THINKERS APRIL 10 2012: INTERNET TROLLS

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/04/10 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we ask…
[2012/04/10 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: MUST WE PUT UP WITH INTERNET TROLLS?
[2012/04/10 15:32]  darcon Xue: “I have given you nothing shameful, least of all your body and its functions.”
[2012/04/10 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: This question was partly inspired by the jail sentence of a blogger who posted hateful comments about that footballer who had a heart attack.
[2012/04/10 15:33]  Melody (melody.trefusis): I think we should point,and laugh at Internet trolls
[2012/04/10 15:33]  Chraeloos: I’m not sure what they think they get out of trolling…
[2012/04/10 15:34]  darcon Xue: companionship
[2012/04/10 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it always clear when trolling is trolling?
[2012/04/10 15:34]  Chraeloos: companionship?
[2012/04/10 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: This is one of those circumstances where you can’t define the edge of Trolling and opinion. So there is no real way to regulate it without cutting off speech freedom.
[2012/04/10 15:34]  Chraeloos: Art, very true
[2012/04/10 15:34]  darcon Xue: yes, companionship 🙂
[2012/04/10 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: The difference is intent, but intent is something you can’t measure.
[2012/04/10 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Trolls get personal validation of their power. Getting a reaction makes them feel powerful.
[2012/04/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: Art, good point.
[2012/04/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: Extie, what do you mean “put up with them”? Not ban them?
[2012/04/10 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: I think free speech is harmed when people out to disrupt normal debates or dialogue are not dealt with. If anyone was disruptive, persistantly disruptive in this group I believe free speech is served by ejecting them.
[2012/04/10 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Experienced and competent trolls can’t really be stopped, because they can’t be traced….
[2012/04/10 15:37]  darcon Xue: I agree with you Ext
[2012/04/10 15:37]  Chraeloos: Ext, I agree, to the degree that if they aren’t being respectful. If they are being respectful while *strongly* voicing their opinion I’m not sure it’s just to eject them.
[2012/04/10 15:37]  Melody (melody.trefusis): Correct me if I am wrong. But, it seem like typical Bully mentality…. They are angry or emotionally immature people who think by making a another person feel bad about themselves.. they will feel good
[2012/04/10 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: well, no not completely stopped. If you mean getting them off the web entirely.
[2012/04/10 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh I would never ban anyone for strongly voicing any opinon that is reasonably on topic.
[2012/04/10 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would agree that the regulation of Trolls should be done locally, according to the standards of the local group, but codifying trolling as illegal is a big problem of definition.
[2012/04/10 15:38]  Chraeloos: Oh, Art, Agreed
[2012/04/10 15:38]  Melody (melody.trefusis): I think Trolls should be spoken to once,and then quickly eject,and ban
[2012/04/10 15:38]  Chraeloos: Extie, fair enough. I agree
[2012/04/10 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: I guess somebody, a moderator, has to make a judgment call.
[2012/04/10 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: “This looks to me like trolling,” and shut it down.
[2012/04/10 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Trolling is mostly a nuisance, very rarely a crime.
[2012/04/10 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree Art. I myself was once called a troll after a lengthy debate between myself and someone who is against transhumanism. I do not think of myself as a troll but he thought so.
[2012/04/10 15:40]  Chraeloos: Oh intersting Extie, so it’s about perspective, then
[2012/04/10 15:40]  Melody (melody.trefusis): I have question Trolls in the past” Why did you think that was funny?” The answers are LESS than satifying ,and came from unhappy person.
[2012/04/10 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s define a troll. A troll is different from a griefer. A troll disrupts by provoking the group against itself. A griefer just makes a lot of noise
[2012/04/10 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: I think some people are too hasty in using the troll label whenever they encounter someone with opinions they do not share.
[2012/04/10 15:41]  Chraeloos: Extie, true.
[2012/04/10 15:41]  Chraeloos: Art, so if someone only a troll if they are trolling deliberately?
[2012/04/10 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Troll in my understanding comes from trawling, where a fisherman puts out a hook and bait and drags it around till something bites.s
[2012/04/10 15:42]  Chraeloos: Hi Shorahmin!
[2012/04/10 15:42]  Shorahmin Femto: greetings all
[2012/04/10 15:42]  Chraeloos: So then a pretty effective way of not allowing it to continue is to ignore them?
