THINKERS FEB 28 2012: GENDER NEUTRALITY

Extropia DaSilva: Ok welcome to Thinkers, still on despite the best efforts of the griefers..
[2012/02/28 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: Her Rhiannon, can you not use alts to crash competing discussion groups?
[2012/02/28 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2012/02/28 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi zoee!
[2012/02/28 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: just huge eyes :p
[2012/02/28 15:35]  Chance (miss.zadark): I’ll relog. It’s not detaching, so somethin’s messed up anyway.
[2012/02/28 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it possible to raise a gender-neutral child?
[2012/02/28 15:36]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): In what sense?
[2012/02/28 15:36]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): (Now that it’s the appropriate place to ask)
[2012/02/28 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I suppose it’s possible, but it would be very difficult
[2012/02/28 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: In the sense that it has no gender. Or in the sense that it chooses what gender it will be.
[2012/02/28 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: To judge from all the guys watching My Little Pony now, I’d say it’s been done. :/
[2012/02/28 15:36]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): So..
[2012/02/28 15:36]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Physically genderless?
[2012/02/28 15:37]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Until such a time as a choice is made?
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah.
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: IS gender physical?
[2012/02/28 15:37]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): … Hmm.
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, those are too different things; and Lady Gaga shows that the one is possible
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Strix6: I have told all owners of land about the griefer – banned in all places now
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: There was a comic about that a decade ago. Kids made a choice in pubverty.
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t think MLP is so much related to gender
[2012/02/28 15:37]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Hmm.. Is gender physical ..
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: thanks, strix.
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma points –> http://Gavalanche.deviantart.com/art/The-Commission-is-Machismo-274426745
[2012/02/28 15:37]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Yes.
[2012/02/28 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): MLP?
[2012/02/28 15:38]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Gender, like all aspects of the individual, is physical.
[2012/02/28 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: MLP has a wide array of characters, that’s why it has such a broad audience
[2012/02/28 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: (My Little Pony Rhi)
[2012/02/28 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What’s MLP?
[2012/02/28 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: See, I thought sex was biological, but GENDER was what society deemed your sex should and should not do. Like ‘boys do not cry’ is gender.
[2012/02/28 15:38]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Oh, gender ROLES?
[2012/02/28 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sounds like something yoiu’d put on dogshit to make it tasty
[2012/02/28 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: My Little Pony?
[2012/02/28 15:38]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Genderless as in no reinforcement of gender identity roles? That’s an entirely different concept.. Hm.
[2012/02/28 15:38]  Strix6: I think a child should be received and loved as individual – with the gender package
[2012/02/28 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, My Little Pony, Zo mentioned it 😛
[2012/02/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, my little pony
[2012/02/28 15:39]  Strix6: it is the value of the genders that is the problem
[2012/02/28 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, that’s getting a wide audience among boys these days
[2012/02/28 15:39]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Realistically it would be literally impossible to raise a child without gender identity or gender roles being a part of their world..
[2012/02/28 15:39]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): …without utter isolation of the child from birth.
[2012/02/28 15:39]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): So, ethically, no, it is not presently possible.
[2012/02/28 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: being gender neutral *is* gender identity 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Yep
[2012/02/28 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I read where there was a chool like that in the 70’s and the kids started ickingn up dolls (girls) or palying with sticks (boys) anyway
[2012/02/28 15:40]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Then –
[2012/02/28 15:40]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Binary gender roles.
[2012/02/28 15:40]  Strix6: boys play with dolls too – lego men
[2012/02/28 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, they gave the boys Barbie dolls…. But pretty soon they were pointing the dolls at each other and yelling BANG BANG! 😀
[2012/02/28 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t think that’s “literally impossible”
[2012/02/28 15:40]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): So if we have, in modern society, modern binary gender roles, then without isolating the child from all of society…
[2012/02/28 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): strix, no, they play with action figures
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey! … Gwyn
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): lol
[2012/02/28 15:41]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): They will be exposed to external stimuli and influence.
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Strix6: action man too lol
[2012/02/28 15:41]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): That’s the nature of the learning human brain.
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: so do you think boys know they are boys without having to be told? It comes naturally?
