THINKERS MAY 01 2012: CAUSE AND EFFECT

Extropia DaSilva: welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/05/01 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is all about causation…
[2012/05/01 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: The past affects the future but the future cannot affect the past. How certain can we be that this is indeed the case?
[2012/05/01 15:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And Hamlet made this complaint via a viewer, I bet. “Don’t criticize the farmer with your mouth full.”
[2012/05/01 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I had random thoughts about that, Extie, and some of them center on our underlying metaphysical assumptions–like the past is immutable, so we have to move on.
[2012/05/01 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: Times Arrow goes one way.
[2012/05/01 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I wrote a story where a time traveller arranged the assisination of JFK; changed the world completely–to the one we experience
[2012/05/01 15:33]  Shorahmin Femto: Well, “When I was 10, my life was strongly infuenced by my anticipation of the future.”
[2012/05/01 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That would be a case of backward causation
[2012/05/01 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Does times arrow point one way?
[2012/05/01 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: More than a few physicists have puzzled over why we have an “arrow of time” at all.
[2012/05/01 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, there’s a weak and a strong sense of the future affecting the past. Orwell’s–“He who controls the present controls the past; he who controls the past controls the future.” That sense. And then the one where you have backwards causation
[2012/05/01 15:34]  darcon Xue: what if a people from the future comes and left time capsule to us discover?
[2012/05/01 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Most of the laws of physics appear to be perfectly reversible.
[2012/05/01 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): darcon, maye they did–velcro, stealth technology. Like the series the 4004, where they came from the future
[2012/05/01 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Not many people realise the law of entropy is symetric with respect to time. In other words, we should equally expect more disorder in the past as well as in the future.
[2012/05/01 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: not really Zo, the universe is expanding and accelerating, there will be no big crunch 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s not totally nailed down, Ivy. 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: No one has yet shown that quantum effects apply to the macro world. That is why we still have Relativity…..
[2012/05/01 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: pretty damn nailed by now actually
[2012/05/01 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, it takes 10X as much matter than we perceive to make for a big crunch, but it also takes the same amount of dark matter to account for the curvature of space, galaxies not falling apart, etc.
[2012/05/01 15:36]  Shorahmin Femto: Read Sean Carroll’s book “From Eternity to Here”
[2012/05/01 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: what’s not nailed down is exactly why it happens (dark energy)
[2012/05/01 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: but redshift doesn’t lie 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:36]  darcon Xue: I think past and future is hapening right now.
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, it’s God’s will, of course; same as what gravity was for Newton
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Shorahmin Femto: Actually the Law of Entropy is the one thing that is not Symetric
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Dark energy appears to have switched on at some point. This suggests a way to switch it off, which our future descendents may do in order to engineer an omega point.
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Ivy says redshift doesn’t lie. Extie may have a different idea bout that? 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: It is, Shor.
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Shora, it can be with parallel time tracks.
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Ana!
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Anastasia Leleu: Hi everybody!!! 😀 😀 😀
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Hi:)
[2012/05/01 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So if the future affected the past, would it be “our” time track that it affects?
[2012/05/01 15:38]  Shorahmin Femto: The whole point of entropy is that the past MUST have had less entropy
[2012/05/01 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In my story, reality completely changed–to our present reality. That is one way the future can affect the past
[2012/05/01 15:38]  Shorahmin Femto: it is the definition of Past
[2012/05/01 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shora, entropy also breaks down at the subatomic level, as the 1st law of TD does at the macrolevel, to explain the accelertiion of the universe
[2012/05/01 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, if physics is reversible, it implies that the future is just as “fixed” as the past. It’s all one continuum. Past, present and future are only an illusion anyhow, right?
[2012/05/01 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: if physics was perfectly reversible then we wouldn’t really be here
[2012/05/01 15:39]  darcon Xue: there is only now
[2012/05/01 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, well, if you believe Augustine–the argument though is that the past no longer exists; the future is not yet in existence, and the present is the infinestimal border between the past and future. If we start talking causality, that changes that
[2012/05/01 15:39]  Shorahmin Femto: everything in physics is reversable, except entropy. This all started with Boltzman
[2012/05/01 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: all the matter should have annihilated with anti matter at the bang
[2012/05/01 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t know who Augustine is. I know who Einstein is.
