Thinkers September 04 2012: SERENDIPITY APPS

[2012/09/04 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/09/04 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: (Roxie Marten)
[2012/09/04 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: aha
[2012/09/04 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…
[2012/09/04 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: GPS, product recommendations, friend suggestions. We have plenty of ways in which tech is designed to remove uncertainty. Now we are seeing the rise of apps that do the opposite. What does it mean to live in a society in which we need to download apps for serendipity?
[2012/09/04 15:33]  Ari (arisia.vita): Seren can download her own… 🙂
[2012/09/04 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Constructive serendipity might do something vaguelysimilar to functional cognitive enhancement.
[2012/09/04 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, sweets?
[2012/09/04 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Can you describe these “apps” to a luddite who doesn’t even have a smartphone?
[2012/09/04 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: People who use robustly serendipitous tools might be immistakabkle from appearing smart.
[2012/09/04 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: Hence they might be functionally smarter
[2012/09/04 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok. Well one can tell if you keep going to the same place, like the same bar on a friday night, say, and it suggests other bars you have not tried. Another is a GPS that adds suggestions like ‘follow whoever you like for 5 minutes’ or stuff like that which takes you off your expected route to places you would never otherwise go.
[2012/09/04 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh. Hello there!
[2012/09/04 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2012/09/04 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: There are apps that send you food you have never eaten before…
[2012/09/04 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yummy, food!
[2012/09/04 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is a lot to be said for random interactions.
[2012/09/04 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: so basically they are apps that encourae you to try new things rather than things you like according to your buying habits.
[2012/09/04 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Gwynie.
[2012/09/04 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Random interactions get you out of your rut and make it possible to have new experiences in spite of yourself!
[2012/09/04 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Marketing. The art of creating a need where one wasn’t present before 😀
[2012/09/04 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: And sell you more stuff!
[2012/09/04 15:37]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): does that qualify as serendipity?
[2012/09/04 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: does what, sorry?
[2012/09/04 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: But if you would buy drinks at one bar instead of another that is selling sixes, no?
[2012/09/04 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: I vote for randomness. I met the majority of my best sl friends at random.
[2012/09/04 15:38]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): does that qualify as finding something that is extremely useful
[2012/09/04 15:38]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): Food is food
[2012/09/04 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Is there a need for such apps? Are out lives too ordered now, with nothing left to chance thanks to the tech that organizes our lives?
[2012/09/04 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar is now holding a sign with the message “Down with predictability!”
[2012/09/04 15:39]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): does a new taste qualify as being an awe inspiring event?
[2012/09/04 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: We are well beyond the stage in markets where the market can produce goods we “might want”
[2012/09/04 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, you can disable Google search to include your preferences and previous searches now.
[2012/09/04 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: I think we have everyting we could possible want, except for tools that automate generation of money in the hands of the 99%
[2012/09/04 15:40]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): a life changing event other than going to a different bar
[2012/09/04 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: I want MOAR!
[2012/09/04 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu presses her cleavage in to art and asks “nuff?”
[2012/09/04 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Khannea
[2012/09/04 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Serendipity means ;the occurance and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way’. Finding out there is a whole new menu you never thought to try could make you happy, I guess?
[2012/09/04 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: mmmmm mmmmmm
[2012/09/04 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, creative marketeers will always find new means, tech or no tech, to create the need to buy something else.
[2012/09/04 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: More tech = more ways of poressing needs to people
[2012/09/04 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *pressing even
[2012/09/04 15:41]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): hmmmmmm. We have different interprtations of serendipity
[2012/09/04 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d guess that most marketeers would guess that people would be more happy by finding new things on a menu, yes.
[2012/09/04 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: How about an app that only suggests random *free* things. “Get up early and watch the sun rise!”
[2012/09/04 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: The article I got this from was mostly concerned with the notion that we downplay the importance of ‘chance’. Do you think that is correct?
[2012/09/04 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that’s because the ‘drive to find new things’ is a very good marketing effort 😀
[2012/09/04 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes that is smart
[2012/09/04 15:42]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): to me serendipity means tghe discovery, by chance, of something extraordinarily useful
[2012/09/04 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: People crave new experiences and differences. Marketing just caters to that need.
[2012/09/04 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: Constructive experimentation is a form of objective intelligence
[2012/09/04 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: “Find one of your friends and hang out!”
