Thinkers Feb 07 2012: WHAT ANIMALS KNOW OF DEATH

Arisia Vita and I at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/02/07 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Have you noticed that? That lag can take you z’s away
[2012/02/07 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we discuss…
[2012/02/07 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: KNOWING ABOUT DEATH: How do we know humans are the only animal that knows it will die?
[2012/02/07 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: Answer, we don’t and can’t know. The end.
[2012/02/07 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: haha
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not laughing 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if we use sthe principle of analogy, which is the only way we can know if there are any other minds that our own, then yes, a lot of animls know their mortality
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: But actually, Animals know about death as they see it around them often.
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: then why is it so often said that humans are the only animal ect etc?
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Lem Skall: I think a lot of animals know ABOUT death because they see members of their families die
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead, I’ve been reading Damasio to get a clue at what he thinks about that.
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Lem Skall: what Scarp said
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): SLem, yes, and they mourn too.
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (see, sometiems I do homework!)
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah Rhi, I’ve seen that happen.
[2012/02/07 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: I think it depends on if you are able to construct an abstract ‘self’ in your brain.
[2012/02/07 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Also, and I know what you’re going to say; I’ve sense the spirit of my dead dogs in my living room, and my living animals sense it too. From there behavior
[2012/02/07 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: By seeing death around them, does any individual animal become aware of its own mortality? I mean, as in ‘at some point in the future I will have ceased to exist’?
[2012/02/07 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: According to Damasio, to be able to have a clue about “present” and “future” (so that you can “think about your future death”) requires a special layer of consciousness. It has been relatively “proven” that at least primates have that, and, according to Damasio once more, he believes that cats and dogs may have it too.
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, all one has to do is observe cats and dogs to know that
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That layer should be enough to be able to give its owner the ability to think of its own death.
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): People have used their blinders-we humans are *special* to not see it in the past
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Rhi — there is sadly some stigma against studying cats and dogs :;(
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Lem Skall: so the question is do animals know that death is unavoidable?
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: I think an animal needs to be able to think in abstract terms in order to see themselves in the third person. I also think you need a prefrontal cortex to do that, no?
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Lem Skall: like taxes?
[2012/02/07 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we need to diferentiate between an evolved reflex, such as a prey running from a predator, and knowledge of the sort Lem just referred to.
[2012/02/07 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a bit outdated these days….
[2012/02/07 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, they spend most of their lives avoiding it, so they’d like to think it was. But the way dogs behave, they know it isn’t
[2012/02/07 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is no more “evolved reflex” 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah there is.
[2012/02/07 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, there is something way more complex than “reflex”
[2012/02/07 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: hello sweets!
[2012/02/07 15:38]  Lem Skall: Rhi, you may avoid accidental death without realizing that you die of old age no matter what
[2012/02/07 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Heya Trophy
[2012/02/07 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well maybe, but then there’s that pesky principle of analogy; if we were to say all animal behavior is just reflex, then, as far as I can tell, so is yours
[2012/02/07 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah read my PDF Trophy?
[2012/02/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: No.
[2012/02/07 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Kahannea!
[2012/02/07 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It requires the brain’s ability to self-diagnose itself instantly and be able to trigger things to get back to order. But this is a bit more complicated than what we used to call “reflexes”
[2012/02/07 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: I did not know you sent me one.
[2012/02/07 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey! … y’all
[2012/02/07 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi William!
[2012/02/07 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu slams down
[2012/02/07 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi, it’s more than that actually — what we used to call “reflexes” is simply an oversimplification of what is actually a very complex form of behaviour which requires a conscience of one’s own self, even if that level of consciousness is too primitive to be called “self-conscious”.
[2012/02/07 15:40]  William Hawksby: Hi All
[2012/02/07 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Things have become complex in the past 2 decades…
[2012/02/07 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: The more I think about this I think that death is an abstract concept. And animals need to have abstract thinking in order to consider it….
[2012/02/07 15:40]  Lem Skall: well, considering that only humans have written and verbally transmitted history, death may be the same as many other things that only humans know to be from past experience
[2012/02/07 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I agree, Gwyn, totally
[2012/02/07 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, that would be, evolutionarily speaking, an anomaly
[2012/02/07 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And self consciousness goes down further though than you might think
[2012/02/07 15:41]  Lem Skall: we ARE an anomaly
[2012/02/07 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is an evolutionary advantage of “understanding” death
[2012/02/07 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I once scared a little crustacean in an aquarium when i blew it a kiss. Didn’t think it woiuld be aware of me or itself, but it was
[2012/02/07 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nah, lem, there used to be other non-human, self-conscious, intelligent life forms on Earth before — we just managed to get them extinct 😉
[2012/02/07 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: I had a cat slee in uner special circumstances once. Everytime those conditions emerged the other cats because acutely agitated.. They didn’t see the cat die. They just only knew of her absense.