[2012/05/01 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: No the past only has less entropy because the universe is expanding from past to future or crunching from future to past. This increases gravity which reverses entropy. But there is no law saying entropy MUST be less in the past. The law simply says disorder is the probable state at any time.
[2012/05/01 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Einstein’s theory implied the rality of the future and past Zoe.
[2012/05/01 15:40]  Anastasia Leleu: YEs, but Agustine saw the present and an instant, instead of as interval…
[2012/05/01 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: No time travel stories are actually very logically consistent, because they don’t account for future time travelers interfering with whatever they do. Time travel is a fun idea, but it is actually just imagining that we are in the present with past actors……
[2012/05/01 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: As far as I can tell, increasing entropy is just an artifact of the expanding universe, and thus the ever-decreasing energy density of the universe. But I could be wrong.
[2012/05/01 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ana, yes, he had no notion of duree. But I’m just pointing out the reasoning behind Time’s bein an illusion
[2012/05/01 15:41]  Shorahmin Femto: the law says that the arrow of time is enormously likely to move in one direction. It is the Boltzman Brain argument all over agaqin
[2012/05/01 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: the multiverse deals with time travel. YOu do not enter the past but a parallel universe where everything is the same up until the point you arrive.
[2012/05/01 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, well, if in all cases, the past is immutable, then the time travller’s, if they affect the past would be faced with future TT’s who undid that
[2012/05/01 15:41]  Anastasia Leleu: An illusion as in we can’t really REALLY know anything about it, but using it as a way to approach reality, Kant like?…
[2012/05/01 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: So, constantly increasing entropy means more and more information is available to us. Bits form easily and die hard.
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: wow this discussion is like a wild ride through the most speculative of science.
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Anastasia Leleu: (By the way, please meet my friend Scatter Muni)..
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: quite – “nothing is unstable” 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes, the notion of parallell time tracks preserves entropy and the arrow of time, in spite of there being pesky things like neutrinos, and apparent contradictions of the 1st law
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: so says Kurzweil’s law of time and chaos, Zo.
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: I think because mathematics can use the time variable in a reverse way, some take from that the idea that time travel is possible. But then again, mathematics is limited to only a few variables before it all falls apart.
[2012/05/01 15:42]  darcon Xue: we can verify it in our dreams when we brigs to this realitymemories from other realities
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: what does entropy have to do with effect preceeding cause?
[2012/05/01 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Really? I didn’t know that. (about Kurzweil)
[2012/05/01 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh, Zo. It is all in ‘age of spiritual machines’.
[2012/05/01 15:43]  Anastasia Leleu: Yes, Scarp, but…. it is plau sible, since Mathematics is supposed to have some sort of connection with reality…
[2012/05/01 15:43]  Pip Torok: _is_ entropy reversible?
[2012/05/01 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, yes, but interestingly enough, when you use those equations to project backwards, you don’t get symmetry. You get changes. Implying that if we ran the picture backwards, we wouuld not get the same results as if we then ran it forwards again. In other words, changing the past is implied by the equations that explain the expansion of the unvierse
[2012/05/01 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: yes.
[2012/05/01 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I just read about the asymmetry of time’s arrow.
[2012/05/01 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Entropy is a statistical probability. There is a tiny but definite chance that a cup can unsmash.
[2012/05/01 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: All this new information being generated is what creates the impression of past-to-future causality. Because the vast majority of cause-and-effect sequences we see are bringing new data into existence.
[2012/05/01 15:45]  Anastasia Leleu: Have anyone heard of Ucronia or somethign like it?…
[2012/05/01 15:45]  Shorahmin Femto: Again, one well argued side of all this is in Sean Carroll’s book, “From Eternity to Here” Much more science than speculation. And when he speculates, he warns the reader.
[2012/05/01 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: when the universe is all run down to total disorder and there is no way to measure time passing, all will eventually be reversed in one gigantically improbable event.
[2012/05/01 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: Entropy is the property of matter that seeks maximum randomness. So by definition cannot be reversed.
