Thinkers August 14 2012: TIME

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/08/14 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the discussion is….
[2012/08/14 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: What is time? Would time exist in a universe with no change? Come and discuss issues to do with the mystery of time!
[2012/08/14 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: so Art had an idea for a discussion on time, so maybe she can elaborate:)
[2012/08/14 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Does anyone really know what Time it is? Does anyone really care *about Time.* I’ve got time enough to die.”
[2012/08/14 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Time is the ever-increasing entropy level of the universe — it’s an enormous heat engine.
[2012/08/14 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: I feel there is some irony in the fact we have one hour in which to discuss whether or not there is such a thing as ‘time’:)
[2012/08/14 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: grr Sl acting up again
[2012/08/14 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: boo
[2012/08/14 15:37]  Tom Bukowski: Some things never change…
[2012/08/14 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: We starting now?
[2012/08/14 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: yes
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, only in a universe with an ever-increasing entropy level; if there’s a parallel universe where that isn’t the case? And at the subatomic level, they’ve observed lower energy objects giving energy to higher energy objects
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Without thermodynamics a time dimension might exist, but it wouldn’t mean anything. Nothing would ever happen.
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn missed the topic
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: What is time? Would time exist in a universe with no change? Come and discuss issues to do with the mystery of time!
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh nice one.
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Time is interesting.
[2012/08/14 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: What is ‘the present’ is a better question
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Tom Bukowski: One thing I’ve written about from my Indonesia research that really interests me still is coincidental time
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, if by thermodynamics, you mean change in energy levels, then I think I agree with you. It would exist but be insignificant, as there would be no chancge
[2012/08/14 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I think time only makes sense in a universe witness to change.
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Tom Bukowski: It’s such a different way to think about time I still can’t really get my head around it
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: what is that, Tom?
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It took me a while to realise that time is not only totally subjective, but that absolute time truly cannot exist, which is sort of weird.
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Tom Bukowski: When you have multiple weeks like a 5 day week and a 7 day week (like on Java)
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, absolute time was shown to not exist by Einstein
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s what Einstein figured out too, Gwyn. 🙂
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Tom Bukowski: so time is detemrined by the intersection of cycles and
[2012/08/14 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So when we talk about thermodynamics, we just have to ‘pretend’ there is something like an ‘absolute’ time
[2012/08/14 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, once one has tried to understand Einsteinian spacetime. Time is much weirder than we think
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Tom Bukowski: in Geertz’s words a calendar doesn’t say “what time it is but the kind of time it is”
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, he didn’t really figure it out as much as he thought that certain aspects of physics would only make sense if Time was relative and the speed of light constant
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, but that was just maths for me — intellectually I understood it, but I always imagined there had to be something ‘absolute’ out there
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Tom Bukowski: we only really have it with Friday the 13th
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tom, what is coincidental time?
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Tom Bukowski: or when you say “we’ll meet the first Wed of every month”
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Tom Bukowski: but we don’t say “this is Friday the 13th number 1,456”
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Tom Bukowski: like we count regular time
[2012/08/14 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: No, Tom We have until December, then the Mayans will get their revenge! haha
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Tom Bukowski: it’s about a coincidence of cycles
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye — common references, common framework
[2012/08/14 15:40]  Tom Bukowski: and the cool think is the world for coincideence in Indoneisan is kebenaran
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, actually, it’s supposed to start in 5 days
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Tom Bukowski: from the root word benar, meaning “truth:
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tom, what is that? Coincidental time.
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Tom Bukowski: oh my
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Tom Bukowski: yep
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: “Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so!” — Ford Prefect
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Tom Bukowski: Tom Bukowski smiles
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Einstein once said ‘when you hit your thumb a second seems like hours, but in the company of a beautiful woman hours go by like seconds. And that is relativity’.
[2012/08/14 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a very good way to put it, Extie
[2012/08/14 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Here is a weird thing about time: phenomena happens, but our perception comes ‘after’. Which one is the present? I would have to be the perception, right?
[2012/08/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the truth is that we usually don’t think about time that way
[2012/08/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We think it’s something fixed, immutable, part of the Universe
[2012/08/14 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that brings up time distortion–which can be very real. Rosalyn was driving and the drunk in front of her had bales of barbed wire. Dozens of these dangerous, cutting cylindars fell off; suddenly time slowed way down for her and she could maneuver through them
[2012/08/14 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: so we have experienced ‘relative time’ even before Einstein showed the reletavistic effects that occur in strong gravity or acceleration.
