THINKERS AUGUST 07 2012: FUNDAMENTALS OF SL

 
Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/08/07 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Zo, the thing is you can’t be fixed and not fixed at the same time. Agreed? So if the future is fixed that means the present, which leads to the future, is fixed. And that means you have no choice, no real one, in doing what you’re doing
[2012/08/07 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: A choice implies selecting one thing and rejecting another. The thing that you select is your future. That doesn’t somehow retroactively erase your decision. It’s a result of your decision. They’re inextricably bound together.
[2012/08/07 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we are discussing…
[2012/08/07 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: As Wagner James Au calls for radical change to SL, what are the fundamentals of our online world? In other words, what can we not change without losing the essence of SL?
[2012/08/07 15:32]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Good topic!!
[2012/08/07 15:32]  Lee (leezahsmiles): ***smiles***
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Lee
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: thank:)
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Glad I made it in time!!
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Hi Rhi! **waves*** ***smiles***
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, you beat the crowds;)
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It was interesting that things began to rez as soon as you said, “Time for Thinkers,’ Extie
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Bad logic, Rhi. There is no explanation for how a fixed future and fixed past “means you have no choice”.
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Heeee heeeee indeed this!
[2012/08/07 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: maybe it is sufficient to believe you have free will?
[2012/08/07 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): it’s really the simplest logic, Zo, if A is fixed and A is brought about by B, B is also fixed
[2012/08/07 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, we *obviously* make choices. We do it all the time. And yet, we can still imagine a universe with predestination.
[2012/08/07 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: can we get off ‘free will’ now?
[2012/08/07 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: Newsflash: SL marketplace set a new record for monthly users at 500,000. So basically Hamlet is the ‘Chicken Little’ of SL.
[2012/08/07 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s *her* fault! ::points to Zo::
[2012/08/07 15:34]  Lee (leezahsmiles): 500,000??
[2012/08/07 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes. A is fixed. And B is fixed. And the decision that got you from A to B is fixed. But you still made the decision.
[2012/08/07 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: yes
[2012/08/07 15:34]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Wowwwww
[2012/08/07 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: It wasn’t somebody twisting your arm.
[2012/08/07 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I did toy with making the topic ‘is Hamlet right that SL residents hate change’.
[2012/08/07 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, from what I can tell, SL is making a profit, the weekly report is fine, and there are, as you say, 500,000 users on the marketplace
[2012/08/07 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: 500,000 individual different users, not visits.
[2012/08/07 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Luisa:)
[2012/08/07 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They know longer post the number of users online, but I bet it’s still 50,000 daily
[2012/08/07 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Everybody hates change, Extie. It’s human nature.
[2012/08/07 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Just because Hamlet Au doesn’t like to come inworld, he assumes that nobody else does either……
[2012/08/07 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, true enough; I’ve thought that’s why many people think I’m someone else; they ahte change, they can’t stand the idea that she left and I arrived. So I must be her
[2012/08/07 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It seems to me that the lindens are responding to market forces; my home page looks more like Facebook, there are new features that make saving outfits easier and other things easier too
[2012/08/07 15:37]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): oh Facebook!
[2012/08/07 15:37]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hope they recover from stock value
[2012/08/07 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello again, Veliini. Grab a seat, hon.
[2012/08/07 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: We cannot change from detailed building tools to dumbed down building tools for one thing.
[2012/08/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I would say one fundamental is that anybody can be a content creator.
[2012/08/07 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: We cannot change the ability of residents to sell items that they make.
[2012/08/07 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Extie, agreed.
[2012/08/07 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Vel!
[2012/08/07 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Blue Mars failed because of that.
[2012/08/07 15:39]  Vellini Evanier: hi all nice to meet you though I must leave shortly as duty will call ㋡
[2012/08/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Did it?
[2012/08/07 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, lack of creators led to lack of content which led to lack of interest….
[2012/08/07 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally I have two fundamentals. Anyone can be a builder, and freedom of identity, which basically means you can take on any identity you want provided it does not infringe on someone else’s.
[2012/08/07 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): and lack of residents, finally
[2012/08/07 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: That was also what happened to the first attempt at Wikipedia, by the way.
[2012/08/07 15:41]  Vellini Evanier: I have found that IMVU also seems to suffer from that problem
[2012/08/07 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Freedom of identity is critical.
