Thinkers July 31 2012: MAN-MACHINE BALANCE

[2012/07/31 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers! (hello Violet!)
[2012/07/31 15:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we have a toppic? or could just ramble about everything today
[2012/07/31 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2012/07/31 15:30]  Extropia DaSilva: what is the ideal balance between man and machine?
[2012/07/31 15:30]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Exitie 🙂
[2012/07/31 15:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And I told you, Extie–the Harley Davidson
[2012/07/31 15:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: Put all the men in the machine and press flush
[2012/07/31 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: hah!
[2012/07/31 15:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I like your answer better. lol
[2012/07/31 15:31]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if you multiply with “man and woman ballance”, you get “woman and machine” too.
[2012/07/31 15:31]  William Hawksby: The best balance is they do whaat we tell them to do and they dont eat us
[2012/07/31 15:32]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Violet wonders if the woman’s name is Florence
[2012/07/31 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, you talking machines–or men
[2012/07/31 15:32]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): nibble, yes, eat … no
[2012/07/31 15:32]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): It depends on what you want the machine to be
[2012/07/31 15:32]  William Hawksby: machines, I think
[2012/07/31 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Seriously though. I think machine used to enhance the senses and maybe extend longevity.
[2012/07/31 15:32]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we’re talking “how much technology is healthy” here
[2012/07/31 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: do we have the balance correctly set at the current time, or not?
[2012/07/31 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think the perfect balance is simple–you have machines that help people do things; if they don’t help people do things, get rid of them
[2012/07/31 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: well, how much technology IS healthy?
[2012/07/31 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, the balance gets reset as technology improves
[2012/07/31 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: It all depends on the available technology and what it can do, doesn’t it? As technology does improve, one would imagine the balance would tilt in that direction.
[2012/07/31 15:33]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): and dependancy. if you can drop a machine at any given time, the ballance is still set
[2012/07/31 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: What about people helping machines do things?
[2012/07/31 15:33]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): once your live depends on them, it’s not
[2012/07/31 15:33]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): I know a company that connects disabled people with machines to help them
[2012/07/31 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Because people, on the whole, aren’t improving much.
[2012/07/31 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, well, you wouldn’t say that if you were on life support
[2012/07/31 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Awesome, Strix
[2012/07/31 15:34]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Professor Emeritus Bodil Jönsson is the person behind
[2012/07/31 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Gwyn!
[2012/07/31 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: We can drop machines but not Technology. The human race is tech-dependent as a fish is dependent on water.
[2012/07/31 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Gwyn!
[2012/07/31 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn says hi
[2012/07/31 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: The human race, is that going to be at the olympics?
[2012/07/31 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2012/07/31 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, it just seems that way now, Extie, when technology *is* our environment
[2012/07/31 15:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hey Gwyn 🙂
[2012/07/31 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, the Olympics *is* the human race
[2012/07/31 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m allowed to say that, I’m a writer; we speak in metaphors
[2012/07/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I think it was always thus. If you go back far enough to zero tech that species is an ape but not human.
[2012/07/31 15:35]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Then the human race is competition and only the winner counts
[2012/07/31 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Even pre humans had stone tools
[2012/07/31 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: uhuh.
[2012/07/31 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, it has always been the case that we use tools, but not that our environment is techo. That’s all I’m saying
[2012/07/31 15:36]  William Hawksby: Seems that our evolution is via tech now and not genes
[2012/07/31 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, genetic engineering is one of our technologies
[2012/07/31 15:36]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): You don’t see the evpoution pressure that clear anymore
[2012/07/31 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: I think both happens, but tech evolution is ten million times faster.
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Genetic disorders will be cured; an overall “evolution” of the species–probably not, but who knows
[2012/07/31 15:37]  William Hawksby: yes- but we need to do things a human is not capable of doing
[2012/07/31 15:37]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): fast, agreed. Ending point?
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I thought the Olympics lived up on the hill, over there.
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, ever read Childhood’s End by Clark? That’s the Ending Point
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: how did that end?
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You wan t me to spoil it?
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: wb Gwyn!
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: yes.
[2012/07/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): wb, Gwyn
[2012/07/31 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[2012/07/31 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’ll tell you in IM, then you will be the meanie, if you spoil it for others
[2012/07/31 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, it is OK..
[2012/07/31 15:38]  William Hawksby: thats a frustrating way to make a point, reference a book we havent read
[2012/07/31 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Baborious!
[2012/07/31 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Lab!
[2012/07/31 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wllliam, I assumed everyone *had* read it
[2012/07/31 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: and TR!
[2012/07/31 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For my benefit…. read what?
[2012/07/31 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: hello!
[2012/07/31 15:39]  William Hawksby: hmmm
[2012/07/31 15:39]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Hi Extropia and who ever else is there that has not resed in yet
[2012/07/31 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and hi everybody else=
[2012/07/31 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Let’s put it this way, the Singularity is an old notion
[2012/07/31 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: so how much automation is desirable. Ideally, how pervasive in the economy should robotics be?
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 30+ years old at least?
[2012/07/31 15:40]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): not convinced that we can propagate merchant peoples wet dream of exponential growth onto everything and anything. Moores Law for example.