[2012/08/14 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, there is nothing ‘linking’ a quantum Plank moment to the next, except our minds who ‘believe’ that
[2012/08/14 15:42]  Tom Bukowski: yeah, before the invention of clocks and such the experience of time was very different – daily time and also the cycles of the year, etc
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Tom Bukowski: that’s really interesting Gwyn
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Tom Bukowski: like how a movie is still photos that we link
[2012/08/14 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you extend the phenomena out to space, the present happened billions of years ago, but it is happening now with our perception. Maybe this is eternal recurrance.
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I had an interesting discussion once, on a blog….
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess the concept of time as units of hours, minutes and second cannot have existed prior to clocks?
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Every little town was on local, or sundial, time. Then they railroads came and that wouldn’t work anymore.
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Tom Bukowski: yep, didn’t use to have them
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The owner was an atheist, fighting believers and determinism,
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if you believe the Bible, days existed before the measurement of them
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Tom Bukowski: no standard time = train crashes lol
[2012/08/14 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and he claimed that tehre was not even cause and effect in the universe
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas. He cheated.
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Tom Bukowski: yes, days existed but measured by sunrise and sunset, etc
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: and I guess particle physicists think in scales of pico and femotoseconds?
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Now you can buy a YES WATCH and have sun time again, with a little computer on your wrist to calculate and display it.
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can mathematically express events that have no cause or effects that come before the cause,
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but that’s because time is not absolute
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we fix a frame, then effect will follow cause
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, that would show the present is not our perception though–we are seeing the distant past when we look out into the univrse
[2012/08/14 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it requires an observer to do that.
[2012/08/14 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Making of clocks is interesting, because it all depends on atoms vibrating is always the same.
[2012/08/14 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Tom, was it in your book that someone is quoted as saying space can be virtualized but not time?
[2012/08/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, for a number of observers closel together, Art 😀
[2012/08/14 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, to say time is not absolute is to say it varies from framework to framework; within your freamework, it can be constant
[2012/08/14 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s another way to express it, Rhi, yes
[2012/08/14 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds wonders if time distortion is a way to change the vibration of atoms
[2012/08/14 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Time’s Arrow is another interesting concept. Is time only one way?
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Tom Bukowski: I wrote about that with regard to virtual worlds, how we can all be in this nice loft from all over the planet, but we can’t be here at 1pm California time and 1pm Paris time at once, if you see what I mean
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, one way per parallel universe
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For a number of observers, yes
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /nod @ Tom
[2012/08/14 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: If our consciousness is ‘here’, isn’t that ‘us’ being ‘here’?
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and for some, mmmhj, Thinkers events just take seconds 🙂
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: No I think it was Sherry Turkle’s ‘Life On The screen’. The idea is this: We are all here in the same space but for some of us it is day, for others, night.
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If our consciousness is here, our time is here.
[2012/08/14 15:46]  Tom Bukowski: Yep, same idea
[2012/08/14 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the earth is small enough that we can have the illusion of simultaneity, Tom
[2012/08/14 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least on a macrocosmic scale, Rhi 🙂
[2012/08/14 15:47]  Tom Bukowski: Right, but if no internet and no electricity, say 1000 A.D., and you are in Damascus and I’m in Beijing, that’s hard
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m still unclear about coincidental time. Is it just a coincidence I say this every 500 words or so?
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: but with tech, absolutely can have synchronic soclality across distance online
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: LOL
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: It’s like Friday the 13th
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tom, yes, no simultaneity there either
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: a bad day, because the co-incidnece
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: of the weekly cycle and the monthly cycle
[2012/08/14 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: We have a 1/15 second time lag to the opposite side of the earth for our electronic communication.
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: two circles intersecting every so often
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s not that events can’t happen at the same time on here and Mars, it’s just that there’s no way to measure that, given the limitation of information flow
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: but in Java there is a 7 day week and a 5 day week, so EVERY day is like that
[2012/08/14 15:48]  Tom Bukowski: and in Bali, there is also a 3 day week
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh nice one.
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, and that’s not enough to mean anything to creatures of our neurology
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I heard about this tribe, lived all their life in a dense forest. One of them was taken up a hill he had never climbed, and he thought the tiny animals he could see below really were tiny. His mind had never needed to account for distance before, see. So um..our minds see things differently according to how they are nurtured.
