THINKERS 3rd Jan 2012: FUSS OVER A FOX

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2012/01/03 15:32]  Morgaine Dinova: Has Zobeid been coming in recent times?
[2012/01/03 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: She is usually here, Morgie.
[2012/01/03 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Zo has been here almost every week for a while
[2012/01/03 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Morgaine, i think so; she comes to bryce’s
[2012/01/03 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, Zo is an ocelot now though
[2012/01/03 15:32]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Thinkers! Happy New Year to one and all! 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, you’ll love her new avi
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the discussion is, as Ivy shall point out I am sure…around her neck..
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Happy New Year, Extie
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: FUSS OVER A FOX: When Anya Omhi created a scarf that resembled a stuffed fox, she received many complaints from upset SL residents over animal cruelty. Is this kind of outrage unjustified, given the object caused no harm to anyone or anything, and if so is any outrage focused on anything created in SL that does no physical harm similarly unjustified?
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Not since the cliterodectomy.
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Lulu Lacrima: ooowwww
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I was immediately reminded of the SCOTUS ruling on the chil porn act
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Lulu Lacrima: hi rhi!
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Congress had to rewrite it because of that
[2012/01/03 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Lulu!
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Let me add that by physical harm I mean anything that can disrupt SL.
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: like crasj the grid.
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Zo, Gwyn
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: Hii
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They ruled that as long as no actual chil was used in the pornography, that it was constitutionally protected. I think the same goes here
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwyneth!
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, it’s using two alpha layers on top of the original prims
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Zoe; we were just talking about you
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: so it can cause dps loss
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi RHi & everybody — happy new year!
[2012/01/03 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: !!
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: We were?
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: fps* loss
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: my simplest answer (which is also a bit short, so hopefully I can find more beyond this), is that only an Augmentalist can possibly find a problem with a virtual fox fur in a virtual world, and that’s because they cannot separate worlds.
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Sorry I’m late!
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: SL is about fetishism and drama, insofar those aren’t the same. This is clearly another case of displaced militancy roleplaying, or transverse animistic protest.
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody sent me an IM with a message to relay about this topic..
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: Heya zobeid
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the fuss as described is silly. I’m a vegetarian but I can tell the difference between a dead fox and a virtual one. A virtual one is no more offensive than synthetic fur. I wouldn’t personally wear synthetic fur, I prefer natural fibre, but it isn’t offensive. And it sure isn’t animal cruelty! Please pass on good wishes to the designer. Also pass on that this person needn’t be upset by the reactions of others either. In sl there is no physical harm at all. Tasteless, opinionated, rude, inconsiderate, but no physical harm. The old addage goes: sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me. We could do with a little more emotional hardiness on sl too. Thanks for bringing this up and have a lovely time!
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, it would be an immersive, not an augmentist
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Morgaine Dinova: Hi Gwyn, Happy New Year!!!!
[2012/01/03 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Likewise, Morgie 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: So having established this can we all go and have sex with undersage avatars now?
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think the SCOTUS ruling was a good one; digital representations did not do any harm to anyone; even if they were offensive
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: Oh cool, Zobeid’s here, Happy New Year!!!!
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, yes, that might follow; and we can, actually, in some sims and in A areas
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: I have my eyes on a version of Rhiannon that’s 11 years old.
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It is the same principle
[2012/01/03 15:36]  William Hawksby: The complaint isnt that a virtual dead fox is animal cruelty but that it supports animal cruelty by making it acceptable even in a virtual world
[2012/01/03 15:36]  William Hawksby: La queja no es que un zorro muerto virtual es crueldad hacia los animales, sino que es compatible con la crueldad animal por lo que es aceptable, incluso en un mundo virtual
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Morgaine Dinova: Zobeid (momentarily off-topic) — I joined a group of yours today! 😛
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Lulu Lacrima: khannea, did you know rhis at 11years?
[2012/01/03 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Faux fur in RL is not opposed by the Animal Cruelty people, so why is Faux Fir opposed in SL?
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh should I use the Hitler argument now? 😉 If representations of concepts are not the same thing as the concepts themselves, why banish swastikas then?
[2012/01/03 15:36]  Lulu Lacrima: zo? hello!
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, that’s offensive; I was hooker when I was s11; didn’tg have much choice about it
[2012/01/03 15:37]  William Hawksby: IT JSUT “FEELS” BAD
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwynneth, swastikas are protected speech in FL
[2012/01/03 15:37]  William Hawksby: oops
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Ohh ok. I see. Did it pay well?
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Lulu Lacrima: not in germany
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: that’s cool Morgaine
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Some people say a dead fox wrapped around your body is bad taste, even if it is only make-believe, Art.
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, perhaps I should have used a *better* argument then.
[2012/01/03 15:37]  William Hawksby: germany has no speech protection in the sense the us does
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, aside from the fact that it’s ugly and I have no outfit to wear it with (hence my lack of top), I don’t really see how it can “feel” bad
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, no, that’s true, but then we should argue that temptation makes for restriction.
[2012/01/03 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): STFU, Hnnea
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *Khannea
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm Ok!
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Chraeloos
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Chraeloos: Hello everyone 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: If bad taste was a crime in SL, the population would be decimated.
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Lulu Lacrima: rhia, I’m not sure I’ve just argued a point for anything other than the fact that the swastika is banned in germany….
