THINKERS DEC 27 2011: ORIGINS OF RELIGION

Extropia DaSilva: Well! It is 3:30 pm SLT and time to begin the last Thinkers of 2011.
[2011/12/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/12/27 15:31]  Scarp Godenot: The beta version is currently 3.2.5 and a bit more stable than the last build
[2011/12/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is…
[2011/12/27 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: ORiGIN OF RELIGION: There was a time when there was no religion on Earth. Now, there is lots of it. Why?
[2011/12/27 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: that was new
[2011/12/27 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: just got a memory allocation error from firestorm
[2011/12/27 15:32]  Prax (praxisfield): was there reall y a time of no religion?
[2011/12/27 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I know!
[2011/12/27 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Because there are people now!
[2011/12/27 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Prax, there was.
[2011/12/27 15:32]  Prax (praxisfield): when was that?
[2011/12/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Some time around 3 million years ago.
[2011/12/27 15:33]  Scarp Godenot: hmmmmm, I would start by saying that religion is an explanation of life. And it seems that humans want to be able to put themselves in context.
[2011/12/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: very roughly speaking.
[2011/12/27 15:33]  Chraeloos: what are we defining religion as?
[2011/12/27 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: On this planet, I mean.
[2011/12/27 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Religion is defined as the worship of a supernatural being that can bestow favours and punish bad behaviour.
[2011/12/27 15:34]  Prax (praxisfield): so, humnas invented religion, yes?
[2011/12/27 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: Self awareness needs a context to put the self in, in short.
[2011/12/27 15:34]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2011/12/27 15:35]  Scarp Godenot: I would broaden the defninition to all explanatory systems of life. Starting with animism.
[2011/12/27 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: To say humans invented religion makes it sound like a deliberate act. THat is true of scientology but I do not think it is necessarily true of all religions.
[2011/12/27 15:35]  Prax (praxisfield): animism and shamanism – all religions
[2011/12/27 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: I’m afraid it is, though the nature of the invention might not have been the same
[2011/12/27 15:36]  Scarp Godenot: I think religion co evolved with the Frontal Cortex of the brain.
[2011/12/27 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: One might argue it’s more like a virus. A memetic virus.
[2011/12/27 15:36]  Prax (praxisfield): Exti – yes, we are hard wired to look for “religious” explanatiosn, then we make culturla structures ariufnthose explanations
[2011/12/27 15:36]  Chraeloos: Someone wrote the bible and a religion was born. That’s deliberate.
[2011/12/27 15:37]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: But they were only writing down the stories their peple had told for a long time
[2011/12/27 15:37]  Chraeloos: or did the religion come first?
[2011/12/27 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: But some ONE did not write the Bible. It had no individual author.
[2011/12/27 15:37]  Kei Saito: well before there was a single GOD there were many… often related to nature
[2011/12/27 15:37]  Kei Saito: long before the Bible
[2011/12/27 15:37]  Chraeloos: indeed
[2011/12/27 15:38]  Arisia Vita: I like Dan Dennett’s explanation…
[2011/12/27 15:38]  Arisia Vita: Religion has three purposes: to comfort us in our suffering and allay our fear of death, to explain things we cannot otherwise explain, and to encourage group cooperation in the face of trials and enemies. At the root of human belief in gods lies an instinct on a hair trigger: a disposition to attribute agency – beliefs and desires and other mental states – to anything complicated that moves. It’s all a consequence of a “hyperactive agent detection device” – a biological adaptation that allows humans, as well as animals, to react to immediate dangers in the environment. “Snap Out Of It” – Daniel Dennett
[2011/12/27 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Organized Religion comes after belief systems are in place I would say…..
[2011/12/27 15:38]  Chraeloos: In Dennetts explanation it sounds like a government system
[2011/12/27 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: No, I think religion only has one purpose: to find and infect new hosts. 😛
[2011/12/27 15:39]  Kei Saito: I am not certain organized religion is primarily connected to GOD… it seems often related to politics & power
[2011/12/27 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok Ari. So basically Dennett attributes the origin of religion to certain evolved cognitive functions?
[2011/12/27 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma points to a good song about religion –> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiTlmukbPrE
[2011/12/27 15:39]  ergan Breuilly: Hello all!**)
[2011/12/27 15:39]  Scarp Godenot: Organized Religion also contains the ‘Will To Power’ of people over other people.
[2011/12/27 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Helllo!
[2011/12/27 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Violet!