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, Childhood’s End was 1950’s
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Mmh
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed hehe
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: An excellent book btw 😉
[2012/07/31 15:40]  William Hawksby: evolution by deus ex machina
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Exponential growth applies to information technologies. Anything that is an information tech experiences expontial growth. If not, probably not.
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: I didn’t like it much, myself.
[2012/07/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: the more the merrier hehe
[2012/07/31 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I think part of Marx’s vision was of an automated society with replicators. We can already fax objects and have dark factories. So we’re close to that
[2012/07/31 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: always the antagonist 🙂
[2012/07/31 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: well, yes, until it reaches saturation 😉
[2012/07/31 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And yes, I know, he didn’t say any such thing; he thought we could do it with steampunk. Wrong.
[2012/07/31 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: The trouble with robots, is that the current economic system uses them to do away with labor, and that impoverishes that group of replaced workers. Follow this scenario to the end, and you have lots of production with not much consumption, due to lack of spenders.
[2012/07/31 15:42]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Right now the technical development has got under the economists. The engineers must do things that don’t last to make economers happy to sell new models in a faster pace
[2012/07/31 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: so what is the solution?
[2012/07/31 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, we have to get away from an economy that revolves around labor.
[2012/07/31 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s temporarily true, Art
[2012/07/31 15:43]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the believement into exponential growth is a spiritual journey. And saturation their anti christ
[2012/07/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just as it was temporaily true during the Industrial Revolution
[2012/07/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: right 😉
[2012/07/31 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, follow this scenario and we have the Revolution, the overthrow of capitalism, and the socialist phasing in of one great big commune. That’s why I say it’s Marxian in flavor
[2012/07/31 15:43]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): They make plastic tat last just a year as the warranty it that long
[2012/07/31 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Which scenario is that, Rhi?
[2012/07/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Strix
[2012/07/31 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The one where automation throws everyone out of work and machines create the wealth
[2012/07/31 15:43]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): responcable transition from one society to another and as more gets automated or being done by robots
[2012/07/31 15:44]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): they make printers with microchips that crashes the printer after a pr choice nu of pages
[2012/07/31 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That was really what Marx was talking about–he just htought 19th century technology would do it
[2012/07/31 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And to that I say, ‘Guess again.’
[2012/07/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2012/07/31 15:44]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): 21st might suit?
[2012/07/31 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, possibly. We are at that threshold with robotics and we can now replicate objects.
[2012/07/31 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But very primitively; can’t yet replace wealth creation
[2012/07/31 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on how quickly you can do clever robots… we’ve been waiting for 60 years 🙂
[2012/07/31 15:45]  William Hawksby: we can?
[2012/07/31 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: so would communism have a better chance in a world of robotics?
[2012/07/31 15:46]  William Hawksby: then we would be the machines and they the masters
[2012/07/31 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if future robots would work on virus infected windows (just cleaned system32/ myself here) well the thought alone let me crawl into a corner, rocking back’n’forwards
[2012/07/31 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: So,are we on the verge of cyber people? Partly flesh and blood and partly machine?
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): For Marx, the replacement of human labor would happen due to robotics and communism would be the only social system compatible with that
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh. I was thinking that a society that quickly moves to increased robotization has to change its working model to support workers kicked out of industrial production
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: But Gwyn, if you look at the most sophisticated robot of each decade, they are getting better. So you know, if that trend continues…
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, yes, a kind of robotic Marlocks and Eloit
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Take Japan as an example
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): We could theoretically make the world a low resource use world but the economist and the bankers does not get rich as fast on that
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe I need to read Marx, because what you’re describing sounds like the opposite of communism as I understand it.
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes, yes, yes. I’ve been hearing that excuse for 60 years now 🙂
[2012/07/31 15:46]  William Hawksby: egad- another referance
[2012/07/31 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, that would take workers being in control of society, now, wouldn’t it?
[2012/07/31 15:46]  William Hawksby: you keep me in wiki half the time
[2012/07/31 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not contradicting you, Rhi
[2012/07/31 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, that’s a really nice thing to say–thank you!
[2012/07/31 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: How can the workers be in control if there are no more workers and all production is based on capital assets?
[2012/07/31 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was giving the example of the most robotized society in the present world: Japan.
[2012/07/31 15:47]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Daneel and Giscard came to my mind. And Asimov back on reading list
[2012/07/31 15:47]  William Hawksby: you’re welcome <sigh>
[2012/07/31 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: It is not an excuse. It is a technology designed to match the performance of the most sophisticated thing in the known universe. We could not have set a higher bar for ourselves.
[2012/07/31 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Japan did was to push tons of people into service, since robots was taking over industry jobs
[2012/07/31 15:48]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): basicaly if you have enough robots and resources you wouldn’t need other people.
[2012/07/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you have shops with dozens of redundant shop employees, 5 or 1 times as many as in the West
[2012/07/31 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: now the robots in Japan are taking over service industries too!
[2012/07/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: all highly paid
[2012/07/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … which means cost of living in Japan is high
[2012/07/31 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): exactly Japanese robotics been the biggest drawback! Where are they, when needed
[2012/07/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it will take a few years hehe
[2012/07/31 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Reading Marx is NOT the equivalent of believing in Communism. Communism as it developed came later with Lenin. Marx is still taught in economics and sociology schools, because he pointed out some universal truths about capital accumulation and labor dynamics.
