THINKERS MAY 08 2012: TECH AND THE BLIND

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/05/08 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: The topic for discussion today is this:
[2012/05/08 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Google have posted a video showing a man who is registered blind being driven around by a self-driving car. How long before technological advances remove all disabilities associated with blindness?
[2012/05/08 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, about ten years, and then they’ll move on to the next disability.
[2012/05/08 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OK, what’s next weeks topic?
[2012/05/08 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Rhi. Next question!
[2012/05/08 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: If you like we can extend to the elimination of ALL disability.
[2012/05/08 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What! And get a new brain?? No thanks
[2012/05/08 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extend to whether we should–like the questions raised by the cochlear emplant for Deaf Culture
[2012/05/08 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that is a good one, Rhi
[2012/05/08 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Of course we should.
[2012/05/08 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if there will be complains from the “Blind Culture” too.
[2012/05/08 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well–what if the only was was through genetic engineering and we decided to just eliminate the handicapped?
[2012/05/08 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Seriously, blindness will not be a disability within 10 years?
[2012/05/08 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Even raising the questions is a bit disturbing
[2012/05/08 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s a race…. to make blindness not-a-problem because of all these technical aids, or to make it not-a-problem because it’s cured?
[2012/05/08 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW, Extie, I would also think that it’s far more likely to get good ‘eye implants’ (reasonably good, anyway) in 10 years than get Google’s self-driving car approved for use on public roads…
[2012/05/08 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Which will happen first? 🙂
[2012/05/08 15:35]  Roxie Marten: I have a disablity and would love a car that drives me around
[2012/05/08 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, some kinds of blindness cannot be ‘cured’ but eye implants are getting better all the time.
[2012/05/08 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I once read a Sci Fi story where no one bought the self driving cars, as they wanted one machine that they still controlled.
[2012/05/08 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Current generation already allows you to read
[2012/05/08 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t have a disability, and I might like a car that drives me around. (As long as they don’t take away my Miata!)
[2012/05/08 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I imagine it will be a niche market. I, for one, would love one! I’m a terrible driver and would enjoy being able to read while commuting
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that’s a question, Zo–what if they made these innovations mandatory–like they did with digital TV?
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It could happen.
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Did nobody think to make the automatic driving optional then? Drive if you want but as soon as you do not want to, or cannot, switch on the robotic driver.
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Roxie Marten: from how I see people drive. I would be happy to let the car drive them
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extie
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, read while commuting? That’s why God invented subways and buses
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Vixen collar (spine): whispers: Submit plugin: Escape not permitted
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: my uni actually also has a self-driving car which does NOT depend on Google Maps
[2012/05/08 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: What uni? Stanford?
[2012/05/08 15:37]  Roxie Marten: autopilot has a been a feature in ariplanes for years. now they have a computer they fly the plane hands off. no one kvetches about that
[2012/05/08 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No… University of Trás-os-Montes and Alto Douro
[2012/05/08 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: They won the Darpa Urban challenge, Stanford did.
[2012/05/08 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: they faced the same problem: no approval to drive their car on public roads
[2012/05/08 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, what does it depend on? Some old guy who rides along–Well, you go past the fish market, no, it’s no longer there, but you can tell by the smell; then you turn right at the cow…
[2012/05/08 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi… no, it sort of uses computer vision
[2012/05/08 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that’s the technical term: computer vision)
[2012/05/08 15:38]  Roxie Marten: rhi:I live in the country and still say “turn left at the johnson place” even the johnsons have not lived there in years
[2012/05/08 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaning: yes, it figures out where on the road you are
[2012/05/08 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Rhi, that reminds me of what I heard about Texans…. They’ll gladly tell you how to get to any place in the state — even if they don’t know where it is!
[2012/05/08 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wow, I keep remembering sci fi scenarios–like all space flight beting controlled by robots, then aliens hacked into the system; the solution? Train human astronauts.
[2012/05/08 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: I reckon eventually there will be a law against a PERSON driving a vehicle on a public road. YOu know, some time after the robot’s superior driving skills is well established.