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Strix6: tin soldiers
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s only a matter of what is acceptable as norm in the society
[2012/02/28 15:41]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): If they spend time in society, yes.
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Gwyn!
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Boo 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:41]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): They will reason it out if exposed to a world of binary gender roles.
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: if society viewed gender neutral, or any gender blends, as normal
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, there are societal messages as well as parfental ones
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: I made my female dolls gang fuck my male dolls and each other before I was ten.
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Chance (miss.zadark): Unfortunately the sterotypes are shoved down their throats by school and other children, along with the more “conventional” adults in their lives and the media… Even if they’re isolated their whole childhood, they could still be influenced later because people interact with them negatively if they aren’t.
[2012/02/28 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: then raising a gender neutral child is perfectly feasible
[2012/02/28 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Boo is right, gwynie. We had a horrid Griefer. Poor Toy was scared witless.
[2012/02/28 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh cool, chance’s face is fixed now. 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Like you don’t have to be told not to eat your neighbors–you get it in all the cannibal jokes
[2012/02/28 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: The gender binarity may not comfortably accomodate my urges.
[2012/02/28 15:42]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): If, yes, Ivy, if. But in the present it is not currently feasible.
[2012/02/28 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So to be totally genderless in upbringing, you’d either have to change society or hide out in the mountains
[2012/02/28 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my — talk about gender issues, and griefers appear? 😉
[2012/02/28 15:42]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Yep.
[2012/02/28 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sorry, my warning wasn’t soon enough, Extie
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah look at the floor, it’s all smudged in Santorum.
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, he is some kind of neo nazi.
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: No it was, Rhi. he just managed to leave a nasty script before I could eject and ban him.
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: DANI: yes, I’m only nitpicking at your word choice, it’s not “literally impossible”, it’s literally impossible to escape black hole, not to raise a gender neutral child, I’m sure if we tried hard enough and had enough money to spend we could raise one 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:43]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): So it really isn’t likely that raising a child from birth without any gender reinforcement is possible in modern society, without a drastic change that may invoke questionable ethics.
[2012/02/28 15:43]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Ivy: True.
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: No tedhnically it *is* possible to escape a black hole, actually. Just damn hard.
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, well, no wonder everything is laggy; I’m not on the internet
[2012/02/28 15:43]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): More appropriate would have been “extraordinarily unlikely and difficult.”
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would that “drastic change” be?
[2012/02/28 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Interestingly after I posted this topic there were stories in the papers about people who are trying to raise their child gender neutral.
[2012/02/28 15:44]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Personally I’m all for the transcendence of binary gender.
[2012/02/28 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: It’s like raising a child “post-Foodist”
[2012/02/28 15:44]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): But it really kind of doesn’t work right now.
[2012/02/28 15:44]  Strix6: in sweden they use a neutral preposition – I dont like that at all
[2012/02/28 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: <sarcasm on> Put a PlayStation in front of them and they will be gender neutral <sarcasm off>
[2012/02/28 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: It’s doable, but not in this body central paradigm
[2012/02/28 15:44]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Such is present human nature.
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What would be the advantage of being gender neuteral? Except at a bisexual bar, I mean
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: well are we heading towards gender neutrality?
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Gwynneth wow-addicts are not gender neutral, They masturbate on Lara Crofft and dancing Night elves.
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: hello Gwyn
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Strix6: Make boys and girls build lego house together – the boys bild the walls the girls build the furniture
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: my thoughts exactly…. is there an *advantage* to being gender neutral?
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: WoW addicts are definitely not gender neutral, males and females behave completely different in WoW
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn.
[2012/02/28 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: I’d raise hell if we were, I demand gender pandorism
[2012/02/28 15:45]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Other than flexibility..
[2012/02/28 15:45]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Wait, wait.
[2012/02/28 15:46]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Have any of you ever read “The Left Hand of Darkness”?
[2012/02/28 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: The advantage would be society judging you on your ability and not on some preconception of what your sex aught to do or aught not to do.
[2012/02/28 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: aye, and they might do that no matter what their biological sex might be 😉
[2012/02/28 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: *Extie plays footsie on gwyn’s back*
[2012/02/28 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, so the issue is other people’s perceptions? 🙂 But you will never be able to change them 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can just change your own 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: I once tried to read The Left Hand of Darkness a long time ago, couldn’t get into it.
