THINKERS JAN 17 2012: WILL WORK FOR FREE

Seren Seraph, myself, and Jamie Marlin at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/01/17 15:33]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Thinkers!
[2012/01/17 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…
[2012/01/17 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: WILL WORK FOR FREE: People generally expect to be paid for the work they do. An exception to this rule is MMORPGs and online worlds, where most people either work for nothing, or actually pay the company for the opportunity to toil away in their virtual world. How did this turn of events come about?
[2012/01/17 15:34]  Lem Skall: not mmorpg’s in general, anything other than SL?
[2012/01/17 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t really see how work is done for free in MMORPGs
[2012/01/17 15:34]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i think it’s origins are in quests from adventure games
[2012/01/17 15:34]  Morgaine Dinova: Is the topic just the last question, about history? Or the whole analysis?
[2012/01/17 15:34]  DoctorPartridge Allen: think of how most early mmorpg’s followed rpgs – which needed virtual economies
[2012/01/17 15:34]  Lem Skall: as for how that came about in SL, it’s like boiling a frog
[2012/01/17 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean, Lem?
[2012/01/17 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: Wow Ari, that looked an uncomfortabl;e position 😛
[2012/01/17 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: most early mmorpgs did not follow rpgs, they followed MUDs
[2012/01/17 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: welcome, sis!
[2012/01/17 15:35]  Lem Skall: I mean gradually, put it in cold water and heat it gradually, people won’t even notice
[2012/01/17 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Morgie, the whole analysis.
[2012/01/17 15:36]  Lem Skall: we first got hooked with absolute freedom and then that got cut down little by little
[2012/01/17 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: how was your freedom in SL hindered over time Lem?
[2012/01/17 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: I think the question needs to examine “work” first. Is it work that is done in MMOs? What does it mean for something to be “work”?
[2012/01/17 15:36]  DoctorPartridge Allen: idk, in sl the early notions of ‘work’ were a factor of camping and traffic weren’t they?
[2012/01/17 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure I accept the premise. What “work” are people doing for free in games?
[2012/01/17 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: I’d like to know that as well
[2012/01/17 15:37]  Lem Skall: Ivy, not my freedom, freedom in general, rules were introduced where there were none before
[2012/01/17 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: well, how do those rules hinder freedom *in general*? :p
[2012/01/17 15:37]  Lem Skall: no gambling, no ageplay
[2012/01/17 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Well in WOW there is a lot of manegerial work to be done organizing guilds and such. And there is grinding which is as dull as any assembly line job you care to mention.
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: gambling was enforced by the RL law
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: so is ageplay to my best knowledge
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Lem Skall: pfft, doesn’t matter WHY
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: The gambling ban is ending this year.
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Lem Skall: it was
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Morgaine Dinova: I think the noun “work” exists in a word space that is too small for the digital era, and is missing some nuances.
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Lem Skall: Khan, dream on
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Which means I expect to see slot machines around Thinkers soon.
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: none of that work is done for free, people who manage guilds and raids and what not do it for tangible benefits in game
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: One study showed that every kind of job type has some kind og equivilent in most RPGs.
[2012/01/17 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: epic lootz!
[2012/01/17 15:38]  DoctorPartridge Allen: many mmo’s use ‘jobs’ that way ext
[2012/01/17 15:39]  Morgaine Dinova: CAN I HAVE UR SWORD?
[2012/01/17 15:39]  DoctorPartridge Allen: for example Morgaine? how is the word too small?
[2012/01/17 15:40]  Lem Skall: maybe what Extie stated is an exaggeration but SL was created by crowdsourcing with the promise of “your world, your imagination” and now it is LL’s world
[2012/01/17 15:40]  Fblurbg: One might even back up and ask why people do “work” that they’re not getting paid for IRL. Knitting, gardening, stuff like that. Obviously because they believe they get *something* out of it, even if it’s not money. The same must hold true in virtual worlds.
[2012/01/17 15:40]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): There’s also Amazon’s Mechanical Turk.
[2012/01/17 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: Diablo 3 is introducing real money auction house, so you will be able to actually do “labor” and earn money in game
[2012/01/17 15:41]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you could argue that in sl even merchants are working for free – few merchants make profits – kind of a blockbuster biz paradigm
[2012/01/17 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve a simpler example of work being done for free – Linux and Open Source in general
[2012/01/17 15:41]  Lem Skall: so there was no “payment” but there was an expectation of reward that was not fulfilled
[2012/01/17 15:41]  Morgaine Dinova: Doc: “work” carries with it the baggage of “work” in RL, which has traditionally been a method of earning money to survive. MMOs and virtual worlds in general have different dynamics, so the RL meaning of “work” doesn’t apply very well to in-world activivites.
[2012/01/17 15:42]  Morgaine Dinova: Really deserves different words, with more nuances to capture what is really going on.