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Lulu Lacrima: a little late here to the game, IMing
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Again, Chraeloos:)
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: hey heyo Chraeloos
[2012/01/03 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But what of that SCOTUS argument–that child porn is ok, as long as it isn’t exploiting actual children or is used for commercial purposes, or to solicit pedeastry–which the new law all prohibits
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Lulu Lacrima: rhia, child porn is made from the exploitation of a child
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: child porn is not OK in SL.
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Lulu Lacrima: which is a crime
[2012/01/03 15:39]  William Hawksby: people opposed to smoking often demand that people using those electronic cigarettes stop using them in public places- theres no harm to anyone but they dont like the :idea” of smokingo
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Lulu Lacrima: period
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In most of Europe, mere *representations* of child porn are NOT ok.
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: I believe that there is a law here that forbids underage *drawn* porn
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Morgaine Dinova: Taste is the product of a cultural value judgement. In a virtual world, unless you’re a dyed-in-the-wool augmentalist, you should use the value judgements of the virtual world, not of some other world like RL.
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: now that’s an excellent argument!
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn is a smoker 😉
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, no it’s not; that’s why the yad to change the law; the courts said that digital representations, however, realistic, do not exploit children
[2012/01/03 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: yes
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s why it’s analogous–do digital representations of fur, etc., really harm animals?
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: Rhia, whose law, and where?
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: b/c it’s not legal in this state
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: it harms the soul of people who wear it!
[2012/01/03 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, so those electronic smoking thing. They contain nicotine right? And it is exhaled, right? So how is that safe for others?
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, the Internet Decency law, Federal, United States
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: hrmmmmmm
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s like counter-strike, you play enough and you go postal in high school
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: But Morgie so few people these days hold such a fundamental immersionist attitude. Not even I am that strict an immersionist anymore.
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: what is exhaled is 100% water vapour
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima makes note of rhi’s citatton
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: In my country it is still illegal to engage in simulated or emulated sexual acts with children or child like shapes, especially if it involves others. Fo r instance, imports AND use of real life sex dolls in to this part of western Europe will get you questioned, and on some lists you don’t wanna be.
[2012/01/03 15:40]  William Hawksby: the nicotime is not exhaled
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Lulu Lacrima: *citation
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: hence, you were a faux fox enough, and you go fox hunting!
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Banned all child pornography; was thrown out by SCOTUS, was amended to allow the criminalization of most porn.
[2012/01/03 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: you wear*
[2012/01/03 15:40]  William Hawksby: not in any significant amounts
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller shoots another typist
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi FreeSpirit
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: In Sweden it is far more extreme. ANY kind of interaction that remotely deals with child sexual topics is reason for arrest and imprisonment there.
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: they must be piling up, Ivy;)
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: it’s the same in my country too., Most of Europe has similar laws.
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey! … I saw that colorful avatar in a hard core porn sim.
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So it does seem, Khannea, that there is a real issue here–does digital represntations of harming animals really shold be banned, as offensive
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Nice.
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, there’s the american Indian, and the subcontinental Indian swastika that supposedly impart positive life force powers
[2012/01/03 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Is this topic about child porn? Seems to be all we are talking about.
[2012/01/03 15:42]  William Hawksby: if we ban everything that upsets our “Do-gooder and feel-gooder” sensibilities, noting will be legal , not even in SL
[2012/01/03 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s about how representations, even though they’re not the same thing, evoke the same feelings.
[2012/01/03 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The law in America is similar, but if a guy had pictures, all digital images, of child sex on his computer, he would be not committing anyh crime. But he can’t share them, can’t commericalize them, they can’t use actual children.
[2012/01/03 15:42]  Lulu Lacrima: extropia, seems we’re discussing the representation of rl objectification
[2012/01/03 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So like what? That’s less than 1% of the cases?
[2012/01/03 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Lulu
[2012/01/03 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And William, that’s indeed the question.
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, we’re discussing how symbolic representation could be really offensive and if it should be regulated
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not mind it getting a mention as a case in point. But can we maybe not talk exclusively about child porn?
[2012/01/03 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Question; Does the faux fir thing have different implications in SL BECAUSE of the prevalence of Animal avatars? And they find it offensive? That might make some sense, except then how do you explain Zombies not being offensive?
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Zo
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: No but the child porn argument is pretty much an extrapolation if the sensitive issue surrounding animal rights, animal abuse and fur. Am I allowed to virtual take puppies in SL and simulate cooking them, as is normal in some chinese dishes? Throwing them alive in boiling water?
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Lulu Lacrima: all representations are symbolic, m’dear Rhia 😡
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William I agree
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And most peopole can tell the difference.
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There you go, Lulu 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I still think it’s funny when I get to wear leopard-print outfits. 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: I can skin women and eat them from the steak, while they still live. That seems to be fairly common here.
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Lulu Lacrima: “Does the faux fir thing have different implications in SL BECAUSE of the prevalence of Animal avatars?” is an excellent question
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: I’ve noticed how easy it is for principles to wither away, and I can’t say it makes me happy. But you can’t compromise with that devil, because the end result is the total loss of virtual worlds, and that means we are left with no ability for independent thought at all.
[2012/01/03 15:43]  William Hawksby: furries choose to be furries knowing that sometimes RL furries get butchered for furs or meat-
[2012/01/03 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It seems to be that SCOTUS had a point–if it doesn’t really harm anyone real, why not allow it?