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I only knew about the weird Tibetan calendar, which also has weeks with fewer days AND days with fewer hours.
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Tom Bukowski: so for instasnce you name a kid at the first triple coincidence of the three cycles if I remember correctly
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I see, Tom, so there are cycles and the coincide? Like say, the cycles of civilizations collapsing (like in Toynbee) and the Mayan cycles?
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Tom Bukowski: not really, because these are much more experience-close
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Extie
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Tom Bukowski: not epochal time
[2012/08/14 15:49]  Tom Bukowski: so say in Java
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Tom Bukowski: a certain coincidence of the 5 day week and 7 day week will be a market day
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Tom Bukowski: or a good day to pray at the mosqyue for luck
[2012/08/14 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: I still think Cows at the State Fair are ten feet tall, from my childhood memories.
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Tom Bukowski: so very everyday
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Ivy
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Tom Bukowski: LOL
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: hoy hoy
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Tom Bukowski: hello Ivy
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Sandra
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we sort of create our own coincidences?
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: when you are cryonically frozen there is but a moment to wait until you are revived, since in the interim period you are not conscious of the passage of time:)
[2012/08/14 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: I heard that many cultures see time as circular or cyclic, rather than linear. I guess I can understand where that comes from… Even though it’s so very wrong. :/
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Heya Ivy!
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: No Toy?
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, well, what they are saying is that there are cycles; if we have the Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle, they wouldn’t be wrong at all
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Sandra M. Lopes (sandra.fatale): Hello… mind if I join you?
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: toy is at bed 😛
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Not at all, please come in:)
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That might be good, Ivy 🙂
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Sandra M. Lopes (sandra.fatale): Thanks!
[2012/08/14 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: good for toy at least :p
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Confident AO – Preloaded ZHAO II: 5% memory free
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Extropia’s Antenna: Touch me for a control menu
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A time warp?
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: WB extie
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): First you step to the left
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then you jump to the right
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Tom Bukowski: LOL Rhi!
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then you put your hands on your hipis
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And pull your knees in tight
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haah Rhi
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): BUT IT’S THE PELVIC THRUST!!!
[2012/08/14 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): THAT REALY DRIVES YOU IN SAY, YAY, YANE.
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: sob I crashed:( Did I lose my swing seat?
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Let’s do the Time Warp again…
[2012/08/14 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: This idea that the present for each of us is a combination of many other ‘pasts’ intersecting our senses is an interesting one.
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Tom Bukowski: K, so as not to fill up the chat, I dug up an old article of mine with a couple good quotes on coincidental time, here it is, I’ll try to drop the notecard on everyone
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, we kept it warm for you!
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Art. That reminds me of the old past/present/future paradox….
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t understand that, Art. Also, I don’t think there really is any ‘present’. It’s just an illusion.
[2012/08/14 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Zo hehe
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Tom Bukowski: It’s hard to give you stuff because you’re swinging Extropia, lol, lemme know if you didn’t get it
[2012/08/14 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t think we can really add future to the discussion. It is past and present that we can only deal with.
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the trouble with the present being an illusion, is that since we live in the present, we’d be illusions too
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: You mean your link?
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mmmh we can all agree that the future doesn’t exist yet… it’s just wishful thinking about what it might be.
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the past, well, it’s a memory.
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it doesn’t exist any longer.
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The future doesn’t exist yet, the past is no more and the present is an illusion
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yep, all of temporal reality is an illusion
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The present is the intersection of two things that don’t exist.
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Only the eternal can be real
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, stop reading my mind!
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s getting creepy
[2012/08/14 15:56]  Tom Bukowski: Tom Bukowski is feeling very etherial
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, are you my alt?
[2012/08/14 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, the future is just a concept that will only be real in the present. So it can’t exist.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely an extension of your mind.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: This is times arrow
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: The past is just as “real” as the present and future. There’s really no difference between them, except perspective.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Art. But the past are just memories
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: The future does exist according to Einstein. ALL of time, past, present and future exists once and for all in a 4 dimensional block we call SPACETIME.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but both Einstein (not to mention his nemesis, QM0 and the Stoics thought that time is real
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we define “present moment” as the intersection of two things that don’t exist.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, exactly.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: except the past is also effects Gwyn. So not only memories
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: that is why there is no free will.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Right, Extie. And I don’t think anybody’s shown Einstein wrong yet.