[2012/09/04 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok..well could there be an app for gaz’s version of serendipity?
[2012/09/04 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, but that’s a novelty, Art. People used to crave for *old* experiences
[2012/09/04 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: Interesting, so we take the smarts of people like Coolhunters and distill these qualities from the Coolhnters and condense them in to software apps.
[2012/09/04 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The “drive to try something new” is not THAT recent really.
[2012/09/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps, Extie, what the article meant was:
[2012/09/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: – people are lazy/unable to ‘find new things by THEMSELVES’
[2012/09/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For lots of reasons,
[2012/09/04 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think craving for routine and comfort is the result of fear or depression. Otherwise I think the craving is for difference.
[2012/09/04 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Its hard work to break routines.
[2012/09/04 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: comfort through routine, I should say…
[2012/09/04 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, I’d agree, Art, but I’d say that the craving for routine and comfort used to be the standard
[2012/09/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: exactly!
[2012/09/04 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Would a narcotic substance be able to compell people towards serendipious behavior?
[2012/09/04 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: I seem to recall there is a search engine that finds results that are like weird tangents from what you type in, encouraging you to go off and lookup stuff you may never have thought to investigate.
[2012/09/04 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Heya Luisa
[2012/09/04 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the more simple the routine is — wake up, work, come back, watch TV, sleep — the harder it is to break
[2012/09/04 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Luisa! Did Ari TP you?
[2012/09/04 15:45]  Ari (arisia.vita): wish I had 🙂
[2012/09/04 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Why do we want to travel? It is to see something new. Why do we want to eat our favorite food at home again, it is to seek comfort.
[2012/09/04 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would philosophically say that no narcotic substance can ‘compel’ people towards a behaviour that they don’t already heave inside themselves; what it does is to break the moral constraints to do so 🙂
[2012/09/04 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): greetings! I am left over cuddling remains from the jungle area above
[2012/09/04 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2012/09/04 15:46]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): hmmmmm. Perhaps we want to challenge ourselves
[2012/09/04 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh I like that, Art. There was a most interesting study made a decade ago showing that people travel mostly TO TELL THEIR FRIENDS.
[2012/09/04 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if they made further studies.
[2012/09/04 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting point about that, Gwyn. I think most substances do that.
[2012/09/04 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Aha so narcotics are about the lowest common denominator and apps *may* go against that?
[2012/09/04 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I doubt the tell their friends reason is all that common, does it fit with your personal reason to travel?
[2012/09/04 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (on that particular study people would be presented their option of travelling for free anywhere in the world, no matter what the cost, for a week, provided that they kept it a secret: the vast majority — 90% or more! — refused to travel under those conditions)
[2012/09/04 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I’d be on those 10%, Art
[2012/09/04 15:48]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): me too
[2012/09/04 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: I sometimes do a ‘random parachute jump’ in which I fly up high and then drift down on a paracute until I land…where I land. Mostly ona beach. Sl has lots of them!
[2012/09/04 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you cannot ask that freebie traveling question inside Secondlife! wrong audience group
[2012/09/04 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: New experiences create a longer ‘perceived’ life. Routine creates a shorter one.
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: my point was completely different. I *think* that the good reason behind those possible potential ‘serendipity apps’ is that the majority of the population is so apathic, so lethargic, so unable to think for themselves, that the only way to make them buy new things is to have an app telling them what to do
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, this is a sign that advertising is not producing the right effect
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re just uh…. ‘immune’ to adverts
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know that people in the late 19th/early 20th century really bELIEVED the ads were TRUE?
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Our population is very jaded and hardened against advertising.
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Zo
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: They sound like Harvey Dent aka 2Face, who needed to flip a coin and let it decide every outcome.
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: Aha
[2012/09/04 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So new ways have to be figured out
[2012/09/04 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: so even fairly silly apps can lift the world’s idiots by a few effective IQ points
[2012/09/04 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: and if you’re not so clever, you turn to witches to tell them what to do
[2012/09/04 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn: I like the Lethargy hypothesis. I think it rings true in my experience.
[2012/09/04 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that wasn’t a joke. I’m almost scared about the amount of my RL friends who have their Personal Witch, just like they have personal trainers
[2012/09/04 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: You know, the report said, most people who download these apps turn the off pretty quickly.
