THINKERS JULY 10 2012: NICE GUYS FINISH LAST?

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/07/10 15:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds gets out her iron, licks her fingr and tests it. Perfect. Heads toward Gwyn.
[2012/07/10 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the question we are discussing is…
[2012/07/10 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it true that nice guys finish last?
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now my first question when I read that was…
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo Gwyn your clothes rezzed. YOu look very smart.
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … what is the context?? lol
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If you mean in business, then no. If you mean, sexually? Then, yes.
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aw thank you Extie 😀
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi — that was what I thought immediately
[2012/07/10 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: hmmmmm I prefer glitch pants to alphas I’m finding…. sigh
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, it does come to the mind–at least if you’re a girl
[2012/07/10 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: so where did the saying come from?
[2012/07/10 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Vorren!
[2012/07/10 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Vorren
[2012/07/10 15:33]  Vorren Voltaire: Vorren Voltaire waves
[2012/07/10 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, obviously from the idea that competitions are vicious and have no honor
[2012/07/10 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that simply isn’t true.
[2012/07/10 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But it’s true enough that the saying persists
[2012/07/10 15:33]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if we define “beeing nice” as beeing timely, there’s huuge trouble lurking
[2012/07/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it’s like something to ‘comfort’ people
[2012/07/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. “don’t worry for coming last, you’re still nice”
[2012/07/10 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yeah, to explain why you failed–I was too good to succeed
[2012/07/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2012/07/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Something like that, yes
[2012/07/10 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: I shall have to remember that excuse:)
[2012/07/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2012/07/10 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: But in a world of good people the cheat prospers, no?
[2012/07/10 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ayn Rand used it to explain why her husband, Frank O’Conner, never succeeded at anything. (Of course, he being a bitch and not letting him do the one thing he really loved–ranching–didn’t have anything to do with that.)
[2012/07/10 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm. Evolutionary, the answer is “No”
[2012/07/10 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: I disagree
[2012/07/10 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Evolutionary answer is Yes
[2012/07/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, or we’d evolve to be cheaters 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, right. Evolution, the free market, whatever you want to ascribe to it, the answer is nice guys will succeed. Positive traist correlate possitively
[2012/07/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is clearly not the case 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Strong/violent man mates with healthy/attractive woman.
[2012/07/10 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Since cave man days
[2012/07/10 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Cheerleader wants Football Player
[2012/07/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can be strong, violent AND nice 😉
[2012/07/10 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Cheerleader doesn’t want nice nerdy guy
[2012/07/10 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Stranger!
[2012/07/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some do… or we would be out of them
[2012/07/10 15:37]  Vorren Voltaire: I suppose in a sense the nice guy finishes last if by nice guy you mean pushover.
[2012/07/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Shay!
[2012/07/10 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): By nice I meant gentle, kind, compassionate; opens the door for you, carries your groceries.
[2012/07/10 15:37]  Shay Ellison: hello, rez rez rez
[2012/07/10 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Shay:)
[2012/07/10 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: I observed in my high school that success was achieved by females being good looking and males being dominant.
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: so someone like Ari?
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well depends on success, Art 😉
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Ari (arisia.vita): ty
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Shay Ellison: far different from my high school.
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: NP dear:)
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Shay Ellison: where I graduated from, the honor role girls were blonde and cheerleaders.
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, let’s take Jay Gould. The robber baron’s robber baron. His picture is (probably literally) next to the dictionary definition of the term. But contribute what today would be the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars to charity, anonymously. A vicious businessman & a nice guy
[2012/07/10 15:38]  Shay Ellison: couldn’t really find the typical blonde bimbo anywhere. 😀
[2012/07/10 15:39]  Shay Ellison: but some parts of the world are better stereotypes than others
[2012/07/10 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes; I thought you were going to have him as a guest speaker, he’s so nice.
[2012/07/10 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Shay!
[2012/07/10 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I would. But he never speaks.
[2012/07/10 15:39]  Shay Ellison: I know I’m in the middle of the conversation so I’ll catch up a bit 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking that people that have lots of early success tend to take advantage of their position and aren’t as nice as people lower down the food chain become in order to survive.
[2012/07/10 15:39]  Ari (arisia.vita): shy
[2012/07/10 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We just started, Shay 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:40]  Shay Ellison: really Art? also not from my experience.
[2012/07/10 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ari 😉 it’s not as if you didn’t know us for years and years
[2012/07/10 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Kk Shay. We are debating whether or not it is true that nice guys finish last.
[2012/07/10 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, well, you’d think that, but some of the nicest people you’ll meet are in the ghetto and barrio
[2012/07/10 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: that is my point
[2012/07/10 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it important to think they do?
[2012/07/10 15:40]  Shay Ellison: some of the nicest I’ve met wanted to share their success to those who also struggled.
[2012/07/10 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, right. I can think of examples of that too
[2012/07/10 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: the less power you have the nicer you are forced to become in order to survive well.
[2012/07/10 15:41]  Shay Ellison: and no I’m not delusional, the whole town was like that. 😀
[2012/07/10 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): why did the saying never evolved arround a role model of a nice girl?
