Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/06/05 15:32] Extropia DaSilva: This jam packed session, testing the capacity of the sim to the LIMIT is…
[2012/06/05 15:32] Extropia DaSilva: Is a large global population a good or bad thing?
[2012/06/05 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: Baaaaaaaaaa aaaaad
[2012/06/05 15:33] ArtCrash Exonar: the end
[2012/06/05 15:33] Extropia DaSilva: and why is that?
[2012/06/05 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: I am totally in favor of a large global population!
[2012/06/05 15:33] Zobeid Zuma: I think we need to keep at *least* a million people on this planet.
[2012/06/05 15:34] ArtCrash Exonar: There is only so much farmland for food production. There is no more. So there is a limit to population.
[2012/06/05 15:34] Extropia DaSilva: well first let us define large as over four billion and small as under one billion.
[2012/06/05 15:34] Zobeid Zuma: Oh well, now you’re getting all arbitrary on us. 😛
[2012/06/05 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: Maybe we should avoid so large as to be dangerously overpopulated and so small as to be classified as endangered species.
[2012/06/05 15:35] ArtCrash Exonar: There is a branch of biology that studies populations of various species, and when they get too large, they crash.
[2012/06/05 15:35] Zobeid Zuma: I’m old enough to remember when the population hit 3 billion and everyone was in a panic and prediction mass famine and ecological collapse by the mid-1980s.
[2012/06/05 15:35] ArtCrash Exonar: Aren’t we already at 6.x something billions?
[2012/06/05 15:35] Extropia DaSilva: does technology change that at all?
[2012/06/05 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi!
[2012/06/05 15:36] Extropia DaSilva: Hello Rhi:)
[2012/06/05 15:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Z o!
[2012/06/05 15:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Extie
[2012/06/05 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: Technology changes it a lot.
[2012/06/05 15:36] ArtCrash Exonar: I think that the planet’s ecosystem is already borking due to our overpopulation. Biodiversity suffers greatly with our overpopulstion.
[2012/06/05 15:36] Zobeid Zuma: We already had the “green revolution” which saved us for a while….. But it depends on some methods that might not be sustainable in the long term.
[2012/06/05 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: I mean, we could not support the current population without modern technology so I guess it can break the barrier. I think without petrochemicals the total number we could support would be one billion.
[2012/06/05 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: I’m talking about the use of petrochemical-based fertilizers and pesticides in particular.
[2012/06/05 15:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I think it’s always going to be speculation how many the planet can support.
[2012/06/05 15:38] Zobeid Zuma: Modern agriculture is a system for turning oil into food.
[2012/06/05 15:38] ArtCrash Exonar: I have read that when a country reaches a certain standard of living their population will actually decline. So it is the poorest countries that overpopulate. This is kind of a warped survival mechanism, thinking more offspring will help survival.
[2012/06/05 15:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Asimov thought the top number would be 8 billion, and that was with synthetic food and domed cities. Harry Hazlett thought 1 trillion, but that was with solyent green
[2012/06/05 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: yes there is an excellent paper called ‘Eating Fossil Fuels’. Worth checking out.
[2012/06/05 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: It’s not really a “warped survival mechanism” as such, ArtCrash. It’s more of basic economics…. If you are a subsistence farmer, your kids are the most cost-effective farm hands you’re ever going to have.
[2012/06/05 15:39] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): HI Rue!
[2012/06/05 15:39] Extropia DaSilva: Hey Rue, welcome.
[2012/06/05 15:39] Zobeid Zuma: But if you are in an industrial society, your kids are only an economic burden for a looong time.
[2012/06/05 15:39] w: HI Rhia, Extropia
[2012/06/05 15:39] ArtCrash Exonar: We are on the cusp of not needing fossil fuels anymore. We are at the beginning of the era of ‘biofuels’. those are fuels made by gene splicing microorganisms to produce designer hydrocarbons.
[2012/06/05 15:40] Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think you can turn crops into oil to grow crops with. That’s like a perpetual motion machine.
[2012/06/05 15:40] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, not if you have societal support, Zo. What was it that Hillary said? “It takes a bureaucarcy to raise a child?”
[2012/06/05 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: But oil us used in much more than just fuel. Plastic is oil-based as is fertlilzor.
[2012/06/05 15:40] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, life is a perptual motion machine–until the sun swallows us.
[2012/06/05 15:41] ArtCrash Exonar: biofuels aren’t crops and have nothing to do with photosynthesis.
[2012/06/05 15:41] Zobeid Zuma: Biofuels have to come from some sort of feedstock. What do you have in mind, I wonder?
[2012/06/05 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: Bacteria in vats I am guessing?
[2012/06/05 15:42] Rue Moonwall: We are made of the sun, the sun gives of its energy to the grass, the grass passes the energy to animals that eat the grass, and we eat the animal for energy, so we are made of star stuff
[2012/06/05 15:42] ArtCrash Exonar: The feed stock is CO2 from the atmosphere, and water and the energy source can be anything but preferably solar.
[2012/06/05 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: The more people there are, the more brains we have to potentially figure a way around any problem. But then again, the more urgent the problems become.
[2012/06/05 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: Algae might work.