[2012/02/28 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: well, then the problem at hand is really educating the society, not raising children (though one can be done via the other, as long as we still die from aging at some point)
[2012/02/28 15:47]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): While it IS science fiction, Ursula K. LeGuin’s novel “The Left Hand Of Darkness” depicts a very interesting speculative world populated by a species that is gender-neutral until a mating season.
[2012/02/28 15:48]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): In the end the gender is still binary, but only temporary.
[2012/02/28 15:48]  Chance (miss.zadark): I think the more interesting question may be: How far should you push neutrality on a child? How long should you let a boy play with cars before you introduce him to dolls? Or should you push him to be more feminine if he shows masculine qualities?
[2012/02/28 15:48]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): It’s … interesting, but I forget the clearer advantages the society held over ours.. It’s been a long time..
[2012/02/28 15:48]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I think if you’re going to raise a child gender-neutral by their own experience, you shouldn’t “introduce” any particular “opposite” element.
[2012/02/28 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, if there were NO preconceptions over gender identity, a binary gender would be irrelevant. Mmmh. It would be the same as discussing what is “better” — Army or Navy — both are military
[2012/02/28 15:49]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I think the world around them would do just fine at laying these options out..
[2012/02/28 15:49]  Chance (miss.zadark): DANI, but what if a boy only plays with cars naturally?
[2012/02/28 15:49]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Then so it goes?
[2012/02/28 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s hard not to introduce any opposite element, especially if one is dangly or not
[2012/02/28 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: One thing I’ve noticed is that men have much more anxiety about being perceived as feminine, as compared with women being perceived as masculine.
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chance: what I’ve seen these days is that boys play as much with dolls as girls; cars have less interest to girls; both love PlayStations 🙂 This is just anedoctal and parochial evidence by observing other people’s kids, of course, and not an academic study…
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Strix6: Isnt it better to let the child self find out where to belong in the gender slace and in the orienteation
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Is a binary identity actually incorrect if there is not a binary sex? I understand that actually the human race cannot be divided into males and females because some or a mix of both.
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Strix6: scale*
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ZO. aye, I have noticed that too hehe — I wonder why
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: You can even see it in baby names. Over time lots of names begin as masculine and then later become gender-neutral, but it rarely ever happens with feminine names.
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: well, not without a reason everything that is not cool in manly man’s eyes is “gay”
[2012/02/28 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: This entire topic is just like a society before winged flight. The analogue extends to transgenderism, and balloons – it is flight but not ‘the actual thing’. Soon we WILL have gender diversity beyond the third gender, hijara, futanari, male, female, gay, lesbian, bi, kink, queer, non, pan etc. etc. One day we’ll engineer flying and anyone who wants to will be free. Women will birth their children in Ovum Tanks. Etcetera.
[2012/02/28 15:51]  Strix6: Kim – can be derived from Kimberly or from Joachim
[2012/02/28 15:51]  Chance (miss.zadark): I agree, Gwyneth. Hell, I recently had a son and I plan to buy cars as well as dolls, just to let him play with what he pleases.
[2012/02/28 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: sex is not gender is not preference of sexual partner. All three are independent, but closely aligned in about 80% of the population.
[2012/02/28 15:51]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): ^
[2012/02/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: what is the difference between sex and gender, exactly?
[2012/02/28 15:52]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I agree with the extension of “gender” into “nonphysical traits associated with sex.”
[2012/02/28 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chance: give him Legos 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:52]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Er, nonbiological*
[2012/02/28 15:52]  Chance (miss.zadark): Of course I will. He’s gonna inherit my massive lego collection. xD
[2012/02/28 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Legos!
[2012/02/28 15:52]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): If you separate “sex” and “gender”, you have a biological element and a societal element.
[2012/02/28 15:52]  Strix6: Legos are good – you can use them male or female whatefer you feel you are
[2012/02/28 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: depends on the scientific area you’re talking about. In gender psychology, sex is phenotype, gender is behaviour
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that’s an oversimplification)
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But should give a good start.
[2012/02/28 15:53]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): behavioral element, that’s what I was looking for, not societal.
[2012/02/28 15:53]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Well, both.