[2012/09/04 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: *them
[2012/09/04 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most people are too lethargic to even vote, even when their future depends on it.
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I doubt that.
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting, Extie. I would think that most would IGNORE it.
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Personal Witch? o.O
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Personally I don’t; I fully agree with Art
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: oh YES
[2012/09/04 15:51]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): perhaps we should call them tangential apps instead of serendipitous apps
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That wasn’t really a joke, you know. Sadly it’s true
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess you cannot if it is a GPS sending you to the back of beyond instead of your required destination:)
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Make all voters in a country a few % poorer, and just WATCH how quickly they;ll learn to vote
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Or riot
[2012/09/04 15:51]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): or lifestyle apps
[2012/09/04 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: the question is how much % hehe
[2012/09/04 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is a mathematics guy who measures historical likelihood of revolution, the key factor is divergence of wealth in the population.
[2012/09/04 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: my question is: what’s the point in having an app that doesn’t tell you where to go, but where it thinks you should be going instead? If I were an apathic mobile phone user, I’d uninstall the application quickly enough.
[2012/09/04 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: Gwynneth, enough to make the DHS buy over a billion rounds if ammo in the last few months.
[2012/09/04 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: where is the threshold? 🙂 I’m curious, because we need some riots in my country… lol
[2012/09/04 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: I wish I could remember his name…..
[2012/09/04 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I think people are apethetic about voting because they know the candidates standing have been pre-selected by the corporatocracy to not upset the status quo.
[2012/09/04 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, even though they have many choices.
[2012/09/04 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, alas, that’s another topic hehe
[2012/09/04 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: uhuh.
[2012/09/04 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is a myth that all politics is the same = corporate. A myth promulgated by guess who? corporate interests.
[2012/09/04 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: So we regard the ability to choose to vote (or even come to revolutionary acts) a manifestation of intelligence at this stage? Conversely to not do so as indicative of Stupidity?
[2012/09/04 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Funny analysis
[2012/09/04 15:55]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): I read of one political blogger whose interface deleted all of the folks he did not agree with, it deleted all the right wingers from his contacts and left him with only those he agreed with
[2012/09/04 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Thinkers would not need an app to send the discussion off course. We do that routinely!
[2012/09/04 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: WE ARE the app!
[2012/09/04 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow I like that
[2012/09/04 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We are the app
[2012/09/04 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That sounds like, uh, “the medium is the message” or “the network is the computer”
[2012/09/04 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: McLuhaneque, no?
[2012/09/04 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It could become a catchy motto
[2012/09/04 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh most definitely!
[2012/09/04 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha jinx
[2012/09/04 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: who?
[2012/09/04 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Marshall McLuhan
[2012/09/04 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: He is frigging badass
[2012/09/04 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: The medium is the message or the massage
[2012/09/04 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: long story, and definitely worth another topic for discussion 😀
[2012/09/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is also a more complex possible interpretation,
[2012/09/04 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Could functional apps run on anytjing else than a handheld smartphone, in the foreseeable future?
[2012/09/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: one which is really not politically correct
[2012/09/04 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: functional apps will run in eyeglasses soon.
[2012/09/04 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: So back to Gwyn’s digital technology making people lazy and unadventerous or were they that way to begin with?
[2012/09/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since I’m among friends, I can afford not to be politically correct 😀 so bear with me hehe
[2012/09/04 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yep that was my point, Extie
[2012/09/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We sort of ‘expect’ everybody to be uh….
[2012/09/04 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah art that is the basis of my presentation in San Francisco the end of this month
[2012/09/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘proficient’ with pretty much everything we throw at them
[2012/09/04 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey, Art,,Occulus Rift! Google it if you do not know what it is. It is going to be great!
[2012/09/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like, uh, “everybody has to learn to use a computer: it’s EASY”
[2012/09/04 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or a mobile phone
[2012/09/04 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think digital tech is making people lazy in a lot of ways. People think they don’t need to learn anything, because they can quickly look up answers to questions they have.
[2012/09/04 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think they were lazy already, or, worse, ‘not clever enough’ to use technology in the way we foresee they would use it
[2012/09/04 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmmmm
[2012/09/04 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: ambiguous
[2012/09/04 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, well, we have to dumb down technology
[2012/09/04 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: It does seem to be having some effects on the way we think and behave. I’m not sure lazy is the best word. Distracted and scatterbrained, might be better.