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, neanderthals?
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Rhi _)=
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Dolphins
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Lem 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok well whatever they call it I still say it is not exactly ‘knowledge’. My vocabulary is lacking here, but I feel there are many instances when creatures look like they know something when they do not. For instance, a spider probably has no idea how to build a web but hard-wired drives it instinctiveky follows crafts perfetct webs nontheless.
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s not “that hard-wired” as it seems BUT….
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, oh, someone just ate Zoe
[2012/02/07 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Obviously a spider has far less knowledge about itself than a cat!
[2012/02/07 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops poor Zoe
[2012/02/07 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Zoe
[2012/02/07 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Do elephant graves signify knowledge of death?
[2012/02/07 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: When I observe my cats I am amazed at how little they understand anything but repeated behaviors.
[2012/02/07 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): you realize, don’t you Gwyn, that if an alien were to observe this, it would think there’s only one sentient female on the ground, and that’s you? Zoe is an ocelot, and I’m well, erm, heh…
[2012/02/07 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: Good question EXtie
[2012/02/07 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: I sometimes fear we humans delude ourselves that what we do is in any way special. We regard our cognition and ability for abstraction as another level, another quantum state of mind, while it;’s just very intricate rotes we are ourselves incapable of acknowledging.
[2012/02/07 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My dog knows more English than I know Spanish
[2012/02/07 15:45]  William Hawksby: Dont you get cramps sitting l;ike that Lem?
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi DANI!
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Violet!
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Lem Skall: there is no program for cramps in sl
[2012/02/07 15:45]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Hello, just curious, is this an open-forum discussion or is there a speaker?
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, don’t bring up camps. Mine are do in about five days
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Lem Skall: we’re all speakers
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: ¿Y usted llama a su marido un perro, Rhiannon?
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Open forum.
[2012/02/07 15:45]  Scarp Godenot: open forum discussion with a topic, DANI
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: For the newcomers, the topic is..
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: KNOWING ABOUT DEATH: How do we know humans are the only animal that knows it will die?
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What do I call me dog, Khannea?
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Here I call her Zusanna, after my fictional character’s werewolf companion
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Lem Skall: ye dog?
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh hi Violet!
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think we can KNOW that animals know they will die; we can INFER.
[2012/02/07 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Arf
[2012/02/07 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. when we observe how other humans react and behave, even if we don’t know thgeir speech, we know they can think about death
[2012/02/07 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Similarly, even though Neanderthals never left us any writing, we also know they knew about death
[2012/02/07 15:47]  Lem Skall: oh, I just realized that at least some animals know when their death is coming and they are not surprised so it must imply that they knew about it all along
[2012/02/07 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: what about Scarp’s point that such knowledge requires frontal lobes or whatever he said was required?
[2012/02/07 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And pets certainly “prepare” themselves for death. It’s heart-bleeding to watch.
[2012/02/07 15:47]  William Hawksby: what would be evidence of animals’ knowledge of the inevitability of death?
[2012/02/07 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I missed that comment of Scarp’s hehe
[2012/02/07 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: But maybe we have attributive blind spots about the human state itself. I actually feel pretty confident we do, I can clearly perceive and affirm them when I use LSD.
[2012/02/07 15:47]  William Hawksby: when theyre very iff?
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: only indirect evidence: the way they behave.
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: When one of my cats died, the other one didn’t seem to recognize it in any way.
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, they’re howling at the death of a pack member, they’re wish to avoid dangers.
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think our experience is both farther and closer to that of other animals’ than we’re comfortable acknowledging. But, worded that way, that doesn’t say much :p
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Rhi, everyone 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm Scarp. Well. What happens is that they might not *mourn* in the sense that you’re thinking
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Violet. Good to see you again.
[2012/02/07 15:48]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Whew, there we go, jacket refused to rez in.
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Lem Skall: so do we agree at least that animals know when they are about to die?
[2012/02/07 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But some primates do — they carry their dead babies around for a while for instance
[2012/02/07 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: I mourn avatars who leave.,
[2012/02/07 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree, Lem.
[2012/02/07 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: in the sense that they have a feeling of something whemn they’re ill, yes
[2012/02/07 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Dogy!
[2012/02/07 15:49]  William Hawksby: ive had animals wander off to die, but they might have been more comfoprtable in seclusion because of their illness, rather than impending death
[2012/02/07 15:49]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Research has indicated that, at least in the case of mammals, a sense of empathy is present in some species.
[2012/02/07 15:50]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Given this notion, it is likely that an animal that can experience empathy can experience a dense of imminent demise.
[2012/02/07 15:50]  William Hawksby: empathy after the other is dead
[2012/02/07 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Would any person become aware of their own mortality without someone else informing them of this fact?
[2012/02/07 15:50]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I think that they also know it in the sense of being a good bye
[2012/02/07 15:50]  William Hawksby: but do the survivors know the same thing will happen to then eventually?