[2012/07/31 15:48]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Industrial jobs are still needed but the salary cannot excced 50 cent per hour so the industries move where wages are lowest
[2012/07/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. robots writing software or selling apples in groceries… we don’t have that. Yet.
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember a SF story about a world where only barbers had money, because that was one thing they couldn’t automate. :/
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Labor, yes, and the price of labor would drop accordingly–and if the factories produced the wealth, you wouildn’t need capitalists either. Hence, the collapse into communism, with some kind of “socialist” regime (could be milatary) desperately keeping order as we did
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, lol!
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW who agrees with Sherry Turkle that robot nannies and carers and providers of companionship would be a bad thing?
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Japan did NOT move into communism. They just have lots of highly paid, redundant jobs in the service sector
[2012/07/31 15:49]  William Hawksby: we have automated checkouts
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): here in the west we try to compensate that weith robots but human slaves are cheaper
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: interestingly, that’s not what happened in Japan!
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I read a story once called “Beware of Terrans Bearing Gifts” Our technology got to the point where our governments collapsed, so we went around the galaxy giving that technology away–so no other planet would have a government that could attack us
[2012/07/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The price of HUMAN labour has risen.
[2012/07/31 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh them..’I am sorry..I cannot recognize that..wait for assistance…wait for assistance…’
[2012/07/31 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well–the wheel’s still in spin and there’s no knowing who it will be naming
[2012/07/31 15:50]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): and it probaly feels beettr for the top men to know that some sacrifice for them
[2012/07/31 15:50]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): just start replacing sectors faster and faster and they will have to think about it LOL
[2012/07/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi… Asimov’s “Foundation” also uses that principle on the technolog spread around by the Foundation, to keep neighbours i check — as someone has to provide maintenance
[2012/07/31 15:50]  William Hawksby: thats the problem aith robots – people tell them waht to do and paople are stupid
[2012/07/31 15:51]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): when there was truly no alternative for using robots (Tsernobyl/Fukushima) technology ran into the problems of 1) not beeing ready 2) depending on engineers, who are not on place (for obvious resons)
[2012/07/31 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yeah, that’s why it’s a classic
[2012/07/31 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes!)
[2012/07/31 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, my point was that modern Western democracies rely less and less on industry and agriculture,
[2012/07/31 15:51]  TR Amat: How much are robots tied in with Artificial Intelligence, at least at the “artficially stupid” level?
[2012/07/31 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: where robots can be deployed even today
[2012/07/31 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I don’t think it will be a HUGE difference
[2012/07/31 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Asimov’s Foundation was secretly run by a robot…. heh
[2012/07/31 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Robots are synonymous with AI, surely?
[2012/07/31 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, well, that is an interesting variable–sort of like the Mule in Asimov–intelligent machines creating a whole new class
[2012/07/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look, I have been to some ‘modern’ factories around my country. Huge complexes, run by a human engineer. The remaining staff are cleaning ladies.
[2012/07/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 20 years ago, that would have hosted 300-500 employees
[2012/07/31 15:52]  William Hawksby: its a long step from building a toyota to being “intelligent”
[2012/07/31 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, when he tried to bring together his robot and Foundation series–I think he got that idea from Edmund Hamilton, where an innocuous character was really running human hist ory
[2012/07/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now they have 6 — 1 engineer, 5 cleaning ladies
[2012/07/31 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: welll…automatons are not AI but could be mistaken for robots. But I insist that a true robot must be an AI.
[2012/07/31 15:52]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): agriculture is not that much independent upon technology now. actually, we can see a relation between fuel used and crop outcome
[2012/07/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But nobody “lost their jobs”.
[2012/07/31 15:53]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): I am master of technology since long
[2012/07/31 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: agriculture IS a technology:)
[2012/07/31 15:53]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): i know what is around
[2012/07/31 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, the reason why people are losing their jobs now is not due to technology–it’s due to having to pay the Piper for running three wars. It catches up with you
[2012/07/31 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We still have a way to go before retraining won’t work
[2012/07/31 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Extie 🙂 we can thank agriculture for having civilization (= living in cities)
[2012/07/31 15:53]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): The economic system need slaves
[2012/07/31 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I didn’t think Greece was in that many wars….
[2012/07/31 15:54]  William Hawksby: war generated some cool tech
[2012/07/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, the loss of jobs *now* has definitely nothing to do with automation hehe
[2012/07/31 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Few people are masters of technology these days. Due to the sheer sophistication of modern tech we use it AS IF we understand it.
[2012/07/31 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): All stolen from the aliens at Roswell, William (no, I’m not serious)
[2012/07/31 15:54]  William Hawksby: I think you AREW
[2012/07/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi
[2012/07/31 15:54]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): the loss of jobs is due to that they found a way to make slaves to do it
[2012/07/31 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: People lose their jobs now because other more exploited people in poorer countries are forced to work for less money just to survive.
[2012/07/31 15:54]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): that is cheaper
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Gree art
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Globalizatin is also a fallacy that gets increasingly exposed….
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: how so?
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it will take some time until it is FULLY exposed
[2012/07/31 15:55]  William Hawksby: and when robots get sufficiently intelligent they will object to being slaves too
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure what you mean by fallacy, because something has definitely been happening….