[2012/05/08 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I can imagine that becoming true, yes
[2012/05/08 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, the first 1 million car pile up with the computer glitch and we’ll go back
[2012/05/08 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: That’ll be a while, Extie. There’s a huge fear of technology that has to be overcome first.
[2012/05/08 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean mmmh in my country it’s now illegal to do your taxes WITHOUT a computer or the Internet
[2012/05/08 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on who is lobbying, Zo
[2012/05/08 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: sorry, I’m preoccupied with a food fight on the LEA group chat! haha
[2012/05/08 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: So if you were told you were going blind, you would all think ‘ah well, it will not be a problem in 10 years’?
[2012/05/08 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Food fight?? What a waste! Eat food, don’t fight with it, is my motto
[2012/05/08 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: SaveMe Oh vs Solo Mornington
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: depends on what causes the blindness really
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Sort of like the nuclear thing in Japan….. You can show all the statistics in the world about how much safer nuclear is than other energy sources (particularly coal), but they’ve shut all the plants down anyhow, and it’s unclear whether they’ll ever restart.
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, you have to wait for cures. It would be a bummer, yes.
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Roxie Marten: Do I detect the throwing of sabots in this discussion ?
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know several people who are “80% vision impaired” and drive cars….
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not just one or two. Several.
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh this reminds me, I have a stupid joke to share.
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Roxie, in the immortal words of Scotty, “The more sophisticated the plumbing, the easier it is to gum up the works.” When he sabotages transwarp, so they could steal the enterprise
[2012/05/08 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So long as there aren’t any Brazilians around 🙂
[2012/05/08 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Or the fear of GM foods in Europe…. I could imagine a scenario where self-driving cars are banned indefinitely just because of technophobia.
[2012/05/08 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): heck, I’m one of them; I go into Hak-u-lau, extended awareness, and dI can drive fine–as long as I don’t have to look at road signs
[2012/05/08 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/05/08 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, I can see that befor the making of them mandatory
[2012/05/08 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tell your joke,Gwynneth
[2012/05/08 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Remember this talk is not about robot cars per se, but the ellimination of handicaps caused by blindness.
[2012/05/08 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): NO Bralilians here
[2012/05/08 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, here goes a silly story which however illustrates how people view technlogy
[2012/05/08 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is actually a true story!
[2012/05/08 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My roomie’s sister is a tour guide, and she was with a group of Brazillians, coming to Lisbon and Europe for the first time,
[2012/05/08 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Roomie? You mean Moon?
[2012/05/08 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Around here, at the zebra crossings, many semaphores do those beeps, to tell blind people that it’s green for them
[2012/05/08 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the very same, Extie!)
[2012/05/08 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, those Brazilians never heard semaphores going beepbeepbeep
[2012/05/08 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and so they asked the guide, what’s that for?
[2012/05/08 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now knows that Gwyn lives in the UK for calling them ‘zebra’ crossings
[2012/05/08 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (no, I live in Portugal lol )
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I only knew what that is because I read the Hitchhiker’s Guide. 😛
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The guide just said, “oh that’s for the blind people to know when it’s green!”
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Will in the US, if there’s a zebra crossing, that means that zebras will, in fact, be crossing
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Commented one Brazillian to the other,
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Oh gosh! Aren’t they sophisticated here in Europe” They even allow blind people to DRIVE!”
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: What gwyn is talking about sounds more like a Pelican crossing. THEY are the ones with the button you press and the green for go man and the beep beep beep. A zebra crossing has none of that.
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): lol!
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Roxie Marten: hehe
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Bwahaha! 😀
[2012/05/08 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s it
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So of course we laughed,
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it shows how people have so much trust in technology!
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: I like that story.
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Roxie Marten: in the disabled community we it “adaptive techology” if they have a techology that helps blind people as well as others int he disabled community get around I am all for it
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I can imagine that a self-driving car for the blkind will get an equal amoun t of technophobes and technophiliacs to comment
[2012/05/08 15:45]  Roxie Marten: er we call it
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Here in the USA we got rules requiring electric cars to make a sound when moving, so the blind can detect them.