[2012/05/01 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: But it’s all statistical. Effect-and-cause sequences can still happen, they just get lost in the noise. It’s like looking for a few black grains of sand scattered on a white beach.
[2012/05/01 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, as the curvature of the unvierse, and it’s accelaration, given the cosmological constant, imply small violations of the 1st law, there are instances of low energy particles giving energy to high energy prticles, in violation of the 2nd. But laws of thermodynamics are probabalistic when viewed from QM perspective
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, good point. And again, if we are thinking the future influencing the past, maybe it has happened, only the effect is what we see around us.
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Anastasia Leleu: In the end, science and speculation are intimately related… and both of them attached to imagination…
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Laborious. YOu look different:)
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi lab
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Shorahmin Femto: The universe has been found to be flat over 13.6 billion light years
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: the universe is flat (aside from local curvature caused by gravity wells) and there is no cosmological constant anymore
[2012/05/01 15:46]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Hi
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, how come you never say *that* to me?
[2012/05/01 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Let me offer up one of my favorite thought experiments on this subject….
[2012/05/01 15:47]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): slow resing in but it came in finaly
[2012/05/01 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Because you never change.
[2012/05/01 15:47]  Shorahmin Femto: any curvature is mere local fluctuation
[2012/05/01 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shora, yes, well, the locality in this case is the space-time continuum.
[2012/05/01 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hey! I change. I changed my hair style and I’m barefoot now
[2012/05/01 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Let’s say we have an unstable isotope, like the one Schrodinger wanted to use in his cat experiment…. any atom that’s prone to randomly decay will due….
[2012/05/01 15:47]  Shorahmin Femto: but it’s flat
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: what is meant by flat?
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Since nobody could actually answer the question in the given topic, that wild romp through specualative science was an obvious thing to occur. So much about knowing what might happen in the future… haha
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: will do, even… But you can’t predict when it’ll happen. It seems to be completely spontaneous, an event without a cause.
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Shorahmin Femto: and The CC has been measured quite well and it isn’t zero
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Shor, well, yes, it’s flat. It’s curved but at a zero extent.
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Just like a line in geometry is still a curve, or a 180 degree angle
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Gotta go. See you next time.
[2012/05/01 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: The universe could be a torus, because on a torus the angles of a triangle add up 10 180 degress and parallel lines never meet. So it ios defined as a flat space. This would enable the end of spacetime to connect with the beginnng. You know the game Asteroids? That was set in a torus geometry.
[2012/05/01 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: No acronyms please….
[2012/05/01 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: But if you run the timeline backwards, and watch the fission products coming back together and colliding to form the atom — then suddenly it becomes obvious why the decay event happened when and where it did. You have a cause, it just is after the effect!
[2012/05/01 15:49]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): is this about this http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html and time ripples into the past?
[2012/05/01 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, interesting. It wouuld still mean, though, that if it maintained these flatness throughout time, as uniformity requires, to maintain that hyperflatness to flatness, and the cosmological constant, we would have to have 1 hydrogen atom per trillion miles per year popping in
[2012/05/01 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lab, I think tht’s the article, or one of them, I read
[2012/05/01 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: what does background radiation say about that? 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They used the equations of time expansion, which should be symmetrical–yuou know, you run the unvierse back, it should be in reverse, and didn’t get an exact reversal.
[2012/05/01 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You go back in time, you change the past.
[2012/05/01 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: The background radiation and expanding universe we measure is compatible with only three shapes. A torus/flat space; a ball; a pringle. All measurements favour the 1st as the shape of the universe.
[2012/05/01 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: an electron moving back in time is a positron moving forward in time 😛
[2012/05/01 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah Ivy, that is what Feynman diagrams taught.
[2012/05/01 15:51]  Shorahmin Femto: thank you Extie
[2012/05/01 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I suspect it’s not possible. Past and future are so tightly interwoven, that there’s very little wiggle room to change anything. Besides, I’m not even sure that “changing the future” or “changing the past” can even have any meaning unless you have some other viewpoint outside of the spacetime continuum itself.