[2012/08/07 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: No real name requirements!
[2012/08/07 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): IMVU suffers from poor graphics; you can be photorealistic in your avatar in SL
[2012/08/07 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “Freedom” as not in “free markets”
[2012/08/07 15:41]  Lee (leezahsmiles): You can Rhi??? I need a class on that!!
[2012/08/07 15:41]  Vellini Evanier: poor graphics, lack of residents etc
[2012/08/07 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, not quite photorealistic…. but definitely way way better than it used to be.
[2012/08/07 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, I also think for SL to be ‘itself’ you can’t dumb down the graphics.
[2012/08/07 15:42]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): but I believe cartoon worlds can take pace, too
[2012/08/07 15:42]  Vellini Evanier: no and why should we?
[2012/08/07 15:42]  Vellini Evanier: there is a place for all forms of expression right?
[2012/08/07 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’ve seen picture of people and they look about like my avatar; it’s pretty darn close, Zo
[2012/08/07 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: These things have been talked about by Hamlet Au and others as the future of SL. That is why we are talking about it.
[2012/08/07 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And yeah, the freedom of expression has to stay; and that’s accomplished by the maturity rating system and private sims
[2012/08/07 15:43]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I have heard of cartoonized photos that can be used in virtual worlds to create avatars…
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Lee (leezahsmiles): But what IS the “future” of SL???
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Lee (leezahsmiles): How is it expected to change?
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Vellini Evanier: so sorry to have to leave but it was great to “meet” all of you ㋡
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody is now offering a service whereby your RL head is scanned and made into a mesh head for your avatar.
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Bye Vellini
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye!
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Vel!
[2012/08/07 15:44]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Cooooool Extropia!!!
[2012/08/07 15:45]  Lee (leezahsmiles): that is creepy but cool at the same time!! ***chuckles***
[2012/08/07 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas for being always late.
[2012/08/07 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwyn.
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiya Rhi!
[2012/08/07 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): helloes!
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’re talking Hamlet’s idea that late avatars should be vaporized as a way to imporove SL
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Hi Gwyn! ***waves**
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn waves back!
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Hi Luisa!! **waves**
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Better to be late, Gwyn than ‘the late’ Gwyn.
[2012/08/07 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: My observation of what most people do in SL is A) Hangout with their friends B) Shop for things C) Listen to Music at Clubs and Events D) Roleplay specific cultures E) Tour around looking at interesting Sims and art and F) try to pick each other up and have SLex.
[2012/08/07 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): well whatever, VRs are not made for reality. more for .. Virtuallity
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie! LOL
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Heee heeee Extopia
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: B, B, B!
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Have you seen? No Ari!
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, good outline
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I meant to type Extropia
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww. I thought Ari hadn’t rezzed!
[2012/08/07 15:46]  Lee (leezahsmiles): ooops
[2012/08/07 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Art got down to the core essence
[2012/08/07 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But people also have freedom of expression here–the avatars that they like or want.
[2012/08/07 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I would put that as G–socialize with the appearance you want
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh. I like G.
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And thus, we have a complete outline of the basic goals of SL, and can go bck to the discussion of free will
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: G for Gwyn
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/08/07 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): music is a key of SL (not elaborating on SLex here) and point B), shopping, is over emphasized in my mind
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! It’s free will today?
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: No!
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No free will? Aww
[2012/08/07 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: What I love about SL is that you don’t have to do any one set of things. The variability of what you can do and be is huge.
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, but Zo and I were going hot and heavy before the discussion began
[2012/08/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe
[2012/08/07 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear, hear, Art
[2012/08/07 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, it’s like, well, a *second* life
[2012/08/07 15:49]  Lee (leezahsmiles): True ArtCrash…..
[2012/08/07 15:49]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Lee grins at Rhi’s statement
[2012/08/07 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: luisa: shopping is emphasized because it is one of the key ways LL can have an income.
[2012/08/07 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You can start a business here, get a job here, hang out with your friends, and go places you’d like to go (like New Zealand or Guatamala)
[2012/08/07 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hey! What’s so wrong about shopping?!
[2012/08/07 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: What I love about SL is you. The people I met here.
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I haven’t spent one penny of my own money in SL and I joined six months ago and I’m on everyday….