[2011/12/27 15:40]  Kei Saito: afterall the Bible was a ‘selected’ set of stories… many were left out or interpretted to support the church’s goals at the time
[2011/12/27 15:41]  Julieclever: “to comfort us from suffering” is a good point
[2011/12/27 15:41]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zo, and all the grey blobs 🙂
[2011/12/27 15:41]  Sophiekittycat: hello
[2011/12/27 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller fixes grey blobs with texture refresh 🙂
[2011/12/27 15:41]  Chraeloos: philosophy comforts us from suffering.
[2011/12/27 15:41]  Kei Saito: I think today people feel less connected to a purpose & are searching for one
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Chraeloos: I think people grasp religion as a set of morals that they don’t believe they can set for themselves. It’s like an easy way out
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: I think ‘to explain the human condition’ is a more core reason for the existence of religion. With explanation comes security…. i.e. comfort.
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Prax (praxisfield): does anyone here have an issue with the description that we are hard-wired to seek supernatural explanatiosn, and that orgnaised reeligion is then a culturla structure built on that?
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s always easier not to think 🙂
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: How about the idea that there is a greater evolutionary cost to a false negeative than a false positive? If you naturally think ‘the bush moved for no reason’ a predator will eat you ‘but if you think ‘the bush moved because some agent made it move’ you survive to procreate. So our minds naturally see intention everywhere.
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Kei Saito: we have more time to wonder about such things now that alot of what once was work is now not something we have to worry about
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: Cultural mores exist whether religion is present or not.
[2011/12/27 15:42]  Chraeloos: What about life after death. I think that’s a convincing thing to support a want for security
[2011/12/27 15:43]  Chraeloos: I like that Extie, but why would they create a system so definted for just that purpose?
[2011/12/27 15:44]  Chraeloos: But not individual morals, Scarp
[2011/12/27 15:44]  Julieclever: the idea of impermanence makes some pple suffer
[2011/12/27 15:44]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2011/12/27 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Life after death has to do with’permanent person presence’. The understanding we all have that a person you cannot see or hear jas not disappreared but is ‘somewhere doing something’. We just naturally assume the deceased is ‘somewhere doing something’ because we never evolved to understand death actually entails the disappearance of the self.
[2011/12/27 15:45]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sorry, all…my connection’s dead in the water tonight; take care, and g’night and stuff 🙂
[2011/12/27 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: aww. Bye.
[2011/12/27 15:45]  Sophiekittycat: bye violet
[2011/12/27 15:45]  Chraeloos: bye
[2011/12/27 15:45]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: how do we know the self disappears though? maybe there actually is something after death
[2011/12/27 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: byes Vio!
[2011/12/27 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Dreams about dead people are the worst. 😦
[2011/12/27 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Charaeloos, individual morals ARE cultural mores. There is no difference.
[2011/12/27 15:46]  Prax (praxisfield): the evidence for surviving death is slender
[2011/12/27 15:46]  Chraeloos: I disagree, some people will believe things that their culture does not.
[2011/12/27 15:47]  Julieclever: we cant know if self disappears
[2011/12/27 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Well the dogma of neuroscience is that you need a working cerebral cortex in order to have propositional knowledge of any kind. Since it stops working at death you cannot experience being dead.
[2011/12/27 15:47]  Kei Saito: dogma is not always correct
[2011/12/27 15:48]  Scarp Godenot: Chraeloos, a culture does not believe only a single thing, but a range of things.
[2011/12/27 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, but something *of* you survives, at least for a while.
[2011/12/27 15:48]  Julieclever: so we are the cerebral cortex
[2011/12/27 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Your blog posts survive!
[2011/12/27 15:48]  Chraeloos: Sure Scarp, but religion sets forth the basis of right vs. wrong. People who don’t follow religion are more likely to create their own set of right/wrong beliefs.
[2011/12/27 15:49]  Kei Saito: I agree with Chraeloos, mores are not necessarily morals
[2011/12/27 15:49]  Scarp Godenot: Culture sets those things, Chraeloos, religion copies those things.
[2011/12/27 15:49]  Prax (praxisfield): the mind in the brain – brain gets damaged, so does the mind
[2011/12/27 15:49]  ergan Breuilly: la religion est venue avec la pensée humaine ; l’hédonisme par exemple, jouir de la vie et especially faire jouir les autres too!
[2011/12/27 15:49]  ergan Breuilly: religion came with human thought hedonism for example, enjoy life and to enjoy other Especially too!