[2012/04/10 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I believe a troll is someone who is not interested in better understanding for his/ her self or others, but only wants to enflame the group.
[2012/04/10 15:43]  Chraeloos: Chraeloos nods at Extie
[2012/04/10 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh hello Shor. Good to see you again.
[2012/04/10 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: ignoring trolls usually works, but ALL in the local group have to ignore it or the troll is successful.
[2012/04/10 15:43]  Chraeloos: very true Art
[2012/04/10 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I reckon so, Art. I mean, the forum I use most often gets so many new posts any that are not ignored get pushed off the front page really quickly.
[2012/04/10 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Fox News commentators are trolls. 😛
[2012/04/10 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say that a primary characteristic of a troll is that they don’t really believe what they are saying. They just take whatever tact provokes the biggest reaction.
[2012/04/10 15:44]  Chraeloos: Zo, lol!
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Chraeloos: Art, then in the same way playing devils advocate (which I do often at my own events) could be considered trolling
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m serious. They’ll say things they know aren’t true, and get into fights with each other, just to stir people up — because that’s good for ratings, and ratings pay the bills.
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Chraeloos: Hi Archibald!
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: problem is, I just *hate* misinformation so any time someone posts something not factually correct I have to reply to correct it.
[2012/04/10 15:45]  darcon Xue: welcome love 🙂
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Chraeloos: Yeah Zo
[2012/04/10 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Zo, I think you are right about that.
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Chraeloos: Hi Mira
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): hi! greetings
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Miralee Munro: Miralee Munro smiles
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Miralee Munro: Hello everyone.
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello!
[2012/04/10 15:45]  Miralee Munro: (rezzing)
[2012/04/10 15:46]  Miralee Munro: Zo!
[2012/04/10 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Miralee, hi! It’s been A While.
[2012/04/10 15:46]  Miralee Munro: It has indeed.
[2012/04/10 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Nice outfit. 🙂
[2012/04/10 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah almost like a harlequin
[2012/04/10 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: The so called ‘hate speech’ laws are on thin ice just as I think anti troll laws would be.
[2012/04/10 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: There used to be groups of people on the internet who had the goal of destroying certain chat communities. They were very successful at doing this. But it couldn’t be stopped, because no one could track them down.
[2012/04/10 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m thinking of the USENET
[2012/04/10 15:50]  Miralee Munro: I don’t know much about trolling, but I’ve just started reading “Julian Assange – The Unauthorised Autobiography” and it would seem that is what they used to do, (if trolling is ‘scoping’ the internet for useful information)?
[2012/04/10 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Is that why Usenet . . . um, not died as such, but became as irrelevant as it is today?
[2012/04/10 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think so Zobeid, that and Yahoo Groups killed it.
[2012/04/10 15:51]  Melody (melody.trefusis): I avoid USENET.. Its drama central
[2012/04/10 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: I remember Usenet had some pretty amazing net.kooks.
[2012/04/10 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yahoo groups is like usenet, but more regulatable.
[2012/04/10 15:51]  darcon Xue: This article talkes about the use of robots in internet for trolling and making opnion http://www.monbiot.com/2011/02/23/robot-wars/
[2012/04/10 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think Facebook is killing most chat groups nowadays.
[2012/04/10 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: It is?
[2012/04/10 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: People only have so much time
[2012/04/10 15:52]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): :O
[2012/04/10 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma still is not on FB, by the way. :/
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): hello rhiannon
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, Arisia
[2012/04/10 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: I still follow a couple of ListServ email groups, but they are dying.
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Never can find this place on my own; almost had it this time
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi ARch
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Arisia Vita: my pleasure
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): triumph arch?
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi!
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Chraeloos: Hey Rhia!
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): lulz
[2012/04/10 15:53]  Miralee Munro: Hi Rhia!
[2012/04/10 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I see you landed right in front of me so I wouldn’t miss you this time. 😀
[2012/04/10 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Maralee
[2012/04/10 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Rhi!
[2012/04/10 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): zo, lol; thank Ari for that
[2012/04/10 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Extie
[2012/04/10 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: so anyway, Rhi, other newcomers we are debating..
[2012/04/10 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: MUST WE PUT UP WITH INTERNET TROLLS?
