Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/08/28 15:31] Extropia DaSilva: Simple question this week…
[2012/08/28 15:31] Extropia DaSilva: Can we eliminate evil?
[2012/08/28 15:31] Extropia DaSilva: hello Gwyn!
[2012/08/28 15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: eeeeevil
[2012/08/28 15:32] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): speaking of .. heöllo Gwyn
[2012/08/28 15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, but we can eliminate Microsoft.
[2012/08/28 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t believe in evil, because evil implies God and religion.
[2012/08/28 15:32] Zobeid Zuma: I was going to say… I we tried to eliminate Microsoft but it didn’t work.
[2012/08/28 15:32] ArtCrash Exonar: I belive in Bad though.
[2012/08/28 15:32] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): evil is within you, up to a degree
[2012/08/28 15:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah.
[2012/08/28 15:32] Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2012/08/28 15:32] Extropia DaSilva: Wish I had Gwyn’s long legs!
[2012/08/28 15:32] Reynardo: ma?ybe we should agree on a definition of evil
[2012/08/28 15:32] Zobeid Zuma: There’s a slider for that, Extie!
[2012/08/28 15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi, and has anyone started with a working definition of what “evil” is?
[2012/08/28 15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear hear Reynardo
[2012/08/28 15:33] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): small tiny evil thoughts. like some tiny puppet sitting on your shoulder. but you don’t have to listen to their arguments
[2012/08/28 15:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bad is what religions call evil? 😉
[2012/08/28 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: Ok then..what is the definition of ‘evil’?
[2012/08/28 15:33] Reynardo: do the major religions agree on the meaning of evil?
[2012/08/28 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: Zo..no saying ‘microsoft’.
[2012/08/28 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: Evil implies a force behind the doer, such as satan or other godlike being.
[2012/08/28 15:34] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): definition. religion of course defines their own working brand of evil
[2012/08/28 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma grfs.
[2012/08/28 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have one. Tested for over 26 centuries and still found valid: everything that either a) makes people suffer and/or b) prevents them from enjoying happiness
[2012/08/28 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: that IS microsoft!
[2012/08/28 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: But we can definitely talk about Bad
[2012/08/28 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeppers.
[2012/08/28 15:34] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That works for me, Gwyn
[2012/08/28 15:34] Reynardo: whatg about surgery? doesn’t that make people suffer
[2012/08/28 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: A lot of things prevent people from enjoying happiness that aren’t evil.
[2012/08/28 15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Give me good examples!
[2012/08/28 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: It used to. Before we could switch off pain.
[2012/08/28 15:35] ArtCrash Exonar: There is a difference between ‘good and evil’ and ‘good and bad’.
[2012/08/28 15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Pain” is not “evil”
[2012/08/28 15:35] ArtCrash Exonar: So, can we eliminate bad behavior among humans would be a better way to phrase today’s topic.
[2012/08/28 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: but it is suffering.
[2012/08/28 15:35] Reynardo: i agree that far
[2012/08/28 15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless, of course, someone is inflicting others some pain,
[2012/08/28 15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and of course, assuming they’re not BDSM…hehe
[2012/08/28 15:35] Reynardo: lol
[2012/08/28 15:35] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Surgery can cause suffering; but it’s temporary, and it can prevent greater, long term suffering or life threatening conditions
[2012/08/28 15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But in general we know pretty much what makes US happy, and what prevents us from being happy
[2012/08/28 15:35] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): where is the democratic approach on evilness? a group defines whats good or bad, not any individual
[2012/08/28 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: A natural disaster isn’t evil. A bear kills a hiker. Is the bear evil? Not really. There’s no malice, just things that went wrong.
[2012/08/28 15:36] Reynardo: what if hurting people makes us happy?
[2012/08/28 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I was *mostly* talking about existential suffering
[2012/08/28 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: hello Kimiko:)
[2012/08/28 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: reynardo: it’s not about you; it’s about them 😉
[2012/08/28 15:36] Reynardo: and i don’t mean BDSM
[2012/08/28 15:36] Kimiko Yiyuan: Hello there.
[2012/08/28 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know what I mean. Defining “oh, I enjoy seeing other writhe and suffer, that makes me soooo happy, so I’m Good”
[2012/08/28 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That doesn’t work
[2012/08/28 15:36] Kimiko Yiyuan: Hello Extropia.
[2012/08/28 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: luisa, I think each one of us defines good and bad. Most of us accept our cultures definitions which we have learned. but it is up to us to define it
[2012/08/28 15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because you KNOW you’re making otehrs suffer
[2012/08/28 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: Hurting someone else for your own gain is probably evil… Hurting someone for the sake of hurting them surely must be evil. (And that brings us back to Microsoft!)
[2012/08/28 15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: sort of. We instinctively know how others get happy, because we get happy too; at least we have a very general idea.
[2012/08/28 15:37] Kimiko Yiyuan: Microsoft?
[2012/08/28 15:37] Reynardo: was 9/11 evil?
[2012/08/28 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: So Zo believes bears and earthquakes are not evil. This implies evil exists only in people.
[2012/08/28 15:37] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): cultural definitions tend to rub in, so you react the same even in foreign realms
[2012/08/28 15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reynardo: sure, it made thousands die
[2012/08/28 15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: of COURSE.
