Khannea Suntzu at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Damn its quiet these days
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: That won’t do
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: today the question up for debate is…
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: I’ll get Rachel Haywire in here and have her voicemoan
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Cloud party: Better than Second Life?
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Buh?
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, nice lol
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: What is Cloud Party
[2012/07/17 15:31]  Gilles Kuhn: Hoooooowls!!
[2012/07/17 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: so first of all…anyone here even tried it?
[2012/07/17 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should be jump over and continue it over there?
[2012/07/17 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: I never heard of it.
[2012/07/17 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *we
[2012/07/17 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now you have, Zo!
[2012/07/17 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: *Me ruffles Giles*
[2012/07/17 15:33]  Enapa Pennell: Hello
[2012/07/17 15:33]  Enapa Pennell: thank you, Extropia
[2012/07/17 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, in what way should be discuss if Cloud Party is “Better”?
[2012/07/17 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Enapa. We have only just started:)
[2012/07/17 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, that’s the Facebook thing?
[2012/07/17 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Facebook? No…
[2012/07/17 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a web-based virtual world
[2012/07/17 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well…better as in more stable, perhaps?
[2012/07/17 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: More stable! ok.
[2012/07/17 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good metric.
[2012/07/17 15:34]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): web based, suitable for tablets, or even phones … that’s all that stuff where venture capital might went crazy, but avatars stay rather calm
[2012/07/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say, for a just-opened VW which has perhaps less than a hundred simultaneous users, it seems more stable than SL, yes 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … but so does my home.brewn OpenSim grid
[2012/07/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles*
[2012/07/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tablets? Phones? Nah. None support WebGL
[2012/07/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least, not without some serious hacking.
[2012/07/17 15:35]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we don’t need a new world, we need different access entries for a single valid one
[2012/07/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They might, though, “in the near future”
[2012/07/17 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hear hear Luisa
[2012/07/17 15:35]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): noboddy would suggest a second internet
[2012/07/17 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: There is an internet2.
[2012/07/17 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is indeed! Quite old too!
[2012/07/17 15:36]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): like open grids, everybody can have a company net, sure
[2012/07/17 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: If we do not have a single valid online world that means we *do* need a new one.
[2012/07/17 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In favour of Cloud Party, I can say that it seems to be easier to use. EXCEPT if you wish to use anything in your inventory or want to build something
[2012/07/17 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: I am not sure browsers will do much.
[2012/07/17 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Maybe they will
[2012/07/17 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: So, aside from small fringe companies such as LL struggling up the stream like a salmon, what other niches might spawn a competing virtual world memecology
[2012/07/17 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: I have some expectations of Google earth
[2012/07/17 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Thing with SL is, I cannot come here on a whim because it takes so long to load. It is not like checking websites that takes no time if I use iPad. So is cloud party as accessible as the Web?
[2012/07/17 15:38]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): just googled Cloud Party and it’s not mentioned on Wikipedia. You are sure some such world does exist?
[2012/07/17 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes it exists.
[2012/07/17 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: I just logged into it, I’m poking around now. Figuring out how to move.
[2012/07/17 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[2012/07/17 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: It must do. Hamlet blogged about it.
[2012/07/17 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: use the keyboard keys OR double-click on the ground, just like SL
[2012/07/17 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: The keyboard controls are rather different, but I’m figuring them out.
[2012/07/17 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: gah sorry —
[2012/07/17 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: What do you mean, double click the ground like in SL?
[2012/07/17 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dang. I cannot be on both Cloud Party and SL at the same time lol
[2012/07/17 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: to move to a point… you can just double-click on it
[2012/07/17 15:40]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): guess a title like “Cloud Party vs Second Life” makes good reading … I do arrive at this chat *unprepared*
[2012/07/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/07/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: Cloud Party DOES take some time to load too!
[2012/07/17 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve never heard of such a thing, when did they introduce that?
[2012/07/17 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: So if there were two people who were novices at any online world, and one tried CP first and the other SL, who would master the basics first?
[2012/07/17 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: a month ago?