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, gender is “learned”
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gender is the societal expectations
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both, yes, DANI
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Rhi
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And none have anything to do with the preference of a sexual partner.
[2012/02/28 15:53]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Gender is learned but gender is also enforced though not overtly in western society.
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, learned/enforced/acquired/imitated….
[2012/02/28 15:53]  Strix6: The learning of gender is not a problem – the problem is the learning of VALUE of a gender
[2012/02/28 15:54]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I would say one follows the other.
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Strix! That’s where preconceptions come in, yes
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: So sex (biology) does have some influence on gender (behaviour, societal expectations)?
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: there is a strong correlation, yes.
[2012/02/28 15:54]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): To no small extent.
[2012/02/28 15:54]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Hormonal influence drives much behavior.
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed hehe
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn blushes
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, also the basic facts of life, that women bear children and me sire them
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Strix6: and it varies
[2012/02/28 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Nope.
[2012/02/28 15:55]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Sorry, lemme get my wing out of your face Rhi
[2012/02/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Most of our institutions and history are organized around that
[2012/02/28 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: So if we are not blank slates, true gender neutrality IS impossible, right?
[2012/02/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks, Mani
[2012/02/28 15:55]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Extropia: That’s probably true
[2012/02/28 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: There is progress in developing In Vitro wombs. 20 years at most till it is used on higher mammals.
[2012/02/28 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: with the current setup of our bodies, it is impossible without “drastic changes” (e.g. hormone therapy, surgery…)
[2012/02/28 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *Dani
[2012/02/28 15:55]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): There will not be an objective “neutrality” until there is a biological one.
[2012/02/28 15:55]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): And there is where I say it is literally impossible.
[2012/02/28 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: I think before 2030 we’ll have humans born outside the female womb.
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I’m still not exactly sure what gender neutrality means? Does it means making sure boys and girls learn the same skills?
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Parenting or occupational?
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are some reported cases of truly asexual persons, but they’re incredibly exceptional really
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Does it mean conditioniing to bisexuality?
[2012/02/28 15:56]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): And yes, I mean the word literal that time.
[2012/02/28 15:56]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): It means not associating with behavioral/societal male/female traits specifically, I would think.
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: What would be the result if we’d castrate children just after birth? Remove scrotum/penis/vagina/ovae?
[2012/02/28 15:56]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Not tending toward that binary association.
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Strix6: The gender values comes in when you look at jobs – working directlly with money is MALE and well paid – working with people is cinsidered female and low values – no matter if men or women are doing the jobs
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: What would be the psychosexual development path?
[2012/02/28 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Well Rhi when you came to Sl YOU decided you would be a female avvie. You could have chosen to be male. That is what we mean, ‘you, the individual, choose your gender’.
[2012/02/28 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s the good question, Rhi. I’m not sure I got that right, either. So far, I saw a working assumption: “making sure that society has absolutely no bias against the perceived gender”
[2012/02/28 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu reminds Extropia of “seren’s gift”
[2012/02/28 15:57]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Extropia makes a good point, but then there is a hormomal influence on that decision as well.
[2012/02/28 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: You could have been no gender at all.
[2012/02/28 15:57]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Maybe strong, maybe not.
[2012/02/28 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Some sexual development occurs in the brain.
[2012/02/28 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, but I didn’t choose how people would respond to me
[2012/02/28 15:58]  Strix6: I know a person born as a boy but with a 90% female brain – he is now a happy corrected woman
[2012/02/28 15:58]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Ah, but there are connotations to your decision.
[2012/02/28 15:58]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): There are consequences that can be examined.
[2012/02/28 15:58]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): These can be examined, in fact, before your decision.
[2012/02/28 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Err…. I just saw an article the other day about how women are the big wage earners these days.
[2012/02/28 15:58]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): In fact, SL makes avatars that are robots and airships so you can literally bear no gender association if your name fits..
[2012/02/28 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: Oddly enough many MtF transgenders become lesbians.
[2012/02/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): To make sure there are no biases is not the same as to strip us of our gender
[2012/02/28 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course those jobs that require “people skills” are the ones that aren’t being taken by machines. :/
[2012/02/28 15:59]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): No, no.