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): heh, can help thinking of that Rutger Hauer movie where he’s a blind, ex-Special Forces guy; had to drive; one guy he almost runs into yells, “Where did you learn how to drive? Are you blind?” He gets a maniacle look on his face, turns to the guy and says, “Yes!” The guy freaks and turns around and drives in the opposite direction
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: But…you kind of HAVE to trust in technology. We cannot live without it.
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that makes sense, Zo!
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Extie
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Roxie Marten: exite:I true the wheels don’t fall off my wheelchair
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: The irksome thing about it is that there was no debate…. no legislation passed…. no opinions asked of the public…. The blind organizations asked for it, and the transportation department mandated it. Just like that. 😛
[2012/05/08 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you can always take an Islamic tack–“We will be landing in Calcutta in 1/2 hour; if God be willing.” That *was* sooo funny.
[2012/05/08 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I told you guys about that, didn’t I?
[2012/05/08 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: No studies or research done to find out whether it made sense either.
[2012/05/08 15:47]  Roxie Marten: zobeid:we didn’t ask you for wheelchair ramps on curbs either
[2012/05/08 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s why you have to be nuts or brave to get into a car with a Muslim.
[2012/05/08 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Callip!
[2012/05/08 15:47]  Callipygian Christensen: Callipygian Christensen waves hello
[2012/05/08 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Guys, welcome Calli to the group 🙂 She’s a good friend of mine.
[2012/05/08 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I know that from experience too, Rhi. 😀
[2012/05/08 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Welcome Calli to the group
[2012/05/08 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: But I think after decades of a car making a noise as you turn the ignition, people will still want that. Like some psychological thing.
[2012/05/08 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey, welcome!
[2012/05/08 15:48]  Roxie Marten: Roxie Marten wonders why we need to ask the ableboided permission for adaptive aids in our lifes
[2012/05/08 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: They only know two positions for the accelerator: closed, or wide open.
[2012/05/08 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I would want my electric car to sound like Sebulba’s pod racer.
[2012/05/08 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds thinks it’s because it’s the able bodied who make the aids
[2012/05/08 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh like those cars that have recordings of F1 motors played through the stereo, for guys having puny cars but wishing them to sound like F1 ones? 🙂
[2012/05/08 15:49]  Roxie Marten: rhi:I suppose we could stay home and to pollute the world with our presence
[2012/05/08 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Whenever I finally get an electric car, I’ll probably find the little speaker or buzzer, whatever it is, and clip the wires.
[2012/05/08 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, will, it’s a metaphysical issue–they believe that they are slave to God, and if he is willing, they will be safe, and if he is unwilling, there ain’t nothing they can do about it.
[2012/05/08 15:49]  Roxie Marten: and not pollute the world with our presence
[2012/05/08 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Bet those guys were kids who stuck playing cards in the spokes of their bicycle wheels.
[2012/05/08 15:50]  Roxie Marten: I want a steam powered car
[2012/05/08 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: You can get them.
[2012/05/08 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, I’m tempted to do that on my 1999 Ford Ranger. It’s a sweet little car, but it was built to 90’s regulations, so I take the keys out and it beeps incessantly to the point where I want to shoot it with my .357 Magnum.
[2012/05/08 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: They used to make steam cars. It was a viable technology that died because of some odd circumstances.
[2012/05/08 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really? What circumstances? I thought that it was only because they were inefficient
[2012/05/08 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yeah, the discovery that that waster product from oil production–gasoline—could actually be used to fuel cars.
[2012/05/08 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: It is often the case that a technological solution triggers a new set of problems. Would this be the case with technologies that elliminate difficulties associated with blindness?
[2012/05/08 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They used to just drop it to the bottom of the ocean
[2012/05/08 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: very likely 🙂
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, if they actually start perceiving the aliens disguised as humans who control us, probably
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Roxie Marten: ext:I would liketo know why you keep equating the need for a self driving car to only the blind
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Most steam cars needed water added from time to time as they travelled, which usually came from public watering troughs (i.e. horse troughs)….
