THINKERS JAN 10 2012: NEUROSCIENCE AND LAW

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/01/10 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: New couch will better anims on it! The brown one
[2012/01/10 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic for discussion is…
[2012/01/10 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lots of choice
[2012/01/10 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: NEUROSCIENCE AND LAW: Neuroscience is becoming increasingly relevant to the law. If ‘my brain made me do it’ becomes a legitimate defense, what would the consequences be?
[2012/01/10 15:33]  TR Amat: I’ve got the neuro, and, you’ve got the science? 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Gwyn
[2012/01/10 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Gwynie!
[2012/01/10 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn
[2012/01/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yoo hoo 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok..well. in what circumstances would it be a legitimake defence?
[2012/01/10 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t really see it as a viable defense, at best it can decrease the punishment, but if your brain made you do it, it can make you do it again?
[2012/01/10 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: So… There is already an insanity defense, though it doesn’t work all that often. What is really changed?
[2012/01/10 15:34]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: smoochies gwyn
[2012/01/10 15:34]  TR Amat: You would need to believe that “you” are not your brain to use that as a defence?
[2012/01/10 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Cleo!)
[2012/01/10 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tr: and even if you do believe that (I do!) would a jury accept that as defence? 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: could it serve the prosecution?
[2012/01/10 15:35]  Chraeloos: I agree with insanity, what’s the difference?
[2012/01/10 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Only to prove insanity lol
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Chraeloos
[2012/01/10 15:36]  TR Amat: So, you need to be a dualist? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: insanity can be cured?
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no idea, TR!
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: not necessarily
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s a good question!
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: or “cured” :p
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: haha
[2012/01/10 15:36]  TR Amat: If your brain isn’t making you do it, then, what is?
[2012/01/10 15:36]  Chraeloos: Are you suggesting that scientists or surgeons could change the way your brain works?
[2012/01/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe that even “dualism” can be cured 😉
[2012/01/10 15:37]  Chraeloos: Without you realizing it?
[2012/01/10 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: NOt really TR. Some people have successfully claimed they sleepwalked while committing a crime, and got the sentence quashed. That is not a dualist plee, well not classic dualism.
[2012/01/10 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: what if instead of prison you’d be sentenced to lobotomy instead? 😛
[2012/01/10 15:37]  TR Amat: Sufficient head trauma can ‘cure’ all sorts of problems. 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lobotomy is not accepted in most Western countries anyway.
[2012/01/10 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yes 😉
[2012/01/10 15:38]  Sophiekittycat: lobotomy is just a kind of soft guillotine
[2012/01/10 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: pretty much, yes
[2012/01/10 15:38]  TR Amat: I had a ‘uncle’ (family friend) who’d had a full frontal lobotomy for extreme alcoholism – he was a bit strange…
[2012/01/10 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: “I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy”
[2012/01/10 15:38]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: isnt the idea that in order to be on trial, you have to be sane enough to help with your own defense and understand what is going on? i.e. not be psychotic
[2012/01/10 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: did he stop drinking (sorry if it sounds bad, just curious)?
[2012/01/10 15:39]  Sophiekittycat: probkem is to define sanity and insanity cleo
[2012/01/10 15:39]  TR Amat: He thought he’d have been dead if he kept on drinking. Instead, was someone who wasn’t him living on?
[2012/01/10 15:39]  Sophiekittycat: problem oops
[2012/01/10 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, I think it all hinges on whether whatever physical thing we are talking about can be controlled by the Will.
[2012/01/10 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I always had a problem with the issue that people have to be sane to stand trial. AFter all, someone who has murdered their wife in cold blood because of some reason or other and was perfectly aware of all that was going on… is definitely mentally insane for me
[2012/01/10 15:40]  TR Amat: I’ve come to the opinion that a lot of the time, a lot of people, aren’t rational. 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: will or free will? 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:40]  TR Amat: (That doesn’t necessary exclude me. 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: But what if neuroscience determines every crime can be attibuted to some kind of brain malfunction? In that case, is anyone really guilty?
[2012/01/10 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yes! that’s why they *are* people! 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: The Will as in the philosophical concept of Will.
[2012/01/10 15:41]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: the devil made me do it.
[2012/01/10 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: no I didn’t!
[2012/01/10 15:41]  Chraeloos: Philosophers and scientists are arguing that free will doesn’t exist
[2012/01/10 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah Extie… then the question is about the Jewish-Christian-inspired definition of “guilty”
[2012/01/10 15:41]  Sophiekittycat: sanity in trials is defined by can someone doinga bad act know that they doa bad act if no they cant go in jail but in hospital because prison is for people knowing they go in jail to repay to society
[2012/01/10 15:41]  TR Amat: I think a big issue is “consistent identity” – we only presecute people for things that they do while they’re being consistent?