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: someone else IM ed to say that if the faux fox used a texture that was a photo of a real dead fox, then a real fox was harmed in the making of the product.
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: good point extropia
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can fry another avatar in deep oil if you (and the other person) want to, as long as there is no ageplay 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: or whomever IMed that
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: ageplay?
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): True, Willliam, like women choose to go naked in SL, knowing some are raped for that in RL
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: but that does not seem to be the case.
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is an answer to that, Rhi: Puritanism. The notion that “somebody” doesn’t trust “others” to know what’s good for them or not, and so feels that “they” have the “moral” right to ban everything “offensive”.
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: meaning: how does that relate to the fox ?
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Lulu Lacrima: 😉
[2012/01/03 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: The argument in all these cases often used by justicial prosecutors is that simulation of these abusive behaviors leads to its practice in reality.
[2012/01/03 15:44]  William Hawksby: since when has it become illegal or for that matyter immoral to kill a fox for fur?
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, exactly
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, but that’s neither constitutional nor a wise policy, imo
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: That’s odd because nobody seems to care much about extravagant cultures of slavery and rape here.
[2012/01/03 15:45]  William Hawksby: is there any evidence for that? i think not
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: it’s immoral in *some* cultures.
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: correlation does not mean causation
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: A lot of people believe the fur trade to be immoral.
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I know the Constitution doesn’t apply to SL, but I think some of the underlying principles should
[2012/01/03 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: SL bans ageplay solely because they are terrified of RL retribution by governments.
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I agree with you!
[2012/01/03 15:45]  William Hawksby: which culture?
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: There tens of thousands in SL who have vibrant economies based on slavery.
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, ageplay isn’t banned; it’s confined
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: Khannea, like the gorean community here
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: what else could conceivably be banned?
[2012/01/03 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why doesn’t the US Constitution apply to SL? SL operates under the laws of California and the US…
[2012/01/03 15:46]  Morgaine Dinova: There is no ageplay because everyone is frightened of the stigma (or worse, criminal record) that can come from it, even when no children are involved at all.
[2012/01/03 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, in cultures of slavery an rape, it’s all consenting adults
[2012/01/03 15:46]  Lulu Lacrima: they could never in a million years engage in such play to such a great extent in the “open” in any other non-pixellated community
[2012/01/03 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes Lulu yet enslavement of people seems to be not that much an issue. Maybe because it’s close to being legal in the first world.
[2012/01/03 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s a big difference
[2012/01/03 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, and I was going to say before I crashed that the swastika has a loooong history as a good luck symbol before the Nazis took it. I once saw an old cowboy’s gun belt and holster with a swastika on it.
[2012/01/03 15:46]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, read my statement from….
[2012/01/03 15:47]  William Hawksby: slavery involves consenting adults?
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, it sure didn’t bring them good luck
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: [15:41] Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, there’s the american Indian, and the subcontinental Indian swastika that supposedly impart positive life force powers
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, yes, it actually is a symbol of peace; which is why the Nazi’s took it; they were going to *impose* world peace by wiping out Communism and the Jews
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: all cultures where killing animals for sport or food is found offensive. Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism are good examples, with more or less emphasis on some countries or others. All in all, that’s a few billion people who find it morally wrong…
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds sticke her tongue out at that
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): He Llegion!
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: There is also slavery here of adults roleplaying they do NOT consent.
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: hey, thanks for backing me up earlier rhia
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima pouts
[2012/01/03 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is interesting that people are offended by a representation of a fox stole, but think nothing of a Zombie chomping on a handful of Human brains…
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the good luck swastika runs clockwise, and the NAzi one, counter-clockwise.
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, you’re welcome
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: lol, that’s b/c there’s no such thing as zombies
[2012/01/03 15:47]  William Hawksby: we’re not there
[2012/01/03 15:47]  Lulu Lacrima: I’ll get you my pretty! and yer little dawg too!
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: perhaps the word you’re looking for is “Hypocrisy”, not “interesting” 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, good point; I guess part of that is that there is no FL equivalent of zombies munching on brains
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Morgaine Dinova: Of course there are zombie. Congress and Parliament are totally full of them.
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: zombies are real, there is a proof in Bible
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu never say the actual Linden staff, Lulu;)
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: two, even!
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haHA
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Lulu Lacrima: oh, never
[2012/01/03 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ha ha Gwyn, your are so sly!
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s why I think it’s immersives who are most offended here–they can’t distinguish betwwen SL and RL
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Lulu Lacrima: Extropia
[2012/01/03 15:48]  Lulu Lacrima: rhi, I suppose you’re right
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, not the brain munching kind of zombie
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: Gwyn is sly like a fox!
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The bible doesn’t mention zombies
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wouldn’t quite agree with you on that, Rhi. The people who are offended are the ones that cannot see the difference between symbolism and actual things, and “feel” they have the “moral right” to tell others about that.
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: those who rise from the dead?
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: like we know what Jesus did all that time after resurrection!
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: oh yes
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, eating ocelots–nothing wrong with that.
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds giggles at Zoe
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Morgaine Dinova: Agree with Gwyn
[2012/01/03 15:49]  William Hawksby: Right Gwyneth
[2012/01/03 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lulu: don’t say that, I’ll get shot and wrapped around someone’s neck 😉
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, I agree with that, Gwyn
[2012/01/03 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: What is the equivalent of the fox scarf with robots or cybernetic creatures? Circuit boards around the neck?