[2012/07/17 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): we need two identical peoples to test that, Extie
[2012/07/17 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): whom do we clone?
[2012/07/17 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, it’s hard to believe anyone could make a virtual world more user-hostile than SL… So I’m going to assume Cloud Thingy wins on that score. 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was a “secret development” for some 9 months. The founders wanted to prove that one could do a games engine on top of WebGL. Then they showed a demo they made to Cory Ondrejika, who told them that there is NO market for Yet Another WebGL Game Engine, but that their virtual world created as a demo was actually cute!
[2012/07/17 15:42]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Zob, ack … prim rotations, LSL, doubleack
[2012/07/17 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo where did you rez when you tried CP just now?
[2012/07/17 15:42]  Enapa Pennell: If LL had figured out how to host and deliver content the way Netflix has done, it wouldn’t be a fringe company.
[2012/07/17 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: not sure, looks like a sandbox or something
[2012/07/17 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: what does your avatar look like?
[2012/07/17 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: newbies on CP for sure. There are few basics to master. No groups, no chats, no events, no places to visit unless you know how to find them… the “basics” is just move around, click on a thingy to display the handful of items you have to wear on your avatar, and that’s all tehre is to CP
[2012/07/17 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: Looks a bit like a There avatar, I think.
[2012/07/17 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a bit better than that, Zo
[2012/07/17 15:43]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): how about inworld creating?
[2012/07/17 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and you CAN upload your own avatar
[2012/07/17 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: all meshes
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s way harder to place them than on SL, though
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I thought the There avs were cute, though.
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the “building tools” are rather primitive
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: So what comes first: SL as easy to use as CP or CP with the amount of user content SL has aquired as of today?
[2012/07/17 15:44]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): it’S not the 1st virtual world, you know. Basically it depends upon accessability of content creation tools
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: hello TR
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL is as easy to use as CP if you use it with the Basic View mode 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I doubt whether SL will ever get easy to use. I haven’t seen much progress in the time I’ve been here.
[2012/07/17 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, nobody ever does *that*
[2012/07/17 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Basic View? Is that something else new that I’ve missed? 😛
[2012/07/17 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a theory that the more complex a thing is, the more complex it’s UI has been.
[2012/07/17 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: introduced in early 2011 IMHO
[2012/07/17 15:45]  TR Amat: Hi
[2012/07/17 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s fun, since you have to install the SL viewer on a completely clean computer,
[2012/07/17 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and once you turn Basic Mode off,
[2012/07/17 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there once was that thingy of “avatars on every webpage” where you browsed via a proxy, and other page visitors could be seen walking around the browsers window bottom. Actually a privacy nightmare … but in a way, cute
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s almost impossible to go back ! hehe
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, but SL’s interface has long been just plain obtuse and combative — with the inventory window as the prime example, but hardly the only one.
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: luisa: I loved that! it was fuuuuuun
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: I never new that, Luisa.
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: when was this?
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There were many competing products actually!
[2012/07/17 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): “weblins”
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye! Weblins!
[2012/07/17 15:46]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): dead?
[2012/07/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: new one on me.
[2012/07/17 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh it was so much fun
[2012/07/17 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait! They’re still around!
[2012/07/17 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, still Windows only.
[2012/07/17 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: “In order to change your Outfit, you must first use your Cell Phone.”
[2012/07/17 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the inventory window … actually, we need a “thumbnail view” (3rd party browsers might be able to implement that) where 1st texture can be seen as a tile
[2012/07/17 15:48]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Zob, that stinks!
[2012/07/17 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, to be honest, the good thing about Cloud Party is that they should give LL some ideas.
[2012/07/17 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: That boggled me for a moment, until I figured out they meant a button on the screen labeled Cell Phone…. not an actual cell phone. 😀
[2012/07/17 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, actually it’s a clever idea
[2012/07/17 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh:)
[2012/07/17 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are few options, but they show up as icons on a cell phone HUD
[2012/07/17 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is actually not so stupid — a customer of mine in 2007 used exactly the same idea for a gadget they were introducing in SL
[2012/07/17 15:49]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): ^^ imagine Outfits/ folder viewable as a row of texture/thumbnail tiles. That helps on dressing
[2012/07/17 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, it looks like an iPhone, so everyone will be familiar with it. Except me, since I’ve never had any phone like that.