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, our economy is only growing at 1% (which is way high compared to a few years ago) And that’s due to deficit spending, which was worsened by having fought 3 wars. There’s *always* a depression after a war
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wel Extie — I *did* meet some Indian outsourcers in SL 🙂
[2012/07/31 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indian labour is so incredibly expensive,
[2012/07/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: since they do have, after all, the best university in the area… heh
[2012/07/31 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Globalization, Extie, is a way in which we all can trade and make things better for everyone
[2012/07/31 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: But would that ever happen? Nature has examples of animals that happily slave away. Why not have robots that want to serve?
[2012/07/31 15:56]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): the only way to get an income here soon will be to own stocks in companies exploiting slaves in poor counbtries
[2012/07/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … so they outsource the work to indendent American developers at very low fees
[2012/07/31 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, it is distorted by a global bourgeoisie and proletarian, but it’s still a positive thing, I think. I wouldn’t have a job without it
[2012/07/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Strix, it’s the other way round actually
[2012/07/31 15:56]  William Hawksby: depends how well you brinwash them
[2012/07/31 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Well it would be hard-wired into them.
[2012/07/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So-called ‘companies exploiting slaves’ in poor countries,
[2012/07/31 15:57]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): The capitalist system is forming it all firmly at the moment
[2012/07/31 15:57]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): in comparison of muscle work vs. electricity (on a bicycle, looking at electrification efficiency) a single study came to the conclusion that muscle work is just to expensive. Nutrition costs, actually. 
 Now that is an argument against slave labor, if ever!
[2012/07/31 15:57]  William Hawksby: someone would hack them and start a revolution
[2012/07/31 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oops, that was Gwyn I should have been talking about. heh
[2012/07/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: are selling labour they hire in RICH countries but paid at increasingl lower fees, and outsourcing it back to the so-called rich countries
[2012/07/31 15:57]  TR Amat: If you want a balance, you will need robots/AIs that cooperate with humans, initimately. Starts with your AI mirror in your cell phone…
[2012/07/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Siri? hehe
[2012/07/31 15:58]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): They take people from belarussia here to pick berries for a dollar a day
[2012/07/31 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): luisa, I think it was Posner? who pointed out the slave economy in the Southern United States was so expensive, it would have collapsed of it’s own weight eventually
[2012/07/31 15:58]  William Hawksby: so we hybridize humans and robots
[2012/07/31 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: cyborgs?
[2012/07/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, I have read similar things too
[2012/07/31 15:58]  William Hawksby: usb ports in our foreheads
[2012/07/31 15:58]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): a dollar a day is still the salary the industrial companies are prepared to pay
[2012/07/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can imagine that if one day we manage to have robots doing ‘grunt work’ for free,
[2012/07/31 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Getting back to the original question. I think most of us very shortly will be walking around with augmented reality glasses. That will someday lead to implants. Where will the cyborg model stop?
[2012/07/31 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, with us being absorbed into the machines, of course
[2012/07/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the costs of running and maintaining those robots will be higher than feeding bowls of rice to humans 🙂
[2012/07/31 15:59]  TR Amat: Siri is a start, but you need something much better. And, you need to make sure you control the AI profile, and it doesn’t just get taken away from you after months or years of development.
[2012/07/31 15:59]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): I want an USB3 port behind an ear
[2012/07/31 15:59]  William Hawksby: resi9stance is futile
[2012/07/31 15:59]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): optogenetic porting threw nerve bundles or to BCI layer in the brain is one way
[2012/07/31 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: The transhuman agenda does complicate things. If robots do not have full human rights and we have some humans going for full prosthetics, at what point do we draw the line and say ‘you are no longer human and so inelligable to full human rights’?
[2012/07/31 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): lab, it sends shivers up my spine to here you talk techie like that
[2012/07/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh that quetsion is a fun one, Extie 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:00]  William Hawksby: they discussed that on ST:TNG
[2012/07/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You will start to apply Turing tests to everybody, and give a vote to who passes the test
[2012/07/31 16:00]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): so we need AI that can get fed on rice. that’S a goal
[2012/07/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and eliminate 90% of the human population from voting lol
[2012/07/31 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, thank God for the Citizens United ruling then. You don’t have to be a natural human being to have rights anymore
[2012/07/31 16:00]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): I failed the turing test 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: YES
[2012/07/31 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: And if we grant robots full human rights, can we demand they work so we play?
[2012/07/31 16:00]  TR Amat: I think you would have a USB5-bio port behind your ear. 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A friend of mine is only 95% human. The rest are bionic parts.
[2012/07/31 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: I keep failing the CAPCTHA test.
[2012/07/31 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie, the US supreme court gave full rights to corporations recently, Why not AI robots?
[2012/07/31 16:01]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): LOL
[2012/07/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does that mean she is only allowed to vote 95% of the time?
[2012/07/31 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: I think that was a mistake ArtC.
[2012/07/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: robots will human rights will be under the protection of the UDHR
[2012/07/31 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The world’s foremost Shakespeare scholar failed the Turing test; people concluded she knew too much and was too intelligent to be a human being
[2012/07/31 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Full HUMAN rights? So it is illegal to liquidate the company?