[2012/01/17 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: but wherin is the crucial differences, Morg? Why is it that people happily grind away in MMORPGs but would not dream of doing anything so dull in RL unless paid to do so?
[2012/01/17 15:43]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Morgaine – you’re on to something – the real capital in an MMO is social capital in most cases isn’t it?
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Lem Skall: whatever you call it, work or otherwise, LL profits from it
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Done for “free” is an iffy thing – as not all payment is in cash per se. Reputation, good will, etc.
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: Morgaine: I suggest we call the thing you do to survive “job”, and the thing you do for other reasons (benefits or not) “work” 🙂
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Morgaine Dinova: Just like for us, there are just 1 or 2 different words for “snow”, whereas allegedly an Eskimo has a ton of different words for it.
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Jamie Marlin: I don’t get how SL is any ‘more’ Linden Lab’s than it was at the beginning, Lem – what brought me here was the opportunity to make cool stuff and play.. I never expected anything out of it
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve been active on MUCKs that were *truly* cooperative, creative environments — without money or DRM. So I know that kind of thing can work on a small scale. That nobody’s even trying it in a SL-like environment irks me.
[2012/01/17 15:43]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Lem, shouldn’t a biz profit from a product?
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Merit Coba: Oh eh uhm
[2012/01/17 15:43]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Actually, Zobeid – have you looked at the OpenSIM grids?
[2012/01/17 15:44]  Merit Coba: Hedla
[2012/01/17 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: Eh? What about OpenSim? I’ve looked at some grids, they all seemed to work basically just like SL.
[2012/01/17 15:44]  Lem Skall: Jamie, true for you but I don’t think it was for many people
[2012/01/17 15:44]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Morgaine – good point re snow, perhaps redefinition makes good sensse given context
[2012/01/17 15:44]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Some do, some don’t.
[2012/01/17 15:44]  Jamie Marlin: I would go further – I WANT LL to profit, so that they will have a reason to keep SL alive.
[2012/01/17 15:45]  Lem Skall: Doc, yes but normally it should be done with a clear contract with conditions that don’t change
[2012/01/17 15:45]  Morgaine Dinova: Zob: Yes, the designers of Opensim swallowed the Linden constraints lock stock and barrel, sadly.
[2012/01/17 15:45]  Jamie Marlin: Do you think most people came here looking for profit, Lem? As in, a way to make RL money?
[2012/01/17 15:45]  Lem Skall: Jamie, agreed, but LL kept changing the conditions of the contract
[2012/01/17 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I wonder how hard it would be to fork OpenSim and strip that stuff out?
[2012/01/17 15:45]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Jamie – i suspect that dropping the walls is their best hope – but it would take insane courage at this point.
[2012/01/17 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: I actually know guys who wanted to do that Jamie, but they didn’t undestand SL to actually make any money 🙂
[2012/01/17 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Seren
[2012/01/17 15:46]  Lem Skall: Jamie, not necessarily for money, although many did expect that, but many people did it with the expectation that they will “own the world”
[2012/01/17 15:46]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): waiting for rezz on slow line. Hey all.
[2012/01/17 15:46]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): that sounds like what inworldz was trying to do in a way. Lower cost and keep a good scalability
[2012/01/17 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Really? Seren is here?
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey, she is!
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Arisia Vita: a red letter day for you Exti 🙂
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Well, hey, Seren!
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Merit Coba: Oh wow. excuse me…
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: so says radar!
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Merit Coba: Bows to the celebrity
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: My two favourite people are here!
[2012/01/17 15:47]  DoctorPartridge Allen: prob with the open grids is they have little audience and little pre-built data, it’s a leap back in time to 2004
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Lem Skall: aw, ty, Extie
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): hey love
[2012/01/17 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey love..
[2012/01/17 15:48]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Indeed – network effects.
[2012/01/17 15:48]  Merit Coba: have a nice day gazing at the sun
[2012/01/17 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: HmmGMMbmmblll
[2012/01/17 15:48]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Part of the draw for WoW – all your friends are there, so that’s where you go.
[2012/01/17 15:48]  Morgaine Dinova: When an activity in-world results in money being earned, then it’s easier to see Extie’s question as being an extension of the situation in RL. I wonder if there is more to it that that though. Many people like to “work” even when there is no money involved. I’m not sure I really understand the issue, but I think it’s deeper than about “earning”.
[2012/01/17 15:49]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @tara – same applies wherever u go. dull to build in an empty world
[2012/01/17 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Jamie would you still work in Sl if you got no Lnden dollars for your efforts? Say, whatver you make anyone can have, just as you can have anything others have made?
[2012/01/17 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, this is not my night.
[2012/01/17 15:49]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): Seren steals time from work games..