[2012/08/28 15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No mind, no good/evil
[2012/08/28 15:38] Reynardo: but it wasnt evil to the terrorists
[2012/08/28 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: So a simple way to eliminate evil is to eliminate people?
[2012/08/28 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you wish 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not only people; minds
[2012/08/28 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That includes AIs, yes
[2012/08/28 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And of course, soft furry animals.
[2012/08/28 15:38] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): shifted perception. terrorists are often enclosed into their own, more tiny cultural sphere
[2012/08/28 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And ugly, spiky ones too.
[2012/08/28 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: But that seems worse than living with evil.
[2012/08/28 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is hehe — I was being sarcastic
[2012/08/28 15:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: KILLING people will make them suffer
[2012/08/28 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you cannot fight evil by using evil actions; that just eprpetuates evil
[2012/08/28 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the fundamental moral dilemma of terrorism… or starting “wars for peace”
[2012/08/28 15:39] Reynardo: are all wars evilthen?
[2012/08/28 15:39] Extropia DaSilva: Is evil subjective?
[2012/08/28 15:39] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): terrorists reasoning are a key to explore evilness. Their was that guy who killed 77 kids in a summer camp last year. Now sentenced. Wrote much stuff about his reasonings
[2012/08/28 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reynardo: in the sense that every war will at least make one single person suffer a bit more, sure.
[2012/08/28 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: The Al quaida terrorists think they are going god’s work. So they aren’t evil from their perspective.
[2012/08/28 15:40] Reynardo: ok. do we accept “necessary” evils?
[2012/08/28 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: I do not believe anyone goes to war intentionally to be evil. I believe even the Gestapo believed what they were doing was right and propper.
[2012/08/28 15:40] ArtCrash Exonar: There is no such thing as ‘evil’ for those who are not believers in religion of some type.
[2012/08/28 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m happy to accept that people with serious mental disturbances have a fundamental problem in instinctively understand the suffering they cause; sadly, the reverse is usually true (they also don’t know what happiness is)
[2012/08/28 15:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: you can replace ‘evil’ by ‘bad’ or if you prefer ‘not good’ in my working definition
[2012/08/28 15:41] Reynardo: i agree with artcrash I;m afraid
[2012/08/28 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “ungood”
[2012/08/28 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: There is such thing as sadism, though. There is a mindset that includes hurting people for one’s own self-aggrandizement.
[2012/08/28 15:41] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): missleading pathes. Soldiers are always walking that direction
[2012/08/28 15:41] Kimiko Yiyuan: Is the death penalty evil? And if so, is it more evil in some countries and less in others?
[2012/08/28 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: I replace evil, the concept of religion with bad, the definition of our judgement of behavior.
[2012/08/28 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: I think it is a safety mechanism to say of a group ‘they acted like that because they were evil’ because then you can believe you would not. But if they are people just like you, given the right (or wrong!) circumstances maybe you would act like that!
[2012/08/28 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, but unless there is a serioius mental disturbance behind sadism, they are aware of an “ungood” act (I’m now using “ungood” as a PC replacement for “evil”)
[2012/08/28 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kimiko: for the one dying, it’s always suffering
[2012/08/28 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: In fact we know this to be the case. Think Milligram and the Stanford prison experiment.
[2012/08/28 15:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Extie, but that doesn’t mean that yuou’re allowed to make others suffer because “everyone does it”
[2012/08/28 15:42] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): can you stop Death Penalty and still go to war with any country? Those double standards are common, it’s frightening
[2012/08/28 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: For the best arguments on the topic of Good and Evil vs Good and Bad I refer anyone interested to ‘Beyond Good and Evil’ by Nietzche.
[2012/08/28 15:42] Reynardo: philosophers have made a distinction between moral and natural evil. does that hold water?
[2012/08/28 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see the death penalty as evil.
[2012/08/28 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just because there are double standards, that’0s just justifoication to cause suffering
[2012/08/28 15:43] Kimiko Yiyuan: Yes, but I was not asking if it makes someone suffering, but if it is evil Earthquakes makes people suffering too.
[2012/08/28 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: But then I’m in Texas where we execute people all the time.
[2012/08/28 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s here the distinction 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that was for reynardo)
[2012/08/28 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: No I do not mean that. I mean evil seems to be a point of view. Even something as terrible as the Holocaust which to me is the epitome of evil, I believe the nazis actually thought it was good.
[2012/08/28 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: Texans believe that violence is an appropriate response to certain problems.
[2012/08/28 15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on teh Nazis, Extie — in fact, the vast majority of them didn’t think it wa s’good’
[2012/08/28 15:43] Reynardo: moral evil is caused by conscious choice, natural by nature — what used to be called “acts of God”
[2012/08/28 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: Well somebody thought it was good.
[2012/08/28 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, ok, Reynardo. I would also agree that the result of an *unconscious* act is not technically evil, because there is no *intention* behind it.
[2012/08/28 15:44] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): conscious choice, natural causes
[2012/08/28 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: Good for who, Extie?
[2012/08/28 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: or maybe I am wrong and nobody thought it was good but did it anyway.
[2012/08/28 15:44] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think things like the Holocaust are more a case where no one resists authority…I don’t think anyone necessarily has to find them good, which is way scarier to me
[2012/08/28 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that ‘someone’ was seriously mentally damaged.
[2012/08/28 15:44] Reynardo: so evil is something only conscious beings can do by choice
[2012/08/28 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yep, reynardo
[2012/08/28 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: What I am trying to get at is this: Evil is subjective.