[2012/01/10 15:41]  TR Amat: prosecute*
[2012/01/10 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Will and free will are different concepts
[2012/01/10 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: This way of looking at culpability migt create the attitude og looking at people with neurological impairments as if you don’t look at ;people, but rather as if you look at a piece of faulty equipment, This can have a dehumanizing effect. Like how you react when your friend has the black plague. You have a tendency to flee. You friend is now a threatening creature.
[2012/01/10 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: so, if I’m drunk, I can murder people at will?
[2012/01/10 15:42]  Sophiekittycat: gwyneth would not be at willa s you would have a will while drunk
[2012/01/10 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally, I choose to believe in the absence of free will.
[2012/01/10 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie: perhaps, perhaps
[2012/01/10 15:42]  TR Amat: If you are drunk, and do damage/harm, you are to blame for getting drunk in a place where you don’t have a minder. 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:42]  Sophiekittycat: while drunk would be unwilled homicid not willed homicid
[2012/01/10 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: What if China or some of those fascist countries says “we kill people who are insane”. Plain and simple, It saves money, we do those people a favor and we do society a favor.
[2012/01/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes, and I’m working to get my free will back! It takes time.
[2012/01/10 15:43]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i think sane is just meaning .. like oriented x3..
[2012/01/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: so I’d be convicted for getting drunk but not for being a murderess? 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: pity that they wouldn’t start at the top… heh heh
[2012/01/10 15:43]  Sophiekittycat: main problem is what is frontier between sanity and insanity ? is sanity a law fact a society fact or s cience fact ?
[2012/01/10 15:44]  TR Amat: Causing death by neligence, maybe?
[2012/01/10 15:44]  TR Amat: negligence*
[2012/01/10 15:44]  Sophiekittycat: are we sane because we act in what society consider normal or because science can sayou you are insane ?
[2012/01/10 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes but you all think in terms of culpability. In most of history people were looked at in terms of societal use. If you were useful, you lived. If yiu were a nuisance, you were discarded or even killed.
[2012/01/10 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: So if there is no free will, there is no responsibility. Therefore everyone is innocent including the prosecutors who make them guilty becasuse no one can do other than they do.
[2012/01/10 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sanity: average behaviour by the median person… or is it median behaviour by the average person?
[2012/01/10 15:44]  Chraeloos: Extie, aren’t many crimes already influenced by brain malfunctions?
[2012/01/10 15:45]  TR Amat: Doing stupid things while being drugged out of your mind should at least get you charged with negligence…
[2012/01/10 15:45]  Sophiekittycat: average people in humanity is greedy egoist an dnot very smart if you are not this you are insane
[2012/01/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: well, I was half-joking. I think that someone who gets drunk and then commits murder is even more dangerous than someone who doesn’t need to get drunk to commit murder, but that’s just me.
[2012/01/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Negligence is too soft, IMHO
[2012/01/10 15:45]  Chraeloos: Gwyneth I think it’s more referring to the fact that we are the way we are and therefore our lives are set for us, not that we cant choose but that the choice is an illusion?
[2012/01/10 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Negligence would ONLY apply, IMHO, if someone claimed that they had no idea about the effects of alcohol in their organism.
[2012/01/10 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: I know of one case. A man started to have lustful thoughts toward his daughter. They found a tumor in his brain pressing on the region that is responsile for sexual desire. They removed the tumor and the lustful thoughts went away. years later, they return and yes so did the tumor. Now..was this man to blame for his thoughts and any actions he may have carried out?
[2012/01/10 15:46]  TR Amat: I think a big point is the “consistent identity”, with (allegedly) consistent and predicatable behaviour. Part of the definition of a (responsible) individual…
[2012/01/10 15:46]  Sophiekittycat: there is in law several scales of killings , killing under alcohol is unwilled homicid not same at all than planned killing
[2012/01/10 15:46]  Chraeloos: I heard about that too, Extie
[2012/01/10 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: The question is what is the contextual value of accrediting free will, or “an insanity defense”. Of course it is the humane thing to do and I favor looking at neurological impairment. BUT it may turn out that this is a societal luxury, that comes at a cost. And we run the risk we overextend this relative cost. If we go to far to akcowledge neurological context in a proper manner, this may “snap back” and we may end up with a really nasty kind of fascism.
[2012/01/10 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is pointless to bring in the concept of ‘no free will’ or ‘choice is illusion’ in this type of discussion. Those premises negate the discussion from the start.
[2012/01/10 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chraeloos: I meant “free will” in a slightly different context. Free will is when we can act independently of external constraints (e.g. a situation) and internal ones (i.e. mostly driven by our emotions/instinct/(thoughts). Few people can act beyond both, so it’s a common assumption that “free will does not exist”
[2012/01/10 15:47]  Sophiekittycat: artcrash and if we dont trust in absolut free will ?
[2012/01/10 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I see his happen around me allready. People don’t give a flying fuck about people with a mental problem. Fopr the vast majority of people ‘the mad” can go and die.
[2012/01/10 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: What philosophers generally think is that we do not have total free will but are free withing certain constraints.