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘effects’ or ’causes? 🙂
[2012/08/14 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And ok, maybe time is an illusion; but that would make us illusions. So we have levels of reality
[2012/08/14 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Buh! Einstein didn’t say there’s no free will!
[2012/08/14 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Like the effect of a star blowing up which we see in the present is the past becoming the present, now.
[2012/08/14 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: it does.
[2012/08/14 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hmmm, mystery of time—>levels of reality—>the Eternal
[2012/08/14 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Einstein thought that everything was determined, though, Zo
[2012/08/14 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Maybe time can only be defined as change.
[2012/08/14 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Einstein was no idiot, therefore he would never say there’s no free will. 🙂
[2012/08/14 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Which means some intellectual fancy footwork *not* to deny free will
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes… Everything is determined. Some of it is determined by US. That’s free will.
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Templeton Tigerpaw: GLQ – lol – and rarely lol
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If there is no future, how can it be predetermined? 🙂
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But if there is a future, like in relativity physics, how can it not be?
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that’s maths
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hee hee; poor Extie, Zo is determined to make the discussion about free will
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Abstract notions
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Useful to explain things
[2012/08/14 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie raised the subject.
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the truth is that we cannot hold the future in our hands.
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither can we hold the past 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m teasing, Zo; I could discuss free will until the cows come home.
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can *predict* the future though
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn moos
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In fact, when the cows come home, I’ll be fine with discussing free will
[2012/08/14 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting notecard, Tom.
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think you missed me, Tom, I didn’t get the notecard….
[2012/08/14 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, Phillip K. Dick “solved” that problem in “Minority Report.” The precogs always presented the alternative time tracks
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Tom Bukowski: Sorry Gwyn – there you go
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: 25 fps! if the tendency continues I’ll have to disable shadows and ambient occlusion!
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: ALL of time already exists. So does every action, every thought. It is all there, frozen in spacetime. I cannot have typed any other sentence other than THIS one. So where is my free will?
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Except in Tom Cruise’s case; they all predicted his divorce
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Tom Bukowski: Thank you Art – I do find it fascinating
[2012/08/14 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: We can however, see evidence of the past, but we can see no evidence of the future. So I think we must say they are not the same at all.
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Your free will is right there, where you decided what to type.
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm!
[2012/08/14 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We CAn predict the future, even if we don’t have ‘evidence’ for it
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, if we take a theological tack, your free will exists with divine foreknowledge because you act *at the moment* and that’s how He knows it. A secular version of that would perhaps work to solve the problem
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: saying that “everything exists” isn’t the same as “nothing exists”? 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We are only pre-determined from a perspective outside of time.
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Are we really, Rhi? 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Aghhh why will the camera not go where I NEED IT? GOD!
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or rather — how do you know that, since you’re bound to time? 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: time I think must be defined as change. Change in position or state or whatever. If there is no change, there is no time
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “I supect everyone and no one”–Inspector Clouseau in “A Shot in the Dark”
[2012/08/14 16:02]  Tom Bukowski: Maybe because you’re swinging? lol
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: ok, I like that simple definition of time
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: under Gwyn’s skirt?
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Time: measure of change
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what?!
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn gets shocked!
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, because the question of predetermination would only come up if the future is real and I’m aware of it and the present. Which means I have a perspective outside the time continuum
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: You can choose A or B. You can’t choose both… If you define ‘free will’ as somehow being able to choose both and have two different futures, then I guess there’s no free will… But that is not my concept of free will.
[2012/08/14 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: No I want a snapshot of Tom with me above him at the arc of my swing but nooooo the camera will not let me:((
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Tom Bukowski: lol
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually having multiple futures would negate free will, since no decisions would be meaningful.
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Rhi, ok. Lots of IFs in that sentence.
[2012/08/14 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: So we can measure change. And when we compare it to relative change of a rocket traveler. We can define their different times by their amount of change.
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller doesn’t believe in free will, souls, gods or angels
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: No Zo. Multiple realities SAVES free will.
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: in a sense., Having no future at all except as wishful thinking is also teh ultimate free will: nothing is set 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, well, in that scenario, there would still be free will. The thing is about free will is that it is a way to assign responsibility. With certain causes we don’t think it fair to assign responsibility Others we do. You sleep walk and kill your in-laws? No free will. You’re a schizophrenic and kill people in a movie theatre? You have free will.