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shopping is emphasized because it’s a *second* life and you have to buy stuff–might as well enjoy it
[2012/08/07 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: See? We are point A! Hanging out with friends!
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I am not the Linden’s ideal SL user then….heee heeee
[2012/08/07 15:50]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): they dead alley of shopping is called big inventory
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m a little sad that most shopping is on the marketplace now
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Lee (leezahsmiles): *Lindens
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Why Rhi? It is sooo convenient…
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: oo now..what does a Linden ideal user look like? Art? Gwyn?
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m still struggling with inventory organization.
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Lee (leezahsmiles): No hassles in the stores that are organized horribly….
[2012/08/07 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not “Most shopping”, Rhi. It just SEEMS that way
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course, the abomination of the inventory window is part of the problem.
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lee, that’s why the change, and I do it too. But the idea of going to a mall~naked~appeals to me
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Lee (leezahsmiles): No stairs for your avatar to have to maneuver to see merchandise….
[2012/08/07 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Shopping isn’t about getting things and being done, Shopping is like a river you continue to step into the ever changing stream….
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What’s a “Linden Ideal”?
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe Jamie? She sure shops a lot, and she is a scripter so she makes content, too.
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, well put
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Oh yes Rhi….I keep forgetting your exhibitionist fetish….heee heeee
[2012/08/07 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s good, Lee; I want it to be like everyone else’s fetish.
[2012/08/07 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So people do forget it’s supposed to be like *totally* shocking
[2012/08/07 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: So any change that helps make content creation easier and/ or richer, and helps expand opportunities for identity exploration is good. yes?
[2012/08/07 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Back to being able to express yourself as you want to in SL
[2012/08/07 15:52]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Gwyn, I think the Lindens want users who spend, spend, spend….not the cheapo users like me…with free accounts who only use freebies!! LOL
[2012/08/07 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think from LL’s point of view. The ideal user owns a large piece of land and pays monthly tier and remains stable over time.
[2012/08/07 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes
[2012/08/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lee; I would agree that that’s what they would PREFER 🙂
[2012/08/07 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it might be the kind of changes that increase the profits of the lindens. Especially if it involves *shopper*
[2012/08/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: yes!
[2012/08/07 15:53]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Art, but even if the users own land, the Lindens are making their big money really from consumer purchasing not so much land ownership…
[2012/08/07 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lee, it’s all one; they get their cut from land usage, from consumer purchasing.
[2012/08/07 15:54]  Lee (leezahsmiles): There are some shopping addicts who spent $100 U.S. dollars a month on their avatars….they are the Lindens dream!! LOL
[2012/08/07 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lee, I have to disagree with that, the majority of the Lab’s income is land tier.
[2012/08/07 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Most of which, I bet, gets plowed bck into maintaining and upgrading SL
[2012/08/07 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lee, Yes, I heard of one teen age girl who spent that much; she was on the Dr Phil show
[2012/08/07 15:54]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I didn’t know that Art….
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I thought at first he was confusing lindens with dollars, but no…
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to disagree with Lee too
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Is it true there are 33,000 sims in SL now??
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: probably more by now:)
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LL actually just cares about a few hundred land barons who provide them 80% of their income
[2012/08/07 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Lab’s percentage of commerce is a few percent when you buy and sell Lindens and a few percent of items sold on the marketplace.
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (as reported by Hamlet Au on an interview he made)
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: must be true!
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lee, I thought more than that, but 33,000 may be about right
[2012/08/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Art says. But that percentage is very small
[2012/08/07 15:56]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I heard that a full sim costs $300 U.S. dollars a month to rent…. hmmmmm multiplied by 33,000……chaching!!!!
[2012/08/07 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the Lab would be well served by making a sales tax of say ten percent on all commerce and greatly reducing land tier prices.
[2012/08/07 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some are a bit cheaper than that, Lee, but yes, that’s true
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: plus US$1000 setup fees
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Lee (leezahsmiles): whoa
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Art’s suggestion and has even proposed that publicly 😉
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure how they would enforce a sales tax.
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very simple.
[2012/08/07 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: I pay 195 US dollars a month for the sim we are in now. This is Mainland.
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: how many cover those costs through inworld work like shops or what-have-you?
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, they do already on the marketplace
[2012/08/07 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: a few thousands, according to the Lab
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh.
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I keep on forgetting you’re a sim owner, you seem so nice.