[2012/06/05 15:42] Zobeid Zuma: Art, the point I’m getting at here is that you have to grow some sort of plant matter to process into your biofuels. Currently we are using corn for a lot of it, which is kind of crazy….
[2012/06/05 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: Hi Violet!
[2012/06/05 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: I went to a conference of scientists dealing with this new technology (which is only 2 years old btw) and it was amazing to think of the possibilities.
[2012/06/05 15:43] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zo, all 🙂
[2012/06/05 15:43] ArtCrash Exonar: Zobeid, as I said before. No plant matter
[2012/06/05 15:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, algae, fungus, yeast; we’re using them all for food; backteria will generate electricity. Sun energy converted to microwave energy; there’s enough energy and food, but the question for how many? And how many political stumbling blocks will there be. We can feed all 6 billion of us, but the politicians would let us.
[2012/06/05 15:43] Zobeid Zuma: Then how does it work? What are they growing, Art?
[2012/06/05 15:44] Rue Moonwall: genetic modified plants will allow them to grow 5, 10 times their original size, faster, and with less need for water, pestified,
[2012/06/05 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: Presumably, though, a point would come (assuming the population keeps getting larger) where no technology could sustain the growth anymore.
[2012/06/05 15:44] Zobeid Zuma: Oh no, Rue! You don’t want us to eat “frankenfoods” do you? 😛
[2012/06/05 15:45] ArtCrash Exonar: They take certain bacteria / or algae and gene splice them to produce designer hydrocarbons of your choice. They ‘eat’ CO2 and water. The input energy source is needed and can be solar electricity. And Yes this will be produced in ‘vats’.
[2012/06/05 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: I’ve heard about groups threatening to attack and destroy test fields of GM food crops. 😦
[2012/06/05 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: yes, Zo
[2012/06/05 15:45] Extropia DaSilva: Happened just this week.
[2012/06/05 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: It’s madness…
[2012/06/05 15:45] Rue Moonwall: back
[2012/06/05 15:45] Rue Moonwall: yes franken food, we allready do!
[2012/06/05 15:46] Zobeid Zuma: Algae has been experimented with, but nobody’s *quite* figured out how to make it pay yet.
[2012/06/05 15:46] Extropia DaSilva: I agree. Banning specific cases is not madness. But this is more like banning the entire pharmeceutical industry just because of the Thalidomide tragedy.
[2012/06/05 15:46] ArtCrash Exonar: Zobeid. This new technology has been proven to work already. Now the various scientific groups are trying to decide how to ramp up the production.
[2012/06/05 15:47] Rue Moonwall: genetic modify food is the rule for the future, and for the poores nations
[2012/06/05 15:47] Extropia DaSilva: Well that is the real trick. Getting any alternative to scale to the size of the oil-based economy.
[2012/06/05 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: I’ll believe it when I see it, Art. 🙂 I follow some websites where I get to see a lot of these announcements, so I view them with a jaded eye.
[2012/06/05 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: The crazy thing about oil is that we burn so much of it in cars. So if we can quit doing that, it would buy us a lot of breathing room and time.
[2012/06/05 15:48] Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2012/06/05 15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya!
[2012/06/05 15:48] Rue Moonwall: it can be grown in hash inviroments, less water, less fertiliser, pestisides, and the crop biger and multi nutricious
[2012/06/05 15:48] Extropia DaSilva: Ok, assume bio works out..Can Malthus be forever postponed or will there come a time when we must face the population crash that no technology can prevent?
[2012/06/05 15:48] Extropia DaSilva: Gwinie!
[2012/06/05 15:48] ArtCrash Exonar: Zobeid, I was AT a conference with THousands of scientists working on this stuff in March. The ARPA E of the US Government is financing this. This is major and it is new.
[2012/06/05 15:48] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hey Gwyn 🙂
[2012/06/05 15:48] Zobeid Zuma: Also….. Our diet in the industrialized world (i.e. The West) is wildly inefficient. When it’s crunch time there will be a lot of fat (literally) that can be trimmed.
[2012/06/05 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: takes a lot of water to grow a hamburger.
[2012/06/05 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re making me hungry!
[2012/06/05 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: not to menton the plants you have to feed the cow to make the burger..
[2012/06/05 15:50] Zobeid Zuma: We actually feed grains fit for human consumption to cattle! Tsk….
[2012/06/05 15:50] ArtCrash Exonar: As far as population goes. Unlimited growth of a population of anything cannot be sustained. Because the resources of any population are not unlimited. …..
[2012/06/05 15:50] ArtCrash Exonar: Worse than that Zobeid, we turn grains into fuel. Which is just so wrong in my opinion.
[2012/06/05 15:51] Zobeid Zuma: The UN estimated (for whatever their estimates are worth) that world population will peak around 9 billion or so and then gradually decline.
[2012/06/05 15:51] Rue Moonwall: the population is allready 100 times biger then it would of been naturaly with out technology, tech is what made the population explosion, and more then double the average age expentancy, in Japan itself the averge age expentancy is 85 years old
[2012/06/05 15:51] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They did it to me too, Gwyn; I went and made myself some salami and cheese sandwiches.
[2012/06/05 15:51] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I also wasn’t saying anything people were interested in responding to, so I availed myself of the opportunity
[2012/06/05 15:52] ArtCrash Exonar: How many millions of people starve to death right NOW? We are already on the edges of our capacities.