[2012/04/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A late hi to all
[2012/04/10 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, seeing that I’ve been considered one for having an intelligent discussion, I would say yes
[2012/04/10 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Gwyn!
[2012/04/10 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn.
[2012/04/10 15:56]  Chocolate bunny (eatable): whispers: Breaks into chocolate pieces as You bite the hollow, rich, and creamy chocolate bunny’s ear.
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Miralee Munro: Isn’t the internet the ‘ultimate freedom’? A great new frontier?
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Everyone shows up halfway through the discussion. Is this the new “fashionably late”?
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have been considered ‘one’…. what, Rhi? Intellectual? Philosopher? 🙂
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Zo… I feel ashamed
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Chraeloos: Hey Gwyn!
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A troll
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: better late, Gwyn than ‘the late Gwyn’.
[2012/04/10 15:57]  Miralee Munro: Sorry Zobeid … I just IM’d darcon when I came online and asked me to join him.
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie — true!
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Miralee Munro: Miralee Munro shuts up now.
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The question is–must we put up with internet trolls. And my answer is yes, lest we reject someone that everyone wants to hear
[2012/04/10 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: We should define what a Troll is, I’m thinking
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Darcon is now a girl!
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What. Rhi? You’ve been accused of being a troll just because you are intelligent??
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Can it be defined?
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The world is definitely coming to an end.
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yep; in fact, just came from a sim like that
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn wonders what people discuss in that sim…
[2012/04/10 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So we have to put up with trolls for the same reason we have to put up with heretics
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): anarchism. lol
[2012/04/10 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Troll = Anyone who disagrees with me and won’t shut up! haha
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: AH, heretics are nice 🙂
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, exactly!
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Art — no no
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I knew someone who was accused of being a troll by three regular commuters who passed daily over his bridge to get to a field to eat grass…
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but this is the problem with repression
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Funny, Extie 😉
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, lol!
[2012/04/10 15:59]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): troll is one that have some dificulties in understanding what a open view is
[2012/04/10 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem is definitely a troll by Art’s definition.
[2012/04/10 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh that’s a quite different definition — I have never heard that one Archibald
[2012/04/10 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: almost, but not quite 😉
[2012/04/10 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Arch, or vice versa. A troll understands what an open view is, but the ones who accuse him of being a troll do have that difficulty
[2012/04/10 16:00]  Chraeloos: I’ve got to get going, thanks so much Extie, everyone. Take care!
[2012/04/10 16:00]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): well…it my basic line for trolls
[2012/04/10 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh in that case 90% of the population are trolls?
[2012/04/10 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well if you want to find out what a Troll is, consult the experts at Google! http://tiny.cc/djnkcw
[2012/04/10 16:01]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): nowadasy?
[2012/04/10 16:01]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): offcourse Art crash
[2012/04/10 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn belatedly says “Hi” and “bye” to Chraeloos
[2012/04/10 16:02]  Miralee Munro: Miralee Munro excuses herself
[2012/04/10 16:02]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): who have seen pictures of trolls?
[2012/04/10 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Oh, Lem is totally a troll sometimes… haha
[2012/04/10 16:03]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): do trolls have friends?
[2012/04/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Art has been talking about slippery slopes and gray areas but even if we acknowledge there may be instances where the line between acceptable dialogue and trolling/ hate speech is hard to draw that does not mean there are sometimes clear examples of either which laws should deal with.
[2012/04/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I mean, ok, ban someone, eject them, (and you can do that on the regular internet), but there are checks and balances. A friend of mine has a similar problem; he believes in energy medicine, remote viewing, a lot of occult stuff, but he basis his belief in experiences. When he demands people have logic and evidence for their beliefs, hje gets banned from internet discussions; comes back as a female alt.
[2012/04/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’m still sticking to the old USENET definition. Wikipedia still adheres to that: “In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.”
[2012/04/10 16:04]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): lulz
[2012/04/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ok, but the criteria for that? “Could you tell me wht your evidence is for your belief?” “You troll!” Ban
[2012/04/10 16:05]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): believing in all it is written in internet could be a act of passive trolling
[2012/04/10 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: If I were Queen/dictator I would make laws regarding actions, not speech. Unless a conspiracy that led to an action is involved.
[2012/04/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Arch, but here’s the difficulty–on the internet speech *is* action and the actions you take are speech
[2012/04/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that twenty years after the term “troll” has been “invented”, it has been misapropriated by all sorts of groups.