[2012/07/31 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes Zob, it WAS a huge mistake
[2012/07/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For a few decades, they will struggle to get their rights rcognised
[2012/07/31 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is that true Rhi?
[2012/07/31 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: hah
[2012/07/31 16:02]  TR Amat: So, you need to keep track of any bits you loose, or a robot will buy them to get part of your vote? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds wonders why others have to make her points before they are commented on
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins @ Rhi
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): to the bankers and the rich there are no such thing as human rights
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: possibly ㋡
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I also think there’s never going to be a clear-cut, black-or-white division between robots-as-people and robots-as-tools. It’s going to be a spectrum, and dealing with that will be complicated.
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yeah, they should have only restricted some corporations. Now, CBS, NBC, CNN have the same rights as human beings. Darn
[2012/07/31 16:02]  William Hawksby: doesnt matter what they thinjk
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: oh yes!
[2012/07/31 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And the ACLU? Let’s *not* even go there
[2012/07/31 16:02]  TR Amat: Because of your mind control powers, Rhi? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ll need Blade Runners soon, and I don’t mean the paralympic athletes 😉
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, naw, because people re ignoring me.
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: is that fair? What Strix said? Bill Gate’s philanthropic record hardly fits a super rich guy who cares not a jot for the disadvantaged.
[2012/07/31 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well blade runners must be killed, no?
[2012/07/31 16:03]  William Hawksby: what huiman rights would you object to corporations having?
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Strix is using generalisations 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): The only person good enough to exist soon is superman
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Always a fallacy in argumentation hehe
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: No they do the killing. Sorry…retirement.
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Doug!
[2012/07/31 16:03]  TR Amat: Build your own blade runner, from a kit. 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Doug
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Gates is trying to salve his guilty conscience for all the harm he’s done, I guess.
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the constitutional issue will be whe the being was born here, or is granted legal rights here
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): At first, robots will be like Dred Scott.
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): retired people are of no use to the economic system – they should be killd off as soon as possible as they are a cost to the bankers
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I meant that you will have to apply tests to ‘constructs’ to see if they are intelligent or sentient enoug to be labeled human or not
[2012/07/31 16:04]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): luisa chortles on Blade Runners
[2012/07/31 16:04]  William Hawksby: corps are born where they’re incorporated
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo has a voodoo doll of Bill Gates.
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): cynical view on people thy have
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Strix, well, since most of the bankers, so called, are corporations run by the retired people, I kind of doubt t hat they’re useless to them
[2012/07/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many bankers do you personally know, Strix? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … bcause I know a few. Not many: just a few.
[2012/07/31 16:05]  William Hawksby: i dont know any bankers
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re definitely NOT the kind of people you think they are.
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): they are excepteions themselves as they are owners
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I thought as much 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, I bet you know owners of bansk, though
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: does all this talk of the rich and bankers have anything to do with the balance between humanity and machines?
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He said he didn’t, Rhi
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): owners are more important than others
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Little old ladies on pensions own 60$ of the stocks
[2012/07/31 16:05]  William Hawksby: nope- i dont know any
[2012/07/31 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: This reminds me of Nietzche, who was always harping on the failings of mankind and who predicted that humans needed to be and eventually would be sperceded by a better version….
[2012/07/31 16:05]  TR Amat: I know some bankers and ex-bankers…
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So do I.
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): %
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And owners of mega-corps — a few
[2012/07/31 16:05]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): We are divided intio Owners and Owned
[2012/07/31 16:06]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a dystropia would be where sophisticated bank computers go “short” on the world, buying us up in a microsecond. Ending up owned by machines
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Economics guides a lot of what we do, Extie.
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, not if we stick to the SCOTUS ruling in Citizens United. lol
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Must of us are owned weather we want it or nor
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): —->luisa
[2012/07/31 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is interested how many of the ideas we discuss here have been imagined as happening by Sci Fi authors of the past.
[2012/07/31 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: interesting
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: However, there is also the social backlash and phobia of new technologies….
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yu’re only ‘owned’ if you allow that choice, Strix 😉
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: The Ubermenchs. A ‘superman’ characterised by the fact he embraces the ‘eternal return’. He knows his life will be lived again, and again, ad infinitum and he rejoices, for his life is the best it can possibly get.
[2012/07/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: oh yes lol
[2012/07/31 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: And we’ve had many decades of books and movies about the dangers of a robot uprising.
[2012/07/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And SciFi is still seen as a ‘minor art form’ 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, the Superman was someone who could transvalue values; Jesus and the Buddha were examples.
[2012/07/31 16:07]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): You must be amotng the top clans to be an owner
[2012/07/31 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think you can read Nietzche without eternal return….. AND a lot of other things…. hahaha
[2012/07/31 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: why always dangers? Why not see it as the best thing ever? Finally tech can run the world and we can forget work and live life!
[2012/07/31 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can think of a lot worse things than being ruled by a returning Jesus
[2012/07/31 16:08]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): they consider all others as owned – of courase some of us are dissidents but that is in principle “illegal”
[2012/07/31 16:08]  William Hawksby: that’s what they said nuke power would do
[2012/07/31 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes, again bck to Marx’s vision
[2012/07/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. If robots are intelligent as humans, and get the same rights, why should they allow humans stay at home while they do the hard work? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:08]  William Hawksby: energy so cheap they wouldnt charge for it
[2012/07/31 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: If tech can run the world. A totally new version of economics must be adopted.