[2012/07/17 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: It would be good if that screen up here could broadcast Zo’s first steps in CP and she had a screen in CP showing us lot watching her:)
[2012/07/17 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it was figured out to be a good diea, since people are familiar with the way a cell phone UI looks like
[2012/07/17 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/07/17 15:49]  TR Amat: The trick with complex systems is sensible, intuitive defaults But, one persons ‘intuitive’ is anothers totally obscure. 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2012/07/17 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We *can* enter CP from within SL
[2012/07/17 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we wouldn’t be seeing the same thing, obviously
[2012/07/17 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: I read an article recently ranting against the use of UIs that mimic real-world objects…
[2012/07/17 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: why not?
[2012/07/17 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the in-world viewer panel is just like a webbrowser…
[2012/07/17 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW this is hardly related but did you see that Wagner nearly got kicked from FB because it decided ‘Au’ had to be a fake name?
[2012/07/17 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we both use Google on our “regular” webbrowser, Extie, we’re not going to see the same thing 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: This is surreal, though… UI that mimics the UI of a completely different device.
[2012/07/17 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No! I didn’t hear that, Extie!
[2012/07/17 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: It is true!
[2012/07/17 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: nah… from a user’s perspective it’s actually logical
[2012/07/17 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: After all, SL UI “mimics” (very poorly) a desktop UI
[2012/07/17 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Menus, windows
[2012/07/17 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is not necessarily the “best” way to do it
[2012/07/17 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: what is the best way?
[2012/07/17 15:52]  Enapa Pennell: Programmers have been using metaphors for a few decades now.
[2012/07/17 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or, even if it’s the “Best”, well, it’s not the “easiest”
[2012/07/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: you’re the expert in FPS 🙂 They have totally different interfaces, right?
[2012/07/17 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not an expert. I play them on rare occasions.
[2012/07/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The last FPS I played was Half Life 2 (I know, I know…) and I figured out the interface in less than half an hour…
[2012/07/17 15:53]  Enapa Pennell: I remember it was hard for my parents to get used to having to hit “dial” on their cell phone after they entered the number.
[2012/07/17 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh no that is still one of the very best..
[2012/07/17 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm! I thought you did play far more than that hehe
[2012/07/17 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: SL doesn’t “mimic” a desktop UI. It’s an application running on a computer. It uses a normal (sort of) computer application interface.
[2012/07/17 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually I wish it was normal, but it tries.
[2012/07/17 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Enapa — it was weird even for *me* and my parents also had some problem with that too
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: well I guess that strictly speaking you’re right… my point was just that SL’s UI is “similar” to any other application that runs on the desktop, using the same metaphors etc. but that just made the UI impossibly cluttery and confusing
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: so you can make stuff in cloud party?
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, then again, SL is a very *complex* application
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think that’s the reason why the UI is bad.
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Extie! You can upload meshes 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One of the many reasons at least, Zo 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Enapa Pennell: projecting 3D into 2D has always been a hard task.
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Enapa —
[2012/07/17 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: — but other apps (e.g. games) solved that.
[2012/07/17 15:56]  Enapa Pennell: At least SL is ready for immersion.. when the presentation systems are ready.
[2012/07/17 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve got to admit, it’s interesting. And any kind of competition can only be good.
[2012/07/17 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that CP has some potential, but they need to be as aggressive in their marketing as IMVU was.
[2012/07/17 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: If you mean full immersion VR, no way. THere has to be ZERO lag or else you will get motion sickness. You could not use VR goggles with SL the lag would make you ill.
[2012/07/17 15:57]  TR Amat: My main objection to Cloud Party it is follows Google+ and Facebook in assuming you need one identity for the net, and that is your RW name.
[2012/07/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … unless you have the kind of personal supercomputer that Scarp has — no lag at all for him!
[2012/07/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: this is my main objection too.
[2012/07/17 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: He lies.