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s not about immersionism vs. augmengtism; there are Puritans on both camps
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh I’d love to eat Zobi.
[2012/01/03 15:50]  William Hawksby: the ones who feel morally superior to others like to “protest” what they feel is wrong- and force others to obe7y their distates if they can
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Lulu Lacrima: aww, Gwyn, I wouldn’t mind having you wrapped around my neck! but I respect your desire not to be a pixellated wrap
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ William
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Lulu
[2012/01/03 15:50]  William Hawksby: moral elitism
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually wouldn’t mind! 😉
[2012/01/03 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well, I suppose an augmentist could be offended, but it seems to me that an unerlying assumption is that what happens in SL is “real” and like RL.
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima grins at Gwyn
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: maybe it’s about people who like being offended for any reason?
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be fun, though, to see furries in SL wearing broken human avatar parts wrapping their necks…
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, I think you’re close to the real truth
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: You’re giving me ideas, Gwyn…
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: some people are just too black and white
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: meaning: black and white thinkers
[2012/01/03 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, if people are offended by skinning a fox, are they offended by roleplaying hunters and trappers in sl?
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: You ever hear of that version of the Turing test where you hold a robot upside down and if its protest triggers empathy like the squeeling of a mouse, it passes the test for…I forget what. Being deserving of pity, I guess.
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: It’s not only a 2-category thing though. There are at least 3 categories, actual, symbolic, and not correlated. A fox fur in a virtual world is not necessarily correlated with the death of an animal, not even a virtual animal, and not intended to be symbolic of that either.
[2012/01/03 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I’ve met a lot of Puritans. Some of them are not that easily offended and they have the genuine, honest belief that what they’re doing — stopping others to do something — is really being done *for their benefit*
[2012/01/03 15:51]  William Hawksby: there is a sense of power in holding what you consider the moral high cround
[2012/01/03 15:52]  William Hawksby: there you go
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, they might be, that ‘s why it seems that we might be tempted to use the “Where will it all end?” argument
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: scary, huh?
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Morgaine: I agree. But how many people can actually tell the difference?
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Lulu Lacrima: extropia, the only turing test I’m aware of is pretty basic: input –> something mysterious happens –> output
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh by the way, almost everyone here has engaged in crimes. I could easily get evidence on most of you here, possily with the exceptopn of one or two, and with that evience, iff you ever visited the Iran republic, you would all be in a major legal wrangle. Could actually get you killed. Most of you all have done things in SL that in theory could get you the death penalty in Iran.
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Lulu Lacrima: if the out put = human output
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Lulu Lacrima: well anyway
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: anyone who is willing to think about it can distinguish the categories. Emphasis on *willing*
[2012/01/03 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m tempted to dig out my noob-skin outfit again now. 😛
[2012/01/03 15:53]  William Hawksby: you aint got nuttin on me
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Don’t you dare, Zoe. I like your new look
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: speaking of animal cruelty, anybody have ideas about what to do with the mouse colony that has moved into my kitchen & is eating my 21 year old cat’s food?
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: owning a cd/dvd recorder in poland is, technically, a crime
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re too optimistic, Morgaine 🙂 I’d put the emphasis on “Thinking”, or, rather, the ability — or lack thereof — of thinking 😉
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: not executed, thankfully
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: have-a-hearts don’t work
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: lemme tell ya
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: *giggle* Poland.
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lulu, there is a sonic device that sometimes scares them off
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: what is worse? Turning up naked in a PG sim, or tuning up wearing the faux fox?
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lulu: get reinforcements — more cats!
[2012/01/03 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: rhia doesn’t work
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: generally people who can’t think are not the problem, those who will not are.
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: gwyn, this cat is too old to tolerate the stress of a new cat
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: what if the faux fox is what stops you from being naked *cough*
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that surely depends on the person viewing both things
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well, from the lindens point of view, turning up naked in a PG sim. You don’t get SL suspended for wearing fake fur
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: what I meant, Ivy.
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Morgaine: now with that I fully agree :-.)
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh my that is an interesting experiment. Turning up naked in a PG Vegan sim, well covered with a fox. Are you still naked when you do?
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: Now I’m quite serious! What would you do?
[2012/01/03 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: about these mice?
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds knows what huntress will wear in a PG sim that wants to ban fur, now
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Morgaine Dinova: All natural SL avies (non-prim) are naked even in PG zones — they just carry a coat of paint made to look like clothing.,
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Why is Rhi not naked, REALLY, in the same sense that fox is not a fox, REALLY. Just representations?
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: poison, Lulu
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: I’ve stuffed all the holes I can find….
[2012/01/03 15:55]  William Hawksby: depends what the fox coveras
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, I’m with ya, just don’t want the kitty to be exposed to the poison
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I am naked.
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d contact an expert exterminator, Lulu… in fact, there are alternatives to poison which also work well, but it takes an expert to set them up properly
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: You need to put in places the cat can’t get into.
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: ex, she’s always naked
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: And I think body paint is cooool.
[2012/01/03 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it’s the social meaning that makes it so; everyone acts like I’m naked; so I feel nake
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: [15:57] Lulu Lacrima: I’ve stuffed all the holes I can find…. <- we believe you 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Lulu, pump the holes with CO2.