[2012/04/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, the old meaning doesn’t say much.
[2012/04/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s a little different in sl, as you can, say, use a vomit gesture or something
[2012/04/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or perhaps the old meaning is too subtle 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: So tell us about the misappropriation, Bwyn.
[2012/04/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Rhi
[2012/04/10 16:06]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): except chat boxes like this one for example
[2012/04/10 16:07]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): internet is not and will never be a safe place for reliable information
[2012/04/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn isn’t Bwyn apparently…. haha
[2012/04/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Art I don’t know… for example, if I started discussing Britney Spears here just to make everybody angry, then I’d be trolling Thinkers. If I’d be using Britney Spears as an example inside the discussion (not that any comes to mind) and argue logically using Britney as an example, then I wouldn’t be, strictly speaking, “trolling”. I’d be boring. Pestering people. Driving them to madness. But not trolling.
[2012/04/10 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: so who gets to ban trolls? Is my decision as event holder final or is it Art whose sim this is or should it be down to a majority vote?
[2012/04/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (no, I just type slowly sometimes)
[2012/04/10 16:08]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): internet is the worst problem civilization deals with..
[2012/04/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: traditionally, the moderator bans trolls.
[2012/04/10 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok. YOu lot watch it!
[2012/04/10 16:09]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2012/04/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[2012/04/10 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, but in some groups, if you were logically using Britney Spears as an example, and showing how it related you’d be trolling or at least griefing, but if you were to point out that problems with a statistical argument to prove something, you’d be trolling in others
[2012/04/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly,… Rhi, that was what I was going to write *next*
[2012/04/10 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In those same groups, you can call someone a liar, a moral pervert, and tump their reputation, you wouldn’t be trolling or griefing, but they would if they asked you to stop
[2012/04/10 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some groups only allow “groupthink” — everything else is trolling
[2012/04/10 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t worry, Britney, they are just haters….
[2012/04/10 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Haters gonna hate. 😛
[2012/04/10 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, exactly, I’m glad Thinkrs isn’t one of those; as we all agree about who are trolls and who aren’t…er…
[2012/04/10 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the fun of it, a troll might not “hate” anyone, but just enjoy people hating each other in heated discussion 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:10]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): groupthink is a response to trolling
[2012/04/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Kurzweilai is a bit like that. Any one who insists on posting that Ray Kurzweil’s theories are horseshit is envariably labelled a troll.
[2012/04/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Rhi — don’t worry, Extie is a sweety 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:11]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): the best they could do, so they said
[2012/04/10 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say the original definition of Trolling I’m familiar with, is deliberate provocation with the intent of starting a flame war.
[2012/04/10 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, I was watching in a sim as an alt where one person was rounding denouncing me; another began to defend me, and was accused of drama and wrned he might be ejected.
[2012/04/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo did Gwyn call me a sweety?
[2012/04/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You are 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: I shall be happy all week now!
[2012/04/10 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, she did; and you are
[2012/04/10 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends, Extie. That’s the tricky bit of “trolling”. If saying that Kurzweil is just horseshit, and the intention is to get everybody heated up (we might not even believe what we’re saying about Kurzweil), then that’s trolling.
[2012/04/10 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. deliberately being provocative in order to create dissent
[2012/04/10 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, but what if your intent by doing that is to get a heated discussion, as before, everyone was asleep?
[2012/04/10 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s called facilitation
[2012/04/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If it’s part of a logical argument: “look, Kurzweil is an idiot because X and Y and Z, and X, Y, Z follow logically from arguments A, B, C”…. then that might just be rudeness,but not troling. The intention is to argue about one’s opinions.
[2012/04/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my Rhi — we’re always in sync
[2012/04/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s all about intention.
[2012/04/10 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, are you one of my alts? I’ve lost track
[2012/04/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: The troll intent isn’t heated discussion, it is destruction of the group event.
[2012/04/10 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: The person I am referring to tends to cut and paste from blog essays that attempt to debunk one or more aspects of ray’s central ideas. He rarely contributes his own thoughts to the subject.
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sometimes I wonder about that too, Rhi!
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: are those blog essays his own?
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, let’s check it out; you go to Philosophy Island, if you’re banned, then we know that you’re an alt of mine
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Right, ArtC.
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): is it crash?