[2012/07/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/07/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, CP also has lag, if you have a slow computer than mine.
[2012/07/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interestingly enough, though….
[2012/07/17 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … since CP was launched, a month ago…
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … my own experience with SL has gotten better…
[2012/07/17 15:58]  TR Amat: They could trash my FB “TR Amat” id for daring to poke my nose in CP.
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: well he does. YOu could use Bluegene/L and the LHC’s Internet connection (can download an HD movie in 2 seconds) and SL would still lag.
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have THREE times as much FPS
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Enapa Pennell: we “will” have super computers soon.
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shadows work again!
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Enapa Pennell: Its not so much the computers now.. they’re fast.
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Enapa Pennell: Its the ins and outs
[2012/07/17 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: well, in an avatar-intensive situation, I guess you’re right
[2012/07/17 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Apparently my name in Cloud Party is User#639110. :/
[2012/07/17 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: did you login anonymously?
[2012/07/17 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, because, like most people, you didn’t use Facebook to log in 🙂
[2012/07/17 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I assume if I login with my Facebook account (still not blocked from FB for being a fake person, YAY!) I would be ‘Extropia DaSilva’?
[2012/07/17 15:59]  TR Amat: I liked the Intel suggetion that the could support SL equivalent sims with 1000 avatars…
[2012/07/17 16:00]  TR Amat: I logged in both anonymously and via FB to test the full interface.
[2012/07/17 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: *Extie sniffles and then cheers up to see Gwyn return*
[2012/07/17 16:00]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): luisa rubs bum from falling flat on a crash
[2012/07/17 16:01]  Enapa Pennell: welcome back Luisa
[2012/07/17 16:01]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): I am willing to settle over into a stable world!
[2012/07/17 16:01]  Enapa Pennell: Its hard, I think, in both worlds.
[2012/07/17 16:01]  TR Amat: Being “TR Amat” gave me a house, and build capability.
[2012/07/17 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: are we friends on FB TR?
[2012/07/17 16:01]  Enapa Pennell: leaving a current context.. trying to foget everything in the prvious.
[2012/07/17 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe I shouldn’t have been praising SL so much, then I crash….
[2012/07/17 16:02]  TR Amat: The hose let me try the build tool to furnish it.
[2012/07/17 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): tiny snipped: “Many 3DVW veterans are associated with this project, including former Linden Lab and Cryptic employees, who obviously know what they are doing.
 But that is not the only rule Cloud Party breaks, and yet it seems to succeed where many failed”
[2012/07/17 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Apparently you have to login with FB to save anything.
[2012/07/17 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ironically, although “moving around” in CP is easier than SL (even though it’s impossible to search for anything), I found that the building interface of CP is impossibly obscure.
[2012/07/17 16:02]  TR Amat: house*
[2012/07/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes.
[2012/07/17 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the anonymous login is another way to lure people into signing up for FB.
[2012/07/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Obviously 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, that’s not going to happen here. 😛
[2012/07/17 16:03]  TR Amat: I thought we were, Extri.
[2012/07/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a marketing stunt actually
[2012/07/17 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: I only signed up because my wife made me!
[2012/07/17 16:03]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): FB still features nousebleeds from going stock value
[2012/07/17 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie!
[2012/07/17 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: she is very persuasive.
[2012/07/17 16:04]  TR Amat: The CP build interface is no wose tha SL, I found.
[2012/07/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really, TR?!
[2012/07/17 16:04]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2012/07/17 16:04]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): actually I am glad that there is movement inside the VR scene again
[2012/07/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It took me 15 minutes just to place a mesh on the exact spot I wanted.
[2012/07/17 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. It has never stopped, Luisa
[2012/07/17 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just take a look at the statistics from KZero —
[2012/07/17 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they track down teh hundreds of VWs that pop up every year
[2012/07/17 16:05]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): There and Blue Mars been a bummer
[2012/07/17 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: It seemed to me like things were stagnant for a very long time.
[2012/07/17 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: IMVU is a huge commercial success.