[2012/01/17 15:49]  Sophiekittycat: most people work in sl for no monney , builders in historical sims, art galleries, moderators, we work for the pleasure to build something , to create
[2012/01/17 15:49]  Jamie Marlin: Extropia-yes I would. As far as I am concerned, L& is just a way for someone to say they like my work
[2012/01/17 15:50]  Lem Skall: I’m still saying that many people “worked” not for money but for “your world, your imagination” and that was taken away
[2012/01/17 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: A got a stupid spammy phone call, came back to find Firestorm crashed, and then somebody had taken my seat! 😛
[2012/01/17 15:50]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @Ext – i suspect many developers would do it for free – or for a non monetary form of social currency
[2012/01/17 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought you moved for Seren, Zo.
[2012/01/17 15:50]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): well. it depends. some things, most things, I do in SL just becuse I enjoy doing them. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be delighted to receive money among other values from doing some of them.
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Indeed, Lem – “It all starts with a box.” One of my objections to sculpties & meshes.
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: the actual work that’s done for free in SL are the third party viewers
[2012/01/17 15:51]  DoctorPartridge Allen: say for example there was a social valuation system to give credit *fame* to people whose work was heavily consumed
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: :p
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ll just stay over here in the spottycat section. 🙂
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree. I believe the majority of residents would still work on their projects and stuff even without the reward of linden doillars.
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Morgaine Dinova: Haha Zob
[2012/01/17 15:51]  DoctorPartridge Allen: also – if everything is for fun, you lose some ‘responsibility’ motives
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Sophiekittycat: i disagree miss ivy, look at thoses doing great sims, the moderators, the builders , theses ^people who work together to create something for free
[2012/01/17 15:51]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): money being a lot more fungible and exchangeable for other things in and out of world than say reputation.
[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: if i build a gadget and sell 10k, then it breaks on a linden upddate
[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i’m obliged to fix based on revenue gained
[2012/01/17 15:52]  Lem Skall: pfft, reputation, how do you measure that?
[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: amd i obliged if it’s just reputation?
[2012/01/17 15:52]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): depends on the update. Could say the same for making a web app and being at mercy of browsers.
[2012/01/17 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: sell it from an alt and make a run with the money when shit breaks! 😀
[2012/01/17 15:52]  DoctorPartridge Allen: social networks like twitter measure reputation based mostly on popularity
[2012/01/17 15:52]  Jamie Marlin: I do appreciate when someone buys something, though… it means that they se value in something I made, which is a nice compliment
[2012/01/17 15:53]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): the best type of work is the work you love to do and money in the same line of interest is always a plus
[2012/01/17 15:53]  DoctorPartridge Allen: which is of course problematic lem
[2012/01/17 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: though generally LL is doing a rather fine job at keeping stuff backwards compatible
[2012/01/17 15:53]  Lem Skall: reputation and popularity are not the same
[2012/01/17 15:53]  DoctorPartridge Allen: but how about forum models -where reputation is given from others based on your action / interaction
[2012/01/17 15:54]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @ivy – agree, i’ve had more trouble porting to OS than i ever had with LL changes
[2012/01/17 15:54]  DoctorPartridge Allen: OS = Open Sim
[2012/01/17 15:54]  Jamie Marlin: LL tried something like that in the early days, allowing you to ‘rate’ other people. It never caught on
[2012/01/17 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: and rightfully so
[2012/01/17 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: rating people is crap
[2012/01/17 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: That rating system lasted quite a while actually.
[2012/01/17 15:54]  Morgaine Dinova: SL is a bad example to examine I think, because profits in L$ are exchangeable for US$, so activity here is quite strongly related to work in RL, and it’s easier to see it as “work” and hence deserving remuneration because of this. But in a world where there is no cash, the question becomes more interesting.
[2012/01/17 15:54]  Sophiekittycat: rating other people is always so superficial
[2012/01/17 15:55]  Lem Skall: Ivy, then so is reputation crap
[2012/01/17 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: and yes popularity is not reputation
[2012/01/17 15:55]  Jamie Marlin: It was never really used, though, in my experience
[2012/01/17 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: I know people who had ratings worth tens of thousands of Linden$
[2012/01/17 15:55]  DoctorPartridge Allen: Why is that Ivy
[2012/01/17 15:55]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): exchange to real world currency is a good thing though
[2012/01/17 15:55]  DoctorPartridge Allen: couldn’t a similar system be used to help with the maturity ratings issues?
[2012/01/17 15:55]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): all commercial grids have this characteristic
[2012/01/17 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s why: http://xkcd.com/937/
[2012/01/17 15:56]  Morgaine Dinova: It’s only a good thing for augmentalists, unwilling to accept isolation between their virtual worlds 🙂
[2012/01/17 15:56]  DoctorPartridge Allen: Anyone here on Deviant Art?
[2012/01/17 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: It was abused, Jamie. People used to make up groups just so lots could get together and rate each other highly. Used to be, if you got positive rating that week your weekly stipend got a rise.