[2012/08/14 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *that’s* the long and short of free will
[2012/08/14 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rather the ‘short’, but the more functional one 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Another blow for determinism.
[2012/08/14 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Responsibility is an ethical/social issue that is better set aside.
[2012/08/14 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Determinists rely on time not being an arrow.
[2012/08/14 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: if I have free will, then why do I get up later than I want every day!?
[2012/08/14 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem with determinism is that it has to work from a lot of assumptions, and they get more and more complicated as they have to deal with all the paradoxes needed to be explained…
[2012/08/14 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: did it! Got my shot!
[2012/08/14 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn thinks Extie is insane lol
[2012/08/14 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: What paradoxes?
[2012/08/14 16:06]  Templeton Tigerpaw: I don’t see how multiple realities save free will
[2012/08/14 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: It all seems very tidy to me.
[2012/08/14 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Multiple futures would not negate free will. It’s about assigning responsibility. Or it’s about locus of control. When Rush Limbaugh became unemployed, he said, he “didn’t accept it.” Made a job for himself. Assignment of responsibility and locus of control–perfectly compatible with determinism, even fatalism
[2012/08/14 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: First assumption: time exist and is independent of the observer, specially if the observer is out of time
[2012/08/14 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is a paradox in itself; if time exists then there cannot be observers out of time 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Determinism is easily disproved by the fact that the mathematics have infinities in them everywhere. It is the ultimate opposite of occam’s razor. This is also why I have trouble with the infinite multiple universe theories.
[2012/08/14 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You get all of those kind of things
[2012/08/14 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: In the multiverse perspective ‘I made the right choice’ means ‘a greater infinity of my copies made the same choice’.
[2012/08/14 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, they would just appear to be at all times. “Before Abraham was, I am”
[2012/08/14 16:07]  Tom Bukowski: Tom Bukowski is glad Extie got the shot! Tried to keep still…
[2012/08/14 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: But of course Einstein proved that Time wasn’t independent of the observer, Gwyn.
[2012/08/14 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t assume any observer outside of time.
[2012/08/14 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): As Jesus was saying that, he was also rescuing Shadrack, Mesach, and ABenego. “I see the Son of God,” Nebechadnnezer
[2012/08/14 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: I plan to caption it ‘Why can’t real gals have a bum as nice as Extie’s, thinks Tom’.
[2012/08/14 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we are much better served by thinking about SpaceTime instead of Time alone.
[2012/08/14 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that’s an alternaive explanation. However, they would be changeless at all times, and so, the conscious act of observing would have no meaning: something that cannot change cannot observe in the cognitive sense of the word
[2012/08/14 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, no “I think I made the right choice” is a prediction of the consequences of your actions
[2012/08/14 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: But in this universe those actions were predetermined.
[2012/08/14 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Consequences of actions are unpredictable in anything but a general sense.
[2012/08/14 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, I get you, Gwyn. Another way of understanding “outside of time” was given by Azimov, where the temporal engineers were outside the normal space-time continuum. They still have a time sequence of their own
[2012/08/14 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: nothing is 100% determined if you consider uncertainty principle
[2012/08/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I would claim that it requires a lot of semanthic argumentation about what “out of time” means. We already have a few examples: “being present at all moments”
[2012/08/14 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: so if time does not flow and is frozen into a single block..why do we experience the ‘flow’ of time?
[2012/08/14 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or even H.G. Well’s the Time Machine–which can only be understood with two temporal frameworks–the one in the laboratory and the one on the Time Travel bicycle
[2012/08/14 16:10]  Templeton Tigerpaw: Will – the locus of control – is merely a measure of the strength of your desire. So Limbaugh wanted a job bad. So what?
[2012/08/14 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Rhi, yes, that’s another possibility — e.g. time not as one-dimensional
[2012/08/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we would be talking about out of OUR time,
[2012/08/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and not out of Time
[2012/08/14 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Templeton, he wanted a job, figured out a way of getting it, and got it. That’s locus of control. Has nothing to do with whether it was pre-ordained before the first oceans rolled. That’s my point
[2012/08/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two different things!
[2012/08/14 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ivy, yes the uncertainty prinicple multiplied by massive increments in all directions at once.
[2012/08/14 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: we are kind of used to time as a dimension, though. We say ‘meet me at Art’s at these coordinates AT THIS TIME’.