[2012/07/17 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah Zo
[2012/07/17 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They just pop up, burn all venture capital, and dissapear
[2012/07/17 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I have a conspiracy theory. FB waits for a certain amount of time before telling anyone ‘we think you are fake, prove your ID or you are out’. If they did that early on you would go ‘oh well’ since you have few ties. But after a while you have all your groups and all your friends and you are like ‘noooo let me stay I will tell you anything!!!’.
[2012/07/17 16:05]  TR Amat: Neither are very intuitive. Or, maybe I didn’t turn my intuition on. 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:05]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): reaching browsers has been over due
[2012/07/17 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Browsers suck as a platform for running programs.
[2012/07/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: the “conspiracy theory” is right, but it’s misreading the facts. The more time you’re on FB, the more ‘friends’ you gather, and, at some point, one of them will be angry at you and report you.
[2012/07/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: IMVU, IMVU, IMVU
[2012/07/17 16:06]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): sucking, maybe, but the outreach! masses
[2012/07/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t forget the IMVU 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:06]  luisa: imvu
[2012/07/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 50 million registered users, hundreds of thousands of content creators
[2012/07/17 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Luisa
[2012/07/17 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma tries to remember what a IMVU is….
[2012/07/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
[2012/07/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They now even have a Mac version, Zo!
[2012/07/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (“now”: since 2010 I think)
[2012/07/17 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol at the letters
[2012/07/17 16:07]  luisa: loves
[2012/07/17 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: The website describes it as a “3D Chat and Dress-Up community”.
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Ah TR we are friends in FB. There you are next to Chris Altman and Charles Anderson. I have no idea who they are.
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, that’s the kind of thing you cannot do easily anywhere else BUT in SL 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: that’s pretty much what it is, Zo 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a virtual world with user-generated content,
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: That sounds like a parody of SL.
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the difference to SL is that it’s not visually contiguous.
[2012/07/17 16:08]  luisa: test!
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But neither is Cloud Party.
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: sounds exactly like Sl to me.
[2012/07/17 16:08]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): darn … jamming
[2012/07/17 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh
[2012/07/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s also something you only get in SL, Luisa!
[2012/07/17 16:09]  TR Amat: Dress up the dollies! That is what a friend of mine calls SL. 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That MIGHT be one reason why CP might catch less attention than it deserves.
[2012/07/17 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I like dressing up:)
[2012/07/17 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unlike Blue Mars, who had invested a lot of time on their avatars,
[2012/07/17 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: CP has just done that as an afterthought
[2012/07/17 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You CAN upload pretty much any rigged mesh and call it “an avatar”
[2012/07/17 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma closes CP. Can’t do anymore without Facebook.
[2012/07/17 16:10]  TR Amat: There is a limited range of hat choices in CP. 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: sign up Zo.
[2012/07/17 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but until content creators start to do that massively on CP, well, it will take some time
[2012/07/17 16:10]  TR Amat: Sign u a dumy FB account?
[2012/07/17 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The problem with that TR,
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, that reminds me of Timeship.
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: is that sooner or later that FB account will get deleted
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: When that happens, bye-bye CP access
[2012/07/17 16:11]  TR Amat: OK just for testng?
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: How would FB know ‘Jamie Marlin’ is not an RL name?
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, that works, TR
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: all it takes is for me to report Jamie 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They don’t need to “know”
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re not an “investigation agency”
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: nor a “court”
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They just delete anything that gets reported as fake.
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: She never ever logs on so I do not think it would make a difference to her or anyone if you did.
[2012/07/17 16:12]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): FB probably byes in services from KGB or CIA, to find nonexistant people
[2012/07/17 16:12]  TR Amat: Just call yourself “Bruce Python”. 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: So even if you use your real identity, you can get reported just as easily?
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you’re NOT fake, you have an ID to prove it.
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Zo!
[2012/07/17 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It happens all the time!
[2012/07/17 16:13]  TR Amat: Always delete your cookies before and after CP, evrything.
[2012/07/17 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: In Wagner’s case FB asked his friends to confirm it was his RL name.