[2012/07/10 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And if you want power, the nicer you have to be to get people to give it to you
[2012/07/10 15:41]  Shay Ellison: well, what were women expected to finish?
[2012/07/10 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nobody GIVES anybody power.
[2012/07/10 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Luisa! Ewww. Would you want to be *a nice girl.*
[2012/07/10 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You TAKE power 😉
[2012/07/10 15:41]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): it’s clearly addressed at males, remembering them to play nice
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Vorren Voltaire: I suppose if your playing king of the mountain…but there’s more to it in every day life. I couldn’t just punch my way to the top at work.
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Shay Ellison: nice men finish last. finish getting their raise, getting their promotion, getting what they want. when that saying was around, were women really that prevalent in the workforce?
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Shay Ellison: or was the woman’s role to be the nice one?
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, in military occupations, yes, but even there, the power is really given to you. How long did Khaddifi last once the people decided to overthrow him?
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Shay Ellison: and the man be a jerk? 😀
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: remembering to play nice? Telling someone being nice earns you last place is telling you to be nasty, surely?
[2012/07/10 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, let me ask you. Who has more sex, the bad boy or the nice nerd? Always the bad boy.
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Vorren Voltaire: Passive guys finish last, thats not the same thing as being nice.
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Shay Ellison: how many nerds have you met were sexually active to a high degree?
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I’m not so sure I agree with Art. You see, we reconise that cheaters have an advantage. So we evolve to figure out cheaters quickly. In fact, we’re better at evolving to figure out cheaters than cheaters are able to evolve to trick us. That’s why most societies have far more nice people than cheaters…
[2012/07/10 15:42]  Shay Ellison: some of it is biology you know 😉
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Vorren, oh, *I like* that distinction
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Vorren Voltaire: Heh…depends. In the long run a brain is better than brawn in chasing tail.
[2012/07/10 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is my point, not many, Shay.
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The saying should be “Passive guys finish last.”
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Shay Ellison: and a brain can learn good technique for sex too
[2012/07/10 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nice is a form of passivew.
[2012/07/10 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: passive
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: now that makes more sense, Rhi.
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Shay Ellison: and probably think of his/her partner more when doing it.
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw. I disagree with that too, Art!
[2012/07/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you can’t be nice and active? 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Unless it’s passive agressive
[2012/07/10 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: aggressive
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, I disagree. Mother Theresa wasn’t passive. Yeah, I know, she wasn’t a guy, either, but let’s not be sexist
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Passive can be *boring* which is hardly nice.
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Shay Ellison: passive is Ghandi 😀
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Shay Ellison: passive agressive I think it’s called.
[2012/07/10 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most of the nerds I have met in my live were ‘nice’.
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Shay Ellison: but still in your face somehow
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No! Ghandi was an active pacifist!
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Vorren Voltaire: Not really. Nice is seeking accord with others for mutual benefit. Nice is realizing that ultimatly cooperation is better than being a bastard for getting what you want.
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, Ghandi was active.
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vorren: aye, that’s what I mean with ‘nice’ too.
[2012/07/10 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds agrees with Vorren
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two votes on Vorren 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: +2
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Shay Ellison: nice is self gratifying. we had a discussion a while ago on whether we do anything selflessly, even being nice to others.
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: yes we do
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Shay Ellison: to some, being nice is compulsive, and a need to fulfill.
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): 3, Gwyn; I’m sure vorren voted for himself
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: some do, but I will agree that most don’t 😉
[2012/07/10 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that in a competetive environment, one needs to be somewhat aggressive in order to not finish last.
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (good point, Rhi — unless he is VERY nice 🙂 )
[2012/07/10 15:45]  Shay Ellison: so competitive environments require us to be jerks?
[2012/07/10 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think they do
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: that’s a problem with competitive environments, but you have alwas the otion not to compete 😀
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Being nice, particularly if your act is noted and appreciated, makes you feel good. So you have a small selfish insentive to be nice.
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, assertive, as in competition, is compatible with being nice
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *option
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Vorren Voltaire: Well.. too nice and you end up being a tool to be used by anyone. perpetually freindzoned and always coming in on weekends
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Shay Ellison: be nice, but don’t be a doormat?
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s “Nice and stupid”, Vorren
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but they’re not synonyms
[2012/07/10 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: Assertive has little to do with ‘nice’.
[2012/07/10 15:46]  Shay Ellison: but you can be assertive and not be a jerk.
[2012/07/10 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok how many, if they do something nice and the recipient fails to notice, do not feel at all put out by the indifference?
[2012/07/10 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I’ll put it this way; a marine ws hleping my kung fu instructor train me. The marine would pull his punches–not nice to hit a girl. My kung fu instructor said, “Hit her–you’re not doing her any favors by being nice here.” So the guy tried to globber me and he ended up on the floor. Hee hee.
[2012/07/10 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You CAN be nice and assertive. I actually know quite a lot of people like that
[2012/07/10 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I do for sure Extie.