[2012/08/14 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: “There is just one reality left: We are here and it is now. You get hold of that and hang onto it or you might as well be dead.” — Charlton Heston, in Planet of the Apes
[2012/08/14 16:11]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hard to grasp that concept of Time for me, as a linear scale
[2012/08/14 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s what it means that time is dependent on observers 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, it couldn’t be one dimensional to explain quantum reality. It would have at least three dimensions. 1) time’s arrow going from P to F; 2) Time’s arrow going from F to P (from 1’s perspective); 3) parallel time tracks and the possibility of moving between them.
[2012/08/14 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: figuring how to do something and doing it doesn’t prove free will, it proves only will 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘get your paws off me you…damn dirty ape!’-Charlton Heston, Planet of the Apes.
[2012/08/14 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then if there is “temporal engineering,” that implies another
[2012/08/14 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: agreed, and I’m fine in considering observers out of OUR timeline
[2012/08/14 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma thbbbts!
[2012/08/14 16:12]  Templeton Tigerpaw: Nobody said the first oceans rolled for Limbaugh
[2012/08/14 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think what we are talking about is why Eastern Philosophy focuses on the mind not wasting time dealing with the ‘future’ or the ‘past’, but only what can be experienced and interacted with….. the ‘now’.
[2012/08/14 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Do not mock the Heston, glory be to His name!
[2012/08/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That doesn’t mean, however, that for THEM our timeline looks ‘predetermined’
[2012/08/14 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, if tw use free will in the ordinary sense, it does. that’s all people mean by free will–assignment of responsibility and locus of control. Anything else is a philosopher’s hobby horse
[2012/08/14 16:13]  Templeton Tigerpaw: determinism is misconstrued to mean perfect causal connections to the first point
[2012/08/14 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “I’m leaving of my own free will,” meaning you don’t have to point that gun at me
[2012/08/14 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: some even go further as saying you cannot postulate something that exists based on two things that don’t exist 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘they are feeding us people! Next thing you know they will breed us like Cattle1 We gotta stop em!!! SOMEHOW!!!!!’-Charlton Heston- ‘Soylent Green’.
[2012/08/14 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I prefer your simple definition of free will, RHi 🙂 It saves a LOT of time
[2012/08/14 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: I can agree with such definition of free well, but I’d still rather avoid the term 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol is this the Heston Fan Club? .)
[2012/08/14 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:14]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): I dare hope not!
[2012/08/14 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar SHOUTS Soylent green is people!
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yummy!
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Tom Bukowski: Soylent green is avies!
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘the weak make few bricks, the dead make none’-Chartlon heston ‘the ten commandments.
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So are burgers, although they’re made of people who can’t talk.
[2012/08/14 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, if you’ve ever been in Puerto Rico, you would say things lilke that. They have two senses of time. When they say ‘tiempo norteamerico,’ they mean ‘Meet me at the time coordinates xx;yy A precise time.
[2012/08/14 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ever eat an avie?
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If they say ‘tiempo puertoricano’ you could be hours or days late
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2012/08/14 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, thank you and lol!
[2012/08/14 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): neat! and how about the Swiss with their clocks?
[2012/08/14 16:16]  Tom Bukowski: The Indonesians call it jam karet, rubber time
[2012/08/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: teh Swiss are mentally insane.
[2012/08/14 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: I like this discussion, it is focusing my thinking about ‘future’ and ‘past’ as concepts.
[2012/08/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, that’s good.
[2012/08/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That took me some time to grasp (double-pun intended)
[2012/08/14 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma suspects Gwyn has little experience with cows….
[2012/08/14 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if the broders of sanity lay somewhere in the Alps, there’s even worse than Swiss, believe me that
[2012/08/14 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moo?
[2012/08/14 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, sure, if you want to eliminate ‘free will’ as a concept altogether, but it has it’s places in law and in the psychology of success (e.g., sports psychology)
[2012/08/14 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: A cow is about as smart as a carrot.
[2012/08/14 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: so which has most reality for us? I say it is the past because everything we are aware of- apart from an instant- IS the past. Our lives are nearly all memory.
[2012/08/14 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, but tastes better
[2012/08/14 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Could be, luisa 🙂 My proof that teh Swiss are insane is that they’re the only long-lasting direct democracy in the world, and instead of the communist utopia everybody expected them to be, they’re a highly conservative but economically liberal society 😉 That’s madness.