[2012/01/17 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: I am sorta kinda.
[2012/01/17 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: I lurve DA!
[2012/01/17 15:56]  DoctorPartridge Allen: seems to me rating works fairly well in that network.
[2012/01/17 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: in DA you can only really be rated up
[2012/01/17 15:56]  Lem Skall: an alt of my primary is on deviant art
[2012/01/17 15:57]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): yes I know about Deviant Art. A good chunk of Mass Effect was contracted threw there
[2012/01/17 15:57]  DoctorPartridge Allen: maybe there’s a paradigm there
[2012/01/17 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Luh!
[2012/01/17 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: Da is a great site and mass effect is a wonderfull game
[2012/01/17 15:57]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): *wavies*!!
[2012/01/17 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: DA has ratings?
[2012/01/17 15:57]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): One cure for rewarding creators based on how much their creations are vauled by others is to monitor how much usage/views/plays a creation gets and divide some pool of funds or assign worth some way based on that.
[2012/01/17 15:57]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @dust walker, can you elaborate
[2012/01/17 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: I am on Deviant art, Let me show you all.
[2012/01/17 15:58]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @zobeid – indirectly – you can favorite and such
[2012/01/17 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: Don’t look, everyone! It’s a trap!
[2012/01/17 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: also, DA does not rate people for being nice or assholes, it’s “just” art
[2012/01/17 15:58]  DoctorPartridge Allen: smiles and wonders where we’re looking / not looking
[2012/01/17 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: and if you want to rate content creators in SL – that’s already there on the marketplace
[2012/01/17 15:58]  DoctorPartridge Allen: @ivy – valid points – both
[2012/01/17 15:58]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): at the end of the day it is how valuable you and your stuff are judged to be by others..
[2012/01/17 15:59]  Morgaine Dinova: Asshole Rating [0 .. 10]
[2012/01/17 15:59]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Deviant art has artist that you can commision for things and some of the Mass Effect stuff was done threw there after they submitted to the section’s and they have hired for other games also for art from deviant art
[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: that valuation seems to work better on marketplace than in world
[2012/01/17 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: so to what extent does rating explain the willingness to work in MMORPGs/ online worlds?
[2012/01/17 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: lol rating is as contest , it is all on friends who will rate at max because they like you even if it is crap
[2012/01/17 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[2012/01/17 15:59]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): how is the marketplace valuation done exactly? by reviews or what?
[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i think at least some willingness to work is about ‘belonging’
[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you join a guild
[2012/01/17 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t think we do any more work in virtual worlds for free than we do outside of it
[2012/01/17 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok! rating people is now officially dead. Next topic.
[2012/01/17 15:59]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you work for a bar or dance club
[2012/01/17 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: We all have our little hobbies.
[2012/01/17 16:00]  Lem Skall: Sophie but then that matters how many friends you have
[2012/01/17 16:00]  DoctorPartridge Allen: you work with a guild of builders
[2012/01/17 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo interesting. Can you elaborate, Doctorpartiridge?
[2012/01/17 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s in human nature to work for free, be it in SL, WoW, or just collaborating to some open source project
[2012/01/17 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: the desire to work in online worlds is because here we not work for money but we work because we can create we can fullfill our dream and desires ,we can be part of a community not part of a machine
[2012/01/17 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: SL being SL has nothing to do with that
[2012/01/17 16:00]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i used to be suprised and confused when people would im me and want to join my building guild
[2012/01/17 16:00]  DoctorPartridge Allen: to me it was a solo affair
[2012/01/17 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: I saw where somebody filled a whole room with a Lego city. $200,000 worth of Legos. So it’s not unique to virtual worlds.
[2012/01/17 16:01]  Sophiekittycat: it is collaboration it is creation it is art it is community
[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: but many of the really great stuff is built by guilds, groups of people
[2012/01/17 16:01]  Jamie Marlin: Isn’t rating an example of ‘working for no monetary reward’? How is that off topic?
[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: same thing with great dance spots, music venues
[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: they’re all run by groups
[2012/01/17 16:01]  Sophiekittycat: working in rl is a pain and we need to do it with no choice, in sl we choose what we want to do and it give us fun
[2012/01/17 16:01]  DoctorPartridge Allen: no individual can do all the work –
[2012/01/17 16:01]  Sophiekittycat: the main world is fun the second is dream
[2012/01/17 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Kk FOR NEXT HALF HOUR…CAN RL WORK LEARN FROM MMORPGS/ONLINE WORLDS AND MAKE JOBS FUN ENOUGH THAT EMPLOYEES WOULD WORK FOR FREE?
[2012/01/17 16:02]  DoctorPartridge Allen: agree with sofi – we do it for fun, for social connections
[2012/01/17 16:02]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): for some maybe
[2012/01/17 16:02]  DoctorPartridge Allen: lol – not unless food becomes free Exti
[2012/01/17 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, you still get paid, but you go because it is fun not just because your bills demand you go get a job.