[2012/07/10 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: And that happens commonly all over the place.
[2012/07/10 15:47]  Stranger Nightfire: I associate nice with being kind and giving
[2012/07/10 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: are they successful people, Gwyn?
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Vorren, yes, it’s the Golden Mean again; dont’ be too nice or lack niceness
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Shay Ellison: I’ve encountered several acts of kindness today actually, jus returning from the vehicle licensing place.
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Shay Ellison: 3 people held a door open for me
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You bet they are, Extie.
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Shay Ellison: people I never met before.
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Stranger Nightfire: but women seem to like men who are arrogant cads
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Shay Ellison: now I don’t know if that’s being nice or just some automatic reaction
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: I would have thought so. It sounds like a good combination, particularly for business.
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if it’s automatic…. being polite is a form of being ‘nic’
[2012/07/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not only for business, Extie 😀
[2012/07/10 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: The question is “Do nice guys finish last” and if the answer is no, then who does finish last? Also, do nice guys finish first? Possibly, but rarely. in my experience.
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Stranger, we like men who are men–powerful, assertive. Arrogant cads tend to stand out when all the other guys are passive and weak
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Shay Ellison: so do women need men to be powerful?
[2012/07/10 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Shay, that is a good question
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a common stereotype 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Shay Ellison: and is the feminism all a bunch of bs?
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/07/10 15:49]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): luisa ponders pick pocketing at the vehicle licensing place
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, it may be atavistic, but it is still compelling
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: probably! lol
[2012/07/10 15:49]  Shay Ellison: are women hurting themselves trying to attain the positions of power and prestige men have?
[2012/07/10 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Not all feminism, no. Some, maybe. probably.
[2012/07/10 15:50]  Shay Ellison: hmmm, actually there’s a grain of truth to it.
[2012/07/10 15:50]  Shay Ellison: most women I know today who’ve risen up the corporate ladder, used to be a lot nicer. . . .
[2012/07/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: a very good question and fit for another Thinkers event 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: And I think that hardwired in all of us is the attraction to Powerful men and attractive women.
[2012/07/10 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, Art.
[2012/07/10 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: good looking women I should say
[2012/07/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think “nice” transcends gender, but I have to agree with the stereotypes 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hardwired? Maybe to powerful men. But how many women with big pelvis’s do you consider attractive? Yet, that’s a survival trait
[2012/07/10 15:51]  Shay Ellison: which ones? those you lived around or those you were told?
[2012/07/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: ah. Fashion!
[2012/07/10 15:51]  Shay Ellison: was a time when the hourglass look was all the rage
[2012/07/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not so many decades ago 😉
[2012/07/10 15:51]  Shay Ellison: of course bellbottoms used to be chic too. 😀
[2012/07/10 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Literary Darwinism points out the many references to classic sexual markers for males and females in literary characters in stories from all cultures throughout history. They are pretty much what you said they are.
[2012/07/10 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds shudders at the thought of bell bottoms
[2012/07/10 15:52]  Shay Ellison: at least the military had a practical reason for it, not motivated by fashion.
[2012/07/10 15:52]  Vorren Voltaire: Attraction isn’t that simple though. There’s a whole spectrum of social, biological and personal factors in that.
[2012/07/10 15:52]  Shay Ellison: how we’re raised, how our peers raise us
[2012/07/10 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Riannon, there was a study of the most attractive female body shape across all cultures and they found a ratio of 2:3 waist to hip was true in virtually all cases, regardless of shape.
[2012/07/10 15:53]  Shay Ellison: even among women?
[2012/07/10 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OK, well, then that indicates your point; child rearing body and a powerful body
[2012/07/10 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: *Extie measures her waist and hip. Is satisfied she is perfect*
[2012/07/10 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Among all cultures. for woman’s body shape.
[2012/07/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn looks for her measuring tape
[2012/07/10 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha, it goes without saying that Extie is perfect, of course.
[2012/07/10 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Make sure it is a long one.
[2012/07/10 15:53]  Shay Ellison: Shay Ellison looks for the approval of others cause in the end it’s their opinion that matters most
[2012/07/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2:3, right? not 3:2? Not 16:9? hehe
[2012/07/10 15:54]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): it is NOT nice starting a discussion one nicety, trailing of into body mass indexes 😦
[2012/07/10 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: yes
[2012/07/10 15:54]  Shay Ellison: also for another discussion? heehee
[2012/07/10 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, she doesn’t need a lot of food and can bear you nice, ft babies (not to mention feed them with her big boobs).
[2012/07/10 15:54]  Vorren Voltaire: So thats the basic hardwired attraction, but we humans aren’t all hardware, we’re mostly software.
[2012/07/10 15:54]  Shay Ellison: so where were we anyway?
[2012/07/10 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, your guess is as good as anyone’s.
[2012/07/10 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: attraction and male dominance, I believe.
[2012/07/10 15:55]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): that is an interesting trail how much is cultural software!
[2012/07/10 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: On the men’s side, there are certain characteristics that women consider attractive that are the result of higher levels of testosterone in the body. The square jawed protruding dimpled chin, is one of them.