[2012/01/10 15:47]  Chraeloos: Ah ok Gwyneth
[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie, I know; I just happen to disagree — except, as said, in the case where someone is unaware of the effects of alcohol
[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes
[2012/01/10 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: If you want to talk about responsibility, you have to start with the PREMISE that choice and will are possible.
[2012/01/10 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: until someone proves to me that brain is a quantum machine I assume we have no free will 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d certainly agree that most philosophers generally have no free will, so they postulate that there is no free will (under your definition)
[2012/01/10 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Art! Yes 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:49]  TR Amat: Isn’t the evidence that at least a third of the population have mental health problems at some point in their lives? If so, disregarding mental illness is blatent stupidity. (Or, maybe, not totally rational. 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:49]  Sophiekittycat: responsability can exist even if full freewill not( exist, we have the responsability of what we can do but responability cant exist without things that push us in a side or another
[2012/01/10 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: We can all argue about the theory of this, But we live in a democracy and what if at some voters say “I don’t GIVE a fuck about what happens in a brain of a pedophyle and that he has a disorder, I want him to die screaming n boiling oil,. NOW”
[2012/01/10 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the Western world, 1/3 of the population is clinically diagnosed with some sort of depression — definitely a mental condition (even though it has physical effects, of course)
[2012/01/10 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: How you behave under the influence is culturally-determined. For instance, in England being drunk is associated with being loud and boorish. In experiments they ask peple to drink what they think is lots of alcohol (actually alcohol-free beer and wine) and English subjects act all boistrous.
[2012/01/10 15:50]  Chraeloos: Or an impossition by drug companies, Gwyneth
[2012/01/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My politically incorrect statement of the evening: pedophilia is also a social construct. 😉
[2012/01/10 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar suggests boiling all people in olive oil for aesthetic reasons.
[2012/01/10 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: I agree Gwyn.
[2012/01/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chraeloos: I’m not so cynical, but you might be very right!!
[2012/01/10 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: lol
[2012/01/10 15:50]  TR Amat: You need a lot of olive oil to boil someone – expensive?
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: oh yes, the power of polacebo 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *placebo even
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Sophiekittycat: talking of pedophilia is a trap gwyneth a speople will answer to it by emotion and forget that between of a third to half of pedophiles were too victims of pedophily
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Chraeloos: Watch the movie “fishheads” (thanks to Khannea)
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: I estimate about 450 euro. More if it is veregine oil. A nice young boy. A grown man would rate 700 euro in olive oil.
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I think that the problem in a trial is to be able to *prove* that “you” weren’t the one doing the act.
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Not that I have tried, this is just a guess.
[2012/01/10 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes I have watched it Craeloos.
[2012/01/10 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie: yes indeed
[2012/01/10 15:52]  TR Amat: I know people who get ‘drunk’ by being around people who are drinking, and, if drink alcohol themseves get depressed…
[2012/01/10 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Pedophile sounds like ‘someone who loves children’. Well, most of us do. It is kind of hardwired into us.
[2012/01/10 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: My brain is making me be snarky. But really Im innocent!
[2012/01/10 15:52]  Chraeloos: Khannea, your link to it was how I watched it
[2012/01/10 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: I’m like that lol — it’s cheaper, safer, and the police can’t fine me if I drive afterwards 😉
[2012/01/10 15:52]  Sophiekittycat: but do we speak of law responsability or of morality responability or of philisophical responsabilty ? none are the same
[2012/01/10 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Ohwwww 🙂
[2012/01/10 15:52]  Chraeloos: so thanks haha
[2012/01/10 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: I think it falls down to the problem of “resocialization” really. Does it really matter what makes the criminal commit crimes if it can’t be helped? We don’t isolate people because they are inherently, willingly, evil (by whatever measure), we do so because they are dangerous.
[2012/01/10 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: You get drunk by runnikng a script that affects your avvie, Gwyn;)
[2012/01/10 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good point Ivy
[2012/01/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe Sophie. Good question. Legally, I think that it’s a question of being able to *prove* it in court (which is only possible under common law systems anyway)
[2012/01/10 15:53]  TR Amat: Once you start making revenge and retribution a significant aim of the justice system, a lot of things don’t work too well…
[2012/01/10 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: pfft 😉 My aavatar is not my self 😉
[2012/01/10 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy’s point is good about just “isolation”
[2012/01/10 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other day I was defending that *all* prisons should offer all inmates free counselling.
[2012/01/10 15:54]  Sophiekittycat: law responsability consider only facts , morality consider society , and philosophy well it is ethic responability the individual and the absolut
[2012/01/10 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought they did?
[2012/01/10 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I guess the real issue is that science can give us some kind of tangible, objective indication of the defendant’s mental condition. Instead of, you know, “Look how crazy he acts!”
[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is not the same as saying that “all criminals are terminally insane”; but just recognising that all can be helped.