[2012/01/17 16:02]  Jamie Marlin: Extropia? Yes – provided that someone else is around to provide food and clothing and housing
[2012/01/17 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: extropia lol rl work is for food and paying bills, online work is for the pleasure and the feeling to create
[2012/01/17 16:03]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): RL would require group collaborative tools. not possible in all areas
[2012/01/17 16:03]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): Great question. Not sure. Mostly lame attempts to do so far. Would be great to hire the people that know what engages us in games to apply their knowledge to redesigning parts of RL workflow.
[2012/01/17 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: people don’t work in RL *just* for food and paying bills
[2012/01/17 16:03]  DoctorPartridge Allen: It’s a good point though – why aren’t rl jobs in general as appealing
[2012/01/17 16:03]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): I don’t understand enough of what that might look like to have much of an answer as to how much it could be done.
[2012/01/17 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: there is people working for free too in rl the voluntaries who work in associations, thoses helping homeless, working in shelters or with children
[2012/01/17 16:03]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): And yet – a Farmer may feel that there’s fun in a field of growing wheat.
[2012/01/17 16:03]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): If we can capture *that*…
[2012/01/17 16:04]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Then the food issue drops off the plate.
[2012/01/17 16:04]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): the ‘lol for food’ argument seems to be lended from classical capitalism
[2012/01/17 16:04]  Morgaine Dinova: One simple answer to the final question of the topic is “Interactive 3D worlds arose first in gaming, and since you play a game for enjoyment and not for remuneration, that view has persisted as 3D virtual worlds developed.” Ie. “Work? What work? You’re here to play!” 😛
[2012/01/17 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes that is the question I want us to discuss. Howe come RL jobs are not as appealing as work in MMORPGS?
[2012/01/17 16:04]  Fblurbg: Work that’s compulsory, or rather, work you experience as compulsory, is generally less fun than things you do simply because you feel like it. Go figure.
[2012/01/17 16:04]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Often, Extropia, it’s because of time constraints and directions to do things in ways that don’t feel right.
[2012/01/17 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: So it is work cunningly disquised as play?
[2012/01/17 16:05]  Jamie Marlin: There is some places where fun work for nothing occurs in RL…. for example, I have had to explain to my sons why a career as a v’video game tester’ will probably not work out
[2012/01/17 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: the work in MMORPGs isn’t very appealing really Extie, people who do it get burned out and fast
[2012/01/17 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: because working with customers howling at you , or a slaver boss, or working at chain doing same gest over hours cant be fun
[2012/01/17 16:05]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): And yet, Jamie – there *are* people with exactly that career.
[2012/01/17 16:05]  DoctorPartridge Allen: i think lack of creative venues may contribute to the desire to work in virtual spaces.
[2012/01/17 16:05]  Doll (jo.soosung): in rl, often, people can’t do the job of their dreams because they are not qualified enough, luckly there are job they can do, which are not as nice
[2012/01/17 16:05]  Jamie Marlin: Yes, there are… but they have other sources of income, mostly.
[2012/01/17 16:05]  DoctorPartridge Allen: or is it fun cunningly disguised as work?
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: let me repeat it – the *work* that you do in MMORPGS is *NOT FUN*
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: Right now I have IRL just enough food to eat. Seriously, after an agency pays my rent and essential bills, what’s left is food – only. No clothes, no travel expenses, no going out. Food only. Worse, I am actually running a negative expense and losing savings and find myself not catching up in debt payments., I am listless and unmotivated and often anxious about the future. Nobody will hire me. I don’t see MMO’s in *ANY* sensible manner have any sensible effect on the existing established economies. Which as allready pretty much a contrivance and a scam to begin with.
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Lem Skall: in rl you chose to work on something that you can do well to make money, in mmorpg’s you work on what you like, not on what you do well
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: In SL, because the owner of a place that makes L$ revenue can turn that into US$, if he/she employs “workers” in the venue and doesn’t pay them then it is very much disguised labour. But that’s why I think SL is an abberrant example to address.
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Jamie Marlin: Ivy – but the reward you get from that work is fun.
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Sophiekittycat: Ivy when you do a work in an mmorpg as guild leader officer you do it becaus eyou like it
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): There’s a lot of cases where X has the job Y would dearly love to have and vice-versa. If we could find those, and arrange swaps…
[2012/01/17 16:06]  Doll (jo.soosung): lol
[2012/01/17 16:07]  Doll (jo.soosung): 5 million people want to be that one astronaught
[2012/01/17 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Jamie: yes, but then you work for the reward, *not for free*. You can also buy cool stuff for money you make in your daily job, but an xbox won’t make your job any more cool.
[2012/01/17 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: I have recently *literally* prodtituted myself, at my age. That is, sexual favors for money. To eat. So seriously, this discussion IS a little bit white class privilege. It has very little bearing on like, “reality”.