[2012/07/17 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You just need to flag them as fake, tell Facebook that you’re sure that the picture they got was from a fake website, etc
[2012/07/17 16:13]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): can we all report Zuckerberg beeing a fake?
[2012/07/17 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very funny, Luisa 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luisa.,.. you’re wrong about the CIA/KGB connection
[2012/07/17 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They don’t need any of that.
[2012/07/17 16:14]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): beeing an asshole, many many people would approve
[2012/07/17 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, they don’t “Investigate” anything
[2012/07/17 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: So Cloud Party is not a sign of them relaxing the ‘real identity only’ policy?
[2012/07/17 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If *ANYONE* reports a profile as fake, they SHUT IT DOWN. End of story!
[2012/07/17 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: NO
[2012/07/17 16:14]  Gilles Kuhn: indeed kgb is now called officialy FSB but it is in fact ockrana
[2012/07/17 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: If that is true ANYONE is at risk not just digital people.
[2012/07/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yep.
[2012/07/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But “real people” have ID cards.
[2012/07/17 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma doesn’t know how to delete cookies…
[2012/07/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they can restore their account easily.
[2012/07/17 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): why did the russians slip in that “S” into “FB” ?
[2012/07/17 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that what you did?
[2012/07/17 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: CP actually were a bit naive. They could have used Janrain Engage to provide registration services with 20+ different identity providers. It costs little. And so we wouldn’t be having this discussion around Facebook
[2012/07/17 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: FBS? Facebookski?
[2012/07/17 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: How do they check ID cards? I mean, do you just send them a “photo” of it? That sounds easy. 😛
[2012/07/17 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, you’ve guessed right: that’s *exactly* what IMVU uses for registration. That’s why they have 50 million and grow.
[2012/07/17 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yep
[2012/07/17 16:16]  Gilles Kuhn: and remember a true secret service you dont know his name nor his existence that what s secrecy is about….
[2012/07/17 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh that is alright. I would send them a photo of Neve Campbell. She looks a bit like me.
[2012/07/17 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: well she did in ‘Scream’.
[2012/07/17 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No… Extie, what Zo meant is that you need to send the “photo” (or rather, a scan) of your ID card
[2012/07/17 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: OK ten minutes left soooo…in ten years time where will SL and CP be?
[2012/07/17 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL will be here. Pretty much like now.
[2012/07/17 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: (yeah my ID card with her face stuck on)
[2012/07/17 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: CP will be a long-lost memory. Like Kaneva.
[2012/07/17 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s not as easy to forge ID cards as it seems; also, FB wouldn’t care. IF they had reasons to suspect that the ID card was fake, then it would simply be a crime, and they would let the ajuthorities handle it.
[2012/07/17 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: what makes you think SL will survive and not CP?
[2012/07/17 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I cannot explain that in 10 minutes, Extie 😛
[2012/07/17 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can point you to my blog though
[2012/07/17 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/07/17 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I can give a few highlights…
[2012/07/17 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: OK:)
[2012/07/17 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are far less people interested in social VWs with a virtual economy than people think.
[2012/07/17 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: These are NOT mass-market products, and won’t be mass-market for another generation,
[2012/07/17 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: (all economies are virtual)
[2012/07/17 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I meant an economy of virtual goods… sorry)
[2012/07/17 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because you need to educate consumers to think of it as thing-to-have
[2012/07/17 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, educators are doing that… slowly
[2012/07/17 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it will take another generation at least
[2012/07/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So… the point is, there are really very few people around willing to join social VWs with user-generated content and a digital economy
[2012/07/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And all are in SL.
[2012/07/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So CP has to grab users from SL.
[2012/07/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And fight for them 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This means replicating EVERYTHING Sl has to offer,
[2012/07/17 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: You should give the online world a name…a name that suggests ‘you have no life or if you do you messed it up but do not worry! Now you can have another life! try not to mess this one up OK’?
[2012/07/17 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and make it BETTER.
[2012/07/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that means replicating not only 10 billion objects for sale (my estimate; the last official statistic from LL was 6 billions, 3 years ago or so)
[2012/07/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but a whole complex network of *humans*
[2012/07/17 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: sounds hard.