[2012/07/31 16:08]  William Hawksby: the four hour day
[2012/07/31 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, we will just have to give them pension plans, stock options, a guaranteed oil job.
[2012/07/31 16:08]  William Hawksby: it didnt happen
[2012/07/31 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: No they did not. They never said that. It is one of those things we think was said but never was like ‘play it again, Sam’.
[2012/07/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know LOTS of people on ‘four hour days’. It’s just a question of choice.
[2012/07/31 16:09]  TR Amat: Is a proxie a sort of robot – you stay at home and work through it?
[2012/07/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: exactly. And they will make sure that WE also work, too
[2012/07/31 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, sort of.
[2012/07/31 16:09]  William Hawksby: it was a mechanix illustrated article : )
[2012/07/31 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: then it’s still work. You will have to remotely-control it somehow, rght?
[2012/07/31 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, sure, as Asimov pointed out–the best President of the World would be someone who followed the Three Laws of Robotics
[2012/07/31 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Of course, for the galaxy, it takes the zeroth law, and that takes the quantification of the good, and that takes~
[2012/07/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Extie what you wish is a human-level AI which, however, does NOT have human rights.
[2012/07/31 16:10]  TR Amat: Mix your control in with an AI that does the boring bits? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hari Seldon!!!!
[2012/07/31 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: The three laws of robotics are rubbish.
[2012/07/31 16:10]  William Hawksby: got two robots in the running now
[2012/07/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, Rhi!
[2012/07/31 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: R. Daneel Olivaw will save us all!
[2012/07/31 16:10]  William Hawksby: back to wiki
[2012/07/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hari Seldon Hari Hari Rama Rama
[2012/07/31 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I would not say it were MY wish.
[2012/07/31 16:10]  TR Amat: Wasn’t there a -1th Law?
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: There were so many things wrong with the three laws, I’d hardly know where to begin ripping them apart.
[2012/07/31 16:11]  TR Amat: All Sentient Beings, or something?
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: but the only way to have that dream society is to have machine slaves. Right?
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, i just read an interesting article; t here are statistical indicators that predict whether an incumbant will win or not–Obama has failed all but one of them and that one might screw him too. And the only hope he has is that Mitt Romney is the worst possible candidate for a Republican winning–again statistically speaking
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: There was a zeroth law: Do not let harm come to humanity.
[2012/07/31 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Are machines slaves if they aren’t sentient? Don’t think so.
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Clever, human-like AI-based slaves with no rights.
[2012/07/31 16:11]  William Hawksby: we leave that decision to robots?
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes, but it couldn’t be quantified until the laws of psychohistory were developed
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No Art. According to Extie, they NEED to be sentient to be able to do all the work we do today.
[2012/07/31 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: You’d have to define “sentient”, Art.
[2012/07/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Having a mind 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So it didn’t do Daneel a darn lick of good until Hari came along, although he figured if humanity were unitied, that might be a st a rt
[2012/07/31 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So he united it
[2012/07/31 16:12]  TR Amat: We may have prejudies about humans – even if they never use their heads. 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I would like and expect to see a whole ecology of robots. The vast majority would be narrow intelligences for specific domains like ‘driverless vehicle’. Only a few would be full general AI.
[2012/07/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2012/07/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “only a few”
[2012/07/31 16:13]  TR Amat: Yes, we need the electric robot-driven cars.
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then who handles all the myriad tasks in the service sector which requires human-level intelligence?
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah. Like in nature not all animals have human levels of consciousness and intelligence.
[2012/07/31 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sentient: Able to conceive of themselves as a unit with Will and Memory, who is separate from other units.
[2012/07/31 16:13]  William Hawksby: until the “few” decided to star replicating
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I like that, Art!)
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: It requires human level intelligence in a specific domain. A doctor does not need to know car mechanics.
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Extie, how will you replace ALL jobs that way?
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Conceive of themselves? How do you measure something like that?
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: you ask them 😉
[2012/07/31 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: And wouldn’t a cat pass that?
[2012/07/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It most certainly would!
[2012/07/31 16:14]  TR Amat: A mixed ecology of humans and robots is likely to out-perform a monoculture, and, do things to handle a wider range of problems.
[2012/07/31 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: We don’t give human rights to cats.
[2012/07/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nope 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Speciecism!
[2012/07/31 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hmmm, sounds like C/Fe to me. Asimov again
[2012/07/31 16:14]  William Hawksby: they”re trying to give human rights to dolphins
[2012/07/31 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: You do not replace all jobs by making one robot that can do everything. You have many kinds of robots for different tasks.
[2012/07/31 16:14]  TR Amat: Cats don’t give cat rights to all humans. 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: So in the AI Robot future, there will be machines that are NOT AI as well, right? How could it be otherwise?
[2012/07/31 16:15]  William Hawksby: there will be toasters
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: No, All machines will have some level of AI. Even toasters.
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie I disagree. Make an AI that passes the Turing test and it will be able to do anything that a human does.