[2012/06/05 15:52] Zobeid Zuma: Assuming we can manage to provide food and water for everyone, we’re still looking at a severe burden on the natural environment. The oceans are already under a lot of stress from all the pollution and overfishing.
[2012/06/05 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh. To be honest, I have no real opinion on this subject. Which is perhaps not surprising: tghis is the kind of ‘doomsday’ theroy that economists hate: as soon as they predict something dreadful that will happen, the market ‘conspires’ to make it far less dreadful than it was predicted 🙂
[2012/06/05 15:53] Rue Moonwall: Yeah Zobeid, the UN all it does is give big speaches
[2012/06/05 15:53] Zobeid Zuma: No, we’re not on the edge of our capacities. People are starving because food doesn’t get to where it’s needed, not because we don’t have enough.
[2012/06/05 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, I don’t know.
[2012/06/05 15:53] ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, let me remind you, this is Thinkers. If you don’t have an opinion, you make one up! heh
[2012/06/05 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo is actually right!
[2012/06/05 15:53] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If INdia, China, and Russia all privatized their farming, they could export enough to feed the world’s population, and the Farm Boards in Africa are creating artificial food shortages. We are not at capacity
[2012/06/05 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha Art! Aye, that sounds about right…
[2012/06/05 15:54] ArtCrash Exonar: China can’t support it’s own population right now. They import food from the US and others.
[2012/06/05 15:54] Extropia DaSilva: can anyone think of any negative consequences of a small population? Like, imagine the human race stayed at around 1 million since 100,000 BC. What would the world be like today?
[2012/06/05 15:54] Zobeid Zuma: Brazil is clearing jungle and ramping up large-scale agriculture like crazy.
[2012/06/05 15:54] Rue Moonwall: Art, there are less starvation know then there ever was before
[2012/06/05 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that we *have* the technology, the means, the money, and the resources to support, say, 30 billion humans on this planet. We just don’t have the *will* to do a fair redistribution of resources with little environmental impact.
[2012/06/05 15:54] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, yes, exactly. If they privatized, they could export food, so there system not only doesn’t support their own population, it takes food from other countries.
[2012/06/05 15:55] Rue Moonwall: considered even the poorest in america today, to the poorest 100 years ago
[2012/06/05 15:55] Zobeid Zuma: There are pluses and minuses either way, Extie.
[2012/06/05 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: empty, just like SL! hehe
[2012/06/05 15:55] Zobeid Zuma: Ha! Good comparison.
[2012/06/05 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: Rue, I don’t believe that. There is mass starvation in Africa right now for example.
[2012/06/05 15:55] Rue Moonwall: Even the poorest in america eat better, then a king ate 300 years ago
[2012/06/05 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: well we looked at the downside of a massive population. What is the downside to a small one?
[2012/06/05 15:55] ArtCrash Exonar: Rue, that is just propaganda.
[2012/06/05 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: Well… Eat more lavishly, or more wastefully, perhaps. Not necessarily “better”. Depends on what you mean by better, I guess.
[2012/06/05 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: The poor in my neighborhood don’t eat much. There are huge lines at the shelter free lunches.
[2012/06/05 15:56] Rue Moonwall: ARt, starvation in africa not because lack of food available, but because of politics and war
[2012/06/05 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: And climate
[2012/06/05 15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: About a bilklion humans starve, and another billion is very close to starvation. However, that’s ‘only’ 2/7th of the population — far, far better than 20, 50, or 100 years ago. Of course, in *absolute* nu,mmbers, more people starve because there are so many more… but in *relative* numbers, it doesn’t look half as bad.
[2012/06/05 15:56] Rue Moonwall: and climate
[2012/06/05 15:56] ArtCrash Exonar: Climate mostly
[2012/06/05 15:56] Zobeid Zuma: In the little town where I live, the Mexicans seem to have the least concept of a healthy diet.
[2012/06/05 15:56] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The poor in my neighborhood eat at McDonald’s for or five times a week and buy potato chips and sodas at the market
[2012/06/05 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: The truly poor don’t feed their children dinner.
[2012/06/05 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bad farming models too, Art & rue
[2012/06/05 15:57] ArtCrash Exonar: They depend on school lunches.
[2012/06/05 15:57] Rue Moonwall: yes, politics, climate, disease, politics, stupid economic dessesion, these are the usaual culprits of poverty
[2012/06/05 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yes, becaiuse a hamburger is cheap in the US
[2012/06/05 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rue: indeed
[2012/06/05 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: If the world population stayed at around one million, would that affect any of our achievments like, say, the Moon landing or the building of the LHC or the great cathedrals?
[2012/06/05 15:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And politics.
[2012/06/05 15:58] Rue Moonwall: not technollgy, on the contratri tech is the engine of mass production, including food
[2012/06/05 15:58] ArtCrash Exonar: The point of our discussion tonight is can we support an ever increasing population and I think the answer is clear: NO.
[2012/06/05 15:58] Zobeid Zuma: I think both Extie and Art are missing the point.
[2012/06/05 15:58] Rue Moonwall: Art, the answer is clearly YES!
[2012/06/05 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: No the point is to debate the good and the bad of both a massive AND a small global population.