[2012/01/17 16:07]  Sophiekittycat: astronaughty ?
[2012/01/17 16:07]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): almost tara and tweak them to have micro rewards or such to make it game like for the ones that want it. LOL
[2012/01/17 16:08]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): not really an astronaughty job, more astro-dangerous
[2012/01/17 16:08]  Sophiekittycat: who here was never part of a community work, doing something for free just for the pleasure to be part of a project .?
[2012/01/17 16:08]  Lem Skall: some of the stuff being said here is serious but I always wonder how seriously I should take it
[2012/01/17 16:08]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): raises twig
[2012/01/17 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Me, last time I did community work, in the formal sense was 1995.
[2012/01/17 16:08]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I’d advise always taking it seriously, Lem.
[2012/01/17 16:09]  Morgaine Dinova: Khannea: Maslow applies, as always. One needs the roof over one’s head and the food on the table before it is deemed as important to feed the spirit.
[2012/01/17 16:09]  Lem Skall: pfft, Tara, no way
[2012/01/17 16:09]  Doll (jo.soosung): most people work in rl to live, they don’t hate their jobs but they don’y love them. what the job does do is pay the bills
[2012/01/17 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can raise hand too, I don’t do anything that can be labeled as “work” in SL by principle.
[2012/01/17 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: Yep Morgaine. That’s why I can;t get around to focussing on anytjing the last year. I am too terrified by and large to do anything of consequence.
[2012/01/17 16:09]  Morgaine Dinova: 😦
[2012/01/17 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: LET ALONE sl.
[2012/01/17 16:10]  Doll (jo.soosung): a better job (which ironically probably means more stress) pays for more stuff in non job time
[2012/01/17 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: though I did some community work in the past – and I did *not* do it in SL or WoW :p
[2012/01/17 16:10]  Morgaine Dinova: Morgaine Dinova gives Khannie a virtual cookie
[2012/01/17 16:10]  Sophiekittycat: i have been for months moderatrice on the frenc continent more than 20 sims; doing security helping noobs, creating shows, helping people, yes by moment it was a work but my god what a feeling to be part of such an huge project , to promote art and culture and fun
[2012/01/17 16:10]  Doll (jo.soosung): very unlike ‘jobs’ in sl
[2012/01/17 16:11]  Doll (jo.soosung): people choose to be in sl and get involved, in rl you have to work
[2012/01/17 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: yes, and people do that kind of stuff in the flesh world too 🙂
[2012/01/17 16:11]  Lem Skall: I didn’t know there was a French continent
[2012/01/17 16:11]  Sophiekittycat: work in online worlds is not seen as work but at participating to projects
[2012/01/17 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Again, isn’t all this the foibles of an extremely privileged and very technologically empowered (and hence fairly “safe) small segment of society?
[2012/01/17 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: again, same can be said about the RL work that you do for free
[2012/01/17 16:12]  Sophiekittycat: lem we have some big french communities who became official hubs for several world countries
[2012/01/17 16:12]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Maybe. Khannea – and yet, you and I, in situations hardly “safe”, participate in it.
[2012/01/17 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: You’re al; french nobles just a year before the Guillotines discussing the merits of ‘riding in horses’ as meaningful work.
[2012/01/17 16:12]  Sophiekittycat: in sl most countries have their voluntary communities that became official hubs welcome beginners promote their country and culture
[2012/01/17 16:13]  Sophiekittycat: french nobles riding horse as job was meaning going to battle mainly and this is not fun too 🙂
[2012/01/17 16:13]  Lem Skall: oh battle is fun in mmorpg
[2012/01/17 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m unaware of any polish hub, if there is one – please do NOT inform me about it, I don’t even want to see it
[2012/01/17 16:14]  Morgaine Dinova: Khannea: All Thinkers topics make the presumption that the people involved have the freedom to examine issues free of the need to find food an shelter. So I guess it’s true, thinking is for the priviledged, at least for an hour.
[2012/01/17 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: I bet arab elites in Camel racing isn’t even “fun” in the strictest sense. But it sure is privilege.
[2012/01/17 16:14]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Here is free for the society and from a good person and shows another non SLhttp://affordabletechnology.com.au/home.htm though the CS (counter strike ) people did there mod for free also at first
[2012/01/17 16:15]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): so you have virtual and non virtual free work being done all over
[2012/01/17 16:15]  Sophiekittycat: yes free work is what we do because we like it or because moraly we have to do it
[2012/01/17 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: I have shelter. I have food. Beyond that my chances of getting anything more are very sparse. As a consequence I find myself doing very little other than things traditionally very low on the Pyramid of Maslow. In my case, largely stuff related to keeping my epnefrine glands buzzing.