[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well, they don’t here, Extie)
[2012/01/10 15:55]  TR Amat: I’m not totally convinced that you don’t get truly evil people – I just hope that they are really thin on the ground.
[2012/01/10 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: talking of law responasbilitry will bring nothing as we come from different countries with different society morality
[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: but *can* science give us that?
[2012/01/10 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: You all skip by this for some reason. We all assume the law respects the constraints of neurology of free will. HOWVER this is in the context of the same neurological frailties pf VOTERS in the democratic systems. And what if the same voters may themselves be statistically be prone to demanding pathologically heavy sentencing? You end up with a very tricky dilemma – on the one hand rationality and compassion shows respct for people committing crimes under mental duress – under the other hand this compassion only exists in a context of democratic judicial oversight, and if the electorate wants fundamentally pathologically sentencing, we are back at square one.
[2012/01/10 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: but even if it does, does it mean we shouldn’t put the nutcrack to the jail?
[2012/01/10 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, psychology can only profile us according to statistical data…
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: I believe a lot of neuroscientists take issue with it as well, Zo. The science is just not that well established.
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, that’s an interesting point….
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: maybe in best case put him in the “special” jail
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: with soft walls and stuff :p
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would that “special” jail be?
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Cryogenics would be such a nice solution.
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: With padding on the walls 😉
[2012/01/10 15:56]  TR Amat: In the UK the death penalty was abolished even though a lot of voters said it should be retained.
[2012/01/10 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, good idea, Khannea ㋡
[2012/01/10 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: “His brain made him do it! Someone with that kind of defective brain should be locked up!”
[2012/01/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yes, this is then more a question of morals and less about laws
[2012/01/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ZO: … and retrained 😉
[2012/01/10 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: once again what perturb me is not the full responability zone sor full mentally irresponsable but the grey frontier the limit between free will and instinct or madness
[2012/01/10 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: “Oh, and these other people have the same defect, even though they haven’t committed any crimes yet. We better go ahead and lock them up too…”
[2012/01/10 15:57]  TR Amat: I think the death penalty was correctly abolished – but, you need to be a rich enough society to lock up people when it takes 20+yrs to figure-out they aren’t guilty.
[2012/01/10 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Precrime, Zo?
[2012/01/10 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sophie: that’s why those legal cases are so hard to judge….
[2012/01/10 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I saw that movie too! haha
[2012/01/10 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s the old: We aren’t punishing you for what you did, we’re punishing you for being the kind of person who would do it.
[2012/01/10 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: @TR: [15:55] jo: is actually wrong, death penalty for treason still exists. a lot voters want it back, is atually a right wong press led thing and not true, most people don’t want it in proper surveys
[2012/01/10 15:58]  Sophiekittycat: absolutely gwyneth nothing is black or white all is scales of colors
[2012/01/10 15:58]  TR Amat: Look at the levels of mental illness, and people with education problem in prisons?
[2012/01/10 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Precisely Zobeids. What if we end up with the flip side – Lets round up eveyone with the defect proactively. One day you are eating breakfast, then they grab you and you turn out to rate positive on being a potential serial torture killer. “Here look at this test developed by Montanso”!
[2012/01/10 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Armies used to kill their own soldiers for running away from being shot at by the enemy.
[2012/01/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Gandalf gave the best reason to abolish the death penalty: ‘he may deserve death, but many who have died deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be so hasty to deal at death’.
[2012/01/10 15:59]  TR Amat: I believe the death penalty still exists in the UK for treason and arson of a naval dockyard.
[2012/01/10 15:59]  Chraeloos: Go LoTR!
[2012/01/10 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: woot!
[2012/01/10 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: death is definitive if you mistake you cant give life back, but freedom you can give back
[2012/01/10 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: K’s cryogenics might be the best solution to that 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Unless you really believe in cryonics and take Khannea’s advice.
[2012/01/10 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: Then again, after a few years at Guantanano bay you can never give back the inmates the freedom of their sanity. All released are released irreversibly traumatized and broken.
[2012/01/10 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: boo! Gwynie crashed.
[2012/01/10 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb!
[2012/01/10 16:02]  TR Amat: A lot of people in WWII UK probably sufferend from PTSD, but, very few were treated – they just muddld on, and tried to live a good life.
[2012/01/10 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: torture is a psychological version of death penalty, guantanamo was done by beasts
[2012/01/10 16:02]  TR Amat: muddled*
[2012/01/10 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: back grr
[2012/01/10 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: It was not torture. It was aggressive interrogation;)
[2012/01/10 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: wb miss gwyneth
[2012/01/10 16:02]  Chraeloos: wb
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: and punching is not hurting but agressive caresses ?
[2012/01/10 16:03]  TR Amat: wb Gwyneth
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: wb Gwynie!
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: OH hello Rhi!
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks — I didn’t crash, my router made me do it!
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Rhi
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hi Rhi!
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Extie!