[2012/02/28 15:59]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Of course it isn’t the same.
[2012/02/28 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: no, the percentage is about the same as non-MtF lesbians (I’ve checked 😉 )
[2012/02/28 15:59]  Strix6: Khannea – well the orientation might persist
[2012/02/28 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Dani, ture, one of my first friends in SL is a self prclaimed neuter
[2012/02/28 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that’s pretty much what I had in mind too 🙂
[2012/02/28 15:59]  Strix6: this woman I was talking about is heterosexual though and married to a man
[2012/02/28 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu looks suspiciously at Gwynneth.
[2012/02/28 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, I’m fine with my gender, so long as I’m not being *prejudiced* against
[2012/02/28 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins at Khannea 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): One of the more facinating parts of SL was when people insisted I must be a man; although it wasn’t until I had a male avatar that I experienced male privilege, and een som of the
[2012/02/28 16:00]  Strix6: yes i repeat Gwynneth “I mean, I’m fine with my gender, so long as I’m not being *prejudiced* against”
[2012/02/28 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma sighs…
[2012/02/28 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Disclaimer: while I’m not an expert in gender issues, I do tend to hang around with people who are 🙂 It’s a fascinating subject, like everything that relates to identity — I admit I’m naturally drawn to issues that question what the self is, how it appears, and what influences it
[2012/02/28 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody once said of me ‘strictly speaking she is not female because avatars have no gender at all’. Is that true?
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No!
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu is a gender connoisseur rather than an expert.
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): huh, lag. So I’ll repeat. Oh, Extie, of course avatars have genders
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Avatars have a gender; they might not have a biological sex though 😉
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Even inanimate objects have genders
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Strix6: the avatars have the brain gender of its user
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: they do, Rhi? In what sense?
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I know that I’m treating ifferently as a male avatar than as a female one
[2012/02/28 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that’s questionnle, Strix — some are pretty good actors! or actresses! hehe
[2012/02/28 16:02]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): In many latin languages, at least!
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: my avatar definitely has a gender, though I still haven’t came up with a term I’d like 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:03]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): romantic*
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Even by people who think I’m male to begin with
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon, no. Sentient Inanimate objects have no gender. This kantian stuff is really annoying.
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: You aren’t male Rhi? I can see tits on you.
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Extie, remember that gender is a gramatical form as well, outside of English
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Good point, Rhi! 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Strix6: I could run a female avi as I have female elelment in my brain
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: AND your avatar may be a ‘Pairson’: An individual in SL pupettered by two or more people in RL.
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, you should try thinking in another language sometimes
[2012/02/28 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: …. and I thought you were talking about fetishes…
[2012/02/28 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon du bisst kein weib? Ich konnte jetzt die titten auf deinkorper sehen?
[2012/02/28 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For Khannea, “sex” is the same, no matter what the language…. hehe
[2012/02/28 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh languages are quite a different story
[2012/02/28 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, that was nasty; I do apologise, Khannea!
[2012/02/28 16:04]  Strix6: like german above yes
[2012/02/28 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Polish makes a distinction between male and female speakers
[2012/02/28 16:04]  Strix6: Swedish too
[2012/02/28 16:05]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Wollt ihr das bett in flammen sehen? :<
[2012/02/28 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: German, the strange language where “ein Weib” (a female) is actualy a neutral word. LOL
[2012/02/28 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it’s not just a grammatical convention, now that Khannea has actually butssressed my point
[2012/02/28 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: saying “I did shopping” in Polish varies depending on gender
[2012/02/28 16:05]  Strix6: nein es würde schade sein
[2012/02/28 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Warum haben wir so viele Deutsch-sprachige Leute hier??
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Right. For males it means ‘I bought some stuff’ and for females it means ‘I maxed out my credit limit’.
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie!…
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Strix6: Ich habe es ins schule gelernt
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So does Japanese
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s genderism 🙂 lol
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, tsk, tsk
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: hahahaha, no, it spells different too, aside to meaning something different *grins*
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ich auch, Strix 😉 )
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But it does have a point; when a male does something it means something else than when a female does it
[2012/02/28 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But see, Extie does make a point.
[2012/02/28 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The same action, depending on gender, is perceived differently!