[2012/06/05 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: Extie: If there were only a million people, things would be very different. And if pigs could fly, things would be very different. Neither is happening, I hope very much.
[2012/06/05 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes, I believe so. There is an old saying among SF authors: it takes 1000 bad SF authors to get one good one. And 1000 good ones to get one winner of the Nebula award. So, because there are a few million SF writers — most of them bad! — it means that a handful actually are excellent and win awards 🙂
[2012/06/05 15:59] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, why do you hope that? Flying pigs could be fun
[2012/06/05 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The same theory is also applied on athlets
[2012/06/05 15:59] Rue Moonwall: Art, the reason the population has grown to 7billion is because of technology
[2012/06/05 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Rue.
[2012/06/05 15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: People die less and live longer.
[2012/06/05 15:59] Zobeid Zuma: Art: The trends don’t show population increasing indefinitely, so that’s something we don’t really need to try and plan for.
[2012/06/05 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: Think of this as a kind of alternate history thougt experiment. You know like ‘if Hitler had won the war…’
[2012/06/05 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s technology for you.
[2012/06/05 16:00] Rue Moonwall: other wise there would be only a few 100,000’s population
[2012/06/05 16:00] ArtCrash Exonar: This pollyanna ish belief in technology saving us from lack of resources is only true up to a certain point. It is just a belief. It is not a fact.
[2012/06/05 16:00] Zobeid Zuma: Well, it’s a thought experiment too ambitious for me to tackle on short notice.
[2012/06/05 16:00] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “If Hitler had won the war, the whole world would resemble Los Vegas.”–paraphrased from Hunter Thompson
[2012/06/05 16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Example: Nigeria, Pakistan, Indonesia. Culturally, they are conditioned to have at least 10-12 children, because most would die — on average, 2 remaining alive for the next generation.
[2012/06/05 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: yeah but define technology. Stone agers could not have hunted animals with their bare hands. They used technology.
[2012/06/05 16:01] Zobeid Zuma: Who believed that, Art?
[2012/06/05 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But noiw, out of tyhose 12, few die
[2012/06/05 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: even in Nigeria 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:01] Rue Moonwall: Is a fact! try feeding 7 billion people with out tech
[2012/06/05 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: so technology has always been fundamental to human existence.
[2012/06/05 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes 😀
[2012/06/05 16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re much more “Homo faber” than “homo sapiens”
[2012/06/05 16:01] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, basically capitalism and at least steampunk level technology. The population of Europe triplicated in the 19th century and that was the only major difference.
[2012/06/05 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: If you go back so far that there is no technology, that primate is not a human being.
[2012/06/05 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would agree, Extie!
[2012/06/05 16:02] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Orega y Gassett pointed that out, and I believe him
[2012/06/05 16:02] ArtCrash Exonar: There is only X amount of farmable land on earth. That is the limit of food production.
[2012/06/05 16:02] Zobeid Zuma: It would be unrealistic to think that advancing technology could support unlimited exponential growth of population. But of course, that’s not the growth scenario we are faced with. It’s not implausible to think we can handle what we actually foresee coming.
[2012/06/05 16:02] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds imagines big domed cities on Mars and under the sea but doesn’t want to burst Art’s bubble
[2012/06/05 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is only X amount of farmable land on Earth *using current technology*.
[2012/06/05 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: And if you go far enough into the future, that being is not a primate but a technological entity. Like a robot or something.
[2012/06/05 16:03] Rue Moonwall: technology started when the firts spear was invented, it save you from running after the deer, or even had to wrestle the deer down, most times the deer got a piece of you, if not runing with out shoes, cut your foot, and often enought you died from infe tions
[2012/06/05 16:03] ArtCrash Exonar: Given our water resources, Gwyn.
[2012/06/05 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can synthesize water, Art. It’s just not cost-effective *now*
[2012/06/05 16:03] ArtCrash Exonar: or ever
[2012/06/05 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that depends on the technology level 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:03] Rue Moonwall: many pre-agreculture, died from infections hunting down gain
[2012/06/05 16:04] Zobeid Zuma: However……. I do think we’ve strayed a bit. The question was supposed to be, what population level would we *like* to have on Earth, not how many can we possibly keep alive.
[2012/06/05 16:04] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Trantor had 50 billion people on it, and got all it’s food from other worlds.
[2012/06/05 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm!
[2012/06/05 16:04] Rue Moonwall: before agriculture (a wave of new tech at the time) you had to FIND FOOD, after agriculture YOU MADE FOOD!
[2012/06/05 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn would like Isaac Asimov’s “Aurora” model… a few thousands, lots of robots on farms 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:05] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, the population levels we’d like, Zoe? Just enough to keep Social Security going indefinitely. Any further rise is problematic
[2012/06/05 16:05] ArtCrash Exonar: Best evidence shows that the Mayan culture died out due to overpopulation leading to a crash of their culture. This is the fate of all overpopulaions, regardless of species…..
[2012/06/05 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: Does anyone believe the number we have now is fine, if only we could distribute resources to everybody? Or is that just not possible not matter what tech we have?
[2012/06/05 16:05] Zobeid Zuma: The Black Death killed roughly a third of Europe’s population….. After all the horror and misery had run its course, the surviving society found a lot of benefits.