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Lee (leezahsmiles): ***giggles***
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, that’s fine… if you can force everything to go through the marketplace.
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: so is owning land a fundamental?
[2012/08/07 15:58]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Art, I hope that leaves still moneh for clothings and stuff”
[2012/08/07 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m NOT a land baron, Rhi! haha I have no renters
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: no, you can enforce it in-world too
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I can’t spend $195 U.S. on a sim….there are groceries to buy….electric bills to pay…. heee heeee
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: for LL, yes.
[2012/08/07 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, that’s fine… if you can force everything to be done through the marketplace or in-world…
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lee: 80% of the people who own sims do it as a *business*
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Lee (leezahsmiles): They do??
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yep.
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Remember the marketplace originally didn’t even belong to Linden Labs. It was an independent company. What’s to keep somebody else from starting up a new one?
[2012/08/07 15:59]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): business emulations?
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah but is it for us? If you could keep content creation and identity exploration but do away with renting land, is that still SL?
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lee, I almost owned a sim, but that was before my personal finances went south; it’s really simple–a car, health insurance, or a sim cost about the sim. So you can choose–transportation, access to medical technology, or running a sim.
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The remaining *probably* are people who can afford it — instead of wasting it in buying PlayStation games, more clothes, etc
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s OpenSim!
[2012/08/07 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: What do you mean..’wasted’ on PlayStation games!!?
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I thought most of the sims in SL are dance clubs and porno playgrounds…
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, and so far–no competition to what SL can do
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi; I prefered to give way more superfluoius examples 😀
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins @ Extie
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: I know some of my favorite sims from the past have disappeared because of the upkeep cost. Like Oyster Bay, and the Museum of Robots…
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds grins at Extie
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Soooo true Rhi….
[2012/08/07 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: The original question of what makes SL, what it is, can be answered by going over to an Open Sim world like InWorldz. The answer is vast choices of whatever you are looking for and way more people. The social aspect and the sheer scale of SL is what makes it unique.
[2012/08/07 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh I like the sound of museum of robots. Shame I missed that one.
[2012/08/07 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I totally agree with Art.
[2012/08/07 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But you can get the money back. The sim owner at Eternal Desires gets 2/3rds of his expense back in the rents paid
[2012/08/07 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So his output is more like $100 a month, not $300
[2012/08/07 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if the argument against it would be, “oh, but it has to start somewhere!”. Possibly. But after a year, SL was *already* so vast and had this sheer amount of variety….
[2012/08/07 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): this is the highest tier level ever. on the long run, it will approximate webspace server costs
[2012/08/07 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: But why should new worlds not very quickly surpass SL in content and users, simply by building in superior services from the beginning?
[2012/08/07 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, well, maybe not–as you get a lot more than on a webserver, but you’re right to bring out that would be the competition
[2012/08/07 16:03]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): agreed, webspace is sometimes … below costs
[2012/08/07 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if they do, they do, Extie; as long as they approximate the value of SL, they will prosper, and make SL more efficicent
[2012/08/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: a question that hundreds of VW creators would dearly like to know.
[2012/08/07 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Another thing we take for granted is the progress being made on a lot of Virtual world fronts. From the technical way things run to the evolution of virtual world art. Things are continuously getting better and more complicated.
[2012/08/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The answer is: nobody knows the answer.
[2012/08/07 16:03]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): partially it depends on energy consumptions per calculation
[2012/08/07 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Open Sim doesn’t have the graphics, there’s another that allows for free and open sex–but that’s all you get. The graphics aren’t the same
[2012/08/07 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, if there were an online world like SL only with far superior, intuitive user interfaces and content creation options, would that not very soon aquire enough people to be a serious rival for SL?
[2012/08/07 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: That sounds like a contradiction, ArtCrash… “getting better and more complicated”. So which is it? :/
[2012/08/07 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most Open Sims don’t even have physics.
[2012/08/07 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: they don’t have the graphics because the top-of-the-line content creators are NOT in OpenSim.
[2012/08/07 16:04]  Lee (leezahsmiles): SL is the only virtual world I have been part of so far…
[2012/08/07 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, sure, but that’s competition
[2012/08/07 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I think an online world like SL only with a decent user interface and viewer that doesn’t crash, would have a big advantage.
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, me too Lee.