[2012/02/28 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: There there, pet, *pats Gwyn in an overbearingly patronizing way*
[2012/02/28 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: 私の嫌なやつを吸いなさい Rhi
[2012/02/28 16:07]  Strix6: Je parlez trez petit francaise aussi
[2012/02/28 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll maternalize you back, Extie!
[2012/02/28 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I always knew you were my long lost mother, Gwyn.
[2012/02/28 16:07]  Strix6: kaj mi parolas iometa esperanto
[2012/02/28 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m too young for that, Extie, but I’d be happy to adopt you, though! 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Your mother is you pet, Extie?
[2012/02/28 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is Esperanto a genderless language?
[2012/02/28 16:08]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): No, its gender is Shatner.
[2012/02/28 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: fajnie jest mówić w języku którego nikt nie rozumie 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:08]  Strix6: no esperanto has genders
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: does any language have no gender?
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, because it’s a 19th-century synthetic language 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, mathematics
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: machine-code language, I guess.
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Strix6: it can be neuralaized with ge- prefix
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: I don’t think so, but some are more “gender aware than others”
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Strix6: Geviroj =Ladies & Gentlemen
[2012/02/28 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: english is fairly gender neutral
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, English has “gender by association” I guess…
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s actually one of the reasons I like english
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye… we just impute the gender, but it’s not explicitly named
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: except on pronouns…
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Is French partocularly gender aware with all that confusing ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ le, La?
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We have a lot of connotations in English, but yes, for English gender=sex in grammar
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Strix6: english grammar is full of exceptions
[2012/02/28 16:10]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Well everyone, I have to get moving.. Enjoy the remainder of the dialogue
[2012/02/28 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn actually wonders WHY English, unlike all other European languages, “lost” its gender
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes DANI
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Strix6: esperanto is man made and has NO exceptions to the grammar
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye Dani. You have *the* coolest avvie!
[2012/02/28 16:11]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): That sky is fake…
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh yes talking about language makes us all feel a lot less uncomfortable than sex,
[2012/02/28 16:11]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Thank you!
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Sex is such a unsettling topic.
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Khannea
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I was under the impression that gender in English is pretty messed up.
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Strix6: lolol
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gender, in general, is messed up 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, not compared to other European languages
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, gender bending in VR is easier in english than in polish, that’s for sure
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Strix6: Word Gwynneth
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Maybe you need practice Gwyn?
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, most definitely!
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Ivy?
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: You have my email, Gwyn.
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, Ivy, I agree hehe
[2012/02/28 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: for the reason I stated before, the grammar you say with depends on *your* gender
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, I see.
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, example… We have a lot of words like “chairman” which used to be considered gender-neutral, until somebody decided it wasn’t neutral *enough*, so we were forced to invent awkward replacements like “chair” or “chairperson”. 😛
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s very, very hard to keep a long conversation in Portuguese, for example, where you keep all gender identity of the speaker absent from every sentence. It’s doable, but it’s a pain!
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: I did shopping – Zrobiłem zakupy / Zrobiłam zakupy
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): khannea, talking about language though is on the right track; before we can say we are genderless, there can’t be grammatical forms that are different or connotations
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: *every single verb* has a different ending
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: for different gender
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zobeid: Or Humankind because Mankind is sexist 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Exactly. 😦
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: so there is a lot of gender identity when speaking
[2012/02/28 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: unlike english
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: I did shopping is perfectly neutral
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Ivy
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon that may be true but to me it smells of kant.
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Strix6: the language is the culture and the value of gender is in the culture and the language
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In English it is there, but it is in the depth grammar
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Strix: what does that say about the Anglo-saxon world then? 😉
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: no Rhi, it isn’t there
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: at all
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: My favourite example of political correctness gone mad was when great offense was taken when someone used the word ‘niggardly’.
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha!
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: english only touches gender in third person
[2012/02/28 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: not first person
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Strix6: oufff
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, or how about personhole covers
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Strix6: ;-))
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Strix6: interesting
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): or herstory
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: gloryhole covers
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: lol
[2012/02/28 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually like Tibetan because they are not even speciecist in some words…. the word for “person” includes animals too, not just men and women of the human species 😉
[2012/02/28 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: I propose the world’s first gender-free, non class-based, non-racist, non-violent chess set: 32 gray pawns all on the same side.