[2012/06/05 16:05] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds won’t tell Gwyn that was really Solaria; Aurora had a lot of robots and big cities, much like a future Earth
[2012/06/05 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rue: and it’s plausible (just not cost-effective yet!) to imagine synthesising food directly from atoms 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ouch Rhi — I stand corrected!
[2012/06/05 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *slaps her forehead*
[2012/06/05 16:05] ArtCrash Exonar: Easter Island is another case of overpopulation leading to extinction.
[2012/06/05 16:06] Rue Moonwall: Becuase we had the tech about 10,000 years ago, we use agriculture, and thats when that was the first population explosion,
[2012/06/05 16:06] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, very true, labor shortages, rising wages, democracy, finally woman’s right. You, Extie and I would be cooking on wood burning stoves if it weren’t for the Black Death
[2012/06/05 16:06] Rue Moonwall: agriculture the first wave of technology
[2012/06/05 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees
[2012/06/05 16:06] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, just one thoery, another is that religious use of trees eliminated them.
[2012/06/05 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, the first wave that lead to population explosion
[2012/06/05 16:06] Rue Moonwall: we are know entering the third wave of techonolgy, the information age
[2012/06/05 16:06] Zobeid Zuma: Err…. Wood burning stoves aren’t that far back, really.
[2012/06/05 16:06] Rue Moonwall: the third wave
[2012/06/05 16:06] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And another is they all migrated to other Polynesian Islands (hmm, back to domed cities on Mars…)
[2012/06/05 16:07] Rue Moonwall: the secound wave was the industrial wave
[2012/06/05 16:07] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, no, actually about a month ago in my case. I use them for heat. Have to call the Fire Department now to see if it’s ok.
[2012/06/05 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: When we can get food out of asteroids, we’ll be able to support 30-50 billions easily 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:07] Extropia DaSilva: No I would be a painting rendered in the dried mud of my primary’s hovel, that being the only way ve could create a digital being ina pre- book or Internet era;)
[2012/06/05 16:07] ArtCrash Exonar: BTW, it is impossible to colonize Mars, because it has no magnetic field and so it can’t sustain an atmosphere of any density…..
[2012/06/05 16:07] Rue Moonwall: 1st wave agriculture, 2nd wave industrilisation, 3rd wave knowledge wave
[2012/06/05 16:07] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, asteriods will probably more be a source of materials, like what we need in our cell phone to talk to the farmers on Mars
[2012/06/05 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: When I was growing up, the population was around 3 billion. It was enough to accomplish some great things. The world didn’t seem to be crushed under the weight of us all. So I’d nominate that as a comfortable number.
[2012/06/05 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d say that a billion people would be about right 🙂 The problem is: how do we *shrink* population???
[2012/06/05 16:08] Extropia DaSilva: Cool to think those wonderful cave paintings in..wherever are my ancestors. The prototype fictional beings from which digital people evolved!
[2012/06/05 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I was thinking about direct matter conversion 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:08] Rue Moonwall: The weight, it the complexity of things today
[2012/06/05 16:08] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Heh, I read a silly story written by Phillip K. Dick, where the people forced to farm on Mars led their lives through dolls and a drug that allowed them to project themselves inot the dolls. NOw, who would live his or her life through dolls that they could manipulate?
[2012/06/05 16:08] ArtCrash Exonar: The richer the culture the fewer the children, so shrinking population can occur with making the population richer.
[2012/06/05 16:08] Zobeid Zuma: Well there’s the rub, Gwyn….. There is no dial you can turn to set the population level. You have to try to influence and convince people.
[2012/06/05 16:09] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I ask you…
[2012/06/05 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: Extie would 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:09] Extropia DaSilva: would not!
[2012/06/05 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: to voluntarily commit suicide? 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:09] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, i was being like totally ironic, as we’re all doing that atm
[2012/06/05 16:09] Rue Moonwall: everything is so complex, a 12 year old today, knows more then the world knew 1000 years ago
[2012/06/05 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yeppers 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay for PKD!
[2012/06/05 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Great Visionary 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:09] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): He just didn’t anticipate computer techology; thought it would be drug induced
[2012/06/05 16:09] Zobeid Zuma: I was thinking, convince them to have fewer children. Although, I suppose if we started setting up convenient suicide booths on the streets, it could only help!
[2012/06/05 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, chatrooms work like drugs lol
[2012/06/05 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: Is what Rue said really the case?
[2012/06/05 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: 12 year olds ‘think’ they know it all. And 12 year olds always have! haha
[2012/06/05 16:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, sure and a death industry, like in Soylent Green
[2012/06/05 16:10] Rue Moonwall: Gwyneth, electronics are addicting
[2012/06/05 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: even the methods applied in China and India will take decades to *stabilise* their population at around a billion.
[2012/06/05 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: I can imagine youngsters can PARROT far more facts, but do they have more KNOWLEDGE?
[2012/06/05 16:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, just convince those who overpopulate to move to Venus–like in Burgess’ “The Marching MOrons.”
[2012/06/05 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s always fun to watch the “Shift Happens” videos on YouTube. They’re mind-boggling.