[2012/01/17 16:16]  Sophiekittycat: my partner in sl work rl as librarian and then after her work she work for free in a shelter for beaten and abused women
[2012/01/17 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: dust: yes, and it’s not exclusive to, or amplified in virtual worlds
[2012/01/17 16:16]  Sophiekittycat: working for money exist because food is a concept we cant ignore
[2012/01/17 16:18]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): for getting ‘free work done’ it’s probably better going back in technology than forward. as in ancient slavery
[2012/01/17 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: but lot of people act for free ( i dont call it work) because they like it because they think things need to be done
[2012/01/17 16:18]  Morgaine Dinova: Which is why I consider SL an abberrant case, since so many people work in this world as a means of earning RL income. It reduces the question to pure RL, at least as far as they are concerned.
[2012/01/17 16:18]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): now if you all had food water housing and energy to run your stuff .Would you not want to help in some action that grabs you or that interest’s you to see it threw, and or if it can be done in some cases.
[2012/01/17 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: you should call it “work”, the thing you do to earn a living is not “work”, it’s just a “job”
[2012/01/17 16:19]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): or share your art or some peice of work
[2012/01/17 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: Morgaine i dont really know people who earn enougth in sl to live in rl
[2012/01/17 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is a TEDx talk I can link where a guy explains a difference between the words
[2012/01/17 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: most money creators gain go to pay rents
[2012/01/17 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: What happens to minds when food and the very spartan basic necessities are met, but there is the constant looming threat from populist politics one might lose it. It seriously fucks with my creative ability. It has for the last year. Thats why I think people have been logging less hours in SL – many people out there are too scared to have any real fun, or vent any creative surplus in SL.
[2012/01/17 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: job is meaningless labor, work has direction
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: Job implies working for others. Work is more general.
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Jamie Marlin: Bye all – being called away by RL!
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: CVyu Jamie :-0
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Jamie
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: bye jamie
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: Go and work Jamie!
[2012/01/17 16:20]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Tc jamie
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Morgaine Dinova: lol
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye sis!
[2012/01/17 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: ok i need to go for a moment , not paid work in sl call me 🙂
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): I have to run too. Boss just walked in. And he thought I was on FB. 🙂
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Seren
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: Ouch! Sacrilege!
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Seren (serendipity.seraph): *kisses Extropia and poofs*
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Morgaine Dinova: Cyu Seren
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: that facebook got some graphics update, eh?
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Now I am lonely
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: ah, better.
[2012/01/17 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: Looks like I got here just in time to leave.
[2012/01/17 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu gropes the insides ofg Trophy’s legs
[2012/01/17 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Nah you got ten minutes, Scarp.
[2012/01/17 16:22]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Please don’t mark me Zo. 😉 Hahaha had to joke
[2012/01/17 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Just noticed multi poofing…
[2012/01/17 16:22]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Scarp 🙂
[2012/01/17 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: just people poofing to work
[2012/01/17 16:23]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): oh nice cat AVI morgaine
[2012/01/17 16:23]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): cartoon like
[2012/01/17 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey! … look zobi just territorially marked the inconspicuous Bush there.
[2012/01/17 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we can agree that people will be needing to work to earn money for necessities for the forseeable future. But can work learn from games to make jobs something fun to do?
[2012/01/17 16:24]  Morgaine Dinova: Work, job, passtime, occupation, hobby … the problem with all these terms is that they are so horribly tied to a single world. I don’t think we have the vocabulary to express what’s actually going on when we “work” in a world and that activity is not translatable into dollars.
[2012/01/17 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: no and it doesn’t need to. People will do work for free if they have time on their hands and means to do something interesting. If you didn’t have to do anything you would end up doing some work eventually just to kill the bloody time :P.
[2012/01/17 16:25]  Morgaine Dinova: Hehe
[2012/01/17 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: I have for some time predicted that very soon (and maybe allready) for a large segment of people in society (the people furthest removed from SL by and large) our currenteconomies will not generate enough money for them, for themost basdic of necessities, even if they expended the most extreme of personal sacrifices and efforts. In other words, economy “isn’t working anymore”.
[2012/01/17 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Can we make coal mining fun? (I hear the pay is great, by the way.)
[2012/01/17 16:26]  Lem Skall: Extie, I think that diversity is an important factor in games so you can change what you do every once in a while, but that may not be feasible in RL, you just do the same thing because that’s what is needed or it’s the only thing you’re good at
[2012/01/17 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: only if mines get invaded by zombies at night
[2012/01/17 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, what if kids raised on videogames expect jobs to be as fulfilling? Will companies that incorporate a game-like structure into the business have an advantage?
[2012/01/17 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: Great idea Zobi. Lots of senior citiizens without a job, that love the warmth down there in the coal mines.
[2012/01/17 16:26]  Morgaine Dinova: Zob: Thought experiment: Say a coal mine used equipment that is controlled by “workers” in a virtual world hitting a virtual coalface with virtual picks. Is it work?