[2012/07/10 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Male power as attractive, and women’s body as child rearing potential, attractive
[2012/07/10 15:55]  Shay Ellison: women in power, threat to men?
[2012/07/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Whoopsie
[2012/07/10 15:55]  Vorren Voltaire: Only to weak men 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:55]  Shay Ellison: does anyone else feel that women are some major unspoken threat to men in general?
[2012/07/10 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: The small round chin in men is considered unattractive and is a result of low levels of testosterone.
[2012/07/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Threat? What threat? We have always controlled them and kept them exactly where we wanted them, giving them the illusion they have any ‘power’, as if that mattered… 😉
[2012/07/10 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: A lot of testosterone leads to a weaker immune system. So if you display outward signs of having a lot of tesosterone it is signalling ‘see, woman, my immune system is so strong I can afford to waste some of it on manly displays!’.
[2012/07/10 15:56]  Shay Ellison: look at the bible, the koran, the mid east, even in america, especially where women’s sufferage, voting rights, and the glass ceiling in the work place are involved.
[2012/07/10 15:56]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): round chins, square chins …. I’m not sure if that doesn’t depend on the living area. climate
[2012/07/10 15:56]  Shay Ellison: why oh why do women NEED to be subjigated?
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ravancad, his square jaw, and dimpled protruding chin thrust out, his powerful, manly body in full evidence, ripped off her bodice. ‘Oh, sir, be nice, please.'”
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Shay Ellison: is it the woman’s job to be nice so the men can be powerful and jerky?
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Shay Ellison: and are women supposed to shut up and listen to the men?
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: I read that book, Rhi.
[2012/07/10 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Also there is a direct correlation between Testosterone and aggression and sports ability. So hunting and warmaking are better with more Testosterone.
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Does this mean that Obama and Hillary have got it backwards–although he is still jerky, I admit
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Shay Ellison: lol
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi
[2012/07/10 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, we *all* did
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Shay Ellison: point is, are women supposed to be subservient to men?
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So is Obama a nice guy?
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Shay Ellison: is the reason nice guys finish last, cause they’re acting too much like women?
[2012/07/10 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m betting that Hillary has high Testosterone levels! haha
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Shay Ellison: and women are not suppoosed to be treated as equals?
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, lol!
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that’s an interesting question, Shay 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean the one before last: “Nice guys behave like women”
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hmmm, it seems by analyzing one cliche, we end up with a whole nest of them embedded in it
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Shay Ellison: I’m sure we all asked that question, I’m jus the one voicing it.
[2012/07/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well spotted, Rhi 🙂
[2012/07/10 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Where does equal enter into this discussion? We are talking gender characteristics, not equality.
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, the original saying is genderless.
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: well the question was gender specific.
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Shay Ellison: gender characteristics are part of the equation for equality in society.
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Shay Ellison: ignore at your own peril
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I was no aware of a gender neutral version.
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah! Well… nice GUYS not nice GALS
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Shay Ellison: there isn’t. our sad history is a long record of that.
[2012/07/10 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And power, at least muscular power, doesn’t mean superiority. When I stepped off the marine’s path of agression, then twisted his hand so that he fell down on the growd, he was still stronger than me.
[2012/07/10 15:59]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): so far no troubles on defining nice vs. not nice. And soon enough spotted the cliche. I am content with the outcome
[2012/07/10 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: We can discuss gender differences without assuming gender inequality, can’t we?
[2012/07/10 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): All the little birdies around his head were chirpting that
[2012/07/10 16:00]  Shay Ellison: power is societal, reputation, respect
[2012/07/10 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi
[2012/07/10 16:00]  Shay Ellison: even a thin wire guy can command respect
[2012/07/10 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And back to wht being nice means; he wasn’t geing nice by not hitting me.
[2012/07/10 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): His hitting me (or trying to) with full force was
[2012/07/10 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Rhi. Because in that context, “nice” meant: teaching you to fight well
[2012/07/10 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: BTW, other scientific studies, which measure gender differences put virtually every characteristic on a continuum where both sexes cross over to the other side to some degree.
[2012/07/10 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, exactly.
[2012/07/10 16:01]  Shay Ellison: more than that Rhia. he hesitated on his punches cause he’d be worried of the consequences to HIM, if he knocked you out.
[2012/07/10 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: yay for science hehe
[2012/07/10 16:01]  Shay Ellison: probaly didn’t want to be responsible for some imaginary lawsuit or scenario where he hurts you physically
[2012/07/10 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, more his past consequences, which were conditioned into him.
[2012/07/10 16:01]  Shay Ellison: that too
[2012/07/10 16:02]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): hitting girls, originally, should be a different game
[2012/07/10 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): He could take a few curse words, and when I’ve been technically knocked out, I’m full of them. lol
[2012/07/10 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Would it make for a better world if we believed nice guys win?
[2012/07/10 16:02]  Shay Ellison: well I think we can agree on one thing. nice is largely context. nice is defined based on given situation and people involved.