[2012/02/07 15:50]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Well, there are a couple of cases; one is anecdotal, the other the subject of research. The two cases being:
[2012/02/07 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, apart from the moment of imminent death.
[2012/02/07 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: aye, I would agree
[2012/02/07 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, if a companion went to sleep and didn’t wake up…
[2012/02/07 15:50]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): 1) A researcher noticed an ape rescuing his drowning fellow from a stream.
[2012/02/07 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William, I think that the problem is that you cannot be 100% sure 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:51]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): 2) Research has been done to show that rats are sensitive to one another’s peril and will put empathic behavior over self-serving behavior in many cases.
[2012/02/07 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): My dog got concerned when her pack sister died and then Rosalyn went to a care facility, and I broiught her down to visit; like she thought this is where I take pack members I get rid of
[2012/02/07 15:51]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Given instances of empathic behavior in nonhuman mammals, it is not out of the question that mammals can also understand that their bodies are failing, or feel an emotional down during periods of declining health.
[2012/02/07 15:52]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Whether this is the effect of the failing body itself or a sense of foreboding is not clear, as I understand it.
[2012/02/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quite so. We know that at least domestic animals feel stress and get depressed — which would be labeled as “ridiculous” in, say, 1960-70
[2012/02/07 15:52]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Though the ability to “reason” in any sense comparable to human reason remains, as far as I have seen, exclusively in the brains of homo sapiens.
[2012/02/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But these days we can clinically diagnose that
[2012/02/07 15:52]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): My connection’s too bad…take care, everyone 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, there are some metaphysical prejudices involved here. Yeah, Gwyn, that is why most people ignore scientists on the subject.
[2012/02/07 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Violet
[2012/02/07 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, i!
[2012/02/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, Rhi
[2012/02/07 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: I reckon they would understand the failing of their bodies in the way they understand they are pregnant. Many animals can be seen preparing nests and dens and stuff which suggests on some level an understanding that they are about to become mothers.
[2012/02/07 15:53]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Now when you say metaphysical prejudices, what are you implying?
[2012/02/07 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The metaphysical prejudices are: humans are superior to animals, so natuarlly we have a “sense” animals don’t have
[2012/02/07 15:53]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Ah, I see, exactly the element of human reason I was referring to?
[2012/02/07 15:53]  William Hawksby: I saw a video once of a cow in a slaughterhouse chute- it looked pretty scared of going thru the last door- tried everything to escape
[2012/02/07 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, you mean if animals have a sense of the metaphysical., Extie? 🙂 My guess not. They might just view “death” as just another event.
[2012/02/07 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, I’m implying that there are assumptions about human nature, our status in the universe that are not empirical
[2012/02/07 15:54]  Lem Skall: Extie, interesting point, if animals know what birth means then how do they see death in relation to that?
[2012/02/07 15:54]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): True, though the soundest perception of reality is grounded in a healthy mix of empiricism AND rationalism.
[2012/02/07 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, that human reason is the only faculty that knows death
[2012/02/07 15:54]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Ah, now there is a question:
[2012/02/07 15:55]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Is “contemplating death” and “knowing you’re in danger of dying” the same thing?
[2012/02/07 15:55]  Lem Skall: I’m beginning to think that animals may see life in a spiritual way, the way primitive cultures see it
[2012/02/07 15:55]  William Hawksby: we are aware of death as the end of life but we havent the slightest idea what occurs thereafter
[2012/02/07 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, contemplating implies proglonged reflection; it’s not the same as knowing you’re in danger, even if the danger, you know is mortality
[2012/02/07 15:55]  William Hawksby: and i think we are the only species that wonders about that
[2012/02/07 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless we say, “can animals think about death in the human sense of the word?” I’d answer that with a “no” — specially because animals don’t have words hehe. But if the question is more far-reaching, in the sense that they can consider a future situation of non-being, I think they can come very close to that feeling and prepare/react/behave accordingly.
[2012/02/07 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Any animal that believes itself to be immortal seems unlikely to pass on its genes:) I mean, why run from any danger? What danger is there for an immortal?
[2012/02/07 15:56]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Mountains of philosophy and religious tomes have been constructed on the fact that we have the capacity to comprehend we will die far ahead of time, to contemplate what that means, to reflect on what may or may not, if anything, follow the event of death..
[2012/02/07 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie, that doesn’t even make sense. You’re speaking as if survival instinct was the result of some kind of logical analysis. 😛
[2012/02/07 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: yes, in that sense, I would agree… but that still would leave the “elephant graveyards” an open question: do elephants think that there is an “essence” of former elephants in those graveyards, or do they just wander back there because they refresh memories of their pastr pack members?
[2012/02/07 15:56]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Survival instinct is, indeed, just as it says on the tin.
