I can remember people camping out for the release of Windows 95.
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Dizzy Banjo: which are physically desirable
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, I wonder if that’s actually a result of the recession — “buy now before you are out of money and cannot buy anything any more”. I’m not being ironic, actually, I can be blamed for having that kind of attitude….
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Bryce Galbraith: 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): lol Bryce
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Dizzy Banjo: or just known to be expensive – so they are social markers
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Dizzy Banjo: haha Gwyn..
[2012/10/02 16:11]  Dizzy Banjo: totally
[2012/10/02 16:12]  Dizzy Banjo: Over here in the UK there is a great comic artist
[2012/10/02 16:12]  Dizzy Banjo: called Modern Toss
[2012/10/02 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, I doubt many people in a line at the Apple store are thinking they won’t be able to buy later. They just want the status of being the first to get the toy.
[2012/10/02 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: If jobs really were eliminated, how would individuals be defined? because, in large part, your job is who you are.
[2012/10/02 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe, maybe, Art….
[2012/10/02 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t know really!
[2012/10/02 16:12]  Dizzy Banjo: one of his things is a big poster saying “BUY MORE SHIT OR WE ARE ALL F**KED!!!”
[2012/10/02 16:12]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): no Art I think Gwyn is right
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dizzy, Modern Toss is actually right 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): /me reads “Buy funny shit from Modern Toss: the stink of excellence in a world gone tits up!”
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): you don’t understand the Latin mentality lol
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stop buying, and bye-bye economy 😉
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Dizzy Banjo: yeh !
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe yes Bela
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: I saw another cartoon. Guy on his deathbed saying to his wife ‘I wish I had bought more crap’.
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Dizzy Banjo: lol
[2012/10/02 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: If one is short of money, one does NOT buy an apple computer…. just sayin. There are far less expensive alternatives.
[2012/10/02 16:13]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): in Spain they say: “let’s live it’s only two days” 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Dizzy Banjo: ah i should go sleep
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Dizzy Banjo: nice to chat with you all again
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: goodnight!
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Dizzy Banjo: c u!
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Bryce Galbraith: g’night Dizzy!
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): good night Dizzy 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t tell me about these things, it’s depressing! When I had money, I stupidly put it on the bank, which lost everything on the previous crisis. All the nice things I have today were bought by then. I wish I had spent it all, instead of having the banks losing it!
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, remember we meet the same time each week.
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Dizzy Banjo: i have 3:30 on tues in my gcal now
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Dizzy Banjo: 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take care, Dizzy, it was nice to see you :-.)
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Dizzy Banjo: cyas
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): good point Gwyn
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: where would we be without google?
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: I bought gold when it was $300/oz, Gwyn. 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You were clever!
[2012/10/02 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, that worked out well.
[2012/10/02 16:15]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): wow Zo god job lol
[2012/10/02 16:15]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): *good
[2012/10/02 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Smart girl 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even gold in form of jewelry would have been a fine move 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and at least you’d have some nice accesories hehe
[2012/10/02 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): today I would buy fuel
[2012/10/02 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: If the economy were to actually fully collapse, gold would be worthless. Food would be the goal.
[2012/10/02 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dang. Why are you always so reasonable, Art??
[2012/10/02 16:16]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): btw I’ve got some money in the bank and I don’t know what to do with it… what should I buy, Zo? lol
[2012/10/02 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: so anyway..the job market..expanding or shrinking thanks to new technologies?
[2012/10/02 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me thinks of buying a chicken farm
[2012/10/02 16:16]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Fuel? Oh no
[2012/10/02 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: <— obscure reference to P. G. Wodehouse
[2012/10/02 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/10/02 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there is a “Prepper” on the net suggesting 9×19 cartridges for money
[2012/10/02 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: I bought into Tesla Motors, but I know that’s a risky one.
[2012/10/02 16:17]  Bryce Galbraith: hmm… I’m not quite sure Exti. That is, I think there are other variables at play here too besides technology.
[2012/10/02 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, what I think is that “high tech” will create more jobs, but not necessarily more _qualified_ jobs
[2012/10/02 16:17]  Bryce Galbraith: I’m sure new tech. has changed the need for certain jobs…
[2012/10/02 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean, Gwyn?
[2012/10/02 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s a gradual thing, Extie. I’m sure technology is making an impact…
[2012/10/02 16:17]  Bryce Galbraith: … but I think some have just moved elsewhere… and others are just gone because there’s no demand.
[2012/10/02 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mmh for example… designing a new iPhone. That’s for the elite few. But then you’ll have hordes of small shop reps selling them — unqualified jobs
[2012/10/02 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: oh, I see..
[2012/10/02 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not sure if I’m right though
[2012/10/02 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was just the feeling I got when reading that article
[2012/10/02 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because they put a lot of focus on how much engineers at Google, Microsoft, Apple were earning
[2012/10/02 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): apple tries to kill the market of 3rd party accessories. like chips for poer cables
[2012/10/02 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): power
[2012/10/02 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: So what technology do you think could be most disruptive to jobs? I reckon autonomous vehicles.
[2012/10/02 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s true, but indirectly, you get more people owrking on distributing technology (if it’s atom-based), selling it, repairing it, mining metals for the components, working at assembly lines etc
[2012/10/02 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn except all sales will be online with a future version of or something…..
[2012/10/02 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: you still need people to pack them and the ones who deliver them! So lots of unqualified hjobs
[2012/10/02 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *jobs
[2012/10/02 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, good thinking 🙂 But the first generation will keep crashing and bumping on other things, so that will mean more mechanics hehe
[2012/10/02 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: although that’s not an “unqualified” job lol
[2012/10/02 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I dunno. The only time Google’s cars had an accident is when the human driver took control.