[2012/08/14 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, it depends–there are past oriented people and future oriented people, and those who live in the present
[2012/08/14 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, love your irony.
[2012/08/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn has Swiss family members
[2012/08/14 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, it’s horrible. They’re prosperous and peaceful
[2012/08/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: when you retrieve something from your memory, you’re not ‘reliving’ the past
[2012/08/14 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, exactly!)
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You are just recalling a memoryof the past and experimenting it in the present
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s a NEW event
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: on time – if time runs faster the faster you move, and speed of light is subjective to observer yadda yadda, and we know we are moving in this very moment (planet around the sun, sun in galaxy and so on), then if we, somehow, went into a complete objective stop, would the time freeze?
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, oh, we must be close to the end of the hour; we’re being silly (Heston quotations) and my text is lagging
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: But how can we live in the present when the mechanism of thought and even information do not happen or travel instantaneously? What you are aware of is not HAPPENED!
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s obviously interconnected with the past, but it’s not “the Past”
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you’re starting to think in the right direction, Extie 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, what are you trying to do to the poor girl?
[2012/08/14 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, that’s advanced Eastern philosophy for you, Extie 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ivy, I think the point is that one cannot have an objective stop
[2012/08/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s when you start asking how you can possibly be in a ‘present’
[2012/08/14 16:20]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): so we live in the present, but experience the past, cause weÄre slow
[2012/08/14 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: everything is changing
[2012/08/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if you think like Extie is doing, luisa,
[2012/08/14 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’ve been to a truck stop, I’ve stopped what I’ve been doing, even stopped my car at a stop sign. Never experienced an objective stop
[2012/08/14 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We don’t EVEN live in the present really.
[2012/08/14 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: “It happened before. It’ll happen again. It’s just a matter of when.” — Charlton Heston, in Armageddon
[2012/08/14 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: So if memories are present re-creations, are memories exactly the same as fantasies? I think we need to acknowledge that previous ‘presents’ existed enough to have ‘weight’ in our lives…..
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘ch-ch-ch-changes/ turn and face the strange..time can change me, but I can’t trace time’- David Bowie
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol you guys and the Heston quotes!!!
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo and Armageddon tired of it
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: what is more real, your dream last night or your memory as a kid?
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Case proven. lol
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lol Rhi.
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, memories aren’t the same as fantasies–you access a memory by looking down and to your left; you access a fantasy by looking up and to your right.
[2012/08/14 16:21]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): luisa preferes Bowie instead of Heston
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But so true
[2012/08/14 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller thinks about coming to a complete absolute halt
[2012/08/14 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that memory is more real, BECAUSE the fantasy recreation was based on a previous present.
[2012/08/14 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: the memory. Dreams are forgotten and might as well never have happened.
[2012/08/14 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Exactly, Gwyn. It’s like those who say “We might be dreaming.” Nooo. The texture is different.
[2012/08/14 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The eye movement are different. No REM.
[2012/08/14 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: exactly. You label your experience as a kid as ‘real’ while your dream is labeled as ‘fantasy’
[2012/08/14 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But both are past memories
[2012/08/14 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: I label both as fantasy
[2012/08/14 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma yawwns….
[2012/08/14 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: From the perspective of how they’re archived in the brain, they’re just memories
[2012/08/14 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: but one has more meaning to us and to others
[2012/08/14 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I label the fantasy, fantasy, and the memory, memory
[2012/08/14 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But then I’m strange.
[2012/08/14 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well sure. You can assign whatever meaning you prefer 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I wish every dream could begin with you waking up in bed, going on to do weird shit before climbing back into bed and closing your eyes. That way, you could believe it really happened:)
[2012/08/14 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Don’t fall asleep on us, Zo
[2012/08/14 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hopefully strange means strange here
[2012/08/14 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some of my memories are pretty good fantasies, I must say. And the fact that they were once ‘present’s makes them more involving.
[2012/08/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is just to recognise that it’s the labeling that matters. Not the distinction between one event and the other, because, from the perspective of the mind (or the neurological storage in the brain) it’s the same thing, just with different labels.
[2012/08/14 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, it was ironical; a dream, like Gwyn just pointed out, has a different structure than waking life; a fantasy has a different location in your morphogenic field than a memory
[2012/08/14 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And everything else is just a smokes screen.
[2012/08/14 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: morphogenic field!