[2012/06/05 16:10] ArtCrash Exonar: They have access to more knowledge, they don’t actually posess it…. heh
[2012/06/05 16:11] Zobeid Zuma: Right Gwyn. It’s not easy to get a handle on. And yet, they have the opposite problem in Japan and much of Europe.
[2012/06/05 16:11] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): (Venus was a lot like the areal thing in the story, btw)
[2012/06/05 16:11] Extropia DaSilva: Oh yes, that must be true, what with the Web, Art.
[2012/06/05 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: although on the “Gatewaqy” series, Pohl antecipated the logistic problems in moving *millions* of settlers around…
[2012/06/05 16:11] Rue Moonwall: Gwyneth, in the last 30 years China has brought (using a very on communist method, that is using capitalist) 300 millions people out of poverty
[2012/06/05 16:12] Rue Moonwall: in 30 years!
[2012/06/05 16:12] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well it didn’t really matter in The Marching MOrons; if the ship crashed anywhere, that was ok too
[2012/06/05 16:12] Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma remembers the “food mines” in the Gateway books….
[2012/06/05 16:12] Extropia DaSilva: a communist capitalist method? How oxymoronic:)
[2012/06/05 16:12] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rue, you mean capitalist, don’t you?
[2012/06/05 16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rue: I’m not criticising China! Also, the same applies to India: around a quarter of the population has a standard of living equal to the one in Europe and the US (the problem is the remaining 75%-…)
[2012/06/05 16:12] ArtCrash Exonar: So called Communism has always been Centralized Industrial Capitalism since the twenties…….
[2012/06/05 16:12] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, actually, Marx, in describing the socialist phase, had something like a marke syndicalism in mind
[2012/06/05 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh. Calling China communist is like saying the US are a theocracy because you have to believe in God to be a politician…
[2012/06/05 16:13] Extropia DaSilva: Did he?
[2012/06/05 16:13] Rue Moonwall: yes, they used very uncommunist methods (capitalist) to achieve this and a lot more
[2012/06/05 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “One country, two systems”
[2012/06/05 16:13] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, well, it’s simulated capitalism, but it failed, as shadow pricing and other technologies designed to make it work were a poor substitute for the real thing. The point is socialism doesn’t work
[2012/06/05 16:13] Zobeid Zuma: Asimov came up with the “marching morons” problem. If you try to reason with people and convince them not to have children, then the intelligent ones will get the message, and the stupid ones will ignore you and have kids anyhow, and the average intelligence level just declines from generation to generation.
[2012/06/05 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Like it happens today? hehe
[2012/06/05 16:14] Rue Moonwall: 30 years ago, most of china was still in the primitavi agriculture age
[2012/06/05 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
[2012/06/05 16:14] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, was it Asimov? I thought it was LBJ At least he put the system in place that would create the problem
[2012/06/05 16:14] Rue Moonwall: agriculture wave
[2012/06/05 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and look at them now
[2012/06/05 16:14] Extropia DaSilva: There is pretty good evidence that educating women leads to lower numbers of children.
[2012/06/05 16:14] ArtCrash Exonar: True communism has capital in the hands of the workers. That has never been tried. Central authoritarians won’t allow it. There is zero difference between the Chinese Communist bosses and the heads of large corporate banks.
[2012/06/05 16:14] Zobeid Zuma: I do think Asimov was basically wrong about that, by the way, for a number of reasons.
[2012/06/05 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes!
[2012/06/05 16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie is right on that!
[2012/06/05 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: or the heads of Gasprom in Russia 😉
[2012/06/05 16:15] Extropia DaSilva: so of all the technologies we might employ to deal with a growing population, that may be among the best.
[2012/06/05 16:15] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, well, there’s on difference, you can switch banks, put your money in your matress, go without a banking account; try that with the Communist system and they take you out and shoot you
[2012/06/05 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, but it will take centuries
[2012/06/05 16:15] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think that’s *huge.*
[2012/06/05 16:15] Rue Moonwall: But in america, enobations has allways been inbrace
[2012/06/05 16:15] Zobeid Zuma: Extie, do you know what really reduces the birth rate? Television! Because when they get a TV set, women start to see all the glamorous things they could be doing with their lives instead of raising kids.
[2012/06/05 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahah Zo
[2012/06/05 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I never heard about that!!!!
[2012/06/05 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But poerhaps it’s true!
[2012/06/05 16:16] Extropia DaSilva: You laugh but is she right?
[2012/06/05 16:16] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rue, could you say that again, it came out to me “enobations have allways been inbrace.”
[2012/06/05 16:16] ArtCrash Exonar: They don’t shoot people for doing that in China Rhi.
[2012/06/05 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: TV as a means of population birth control, mmh
[2012/06/05 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I have no idea, but sounds like a good argument to me
[2012/06/05 16:17] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, they’ve killed 100 million of their own people for not being strict Communist or following orders; maybe not for not banking at Bank Central.
[2012/06/05 16:17] Rue Moonwall: well, in some parts of the world, it hasn’t, one reason, because they blocked the exchange of ideas, the powers to be
[2012/06/05 16:17] ArtCrash Exonar: Wealth always results in fewer children. In the past people needed children as farmworkers. Let’s not forget that it is only in the last 100 years where more than 10 percent of the population weren’t farmers.