[2011/12/27 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we are, Julie. A person remains that same person if they move to another location, or if they have a limb or organ transplant. But if they had a BRAIN transplant they would not be the same person at all. So the self IS in some mysterious way the brain.
[2011/12/27 15:50]  Chraeloos: Culture does not set those things necessarily. Think today, people in western culture follow eastern religions which hold a different set of ideals
[2011/12/27 15:50]  Julieclever: I agree
[2011/12/27 15:50]  Scarp Godenot: People don’t accept ideas from only one culture, but from those they choose nowadays. But they are still accepting cultural values, as they didn’t invent them.
[2011/12/27 15:50]  ergan Breuilly: une façon de vivre en harmonie avec les autres!*
[2011/12/27 15:50]  ergan Breuilly: a way of living in harmony with others! *
[2011/12/27 15:51]  Prax (praxisfield): some eastern religiousn expression are not so far from western neurosience – Zen for exmaple
[2011/12/27 15:51]  ergan Breuilly: pensée grecque!
[2011/12/27 15:51]  ergan Breuilly: Greek thought!
[2011/12/27 15:51]  Chraeloos: No Scarp, but there is a difference between culture and religion. People who follow a culture believe that it is correct in every aspect. People who don’t but that follow cultural morals are able to pick and choose.
[2011/12/27 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: so polytheism then..what might explain its origin?
[2011/12/27 15:52]  Prax (praxisfield): polytheism predates monotheism
[2011/12/27 15:52]  Julieclever: our projections
[2011/12/27 15:52]  ergan Breuilly: there’s no culture without moral!*
[2011/12/27 15:52]  ergan Breuilly: There’s no moral culture Without! *
[2011/12/27 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: For example I don’t define myself as religious, BUT I have many of the cultural values that many religions share. I get these from my life experience of the culture that educated me.
[2011/12/27 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: I think religion hijacked morality.
[2011/12/27 15:53]  Julieclever: sure
[2011/12/27 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Religion didn’t hijack morality, it just shares the morality of the culture it is in.
[2011/12/27 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: mores
[2011/12/27 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp is that because certain moral vaues and or beliefs owe their existence to evolutionary drives that predate any religion?
[2011/12/27 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: It hijacked it!
[2011/12/27 15:53]  Chraeloos: Right Scarp, that’s all I’m saying, is that people without religion borrow different morals, but religion supplies the morals indefinitely. It’s a way for people who either don’t have the means or the will to explore other systems.
[2011/12/27 15:54]  Kei Saito: so you find religion as moral?
[2011/12/27 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Thou Shalt not kill wasn’t invented by western religion, it came about by tens of thousands of years of experience that it is not a survivable trait for a group to have.
[2011/12/27 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: the problem with most religions it that their morality is just old 🙂
[2011/12/27 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Religions have claimed to be the source and justification of morality, thereby disparaging the non-relgious as being amoral. That’s unfair. They should never have gotten away with it.
[2011/12/27 15:54]  Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy haha, at least in most cases
[2011/12/27 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: morality is a fluid thing, relative
[2011/12/27 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW I personally believe there is such a variety of religious belief that everyone is bound to find at least one theu can identify with. I for one rather like the transhuman branch of Mormonism.
[2011/12/27 15:55]  Kei Saito: so you do not believe in a basic right & wrong?
[2011/12/27 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: why religion could not be ethic , there is a difference between how a religion can be corrupted and the idea of religion
[2011/12/27 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kei: of course not
[2011/12/27 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: Right and Wrong is present in all cultures throughout history. It is not an invention of religion.
[2011/12/27 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: hello hercimus
[2011/12/27 15:55]  Sophiekittycat: hello
[2011/12/27 15:55]  Chraeloos: I never said it was, Scarp.
[2011/12/27 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: But does religion serve to convey right or wrong?
[2011/12/27 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie, religion is not about “identifying with” something. It’s about faith. It’s about believing that your way is right and everybody else is wrong because you’ve been taught you’re *supposed* to believe that.
[2011/12/27 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: well, pigs are crap apparently
[2011/12/27 15:56]  Sophiekittycat: i doubt that it was a time without religion , most humans would feel abandonned in a world that offert no hope
[2011/12/27 15:56]  Chraeloos: I’m merely saying that religion was a system set up in order for people to be “dedicated” to a set of morals, in a way
[2011/12/27 15:56]  Chraeloos: Primitives were unable to grasp the idea of religion, as far as we know (correct me if I’m wrong)
[2011/12/27 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: religion existed because humans need to have hope in something, to think that there is a goal in life else just being and dying
[2011/12/27 15:57]  Kei Saito: how do you know that?