[2012/01/10 16:03]  Sophiekittycat: welcome rhi
[2012/01/10 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyns router DOES have free will, you know.
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Chraeloos: Hi Rhia
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Chrae!
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sorry, I’m late; my brain put me to sleep
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Chraeloos: Chraeloos chuckles.
[2012/01/10 16:04]  TR Amat: Hi Rhiannon
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Zoe!
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: no, but definitely a will of its own 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: There ate still severely stigmatizing diagnoses. For example in psychiary there is the “diagnosis” of borderline. It is rarely give out these days, if at all, since it was found to rapidly increase rats of suicide. It turned out that Borderline as a diagnosis (not an actual disease) caused suicide, because it causes everyone to actively shun the (alleged) patient. The diagnosis itself is a death sentence.
[2012/01/10 16:04]  TR Amat: Brains can do that sort of thing. Some apply dark chocolate. 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi… right!
[2012/01/10 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: alcohol can make you act like jerk and it doesn’t have free will either 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blame the brain.
[2012/01/10 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And the map put me on the mountain below; when I dashed here, hit my head. So decided to set in this chair instead
[2012/01/10 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: one good exemple of kind of responsabilities, what is your responsability when you are aske dto do something as to agressivily question ( torturing) someone ?
[2012/01/10 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the whole issue of free will vs. determinism, which this is a variation of, is, imo, a peudo-problme. You can be free & determined, depending on the causation
[2012/01/10 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: Sophie, I have fairly recently IRL and it was great fun for all involved.
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: According to Milligra,, delegate responsibility to the guy in the labcoat.
[2012/01/10 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha Khannea
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Sophiekittycat: it was nuremberg trial question, nazies said i am not guilty i was ordered to do it, same answers for guantanamo
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: *Milligram
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If “my brain made me do it,” as my neocortex and executive functions did it, then I’m free; if my somnombulism made me do it, then I am not.
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “A man strikes another with the stick. Do we get angry at the stick? After all,it’s the man behind it holding the stick. But the man did so out of anger. Why should we blame the man? Blame anger instead and erradicate it.” This was actually said by a great teacher of the past, I’m not making it up… 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We can cause vountary actions.
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: wise person.
[2012/01/10 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: He was, yes.
[2012/01/10 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: I blame anger
[2012/01/10 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
[2012/01/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar spanks anger
[2012/01/10 16:07]  Sophiekittycat: but the stick not have the possibility to refuse as someone who got orders can refuse
[2012/01/10 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Me next, Art! I will pay!
[2012/01/10 16:07]  TR Amat: I think they discovered that 3% just wouldn’t behave unethically, no matter how much pressure they put them under. So, what did the 3% have going for them, and, how do you ensure you get some of that? 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar spanks Extie
[2012/01/10 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And even though moral responsibility isn’t the same as legal responsibility, it is analogous, and we can simply ask the law’s question–is it fair to hold someonr responsible, given certain causal chains? Sometimes, yes; sometimes, no
[2012/01/10 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Our problem is by and large that damn Amygdala. I knew that damn Queen was up to no good.
[2012/01/10 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So in a perfect society, we wouldn’t put the person away in prison hoping they reflected on their crimes; instead, we would help them to get rid of the real causes that made them commit crimes.
[2012/01/10 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Ooo yeah!
[2012/01/10 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, there’s a right to be punished.
[2012/01/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A “right”:
[2012/01/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: interesting.
[2012/01/10 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, a right
[2012/01/10 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: what right is that?
[2012/01/10 16:08]  Sophiekittycat: a lot of people dig deep their moral responsability when they are asked by hierarchy or law reonsability to do something
[2012/01/10 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I blame the frontal cortex! She should know better!
[2012/01/10 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why? 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: frontal cortex ? as a blonde i have nothing to blame then ?
[2012/01/10 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: brain software
[2012/01/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or perhaps: what does the punishing accomplish? Isn’t nerradicating the real cause of having commited a crime better than “punishment”, which might work or not?
[2012/01/10 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Sophie!
[2012/01/10 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, I”m borrowing heavily from Morriss here, but consider if you were really treated as mentally ill for all your ciimes. And you were put away and treated against your will. If you resist your treatment, you are of course, disturbed. If you challenged your status in any way, you are disturbied. Punishment, you can challenge as unfair; it treats you more as a person.
[2012/01/10 16:09]  TR Amat: How do you go about building a “moral monitor” for yourself? So, you get to say “Wait a minute, I need to think about this”?
[2012/01/10 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Throw a stone in the dark, and it might hit the target or not. Turn on the lights, and it’s easier not to miss.
[2012/01/10 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, tht’s exactly how you do it.
[2012/01/10 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Prisons are not means to refklect. Prisons take men away from their active procreative years and reduce the chance they beget children. Essentially prisons are Euthanasia batteries. Sadly this strategy backfired, since in some parts of US society being an convicted inm,ate makes you a desirable procreative partner, a “tough guy” for some females. So what did legislators do? Other than langthen sentences and the three strikes rule? Create conditions that feminize inmates.