[2012/06/05 16:17] Extropia DaSilva: all countries block info on the net to some extent.
[2012/06/05 16:17] Rue Moonwall: The powers to bee, blocked exchange of ideas, blocked inovations
[2012/06/05 16:17] Zobeid Zuma: ArtC is right about that.
[2012/06/05 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My country doesn’t ***CENSORED*** anything.
[2012/06/05 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: it just shows how efficient agriculture is today 😉
[2012/06/05 16:18] ArtCrash Exonar: Extropia, it isn’t true that all countries block internet access.
[2012/06/05 16:18] Rue Moonwall: everything was first and idea in some ones head, before it manisfested it self in material
[2012/06/05 16:18] Extropia DaSilva: You ever heard of the ‘deep web’? It is the web pages that Google does not find when you run a search. Aparrently the deep web is MASSIVE in comparison to the one searchable by Google. Dunno why I brought that up…
[2012/06/05 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaning: maybe it can even get improved further 😉
[2012/06/05 16:19] Extropia DaSilva: It is true, Art.
[2012/06/05 16:19] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, it’s not that the U”S censors the deep web; it’s Google, and people’s laziness
[2012/06/05 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: The US does not black any access to anything on the internet.
[2012/06/05 16:19] ArtCrash Exonar: block
[2012/06/05 16:19] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I once thought of checking out the non web internet, got all ready to do it and then got distrtacted
[2012/06/05 16:20] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art. OMG! For once, I agree with you. Are you well? You don’t have that bug that’s going around, do you?
[2012/06/05 16:20] Extropia DaSilva: welll maybe if you are a class A superhacker you can access absolutely anything. But I can guarantee there is secure information mere mortals could not access.
[2012/06/05 16:20] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It just takes a few codes and the willingness to go into the frontier to do most of it, Extie.
[2012/06/05 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait, you’re talking about confidential documents and corporate private documents, Extie? of course those are not public…
[2012/06/05 16:20] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not talking the part of the web that Black Opps uses to communicate with the aliens
[2012/06/05 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi… what aliens? Mexicans? hehe
[2012/06/05 16:21] ArtCrash Exonar: secure servers is far different than blocking categories of information.
[2012/06/05 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: I am sure I read in a tech magazine that every country has some measure of censorship.
[2012/06/05 16:21] Rue Moonwall: Extropia, the internet wild wild west is ON! Roberst and Cops! but now the cops are IT men
[2012/06/05 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I am sure that tech magazine was censored.
[2012/06/05 16:21] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The ones who use underground caves in New Mexico for their secret base–the government gives it to them in exchange for velcro, mylar, and stealth technology
[2012/06/05 16:21] Extropia DaSilva: certaiinly America and Europe do.
[2012/06/05 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers* @ Rhi
[2012/06/05 16:22] Extropia DaSilva: what has this got to do with the topic, anyway? 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie, the question is what you mean by “censorship”
[2012/06/05 16:22] Zobeid Zuma: I think we have drifted.
[2012/06/05 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And right!
[2012/06/05 16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have.
[2012/06/05 16:22] ArtCrash Exonar: We always drift…..
[2012/06/05 16:22] Rue Moonwall: The chase is all around the world!, they have all kinds of Scifi internet weapons! clog and dager,
[2012/06/05 16:22] Extropia DaSilva: my fault. me and my deep web.
[2012/06/05 16:22] ArtCrash Exonar: deep web conspiracy
[2012/06/05 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn thinks the Deep Web is an urban myth.
[2012/06/05 16:23] Rue Moonwall: the hackers VS Wealth security agents!
[2012/06/05 16:23] Zobeid Zuma: Well, the whole discussion about population is sort of moot (though not uninteresting) in the sense that nobody has much control over it. It’s like trying to control the weather.
[2012/06/05 16:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s a way to censor our thoughts, making us drift. The government has planted an agent among us to make sure we never stay on a topic–for that could lead to dangerous conclusions. ::looks around to see if she can spot the agent.::
[2012/06/05 16:23] Extropia DaSilva: So I guess the future presents two choices. Either WE figure out a solution to the population problem or nature will sort it out for us.
[2012/06/05 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn finds a handful of those agents. They must come from different governments.
[2012/06/05 16:24] ArtCrash Exonar: Nature will sort it out for us SOON, that is all I will say on the topic today! hahahahaha
[2012/06/05 16:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It would be someone who’d never missed a meeting, who might say things no US spy would say, like good things about Chinese Communism. ::eyes Art with suspicion::
[2012/06/05 16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: well spoken like a true evolutionist!
[2012/06/05 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: Dawkins would be proud.
[2012/06/05 16:24] Rue Moonwall: You can supress nature Zobeid, but you will never get rid of it, the purpose of life is to create more life
[2012/06/05 16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even Darwin would.
[2012/06/05 16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles @ Rhi & Art
[2012/06/05 16:24] Extropia DaSilva: I prefer Dawkins. He is the better writer.
[2012/06/05 16:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, it’s back to Malthug–only solutions to overpopulation: war, famine, plague or sin (birth control)
[2012/06/05 16:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *Malthus
[2012/06/05 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I agree with you on that, Extie — Darwin is boooooring
[2012/06/05 16:25] Zobeid Zuma: Actually, we have a lot of possible “solutions” to our population problem (to the extent that we view it as one). The problem is that all of those solutions are morally repugnant.