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: No. Other people’s.
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, agreed.
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to do that once, Rhi!
[2012/04/10 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I quite like him as a source of material for possible refuations.
[2012/04/10 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: I like any ol nickname! haha
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: well, in an academic setting that would be just called “discussion with quotations” 😉
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): trollinghave lots of consequences…
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Sometimes heated discussion gets out of hand and has to be moderated too…. so it’s similar in that respect, but still not exactly the same thing.
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I think it should simply be a matter of behavior; if we start looking at intent? Well, then we have at least two lawyers of obfuscation and privacy to go through, we have the problem in the underdeteminacy of translation, and isn’t that policing thoughts, anyway?
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): what are the benefits to a troll?
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe that “rudeness” — deliberately doing insulting personal attacks — are valid issues for moderation 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Some like drama, aRch
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Archibald: he has a lot of FUN making others angry!
[2012/04/10 16:15]  Melody (melody.trefusis): a happiness in their failed pathentic lives
[2012/04/10 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: Remember the concept of the ‘Flame War’? Where everyone is saying F. U. to everyone else? I think that is the highest goal of Trolling.
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that’s why a GOOD troll is hard to catch!
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I do too; and I don’t like the middle school approach of some moderators–equating defedning yourself rom attack with the attack
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: I think you overstate the difficulty, Rhi. Many times trolling really is obvious, and moderators should be free to deal with it as such.
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: yes!
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): i dont get it..
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): in what way can that be a benefit?
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Archibald: only to the troll — not for anyone else
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Me too. I would have banned that person who simulated sex with Rhi last week had he not stopped when she let him know it was not acceptable. But that is griefing not trolling.
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I hear you!
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): but what??
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, sure; I think one of the purposes of alts is to balance modertors who can’t get it right
[2012/04/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Extie
[2012/04/10 16:17]  Melody (melody.trefusis): Arch, You are trying to understand a screwed mindset
[2012/04/10 16:19]  Extropia’s Antenna: Touch me for a control menu
[2012/04/10 16:19]  Confident AO – Preloaded ZHAO II: 5% memory free
[2012/04/10 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: A couple of friends and I went to a bunch of strip clubs and tried to get banned by stripping. It was EASY to get banned! haha
[2012/04/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have been banned from a merchant’s group which own stores…. I still rent space for the store from that group and pay the rent monthly. I was banned years ago! lol
[2012/04/10 16:20]  Arisia Vita: wb love
[2012/04/10 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, uh, why?
[2012/04/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Personal disagreement between the group’s owner and myself; I don’t even remember why he disagreed with me
[2012/04/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But he still accepts my monthly rent 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: I got banned ‘Permanently
[2012/04/10 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Last time i was banned, it was for askng what I was doing wrong. The guy called me an idiot, instead of answering me.
[2012/04/10 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: If any of you trolled in my absence Ivy’s blackboard will tell me!
[2012/04/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
[2012/04/10 16:21]  Object: Hi Extropia DaSilva! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[2012/04/10 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I was asking why you still pay the rent?
[2012/04/10 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: *Touches Ari’s cheek for signs of tears at the loss of his beloved Extie*
[2012/04/10 16:21]  Arisia Vita: ty
[2012/04/10 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: I got banned’Permanently’ from Sears for photographing a washing machine for a client advertisement. I was giggling all the way to the door with the security guard, who ‘put me on notice’ to never set foot in a Sears store again. It was hilarious.
[2012/04/10 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I’m not always rational 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Art
[2012/04/10 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: You troublemaker, Art.
[2012/04/10 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, so you get banned irl too?
[2012/04/10 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: A horrible punishment for anyone…..
[2012/04/10 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Me too. I was banned for asking for a meal with my coffee, so I could sit in a booth rather than on the counter
[2012/04/10 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
[2012/04/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t get why you should be banned because of that?
[2012/04/10 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Must have been a rule broken somewhere, Gwyn.
[2012/04/10 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: As a photographer in RL, I get banned all the time.
[2012/04/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Art
[2012/04/10 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: But always by some low level functionary
[2012/04/10 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not sure, either, Gwyn; I think the server was in a bad mood, and the owner took her side immediately.
[2012/04/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m smiling, but I actually know a few journalistic reporters that get banned all the time, yes
[2012/04/10 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I was gonna say, photography spooks a lot of people these days, which is a shame.