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sure you’re both wrong 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I have never seen any other ones…but I heard there is a French version of SL with free land…
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, they’re in SL lol Why? Because they get paid well. Why? Because of the tier…
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, alas, the explanation is too long.-winded
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Lee (leezahsmiles): How can they survive if they give away the land????
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They don’t.
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are constantly opening and closing, Lee 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lee, there are a thousand virtual worlds out there now. Most of them tiny.
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘If you look closer it’s easy to trace/ the tracks of my tier…’
[2012/08/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The most successful ones are charging pretty close to what LL charges
[2012/08/07 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, lol!
[2012/08/07 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is True Gwyn, and it is true because they have had to face the same economic realities.
[2012/08/07 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly,.
[2012/08/07 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Maybe i’ll be there to take your hand/maybe I’ll be their to share they land/They’ll be giving away when we all (second) life together…”
[2012/08/07 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: Bandwidth costs are high for this type of VR world.
[2012/08/07 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As soon as a virtual world grows, it starts hitting into the same maintenance and operating costs…
[2012/08/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: OpenSim operators just have a slight advantage over LL:
[2012/08/07 16:07]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): bandwidth and energy costs are hard limitations
[2012/08/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) They don’t need to have developers to develop the viewer
[2012/08/07 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So rather than SL changing, then, these other worlds will be modelling after the lindens model, as they’ve faced all these challenged. Simple “In search of excellence” modelling
[2012/08/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) They don’t need developers to develop the server
[2012/08/07 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But barring that, the rest of the expenses are the same.
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that’s what we have been seeing on the OpenSim crowd, yes
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, those two expenses you’ve mentioned are maintenance costs on two very vital assets they lack
[2012/08/07 16:08]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): perhaps if there’S a crowd approach based on free software and ipad tablets spare calculations time …
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: I still want to see somebody create a world without permission flags.
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: OpenSim is free software.
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: try Cloud Party 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Eh?
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No permissions 🙂 So you can’t copy ANYTHING
[2012/08/07 16:08]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): luisa unchecks [ ] Modify
[2012/08/07 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: NOT what I was thinking of. 😛
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Ivy!
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Ivy!
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins
[2012/08/07 16:09]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): dirty pirates!
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: hey heyo
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: so do we learn about the fundamentals of SL from these other online worlds/ social networks?
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn says hi to Ivy too
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Hi Ivy!! **waves**
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well. WE might learn, Extie,
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but we are already in SL 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Ivy:) Nice to see you again, dear.
[2012/08/07 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: What really needs to happen is a universal convention on Virtual Worlds that established standards for IP protection and money exchange. Until something like this happens, We won’t have a large adopted VR world ‘net’.
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, yes, but it’s more that they learn the fundamentals of survival from sL
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The question is if the OTHERS are learning anything.
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: do you think they are?
[2012/08/07 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: There is the VWRAP group.
[2012/08/07 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I think that will come–a few weeks after the One World Totalitarian State run by the Bilderburgers
[2012/08/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no, or they wouldn’t be trying and trying and failing
[2012/08/07 16:10]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): would like to see the “internet” approach going on VRs. as in “interconnected … web servers”
[2012/08/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well luisa
[2012/08/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Theoretically, we have all that.
[2012/08/07 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: We have the technology!
[2012/08/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Standard open source and free software: OpenSim
[2012/08/07 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: An integration protocol,
[2012/08/07 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: These conventions for standards are common. There are many for internet standards already, Rhi.
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: supervised by the IETF: VWRAP
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many people support that? None.
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even the OpenSim crowd has given up on VWRAP,
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and implemented HyperGrid
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: much easier.
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Guess what?
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: You mean the metaverse, Luisa? A common standard for communication, exchange of money and creation and moving of content between online worlds?
[2012/08/07 16:11]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): most “standards” are meant as inhibitors?
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ALmost NONE of the commercial OpenSim operators implements HyperGrid!
[2012/08/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why? Because once they do that,
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I keep on having friends go to OpenSim and then I check my watch and whistle as they come bck.
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: people can buy content on their grids,
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Lee (leezahsmiles): LOL Rhi
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but go to their ‘home grid’ where they don’t pay for tier
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yes.
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not laughing at Rhi, Lee. That’s what happens.