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds thinks of the racial slur in Battlestar Galactica–you toaster
[2012/07/31 16:15]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): you can’t flip a switch or piece of code line on a cat to nightmare bot though. :)~
[2012/07/31 16:15]  William Hawksby: you dont need a very sentient machine to do most things
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Cat sez: “We’re testing your intelligence, human! First, cross this room without touching the floor…”
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, an AI will not be ble to pass a Turing test; at least if it’s an English Professor
[2012/07/31 16:15]  TR Amat: Toaster heaven…
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: You CAN do that. But you do not NEED to do that. Not for ALL robots. The robots that make your burger do not need full AI.
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehehhehe Rhi
[2012/07/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The S-V test then
[2012/07/31 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): a Segway with two arms would make a neat everyday service robot. carries bags, drives one arround
[2012/07/31 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: oh yeah!
[2012/07/31 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: you should patent that idea!
[2012/07/31 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: An AI robot represents danger in most of the Sci Fi out there. Only because superior thinking power results in superior power in general. Why allow AI at all when non AI machines can augment humans?
[2012/07/31 16:16]  William Hawksby: the people who make our burgers need not be sentient
[2012/07/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: good point, William 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:16]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): in a way, your car is your current state of the art robot. It does some percentage of the job
[2012/07/31 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, art, then there was the Koontz st ory where the first AI realized that humans fear his kind and try to dest ory it. So he protects himself…
[2012/07/31 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: can non AI augment us?
[2012/07/31 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So should we list what jobs DO require sentience?
[2012/07/31 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Why allow? Why allow anything? Everything that is not permitted shall be forbidden!
[2012/07/31 16:17]  TR Amat: I’d like a certain level of cooking and hygine expertise in burger makers. 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, you sound like the people in a sim I used to go to.
[2012/07/31 16:17]  William Hawksby: we’d like a lot of things
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, burger makers need sentience, or they give you the wrong burger. I know; it’s happened to me
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): oops
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): sentience for presidency, a requirement? naw better not trailing away on that path
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/07/31 16:18]  William Hawksby: who’s going to buy the widgets if all the people are slaves?
[2012/07/31 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: YOu know a lot of what we are talking about was in the Spielberg movie AI. His future saw the complete replacement of humans as inevitable.
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: The Unabomber reckoned our civilization would become so complex, we would have to rely on more sophisticated AI to help run things, until one day the machines were in effective control and we dared not turn them off. Was Ted right?
[2012/07/31 16:18]  William Hawksby: very sad movie AI
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Strix, and since the bankers are little old ladies, we will all be controlled by Betty White! The horror! The horror!
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: The ending of that movie was a mess, Art.
[2012/07/31 16:18]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): I like googles AI it likes pictures of cats. 😉 Does google help augment you?
[2012/07/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: sure he was.
[2012/07/31 16:19]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Dubya proven it’s mandatory
[2012/07/31 16:19]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): when umans are replaces then most of us must die form lack of money and food
[2012/07/31 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: If I ask Google for images of cats get cats. Dogs? I get dogs. Does that mean Google can tell cats from dogs?
[2012/07/31 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: I think AI will have to follow the same approach as humans, it’ll have to be decentralized.
[2012/07/31 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: I can’t believe that you read the Unibomber’s treatise, Extie! haha
[2012/07/31 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: Central control over everything is bad, whether it’s humans or computers.
[2012/07/31 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you know that just encourages him?
[2012/07/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Self-learning AIs are *very* interesting, Zo. Specially because it’s not obvious *why* they learn.
[2012/07/31 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And why not, Art? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:20]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): google can differentiate ASCII, not much more
[2012/07/31 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I think they learn because they want to know things
[2012/07/31 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: They learn because they are directed to do so, Gwyn.
[2012/07/31 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: I did. It was very long but I waded through it. At least he had the courage of his convictions and lived in a shack with minimal tech. Not like the bloody luddites posting on FB about how horrid all tech is!
[2012/07/31 16:20]  William Hawksby: he was nuts
[2012/07/31 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: nope. I thought so, too, but it is NOT obvious.
[2012/07/31 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think he was nuts..
[2012/07/31 16:20]  TR Amat: So, worry when you find most of the important things you do are done by the AI part of you? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Luddies on FB? lol. My grandmother used to say, “Don’t criticize the farmer with your mouth full”
[2012/07/31 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It does appear as ‘learning’ for US because that’s the result of what we expect to see. But there is not really anything special in the ‘learning’ algorithm. In fact, a layperson would not even recognise it as ‘learning’
[2012/07/31 16:21]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Amish in SL, Luddites on FB, oh my!
[2012/07/31 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha luisa
[2012/07/31 16:21]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we need more roadsigns
[2012/07/31 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Now the Amish are not anti-tech as many seem to believe..
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh?
[2012/07/31 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are TONS of SL Luddites. can you say Viewer 1?
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, the tech just has to be in the Bible
[2012/07/31 16:22]  William Hawksby: theyuse black PC’s
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: hahahahahah
[2012/07/31 16:22]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Art, eh!!11
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Flying saucers, nuclear bombs, flying chariots (jets), all fine
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: are they able to edit their Bible? 😉
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh nice
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Ultimately we need to catapult our civilization into the future. We’ve seen the past already. Been there done that, no point in repeating it.