[2012/06/05 16:25] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m a closet Marxist, Rhi hahaha
[2012/06/05 16:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And we have war and plague, and famiine
[2012/06/05 16:25] Rue Moonwall: The same thing with crime, you can only supress the criminal instincs but you can’t get rid of them, they lasp backto their criminal instinct as soon as no one is watching thme
[2012/06/05 16:25] Extropia DaSilva: OO you just stepped out of the closet, Art!
[2012/06/05 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we have “Improved technology” which will make the problem go away… for a few decades.
[2012/06/05 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie — I thought it was rather obvious 😉
[2012/06/05 16:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, well, he was partly right; if you take him as science, some of his predictions did come true, and we could be in what he’d call the socialist phase–all 1st world countries, by we
[2012/06/05 16:25] ArtCrash Exonar: I’m proud to say I’m not an ‘ist’ on anything……
[2012/06/05 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re an Art-ist.
[2012/06/05 16:26] ArtCrash Exonar: ooooh well done Gwyn! haha
[2012/06/05 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn is the Queen of Bad Puns 😉
[2012/06/05 16:26] Extropia DaSilva: Would you say Malthus was wrong only in his timing, not his prediction? IE the anticipated population crash has not happened…yet?
[2012/06/05 16:26] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art would be dogmatically and close-mindedly herself?
[2012/06/05 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that the anticipoated population crash is and will always be “imminent in a few decades”
[2012/06/05 16:26] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, he didn’t really set a date–he just say it was inevitable
[2012/06/05 16:27] Extropia DaSilva: Or will the population just stabalise?
[2012/06/05 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like, say, immortality, artificial intelligence, or the economic collapse 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:27] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Marx didn’t set a date either, but thought we’d be communist by now. Oh, well…
[2012/06/05 16:27] Zobeid Zuma: Malthus was partly wrong and partly right. There’s no easy answer.
[2012/06/05 16:27] Extropia DaSilva: I have heard some say it will get to around ten billion and just kind of stay that way until the sun expires.
[2012/06/05 16:27] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I think he was dead on–either birtch control or the 4 HOrsemen.
[2012/06/05 16:27] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *birth
[2012/06/05 16:27] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Heh, the way I wrote it at first it looked like “bitch” control
[2012/06/05 16:27] ArtCrash Exonar: Marx’s analysis of how capital works is necessary to study for any economist. And they do study it even in conservative economics departments……
[2012/06/05 16:27] Extropia DaSilva: Oo birtch control sounds a painful method.
[2012/06/05 16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh bitch control seems like fun
[2012/06/05 16:28] Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn shows her inner dominatrix
[2012/06/05 16:28] Rue Moonwall: When things get rought, (like it allways has) we start using the noggin again, we have allways,
[2012/06/05 16:28] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, when people say he was wrong, they forget his major prediction–that worker or Union controlled organizations would seize political power and reign in the bourgeoisie. And that’s arguably happened, making the rest of the predictions away, or non-timed.
[2012/06/05 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm. I guess we should discuss Marx on another day.
[2012/06/05 16:29] Zobeid Zuma: Wait, when did that happen?
[2012/06/05 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, that’s a good topic, worth for a whole hour
[2012/06/05 16:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): When there are *more* people here. hee hee
[2012/06/05 16:29] Extropia DaSilva: I always thought he was the least funny Marx brother, meself.
[2012/06/05 16:30] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, lol
[2012/06/05 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh 😀
[2012/06/05 16:30] Rue Moonwall: Marx was to black and white, he saw everything from a economic point of view
[2012/06/05 16:30] ArtCrash Exonar: Marx is also one of ‘The Big Three’ of sociology.
[2012/06/05 16:30] Rue Moonwall: he was too limiting
[2012/06/05 16:30] ArtCrash Exonar: Marx Durheim and Weber
[2012/06/05 16:30] ArtCrash Exonar: Durkheim
[2012/06/05 16:30] Extropia DaSilva: Oo my time is nearly up! So final comments on this question. Is 7 billion a problem?
[2012/06/05 16:31] Extropia DaSilva: Yes, if we make it a problem.
[2012/06/05 16:31] Zobeid Zuma: Any population level, high or low, is a problem. They’re just different problems. 🙂
[2012/06/05 16:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Um, not the big three, there was also MIchels, and the guy who did the Iron Law of Oligarchy, whose name always escapes me. But yeah, pretty much, Art
[2012/06/05 16:31] ArtCrash Exonar: Marx’s mistake was he believe in the innate goodness of man. He was way off base there… haha
[2012/06/05 16:31] Extropia DaSilva: I like that answer, Zo
[2012/06/05 16:31] Rue Moonwall: no is not a problem, techn can feed an house 3 times that amount at least
[2012/06/05 16:31] Rue Moonwall: is the politics
[2012/06/05 16:31] Rue Moonwall: the problem
[2012/06/05 16:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yes. It’s hard to believe there was a time when most nations were worried that their populations were too low.
[2012/06/05 16:31] Extropia DaSilva: Okies my time is up!