[2012/04/10 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I mean, I had just come from work, maybe I smelled bad or something
[2012/04/10 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most companies think I am a spy.
[2012/04/10 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Zo, it’s because everything ends up on Facebook sooner or later….
[2012/04/10 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zo, why we have cameras in our phones and internet uplinks
[2012/04/10 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Try ditching the dark glasses, the hat and the upturned collar on your coat, Art.
[2012/04/10 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “All the guys think she’s a spy–she’s got Betty Davis eyes.”
[2012/04/10 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most companies don’t realize their buildings are too boring to spy on…. heh
[2012/04/10 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: For some reason DSLRs with big lenses *really* set them off, as if they’re more dangerous than a pocket camera. 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, that’s more like “being banned for infringing some obscure rule”
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While *good* trolls are rare, and what they do is NOT to break any rules.
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: I wondered what the relevance was…
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So I think the what I’m seeing is that we have to put up with trolls, as otherwise, we might get hammered ourselves, but still, there is behavior that moderators should not put up with–like insults or disruptive behavior
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): good trolls?
[2012/04/10 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: I got banned from a mall for carrying a camera with a big lens last week. Photography in the mall was ‘not allowed’.
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They just let their audience THINK they must have broken a rule somewhere 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Good” in the sense of being very skilled at trolling.
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: I have to say I think the trolls are the lesser evil compared to the thought police.
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Although at PI, they promoted one of their trolls to estate manager. She’d come into a conversation, and totally disrupt it with supid jokes and comments.
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Then she got to run the place
[2012/04/10 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m agreeing with that Extie.
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, hear! hear!
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): next thing u will mention in the cuteness of the abobinable snow white man
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For example, using a fake camera inside a mall, to get stopped by a security guy, and then showing them that the camera is fake… that would be RL trolling.
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): man /monster
[2012/04/10 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The intention would be to be provocative
[2012/04/10 16:26]  darcon Xue: Thank you Ext love. 🙂 Thank you loves 🙂 have a nice time 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye!
[2012/04/10 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Extie re: Thought Police
[2012/04/10 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (bye Darcon!)
[2012/04/10 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, oh, I heard about two guys who bought their own park bench. Went around Central Park; getting stopped by cops. Showed their purchase papers. After a while, the cops ignored them. Then they began stealing benches
[2012/04/10 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha well, that’s one step further….
[2012/04/10 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Typical RL trolls: wearing faux fur on a PETA event 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:28]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): that also depends on how big is the place you live in
[2012/04/10 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: Can’t be easy to sell park benches on the black market I’m thinking….. heh
[2012/04/10 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I opened this debate by mentioning the jail sentence of a blogger who posted hateful comments about that footballer who had a heart attack. I kind of fear a world in which what you say can land you in jail.
[2012/04/10 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re *Central Park* benches, Art! Lots of historical value 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There are people in States where open carrying is permitted. In California, it is, as long as the gun is empty. So a group of people routinely go into restaurants, then call the cops, saying there are armed men here. At first the cops would hassle them; a few 10,000 a head lawsuits later and the cops wised up
[2012/04/10 16:28]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): imagine u are a superstar
[2012/04/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I do too.
[2012/04/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: well, that’s the other side of the coin. What is libel and defamation?
[2012/04/10 16:29]  Archibald (jerome.ronzales): are u allowed to contact with trolls or is just a visit to the zoo?
[2012/04/10 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s always been possible to get in trouble by saying certain things…. even in a country where “freedom of speech” is supposed to be the highest law of the land, it has always had limits.
[2012/04/10 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OK one minute to go…so what is the best way of dealing with a troll?
[2012/04/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, the limit is when it starts hurting other people…
[2012/04/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: sarcasm 🙂
[2012/04/10 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gun carrying is related to sexual perfomance issues I’m thinking….. heh
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I find ridicule works really, really well
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sarcasm, irony, ridicule…
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “counter-trolling” you might call it; troll the trolls
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, now stop that!
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You are my alt.
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: I would have thought both were the worst thing to do ‘Never feed the troll’. In other words, ignore them utterly.
[2012/04/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Archibald; ignore that; Gwyn has never been, nor is she now, an alt of mind
[2012/04/10 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ignoring them works a lot of thje time.
[2012/04/10 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK. My time is up!
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