[2012/09/04 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha. Don’t tell that to an educator, Zo 🙂
[2012/09/04 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: eh?
[2012/09/04 15:59]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): hmmmm. I give folks credit for adding their little knowledges together to make a bigger picture
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: But why not consult Wolfram Alpha for the span of the golden gate bridge or the date of the Napoleonic war or countless other facts that I could wrack my brains for but would rather save a lot of time?
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some of them are starting to be seriously frightened by the idea that they might have completely destroyed the brains of a whole generation 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:00]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): for them selves, but perhaps as a group
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: who cares about those ‘facts’?
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean that question.
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You care.
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We care.
[2012/09/04 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Zobeid: I think I read some research that said that attention span is declining. And they hypothesize it is because of current media structures.
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Wow. We see magic all around us, and we call it destruction.
[2012/09/04 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we’re not exactly mainstream users, are we?
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah there are plenty of books that warn against too much digital tech in our lives. Turkle wrote one and she is hard to dismiss as a luddite. She inspired me!
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art & Zo: I also read a few — very few — articles researching that.
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I should state my point clearer….
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not *against* more clever technology!
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just think it’s WASTED
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pearls to pigs, you know
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: how is it wasted?
[2012/09/04 16:01]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): lazy vs. clever is diminuating. Everybody experiences moments of brightness or routine during a day timespan
[2012/09/04 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There IS a market for clever technology,
[2012/09/04 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: I know I am affected, because I have a spider solitaire game I bring up every time I must wait for more than a few seconds for something on the computer.
[2012/09/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but that’s not the MAINSTREAM market
[2012/09/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: I told you, I wasn’t going to be politically correct 😀
[2012/09/04 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: The ideal situation is the destruction of the mainstream
[2012/09/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh.
[2012/09/04 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): mainstream is targeting at the average, of course
[2012/09/04 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean… killing 90% of the population? 😉
[2012/09/04 16:02]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): lol
[2012/09/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: agreed, but that ‘average’ is incredibly lower than we expected
[2012/09/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘we’ being the thinkers of the 1960s onwards
[2012/09/04 16:03]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): perhaps 50% of highest expectations?
[2012/09/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: who, well, had a much better opinion of the ‘mainstream’
[2012/09/04 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Speaking of mainstream, there are still a lot of people who don’t use the internet at all.
[2012/09/04 16:03]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): you mean disupting common experience – like language?
[2012/09/04 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 5 billions, yes, Art 😀
[2012/09/04 16:03]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the elder generation
[2012/09/04 16:04]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): astonishing if one remembers how low the “entry barrier” for internet factually is
[2012/09/04 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: My mother in law finally was taught after a year how to use email on her iPad. But she still cannot surf the web.
[2012/09/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Those living in places where even a mobile phone with an Internet connection is a luxury compared to having enough food not to starve 😛
[2012/09/04 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: we — and I mean all of us here — think that it is low
[2012/09/04 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Here lately I’ve actually resorted to pulling the plug on my internet connection most days, until 5PM.
[2012/09/04 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Eeek Zo 😀
[2012/09/04 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heretic!
[2012/09/04 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2012/09/04 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: A full-time, high-speed internet connection is a great thing, but like many great things it can be overindulged.
[2012/09/04 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I am suprised at that, Art. Surely if she can work out email she can work out how to put a query into google and follow the link?
[2012/09/04 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, if you keep the TV unplugged as well, I’m fine 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:05]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you don’t have to maintain any server structure for “beeing inside the internet”. Just type in any url like into a client application, and you are defined “beeing inside”
[2012/09/04 16:05]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): actually I think the internet et al is a solution in search of a problem to solve
[2012/09/04 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: As if there was anything worth watching on TV…
[2012/09/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: gaz: what would be the problem then?
[2012/09/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (there isn’t, Zo 😉 )
[2012/09/04 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: I was gone for nearly a week to a wilderness area with no outside connections to the world. Time slowed down for me there. And I didn’t miss being connected. …..strange….
[2012/09/04 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes there is. Dr Who is back on the BBC:)
[2012/09/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh no! We’ll lose half of the Thinkers’ group if this goes on 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:06]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): attention spans???