[2012/02/28 16:16]  Strix6: interesting – what does that say about Tibetan culture
[2012/02/28 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … even though their culture, by contrast, is very male-oriented
[2012/02/28 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Strix: it says that they tried to make a difference but utterly failed hehe
[2012/02/28 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … or they had some VERY weird fetishes…. LOL
[2012/02/28 16:16]  Strix6: ***Sigh**
[2012/02/28 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Strix are you bychance the Dominatrix of one of the Wachovsky br… ehh.. sisters?
[2012/02/28 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: *cough* siblings.
[2012/02/28 16:17]  Strix6: then we can state that language may be important but not the entire solution of the gender values
[2012/02/28 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu mean Bounded, Khannea? No…Bound. Was that it?
[2012/02/28 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do agree, Strix
[2012/02/28 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not sure if the artificial un-gendering of some English words really make a difference.
[2012/02/28 16:18]  Strix6: But as cofusius said – language is important – because we must have the same idea of what we are talking about
[2012/02/28 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Perfect Imperfection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfekcyjna_niedoskona%C5%82o%C5%9B%C4%87) introduces a “third gender” grammar for post-human beings in polish
[2012/02/28 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, sure.
[2012/02/28 16:18]  Strix6: otherwise we be like cat and dog
[2012/02/28 16:18]  Strix6: a dog waving tail is happy a cat is angry
[2012/02/28 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu drools at the Bound Dyke.
[2012/02/28 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: It makes a difference to me, because it annoys me. I’m ultra-orthodox when it comes to language. My dictionary was printed in 1934. 😐
[2012/02/28 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: Uh oh troll alert
[2012/02/28 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Zo 🙂 That reminds me of my current fights in my country about the ongoing change in spelling….
[2012/02/28 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: is “troll” gender neutral?
[2012/02/28 16:19]  Strix6: ney-troll
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Strix6: neu-troll
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Belle Bubble: Hi. sorry, can’t stop dancing
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: kk
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you use Terry Pratchett as a reference, Ivy, the answer is “no” — emancipated trolls are proud of their gender 😉 heh heh
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so that was an obscure reference.
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: ok 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In terry Pratchett’s world, Dwarfs have no visible gender.
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: they all have beards!
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which makes the mating season very awkward 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly!
[2012/02/28 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And dress the same way!
[2012/02/28 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And do the same jobs.
[2012/02/28 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: In the 1920s a US senator tried to legislate horse’s dresses to make sure the gargantuan horses penises would be covered.
[2012/02/28 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: – when is dinner coming?
[2012/02/28 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: – right after I chop the wood!
[2012/02/28 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Puritanism…. world’s worst nightmare in the long gender wars 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:21]  Strix6: the gender that has the hugest size in nature usually is the deciding gender
[2012/02/28 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, size matters. Heh.
[2012/02/28 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: what about artificial/synthetic life forms?
[2012/02/28 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWeNX5hQqo4
[2012/02/28 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But brains help!
[2012/02/28 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: DO you have any in mind, Ivy? 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: Geth in Mass Effect don’t have genders, though I guess most people view Legion as “him”
[2012/02/28 16:22]  Strix6: there is discrimination to pleople that are smaller than average
[2012/02/28 16:23]  Strix6: no matter what gender
[2012/02/28 16:23]  Dizzy Ugajin: ok but how about creatures that actually changes genders during their life span?
[2012/02/28 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is some sort of evolutionary hardwiring in us to assign genders to stuff
[2012/02/28 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s much more fun, Dizzy!
[2012/02/28 16:23]  Strix6: Interesting Dizzy
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: They change sex.
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I’m not so sure it’s “evolutionary” but socially conditioned….
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: humans changing gender, telling someone to “grow some balls” would never feel the same!
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: If you are not a social animal, can you have a gender?
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: At this stage it is necessary to recommend all here a detailed study of the artist Dmitry.
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Dizzy Ugajin: yes i belive we are part of both all of us our bodily apperance is for reproduktion
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: RIght! As Extie says, they only change sex.
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Strix6: Snails change sex so they are always male and female meeting
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To change gender requires a human brain 😉 (or something equivalent to it at least….)