[2012/07/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[2012/07/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: CP has to do all that before their money runs out.
[2012/07/17 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there is a demand for augmented reality, like … well work field related. So stuff like google goggles
[2012/07/17 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … while SL has a decade of head-start AND a business model that *pays off*
[2012/07/17 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): that is partially virtual
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t believe it.
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, AR is another field
[2012/07/17 16:24]  TR Amat: I remeber a “Second life article in the “Gurdian” (UK n ewspaper) in 2005 – I thought itsounded rediculous…
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: believe what, Zo?
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Being skeptic is good, Zo 🙂 But what exactly don’t you believe in? 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: IT
[2012/07/17 16:24]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): paying off cannot be undervalued
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: The insurmountable incumbent advantage.
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Paying off is only what matters. “Follow the money”
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2012/07/17 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well.
[2012/07/17 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess it’s a matter of belief, yes
[2012/07/17 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The only “proof” I can offer is the past 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: IF CP could make content creation so easy even I could do it, would that enable them to catch up pretty quick?
[2012/07/17 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not even OpenSim is “taking over” SL, and *they have all the technological advantages* — PLUS it is “exactly the same thing” (e.g. no learning curve)
[2012/07/17 16:25]  TR Amat: CP need to pay for their cloud resources, some how…
[2012/07/17 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: CP: maybe, but they have gone the other route: they made content creation easy for professional 3D modellers
[2012/07/17 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: OpenSim has technological advantages? It’s little more than a reverse-engineered copy of SL! That’s like saying Linux has all the technical advantages over Unix.
[2012/07/17 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: my point exactly!
[2012/07/17 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): when watching the web, I see a distributed server approach
[2012/07/17 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): inter connected
[2012/07/17 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: These days, luisa, it looks like it was a rather fortunate set of coincidences 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then again, the biggest issue I have with the OpenSim grids is that the biugger they become, the less they interconnect with others, and the more they become isolated, replicating LL (and, of course, failing)
[2012/07/17 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (OS Grid might be the only exception to that rule)
[2012/07/17 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: So if SL is Unix and OpenSim is Linux, who’s going to make the equivalent of a Mac? :/
[2012/07/17 16:28]  TR Amat: Worry when your cell phone is your server? 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: HA!
[2012/07/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: GOOD question!!!!
[2012/07/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A pity Apple abandoned all their own VW efforts by the turn of the century…
[2012/07/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[2012/07/17 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “there is no money in it”, said Jobs
[2012/07/17 16:28]  TR Amat: You? )
[2012/07/17 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: maybe the knew the tech could not fully support it?
[2012/07/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, they didn’t envision a business model to sustain the development efforts, so they stopped it.
[2012/07/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Apple does NOTHING for free 😉
[2012/07/17 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: what does Steve Jobs know about making money, anyway?
[2012/07/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … unlike Google, or even Microsoft… hehe
[2012/07/17 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Extie >:-3
[2012/07/17 16:29]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): he’s dead, Jim!
[2012/07/17 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But SL is “worth” US$700 million annually in digital content sales.
[2012/07/17 16:30]  TR Amat: Dead rich?
[2012/07/17 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, the first iPod was for Macs only, and it didn’t really take off until they made it PC compatible.
[2012/07/17 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s an interesting analysis 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: So maybe Cloud Party is like that with Facebook.
[2012/07/17 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Maybe
[2012/07/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a chicken-and-egg problem with Cloud Party.,..
[2012/07/17 16:31]  TR Amat: Read CP ToS- theytalk aout Google+ se.
[2012/07/17 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: which is?
[2012/07/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … to attract “the masses” (even if it’s just “a few hundred thousand users”),
[2012/07/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you need a lot of compelling content.
[2012/07/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But content creators want to make money.
[2012/07/17 16:31]  TR Amat: use*
[2012/07/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For that they need hundreds of thousands of consumers 🙂
[2012/07/17 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They have them on IMVU and SL,
[2012/07/17 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so what’s the point in “investing” in a “new” VW with an unknown future and a handful of users?
[2012/07/17 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!
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