[2012/09/04 16:06]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): TV still serves as a main information supplier for millions, shaping their opinion for elections
[2012/09/04 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Speaking of which, I’ll be off for a few days as well, on a place where “barely connected” is the best I can get hehe
[2012/09/04 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Where is this place? Hell?
[2012/09/04 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: I agree, and I would say that TV is truly the kind of technology that is still successfully used by the so-called ‘average’ mainstream user
[2012/09/04 16:07]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Hell will have huuuuge neon advertising signs everywhere 😀
[2012/09/04 16:07]  Ari (arisia.vita): I assume you’ve all seen the new “Internet Rising” documentary?
[2012/09/04 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: No.
[2012/09/04 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: ironically, the region is known in Portuguese as “Land of the Devil” 😉 because it used to be bare
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Ari (arisia.vita): watch it when you get a chance
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I haven’t, Ari
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Thanks ari
[2012/09/04 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think TV is definitely a comfort medium. It is passive. People sometimes need to not think and to just exist. When it is a problem is when people do TV as their only thing.
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Ari (arisia.vita): you will all like it, it has some sl stuff in it
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I’d guess it’s based on anedoctal evidence
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It has?!?
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Ari (arisia.vita): yes
[2012/09/04 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma grrfs and thumps her internet connection…
[2012/09/04 16:08]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a need for media consumption while doing the ironing, sure
[2012/09/04 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: TV has changed thanks to video and iPlayer. It used to be, everybody would sit and watch a program at the same time but now we watch programs at our own convenience. I read once how this badly affected the ‘watercooler effect’ where people would gather around to talk about last night’s soap or whatever.
[2012/09/04 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s actually the trouble with these things. We get informed of things like uh… “9-year-old quasi-analphabet kid in India connects to the Internet and developed an iPhone application” and think, “wow, the world is really changing!”
[2012/09/04 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then we forget that a billion kids in India and China are pretty much only worried about the next daily meal, if and when they get it
[2012/09/04 16:10]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): interactivity on television did not really took of. Even the “alternative endings” or “different viewing angles” on DVD media … seldom used
[2012/09/04 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I have a hypothesis that the next Big Thing (I mean Google and Facebook type big) will come from the mind of somebody from the Third World.
[2012/09/04 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah that is probable
[2012/09/04 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is no *point*, from the advertiser’s point oif view, in ‘interactive television’
[2012/09/04 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: This brings up an interesting topic. Is Second Life a place where we recreate situations we would otherwise have in life, OR is it a place where we create situations that are NOT POSSIBLE in life, otherwise? I think no VR worlders think the first and most of US think the second…. ? no?
[2012/09/04 16:11]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Extie: the 1st world is nearly finished, of course new impulses will have to originate elsewhere
[2012/09/04 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: probable. But it won’t mean that “everybody in the Third World just became cleverer”
[2012/09/04 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: It is by a very wide margin a place where we recreate RL.
[2012/09/04 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Both art
[2012/09/04 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: non, not no
[2012/09/04 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: What do you mean “finished” Luisa?
[2012/09/04 16:12]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): let’S brand it “completed”
[2012/09/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note: the best IT university of the world is in India. People who get rejected by their strict application procedure get easily accepted at the MIT. Even someone who THINKS to be good enough to apply there is MIT-grade material.
[2012/09/04 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: People who aren’t in VR worlds ASSUME that it is recreated life that is less read and therefore suspect. They don’t consider that it is creating the NOT Possible in Real Life.
[2012/09/04 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: No, Gwyn, it merely means the tools for developing cool stuff has spread to a much broader group of users than is currently the case.
[2012/09/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that doesn’t mean that the WHOLE of India is suddenly entering a Rennaisance of technology 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does it really, Extie? 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu insert racism comment about people in China and India only engaging on copying behavior.
[2012/09/04 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha!
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say people *everywhere* are only engaging on copying behaviour —
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they copy what they watch on TV
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they copy fashion
[2012/09/04 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: man, single typos change all my meanings… hahahaha
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they copy music tastes
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and so forth
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see the connection with “racism” there, Khannea.
[2012/09/04 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Khannea, that’s one of the self defence reflexes of a “completed” economy/environment
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, marketeers are clever.