[2012/02/28 16:24]  Strix6: if they are same when they meet one change
[2012/02/28 16:25]  Dizzy Ugajin: no it happens in nature
[2012/02/28 16:25]  Brewsta: i dont think gender is hard wired, if we were all the same gender there wouldnt be that curiosity stage most of us have had about the other gender, not to mention we are raised with expectations on our genders, females will marry/have a baby, etc..
[2012/02/28 16:25]  Dizzy Ugajin: gender as we discuss it is a mind set
[2012/02/28 16:25]  Strix6: seahorses the males take care of the eggs
[2012/02/28 16:25]  Dizzy Ugajin: its cutural
[2012/02/28 16:25]  Strix6: Penguins too
[2012/02/28 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: White girl to be tried as a black man! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84phU8of02U&feature=relmfu
[2012/02/28 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Brewsta, as I said earlier…. sex is hard-wired, gender (according to gender psychologists at least) is mostly conditioned by behaviour, while the preference of sexual partner is not related to either sex or gender….
[2012/02/28 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Dizzy said, yes
[2012/02/28 16:26]  Brewsta: i dont think sex is hard wired, the expectations force it that way.
[2012/02/28 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Also, authors have characters of either gender but there is not a noticalble increase in believability in those characters whose gender matches that of the author. So it is possible to get into the mindset of either.
[2012/02/28 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So what about the original question? We have decided that gender is grammatical, it’s part of the depth grammar, it’s societal, it’s what people expect of you, but can we actually raise a genderless chld then?
[2012/02/28 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There *are* ongoing studies trying to “prove” that gender can also have a genetic predisposition, but they’re stiull a bit inconclusive.
[2012/02/28 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Khani
[2012/02/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I would say it’s only possible outside the current society 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:27]  Dizzy Ugajin: i belive our souls are genderless our true beings has no gender or both
[2012/02/28 16:27]  Brewsta: as for some people who end up gay, id say they have a lot in common with people who bet on a horse thats bound to loose.
[2012/02/28 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree with Gwynie.
[2012/02/28 16:27]  Strix6: It is impossible to raise a kid genderless – but with effort the fvalue of gender can be neuralized
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not in our society.
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Brewsta: in outer space you coudl raise them genderless as a single parent of the same gender
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if you live as an outcast, sure….
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, we are enmired in gendr. There really aren’t human being; there are men and women
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Brewsta
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: does gay/straight fall under ‘gender’ or is it something else entirely?
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Outer space… remote islands
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Strix6: no
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Dizzy Ugajin: to do that would be to do the kid sorry for the rest of the kids life we raise kids to survive not for an idea
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If by “gay” you mean “homosexual preference of sexual partner”, then it’s something completely different, Extie
[2012/02/28 16:28]  Strix6: the gender you have is one thing – the gender you are attracted to is another
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Chance (miss.zadark): Sexuality has nothing to do with gender… that’s proved by both sexes being attracted to both.
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: what about online gwyn? Can gender neutrality exist more easily there?
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Dizzy Ugajin: ty Chance:)
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Strix6: usually you are attracted to the other but there is variation
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: More easily, yes, sure….
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: You all knew that by and large “gay” males treat the MtF or FtM transgendered with prejudice and hostility?
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: I did not know.
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prejudice is widespread, yes hehe
[2012/02/28 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: you do now!
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Strix6: if I happen to fall in lve with a man I am called gay
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Genderneutrality in the internet? Noooo. Maybe equality but I doubt it; if there were such a thing, then people wouldn’t make such a big todo your “real” gender
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can go further, Khannea: on LGBT communities, all LGBs treat the Ts with prejudice 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: not just that, transsexual MtF-es will treat transvestite MtF-es with prejudice :p
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Strix6: if I happen to fall in love with a woman I am cllaed straight
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Dizzy Ugajin: isnt it that is new to us all to our old beliefs when it wasnt possible to do what todays science can ?
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Brewsta: & alot of straights and gays dont trust bi people
[2012/02/28 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I was just agreeing that it is “easier”; not that is widespread 🙂
[2012/02/28 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Oook my time is up!
This entry was posted in after thinkers. Bookmark the permalink.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s