[2012/10/02 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So if that article meant that there will be a bigger rift between the high tech people designing stuff, and the lower class who gets unqualified jobs shuffling the tech around, well, then I would agree.
[2012/10/02 16:21]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): Hmmm I think the only thing that machines can do cheaper than people is storing information… so computers have a future, but heavy machinery hasn’t
[2012/10/02 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I have seen robot cars tear around a racetrack as well as any racedriver can. I tell you, the technology is coming along in leaps and bounds now.
[2012/10/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I was being ironical 🙂 I can agree that taxi drivers, lorry drivers and the such would be jobless, but, overall, I wouldn’t say that it will make such a huge difference
[2012/10/02 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: What can’t machines do? Basically they can’t be innovative or creative. So there will be jobs there. But because of the abundance of labor, corporations will play them off against each other and reduce their pay.
[2012/10/02 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: because the robots cars open up as many jobs as they take away?
[2012/10/02 16:22]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): robot cars may be possible, but they will be too expensive
[2012/10/02 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Cannot? Fundamentally cannot?
[2012/10/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are cheap now, Bela…
[2012/10/02 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Why will robot cars be too expensive?
[2012/10/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least the prototypes…
[2012/10/02 16:23]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): why build an expensive machine to do a job that a person can do?
[2012/10/02 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): some areas would still require streets
[2012/10/02 16:23]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): like driving a car
[2012/10/02 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I disagree that machines can never be creative.
[2012/10/02 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: aye, in my vision of a dystopian future you’d have an elite doing the sophisticated creative things, and at the lower end you’ll have hordes of humans doing jobs that are too expensive for robots to do 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you know the “Wheel” is the most horrible invention, ever. Square miles of street paving encrusting this planet now
[2012/10/02 16:23]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): because robots need power, and energy will become more and more expensive in the future
[2012/10/02 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What we will lose is the “Middle class”. This will be completely replaced by “technology”.
[2012/10/02 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, I had to drive in Dallas a week ago. It was horrible. I was traumatized. If a computer can do that for me, I’m all for it. Although I think the traffic problem is much bigger than just that.
[2012/10/02 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, has anyone heard of the new miracle substance? Nano Crystalline Cellulose. Made from sawdust for cheap, it has 10 times the tensile strength of steel and is far lighter….
[2012/10/02 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: But that is true of any tech. The first calculator was way too expensive and nobody would consider it viable for replacing people. But try and find ‘computers’ (originally a job description) now.
[2012/10/02 16:24]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I drive a lot in my job, and I enjoy it 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bela: it depends, really… if energy becomes too expensive, just throw a few more nuclear reactors around 😀 Preferably on remote countries where people don’t bother anyway…
[2012/10/02 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: wow, no, I had no idea!
[2012/10/02 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Sounds interesting Art…. We already have composite materials that are great, but expensive — because they all have to be laid up by hand, by skilled workers.
[2012/10/02 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I heard of it. Looks good!
[2012/10/02 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I’d totally agree, I’m all for automatic cars too!
[2012/10/02 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Scientists say that NCC will replace most plastics and metal in cars for example.
[2012/10/02 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I agree, we’re just doing a replay of the industrial revolution
[2012/10/02 16:26]  Bryce Galbraith: sorry, what is NCC?
[2012/10/02 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nanno Crystalline Cellulose
[2012/10/02 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): nitrocellulose
[2012/10/02 16:26]  Bryce Galbraith: ah, okay. thanks…
[2012/10/02 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Car makers have long had to choose between weight or cost. A lightweight-and-inexpensive material would do wonders for them.
[2012/10/02 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[2012/10/02 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: like wood shavings, Bryce. A car with wooden doors, wooden roof, wooden floor. Lucky the engine is not wooden or it wood not go, wood it?
[2012/10/02 16:27]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): I have nothing against automatic cars… but I think it’s more likely that in the future people will travel on horseback lol
[2012/10/02 16:27]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin):
[2012/10/02 16:27]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): /me reads: “is a highly flammable compound formed by nitrating cellulose through exposure to nitric acid or another powerful nitrating agent. When used as a propellant or low-order explosive, it is also known as guncotton”
[2012/10/02 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Is this something to do with fossil fuels running low, bela?
[2012/10/02 16:28]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes Extie
[2012/10/02 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: We are not running out on energy, you know. Only easily accessible energy.
[2012/10/02 16:28]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes I guess so
[2012/10/02 16:29]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): renewables are easy to catch. wind, sun
[2012/10/02 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: oo two minutes left folks. Any last words on the future of jobs? Will we all be unemployed and uneemployable in the decades to come!?
[2012/10/02 16:29]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): renewables won’t replace fossil fuels
[2012/10/02 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: With regard to fuels, there are new technologies that use gene spliced Algae and bacteria to produce hydrocarbons of any description directly. This field is called electrofuels and is only 2 years old.
[2012/10/02 16:29]  Bryce Galbraith: We will never run out of oil — it will just become prohibitively expensive to dredge it up and refine it at some point 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: If a process takes more energy to get than it yields, then that “hard to get” energy is actually worthless and effectively unavailable.
[2012/10/02 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “We” might all be unemployed, Extie, but the next 2 or 3 generations will find something to do 😀
[2012/10/02 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Nuclear energy will replace fossil fuels! 😀
[2012/10/02 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Zo 🙂
[2012/10/02 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Until we run out of sea water in the oceans 😀
[2012/10/02 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): not replacing. but they will exists. fossils .. will extinct
[2012/10/02 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: not in Japan.
[2012/10/02 16:30]  Bela Beltz (belabeltz): yes I think that algae thing is the only alternative to fossil fuels Art
[2012/10/02 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh.
[2012/10/02 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
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