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: sorry guys, but I’m super tired and I still need a shower before beds
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: need to poof!
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tvy, TC!
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Would it be possible to elliminate the problems associated with blindness even if blindness itself remains uncured?
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: tc 🙂
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can’t shower before bed; it wakes me up
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Toy (aeni.silvercloud): bye!
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye Ivy.
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye Toy!
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I do take a nice, hot bath though
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller waves and poofs
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: But there was an epidemic of hoof-and-mouth disease, and a lot of those troughs were shut down to prevent the spread.
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye Toy!
[2012/05/08 15:52]  Roxie Marten: save time shower in bed
[2012/05/08 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: And by the time that was over, WW1 was going, and strategic materials were diverted to the war effort….
[2012/05/08 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you mean have Geordi’s Visor? I’d say, yes.
[2012/05/08 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I personally don’t think you can replace *everything* around us to allow blind people to use it,
[2012/05/08 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: And by the time WW1 was over, recirculating steam engines didn’t need water added, but it was too late, gasoline had taken over.
[2012/05/08 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but you certainly can improve the way eye implants work.
[2012/05/08 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s time for another of my pearls of ancient wisdom….
[2012/05/08 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, I knew gasoline was involved somehow.
[2012/05/08 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn clears throat
[2012/05/08 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: But an implant or a Geordi visor kind of counts as a cure.
[2012/05/08 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds buries her head
[2012/05/08 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, then what is a cure for blindness?
[2012/05/08 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Walking on gravel and stones hurts your feet. So one might be tempted to place leather all over the world, so that your feet don’t get hurt. On the other hand, that requires an incredible amount of resources. It’s far easier to use two tiny strips of leather, wrap your feet around them, and walk everywhere”
[2012/05/08 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If we eliminate it as a handicap, then is it cured?
[2012/05/08 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shantideva, 8th century CE
[2012/05/08 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I think it’s far easier to develop better eye implants
[2012/05/08 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: than to adapt everything for blind people to use.
[2012/05/08 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Right on Gwyn.
[2012/05/08 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And eye implants are REALLY getting better. As said, you can already read with them.
[2012/05/08 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So what you’re saying Gwyn, is it’s easier to have a Geordi visor than it would be to have braille everywhere, self-driving cars, and entertainment geared to the visually impaired (not sure; I think that’s called radio)
[2012/05/08 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yes, exactly (even though I’m just using a 1200-year-old argument 🙂 )
[2012/05/08 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: A cure for blindess is anything that allows you to SEE directly. As I understand it, Geordi laForge WITH his visor is not blind. In fact he has supersight because he sees in wavelengths the naked eye cannot detect.
[2012/05/08 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but the analogy breaks down because the blind can’t wait for the visor; so have to have braille, self driving cars, radio, and audio books
[2012/05/08 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It actually was easier to pave the world in leather because we couldn’t figure out have to starp the fee tiwh it
[2012/05/08 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But we knew how to re design the world
[2012/05/08 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: ONTH, arguably, something like sonar might not count as curing blindness. Because detecting objects and obstacles with refllected sound is its own unique kind of sense.
[2012/05/08 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Lost and afraid in a world you never made?” Brandon’s original response: “Why didn’t you?”
[2012/05/08 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Everything about this subject is temporary. In the long run we’ll be able to synthesize any part (or all) of the human body, and thereby cure *everything*.
[2012/05/08 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, we need temporary fixes; sometimes they end up being the fix
[2012/05/08 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe
[2012/05/08 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, it is possible to humans to perform echolocation. It’s just very difficult and requires a lot of training. (And good ears!)
[2012/05/08 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OK, social security–temporary fix for retirement income; hey now *the* fix; deficit spending, temporary fix for economic stagnation; now built into the system.
[2012/05/08 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW did you know when you read in braille you get activity in the visual cortex more than you do in areas to do with touch? This shows people adept at reading braille really ‘SEE’ what they are reading.