[2012/08/28 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really
[2012/08/28 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s moral relativism
[2012/08/28 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: OK, the original question of can we do away with this bad behavior of humans, and I think that history shows us that it isn’t possible.
[2012/08/28 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: I think you’re overstating your position, Extie.
[2012/08/28 15:45] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): oh we should state the fact that acting evil includes “not acting” under circumstances. The holocaust example
[2012/08/28 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: Or maybe you just need to back it up…
[2012/08/28 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: you can; it’s just hard; and most people don’t care about it seriously enough to do something about it 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:46] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there was that argument if it is justified to kill a Führer, even amongst Wehrmacht members. Mentioning Stauffenberg there#
[2012/08/28 15:46] ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, there will always be someone looking for advantage and willing to violate the rights of others to get it.
[2012/08/28 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, luisa. Omitting to act in order to stop a damaging action is also ‘ungood’
[2012/08/28 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: Ok maybe Evil is objectively evil but can you think of any particular cases where everybody can agree this act is an evil act?
[2012/08/28 15:47] Reynardo: 9/11
[2012/08/28 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: But the terroists did not think it was evil.
[2012/08/28 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: since I happen to know a lot of anecdotal examples of people who are NOT like that, I know it’s possible. The fact that these people are very very few just shows it’s tremendously hard.
[2012/08/28 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: sure. Make anyone suffer, having the intention to do so. Everybody will agree it’s not nice 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:48] Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma grr
[2012/08/28 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, if the intention is unknown, only inferred, things can get complicated.
[2012/08/28 15:48] Zobeid Zuma: Why is cut-and-paste not working?
[2012/08/28 15:48] Reynardo: evil then is a socially connstructed notion which only has meaning within a certain subset of people?
[2012/08/28 15:48] ArtCrash Exonar: I think stumbling over the word evil will get us nowhere on this topic. It is only from a religious standpoint that it exists. So it is different for whatever religion invokes it.
[2012/08/28 15:48] Kimiko Yiyuan: But is not nice actually the same as evil?
[2012/08/28 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really. Murder is universally seen as ungood on all societies in all epochs.
[2012/08/28 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: That is one way to eliminate evil: Strike it from spoken and written language:)
[2012/08/28 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I absolutely disagree with the moral relativism.
[2012/08/28 15:49] Reynardo: lol
[2012/08/28 15:49] Zobeid Zuma: So, the terrorists are clearly out of touch with reality. That just tells us that evil can take on a delusional form, not that they weren’t evil.
[2012/08/28 15:49] ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, that is so not true. Murder is acceptable in most cultures. They call it war.
[2012/08/28 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can agree, however, that the word “evil” (“live” written backwards) is religiously charged,
[2012/08/28 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but use ungood if you prefer
[2012/08/28 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why do youb think they call it WAR, Art?
[2012/08/28 15:50] ArtCrash Exonar: Just use bad behavior of humans as the concept.
[2012/08/28 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: How about doubleplus ungood for really evil acts? 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s because people KNOW that murder is ungood; then we ‘invent’ justifications to ‘allow’ our ungood acts.
[2012/08/28 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now THAT is culturally dependent.
[2012/08/28 15:50] Reynardo: people have an instiinctive grasp of good and evil?
[2012/08/28 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But each and every one of us — yes, even if we are mass murders! — invent those justifications to ‘allow’ ourselves our nongood acts
[2012/08/28 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: So if we decide to use the word ‘bad people’ people from now on, does that make the job of turning everyone into decent citizens any easier?
[2012/08/28 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Reynardo. Most people are not running around cutting up their mothers in small peaces and having them from breakfast 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:51] ArtCrash Exonar: bad behavior is different from bad people.
[2012/08/28 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Art on that 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:51] Reynardo: yes
[2012/08/28 15:51] Extropia DaSilva: If we decide to use the term bad behaviour rather than evil..
[2012/08/28 15:51] Kimiko Yiyuan: I do not think that “evil” can only be seen from a religious standpoint Art. Although it is very often used in that regard.
[2012/08/28 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But… repeated bad behaviour will eventually lead to a mind so used to bad behaviour that it becomes a bad person.
[2012/08/28 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I’d be fine with that.
[2012/08/28 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Human beings have a great talent for rationalization.
[2012/08/28 15:52] Extropia DaSilva: How about starting small: eliminate bad behaviour in Second Life. Can it be done?
[2012/08/28 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, they can even rationalise the justification for committing bad behaviour 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:52] Reynardo: what is bad behavior in SL?
[2012/08/28 15:52] Kimiko Yiyuan: Bad behaviour would not really be the same as evil, or would it?
[2012/08/28 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I’m working on that!
[2012/08/28 15:52] ArtCrash Exonar: Evil implies an anti religious force behind the act. Not just the action of the doer.
[2012/08/28 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Griefing.
[2012/08/28 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: So the stumbline block is always: First define what is bad behaviour. Yes?
[2012/08/28 15:53] Zobeid Zuma: Griefing is actually a great example of evil — harassing other people for no other reason than because you enjoy it.