[2011/12/27 15:57]  Julieclever: the sun was the God for them
[2011/12/27 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: But I know religious people who do not hold such fundamentalist views, Zo.
[2011/12/27 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Praise Celestia! 😀
[2011/12/27 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: religion existed, and exists, because it’s engineered to prevail
[2011/12/27 15:57]  Sophiekittycat: what are primitives ?
[2011/12/27 15:58]  Chraeloos: primitives are ancient people, those who were “less evolved” than we are now.
[2011/12/27 15:58]  Sophiekittycat: old humans had same cognitive and mind than us and we have trace of their religions we just not know their religions but we found statues
[2011/12/27 15:58]  ergan Breuilly: maybe some croyances? dans le feu? le ciel? la nature!*
[2011/12/27 15:58]  ergan Breuilly: Some beliefs maybe? in the fire? the sky? Nature! *
[2011/12/27 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: you will believe in jesus, OR YOU WILL BURN IN HELL AND SUFFER UNBEARABLE PAIN FOREVER
[2011/12/27 15:58]  Kei Saito: & maybe one day we will find they were right & we are not
[2011/12/27 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: tada, an idea that survives 2000 years
[2011/12/27 15:58]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2011/12/27 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: +1 Ivy
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: jesus never said it himself it is men who said this ivy
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Chraeloos: Ah, well at some stage of our history humans did not have a religious system that we know of, as Extie said around 3million years ago
[2011/12/27 15:59]  ergan Breuilly: les premières croyances étaient très primaires!
[2011/12/27 15:59]  ergan Breuilly: initial beliefs were very elementary!
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: According to The Book, he actually said a *lot* of stuff like that.
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Kei Saito: how do we know that?
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: yes, well, Jesus was probably some poor guy who just wanted to do tables like his dad
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Really comes off as quite an egomaniac.
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Sophiekittycat: we mistake between the idea of religion as a philosophy of hope and the idea of religion asa tool of power used by some men
[2011/12/27 15:59]  Chraeloos: Agreed Sophie
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Chraeloos: Having explanations for the world around us is different than believing in a higher being or entity
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: all ideologies all philosophies were warped and used for power , should we live as robots ina world without philosophy or ideologies ?
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: And those types are still around even today, as per example of David Koresh.
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Primitive is a relativer term. Put any one of us in the Congo and we would die withing a week or two, desite being surrounded by resources that a native of the rainforest is educated to know how to use.
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Prax (praxisfield): some of the very first paintings in caves show a supernatural expression of aniimals – I doubt there was ever a time of no religion, perhaps just an undeveloped one
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, David Koresh himself isn’t actually still around, but you know how that went. 😛
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: as far than science searched we find ideas of religions in statues in burial rituals
[2011/12/27 16:00]  Sophiekittycat: there is no know civilisation without spirituality
[2011/12/27 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: yet 😉
[2011/12/27 16:01]  ergan Breuilly: yes true! but rituals are not from religion?*
[2011/12/27 16:01]  ergan Breuilly: yes true! goal rituals are not from religion? *
[2011/12/27 16:01]  Chraeloos: What about before civilization, though?
[2011/12/27 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: spiritual is kind of a vague term.
[2011/12/27 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: Yes Sophie, the “will to power” of religious leaders is a major reason for the prevalence of religion over time. AND it is a separate issure from the ‘explanatory’ function of religion.
[2011/12/27 16:01]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: what about the idea of ancestor worship, ordinary people transform into powerful spirits after death?
[2011/12/27 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m very spiritual -> http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/spirits/img1055320727.jpeg
[2011/12/27 16:02]  Kei Saito: I think we have lost the original question… why more religion today?
[2011/12/27 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: we mess between organised religions as we have know, and believings, not all religions need church or hierarchy
[2011/12/27 16:02]  Chraeloos: lol Ivy
[2011/12/27 16:02]  Sophiekittycat: some religions can only exist in people heart not in rituals
[2011/12/27 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: As I mentioned before, dreaming about somebody after they’ve died is a powerful and unsettling experience.
[2011/12/27 16:02]  ergan Breuilly: :)!*
[2011/12/27 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Well no the original question is to do with the origin of religion.
[2011/12/27 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: So it’s very easy to imagine how a mythos of some sort could arise from that.
[2011/12/27 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: how about we focus on how to stop people from dying rather than building more churches? 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: I think we know why there is lots of it. It is a good meme.