[2012/08/07 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well put Gwyn
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, well, commercial OpenSim operators are as closed as LL
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the same reasons
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Lee (leezahsmiles): I wasn’t laughing her….. I was just laughing!
[2012/08/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe okies Lee
[2012/08/07 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): She was laughing because I made my point in an amusing way. Must I explain *everything*? lol
[2012/08/07 16:13]  Lee (leezahsmiles): Yes thank you Rhi….
[2012/08/07 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the enclosing barriers are still bandwidth and computation times
[2012/08/07 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Closed worlds with their own currencies allow commerce with IP protection. And that is what is needed.
[2012/08/07 16:13]  Lee (leezahsmiles): ***grins***
[2012/08/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles*
[2012/08/07 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): just storage space got cheaper
[2012/08/07 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): energy is rising in costs
[2012/08/07 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Does the news that the Linden viewer now prohibits viewer login option to Sl’s open source spinoffs mark a step back from the integration of the online worlds?
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: We never had IP protection on MUCKs. But then, we never had anything of value on the MUCKs either.
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, again, we DO have the technology and the protocols for the Metaverse
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So we’ve moved from “What does SL need to do to survive?” to “Let’s look at the SL model of (business) excellence to see if there can be any viable competition”
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: producing energy is not rising in costs, tax on energy does
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. A well-made point. It will be interesting to see what happens.
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: blasted CO2 politics
[2012/08/07 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie, I think that whole think failed a couple of years ago. They are just putting the period on it.
[2012/08/07 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: thing
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: right! I have my answer to that question…
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: what ‘thing’, Art?
[2012/08/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What failed a couple of years ago?
[2012/08/07 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Lab’s giving up on between VR world surfing thing.
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma looks around….
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Mark Kingdon’s rule:)
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, you mean aside form Obama’s economic strategies?
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: SL needs men! (Or does it?)
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: metaverse is the subject of discussion? :p
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: No..
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: it is this..
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: As Wagner James Au calls for radical change to SL, what are the fundamentals of our online world? In other words, what can we not change without losing the essence of SL?
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): With gender alteration, the market supplies how many of each gender there should be–not nature
[2012/08/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles @ Rhi — I’m ignorant about Obama’s economy strategies
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, so is he, unfortunately
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha well said
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: radical change to SL, haha
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The point is that is one failure from 2 years ago
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, Extie… that question is soooo hard to answer,
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: companies don’t do radical changes to MMOs
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Just out of curiosity, did he have any suggestioins of what radical change he has in mind?
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because it’s one of those ’emergent phenomena’
[2012/08/07 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: they rather make a new one
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought we answered it in the first five minutes, Gwyn? 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wagner James Au strikes me as someone who wants the lindens cake and to eat it too
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: epiphenomena are incredibly hard to ‘explain’. They just +arise+
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Au is just a mercenary 😉
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But a friendly one!
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): How’d we get to epiphenomena all of a sudden
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that’s what “Second Life” is
[2012/08/07 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: As to todays question: Large population, huge choice of goods, universal creative tools, ability to participate in commerce both ways instead of just buying.
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, not really.
[2012/08/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie is asking for ‘what makes SL be what it is’
[2012/08/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I’d say, it’s an incredibly complex set of inter-relations
[2012/08/07 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: pretty much that Gwyn 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Although I hate to admit it, I’ve never been a visionary. If you ask me what I want, the answer is usually along the lines of “what we’ve got now, only more and better”.
[2012/08/07 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I suppose, if you were to take an augmentist view, you can twist the term–an epiphenomenon is a mere by product of something more fundamental–like smoke in a firepalce
[2012/08/07 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is a school of Philosophy known as epiphenomenalism too! heh
[2012/08/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not something we can say: “it’s the technology. It’s the users. It’s the economy. It’s the social relationships.” It’s all that and much more
[2012/08/07 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: I can imagine improvements, but my imagination fails when it comes to “radical change”.
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, it maintains t hat the mind is like the smoke and the brain is like the fireplace
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: radical change would be decentralization
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well, it already is pretty decentralized, Ivy
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Two freedoms, Gwyn. The freedom to be a content creator (provided it does not adversly affect anyone else) and the freedom to take on whatever identity you like (provided it does not infringe on someone else’s identity).