[2012/08/28 15:53] ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, true Extie
[2012/08/28 15:53] Reynardo: without agreed definitions there is no true conversation
[2012/08/28 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: stop flogging the dead horse 🙂 We all agree to eliminate the word evil from our discussion, so you can focus on discussing the point instead of disregarding ‘religious viewpoints’
[2012/08/28 15:54] ArtCrash Exonar: But we must realize that our decisions on what is bad behavior, though seemingly absolute are our own personal moral choices and not objective in many senses.
[2012/08/28 15:54] Extropia DaSilva: yeah but somebody could come here and do somethinng and maybe some of us giggle and find it funny whereas others get annoyed and call this person a griefer.
[2012/08/28 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we cannot eliminate evil, but we can eliminate the word from the discussion 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:54] Kimiko Yiyuan: What is bad behaviour? Bad behaivour is when you tell your kid to go to bed and it does not. Bad behaviour is a too mild and far to shallow as description of acts like 9/11. Then again, the term evil might not get us very far here either.
[2012/08/28 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Buh? How can we eliminate the word evil from our topic about whether it’s possible to eliminate evil?
[2012/08/28 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think banning the word will make it go away.
[2012/08/28 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I stick to my definition: bad behaviour is the act with intention of harming others and/or preventing them to have some happiness.
[2012/08/28 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (harm in both the physical and the mental sense)
[2012/08/28 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: Most of us share the same cultural moral ideas. That is why our ideas seem fixed.
[2012/08/28 15:55] Reynardo: the word intention is key in your definition
[2012/08/28 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most of us are human beings…
[2012/08/28 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: Well if you were God how would you go about making a world full of people who have free will turn out all good?
[2012/08/28 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: I like that distinction of intentional harm Gwyn.
[2012/08/28 15:55] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “getting griefed” partly belongs to your own thresholds. I got that description of “below the radar griefing”, a disruptive SL behavior that still doesn’t triggers residents consent on what Griefing is, or what still isnt
[2012/08/28 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the problem with the lack of intention is easily exemplified in the case of a mother yelling at a kid playing with matches.
[2012/08/28 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: (I expect Philip Rosedale asked this question all the time when he was god of SL)
[2012/08/28 15:56] Kimiko Yiyuan: Yes, that is bad behaviour, but I guess we all behaved bad some time or another. But I am pretty sure that we all would not have called oureselfes to be an evil person because of that.
[2012/08/28 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The kid, of course, cries because his mother yelled at him; he’s unhappy
[2012/08/28 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the intention behind the yell was to prevent the kid from harm
[2012/08/28 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: Hmmm…. Is that guy griefing us, or is he just naturally a jerk?
[2012/08/28 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the intention is all that matters
[2012/08/28 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: Sometimes it’s hard to tell.
[2012/08/28 15:56] Extropia DaSilva: Could you have an AI that could anticipate an evil act and stop it from being carried out?
[2012/08/28 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But *externally* we might just see “a mother yelling at a kid” and, without knowing what the mother feels, we don’t know if she’s doing “bad behaviour”
[2012/08/28 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: only if that AI is also a mind reader.
[2012/08/28 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: so it is.
[2012/08/28 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: bad behavior can be mild and extreme. It is our judgment of harm that determines that usually, I think.
[2012/08/28 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: Like an intelligent plane that just plain refuses to fly into the skyscraper?
[2012/08/28 15:57] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there is at least one Sim community that got extinct by the landlord gradually banning key members. Disrupted by so called “anti griefer measures”
[2012/08/28 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s why the way to “eliminate bad behaviour” starts with analysing OUR own behaviour; we’re the only persons that we can read the mind of 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: So far..
[2012/08/28 15:57] Kimiko Yiyuan: In any case, evil…a word I do not like And I do have my troubles with absolutes.
[2012/08/28 15:57] Reynardo: sometimes we cannot read our own minds
[2012/08/28 15:58] Kimiko Yiyuan: Oh my! damn lag!
[2012/08/28 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: But we are getting better at interpreting patterns of brain activity into thought and perception.
[2012/08/28 15:58] Reynardo: you always have trouble with all absoutes?
[2012/08/28 15:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reynardo: I’ll go further and say that the vast majority of people doesn’t read their own minds and doesn’t make the least effort to do so 🙂
[2012/08/28 15:58] Reynardo: agreed
[2012/08/28 15:59] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): luisa dislikes relatives
[2012/08/28 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kimiko: forget the absolute then. Give me an example of an action that has the intention to harm another, and effectively does so, and which cannot be classified as “bad behaviour”
[2012/08/28 15:59] Reynardo: i have done evil acts at times, emotionally not physically (as far as I know)
[2012/08/28 15:59] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if everything is relative, you start to crave for an absolute anchor point
[2012/08/28 15:59] Extropia DaSilva: surgery.
[2012/08/28 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless some of us are seriously mentally disranged, we will agree with some
[2012/08/28 15:59] Kimiko Yiyuan: I was about to write that the word evil is an absolute. Like the word good .. at least in this case also is…meaning that it is also rather hard to define. Unless you say it is the opposite of evil..which does not really get us far either.
[2012/08/28 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no. Unless you’re thinking of psychopathic doctors, they all have the intention to *cure*
[2012/08/28 16:00] ArtCrash Exonar: Another point in that it is difficult or impossible to eliminate ‘bad’ human behavior is that we all do not think about these judgements similarly. The Wall Street trader calls it moral to raid a pension fund, the stockholders of the pension fund call that behavior extremely bad.
[2012/08/28 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Good” is just the opposite: having the intention to benefit others, and effectively doing so.