[2011/12/27 16:03]  Kei Saito: There was a time when there was no religion on Earth. Now, there is lots of it. Why?
[2011/12/27 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kei: yes, before, there were no humans
[2011/12/27 16:03]  Kei Saito: that was the question
[2011/12/27 16:03]  Kei Saito: Now, there is lots of it. Why?
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Prax (praxisfield): the origina of religion seems straighforward, what mihgt be the next step?
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: because now there are humans 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Sophiekittycat: ivy mankind without philosophy without spirituality and just science would make us be bots, it is because humans can dream or hope that we have art that we have community moments, else we would just be hopeles stools
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Sophiekittycat: tools oops
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Chraeloos: lol
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok but I am the chairperson so if I say the discussion is about the origins of religion, that is what the discussion is about:)
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Kei Saito: being human does not necessarily mean I am religious
[2011/12/27 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: who said without philosophy? I like philosophy, as much as impractical it is
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: religion is a philosophy
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Kei Saito: so more people does not mean more religion
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: and a square is a rectangle 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: you cant remove to someone their beliefs their hopes
[2011/12/27 16:05]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: instead of individual shamans sharing their visions, religions were written down and fixed
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Chraeloos: Different types of people, Kei.
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: True Kei…But some would argue it means you have a tendency towards religious beliefs.
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t care much for philosophy either.
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Sophiekittycat: religion come from this from hope from fear from desire that it exist a goal something that will save us or give us a way
[2011/12/27 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: No? Strange. I love it!
[2011/12/27 16:06]  Kei Saito: why would that tendancy be there?
[2011/12/27 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: that is what we are trying to establish:)
[2011/12/27 16:06]  Kei Saito: so you are assuming it is true
[2011/12/27 16:06]  Prax (praxisfield): hardwired to seek religious explanations, but at a deeper level, perhaps we are just looking for parents
[2011/12/27 16:07]  Scarp Godenot: So my short answers to why there is religion are 1) explanation of context of self aware life 2) cultural cohesion as a survival value 3) a vehicle to obtain wealth and power over others.
[2011/12/27 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: well thank goodness I’ve a birth certificate then!
[2011/12/27 16:07]  Chraeloos: For belonging, Prax?
[2011/12/27 16:07]  ergan Breuilly: D’après les textes, les religions sont nées avec les prophètes!
[2011/12/27 16:07]  ergan Breuilly: According to the text, religions are born with the prophets!
[2011/12/27 16:07]  Prax (praxisfield): for beloging and protection
[2011/12/27 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: You know I think religion increases fear of death. To an atheist being dead is exactloy like life before you were born. That was not bad it was just…nothing. ONTH if religion is true maybe when you die you burn in hell!
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Jennys Willful: but only if you deserve to…
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Chraeloos: That’s meant to be motivation, though
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: atheists might not fear death, but I don’t think they want it 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Sophiekittycat: imagine that you look at the depth of the space , of immensity, you are small and you know that you will die, dont you want some hope, dont you wish that something exist far over you ? religion come from the fear of death and unknow, from the hope of life the hope of having a mother like or father like figure that will lead us and save us
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Kei Saito: depends on the religion…
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t at least
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Julieclever: a hope for fear, a proto philosophy, maybe religions was that in the beginning
[2011/12/27 16:08]  Kei Saito: I think they fear it as much as anyone
[2011/12/27 16:09]  Kei Saito: it is non existance as we know it
[2011/12/27 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: i dont belive in god but trust me i am jealous of true believers they dont fear they dont despare as me i fear
[2011/12/27 16:09]  Kei Saito: it is the unkown
[2011/12/27 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: precisely, it’s just silly and childish to believe in 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:09]  Kei Saito: well that was rather higher than though
[2011/12/27 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: a proto philosophy ? for greeks philosophy was a branch of metaphysic a branch of religion study
[2011/12/27 16:09]  Sophiekittycat: religion is part of phylosophie
[2011/12/27 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: But why fear it? I will never die. It is not something that can ever be part of my subjective experience. There will never be a time when Ican say ‘oh it has happened. I am dead’.
[2011/12/27 16:10]  Prax (praxisfield): the relationship to a god and the relationship of a small child to a parent is just too similart o be a coincidence
[2011/12/27 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can walk out at night, stare at the clear sky, realize how small I am in the universe, and fear is definitely not on the list of my feelings
[2011/12/27 16:10]  Prax (praxisfield): but you do fear some thigns Ivy!