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: TRhi, as the manifestation of her real self in this virtual world, is really naked.
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): btw, I am naked in RL at the moment, as if anyone really cares
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Rhi
[2012/01/03 15:56]  William Hawksby: naked people have more credibility
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rhi…. ok, I withdraw my comment then 😀
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Willliam
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Lulu Lacrima: khannea, things is I clearly haven’t found all the holes
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, it’s an apt one; just coincidentally…
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Morgaine Dinova: I’m beyond naked, I don’t even have painted skin under these prims.
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, are people more justified to say of Rhi, there are some places you are not welcome, unless you wear some clothes? Are they on firmer moral ground than the animal rights guys and this fox?
[2012/01/03 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and you’re wearing heels, Rhi 😉 )
[2012/01/03 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, no, they aren’t; it’s the same kind of principle
[2012/01/03 15:57]  Lulu Lacrima: Gwyn, I live a mile away from the top animal hospital in the country….there’s nothing they can do that I haven’t already done within the realm of animal decency….which sort of bring me around to the main point of what would you do in rl with such an issue? forget the sl fox!
[2012/01/03 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): To ban the so called offensive
[2012/01/03 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie, I wonder if you can discuss morals that way at all. It depends on the social context…
[2012/01/03 15:57]  William Hawksby: if you think its immral, it is – esp[ecially if you own the sim
[2012/01/03 15:57]  Morgaine Dinova: Morgaine Dinova takes off head to reveal naked skin
[2012/01/03 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn yes, I am nude, not naked. And I’m merely nude too, as people point out.
[2012/01/03 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: eee!
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: eeek Morgie
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, might does not make right, William; even in SL
[2012/01/03 15:58]  William Hawksby: whats the dif?
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Rhi!
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Lulu Lacrima: rhi, what’s the difference bet. nude and naked
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: nude is when you leave your shoes on?
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Gwyn
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: William: something can be moral yet offensive to someone, but yes, in your sim you are the law 🙂
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: I have a very erratic relationship with “decency” in SL. Sometimes I love the anarchy that so often prevails here.
[2012/01/03 15:58]  Morgaine Dinova: OK, now here’s a question. Is my avatar naked (just the head for now, so I don’t have to remove more)?
[2012/01/03 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Nude is when you keep your dignity.
[2012/01/03 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds
[2012/01/03 15:59]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And I was told that for lot of people, it is easy to forget I’m naked, as I’m *just naked* That is, no symiotics attached.
[2012/01/03 15:59]  Morgaine Dinova: Doesn’t anyone think it odd that I would have to ADD something (a paint resembling skin) to become what passes for “naked” in a PG zone?
[2012/01/03 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: back
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): wb. Art
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: If I make up a rule for my sim, and you come along and deliberately flaunt that rule, are you in the wrong for breaking it, or am I for making it?
[2012/01/03 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: now we are talking about Naked?
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not sure I’m following, Morgane
[2012/01/03 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, could be both
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: However… I’ve learned to be wary of deliberately ugly avs — usually griefers. And obvious noob avs. And… I sometimes get annoyed by the avs people bring to otherwise semi-serious discussion events like this one.
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Lulu Lacrima: naked, schmaked
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Rhi?
[2012/01/03 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: Morgaine: not really, since we are talking about perception, not logic 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, Rhi, you’re completely right actually. Even though I *usually* have you on my view, I *forget* that your avatar has no clothes on, because of the way you speak; that’s the attitude that confers dignity *to me*, and that’s why I forget that technically you’re naked. So I’d totally agree with the distiction between naked and nude in this context.
[2012/01/03 16:01]  Morgaine Dinova: Rhiannon: my kittie head is more naked than yours — it has no skin at all. So something has to be ADDED before I’m judged naked in a PG zone, not taken off.
[2012/01/03 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if you made a rule that everyone had to be naked, then had a discussion on Islam, and someone came in a full burka,, then you’d both be in the wrong.
[2012/01/03 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Next week: Perception is Reality. What does this mean?
[2012/01/03 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don’t tempt me, Art 😉
[2012/01/03 16:01]  William Hawksby: clearly nakedness has nothing to do With your head
[2012/01/03 16:01]  Lulu Lacrima: It’s time for my new favorite TV show….The Big Bang Theory….all about asperger’s and situtation comedy…it’s brilliant!
[2012/01/03 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Khan
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean, let’s say somebody came here with a bondage “pet” in tow…. That’s offensive.
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, I see, Morgaine. Yeah, well, avatar physics is considered clothing; I have an alt who is locked into nudity; so she can’t “wear” jiggling boobs
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Ask Bishop Berkely, Art.
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s all a matter of the logic of the language game we’re in
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thougt Ivy does that every week, Zo?
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Yes, she does.
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Lulu Lacrima: BYE!
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Lulu
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Lulu
[2012/01/03 16:02]  William Hawksby: if the rule is be naked- come naked – otherwise stay away and let the market decide
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Morgaine Dinova: Extie: You should do that. Let’s see how it affects the thinking if everyone is wearing naked paint. And invite some people from Islan.
[2012/01/03 16:02]  Morgaine Dinova: Islam*
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima kisses and hugs to everyone, naked, nude, swatiskaed, or ballgagged
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Somebody did once IM me demanding I either ban Ivy and Toy, or she would leave in disgust. She left, and Ivy and Toy stayed.