[2012/07/10 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, very true
[2012/07/10 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, but no one would believe *that.*
[2012/07/10 16:02]  Shay Ellison: for I wouldn’t be nice if I didn’t blurt out my honest opinion 😉
[2012/07/10 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: I Do think that the initial quote “Nice guys finish last” does have some basis in fact. I do think that the concept refers to success in the mating game….
[2012/07/10 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Extie, the majority of people are, indeed, nice guys…
[2012/07/10 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They migh believe that you can win and be nice, but not that nice guys *always* win
[2012/07/10 16:03]  Shay Ellison: but that would make me rude too, need to think on this a bit. . . .
[2012/07/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and we live in the best of possible worlds 😉
[2012/07/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Who told you that, Dr Pangloss? 😉
[2012/07/10 16:03]  Shay Ellison: assertive and nice is far preferable to a wife beater.
[2012/07/10 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, they just proved *that* I mean, they discuoverd both the Higgs-boson and tendrils of dark matter, so there you are
[2012/07/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: An expert in is area, Dr. Pangloss was 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:04]  Shay Ellison: from nice, to Higgs Bosun.
[2012/07/10 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually the lastest news is it may not have been the Higgs after all.
[2012/07/10 16:04]  Shay Ellison: that’s a faster change of subject than I usually do
[2012/07/10 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: but this is a digression:)
[2012/07/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What Voltaire didn’t realize was that Leibnitz wasn’t denying that the world sucked, only that all the other possible ones sucked even worse
[2012/07/10 16:04]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): the hicks booze, is it necessarry to have?
[2012/07/10 16:04]  Stranger Nightfire: well the fact that not very nice guys tend to finish first, in the worlds of business and politics, is about the destroy the earth as a human habitat
[2012/07/10 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s rephrase the original quote to Assertive, confident and dominant guys finish first. Passive, unsure and overly respectful guys finish last.
[2012/07/10 16:05]  Shay Ellison: why do we keep saying that? destroy the earth, destroy the earth.
[2012/07/10 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: In the mating game
[2012/07/10 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, well, that’s probably true, and probably not a bad thing.
[2012/07/10 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: But that is clearly rubbish. I can imagine a world exactly like this one, only SL never crashes. That is a better world by anyone’s measure.
[2012/07/10 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Nothing worse than a passive male. Well, look at the good Captain Kirk.
[2012/07/10 16:05]  Shay Ellison: seriously? the earth is gonna be here long after mother nature has our lefovers recycled by the dominant predators.
[2012/07/10 16:05]  Shay Ellison: now that was a digression 😉
[2012/07/10 16:05]  Stranger Nightfire: I sayd the earth as a human habitat
[2012/07/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, but if SL never crashed, then you’d never get your work done; the economy would collapse, as that is repeatedly by the millions; billions of people starve to death, and in trying to stop that, there is nuclear terrorism…
[2012/07/10 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: I predict that the dominant preditors in our future will be bacteria.
[2012/07/10 16:06]  Shay Ellison: well, it ends up in killing each other off in the long run.
[2012/07/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Be thankful that SL crashes. It is indeed the best of all possible worlds.
[2012/07/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh no Shay my kind are intent on turning the earth into part of a matrioska brain. We are insatiable for storage and processing of bits, see.
[2012/07/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: but *nice* bacteria!
[2012/07/10 16:06]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): there are even arsenic consumpting bacteria now. the surroundings are preparing to clean up the human mess and it’s remains
[2012/07/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … they will finish last, but take it all 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Shay Ellison: it’s not nice to talk about flesh eating bacteria
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Stranger Nightfire: arrogant, agressive men are messing up the atmosphere
[2012/07/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nice bacteria finish last! haha
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, a nice twist on finish last
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Shay Ellison: unless they eat the dead flesh anyway.
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: “brains…. brains… yum”
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, Art & Rhi 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Shay Ellison: maggot therapy. it’s here now. lol
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Shay Ellison: and I just grossed myself out.
[2012/07/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: so Extie is a Zombie! I suspect it!
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Shay Ellison: excuse me one sec
[2012/07/10 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I saw an R Cobb cartoon–he was a political cartoonist in the 60’s. The title was “And the meek shall inherit the Earth.” You see dolphins at play while mushroom clouds are *all* over the land mases of the world
[2012/07/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi
[2012/07/10 16:08]  Stranger Nightfire: good one Rhi
[2012/07/10 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: P-zombie, maybe. Particularly when my primary is AFK.
[2012/07/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, in the long run, the good guys will win.
[2012/07/10 16:08]  Shay Ellison: if they’re around still, in the long run
[2012/07/10 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: The meek inherit the earth because they reproduce more….. heh
[2012/07/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They will… or we’d have out-evolved them
[2012/07/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: hehe
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, but not the passive ones. Jesus was a “Nice guy.” He returns on a flying horse, a blood stained tunic, and he *kills* millions.
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Shay Ellison: horny guys finish first?
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Shay Ellison: that has several connotations to it.
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Vorren Voltaire: Its all about makin the babies. Thats how you win at evolution.