[2012/02/07 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Immortal does not mean invulnerable 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, well, isn’t it? To know that you’re in danger means you have to believe that you’re in danger, and that is a result of cognition
[2012/02/07 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: It is, Zo. Dawkins’ Selfish gene explains it, with many a caveat about not taking ‘logic analysis’ too literally.
[2012/02/07 15:57]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I wonder if it is only homo sapiens that actively intends to live forever, whether spiritually or physically (again, the religious promise of the afterlife comes into play).
[2012/02/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed. Even as recently as a decade ago, it was believed (just a belief!) that only humans could make the decision to harm their own bodies — e.g. stop sleeping, stop eating, etc. because they’re depressed or just making a point
[2012/02/07 15:58]  William Hawksby: L is calling
[2012/02/07 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, William!
[2012/02/07 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: No, Dani. I intend to live forever too.
[2012/02/07 15:58]  ℜogue (grace.nkremos): take care
[2012/02/07 15:58]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The most important point to consider, I feel, is which species have the ability to *contemplate* death. If they are only ourselves, then there you are.
[2012/02/07 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we all know that pets, when stressed (say, because they miss their owners) will stop eating too
[2012/02/07 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn, what I mentioned earlier was that death is an abstract concept. And thinking about one’s own death requires thinking about oneself in the Third Person, which I think can’t be done without a frontal cortex….
[2012/02/07 15:58]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Well so do I – I suspect you’re probably someone I’ve interacted with in the past under another moniker – transhumanist?
[2012/02/07 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If by “thinking” in that context you mean “metaphysically thinkling about death”, then yes, I’m sure you’re right, Scarp 🙂
[2012/02/07 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Digital person, actually. But I belong to many transhuman groups because they pursue science and technology relevant to my set goals as a DP.
[2012/02/07 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But some animal species can certainly think about themselves in the 3rd Person — that’s why some primates are able to play tricks upon others: they can visualise themselves setting up traps or similar things to make fun of other pack members. That happens all the time.
[2012/02/07 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Keep in mind that only humans (AFAIK) have a large memetic (as opposed to genetic) component of their identity which is catastrophically lost upon their demise.
[2012/02/07 16:01]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Or upon any sufficient brain damage.
[2012/02/07 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, like Mary, Queen of Scott’s little poodle, which stopped eating after she was beheaded
[2012/02/07 16:01]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): A severe enough knock to the head, and who you were yesterday is lost, for good.
[2012/02/07 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: By comparison, if an animal has successfully passed on its genes to a new generation, then the great majority of what defined it *does* carry on after death.
[2012/02/07 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, I find that fascinating, DANI 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:01]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Anyway Extropia, I think I just stumbled onto one of your essays. I’ll have to take a look at it soon.
[2012/02/07 16:02]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): “Digital Person” is a new term for me. I’ll add that one to the list of relevant keywords..
[2012/02/07 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: hoy hoy
[2012/02/07 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Ivy!
[2012/02/07 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Please do:) And feel free to leave comments.
[2012/02/07 16:02]  ℜogue (grace.nkremos): bye all take care
[2012/02/07 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi r. Kiri
[2012/02/07 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, we are assuming that the mind is dependent, if not identical, to bhe brain
[2012/02/07 16:02]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The subject seems immediately relevant given the actions taken by companies like Google against anonymity.
[2012/02/07 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Heh, talk about a *huge* metaphysical assumption
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: back
[2012/02/07 16:03]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Perhaps, Rhi –
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Ivy! Hi Toy
[2012/02/07 16:03]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): But perhaps not. Every action of consciousness is demonstrably mechanical in nature.
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Toy (aeni.silvercloud): hello 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes Rhi — I’m pretty sure that cats don’t worry about that 😉
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, some of us are, anyway, DANI, Scarp’s comment about needing a frontal cotex
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: DANI: that’s a bold claim that requires extraordinary proof 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: A digital person is a fictional character created and developed in online worlds and social networks. Whereas an avatar is a representation of some RL person, a DP represents nobody in RL but does have some RL person or persons performing its character.
[2012/02/07 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean about EVERY action 😉
[2012/02/07 16:04]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Well, perhaps “every action” is a broad sweep.
[2012/02/07 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): extaordinary proof means only that you are too stubborn to accept ordinary proof. lol
[2012/02/07 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes it is :)=
[2012/02/07 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi!
[2012/02/07 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: what is extraordinary proof?
[2012/02/07 16:04]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Not exactly.. That’s the mindset that lands you in a pew on Sunday..
[2012/02/07 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, and every mechanism is demosnrtably teleological in character. you jut hae to switch language frames
[2012/02/07 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins
[2012/02/07 16:05]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): As Sagan aptly said, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” – the gravity of evidence simply needs to match the gravity of the claim.
[2012/02/07 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo I did not see Ivy and Toy arrive! Hello you two.