[2012/05/08 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what’s wrong about improving eye implant technology? As said, in 10 years it could give you, say, 20% of normal vision, and that’s enough to alow you to drive a car….
[2012/05/08 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I didn’t know that, but it makes all the sense after reading “How The Mind Works”
[2012/05/08 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Nothing wrong at all; I’m just waying what we should do in the mean time
[2012/05/08 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Zo.
[2012/05/08 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Make sure that the technology gets cheaper? 🙂
[2012/05/08 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh is that that Steven Pinker book?
[2012/05/08 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Technology always gets cheaper over the long run, unless there’s taxation on it or something else preventable
[2012/05/08 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes)
[2012/05/08 16:01]  Roxie Marten: a couple of years ago there was a story in the news where they wired ccd into the nerve endings of the tongue. they found the tongue goes to the visual cortex. the patient could see
[2012/05/08 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Cars used to be for the rich; now everyone in poor neighborhoods have cars; it’s police protection and other State benefits that are scarce
[2012/05/08 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I have read that.
[2012/05/08 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Roxie, I remember that story too.
[2012/05/08 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Roxie, so he went “OMG; I’m eating spinich. yuch, phooey, ptui, ptui, ptui?”
[2012/05/08 16:01]  Roxie Marten: rhi:it made oral sex even more interesting LOL
[2012/05/08 16:01]  Roxie Marten: opps me bad
[2012/05/08 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Roxie, lol.
[2012/05/08 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, actually, if you made cock taste like spinich, I might, um, well, never mind.
[2012/05/08 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Oral sex? I find that hard to swallow.
[2012/05/08 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi! lol
[2012/05/08 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie ㋡
[2012/05/08 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds knew there was a reason she wanted a bent over ani this time.
[2012/05/08 16:03]  Roxie Marten: thank you extropia will be here all week
[2012/05/08 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gosh you guys are perfect at bad puns….
[2012/05/08 16:03]  Callipygian Christensen: Callipygian Christensen mutters about proof that God is a man
[2012/05/08 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Entertaining all with my speech. For I am a cunning linguist…
[2012/05/08 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: anyway what were we discussing again?
[2012/05/08 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What happens when we cure oral sex with technology meant to cure blindness, I think
[2012/05/08 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: k, back…. heh
[2012/05/08 16:04]  Roxie Marten: I could see that
[2012/05/08 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi!
[2012/05/08 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Eeek
[2012/05/08 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You could ask the next question, Extie….
[2012/05/08 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, sometimes feeling and sensation can take the place of sight.
[2012/05/08 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “What if blind people refuse treatment?”(assuming treatment is available)
[2012/05/08 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then we force it on them; we don’t want them to be unequal, right?
[2012/05/08 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I would say it is up to them.
[2012/05/08 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should society still provide them with alternatives, if they made the choice to remain blkind?
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Ari is leaving everyone.
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Roxie Marten: you mean like deaf people and the collical <sp> iimplant controversy ?
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh I finally noticed your most lovely dress, Extie!
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Roixie: exactly.
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: But NOT without giving me a hug.
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Roxie Marten: there are some real strong opnions about that on VA island
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Hug & Kiss 2.02 Deluxe: Arisia Vita invited you to a couple animation, choose ‘yes’ to accept
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Hug & Kiss 2.02 Deluxe: say /50stop to stop the animation prematurely
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye gorgeous:)
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have attended a few meetings in-world to get a taste of what they really think, yes, Roxie
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Arisia Vita: be well and happy…to all
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, you like it?
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, is there a blind culture as well as s def one
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, TC, ARisia
[2012/05/08 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I love it, Extie!)
[2012/05/08 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gee, if didn’t offer to hug me
[2012/05/08 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2012/05/08 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo did I tread on you, gwyn? Sorry!
[2012/05/08 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No problem, Extie 🙂
[2012/05/08 16:07]  Object: Hi Extropia DaSilva! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[2012/05/08 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So if all disabilities become ‘cultures’, and we have invested in a lot of technologies to ‘cure’ disabilities, and people refuse to be cured… what then?
[2012/05/08 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A difficult ethical dilemma.