[2012/01/10 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Castration by proxy
[2012/01/10 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So anyone see my point?
[2012/01/10 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: TR, that is what Culture does. We may or may not agree….
[2012/01/10 16:11]  Sophiekittycat: too much people talking at same time for my poor brain to see point of everyone
[2012/01/10 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Some of this discussion reminds me of a great essay that Kurt Saxon wrote. He thought it was important for our freedom that crazy people be locked up — because the alternative was to treat everyone like a potential lunatic.
[2012/01/10 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, that’s also true.
[2012/01/10 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Like that old chestnut about the person with a weird mental illness in which he strenuously claims not to be insane. And the more he claims to be rational, the more the doctors areconvinced of his insanity.
[2012/01/10 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’m fine with putting people away that are a danger to themselves and to society. But no, Rhi, I don’t see the reasoning behind “punishment” in your example. I think that what you’re saying is that someone angry enough to kill his wife gets from society the oppoortunity at getting angry at an abstract thing instead (“punishment”). That’s just diverting the object of anger, not erradicating anger.
[2012/01/10 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The point of any ascription of responsibility is the underlying assumption of personhood
[2012/01/10 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (castration by proxy? oh my)
[2012/01/10 16:12]  TR Amat: If a wife kills her husband, are years of maltreatment relevant?
[2012/01/10 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: That was in “The Poor Man’s James Bond” by the way. Great book. 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: what was?
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: It also tells how to poison people using nicotine!
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe… well, statistically, that’s correct
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I do that every day!
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, that had nothing to do with what I said. The person who kills his wife, is given voluntary manslaughter due to mitigating circumstances (“She was a real bitch), has the opportunity of fairness applied to him. NOthing to do with him getting angry at anything when he’s incarcerated; he has the opportunity to be taken seriously if he says, “I am innocent; check the DNA, for God’s sake.” A crazy person daying that/ obviously paranoid.
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: they are, and chances that she will kill again are relatively low
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: given proper context everybody is capable of killing
[2012/01/10 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m still confused, Rhi.
[2012/01/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fairness during or after the trial?
[2012/01/10 16:14]  TR Amat: So, a man who kills his wife because “she nagged him”?
[2012/01/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, all the way through, but specifically after, during the punishment phase
[2012/01/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is “fair” in punishment?
[2012/01/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, don’t get lost in details;
[2012/01/10 16:14]  Sophiekittycat: fair is when everyone get the same for same act and responsability
[2012/01/10 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The right to challenge it, for one thing; as opposed to having no rights if “My brain made me do it.”
[2012/01/10 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, really; what is the fairness of “punish” someone?
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: justice system isn’t, or even shouldn’t try to be “fair”
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes. And then one day you are an angry old person, they lock you in a charge for 48 hours, pepper spray you in the face 10 times and then you die. Innocent, but a nuisance. http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/death-non-lethal-pepper-spray
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: the purpose of the justice system is to minimize the crime rate
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, contrast punishment with therapeutizing someone.
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, one of the purposes; others is to rehabilitate, to have retribution
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: what if the brain malfunction can be corrected or at least made irrelevant with conditioning or somethikng? What then, Rhi?
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on what you mean by “therapeusing” 😉
[2012/01/10 16:15]  Sophiekittycat: the purpose of justice system is not to minimize but to make criminals pay the debt to society
[2012/01/10 16:15]  TR Amat: The puspose of the justice system is (allegedly) to get revenge/retribution, to deter by setting an example, and to reform so the crime’s not repeated.
[2012/01/10 16:16]  TR Amat: purpose*
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant what Extie said.
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, what we ordinarily mean by it; locking you away in a mental institution and doing things to you to cure you.
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Roronoa1
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: I think we have grown out of the revenge thing these days, or are we still monkeys?
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So curing a person is BAD while punishing them is GOOD?
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Roronoa6: hi
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my.
[2012/01/10 16:16]  RR Ballgag 1.14 (mouth): whispers: Jo Soosung’s RR Ballgag 1.14 (mouth) has been unlocked by Ivy Sunkiller after 0:56:30 (detached 0 times)
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Sophiekittycat: revenge is not justice or you become a criminal too
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You know–electroshocks to the brain; putting you in freezing water, stripping you naked, giving you dangerous drugs. Therapy.
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Could we introduce market mechanisms in justice, offering the convict a range of “solutions” (including death as one) where the basket of solutions all made sure “the crime were no longer committed”, and the solution were applied at a fair and reasonable cost?
[2012/01/10 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. No., I was thinking of a far more effective method, lol
[2012/01/10 16:17]  whoa!!! the justice system is to evalulate if people break the law and how to protect society from them and/or punish them.
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Doll (jo.soosung): politians (the people) set the laws, and how the police should detect criminals,
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine with the “Protect the society” for them.