[2011/12/27 16:10]  Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy
[2011/12/27 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Prax: well, yes, I fear religion LOL
[2011/12/27 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: I think evolutionarily, self awareness, which we think comes from the development of the frontal cortex of the brain, was the thing that happened that led to religion developing…?
[2011/12/27 16:11]  Sophiekittycat: because we are beings of emotions and we hope of something better than to end as worm food, because we are beings of ethic and we need someone who give us the hint that our ethic is a good one
[2011/12/27 16:11]  Chraeloos: That’s a good point, Scarp.
[2011/12/27 16:11]  Prax (praxisfield): I think we mihgt be getting grown up0 enought to define our own morals
[2011/12/27 16:12]  Sophiekittycat: and religion is not better or worst than being atheist , believing make you be idiot or smart , it is how you believe the point
[2011/12/27 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I disagree with Ivy. The size of the universe and everything named within it exists because our minds established theories and stuff to account for it. Far from being insignificant we are the means by which Universe understrands itself.
[2011/12/27 16:12]  Kei Saito: I would hate to think of a world where every individual determined right & wrong
[2011/12/27 16:12]  Prax (praxisfield): wow Exti – that sounds religious
[2011/12/27 16:12]  ergan Breuilly: les religions sont basées sur des textes, des écrits, some strorytellings! La race humaine a peur du vide, de l’inconnu, la religion comble ce vide!*
[2011/12/27 16:12]  ergan Breuilly: religions are based on texts, writings, Some strorytellings! The human race has fear of heights, the unknown, religion fills this gap! *
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: It is the fundamental prnciple of a religion I am helping to engineer, yes.
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Sophiekittycat: famous scientifics are people of faith, science and rationality are not opposite of religion
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: ha! But that is precisely the reason why I don’t fear being “small” (in simple physical terms)
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: (( or material if you wish ))
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Kei Saito: small is not always a good thing
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, sorry Ivy I misunderstood you.
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Kei Saito: ask an ant
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Julieclever: some of us dont have this gap to be fullfilled by religion,maybe
[2011/12/27 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: I would but ants have no language.
[2011/12/27 16:14]  Kei Saito: oh they do, you just dont understand it
[2011/12/27 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: All of human history has led to the ‘development of morals’, or, cultural mores as they are called by anthropologists and sociologists. This trial and error development has happened in thousands of ways that make it possible for large numbers of people to live together and survive. We are the end of a long long process. We don’t just ‘invent’ our mores. We adopt the ones we find to be successful for us……
[2011/12/27 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: at least not one I understand.
[2011/12/27 16:14]  Prax (praxisfield): I am not palnning to be an end 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:14]  Sophiekittycat: we are not the end we are part of a long story that i hope is not yet finished
[2011/12/27 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I hope it has no ending only endless evolution.
[2011/12/27 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: We are the end ‘at the moment’ but not the literal end.
[2011/12/27 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: Constant flux.
[2011/12/27 16:15]  Prax (praxisfield): dialectical change . . . . . .onwards
[2011/12/27 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller gets flashbacks of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw
[2011/12/27 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Is there any reason to suppose religion might actually NOT have had an origin?
[2011/12/27 16:18]  Kei Saito: doesnt everything have origin
[2011/12/27 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: No.
[2011/12/27 16:18]  Kei Saito: example
[2011/12/27 16:18]  Sophiekittycat: religion came with first human fear , first human dream, first human hope, first human need for an answer
[2011/12/27 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: religion came when humanity got a mind able of abstraction
[2011/12/27 16:19]  CullenBR: hi?
[2011/12/27 16:19]  Kei Saito: what if GOD is a part of us?
[2011/12/27 16:19]  Julieclever: abstraction to escape fear
[2011/12/27 16:19]  Sophiekittycat: god can be a part of us as we are a part of god after it is matter of personnal beliefs
[2011/12/27 16:19]  Kei Saito: soul is born within us
[2011/12/27 16:20]  Prax (praxisfield): a little poem, relevant I hope : I’m dead and God meets me at the end of the tunnel of light.
 She looks like the lady who served up school dinners when I was kid. { with thanks – “Time Bandits” }
 God : “Well Dave, how was it for you?”
 Dave : “Well, God, I liked the love bit but didn’t like the suffering bit. Was that really necessary?”
 God : “Yes”
 Dave : ” Just yes? Isn’t there some big cosmic reason for the suffering stuff?”
 God : “I guess so. Let me see . . . it’s been along time . . . . Oh yes, something to do with free will.”
 Dave : ” Ok, I have been dying to ask you something, if you’ll excuse the pun. If you made me, who made you?”