[2012/02/07 16:05]  Toy (aeni.silvercloud): hello 😉
[2012/02/07 16:05]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2012/02/07 16:05]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Where was I .. I think I’ve lost my train of thought here..
[2012/02/07 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Nice to see you with pink hair again, Toy. I reckon it suits you best.
[2012/02/07 16:05]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Right! Memory and cognition and sensory action are shown to be electrochemical in nature.
[2012/02/07 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, maybe Dr. Taggert can ge it bak on track
[2012/02/07 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: gaaaah
[2012/02/07 16:06]  Toy (aeni.silvercloud): aw thank you! 😉
[2012/02/07 16:06]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Dr. Taggart … Ugh, that’s a name that doesn’t sit well with me for entirely unrelated reasons. 😉
[2012/02/07 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: But we have known that for ages, Dani.
[2012/02/07 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hee hee, as demonstrated by Zablotsky with 100 turtles. (From Silk Stockings)
[2012/02/07 16:06]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Well yes, that’s the point I am making about the mechanism of the brain.
[2012/02/07 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: what point was that, again?
[2012/02/07 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But the trouble with those demonstrations, DANI is they depend on perception, wich depends, in turn, on consciousness, which then becomes epistemologically prior to the so called materialistic object
[2012/02/07 16:07]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): That the “metaphysical assumption” is more of a present “best-fit” argument.
[2012/02/07 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: ah, kk
[2012/02/07 16:07]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): That, as with any rational perspective, the model can change tomorrow given sufficient evidence to the contrary.
[2012/02/07 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: Are their any cases of animals doing other than abandoning their dead relatives where they fell ( or eating them)?
[2012/02/07 16:07]  Dr. Kiri Taggart (kiri.taggart): There are, in fact.
[2012/02/07 16:07]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I see, Rhi – we can only perceive the mechanism of the brain with our brains.
[2012/02/07 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: such as?
[2012/02/07 16:08]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): This threatens to wade into solopsist territory shortly.. Hehe.
[2012/02/07 16:08]  Dr. Kiri Taggart (kiri.taggart): A man was mountain hiking with his dog and succumbed to death.
[2012/02/07 16:08]  Dr. Kiri Taggart (kiri.taggart): His dog was found days later, still at his side, malnourished but alive.
[2012/02/07 16:08]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Solipsist* Dammit.
[2012/02/07 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): loll. No, we can under perceive that relationship with your minds. A prior conscioiusness to the material one.
[2012/02/07 16:08]  Dr. Kiri Taggart (kiri.taggart): (sorry, I don’t have a source link)
[2012/02/07 16:08]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): So you feel there is a consciousness that is separate from the physically reactive element of the brain?
[2012/02/07 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh do we have some solipsists here? It is so rare to meet a fellow solipsist!
[2012/02/07 16:09]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I’m afraid I’m not a solipsist in the least. Not in practice, anyway.
[2012/02/07 16:09]  Lem Skall: any fellow nihilists here?
[2012/02/07 16:09]  Scarp Godenot: Dr. Kiri, in the case you mention, the dog was waiting for instructions and was there for security by scent, no?
[2012/02/07 16:09]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): In terms of the examination of reality, I’d best be described as a methodological naturalist.
[2012/02/07 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, what did you think was important about animals not losing a whole lot of memetic effect when they die?
[2012/02/07 16:10]  Dr. Kiri Taggart (kiri.taggart): That could be, too, Scarp– the dog, with its pack leader dead, was lost at what to do other than wait it out.
[2012/02/07 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think there is a consciousness seperate from the brain. Unless you mean the very limited way in which I am separate.
[2012/02/07 16:10]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): True – to grossly steal from Voltaire:
[2012/02/07 16:10]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): “If there is no such thing as a soul, it will need to be invented.”
[2012/02/07 16:10]  Scarp Godenot: If the brain includes the entire nervous system I can agree with you extie.
[2012/02/07 16:10]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Steal, cut, paste, paraphrase, and repurpose, that is.
[2012/02/07 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, the problem is we know the conscioiusness, the brain is an inference from observations; in other words a set of mental events.
[2012/02/07 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So “reducing” consicousness to brain states fails for that reason
[2012/02/07 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well not only the nervous system… we would have a very poor self-image if we didn’t include all the body’s messenging systems, which go way beyond the nervous system.
[2012/02/07 16:11]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Then is the brain a thing that simply cannot be understood by our limited naturalistic reach?
[2012/02/07 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: It is only a problem for philosophers who delight in overcomplicating even the simplest of things.
[2012/02/07 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: The tragic thing about a human’s death is all the memories, knowledge, experience that is catastrophically lost. With animals they just don’t have all that much in their little heads. They’re definied mostly by their DNA.
[2012/02/07 16:11]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Or is it that we must accept our limited extent of understanding and work within it?