[2012/05/08 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt deafness is only a culture because of sign language. What other disabilities have their own language?
[2012/05/08 16:08]  Roxie Marten: Then nothing. plenty of people refuse treatment for a varity of illnesses every day. we don’t close up the cancer labs or stop performing heart transplants
[2012/05/08 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t think there are that many who would deny a fix to their sensory disabilities. They have a right to decide for themselves what they will do. But they have no business opposing the tech that will work for others.
[2012/05/08 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds agrees with Art
[2012/05/08 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Right. The freedom to choose must include the freedom to opt out.
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, perhaps I didn’t explain myself properly….
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Roxie Marten: You are talking about an invasive surgery for “cure” that is not 100% There is a cure for nearsightedness not every one goes in for Lasik surgery
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: In theory, yeah…. In practice….
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine, these days you have to take into account a lot of legislation to provide for people with disabilities
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Special buildings, special everything
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That has a huge cost.
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now imagine, all those costs can be poured into technology
[2012/05/08 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and making implants dirt cheap
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so you could afford them universally
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BUT
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and here is the ethical dilemma…
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, I thought about Lasik surgery; it would “cure” my near sightedness, all the way to where I could wear just thin glasses; well, with plastic, I can wear thin glasses anyway; and used contacts when I danced.
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: People with disabilities would be able to opt-out of the system,
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so governments would have to have TWICE the cost —
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Roxie Marten: you make us sound like cattle or village idiots
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: both to keep the exiosting legislation for the current special disabilities refitting,
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: AND to pay for implants
[2012/05/08 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, the solution to that is totally private health care; those who want a technology pays for it
[2012/05/08 16:12]  Roxie Marten: we are people with the same feelings and concerns
[2012/05/08 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: ok, I cannot disagree with that :)=
[2012/05/08 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Those who don’t, don’t.
[2012/05/08 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: who is this ‘we’ you speak of, Roxie?
[2012/05/08 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s the Queen of England, Extie; she always says ‘we.’
[2012/05/08 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “We are not amused.”
[2012/05/08 16:12]  Roxie Marten: me I AM PWD!
[2012/05/08 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Wheelchair access works for more than wheechairs. It is great for skateboarders and out of shape people too!
[2012/05/08 16:13]  Roxie Marten: PErson Wilth Disabilty
[2012/05/08 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Right…. If there’s a cure, then it doesn’t make sense to mandate all these societal accommodations. And if those accommodations go away, then it becomes impractical not to get the cure, even though you *theoretically* can opt not to get it.
[2012/05/08 16:13]  Roxie Marten: Going to be truthful, this discussion is starting to piss me off
[2012/05/08 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Hmm?
[2012/05/08 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: in general?
[2012/05/08 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt everyone has some kind of disability. A person who has zero disability is perfect. Who can honestly say they know anybody who is perfect?
[2012/05/08 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What exactly is the point of ire, Roxie?
[2012/05/08 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: yes do tell, Roxie:)
[2012/05/08 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, you’ve hit the point really
[2012/05/08 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I have?
[2012/05/08 16:14]  Roxie Marten: Taling about us like we not people more like you trying to figure out what do with the over population of cats
[2012/05/08 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh there’s an interesting point…. How do you measure disability, and compared to what? What if we have enhanced people, then do “normal” people come to be regarded as “disabled”?
[2012/05/08 16:15]  Roxie Marten: er Talking about us
[2012/05/08 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent point, Zo.
[2012/05/08 16:15]  Roxie Marten: You all do know there are times when “cure” is worse than the diease
[2012/05/08 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s the underlying assumption behind collectized solutions, Roxie. How do figure out what to do with people, like they are cats or resources.
[2012/05/08 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Normal” just means what it means: a statistical term
[2012/05/08 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Another reason why I think it should be a matter of individual rights, decision making and so forth.
[2012/05/08 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Roxie: indeed !
[2012/05/08 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Interesting. Would it be possible to talk about solving a set of problems associated with a disability without offending the people who have that disability? We do not mean to imply THEY are the problem. Only…only that the disability can CAUSE problems for some people.