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Sophiekittycat: market in justice ? we have enougth market laws in life
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, oh, yes, slicing off parts of their brain.
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m questioning the effectiveness of “punishment”
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Rhi
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: But future treatments might bemore precise and effective than that, Rhi.
[2012/01/10 16:17]  TR Amat: The monkey desire for revenge is still a significant part of “justice”…
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m definitely not advocating *any* of that 😛
[2012/01/10 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: I disagree that the purpose of the justice system is revenge. The purpose is to incentivize people to obey the laws, so anarchy doesn’t prevail.
[2012/01/10 16:17]  Doll (jo.soosung): lowering the crime rate is about living standards and education, not punishment
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): As opposed to giving them the opportunity to find God, learn a trade, and restricting them to an environment that is safer than the one they came from
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: justice is punishment done in name of the society to avoiud lynchages do ne by citizens as revenge
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: well it shouldn’t be 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: or past treatments. I happen to have an effective methoid which will work on any human being … 😉
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t want “punishment” or “vengeance”. I do not trust democracy in its sickening blood orgy demand for retribution. I want the crime gone.
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Doll (jo.soosung): in a country where you have your hand chopped off for stealling bread, theft still occurs
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: it is what justice bring, same punishment for alls and not lynchages
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: what is it, Gwyn?
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: what K has said
[2012/01/10 16:18]  TR Amat: Anyone looking at the justice system gets a clearer idea of how much rationally humans generally manage to deploy.
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And back to Zoe’s point, we can and do distinguish between those who it is fair to punish and who it is fair to treat.
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Familiarisation with one’s own mind, Extie.
[2012/01/10 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: not a lot sadly amat
[2012/01/10 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): EVen with an assumption of causality, we can and do, do tht
[2012/01/10 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: What she said?
[2012/01/10 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m ok with giving them a trade, of course
[2012/01/10 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or education
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And even with providing a safer environment!
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: a criminal can be educated and smart , they are not all idiots and poors
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (both for them… and for society)
[2012/01/10 16:20]  TR Amat: Deterrence doesn’t work. Most criminals do not make a rational assessment. So…
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Roronoa6: i am new in this game what is this place?
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a philosophical discussion event, Roronoa6 — welcome 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Sophiekittycat: or would mean white richa nd educated you are honest but black poor and uneducated you desserve death
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Gwyn, do you think more progress in neuroscience leading to a clearer understanding of how the mind works will make us all better informed about how own minds?
[2012/01/10 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: I have no problems with humane, even pleasant enclaves where criminals are kept in communities, isolated from society at large,
[2012/01/10 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: You could stop MOST prison crime by only haveing one person to a cell.
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Roronoa6: ok i am listening
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Doll (jo.soosung): in a country that has a three strikes and your out rule, in other words one of the’highest’ prices for crime, they also have one of the highest rates of crime and people in prison percentage
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: In fact sometimes I fear this fucking planet is one of those.
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Sophie: the ones that aren’t idiots are not getting caught (Goldman Sachs f.e. :D)
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least, Extie, it might make legislators better informed 😉
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, without underfunding and not even really t ryings, 40% of the people coming out of prisons never regress. And get honest jobs. IMagine if we actually do what the prisons say they do?
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I would think the majority would be rehabilitated.
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 40%? Mmh. That’s good.
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Roronoa6 we are having a debate about neuroscience and law, particularly the defense ‘my brain made me do it’.
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: So 60% of people who go tio prisons ARE LOST ???
[2012/01/10 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: FUCK~!!!
[2012/01/10 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, at the moment, but they needn’t be.
[2012/01/10 16:22]  Roronoa6: ok i understand
[2012/01/10 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are always two ways at least to see the same numbers 😀
[2012/01/10 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): With proper fundating, training, teaching
[2012/01/10 16:22]  TR Amat: If society want ‘value’ out of criminals, then the smart thing is to educate them and treat their mental health problems. Someone who ends up imprissioned means society has failed in their socialisation, and that needs correcting.
[2012/01/10 16:22]  Sophiekittycat: if only 40% of people who go to jail never regress it is that how prisons works is a serious failure
[2012/01/10 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: Keep in mind, a lot of them were put into prison to begin with for “victimless crimes” that arguably shouldn’t be illegal at all. :/
[2012/01/10 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe. yeah, 75% are there on drug related charges
[2012/01/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: I would be much more inclined to agree with you on that 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes, that’s a different problem! Agreed
[2012/01/10 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. those “crimes” are just morality issues
[2012/01/10 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Sophie, it is a serious failure; I agree.
[2012/01/10 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I”m one of those bleeding hearts who thinks everyone should be treated with dignity and given the opportunity to serve society
[2012/01/10 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with the content, Rhi 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:24]  TR Amat: The history of the illegality of drug taking is interesting. 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably not just with the form…
[2012/01/10 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: “serve” ?? slaver!