[2012/02/07 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, a separate point; perhaps. Consciousness would have a problem with being reduced naturalistically
[2012/02/07 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The brain can be understood, yes. The mind, well, it defies analysis, since nobody can enter your mind and do research there 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unless you included the mind in nature
[2012/02/07 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: It does not define analysis. If you want to know how I feel, ask.
[2012/02/07 16:12]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I don’t personally see any meaningful difference between “mind” and “activity of the brain,” so the mind must inherently be naturalistic.
[2012/02/07 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Dani, the mind is what the brain does.
[2012/02/07 16:13]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): As I expressed.
[2012/02/07 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, no the brain is the manifestation of the mind in the physical universe
[2012/02/07 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: uhuh.
[2012/02/07 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: Observing my cats, their brain activity consists of eat, drink, sniff, get petted, cozy nest, chase things that move. The end.
[2012/02/07 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ::sticks her tongue out at Extie::
[2012/02/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, neurologists also have that problem. How do youi know that someone else’s mind operates in exactly the same way, so that you can safely perform brain surgery there? 🙂 Neurologists cannot *know* but, well, they use it as an assumption — an axiom, if you wish — or we wouldn’t have such advanced brain surgery as we do today.
[2012/02/07 16:13]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I’m not certain that claim can hold water beyond postulation, albeit interesting postulation.
[2012/02/07 16:13]  Lem Skall: Scarp, your cats also love and hate
[2012/02/07 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: most humans I know do little more than taht, unfortunately.
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To Extie: so it’s not just a problem for philosophy.
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Elizabeth Spieler: people that were brain dead, and regained brain use, had memories of what occurred while brain dead, science thnks memory is in the blood
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the.-… blood?
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s news to me!
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Elizabeth Spieler: Gwyn I think it’s in the water
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Lem Skall: Elizabeth, the definition of brain dead is incomplete
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The water?
[2012/02/07 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
[2012/02/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What water?
[2012/02/07 16:15]  Elizabeth Spieler: water has no beginning
[2012/02/07 16:15]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): What?
[2012/02/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn is confused.
[2012/02/07 16:15]  Elizabeth Spieler: giggles sorry I studied water
[2012/02/07 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: But we know people’s minds do not operate the same way. I have seen many experiments showing people of different cultures sometimes have different perceptions of the world. For instance, Eskimos never bother to turn a photo the right way up because they can orientate it in their heads. They are amazed that Westerners need to right a photo before looking at it.
[2012/02/07 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: memory is in the brain. this can be proven by studying partially. brain damaged individuals
[2012/02/07 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Are you talking about human memory, or some other kind of “memory” effect, Elizabeth?
[2012/02/07 16:15]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Oh dear..
[2012/02/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, nobody has the same perceptions as you do 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is true for every other human being.
[2012/02/07 16:16]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): I’m going to bite my tongue at water memory as I can hardly be called qualified to speak on the subject. I’ll just remain … skeptical.
[2012/02/07 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: (did Rhi poke her tongue out at me?)
[2012/02/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (earlier on)
[2012/02/07 16:16]  Elizabeth Spieler: Gwyn well . . far to much to explain, as for the brain being memory – it’s more a processor than ram
[2012/02/07 16:16]  Lem Skall: extie, can you give us a reference for that eskimo story? I find that hard to believe
[2012/02/07 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t; have you noticed how males and females use maps?
[2012/02/07 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You just now noticed that, Elizabeth. I offered a plausible alternative explanation to your reductionism and then stuck my tongue out at you. lol
[2012/02/07 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I mean, Extie
[2012/02/07 16:17]  Elizabeth Spieler: males use predominately right brain, females use left and right brain
[2012/02/07 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, “Touching: The Human Importance Of Skin” it is a PDF. The chapter is number 7, I think, on culture and touch.
[2012/02/07 16:17]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The problem, Rhi, is that plausible explanation doesn’t really seem to be founded in anything demonstrable..
[2012/02/07 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s such an oversimplification, Elizabeth… we all use the whole brain really
[2012/02/07 16:18]  Elizabeth Spieler: well I am a horse whisperer and the first thing we learn is horses live in a state of fear they will die
[2012/02/07 16:18]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Again we’re talking about a nonphysical element to human consciousness, correct?
[2012/02/07 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: All people use both sides, because they have different functions. There is some evidence that females have more side to side connections….
[2012/02/07 16:18]  Elizabeth Spieler: humans and horses “see” from the exact same blueprint
[2012/02/07 16:18]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Or more specifically, a non-naturalistic element?
[2012/02/07 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. Every other year, that theory is put upside down, Scarp 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, yes, that is correct. NOt necessarilky a non-naturalistic element
[2012/02/07 16:19]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Then what naturalistic property can be associated with the non-physical mind?
[2012/02/07 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unless naturalism is just lukewarm materialism that dares not speak it’s name
[2012/02/07 16:19]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): If we start poking our noses in quantum physics, I’ll be forced to admit I’m not qualified..