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: but then it wouldn’t be SL anymore, and it wouldn’t make money to LL
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yes, and the ‘fundamental’ aspects of SL are those ‘building blocks’ — tech. people. relations. market. money. culture. art. sense of belonging. weirdness
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extropia, and the freedom to be the kind of avatar you want and appear the way you want
[2012/08/07 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Oh yes, Identity is critical.
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: those are the fundmentals of SL.
[2012/08/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The fun bit is that even if you take all those ‘building blocks’ and implement them elsewhere, the result is not SL
[2012/08/07 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, ok, I can go along with taht
[2012/08/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes, identity too
[2012/08/07 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, that means that eit her a building block is missing or that SL is *not* an epiphenomenon
[2012/08/07 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: That is part of identity, Rhi. And again, it depends on not offending other people.
[2012/08/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I’d argue it’s not just two. But certainly those two are fundamental.
[2012/08/07 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok. So what else is it?
[2012/08/07 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OK, Extie, I’ll go along with that, for the moment. See what Gwyn has to say first. lol
[2012/08/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: now you’re getting philosophical on me; I have no idea if you’re roight or not!
[2012/08/07 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You and Zo on free will. What am I going to do with you two? lol
[2012/08/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d claim those two are not ‘the only things’, Extie, because there are people in SL that have no interest in exploring their identities and have no interest in content creation.
[2012/08/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Example: the ones who are here just to *date*
[2012/08/07 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Anyway, if you take all those ‘fundamentals,’ move them elsewhere, and the result is *not* SL, then either there is a fundamental missing, or SL is not just an expression of fundamentals. That’s what I’m saying
[2012/08/07 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, I mean, if I dressed up as a Klu klux klan and went around making racist comments and that offended people, I think there should be ways for people to tell me to change or boot me if I do not.
[2012/08/07 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And Gwyn’s right–the social interaction is at least as important
[2012/08/07 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: The math required with determinism doesn’t work. too many infinities end of story. FREe will rules!
[2012/08/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I got you, Rhi, but I’m not qualified to argue if you’re right or not …— I don’t have enough knowledge of philosophy for that 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, presumably you wouldn’t go to all that trouble just to replicate SL. You want to improve upon it in some way.
[2012/08/07 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can’t have a product without user made content without users, ergo you can’t make a second second life without second life users, it really is that simple
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: with user made content*
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Just accept that I’m right, Gwyn. You’ll feel better for it
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: My improvement would be to make iit run on a Tablet.
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that the idea of “improving” aspects of SL without understanding how SL ’emerged’ out of its basic components is like trying to “improve” humanity without understanding how the mind works 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn and that was for the transhumanist crowd 😉
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn and a point well put
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Prefarably an iPad, since my primary owns that particular Tablet. Well..iPad2.
[2012/08/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I accept that my ignorance is not enough to prove you’re wrong, Rhi, so the opposite must be true, e.g. you’re right. QED.
[2012/08/07 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, we’r ealmost there; I can run primitive SL graphics on my Android
[2012/08/07 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: I predict that at some point SL will change in a big way when they are forced to adopt a new far superior technology in the future. That will be interesting how they will do it and keep their installed userbase.
[2012/08/07 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): everyone looks the same, there’s limited mobility and it’s like a crude painting, but it’s *graphics*!
[2012/08/07 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma is waiting for a SL viewer on Haiku OS. :/
[2012/08/07 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: (Blows raspberry at Gwyn, on behalf of the H+ community)
[2012/08/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Art. That’s like saying that “humankind will adapt when we have a far superior way of producing free energy”. It will certainly be interesting. But we cannot predict anything *now* before we know what that super-technology in SL will be
[2012/08/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins @ Extie
[2012/08/07 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller wonders if SL won’t be such a horrible experience on her new 2k euro rig :p
[2012/08/07 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: It is a horrible experience on ANY rig;)
[2012/08/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn has a lovely SL experience with an outdated late 2006 iMac
[2012/08/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It just depends on one’s mindset and expectations 😀
[2012/08/07 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Or it could be lilke Unix/Linux which has always been a mess and apparently always will be.
[2012/08/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A mess!
[2012/08/07 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, we can make guesses–and they will be half right and half wrong. SF writers show that. Heinlein thought there’d be commercials for contraceptives by now; just didn’t realize they’d be for rubbers instead of the pill
[2012/08/07 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: you sound Buddist now Zo 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Damnation! Heresy! To the fire!