[2012/05/01 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, yes, hadn’t thought of that. Do neutrinos have a charge. An election has mass, though, so it doesn’t go back in time.
[2012/05/01 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: good point, Zo!
[2012/05/01 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): zo, yes, most time travel stories imply an “outside” perspective. Only Asimov seemed aware of that, with his “End of Eternity” The temporal engineers were outside of time.
[2012/05/01 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: afaik all particles have an antimatter counteparts, including neutral ones
[2012/05/01 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In Eternity, in other words
[2012/05/01 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Of course we can also speculate that the past and future are only illusions. And that now is the only real thing. Very Eastern philosophy….. heh
[2012/05/01 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: what about the photon? What is its antiparticle?
[2012/05/01 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: I might suggest that “now” is the unreal thing. 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scrp, back to Augustine, but if we talk about causality, then tiime becomes “real.” As real as anything else, anyway
[2012/05/01 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: (( just googled, they are called – very creatively – antineutrinos 🙂 ))
[2012/05/01 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, lol
[2012/05/01 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually, given the speed at which perception and thought occur, we should say the PAST is the only real thing because by the time we realize it, the event is over already.
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Confident AO – Preloaded ZHAO II: 5% memory free
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Extropia’s Antenna: Touch me for a control menu
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, please, tht is another topic, although related
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Extie!
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Anastasia Leleu: Free will is such an obscure concept for me…
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: uncrashed Extie!
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: all is gray..
[2012/05/01 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: ah there you all are!
[2012/05/01 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: I suppose you could say there are multiple timelines in the sense that there are *fictional* timelines that we can imagine. Fictions can be useful, just as virtual worlds can be useful.
[2012/05/01 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hmmm. Heraclitus said all is fire, Thales said all is water, and now, Extie is saying all is grey. A coincidence? I think not
[2012/05/01 15:58]  Object: Hi Extropia DaSilva! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[2012/05/01 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: See? Hamlet was right, Imprudence didn’t crash, therefore all other viewers suck!
[2012/05/01 15:58]  darcon Xue: 🙂
[2012/05/01 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): IIMprudence allows for RLV, and can load on my desktop, but no mesh.
[2012/05/01 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: I suppose I could even speculate that fiction has a big role in human intelligence….
[2012/05/01 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: SL only crashed because my Internet went down for a bit.
[2012/05/01 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: fiction > reality
[2012/05/01 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I think that is evident, Zo.
[2012/05/01 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the reality of alternative time tracks is a way to preserve tiime’s arrow, explain why it is that we can generate changes in the past from the future and not see them (although your idea of them being lost in the noise is a good one).
[2012/05/01 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We preserve entropy even.
[2012/05/01 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: the difference between fiction and reality is that the former is actually made by the Intelligent Design 😀
[2012/05/01 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: Well the main tenet of science is that, if it appears to be true, it is true by definition. (but only tentatively…. heh)
[2012/05/01 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: It appears to be true that the lady is sawn in half…
[2012/05/01 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: if it quacks like a duck…
[2012/05/01 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: no we can show that the lady wasn’t sawn in half!
[2012/05/01 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Damn you Penn and Teller!
[2012/05/01 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, only if that “appearance” is confirmed by the senses.
[2012/05/01 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: yes our course
[2012/05/01 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: by the senses and logical induction or deduction
[2012/05/01 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, but then we’re moving away from appearance, unless you are using appearance to mean the world around us, as opposed to higher reality
[2012/05/01 16:03]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): I’ll stick with a quantum universe and extra dimentions http://youtu.be/l3Up5tPtkK8 . Oh and string theory that is pointing to M-theory and split off universe http://phys.org/news/2011-11-astronomers-pristine-clouds-primordial-gas.html
[2012/05/01 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Hasn’t string theory started to fall out of favor? I mean, it’s been around for a long time, but it doesn’t seem to be testable…
[2012/05/01 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh goodness, string theory
[2012/05/01 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: http://xkcd.com/171/
[2012/05/01 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lab, well, it does have the potential of making everyting fit coherently; the only disadvantage of string theoary is that since it explains everything, it explains nothing and it can be verified
[2012/05/01 16:04]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): the 2 links suport and yes it’s being built out some by some people
[2012/05/01 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: String theory has gone in and out of fashion since the 1950s.