[2012/08/28 16:00] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there was that lobotomist who travelled the US to cure people by damaging their brains
[2012/08/28 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: forget what they SAY. Those are justifications. Think about what their intention is.
[2012/08/28 16:01] Reynardo: so if someone harms another person with good intentions that is not evil?
[2012/08/28 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: yes, but I’m sure he had the intention to cure them
[2012/08/28 16:01] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): (G’night, everyone 🙂 )
[2012/08/28 16:01] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): reynard, that lobotomist is in my viewpoint one of the most evil persons on history. just did not get “diagnosed” himself early enough
[2012/08/28 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reynardo: yes, but…. how do YOU know that? 🙂 Only that person knows their own intentions.
[2012/08/28 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: Night!
[2012/08/28 16:01] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they sent patients to him, for the “cure”
[2012/08/28 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I guess we’re talking about the extreme cases.
[2012/08/28 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: I have met Stock types who have no compunction about what they call playing the market regardless of who is hurt. They all say caveat emptor. There is no feeling or wrongdoing among them.
[2012/08/28 16:02] Reynardo: ok. i am following you
[2012/08/28 16:02] Kimiko Yiyuan: What about an intention where you want to get benefits for others but have to harm some other group intentionally to reach that goal?
[2012/08/28 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mental disturbances are not a good gauge for defining average behaviour. Fortunately,. they are rare exceptions
[2012/08/28 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: like the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
[2012/08/28 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: that’s what they SAY
[2012/08/28 16:02] Reynardo: that is like the lifeboat case. whom would you throw overboard is there is not enough water for all? casuistry it’s called
[2012/08/28 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, they know very well that: “we are so much cleverer than the other stupid idiots around us who deserve to be swindled for their ignorance, and we don’t feel any remorse for robbing stupid people out of their money”. But their intention is hardly a positive one.
[2012/08/28 16:03] Kimiko Yiyuan: Does not matter Extropia. Can be many, or not. Was a genearl question.
[2012/08/28 16:03] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): agreed Gwyn, extremes are never defining the everage. But the edge cases usually give a sharper pencilled insight into the mechanics
[2012/08/28 16:04] ArtCrash Exonar: Political Culture defines what is good and bad in a general way for us. They call it The Law. But many don’t obey because they don’t agree with it always. History is all about culture trying to define good and bad in a way to enable society to work well.
[2012/08/28 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sometimes, yes. For instance, I find the neurological examples of surgically removing parts of the brain until the result is a being that has no intention whatsoever and just acts rather interesting
[2012/08/28 16:05] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): politics and laws are two forces, working together. if they are the very same, you better leave that country
[2012/08/28 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I agree; all cultures try very hard to make sure that the amount of hurting others in a society is minimised
[2012/08/28 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that’s where ethics start.
[2012/08/28 16:05] ArtCrash Exonar: Politics is the method of determing the law.
[2012/08/28 16:05] Kimiko Yiyuan: I just think that Gwyns definition does not hold together when things get more complicated. Not that I have one of my own that would differ much, actually. But it will not get us anywhere, especially not when the quetion is how “evil” can be eliminated.
[2012/08/28 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, give me an example of a complex case, Kimiko 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:05] Kimiko Yiyuan: Which in my opinion is rather impossible anyway.
[2012/08/28 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: why is that?
[2012/08/28 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why “impossible”? It’s just very very very very hard.
[2012/08/28 16:06] Kimiko Yiyuan: Because I agree with Extropia and whoever also said that: Ecil, as good, is a rather subjective thing and influenced by many things.
[2012/08/28 16:06] Reynardo: if the survival of the fittest is a principle embedded in the universe then evil cannot be eliminated
[2012/08/28 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I certainly know a lot of people who have done exactly that; they just worked VERY hard at it.
[2012/08/28 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Remember, not even Darwin coined that phrase 😉
[2012/08/28 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: Actually… Psychopathy is a fascinating subject to study. If we could just cure that, in some way, we’d get rid of a pretty big chunk of evil.
[2012/08/28 16:07] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): to “remove evil” you first need to identify it. And in a solid, robust way
[2012/08/28 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kimiko: if you claim that evil is subjective, it means that you cannot project your intentions upon others,
[2012/08/28 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. you see all others as behaving randomly
[2012/08/28 16:07] ArtCrash Exonar: Elimination of ‘bad’ behavior has been one of the primary roles of cultural organization. BECAUSE everyone’s definition of good and bad are slightly different, competing interests make the elimination of that behavior not likely to happen.
[2012/08/28 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clearly I don’t believe in you 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: I would argue that ‘how to eliminate evil?’ is a mystery rather than a problem. A problem is where you do not know the answer but have some idea of what an answer may look like. A mystery is when you have no idea and do not even know what an answer would look like.
[2012/08/28 16:08] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): witchunting, war on terror, all these made their followers believe they can identify, define evil and so to fight it
[2012/08/28 16:08] Kimiko Yiyuan: More complex case (if you did not read it earlier or I overlooked your reaction Gwyn: What about an intention where you want to get benefits for others but have to harm some other group intentionally to reach that goal?
[2012/08/28 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go, Art: “competing interests”
[2012/08/28 16:08] Reynardo: when the supreme court justice said he could not define pornography but he know it when he saw, was he on to something?