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Sometime I don’t really want to see. I’ve tried muting and derendering. 😛
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my. I should decline though; because I have a self.image which is not confident enough to keep my own dignity if I don’t have any clothes on.
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Good for you, Extie
[2012/01/03 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t hate me because I have antlers.
[2012/01/03 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: it’s not my goal to offend you, though I’m happy I do
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good choice, Extie
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller chuckles
[2012/01/03 16:03]  William Hawksby: why are you happy to offend?
[2012/01/03 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s *obviously* your goal to offend people. There’s no other reason to do that.
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I notice, Toy is wearing clothes today, though
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi FreeSpirit
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: there is no other reason you can see, there is a difference 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I said ‘they are my friends’ and she said ‘you need a better class of friends, then’. Stupid woman:(
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Could someone engage in fairly credible islamic fundamentalist roleplaying here in SL, or would specific RP recruitments of the US then come and LARP a black facilitity on your ass?
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: no, just another Puritan
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Morgaine Dinova: Zobeid: That’s patently not true, as the entire very happy naturist community can testify. Offence is the exact opposite of anyone’s intention.
[2012/01/03 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which, hmm, might be a synonym for stupidity
[2012/01/03 16:04]  William Hawksby: a what?
[2012/01/03 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They might investigate, Khannea, but nothing would happen
[2012/01/03 16:05]  Morgaine Dinova: It’s freedom, not offense.
[2012/01/03 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: in the sense that Morgaine was saying earlier: no willingness to think
[2012/01/03 16:05]  FreeSpirit Serenity: love your store my lady ivy
[2012/01/03 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Sophosphrone had a muslim speak at oine her of Salons, and it was the most griefed event I ever saw held at Extropia Core.
[2012/01/03 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: join the Al Andalus community 😉 They’ve been around for a few years. It’s run by a Christian lawyer from TExas 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Poor Soph was worked off her feet banning all the inclumin ne’er dowells.
[2012/01/03 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon, you are suggesting that SL is ideally suited for clandestine Al Qaeda meetings and recruitment. They only need change the term “US” with Mordor or Coruscant and they’re set.
[2012/01/03 16:06]  Chraeloos: I’ve got to go guys, see you all soon!
[2012/01/03 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2012/01/03 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: see you Chraeloos
[2012/01/03 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): who’s leaving?
[2012/01/03 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh bye, Chreloos
[2012/01/03 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: and thank you FreeSpirit 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: So what have we decided? Are we offended or not?
[2012/01/03 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’ve decided we’re offended by those who tgake offense
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But should they be banned?
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Morgaine Dinova: Haha
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Morgaine Dinova: Rhi++
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: if you *decide to* take offense in virtual faux stuffed animals, then you are offended 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:08]  FreeSpirit Serenity: yw my lady love the avatars and the scify theme at the other stores
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds takes a bow
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: COULD you be offended, Art? anyone? Not about this, but…something?
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Morgaine Dinova: Offense isn’t really given. Offense is just taken.
[2012/01/03 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: What about people who breed and kill virtual animals by starving them to death?
[2012/01/03 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: +1 Morgaine
[2012/01/03 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: So is this only about fur? Can I sell cans of live pureed cat in SL?
[2012/01/03 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Offense is given. That’s what griefers are all about. And I can’t stand them.
[2012/01/03 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Good Grief
[2012/01/03 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2012/01/03 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: so griefrs offend Zo, at least..
[2012/01/03 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: griefing is intentional, there is a difference
[2012/01/03 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: why does my pronunciation go to hell on this sim?
[2012/01/03 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think the only SL thing that offends me is people being intentionally mean to others.
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Morgaine Dinova: If offence could be given, Rhiannon could give me offence with her nudity if she wished. But she cannot, no matter how much she may want to, because I will not take offence.
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: Trolling is to Erotica as is Griefing is to Porn.
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thank you, Morgaine.
[2012/01/03 16:10]  William Hawksby: I’d be offended if it would make her happy
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds blinks at Khannea
[2012/01/03 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is the trilateral commision, Extie, either that or the Bildebergers I think. some sort of conspirators for sure…
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s the difference between someone taking offense in that you live without marriage, and going to a church and shitting on the altar
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds kisses William on the cheek
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: If a griefer turns up wearing the fox, not doing anything but kind of banking on the controversy, is the fox bad in this instance?
[2012/01/03 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hrrmopf
[2012/01/03 16:10]  FreeSpirit Serenity: nudity an offense nudity is art
[2012/01/03 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon only offends me with that endless carrying around of Kant of her.
[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): FreeSprit, right, esp. in SL
[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, You Kant take transcendental idealism?
[2012/01/03 16:11]  FreeSpirit Serenity: rl to
[2012/01/03 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: disclaimer: I’m wearing the fox not to offend anyone, but as a statement
[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes.
[2012/01/03 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: You have spoiled all Kant for me, Rhiannon.
[2012/01/03 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): FreeSpirit
[2012/01/03 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: You Kant touch ‘dis. STOP! HAmmer time…
[2012/01/03 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: …we done?