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Just because we CAN do that does not mean we DO, Art. I would say that for every one SL sim that does the ‘not possible in RL’ there are dozens that simply recreate what we have in RL. Shops..towns..beaches..castles..
[2012/09/04 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu snickers at Zobi.
[2012/09/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: agreed
[2012/09/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So even the high-brow superusers in SL, when viewed from that perspective, are just a notch above couch potatoes 😉
[2012/09/04 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: We could recreate Thinkers in RL. Sit around and debate.
[2012/09/04 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we ARE an elite.
[2012/09/04 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have a friend who just got back from two years in china who said they do copying there mostly because it is a means to the quickest payoff in business. And for no other reasons.
[2012/09/04 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): culture does not forbit it, too
[2012/09/04 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. That only means the Chinese are clever. Why make an effort if they can Make Money fast without an effort? 😉
[2012/09/04 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmmmmmmm
[2012/09/04 16:15]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): which would leave sl as a form of animation ex
[2012/09/04 16:15]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): Ex
[2012/09/04 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Exactly. Copying is an effective strategy, if you don’t have all the legal BS and state-mandated monopoly powers in place to stop it.
[2012/09/04 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the intellectual property habit is just more alive inside the united states. other populations life that different
[2012/09/04 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Who has something to lose lives by the rule
[2012/09/04 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: I do quirky in SL but only occasionally. Mostly my SL is not different to most people’s real social life. I meet my friends, we go shopping or maybe dancing or just hang out at home and chat.
[2012/09/04 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu keeps her mouth shut
[2012/09/04 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the Chinese current business model will change, once a stable middle class is achieved. We are only in the first generation of a middle class there.
[2012/09/04 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, let me share something from a friend of mine.
[2012/09/04 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He has the same idea I have towards SL
[2012/09/04 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: When friends ask me if I still log in,
[2012/09/04 16:17]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): not necessarily something to loose. it’S trade, and a scarity of resource
[2012/09/04 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar opens Khannea’s mouth
[2012/09/04 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we tell them that “SL is not for you”
[2012/09/04 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Here are my friends’ words: “Hahha that I will remember. I usually say Second Life? Oh no that would cut significantly into your TV watching routine. Don’t try it ;)) “
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ironically he just IMed me
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: ..
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And has no clue we’re discussing this on Thinkers.
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu does things with her open mouth to art she also does IRL
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: I was at home one day, and a giant wooden horse, sort of trojan horse type of thing on wheels, came rolling down the highway flinging fireballs in random directions.
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: But I kind of like that Sl MIGHT send a giant flying panda bear through my window who carries me off to a pink fluffy cloud in the sky full of sights I never imagined. I like that it can do that.
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea 😀
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Bring him in. I want to meet this person.
[2012/09/04 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: So that’s SL. 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (he just went offline; you might have met him eons ago. Draxtor Despres)
[2012/09/04 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes. 😀
[2012/09/04 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not familiar with that name.
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Confident AO – Preloaded ZHAO II: 5% memory free
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Extropia’s Antenna: Touch me for a control menu
[2012/09/04 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: SL, does require a lot of skills we take for granted. Take this group as an example. If you can’t read quickly and type fast you are lost.
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, good example
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Ari (arisia.vita): wb Exti
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And you need to pay attention too — conversation switching fast
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t believe it, Gwyn. I mean, that may be partially true… But the UI definitely makes a lot of things harder than they ought to be.
[2012/09/04 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: too fast, GWyn! haha
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you have short attention spans, this is too confusing
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Art hehe
[2012/09/04 16:22]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): SL is full of everything. Best using a pie diagram to explain. Not one single group doing the same activity
[2012/09/04 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: I hate my router.
[2012/09/04 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think also you need to follow more than one thought at a time here.
[2012/09/04 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I definitely have no academic research backing my claim 😛
[2012/09/04 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (wb Extie!)
[2012/09/04 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: indeed. What did you say? lol
[2012/09/04 16:23]  Object: Hi Extropia DaSilva! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[2012/09/04 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: who knows?