[2012/08/28 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: What we have here is a part of the mind — or possibly even a part of the brain — that is under-developed.
[2012/08/28 16:08] ArtCrash Exonar: Reynarda, all that did was cloud the issue.
[2012/08/28 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know exactly the answer, Extie, and I know exactly the precise method to eliminate evil 🙂 Now, I’m also honest enough to say it’s VERY HARD and that the vast majority of people have no intention to go that route.
[2012/08/28 16:08] Reynardo: so we must agree on a definition before we can plan to eliminate it
[2012/08/28 16:09] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): to fite evil, we should start with
[2012/08/28 16:09] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): burning all the red heads
[2012/08/28 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol luisa 😀
[2012/08/28 16:09] Reynardo: lol
[2012/08/28 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Auburn counts as red? 😉
[2012/08/28 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles*
[2012/08/28 16:09] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): you cannot identify evilness in a robust way. so you cannot fight it. Not in the witchunting way
[2012/08/28 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: I thought you were strawberry blonde, Gwynie:)
[2012/08/28 16:10] Reynardo: if it cannot be eliminated, can it be minimized then?
[2012/08/28 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thus our perceptions are different, dear Extie 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: Yes.
[2012/08/28 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, let me try a different way.
[2012/08/28 16:10] Zobeid Zuma: Humans are a social species, and a big part of our views of good and evil ties into fitting in with society. But in the psychopath this social part of the mind seems to be weakened.
[2012/08/28 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You cannot eliminate evil in OTHERS.
[2012/08/28 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: THAT is impossible.
[2012/08/28 16:10] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a soft identification, as we do in our own reasoning every day, might minimize it
[2012/08/28 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can, at best, eliminate evil in YOURSELF:
[2012/08/28 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but that’s very hard.
[2012/08/28 16:10] Reynardo: i wish i could
[2012/08/28 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are methods 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:11] Extropia DaSilva: Stephen Pinker argues that humanity has become less evil as time has progressed. If so that demonstrates that not only CAN evil be diminished, it HAS.
[2012/08/28 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And none require expensive surgery or drugs 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:11] Reynardo: Pinker has a point up to a point.
[2012/08/28 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope Pinker’s right.
[2012/08/28 16:11] Extropia DaSilva: Although he may not have used the term ‘evil’.
[2012/08/28 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s true.
[2012/08/28 16:11] Reynardo: there are fewer wars than there used to be (sounds hard to believe but he makes the case)
[2012/08/28 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: I would say that our societies and institutions have improved over time. I’m not sure that means we’ve improved inherently.
[2012/08/28 16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least we’re going in the right direction.
[2012/08/28 16:12] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Pinker was right! Medieval … (“medi-evil”) … times are mostly gone
[2012/08/28 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: Bringing up another reason that ‘bad’ behavior cannot be eliminated, is that a certain small percentage of the population are defined as ‘Psychopaths’. Which means they have not empathy for others at all and therefore feel no guilt or shame. They do horribly bad acts, and there is no way to prevent them from doing those acts.
[2012/08/28 16:12] Reynardo: my parents were “innocent” racists and I have had to work to get over patriarchal ideas. there have been progress.
[2012/08/28 16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that bad behavious became more subtle…. people still get harmed, just more mentally and less physically
[2012/08/28 16:12] Extropia DaSilva: Well one argument of his is that if somebody like Ghengis Kahn had fought with modern weapons the slaughter would have been absolutely vast.
[2012/08/28 16:13] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): except in that country where they decapitated 17 party guests for “mixed dancing”. They allow dance only gender separated. (Taliban, 2012, Afghanistan)
[2012/08/28 16:13] Kimiko Yiyuan: It is impossible Extropia because everybody has its rather individual defintion what evil exactly is or can be. I mean, beyond the really obvious acts like intentional murder or child molesting, what are evil acts? Intentionally harming others sounds good at first, but as I said…when things get a bit more complex it is probably not a too good definition. We can feel harmed in many ways, and what someone thinks did harm to him or her, someone else might not care much about.
[2012/08/28 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: Way beyond anything we see in modern theatres of war.
[2012/08/28 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I would agree (as I repeated often) that serious mental disturbances have no way to accomplish the elimination of bad behaviour in themselves.
[2012/08/28 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: So is eliminating evil a classic case of the road to hell that is paved with good intentions?
[2012/08/28 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, I can imagine a society where ALL people EXCEPT psychopaths are avoiding harming others.
[2012/08/28 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: Why would you think that, Extie?
[2012/08/28 16:14] Kimiko Yiyuan: Yes, pretty much Extropia.
[2012/08/28 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, if by “eliminating evil” you mean “forcing others to stop their bad behaviour”, Extie
[2012/08/28 16:14] Kimiko Yiyuan: Because if you really would try that, the outcome might be more devastating than you expect.
[2012/08/28 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: Because maybe by setting out to eliminate evil I make the world a worse place to be in?
[2012/08/28 16:14] Reynardo: yes ys
[2012/08/28 16:15] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): that “theater” term on war areas, it makes me feel very uneasy. Like as if … some show act is staged. For the news, the embedded media reporters
[2012/08/28 16:15] ArtCrash Exonar: This topic is so Nietzchean. We are starting to understand moral relativity. Which btw, doesn’t imply no morality, just opposing moralities.
[2012/08/28 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kimiko: there you go; justifications. The trick is to stop hariming others NO MATTER HOW LITTLE YOU CARE.