[2012/01/03 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: I need a pair of Hammertime pants
[2012/01/03 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: You know that’s practically the same thing, Ivy. Any “statement” is practically guaranteed to offend certain factions. Presumably the ones you aimed it at. :/
[2012/01/03 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2012/01/03 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I think that Morgaine has hit the spot. Offense is only in the eyes of the beholder…
[2012/01/03 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: who fancies Art;s topic about perception for the remainder?
[2012/01/03 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nice sum up
[2012/01/03 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Where do you draw the line between “making a statement” and trolling?
[2012/01/03 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ask SaveMe Oh
[2012/01/03 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oe, why make the distinction? Why not just go with “behavior disruptive to a multi-person role playing game” as griefing, and stop it?
[2012/01/03 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: there is a nice bit in “the four horsemen” about that, regarding religious people taking offense when you undermine religion
[2012/01/03 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Is a gay pride parade Trolling, or necessary? And how about if it’s done in a conservative part of Jeruzalem, under the noses of Haredim?
[2012/01/03 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Getting your point across is maing a statement. When your point has been made and you repeat it endlessly that is trolling.
[2012/01/03 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: but that’s not to say you undermine religion just to make the religion bad, it’s just that you can’t really talk about it without someone taking offense
[2012/01/03 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Interesting definition, Extie
[2012/01/03 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: erm
[2012/01/03 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: to make the religious people feel bad*
[2012/01/03 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: probably wrong, though, Art.
[2012/01/03 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: if that makes sense
[2012/01/03 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’d say that so many things are culturally determined… morality is certainly one of those. There are few universals (e.g. don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t lie), the rest is pretty much socially conditioned
[2012/01/03 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: There are always new people to make the point to, I guess.
[2012/01/03 16:15]  William Hawksby: why does one feel compelled to get their “point” across?
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, that’s easy, William: ego!
[2012/01/03 16:16]  William Hawksby: why rub it in pothers faces?
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Why not, William? It’s self-expression
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: also the fox wasn’t really “aimed” at anyone, in fact, I bet most people who did get offended actually were not the target audience of the fox
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “my opinions are more important than yours”
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Because there are people who are WRONG on the Web and NEED to be CORRECTED!
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahah Extie — that’s the right quote for this context!
[2012/01/03 16:16]  William Hawksby: why not just say it- must we get the other to say “UNCLE” to our ewvery thought
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: So speaks a veteran of the forums.
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: http://xkcd.com/386/
[2012/01/03 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anyone who thinks there are universal cultural facts, just study cultural anthropology for a semester or two and you will be amazed at how few things humans belive across all cultures…. That was an eye opener for me in College….
[2012/01/03 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: And then there also is a thing called name & shame.
[2012/01/03 16:17]  William Hawksby: VE MUST HAVE ORDER !
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What if you’re making a point, and it’s the other one who stops you? aRen’t they making themselves superior to you? Like in sims that don’t allow nudity in their discussiions?
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Art
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Thaisinha!
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Thaisinha1329: hi
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Stories. All cultures throughour all history tell stories.
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: are we done on this subject, then?
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t just welcome nudity where I host meetings, I put it on display with poles.
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually that’s a good example, Ivy. I don’t see any problem with someone wearing the fox as a genuine fashion accessory. (Although it would probably be in the vintage fashion scene.)
[2012/01/03 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm. We shouldn’t be homo sapiens, but homo faber
[2012/01/03 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Emphasis – DANCE poles.
[2012/01/03 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: I agree, Gwyn.
[2012/01/03 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: The counter-example would be wearing the fox and then going to hang around Luskwood. 😛
[2012/01/03 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing wrong with telling stories! We came up with science thanks to that.
[2012/01/03 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: YOU don’t see it as a problem, but the person next to you might. YOU don’t take offense, the person next to you might. Despite both of you receiving same image. 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: It’s all about the audience.
[2012/01/03 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: I saw an older woman with a huge and expensive fur coat on last week, and I think most of the people on the street just though she was clueless. She wanted to be admired, I’m sure…
[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely, Zo
[2012/01/03 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: you can be only intentionally offensive to someone if you know they will take offense in it
[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I have no doubt about that
[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perceptions 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good definition, Ivy!
[2012/01/03 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t bring doll in bondage to christian sims, I do bring her here because I know it’s generally accepted here 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: clueless (like in Art’s example) is not the same thing as being offensive
[2012/01/03 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: But are some tings particularly liable to cause offense?
[2012/01/03 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: bleh
[2012/01/03 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: depends on the social context…
[2012/01/03 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why do you think diplomats train for so long? 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: and I don’t take offense in you derendering toy and doll 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, it’s almost incredible how they can sit 20 dignitaries from 20 different cultures at the same table and manage that none get offended… 😉
[2012/01/03 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: Elder Jewish woman commemorates her husbands death in a concentration camp by going to the opera in a fur coat once every year. She is not keeping up to date on popular opinions on animal rights. She is then deeply traumatized once she gets firebombed with red paint.
[2012/01/03 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: why would you derender Toy, whoi is looking beautiful today?
[2012/01/03 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I have no choice about going to sims that allow nudity and avoiding those that don’t, as the latter eject or ban me
[2012/01/03 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): One guy found he could derender me and stopped demanding I be banned, though
[2012/01/03 16:21]  Morgaine Dinova: You can intentionally trigger people taking offence. It’s still them taking it though. It is simply impossible to give it if it is not taken.
[2012/01/03 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): He was offended as he was gay and thought female genitalia were disgusting.