[2012/08/14 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no idea if I have a morphogenic field, but I know that people liek Damasio can slice my brain, look at what I call memories and what I call fantasies, and they will find them to be exactly the same.
[2012/08/14 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: did you ever do something in a dream that you regretted, and then felt relieved after waking up?
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, yeah, you can make a mistake–think that you’re having a memory and it’s really a fantasy
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh, yes, I peed when I was 5…
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): gwyn, I was just going to say something similar.
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: haha! 😀
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I was relieved!
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, lol!
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: the mind makes little distinction between a memory of the past and anticipation of the future. You could call our imagining a possible future a memory of an event that never happened.
[2012/08/14 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Here is an interesting question: They say some children are better at fantasy making than others. Do they make better memories than those who aren’t good at fantasizing? Or does it have no bearing on it?
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: it was being relieved AFTER waking up, not while still asleep
[2012/08/14 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: agreed. Again, it’s the same thing.
[2012/08/14 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, it’s not the same thing
[2012/08/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So where is the difference?
[2012/08/14 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Different location, different functionality
[2012/08/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How so?
[2012/08/14 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, lol; I told you. A fantasy is up and to the righ; a memory is down and to the left
[2012/08/14 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the process of manifesting fantasy … is a creative art
[2012/08/14 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah lol
[2012/08/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, ok, you were pulling my leg, Rhi 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A memory allows us to repeat an action, find a place, recognize a lelative
[2012/08/14 16:27]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): left and then second door?
[2012/08/14 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OH, no, Gwyn, I’m serious.
[2012/08/14 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: So maybe a Fantasy is a ‘future’ memory? Because it didn’t happen? just in the same way the Future didn’t happen?
[2012/08/14 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You are?
[2012/08/14 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s one way you can tell a liar
[2012/08/14 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Watch their eyes to see if they are really remembering or making things up
[2012/08/14 16:28]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): so a professional liar will remember, after lying
[2012/08/14 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They knew Berkowitz was really telling the truth by his body language.
[2012/08/14 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, philosophically can one make the unequivocal statement: “The future didn’t happen” ?
[2012/08/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I actually remember that from “Lie To Me”
[2012/08/14 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, a professional liar well look down and to the left as a matter of disguising
[2012/08/14 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, but that’s just a way to express things with body language,
[2012/08/14 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): When he doesn’t want you to believe that he really saw Big Foot, he will look up and to the right
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Tom Bukowski: Tom Bukowski looks down and to the left
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, it shows that in the mental “space” there are locations
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because in the mind of the liar, the liar knows how to label some things as ‘real’ and some as ‘fantasy’, right?
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: I can make a linguistic statement that the future didn’t happen because future is the stuff that didn’t happen
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What you call locations I call labels, I guess
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: *et
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: **yet
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I call them locations because people can actually point to them.
[2012/08/14 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: linguistics always comes to the rescue, Ivy
[2012/08/14 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We carry with us a ‘spatial map’ of our mind.
[2012/08/14 16:29]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if we see future as possibilities, most of them all will not happen. Only one possibility can become reality
[2012/08/14 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nevertheless, we have lots of research on people with brain damage where they cannot distinguish reality from fantasy
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the same happens under drugs, for example
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, yes, and of all the infinite possibilities, God will choose the one with the most perfection.
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That case is naturally even more interesting. If we can ‘cheat’ our brain to confuse fantasy with memory,
[2012/08/14 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, the point is, is it fantasy if it is experienced?
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: well, language is more useful than philosophy 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): I would love to have two different wednesdays tomorrow. But I will get merely one, as every week. Sucks
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: then it means that those things are just arbitrary labels
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, who is that guy who writes books like ‘the man who mistook his wife for a hat’?
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Tom Bukowski: Oliver Sacks
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, CIA deep training allows that. You can go into a mind set where you really believe your cover story
[2012/08/14 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, him. he has face blindness.
[2012/08/14 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or into SL and believe you’re a digital person, like Extie 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): er, not that I’d know. Never really worked for Special Forces or the CIA; just happen to know people who did.
[2012/08/14 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You all believe me, right?
[2012/08/14 16:31]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): somehow I can sense that God will deliver not even a near-perfect wednesday 😦
[2012/08/14 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Only on Tuesdays, Rhi 🙂
[2012/08/14 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie doesn’t log to SL, Extie logs to RL
[2012/08/14 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Another day we need to discuss the meaning of ‘REAL’…..
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