 God : “You did”
 Dave : “I knew you were going to say that”.
[2011/12/27 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, and as we learn not to fear, as we learn that achieving our dreams comes without magic, as we learn that we are not hopeless if we work for it, and as we find answers via science – we should, eventually, grow up from religion
[2011/12/27 16:20]  Kei Saito: oh I disagree
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Kei Saito: we do not always get what we work for
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: well Kei, Spinoza argues that there had to be something that is ’cause of itself’ Someting whose very nature it is to exist. You cannot explain its origin in terms of any prior cause. It just…IS!
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: I would like to make the point that religion doesn’t actually need the concept of God. There are many examples.
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Chraeloos: Ivy I think you’re right, that is the next stage
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: haha, nice punchline Prax!
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Julieclever: finding the “God” within
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Sophiekittycat: grow up from religion ? ivy you mistake honest religious feelings and what tv priest in usa or what popes or fanatics made of it
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kei: point taken, though I meant “we” as a specie in general, not individuals
[2011/12/27 16:21]  Kei Saito: & what makes Spinoza so special?
[2011/12/27 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: Kitty: no, not at all, I despise *all* religions
[2011/12/27 16:22]  Sophiekittycat: when you watch something you need to watch at the good sides as much than of bad sides or you are a fanatic of the other side
[2011/12/27 16:22]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): seems to me that religions were created in an attempt to control the masses at the time
[2011/12/27 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: I find every single religion on the planet to be utterly useless if not dangerous
[2011/12/27 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m with Ivy. I’m hoping we’ll eventually become enlightened and empowered enough for religion to fade away.
[2011/12/27 16:22]  Chraeloos: Religion is good. It serves a purpose in spreading hope and good morals. But as a society we will eventually move on, if you look at how far we’ve come it’s bound to happen.
[2011/12/27 16:22]  Prax (praxisfield): Ivy – Zen is good – has much ot offer
[2011/12/27 16:23]  Kei Saito: perhaps when we become enlightened we will find the opposite is true… we are not so smart or capable on our own
[2011/12/27 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I have my doubts about religion spreading good morals. :/
[2011/12/27 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: You have heard of him even though he lived in the 1600s. I would be VERY chuffed if people still remember me and my philosophy centuries after I cease to exist.
[2011/12/27 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, catholic church has much to offer to, doesn’t make it true
[2011/12/27 16:23]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: Ivy, so you take as a given there is no life after death or greater growth of souls beyond earth life, and work backward from there?
[2011/12/27 16:23]  Sophiekittycat: religion feeling is a good thing when you respect others, all is matter of tolerance
[2011/12/27 16:23]  Chraeloos: Well, that’s the “idea”
[2011/12/27 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: Religion become dangerous when those who believe seek to force their will on others. This is all too common.
[2011/12/27 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: I take it given that there is no life after death, and I comment on growing souls because I don’t believe in souls as such, period
[2011/12/27 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: And that’s the other thing…. Whether religion is useful is a different question from whether it’s *true*.
[2011/12/27 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: can’t comment*
[2011/12/27 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Should we devote ourselves to useful lies?
[2011/12/27 16:24]  Julieclever: “religion spreading good moral” is a mith
[2011/12/27 16:24]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: Ivy, sure, let’s say personalities, unique viewpoints, selves
[2011/12/27 16:24]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: instead of souls
[2011/12/27 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp could you have a religion that explicitely forbids that?
[2011/12/27 16:24]  Chraeloos: Why do you say that, Julie?
[2011/12/27 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Soul persists as a useful shorthand for all the qualities that make a PERSON.
[2011/12/27 16:25]  Kei Saito: organized religion is not necessarily spiritualness
[2011/12/27 16:25]  Julieclever: only look at google, what they had done in many countries
[2011/12/27 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: I think there are a few like that Extie, though the belivers seem to want to force the subject anyway. Taoism seems to be like that.
[2011/12/27 16:25]  Chraeloos: Sure Julie, but that’s the individuals perception of the religion, not the religion itself
[2011/12/27 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Is that a religion or a philosophgical way of life?
[2011/12/27 16:26]  Jennys Willful: the problem with organized religion is, any system that takes the right of self-determination away from the individual is necessarily corrupt… so that wipes out religion, but it aslso wipes out politics, the Boy Scouts and the library book club
[2011/12/27 16:26]  Sophiekittycat: religion for me is before all a matter of privacy intimacy and heart , after it is just power, rituals or deformation
[2011/12/27 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: Wait, is Google a religion now? Hmmm…. Dominion over all knowledge. “Don’t be Evil!” Maybe it is!