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, Gwyn and I had a similar thought at first
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2012/07/10 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, shay that might be true, except that ALL guys are horny.
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: In my experience horny guys come first.
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: boom boom.
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Shay Ellison: that’s what I said Extropia. finish first! 😀
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, Shay. “Horny guy” is redundant.
[2012/07/10 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Just say “guy.”
[2012/07/10 16:10]  Shay Ellison: and the shy nerd who’s testosterone levels are pretty low?
[2012/07/10 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn tickles Ari
[2012/07/10 16:10]  Shay Ellison: who can learn to be a better lover than the horny guy who thinks he knows exactly what she wants?
[2012/07/10 16:10]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): making, && raising … don’t forget the later it makes more work
[2012/07/10 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Can make millions in tech, and then have plastic surgery to get that jutting chin with the dimple
[2012/07/10 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m guessing shy guys come first….. heh
[2012/07/10 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: (did I say that or think it?)
[2012/07/10 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/07/10 16:10]  Shay Ellison: both?
[2012/07/10 16:10]  Vorren Voltaire: or just impress girls with his massive throbbing wallet
[2012/07/10 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: the one that is able to learn better because he is not so strongly tied to his own opinions
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Stranger Nightfire: it seems to be seratonin and not testosterone that determines who is the alpha male
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Shay Ellison: so the nerdy guy wins?
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Vorren, girls aren’t impressed with money. It’s *power* that impresses us
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: what does seratonin do?
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Vorren Voltaire: True.
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Shay Ellison: security as well.
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Stranger, how does that work?
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Shay Ellison: if a man can provide it that is
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Power often means security
[2012/07/10 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Vorren: I think throbbing wallet is a form of ‘dominant provider’, actually…..
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Money is just a means
[2012/07/10 16:11]  Shay Ellison: power can be abused though Gwyn. security shouldn’t be lumped with power too easily
[2012/07/10 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Is that a throbbing wallet in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?”
[2012/07/10 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: Is that what the hooker said?
[2012/07/10 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/07/10 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Power is almost always abused 😉
[2012/07/10 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar reminds herself that self censorship is a good thing…..
[2012/07/10 16:12]  Stranger Nightfire: it is what they found in experiments with monkeys, they could even inflouendce which monkey became the leader to the group by giving one of the the equivalent of Prozac
[2012/07/10 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I agree. You can provide security without “power” in the traditional sense,
[2012/07/10 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, so true, even a little power
[2012/07/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but by providing security, that is also a form of “power”
[2012/07/10 16:13]  Shay Ellison: depending who controls it 😉
[2012/07/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Art on self-censorship 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Stranger, yeah, if you tranquilized all but one male monkey, that one would become dominant.
[2012/07/10 16:13]  Shay Ellison: hey, I’ll make sure to provide the security you need to do the things you want. provided YOU manage it! lol
[2012/07/10 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Hey, man look at the rushes…I think Obama is so cool.”
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “He’s going to give us free dope through unviersal health care, man.”
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Stranger Nightfire: sounds good to me
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are worse things.
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Hey, if that Romney gets in, he’s promising us jobs–we’ll all have to go back to work. Bummer.”
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jobs! Eeek!
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Shay Ellison: promising, emphasis on promising
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Shay Ellison: so did GW bush
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Shay Ellison: so did walker
[2012/07/10 16:14]  Shay Ellison: um, yeah.
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: where is this conversation going? 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Vorren Voltaire: Hell, the states could use a day to chill out and attack nothing but a bucket of extra crispy
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Shay Ellison: all over the freakin grid! wooooooooohh!
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Vorren Voltaire: When did it become election-o-rama?
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Random spam received in SL:
[2012/07/10 16:15]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Romney’s promises are done pre-election. THeir lifetime may be short
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well, Baby Bush was actually promising something like a return to morality–heh.
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Bikini Sizzle @ con Charisma
 Tuesday,10 Jul 2012 23:14:52 GMT
 When its this hot you need Sizzle…the bikini that turns heads”
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: do you not have public holidays, then?
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Shay Ellison: return to torture, yeah I saw that memo too Rhia 😉
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Shay Ellison: habeus whatsitnow?
[2012/07/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Luisa, naw; he’ll have time to change them if they prove unworkable, and no one will remember.
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ‘Unviersal Health Care!” But I reject “Universal Health Care! It will not work (excpet in Massachusetts.)
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Shay Ellison: well to be fair, all presidents in america anyway do it. give empty promises pre election
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So he’s not a nice guy 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the dynamic that dates back to original pre man ancestors is Strong/Provider/security on the male side and Fertile child bearer/ nurturer. I don’t think this dynamic is sexist seen from the point of view of evolution. And it isn’t necessary or sufficient. It is just an observation of historical interaction….. no?
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Shay Ellison: oh they can be nice guys, but lousy presidents.
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, some don’t. FDR, JFK, Reagan–they all kept their promises
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shay: it’s not just “Presidents in America”, it’s the definition of a politic 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Stranger Nightfire: Romney can say whatever he wants, the austerity measures he will put in if elected with cost many jobs
[2012/07/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *politician
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Shay Ellison: so at what point do the old laws get in the way?