[2012/01/10 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is a cult polish movie called Debt (Dług), about two businessmen that were being exploited and threatened by one guy, they eventually killed him. The movie is based on a real story, they were released from prison by president (don’t remember which one now).
[2012/01/10 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You mean the imprisonment, not with how we do it, Gwyn?
[2012/01/10 16:25]  Sophiekittycat: rhiannon if you act with beasts asa beast you become a beast if you act human even with a beast you stay human, we should always act with dignity
[2012/01/10 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I agree, Sophie
[2012/01/10 16:25]  RR Armbinder (right shoulder): whispers: Jo Soosung has been unlocked by Ivy Sunkiller after 2:32:30 (detached 0 times)
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: ivy is a true jail keeper she liock unlock gag ungag
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Run while you can, Doll!
[2012/01/10 16:26]  TR Amat: You don’t need human DNA of mental architecture to act humanely, or have humanity, is an important premise.
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think she did, Extie
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: run run forest doll ?
[2012/01/10 16:26]  TR Amat: or mental*
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not imprisonment 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: I seek to escape this pestilence you call society and secede as quickly as possible. Wasn’t that the theme of “there will be blood” ? The only solution for people with antisocial personality disorders is to become rich? And lo, so Europe exported all thoe people and They invented the US?
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: she needs to ban some griefers
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB, Gwyn!
[2012/01/10 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: wb
[2012/01/10 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Gwyn, bash the router harder!
[2012/01/10 16:27]  TR Amat: Campaign to ensure everyone has at least two routes to the INternet. 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: and hehe K
[2012/01/10 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I just got one of those forced v3 updates; I’m surprised you all don’t look like kangaroos and that I can move.
[2012/01/10 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: Sociopathic people, those who feel neither guilt nor shame, aren’t really capable of ‘doing the right thing’. So are they therefore innocent? I don’t think we could ever say that. Brain made me do it is irrelevant there. Societies goal is to remove them from making harm for others regardless of why the do what they do…
[2012/01/10 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: I think you can turn off the automatic update in options, Rhi.
[2012/01/10 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: Seriously, and you believe this? Art?
[2012/01/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, legally, sociopaths aren’t innocent, as they do know the difference between right and wrong, but they choose to ignore it.
[2012/01/10 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or they don’t think it applies to them.
[2012/01/10 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: grr crashed when trying to reply to Rhi (the answer was mostly “yes”)
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My ADSL provider should be PUNISHED!
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, lol
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Burning oil is too good for them.
[2012/01/10 16:29]  TR Amat: Sociopaths can supposed learn behaviour that lets them function in sciety. And, given suitable opportunities, often seem to. Hence various people who have reasonable lives.
[2012/01/10 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: I wouldn’t say they know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between ‘get away with’ or ‘get caught’.
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Slowly roasting them on a fire would be more like it 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: But we get back to Gwyn’s point Art. IF the neurological correlates of crime can be corrected, what use then is prison? Just send them off for correctrive brain surgery.
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: There is a percentage of people who is NOT a psychopath but IS a sociopath. They feel the difference but have come not to care, Essentially some radical fundamentalists are in effect NOT psychiopats but function as sociopaths,
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, there’s no reason *not* to do the correction system right. It takes $35,000 per prisoner to keep them; you could send them all to Harvard for that money.
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): per prionser per year
[2012/01/10 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Art, there we go back to Kohlberg 😉
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Annually Rhiannon
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: aren’t we mixing sociopaths with psychopaths?
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: That’s what we call “bleeding money”
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: No Its two different things
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: right one minute left! should ‘my brain made me do it’ ever be used in law for defense or prosecution?
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): art, well, they don’t appreciate the difference, but the reason that they aren’t insande is they can “appreciate the criminality of their acts.”
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Not seeing another people’s emotional pain, and not giving a flying fuck.
[2012/01/10 16:30]  TR Amat: Psychiatric definitions can be tricky, as they tend to evolve. 🙂
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s what I’m saying, sociopaths are the “killer” type
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s not like a sociopath thinks we’re all Martians invading the Earth, for instance.
[2012/01/10 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: psychopats are the ones that can live in society just fine
[2012/01/10 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no 😉 But you askjed before a nicer question. Assuming that we could simply modify a brain with corrective surgery, well, I’d be for it hehe — but I happen to know that this will never work.
[2012/01/10 16:31]  Chraeloos: I don’t think “my brain made me do it” is a valid response – UNLESS we have a viable way of fixing it.
[2012/01/10 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, well, most are dysfunctinal, as it isn’t just lack of morality, but impaired abstract reasoning ability. Perhaps it is back to Kohlberg–and PIaget
[2012/01/10 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Ivy and me know a sociopath, a finnish person in a mental institution. Absolutely terrifying. This person doesn’;t have a frigging clue.
[2012/01/10 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Chraeloos, which we do not.
[2012/01/10 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok my time is up!
[2012/01/10 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: WILL WORK FOR FREE
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