[2012/02/07 16:19]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Naturalism – ah, excuse me:
[2012/02/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe DANI — same here
[2012/02/07 16:19]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Methodological naturalism.
[2012/02/07 16:19]  Elizabeth Spieler: males and females are born with the same brain, hormones alter it as we age
[2012/02/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No quanta for me, thanks! For me everything’s relative
[2012/02/07 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/02/07 16:19]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Not philosophical naturalism, per se.
[2012/02/07 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Quantum phyiics does suggest a non-material basis to the world, but only if you use matter in the traditional sense of being located in local space
[2012/02/07 16:20]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): And there is where my knowledge ends.
[2012/02/07 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Quantum physics is good for two things: The most precise measurements science can make, and making mystic mumbo jumbo sound scientific;)
[2012/02/07 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But the broader our concept of matter, the less meaning we have to the term
[2012/02/07 16:20]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Maybe if this degraded into a discussion about Finite-State Automata I’d have a little input at this level. 😉
[2012/02/07 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): heh, and here we have almost arried at “How many angels can dancne at the head of a pin?”
[2012/02/07 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s certainly correct, rhi. “Matter: taht which is 99.999999997% made of pure vacuum”
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay, DANI 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, and is non-local in space or time. Erm…
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn waves “Gödel, Escher, Bach” at DANI
[2012/02/07 16:21]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Frankly I hold fast to my association with a methodologically naturalistic examination of reality, as we have little to no alternative, at present, for an exploration of the actual nature of reality.
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: why did anybody care how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with “Little” but not with “No alternativ”.
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, because it would determine whether angesl were physical or not
[2012/02/07 16:21]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Ooh, haven’t read it, Gwyn. It’s on my list.
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: “Extie waves I Am A Strange Loop back at gwyn.
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If physical, a finite number; if immaterial, they would not be spatially located, so an infinite number
[2012/02/07 16:21]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): DANI Unit 47-33A nervously clutches “Snow Crash.”
[2012/02/07 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: the question was if the number finite or infinite; and on that issue the whole of mathematics rests.
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: What do you mean, little or no alternative? What about scrying, and astral travel? 😛
[2012/02/07 16:22]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): They can’t all be scholarly texts..
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Rhi who explains it so much better.
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes
[2012/02/07 16:22]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The question is;
[2012/02/07 16:22]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): What is “immaterial”?
[2012/02/07 16:22]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): In a meaningful sense?
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that’s why I’m beginning to get de ja vu about it; Is the mind material or immaterial?
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zoe: I was thinking about *working* alternatives 😉
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: “Extie waves I Am A Strange Loop at her primary who waves it at her in a self-referential loop Hoffstadter would totallly dig”
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, non material; not located in space
[2012/02/07 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha, I know the answer to that 😉
[2012/02/07 16:23]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Right, but does that have any meaning on our strictly spatial perception?
[2012/02/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both are made of the same thing, as Shakespeare so well put it.
[2012/02/07 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: <——–materialist…. heh
[2012/02/07 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, heh, I have a desk in my house where I can look at my computer as my paratar looks at hers. I’m thinking of getting a texture with her picture to put on the computer screen, so we close the loops
[2012/02/07 16:23]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): That is to say, can we make heads or tails of the immaterial with our present state of human limitation?
[2012/02/07 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): She’s looking at me, looking at her, looking at me…
[2012/02/07 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that would be a Strange Loop indeed!
[2012/02/07 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, maybe not.
[2012/02/07 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: what is a paratar? An avatar of your parrot?
[2012/02/07 16:24]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): If the immaterial exists, if there actually is anything “Beyond the universe,” if that statement actually bears meaning, in what way can we falsify or prove the existence of such a thing?
[2012/02/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: DANI: actually, we only label things as being “material” or “non-material” and explore the first and discard the latter, but both are just concepts in our brain really
[2012/02/07 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: or our mind…. hehe
[2012/02/07 16:24]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): If we cannot (as is the case, at present) it bears no meaning in our current models of reality, which will ALWAYS update and change and adapt to new information (a possible understanding of the immaterial.)
[2012/02/07 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: I agree there are two types of Reality: Material reality and Bullshit reality….. heh
[2012/02/07 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I love strange loops; Rosalyn has this original album of “Bringing it all Back Home,” from Dylan; There’s an album on his table; I’ve often fantasized it’s “bringing it all back home.”
[2012/02/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, we’re the kind of civilisation that believes there exists “dark matter”, “anti.matter”, “exotic matter” ana “non-matter”, and can define each kind not merely philosophically, but with physical attributes…. hehe
[2012/02/07 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, material reality *is* bullshit reality. lol
[2012/02/07 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: You need to think of that subject in terms of metaphors, Dani. A metaphor is immaterial. A dream is immaterial.