[2012/08/28 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: Well… If you try to forbid and control everything and everone, and turn the world into a giant mental institute with attendants to keep sharp object away from everyone, let some real sicko hurt somebody….
[2012/08/28 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: moral relativity = inventing justifications to harm others
[2012/08/28 16:16] Extropia DaSilva: I think Baudrillard argued the Gulf war never happened because for most people it was a TV show rather than something they experiences ala world war 2 for their grandparents’ generation.
[2012/08/28 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: as I said at the very beginning — you cannot ‘fight evil with evil’. The fight itself is evil.
[2012/08/28 16:16] Zobeid Zuma: That’s not a way I’d want to go. But they are giving it a try in some countries! They even regulate kitchen knives in England now.
[2012/08/28 16:16] Reynardo: was Nietzche right then? there is no good or evil, only the will ro power?
[2012/08/28 16:16] Zobeid Zuma: They’re trying to develop a stab-proof kitchen knife. 😛
[2012/08/28 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn: moral relativity doesn’t mean that at all. It means that different cultures see morality differently than others. They are both attempting to be good.
[2012/08/28 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, he was totally wrong. He just wanted to argue that he, Nietzche, is “permitted” to harm others if he has a good philosophy that “allows” him to do so.
[2012/08/28 16:17] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): luisa hangs “road to hell that is paved with good intentions” over her writing desk
[2012/08/28 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: That is simple. Make a knife no point.
[2012/08/28 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are two levels here, Art
[2012/08/28 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is a society writing a certain rule, and saying: “we think this will harm less people and make more people happy”
[2012/08/28 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course different societies with come up with different rules.
[2012/08/28 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: They really should do that. There is no need for a kitchen knife to end in such a sharp point.
[2012/08/28 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The level that matters,
[2012/08/28 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is the one where that rule is put in place. Does it REALLY prevent people from being harmed?
[2012/08/28 16:18] ArtCrash Exonar: Saying Nietzche is totally wrong is like saying Newton was totally wrong. All thinkers have points that must be taken seriously.
[2012/08/28 16:18] Reynardo: i never thought about kitchen knives in that way before.
[2012/08/28 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: When you’re discussing moral relativity, you’re discussing it at an abstract level
[2012/08/28 16:18] Reynardo: if God is dead, all is permitted. it that true?
[2012/08/28 16:18] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): kitchen knives should be not sharp! so you can’t cut meat. Ooooh that solution is ingeniously simple
[2012/08/28 16:18] Zobeid Zuma: ridiculous, Reynardo….
[2012/08/28 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, that isn’t true at all. Moral relativity can be objectively discussed by pointing out different real world moralities in different cultures.
[2012/08/28 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: I’m an atheist and I don’t think all is permitted.
[2012/08/28 16:19] Reynardo: Nietszche said that. im just asking.
[2012/08/28 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I’m not saying that Nietzche is TOTALLY wrong. He’s just discussing things at an abstract level.
[2012/08/28 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: If individuals cannot decide what is evil how about humanity? Maybe the Web of humanity+ computational devices could become a superorganism that knows evil when it sees it and acts to eliminate it?
[2012/08/28 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, Art
[2012/08/28 16:19] Zobeid Zuma: One of the great scams of the world is religions hijacking morality and claiming to have some kind of monopoly over it.
[2012/08/28 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: right.
[2012/08/28 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you have not only to point at “moralities”, but see if people are being harmed or not
[2012/08/28 16:20] Reynardo: well then were does morality come from?
[2012/08/28 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: agreed
[2012/08/28 16:20] Extropia DaSilva: It evolved.
[2012/08/28 16:20] ArtCrash Exonar: Nietzche said god is dead, but he didn’t say all is permitted.
[2012/08/28 16:20] Reynardo: so it was somehow encoded in the big bang?
[2012/08/28 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reynardo: from observing first in yourself what makes you suffer and/or feel better; recognise that others have similar minds; then act to stop harming them and try to benefit them
[2012/08/28 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: Bats have a basic morality. They play tit for tat strategy with other bats: A basic morality.
[2012/08/28 16:21] Reynardo: ok. that is a good working definition
[2012/08/28 16:21] Zobeid Zuma: Big bang? You’ve lost me. 😛
[2012/08/28 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeah, Extie, but you’re falling into Nietzche’s trap
[2012/08/28 16:21] ArtCrash Exonar: Nietche and the later Existentialists concerned themselves with how to form personal moralities. Personal moralities that didn’t conflict with the interests of others.
[2012/08/28 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. discussing morality at the top level — disconnected about what people really feel
[2012/08/28 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: Maybe. Never having read any of his works I would not know if that is the case or not.
[2012/08/28 16:21] Reynardo: well if evolution is the result of a natural chain of causes going back to the beginning of the universe, then human behavior is simple cause and effect
[2012/08/28 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There’s no question about that, Reynardo 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The cause of all our acts is our mind having the intent of producing an effect 😉
[2012/08/28 16:22] Kimiko Yiyuan: Err, no Zo. Religion did not “hijack” morality. It is religious fundamentalists that hijack both morality and religion and claiming a monopoly over it. Religion and morality have always been rather connected and that is not necessarily a bad thing.