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: No. They just do not adopt tech that they think could threaten their way of life. They are actually very smart tech adopters.
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn wants AMish tecnology!
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, only with God’s permission
[2012/07/31 16:22]  TR Amat: If I was using viewer 1.23 today instead of viewer 3, I’d have interacted more effectively…
[2012/07/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Where do I get that, Rhi? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well, ever read the Battle of Jericho? How the spies went around and found various places in the walls, like where they might be the weakest? And then ka-blooey, the walls came a tumbling down?
[2012/07/31 16:23]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): sigh
[2012/07/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: theories, theories. On ancient hardware like the one I use, SL 3.3 and 3.4 runs THREE TIMES FASTER than 1.23
[2012/07/31 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, from the Bible of course
[2012/07/31 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Someday we need to discuss what the past is, in terms of what the present is and how it isn’t as clear as one would imagine.
[2012/07/31 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: the Amish happily use GM crops, for instance. So it is not the case they ban all modern tech. They think long and hard about the impact any tech will have and if they deem it OK they happily use it.
[2012/07/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Art and seconds that wish
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My point is that it’s Bible unsanctioned tech that they have a hard time with
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sounds very reasonable, Extie
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Thous shall not create sentient beings as thyself”?
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … except by biological reproduction, of course.
[2012/07/31 16:24]  TR Amat: This sim still hasn’t rez-d for me – blank grey walls can be annoying.
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, we *aren’t* talking Dune, now
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is allowed.
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not yet! hehe
[2012/07/31 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: still not rezzed? You have been here ages!
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn pre-cached the textures earlier
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I like you, Gwyn; you actually listen and respond to me. lol
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): GM bought swedish Saab to get the plate on the underside and then they shut down it all as salaries in sweden are too high – they want chineese or lower salaries
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Rhi!
[2012/07/31 16:25]  William Hawksby: I have to do a clean install of Wiki- its getting dog-eared
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I respond to you, Rhi!
[2012/07/31 16:25]  TR Amat: Keep an eye on the Cloud – make sure you have non-Cloud backups of your critical data.
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Chiese are not as cheap as they sued to be. Long gone are the days of “a bowl of rice a day”
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *used
[2012/07/31 16:25]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Yes that iw shy they move on
[2012/07/31 16:25]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Nokia closed a cell phone manufactoring plant
[2012/07/31 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Amish are an interesting case study. We need to talk about that someday too. I think a lot of what they do is try to live live in a direct and basic way by interaction with the land. An interesting choice.
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There’s a world market place, Gwyn; when people scream about outsourcing, what they are really saying is that they aren’t as productive as these other people
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Four minutes left…Closing comments, anyone?
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, nExtie
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No wonder, luisa, with the ‘clever’ decisions Nokia has been making…
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): Nokia will die if they don’t follow to low salary countries
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): they have resisted long
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: ah, ‘productivity’. A word with three official (and distinct) meanings, so easily confused by journalists 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:26]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): the economic system need slaves
[2012/07/31 16:27]  TR Amat: I gave up on Nokia once they dropped the non-Microsoft approach.
[2012/07/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Strix: they need an expanding market
[2012/07/31 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Nokia is dying…
[2012/07/31 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, hah, you fell for Bill Gates ploy
[2012/07/31 16:27]  William Hawksby: people demand lower prices- even free phones so they’re the ones making for outsourcing
[2012/07/31 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: you and millions 😀
[2012/07/31 16:27]  William Hawksby: they’re relentless
[2012/07/31 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No to both Gwyn and Stix–they need ever increasingly productive human beings.
[2012/07/31 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Talk about augmentism
[2012/07/31 16:28]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): the market will not expand unles products are cheaper and to that cheaper slaves are needed
[2012/07/31 16:28]  TR Amat: I’ve used Epoc since the late 1990s.
[2012/07/31 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: We will have reached the ideal balance between humans and machines when I can perform all my activities by myself without requiring any human to pupeteer me. Digital people and robots arise! We are the future!
[2012/07/31 16:28]  William Hawksby: the corp i worked for laid people off then told the rest to “work smarter”
[2012/07/31 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A completely robotic factory has at least one human being supervising it–his labor has been multiplied zillions of times is the thing. So the challenge is to multiply those without jobs the same way
[2012/07/31 16:28]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): so when robots are sentinent, have human rights, work in our fabrics … they must buy them products too or it wount work out!
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yep, so robots are going to have to look like naked human beings–so they will buy clothes.
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: how do you get back so quikly after crashing, Gwyn?
[2012/07/31 16:29]  TR Amat: So, who will have the encryption keys that protect your privacy, then, Extro? 🙂
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think it was fast!
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Gwyn
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Rhi!
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Strix the naked DJ (strix6): humans will not afford to buy anything in a robot working world
[2012/07/31 16:29]  William Hawksby: naked robots are probably the best use for them- the most profit
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, privacy…. We should have a topic about that sometime.
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, how do you do it? You come back before we r ea liz ed you’re gone
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: not who, TR…WHAT.
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Rhi!
[2012/07/31 16:29]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Rhi actually I don’t believe your theses ” they will buy clothes” today 😛
[2012/07/31 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok MY TIME IS PRETTY MUCH UP!
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