[2011/12/27 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: well, then I believe in improving ourselfs as such, even beyond the mere biological life on earth, but I’m afraid that can be achieved only with engineering 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: the latter at least
[2011/12/27 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: Buddhism ‘in theory’ seeks not to force itself on others, but in practice is all about severe enforcement of practice.
[2011/12/27 16:26]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: each of us has a unique history, set of memories, way of thinking. Maybe we just cry out against the total loss of something so unique as a human life
[2011/12/27 16:27]  Prax (praxisfield): hmmm we cry outg at the loss of only some humand life
[2011/12/27 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Ivy I say we should worship science and technology over God because it is more reliable in revealing truth to us and performing ‘miracles’ like healing the sick and making the lame walk.
[2011/12/27 16:27]  Julieclever: individuals are not apart the beliefs they choose
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Chraeloos: Agreed Extie
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Why do we need to worship anything, Extie?
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): religion is nothingmore than some control freaks damanding money and telling you whaht to and not to do
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Well..venerate, then.
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Zobeid: Wikipedia is a religion now! haha Give Tithing or we will die!
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: I mean aside from Celestia of course.
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Kei Saito: when all is said & done, & I rationalize & play my mind games, there is something better that lives inside me… something I aspire to be on a much deeper level
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Sophiekittycat: then science would be a religion
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: surely, every death is a loss. But I’d rather focus on longevity and defeating death (at least the death “of aging” as such) rather then delude myself with false hopes 🙂
[2011/12/27 16:28]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: Ivy, I’m agnostic. It seems possible to me if consciousness is some kind of energy, like a wave or radio signal, it might live on after death of the brain. Maybe the brain doesn’t create consciousness, just records it.
[2011/12/27 16:28]  Sophiekittycat: the problem is that we oppose religion and science but nothing oppose them
[2011/12/27 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: Science, be definition is NOT a religion. Only the religious think that it is.
[2011/12/27 16:29]  Scarp Godenot: by
[2011/12/27 16:29]  Sophiekittycat: there is people of faith among a lot of scientifics because both are not opposite
[2011/12/27 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Consciousness is more like entropy than energy.
[2011/12/27 16:29]  Sophiekittycat: science can become a religion once you begin to worship it
[2011/12/27 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: Because the universe is a heat engine, and we’re part of it.
[2011/12/27 16:30]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): agnostic means you believe there is a good. and you dont need a temple or preacher to guid e you
[2011/12/27 16:30]  Chraeloos: Or maybe the US government as a stargate and we are speaking of religious beings that are real people. haha
[2011/12/27 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: we feed on the energy slope that is entropy.
[2011/12/27 16:30]  Sophiekittycat: the french revolution created a reason godess and embodiment of science and rationality in the rituals of religion
[2011/12/27 16:30]  Scarp Godenot: Science is changeable and never held firmly, everything is up for debate and nothing is stable, this is the exact opposite of religion.
[2011/12/27 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rev: I’d rather think that consciousness is more like software than energy. Obviously I can’t provide you with any proof or even a clear definition of what a consciousness actually *is*.
[2011/12/27 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Surely that was more symbolic, rather than meant to be taken literally, Sophie.
[2011/12/27 16:31]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: I believe good and evil can be defined by harm done or help done, no deity required
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Kei Saito: so if it does no harm it is good?
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Kei Saito: & vice versa?
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Sophiekittycat: good or bad are ethic concepts no need of a god for it and there is religions without concept of evil or good
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Scarp Godenot: Good and Evil is an invention of religion. Good and bad an invention of culture. There IS a difference.
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: what if it does harm that is good?
[2011/12/27 16:32]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: it’s not evil if it does n harm
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Prax (praxisfield): no deity required – end of.
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK we are nearly done. Closing statements then…religion owes its origin to…?
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: stupidity
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Dreams!
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Her Majesty Queen Heather Iwish (heather.iwish): who decides what is “good” or ” evil”?
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Prax (praxisfield): looking for mum and dad
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Sophiekittycat: to human hopes and fears,
[2011/12/27 16:32]  Kei Saito: GOD
[2011/12/27 16:33]  RevMagdalen Kyrie: networked organizations evolving out of shaman visions imho
[2011/12/27 16:33]  Julieclever: Alan Wallace makes a link between science and tibetan beliefs, proposing the study of consciousness
[2011/12/27 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK our time is up!
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