[2012/05/08 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If someone wants to opt to use the new, developing technology, great. If not, not. If someone wants to have ramps in his mall, fine; if not, fine too.
[2012/05/08 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Otherwise, it is management of human resources, not people being involved
[2012/05/08 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn thinks Extie has hit the nail of the head; I’m thinking Roxie has
[2012/05/08 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would even go further, Extie. The whole word “disability” has a social meaning, too: “unable to fully function in this current society”. But that has little to do with physical/mental states of the individual; more about certain expectations that the society has about each and every individual. And this changes over time.
[2012/05/08 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Technology can create disability. There was no illiteracy before the invention of books.
[2012/05/08 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: I for one think the Americans with Disabilities Act requiring access to all buildings is a great thing. The libertarian idea fails miserably in creating a friendly environment for ALL citizens.
[2012/05/08 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. Zo’s example. Imagine we get some kind of cheap bionic ‘enhancements+. “Normal” suddenly means: “all people with those enhancements”
[2012/05/08 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like mmmh — “Normal” means “everybody has a mobile phone (or two)
[2012/05/08 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 20 years ago, “having a mobile phone” was certainly not “normal”
[2012/05/08 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Today, if you’ve lost your mobile phone, you’re technologically impaired
[2012/05/08 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The libertarian idea was nicely expressed by Ayn Rand when someone asked her at a discussion, “Who would take care of the janitors in your system?” She replied, “The janitors would.” Same thing applies to the so-called “disabled.”
[2012/05/08 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m deliberately exaggerating the point, of course
[2012/05/08 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be stupid to put blind people and people without mobile phone sin the same group 😛
[2012/05/08 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘when I lost my blackberry, it was like I lost a part of my mind’
[2012/05/08 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Gwyn, in a collectivised society which tries to help “all” people, there has to be norms, and new advancements would make for new norms.
[2012/05/08 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But… what I meant is… “disabled” is not just “physically/psychologically disabled”, but also depends on what the society expects
[2012/05/08 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We don’t live in a collectivised society, Rhi, but we sometimes behave as if we did 🙂
[2012/05/08 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It used to be that if you had a cell phone, you’d get stopped by the cops–as only drug dealers have cell phones. Now, if you don’t have a cell phone, you get stopped by the cops, because *everyone* has a cell phone. Why don’t you? What are you up to?
[2012/05/08 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: The Americans with Disabilities Act was intended to solve a problem that’s hard to solve any other way. But our topic tonight assumes other ways become available, then it may have to be reevaluated.
[2012/05/08 16:21]  Roxie Marten: Why try to pound everyone into a perfect cookie cutter shape
[2012/05/08 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: re: my example that in my country you’re not allowed to pay taxes if you don’t own a computer and Internet access. The State “assumes” that everybody has a computer with Internet access.
[2012/05/08 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yes, good example
[2012/05/08 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Roxie: there you go. That’s exactly it!
[2012/05/08 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I’d just not pay taxes and when asked why, would say, well, no computer. Sounds like a great way to not pay your taxes
[2012/05/08 16:22]  Roxie Marten: reminds me if LIfe of Brian “Yes we all are individuals”
[2012/05/08 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Well self-actualization is a very individualistic state. Perfection need not mean one standard for everybody. We can all strive to achieve our own personal vision of perfection.
[2012/05/08 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, of course, if they gave me a computer, internet access, enough memory for the latest tax sofetware? Cool.
[2012/05/08 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: nope — if you don’t pay taxes, you get arrested AND fined for not owning a computer 😉
[2012/05/08 16:23]  Callipygian Christensen: What happens when the technology not only removes whtever handicaop, but provides ‘exceptional’ ability in that area..do non-disabled people get to elect to enhance their ability level too?
[2012/05/08 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, you can “get” computers and Internet access “somewhere”…. even if it’s at the tax office
[2012/05/08 16:23]  Roxie Marten: This attempt “cure” is really out of compassion or the fact people get uncomfortable around the disabled
[2012/05/08 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: In that case, Calli we are well into the transhuman era.