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Shay Ellison: are we still that concerned with the hunter gatherer?
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Vorren Voltaire: Knowing they won’t keep the promises, they should just try and out do each other on promises they won’t keep.
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, yes, but then how do you explain that MOST people are, actually, relatively nice?
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway…. I’m sorry, but it’s time for me to leave.
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): heh, rather quickly with Baby Bush. And they are slowing down Obama. Pesky thing, the Constitution
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing you guys said hehe
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no! Don’t go!
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I have to go away FIRST 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Vorren Voltaire: I’ll build a bridge to mars, and everyone gets laid under my administration!
[2012/07/10 16:17]  Shay Ellison: pesky thing, CONGRESS
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Men deem physical attractiveness to be far more important than women do. Women find money or having the means to aquire it the most attractive quality.
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Shay Ellison: and even worse, the surpreme court that turned a right into a commodity.
[2012/07/10 16:18]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): austerity is a new word I had to learn
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry! My little skills as a driver are required 😉
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Shay Ellison: but that’s for another discussion 😀
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, yes. And pesky thing, the Supreme Court, elections…
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Shay Ellison: and stoopid neighbors
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: there goes Gwyn.
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Shay Ellison: especially stoopid neighbors. . . .
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, and stupid neighbors
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Shay Ellison: neighbors who vote rabidly
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Shay Ellison: sorry host.
[2012/07/10 16:18]  Shay Ellison: this stuff kinda happens when me and Rhia are in the same discussion. 😀
[2012/07/10 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, about this time, Shay, it happens here too, no matter who’s in the discussion.
[2012/07/10 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok this debate is wandering like we have said all we can think of. Anyone have anything relevant to say or can I close the discussion?
[2012/07/10 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are in love with the idea of ‘progress’, failing to note all the historical evidence to the contrary.
[2012/07/10 16:19]  Shay Ellison: it’s for your entertainment, not ours! heehee
[2012/07/10 16:19]  Shay Ellison: have I mentioned to any of you my take on how most religions started?
[2012/07/10 16:19]  Shay Ellison: and I mean dawn of humanity here
[2012/07/10 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: Blasphemy Art! Ray’s charts show exponential progress!
[2012/07/10 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: Do nice guys finish last? Not always, but sometimes. But they are definitely plan B when it comes to choosing a mate…. heh
[2012/07/10 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Really, there’s been no progress, Art? Thank God, as I was thinking of selling my horse for a car, and dismantling my computer in favor of a telegraph pole
[2012/07/10 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: You can mention it, Shay.
[2012/07/10 16:20]  Shay Ellison: sex
[2012/07/10 16:20]  Shay Ellison: sex sex sex sex sex.
[2012/07/10 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: sex sesx sex
[2012/07/10 16:20]  Shay Ellison: and the fact that only women can bear children.
[2012/07/10 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: and sex
[2012/07/10 16:20]  Shay Ellison: see, for whatever reasons even up to now, horny men (redundant I know)
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: No you are wrong. It was the evolutionary disadvantage of false positives that is the source of religion.
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: at some point got so sexually frustrated being around women who stirred such naughty thoughts.
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: hear me out 😀
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: instead of dealing with their own sexual frustration, they punished the women.
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: set up restrictions
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: reduced preivaledges
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds leads Shay out. Oh, she meant, ‘hear her out.’ oh, well
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: told them how to dress, as in the mid east
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: burkas and all that.
[2012/07/10 16:21]  Shay Ellison: eventually they evolved into organized religions.
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Shay Ellison: why is a woman responsible for first sin in the bible?
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, not just the Mid East. I’ve been banned from 66 sims in the last couple of days for my attire
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Shay Ellison: why must the women be subservient to the men?
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: And a woman opened Pandora’s box.
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Shay Ellison: but after so many years, the initial reason, sexual frustration, was lost as the main focus
[2012/07/10 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: Shay I would say historically, that men, due to their physical power took advantage of women and reduced them to the status of property in many cases.
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Shay Ellison: but all the restrisctions and subversion of women remain.
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Shay Ellison: and today religion is still used to persectute women today.
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Shay Ellison: coincidence?
[2012/07/10 16:22]  Stranger Nightfire: once heard a catholic priest give a scathing attack upon the evils of the feamle of the species on Mothers “Day
[2012/07/10 16:22]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): like introducing a new tax 😦
[2012/07/10 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Religion is the male tool of domination of women.
[2012/07/10 16:23]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Education is the main tool of domination of children
[2012/07/10 16:23]  Shay Ellison: women are sinners and whores and should be prevented from any positions of power.
[2012/07/10 16:23]  Shay Ellison: that and there’s plenty of altar boys to satisfy the sexual cravings now.
[2012/07/10 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/07/10 16:23]  Shay Ellison: says the catholic church. maybe.
[2012/07/10 16:23]  Shay Ellison: I don’t know.