[2012/01/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What happens to you in SL regarding nudity, Rhi, happens to me in RL regarding smoking 😉
[2012/01/03 16:22]  Morgaine Dinova: Hahaha
[2012/01/03 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Just rez some clothes, Rhi. If I went to a nudist sim, I would take my clothes off. I would not walk around fully clothed just to make a point or whatever.
[2012/01/03 16:22]  Morgaine Dinova: Interesting correlation there, Gwyn
[2012/01/03 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2012/01/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In any case, Morgaine, your point is still valid.
[2012/01/03 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: I like your female genitalia Rhiannon, but I do prefer you’d shave them. Or I wouldn’t mind you covering that vagina up with a nicely proportioned penis every now and then.
[2012/01/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, offense is just something taken
[2012/01/03 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I find if I do that, then there is a slide–they demand more and more clothes, I end up being banned anyway. At one sim, I was banned for wearing a full burka; the sim admin “saw” me topless
[2012/01/03 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean, rez clothes where they are required, of course. IF clothes are optional wear as little as you like.
[2012/01/03 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rarely something given, even if intentionally
[2012/01/03 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu snortles\
[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I also find there are hadly any places that are really that worth going to tghatg require clothes. They usually accept me, after a while
[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Because I’m just naked, they say
[2012/01/03 16:24]  William Hawksby: When in Rome…
[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And people begin to ignore it; even to the point of tp’ing me to PG sims, as they forget
[2012/01/03 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is where your dignity comes in, Rhi
[2012/01/03 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Gwyn
[2012/01/03 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: By the way, For those you you who are unfamiliar with the Second Life Artist, SaveMe Oh, her art form is to basically call people out in person at shows who take themselves too seriously. Sometimes this is funny and sometimes this is a trainwreck. Many call her SL’s worst Griefer. Here is her website http://savemeoh.wordpress.com/ Some of her videos are sidesplittingly ironic! heh
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it was just a statement of a fact, Rhi
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can still thank you for it
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh I know SaveMe Oh, and I almost had sex with Her IRL.
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure lol
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my Khannea
[2012/01/03 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha really?
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Seriously Rhi I am sorry about how you are treated and I think you should have the right to go nude if you want. But I do wonder if you go looking for controversy for reasons that escape me. Are you nude just becaiuse you feel like it, or is it a statement of some kind?
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You almost had sex with almost everybody! haha
[2012/01/03 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah I know her primary alt.
[2012/01/03 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: We extensively interacted for years in Amsterdam.
[2012/01/03 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: In fact
[2012/01/03 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: did Khannea ever have sex with you, Gwyn?
[2012/01/03 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: some spiritual traditions believe that the best way to make people stop taking themselves too seriously is doing exactly what SaveMe Oh is doing 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: SaveMe Oh is an art Museum curator in RL I think.
[2012/01/03 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, it’s both. Read my profile for the statement I’m making, but I feel more comfortable this way. Didn’t wear clothes irl until I was s11, and made a living as a nude dancer for years.
[2012/01/03 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Extie, but I’m sure that she ALMOST did. LOL
[2012/01/03 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Rhi went through her pole dancing in the middle of the discussion group phase of course. I do think that was a bit much. :/
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: SaveMe Oh was based on me, and a misinterp[retation of an incident where I protested a managerial decission in the Amsterdam sim in 2006.
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Well there you go, sweets. Put Gwyn on your list of conquests.
[2012/01/03 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: That is very interesting Khannea! wowie
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: ask her 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): i also find it’s a good filter–those who can’t accept me nude usually aren’t worth talking to
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, well, Bryce liked me doing that…
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: It was the turkey hat incident.
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s an excellent point, Rhi!
[2012/01/03 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And Khannea almost insists on it
[2012/01/03 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ty, Gwyn
[2012/01/03 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like the concept of self-expression as a filter… mmmh
[2012/01/03 16:28]  Morgaine Dinova: It is a good filter, indeed. A thinking person should be able to rationalize that there is nothing worth taking offence at, even if their cultural upbringing suggests that in RL they should take offence.
[2012/01/03 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if that applies to stuffed foxes as fashion statements too…
[2012/01/03 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Morgaine and totally agrees again
[2012/01/03 16:29]  William Hawksby: why do you want to filter out anuyone but those who think like you?
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh I’m agreeing too much with Morgaine again… lol
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: It does seem odd that something as natural and beautiful as the female body should cause offense. Not that all female bodies are as beautiful as Rhi. Oh that we were all as blessed with such a physique.
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Fuck I pay a lot of money to be able to play this game, and why would I start and go block critical content? Doesn’t make sense to me.
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: William: I wouldn’t say “Those that think like Rhi”. But more like “Those who think beyond ‘Rhi is naked'” which is a difference
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): William, do you intend to distort what I’m saying?
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: tell that to muslim extremists 🙂
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Morgaine Dinova: Gwyn: we have arguments sometimes, and they’re not pretty. 😛 But yes, far more agreement 😛
[2012/01/03 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t even block far right US extremists.
[2012/01/03 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: well the btopic seems to have died somewhat, so I am declaring the end..
[2012/01/03 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia: too many centuries of Christian Puritanism shapes that kind of thought 😛
[2012/01/03 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller rolls the credits
[2012/01/03 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: My time is up! (and it is, actually)
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