[2012/08/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Tell Hamlet, Gwyn. He will sob over his expensive and state of the art yet still laggy when running SL Alien gaming PC:)
[2012/08/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s guess then — what will be the next super-technology that SL WILL have to adapt to? 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sounded conservtive to me–the world is a mess, and always has been, always will be
[2012/08/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Extie — I might, I might. It’s been some years since I last pestered Hamlet 😀
[2012/08/07 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I find the best way to get good performance out of SL is to sit down and not move. Ever.
[2012/08/07 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m still wondering why SL performs better with Linux than with Mac OS X, on the same machine.
[2012/08/07 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: but seriously, SL will never become a mainstream thing since it’s a closed system, and no, open sim is not the solution to that problem
[2012/08/07 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: My sl experience is pretty good with only a state of the art rig from 2009. I still run sl at 40 to 60 fps….. What make it far better was increasing my internet connection speed to 20 mpbs…..
[2012/08/07 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Why can’t a closed system become a mainstream thing?
[2012/08/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The reply to Ivy is: the world is a mess because WE look at it and say “it’s a mess”. Change the mindset, and the world will change. Now *that’s* Buddhism in a nutshell 😉
[2012/08/07 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Does it need to be ‘mainstream’? What is wrong with niche?
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: SL is just a curiosity to perverts, artists (who are perverts by definition) and the likes
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: agreed on mainstream and OpenSim
[2012/08/07 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ivy, Facebook is a closed system. Amazon is a closed system ebay is a closed system
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, Art, when I increased my internet speed, theings were better; I’m looking forward to a day where I can get it on cable, and maye *always* have voice.
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn Likes perverts and artists
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes Extie’s questions.
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds agrees with art
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My answer is: “No, and nothing is wrong”
[2012/08/07 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Niche is preferable in bad economic times, it’s essential
[2012/08/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Photoshop is a niche. AutoCAD is a niche.
[2012/08/07 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: and I never used amazon before buying kindle, I never used ebay and the only reason why I’m on facebook is because I need it for work
[2012/08/07 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Although I’ve been in economies where you see stores that advertise “Pet grooming and guns.” They do ok
[2012/08/07 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: But they ARE successful
[2012/08/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Art. And so is SL.
[2012/08/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Poor Ivy. I’d dread to have to work on Facebook!
[2012/08/07 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: yes
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: So when you say a closed system can’t be “successful”, you mean it can’t be successful at cracking the lucrative Ivy Sunkiller market. 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’d go back to nude dancing before working on Facebook. You’re less naked.
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s what happen Gwyn when you get hired in a company that makes facebook games :p
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is this fallacy, created by the mass media before the dot-com crash, that EVERYTHING needs to become mainstream to survive.
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK as my time is almost up..if you could wish for one change to SL it would be….?
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Real 3D, like a holodeck
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw poor Ivy! A worse job would be knob polisher at the gates of Hell! I don’t envy you…
[2012/08/07 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: run on Ipad2!
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: An inventory window that isn’t a user interface disaster!
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that is not a ‘change’. Just crowdfund it, it’s not so easy
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *hard
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: (good one, Zo)
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: have you tried the Inventory Preview Viewer?
[2012/08/07 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Hey, what would people think about meeting in a different place on this sim for fun one time. I could put an instant tp from here to there to get everyone…..
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: The what what?
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t know what that would be, but I actually wish for a change that would *kill* SL
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I’m all for it.
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Sure, Art, why not?
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: LL’s new Inventory thingy
[2012/08/07 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: how so? 😀
[2012/08/07 16:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have a couple of places that would be fun
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Really, they have a new inventory thingie?
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: as long as SL is here, it hinders development of a proper metaverse
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They do, yes
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Lee (leezahsmiles): there needs to be an inventory organization tool….
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look on the Wiki page for the downloads
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lee:_ see my comment 🙂
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: and proper metaverse, like www, is protocol(s), not software
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Ivy
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: good point! BUT….
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Lee (leezahsmiles): everyone complains about how long it takes to organize inventory….
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Does it work on any viewer, like V3? Or is it a viewer by itself?
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Lee (leezahsmiles): oh okay Gwyn…
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Lee (leezahsmiles): ***winks***
[2012/08/07 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!
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