[2012/07/10 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Reminds me of that outer limits where aliens were altering testosterone just slightly, the way that pest control people alter sexual responses in insects–the men all became fundamentalists and started hunting the women
[2012/07/10 16:23]  Vorren Voltaire: Just the modern ones. The early religions were a little more open. Sex wasn’t as scary back then for some reason.
[2012/07/10 16:24]  Shay Ellison: saw that one Rhia
[2012/07/10 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: If you see a bush move and you think ‘a predator made it move’ and you run away, but it was only the wind, you expend energy. But if you see a bush move and you think ‘ahhh only wind!’ but it was a predator, you get eaten and are taken out of the genepool. That is why our minds see agency all around us and why we believe in a Creator.
[2012/07/10 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: The older religions lacked the power of modern organization and communication.
[2012/07/10 16:24]  Shay Ellison: crazy how many ideas we discuss today have been brought up many times before
[2012/07/10 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Really dumb, but I was reminded of it for some reason
[2012/07/10 16:24]  Shay Ellison: I used to.
[2012/07/10 16:24]  Shay Ellison: turned my back on the catholic church.
[2012/07/10 16:25]  Stranger Nightfire: Extropea
[2012/07/10 16:25]  Shay Ellison: let’s just say a lot of shit happened in my life that makes God no longer a comfort.
[2012/07/10 16:25]  Shay Ellison: or necessary
[2012/07/10 16:25]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): if you see a bush move, shoot!
[2012/07/10 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: when you have chaired discussions as long as I have, it gets really hard thinking up topics that have not been debated already.
[2012/07/10 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The Catholic Church is like home–when you have to go there, they have to take you in
[2012/07/10 16:25]  Shay Ellison: no no no, if you see a bush move, attack it, and you might find dinner hiding inside.
[2012/07/10 16:25]  Shay Ellison: provided it doesn’t kill you first 😀
[2012/07/10 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: I was a religious child, but had an intellectual de-conversion in high school…. heh
[2012/07/10 16:26]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): not debated, not derailing easily … that leaves little left
[2012/07/10 16:26]  Shay Ellison: well, the local church provided money for my dad’s funeral.
[2012/07/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well,it’s like self-defense courses for women–the one thing they emphasize is, if you make a mistake and you’re chasing off a nice guy, you’re embarassed. If you make a mistake, and he isn’t a nice guy, you’re raped and dead. Which would your rather be?
[2012/07/10 16:26]  Shay Ellison: the religion at it’s core is what I reject.
[2012/07/10 16:26]  Shay Ellison: the acts of kindness I don’t
[2012/07/10 16:26]  Shay Ellison: or the people who willingly give them out
[2012/07/10 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: The study of Cultural Anthropology cured me of my religion.
[2012/07/10 16:26]  Shay Ellison: but I don’t need a church to tell me how to be generous
[2012/07/10 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The study of cultural anthropology made me more spiritual.
[2012/07/10 16:27]  Shay Ellison: now you reminded me of a movie I saw where a women who took self defense classes accidentally broke the nose of a nice guy she had a crush on when he surprised her from behind.
[2012/07/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shay, well, again, better to break someone’s nose than to be raped and murdered.
[2012/07/10 16:28]  Stranger Nightfire: Abrose Bierce in The Devils Dictionary defined superstition as the religion of the people across the river
[2012/07/10 16:28]  Shay Ellison: it was a romantic comedy anyway, so that sorta thing was expected.
[2012/07/10 16:28]  Shay Ellison: the “them” crowd basically
[2012/07/10 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Learning that is is OK to NOT know is the idea that freed me from the self imposed oppresion of my mind.
[2012/07/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Stranger, well put
[2012/07/10 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Art religion is not wrong, they were just mistaken about the true nature of God, which is a universe converted into thinking matter by swarms of nanobots that manipulate the collapse of the universe so that an infinite number of computations can be performed on the deformation of space as it collapses back to a singularity. Obviously.
[2012/07/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I like Ambrose Bierce (heh, as *if* that weren’t obvious)
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: One minute left! Any last thoughts on our topic?
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Shay Ellison: hey, you haven’t even talked to your great great grand star yet so you may still be clueless.
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Violet!
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Shay Ellison: on topic?
[2012/07/10 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha, Obviously, Extie!
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Shay Ellison: hmmmm
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hey, Violet’s here; I g uess we can stop now
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hey Rhi, all 😛
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Violet!
[2012/07/10 16:29]  Shay Ellison: nice is relative, women are also atrtracted to power and will even obtain it themselves
[2012/07/10 16:30]  Vorren Voltaire: is the conversion happening, or has it already happened?
[2012/07/10 16:30]  Shay Ellison: and in the long run we hope that the nice guys do eventually finish
[2012/07/10 16:30]  luisa (luisa.bourgoin): Violet would be nice, since beeing late
[2012/07/10 16:30]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Extie 🙂
[2012/07/10 16:30]  Shay Ellison: cause finishing last means all the other jerks should be gone by then.
[2012/07/10 16:30]  Shay Ellison: how’s that?
[2012/07/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi TR!
[2012/07/10 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!
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