[2012/01/17 16:27]  Morgaine Dinova: RL coal mine
[2012/01/17 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: then they end up being unemployed living on welfare, while polish immigrants come and do their jobs for half the price with a smile on their faces :).
[2012/01/17 16:27]  Lem Skall: Ender’s Game: turns out it was real
[2012/01/17 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: We use Mexicans for that here, Ivy.
[2012/01/17 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: I think working for free for companies that aren’t charities came to be PRECISELY because cynical corporate executives could see that they could exploit the desire of people who wanted to perform certain jobs. Same idea with the so called ‘interns’ that many professions use now.
[2012/01/17 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: I’m aware 🙂
[2012/01/17 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Morg in Star Wars Galaxies there is a job in which you have to make medicine. What if, somehow, your efforts were helping actual new medicine to be researched and created?
[2012/01/17 16:28]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): we should think about automation regarding coal mines, before trying a gamyfication solution
[2012/01/17 16:28]  Lem Skall: Ivy, move to Poland then
[2012/01/17 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I live in Poland, lol
[2012/01/17 16:29]  Lem Skall: what polish imigrants then?
[2012/01/17 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: the ones in UK
[2012/01/17 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Aha. Affluience causes economic invalidity, as a percentage of the work force falls into unemployability after 1-2 generations. They used to call that decadence? Me I am not so sure. Maybe in “non-decadent” places all those people simply died a while ago because of “natural” attrition. No gamer poles in poland, they all got put in Russian Gulags?
[2012/01/17 16:29]  Morgaine Dinova: I know one Polish word: kartofel 🙂
[2012/01/17 16:29]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): Extropia, yes companies that incorporate a game-like structure into the business strategy will have an advantage for sure
[2012/01/17 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: or anywhere else in EU
[2012/01/17 16:29]  Lem Skall: then emigrate to UK too
[2012/01/17 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t need to emigrate to UK, I don’t do unskilled labor
[2012/01/17 16:30]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): luh throws a Kartoffel at Morg’s general direction
[2012/01/17 16:30]  Morgaine Dinova: Morgaine Dinova ducks
[2012/01/17 16:30]  Lem Skall: then DO unskilled labor
[2012/01/17 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: why?
[2012/01/17 16:30]  Lem Skall: why not?
[2012/01/17 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: KK almost time up. so why DO people work for free or even pay for the priviledge to grind away in mmorpgs?
[2012/01/17 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Because some people would rather die than clean toilets?
[2012/01/17 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s a hobby! There have always been hobbies.
[2012/01/17 16:31]  Lem Skall: then die
[2012/01/17 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: the question was about people grown up on video games having expectations of their jobs beign fun
[2012/01/17 16:31]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): the rl and virtual worlds are melding – the companies who get on board will be able to not only pay workers for rl jobs but will also i’m sure get free work from employees doing the fun creative work in virtual worlds
[2012/01/17 16:31]  luh (luisa.bourgoin): must be some fun component, and surely implies an amount of luxury too
[2012/01/17 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: I said they will be umemployed living on welfare, immigrants doing their job is just a side story :p
[2012/01/17 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: They have an alternative Lem. /me shnows you a fucking Guillotine.
[2012/01/17 16:32]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: the closest I get to it is because they’re mentally in “game mode”. It’s entertainment, even if it’s the activity we associate with “work” in RL.
[2012/01/17 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: for the same reason they do in RL
[2012/01/17 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Is SL work? I thought it was psychotherapy and antidepressant.
[2012/01/17 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: the premise od the discussion is wrong in general
[2012/01/17 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: MMORPGs are not an exception to anything here
[2012/01/17 16:33]  Fblurbg: As long as there’s an element of compulsion, as long as it’s a matter of survival I don’t see how things are going to change radically. I mean certainly there are jobs that people like doing, because they involve activities that they wouldn’t mind performing even if there was no money involved. Research, creating art, etc.
[2012/01/17 16:33]  JazzieJ (jmwwhg): haha khannea
[2012/01/17 16:33]  Lem Skall: I don’t think a lot of people “grind away” in mmorpg’s, at least not for long
[2012/01/17 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: the question of today is like “Why is USA the best country on the planet?” – well, is it?
[2012/01/17 16:33]  Lem Skall: Ivy, because god made it so
[2012/01/17 16:33]  Morgaine Dinova: Ivy: in typical MMOs you can’t translate effort into US$, so SL is in a different category, an “impure” case.
[2012/01/17 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I rest my case 😀
[2012/01/17 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: I think, based on a study I read, it is becaise MMORPGs give much more direct information regarding your work and how it relates to your overall performance. In MMORPGs you get a lot if info about how well you are doing, little rewards and incentives to keep going for the next big trophy.
[2012/01/17 16:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: Morgaine: yes you can, guildies of mine sold gold, in fact, two of them made a living out of it
[2012/01/17 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!
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