[2012/05/01 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: I don’t necessarily accept the term ‘higher reality’. It is too much like a Platonic Idea….
[2012/05/01 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha! I like that, Ivy. 😀
[2012/05/01 16:04]  Scarp Godenot: ideal
[2012/05/01 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: A while ago there was a serfeit of books trying to denounce string theory as unscientific due to its inability to be falsified by experiment.
[2012/05/01 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, I accept the appearance around me of real. The sofas, the chair, the trees, the intelligent ocelot. All are real to me.
[2012/05/01 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The idea that there is something beyond them–that’s iffy
[2012/05/01 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma isn’t an ocelot today…
[2012/05/01 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Obrien’s reality. ‘If I believe I float and you believe, it happens. REality exists only in the collective mind’.
[2012/05/01 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo just proved that Rhi’s reality isn’t real 😀
[2012/05/01 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, you look like your old self, but I had to inject some fantasy in to make my point
[2012/05/01 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: People love to generalize by taking the quantum mechanics world into the macro world, but we just aren’t there yet. That is why there are two incongruent theories to this very day.
[2012/05/01 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s an ocelot in disguise!
[2012/05/01 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, exactly!
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OMG, we are all human today. How’d that happen?
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: String theory unites the two, I think.
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m not human
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: look at my eyes
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: !
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that’s it’s ambition
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: nor am I.
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: There have been a series of cool experiments bringing quantum effects up to larger scales, though.
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unitfied string theory. lol
[2012/05/01 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, really? That would be cool.
[2012/05/01 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I want to be at two places at once, to be able to travel to the future and back, and to remotely influence.
[2012/05/01 16:08]  Anastasia Leleu: (Sorry, everyone, I must leave… will try to come back in a few, if possible, very interesting topic)…
[2012/05/01 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: there were those milimeter scale entangled diamonds
[2012/05/01 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: so yes
[2012/05/01 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wait a second, I can do that as a Tibetan nun…
[2012/05/01 16:09]  darcon Xue: you can stop wanting Rhia. You already are 🙂
[2012/05/01 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): darcon, I know; I just realized that. But that’s because of the non-locality of my mind.
[2012/05/01 16:09]  darcon Xue: 🙂
[2012/05/01 16:10]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): One way to look at the topic question is did the shark make the movie? http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/05/wicked-lasers-shark/
[2012/05/01 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: sharks with lasers are old stuff
[2012/05/01 16:11]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): thats the point
[2012/05/01 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: it doesn’t count unless it’s a guy on a dinosaur on a rocket shark with a laser
[2012/05/01 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, Ivy, everyone knows that sharks are older than lasers
[2012/05/01 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: Laborious made me read an article about a laser equipt shark! haha
[2012/05/01 16:12]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): did this shark influince the past and it seem’s like not for a backwards in time and ripples if there are some that show
[2012/05/01 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: ..we all done?
[2012/05/01 16:14]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): think so it seemed to die
[2012/05/01 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think I can top laser sharks.
[2012/05/01 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): no, we’re just wondering whether lab aid ‘ripples’ or ‘nipples.’
[2012/05/01 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *said
[2012/05/01 16:14]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): P
[2012/05/01 16:14]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): LOL
[2012/05/01 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: So I will conclude that there is no evidence for the present influencing the past. Even the quantum stuff is ex post facto evidence. I’m sticking with Times Arrow! heh
[2012/05/01 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: well I will wait five minutes and if it does not reignite by then I am calling an end.
[2012/05/01 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: What about my ion decay example, Scarp?
[2012/05/01 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I will conclude by thinking that it seems to happen all the time, but it is perceived as noise, like Zoe said, and that with a little tweaking of our world view, like String Theory, we can preserve time’s arrow, entropy, and have time travel
[2012/05/01 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: That is thought of after the fact, Zo
[2012/05/01 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: I can assure you, I thought of that before we even started discussing! 😀
[2012/05/01 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: heh
[2012/05/01 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: well as we have conclusions I think I will say this is the end:)
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