[2012/09/04 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Behold how we want the future. Persistent and pervasive multicullturalism
[2012/09/04 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: what I meant is that it’s a valid working hypothesis. Now academics have to do their research and prove or refute the theory 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:24]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): chatlogs and search engines are not really training mid timespan memory capabilities
[2012/09/04 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Khannea, future culture might end up being a different mish mash for each of us, with little concurrency with others……
[2012/09/04 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (to recap: the UI is complicated because it gives access to a complicated environment; it requires a lot of learning; but the kind of people who are in SL are the ones loving to learn. Ergo, to be a successful SL resident — one that enjoys SL — you need to have the spark, the ‘love of learning’. Few have that. Conclusion: SL is not a mainstream product and it never will be, not even with an UI as simple to use as a TV set)
[2012/09/04 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: aha atomized multiculturalism
[2012/09/04 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok! I confess
[2012/09/04 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s just a theory, Zo. No proof yet, not in the scientific sense.
[2012/09/04 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: I am an alt of Rhiannon
[2012/09/04 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha impossible, Khannea 😀
[2012/09/04 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: I feel so smart and philosolophical;
[2012/09/04 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have grown to grudgingly accept Gwyns inescapable hypothesis there….. heh
[2012/09/04 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It isn’t enough to FEEL smart & philosophical; you have to BE it 😀
[2012/09/04 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: you inspired me to formulate it!
[2012/09/04 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: But is SL an answer to this problem of digital tech nurturing short attention spans? Do we train ourselves to be better users of digital tech by being in SL and learning how to function?
[2012/09/04 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: who hooooo!
[2012/09/04 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, and no, and no.
[2012/09/04 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that was to Extie)
[2012/09/04 16:27]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a secondary cellphone display on the rearside, explicitely for advertisings! the really ingenious inventions one got just on chatgroups. I guess even the younger generation would accept these
[2012/09/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I posit precisely the opposite, Extie 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Then what IS the answer?
[2012/09/04 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: I have noticed that SL is an incredible time sink.
[2012/09/04 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We ARE already BETTER users of digital tech. THAT’s why we are in SL. It’s because we do NOT have short attention spans, but, rather, we enjoy learning stuff
[2012/09/04 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you really think about it. It is amazing how LONG our attention spans are here in SL. Sometimes HOURS at a time without backing out.
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So your question is rather the answer. The question becomes: why do some people have the ‘love to learn’ spark while others don’t?
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: Magic
[2012/09/04 16:28]  gaz (gazelle.falconer): is sl a serendiptious aspect of the internet?
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m seriously considering evolution & education, Khannea 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: And with Meth you can hold on for days.
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Sometimes. Other times SL bores me. On those occasions I choose not to exist.
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: It was the same way on the text-based MUCKs that preceded SL. I could spend hours and hours….
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gaz: I would even claim that SL should be renamed Serendipity Life 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: exactly
[2012/09/04 16:28]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): learn spark perhaps rooted in their resumes. academical career
[2012/09/04 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, speaking of advertising. The consensus of the new advertising philopophy is that people will ONLY watch and read advertising that they like and want to see. Interruptive advertising will die.
[2012/09/04 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: I’d want Extropia to exist 27/7/365. Is there an app for that?
[2012/09/04 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: IF that hypothesis is true, it matters little if it’s a MUCK, SL, or something like this, It’s the way WE are that drives us to SL,
[2012/09/04 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: I might add and CHOOSE to see
[2012/09/04 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and not the reverse.
[2012/09/04 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I would agree BUT only for a relatively thin slice of the population., Granted, that slice might be the one with stronger economic power.
[2012/09/04 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Khannea are their 27 hours in your day? haha
[2012/09/04 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: You can speak to the fairly useless LifeNautExtie if you like, sweets. Just do not expect much sense from her.
[2012/09/04 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhm 24 indeed
[2012/09/04 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Art, ads are usually living at the fringe of ones view area. corner of eye, border of paper sheet. Not “square into the face”
[2012/09/04 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): and displays occupy the square face area
[2012/09/04 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is almost up.. last comments?
[2012/09/04 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there it does not belong
[2012/09/04 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ads work. But not on everyone. They work on the mainstream. The problem is with ads for the kind of people like us 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: We still do poems and shit?
[2012/09/04 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: yes.
[2012/09/04 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We most definitely do!
[2012/09/04 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: By “we” I mean the poetically-inclined among us, of course 😉
[2012/09/04 16:31]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): no shit, sherlock
[2012/09/04 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: meaning me.
[2012/09/04 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mostly you 🙂
[2012/09/04 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK time up!
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