[2012/02/07 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, dark matter is like phlogiston; the missing eement o the fire triangle.
[2012/02/07 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp. we all know what Bullshit reality is made of 🙂 But what is Material reality made of?
[2012/02/07 16:25]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): A metaphor is immaterial, a dream is immaterial –
[2012/02/07 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We nee for times the energy preent to account for the unvierse’s structure
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hence, dark matter…
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: physical stuff, Gwyn.
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is “physical stiff”?
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Doesn’t mean they can’t be important, though.
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: OMG 4 minutes left, folks!
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *stuff even
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or maybe it’s God’s will; like Newton thought gravityh was
[2012/02/07 16:26]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The first is an abstract concept..
[2012/02/07 16:26]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The second is neural, physical activity..
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, we need to do time distortion
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: stuff that is material.
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Circular reasoning!
[2012/02/07 16:26]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The first is only given definition by the nature of language, defined by the minds of mankind, which are material things.
[2012/02/07 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: Material reality is what every single thing you interact with is. Simple.
[2012/02/07 16:26]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): It is arguable that abstract concepts only make sense if rooted in material processes.
[2012/02/07 16:27]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Or something.
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So dark matter, anti-.matter, exotic matter, or non-matter are not part of reality?
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither is Mars or Jupiter, because I cannot interact with them? 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And vice, ersa, DANI; each if then relationship can be reversed.
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: We interact wit them, no?
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We cannot, by definition!
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Elizabeth Spieler: I and life are one, so therefore I can’t really die, nothing with life can, as life has no opposite and is always on, regardless of the form it’s in
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Oh we do interact with them.
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: I can interact with Mars and Jupiter.
[2012/02/07 16:27]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Wait, wait – we absolutely have potential to interact with every real thing in the universe.
[2012/02/07 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: sure you can’
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, we formulate mathematical equations about them 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zoe: I cannot 🙂
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s why I giggled at Extie; her interpretation is right, the mind is what the brain does. But it could allso be the case, and account for th same facts, if the brain was the manisfestation of the mind.
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We can’t decide on the empirical data alone
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: No, Gwyn. None of that is immaterial. Dark matter, for instance is material but it does not interact with electromagnetism so we cannot detect it with our eyes or instruments, but instead infer its presence from its gravitational effects.
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, correlation is not causation.
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Elizabeth Spieler: a brain without the life force can’t do anything
[2012/02/07 16:28]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): And the life force is material.
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Elizabeth Spieler: life reflects off the brain, law of reflection
[2012/02/07 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The right temporal lobe–stimjulate that and you get religious eelings? Ah, God consciousness is just the stimulation of thte right temporal llobe
[2012/02/07 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unless, that is the part of the brain He used to communcate with us…
[2012/02/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: nevertheless, nobody in their sane mind would claim that “dark matter” is not material, even if a) we cannot interact with it; b) we cannot measure it ㋡
[2012/02/07 16:29]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): The “life force” is a nice handy combination of electrochemical and physical reactions that cease when part of the mechanism fails.
[2012/02/07 16:29]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): (And people wonder why I’m a mechanist!)
[2012/02/07 16:29]  Elizabeth Spieler: life is self evident – as no life ever said I am Not
[2012/02/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, look at “normal matter” — what is inside it?
[2012/02/07 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, that’s the point; it has to be material, but a kind of matter that we’re clueless over
[2012/02/07 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next to nothing.
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: No Rhi, it depends on your beliefs. If you stimulate a person who is religious they interpret it as communing with god, but an atheist will interpret it as..I forget what, but not god.
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Elizabeth Spieler: matter isn’t life, matter is just dust changing forms
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha, Rhi. So if we’re clueless about the kind of matter it’s made of, it’s material, right?
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): DANI, life force? I’ve been from one end of this galaxy to the other and haven’t evver encountering an all encompassing Force
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *even if
[2012/02/07 16:30]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Wait, wait, what was that about atheists and stimulation?
[2012/02/07 16:30]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): We LOVE a little bit of stimulation.
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol yes
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Elizabeth Spieler: sure you have Rhi
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yeah, hard to really believe in that conclusion
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t believe in the supernatural, but I believe in the mystic.
[2012/02/07 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really: it’s just a belief.
[2012/02/07 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing more than a belief.
[2012/02/07 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Liz, I’vehidden my space ship in my closet; stop prying
[2012/02/07 16:31]  Elizabeth Spieler: Rhi life is everywhere, and regardless if your body matter passes, life has not shut off, as no one is in exclusive ownership of life
[2012/02/07 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: DANI, it was a reference to the ‘god helmet’ a device that uses magnetic stimulation to induce visions in people.
[2012/02/07 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, yes, there is a diference
[2012/02/07 16:31]  DANI Unit 47-33A (case.nansen): Oho.
[2012/02/07 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up!
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