[2012/05/08 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that has multiple possible answers, Roxie….
[2012/05/08 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not that black-or-white!
[2012/05/08 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hmm, so let me get this straight? If you’re too poor to own a computer, instead of giving you one, which costs, what $2000, Portugal will slap you in prision, get you 3 meals a day, job training, all for $35,000 a year? heh. and people wonder why Europe has a debt problem and needs austerity
[2012/05/08 16:24]  Roxie Marten: Acutaly I am more enabled with my wheelchair than you are on two feet. I go faster and further on wheels
[2012/05/08 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaha Rhi
[2012/05/08 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually I don’t think that anyone can get *arrested* for owing money, but they can certainly be fined 😉
[2012/05/08 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Must be a hell of a wheelchair if that is true.
[2012/05/08 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A friend of mine was going to be put in prision in California for non payment of child support; he was on SSI himself. He pointed out to the dA that if he was in prison, they would be housing, feeding and clothing him *and* his kid. They dropped the charges.
[2012/05/08 16:25]  Roxie Marten: ext:made of titanium weighs 23 pounds and my legs are shot but my arms are still working
[2012/05/08 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: California: what a wonderful state! 🙂
[2012/05/08 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Titanium? All you need is a motor and gun turrets and you’red loaded for bear
[2012/05/08 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pfft 🙂
[2012/05/08 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, more sensible than Portugal in this case. lol
[2012/05/08 16:25]  Roxie Marten: a friend beat jail when started ticking off all this health problems and they county would have to take care of him
[2012/05/08 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: All joking aside I have no doubt that one day walking aids like robotic legs will be so great they absolutely will make human legs seem very weak.
[2012/05/08 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so, Rhi —… I totally agree
[2012/05/08 16:26]  Roxie Marten: rhi:my son has threatened to put a motorcycle engine on it LOL
[2012/05/08 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Roxie, let him. That would be fun
[2012/05/08 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Roxie… 🙂
[2012/05/08 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can see the stares now as you tool down the interstate.
[2012/05/08 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but yes, I suppose iot would be fun, even though dangerous!
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: three minutes left folks..
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Life is dangerous. I hear they might make visors for the blind mandatory and the side effects? Sheesh.
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Roxie Marten: well um I live in a town with hills and I passed a car one night
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Roxie, awesome!
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Go, Roxie!
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I have seen a few documentaries on practical, commercial exoskeletons… there are not many, but this will come also sooner than anyone expected. Sooner than household robots!
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow Roxie….
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Prosthetic legs can be *very* fast. –> http://whatsortsofpeople.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/aimeemullinsbeachshot3.jpg
[2012/05/08 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s…. impressive
[2012/05/08 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Nooooo I want a household robot!
[2012/05/08 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, yes, they took an ex-astronaut, a man barely alive, gave him two prosthetic legs and he could run 60 miles an hour.
[2012/05/08 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can get them in Japan 🙂
[2012/05/08 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Er, or was that just fiction?
[2012/05/08 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha!!
[2012/05/08 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, they’re thinking of making them mandatory; one at least, more if you can afford them.
[2012/05/08 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: OK closing statements…Anyone?
[2012/05/08 16:29]  Roxie Marten: 6 millon man meets the 50 dollar woman (film we made in high school)
[2012/05/08 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I never could figure out how his non-bionic spine could withstand the stress.
[2012/05/08 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Erm, closing statements…
[2012/05/08 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “There is no one as blind as he who refuses to see.”
[2012/05/08 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): May be relevant in a way.
[2012/05/08 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: I like that, Rhi.
[2012/05/08 16:30]  Roxie Marten: I think the idea of adaptive techology is great but it has to be at everyone’s own speed. for myself before I got the chair it took me 2 years to admit I Needed one
[2012/05/08 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I finish with the opening statement. In 10 years, we’ll probably get much better and cheaper eye implants than self.driving cars, mostly due to lobbies that don’t want self-driving cars.
[2012/05/08 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
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