[2012/08/28 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I’ll leave out of the discussion if it’s our “subconscious” mind driving some acts
[2012/08/28 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: Heard another version of god is dead. In a concentration camp a young boy was hung. Somebody in the crowd asked ‘where is God’? and somebody else said ‘there he is, hanging on that noose’. He meant for him God had died.
[2012/08/28 16:23] Reynardo: not what Nietszche meant, but true for many people
[2012/08/28 16:23] ArtCrash Exonar: Each person’s culture attempts to define good and bad, right and wrong. And this is what we learn when we are young. When we are older we can then extend our own ideas into those moralities. This isn’t a LACK of morality. It is the process of how moralities are created.
[2012/08/28 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: what did Nietszche mean?
[2012/08/28 16:24] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): unable to phrase “morality, source, elitist, democratic approach” into a single meaningfull sentance. there is a slow thought forming.
[2012/08/28 16:24] Reynardo: he meant the abstract phiosophy in all its forms has died, incuding theology. so only the strongest will conquer.
[2012/08/28 16:24] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): morality is created by a small group
[2012/08/28 16:25] Kimiko Yiyuan: And thats why it is really not possible to eliminate it. Also because only when there are evil acts you know what the opposite..the good one…is.
[2012/08/28 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I certainly agree that’s the case, in the sense that it’s what happens. However, “morality”, specially “personal morality”, comes from the idea that we can justify some acts (for ourselves, and for others), independently of knowing very well that others will be harmed by our “moral acts”
[2012/08/28 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thus things like “fighting evil”, etc
[2012/08/28 16:25] ArtCrash Exonar: Nietzche was one of the first to show that moralities are the reponsibility of the individual. That those choices are not anything goes, but what works best for us AND society.
[2012/08/28 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wellllll
[2012/08/28 16:26] Reynardo: except for him society meant the superman and the master race
[2012/08/28 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would take issue with the “one of the first”; the Classic Greeks had done so eons before Nietzche, and that’s just to limit the discussion to Europe 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:26] ArtCrash Exonar: Well, one of the first modern philosophers to do so.
[2012/08/28 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. I can agree with that 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The others were still wallowing in the mire of religion 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:26] Extropia DaSilva: 4 minutes left to eliminate evil folks!
[2012/08/28 16:26] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): when did “modern” timelin in philosophy?
[2012/08/28 16:27] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ^timeline
[2012/08/28 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: After the 18th century
[2012/08/28 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: I would say it started with Berkeley
[2012/08/28 16:27] Kimiko Yiyuan: Yeah. Interesting discussion, but thinking that humanities greatest philosophers have bitten their teeth into that one for centuries probably made it a bit of a “running in circles” topic. haha
[2012/08/28 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: according to 18th-century philosophers themselves hehe
[2012/08/28 16:27] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): and before was? un-modern, ancient, or how called?
[2012/08/28 16:27] Reynardo: premodern
[2012/08/28 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: Before was Greek philosophy
[2012/08/28 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on the period
[2012/08/28 16:28] Reynardo: and we are stuck in the postmodern are we not?
[2012/08/28 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, in Europe you had scholastics
[2012/08/28 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: No
[2012/08/28 16:28] Zobeid Zuma: Postmodern… What a great word!
[2012/08/28 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: Post-post modern now.
[2012/08/28 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re stuck in trying to define if “postmodern” can be defined 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:28] ArtCrash Exonar: Then philosophy wasn’t allowed to be practices for what we now refer to as ‘the dark ages’ in the western world.
[2012/08/28 16:28] ArtCrash Exonar: practiced
[2012/08/28 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Art
[2012/08/28 16:28] luisa (luisa.bourgoin): 4 minutes isn’t even enuf to sharpen a pitchfork or light a torch. Meanwhiles, all redheads will dye their hairs
[2012/08/28 16:28] Reynardo: “things fall apart, the center cannot hold”
[2012/08/28 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meanwhile, elsewhere, those 1000+ years were not spent idly.
[2012/08/28 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: That is the point! There IS no universal definition. History and morality are points of view.
[2012/08/28 16:29] Zobeid Zuma: I think philosophy is still in the stone age. Although that’s probably because it’s become a catch-all category for everything that science can’t answer. If you come up with real results, then it isn’t philosophy anymore. 😀
[2012/08/28 16:29] Extropia DaSilva: that is postmodernism in a nutshell.
[2012/08/28 16:29] Reynardo: “and what rough beast slouches to Bethlehmen to be born?”
[2012/08/28 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I disagree in SO many points 🙂 Science IS philosophy; even today, every scientist gets the degree of Philosophical Doctor 🙂
[2012/08/28 16:29] Reynardo: Bethlehem
[2012/08/28 16:29] Kimiko Yiyuan: And evil is a point of view. Wasnt that said somewhere at the start anyway? haha
[2012/08/28 16:29] ArtCrash Exonar: Extie, there is no universal definition, but that DOES NOT mean that the lessons of the last 10,000 years of culture are thrown out the window. These lessons have led us to find ways to live together en masse.
[2012/08/28 16:29] Extropia DaSilva: Not it is not in the stone age but the age of the Greeks. We cannot seem to do much better than Socrates on so many ethical and existential questions:)
[2012/08/28 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, but we can put it into *practice*
[2012/08/28 16:30] Zobeid Zuma: Science used to be “natural philosophy”. But they parted ways a long time ago…
[2012/08/28 16:30] Extropia DaSilva: and with that…my time is up!