Thinkers Dec 13 2011: IF THE EURO FAILS

Khannea Suntzu: Heya all welcome to thinkers. I am dressed in a manner befitting the topic.
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): jayda
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: god..
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: There is a term from roman ages, and it’s called Nexum
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn waves and tries to se+e Khannea’s outfit
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: I can’t see you, Khannea. 😛
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): now how did my phone get naysayers out of jayda?
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Nexum was a form of financial slavery
[2011/12/13 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: prepare yourself, Gwyn;)
[2011/12/13 15:32]  Jayda Ferrentino: :/
[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: I have been using the term “Nexual Predators”.
[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Who might have an idea what I would mean with that?
[2011/12/13 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: not me.
[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Ok! here is the topic
[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: What happened in the world the last years? Is there someone to blame things are going economically ‘pretty much wrong’? Or is the system broken? Or is the human demoxratic system simply ill-equipped to deal with populist politicians promissing everyone in to irresolvable public sector debt?
[2011/12/13 15:32]  Khannea Suntzu: A week or two ago I joked to extropia, let’s do a topic on the Euro collapsing with the title “”. Since two weeks there have actually been subtle macro-economic changes that prompted me to rephrase the topic as “”. Care to discuss why this change in topic (in less than two weeks!) would be prudent?
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Old topic: ‘the eruo is doomed. what does that mean for the rest of the world
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma does not understand these titles…
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Formatting H. passed away?
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: New choice of terms was:
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Violet.
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the titles show up as “” to me)
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: ” As the euro is mostly certain to desintegrate, what are the geopolitical implications”
[2011/12/13 15:33]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): (Sorry for the predictable delay, I have massive lag right now)
[2011/12/13 15:34]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, that’s sad 😦
[2011/12/13 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: not sure if it will disintegrate
[2011/12/13 15:34]  Jayda Ferrentino: that europe is screwed
[2011/12/13 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: I have been hearing a lot of commentators talk about “the collapse of the euro”. One can safely say we are in a territory where the general population or electorate has absolutely no easy explanation what the fuck is happening. In Europe the people (and please let’s not again label them sheeple) are blaming lazy Greeks, which is probably an oversimplication and an easy cop-out blaming the victim strategy allowing the same voters to not ask what their own blame in this collective geopolitical macroeconomic clusterfuck is.
[2011/12/13 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: it will stay somehow
[2011/12/13 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: I feel old. I remember when the Euro began, and all the panic in the USA because Europe was going to economically steamroll over us. 😛
[2011/12/13 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: europe is less screwed than US tyvm
[2011/12/13 15:35]  Jayda Ferrentino: lolll really?
[2011/12/13 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh wow Zo, I had no idea….
[2011/12/13 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: I have a few questions for you to debate on, and feel free to pick and choose? Is it all caused by oil running out? And if this is only a partial explanation, how big a percentage of the corruption is the explanation? Same question, to what extent can we blame politicians? Gullible voters? Fiat currencies? ….. Israel? Muslims? Socialists? Right wing nuts? Fiscal Conservatives? Anders? America? China? The European Parliament? Greedy Bankers?
[2011/12/13 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course I also remember when Japan Inc was going to own the world.
[2011/12/13 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: And with Anders I mean Brevik clearly.
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Jayda Ferrentino: All of those?
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, lets not into “my country is less screwed than tours”
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s caused by neither of them
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Cousin Hermit: oil is NOT running out
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Care to enlighten us Ivy?
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s caused by having a currency union without fiscal union
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: simple as that
[2011/12/13 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Ohw?
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Cousin Hermit: The financial FRAUD “jig is up”
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Global warming? The Bilgerberg group? Goldman Sacks?
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A Peruvian economist just said that the problem is lack of information… you cannot run a worldwide economy without information. And right now, people don’t know where the lost money is 😉
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: How easy is it to play divide and rule in this climate?
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi cousin!
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: yes, I agree — and no checks at all
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: if a state is using same currency, it needs centralized budget
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ wise Ivy
[2011/12/13 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: unless it’s using decentralized currency, but that’s not what Euro is 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Money has value to the extent that we all accept that it has value. Any other factors are just reasons to believe or not believe in the current value.
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, private banking will provide the needed regulations
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, by decentralized I mean uncontrollable like bitcoin
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: it didn’t work. Next? 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: I find that hard to believe Rhiannon. Did I ever tell you I was still a Virgin, Rhiannon?
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: all that said EU is a bloated political pig, but that’s not what caused Euro to fail 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Scarp as well 😉
[2011/12/13 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn. Was never tried
[2011/12/13 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: I’d say that the problem is that the EU is *not* a political pig — it’s not a political union. Not yet.
[2011/12/13 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: No you are not Khannea. I should know.
[2011/12/13 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And each bout of state intervention in banking led This a depression
[2011/12/13 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, it’s a buddy union, or cartel union if you wish
[2011/12/13 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: Well If Rhiannon believes in selfregulating bankers who knows what else she might believe.
[2011/12/13 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then you will have to explain that a bit better, Rhi. I *thought* we were mostly regulated by private banking 😉
[2011/12/13 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Not *that* 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Now let’s assume we’ll have one or several gepolitical collapse stages. The most likely candidate for systemic collapse is plausible to be the Euro as a collective currency. If a Euro collapse occurs, how bad will it get in Europe? And OUTISE Europe? Timothy Geithner was dispatvhed to the EU to spread around money and cross euro palms with some dollars (and yes I’d call this both alms and bribes) to make sure Euro “technocrats” would take over management from largely slow*cum*incompetent prostiticians.
[2011/12/13 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy:; yes, exactly
[2011/12/13 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: fuck democracy, fuck referendums, let’s make ourselves not one but two parliament buildings and have awesome salaries!
[2011/12/13 15:40]  Cousin Hermit: :o)
[2011/12/13 15:40]  Scarp Godenot: National borders mean less than they used to. Financially, national borders have even less meaning. Mostly because All the economies of the world are completely owned by and intertwined with each other.ed
[2011/12/13 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Notes the variation on argument from intimidation as a substitute for real reasoning
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: ohow host crashed 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I’m interested in knowing what you mean with more private banking self-regulating, Rhi
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: oops there goes Khannea.
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Khannea
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Trying to convince me you’re illogical, Khan?
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb!
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wow.
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Cousin Hermit: Does everyone understand the concept of “Fabianism”? –>
[2011/12/13 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): First time someone crashed after using a logical fallacy
[2011/12/13 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: I loved Farage’s little speech about Britain being reduced to a country like Switzerland if it leaves EU
[2011/12/13 15:42]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.
[2011/12/13 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not, Cousin. Care to explain?
[2011/12/13 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Scarp, but the problem is that there is a central currency, but distributed planning across arbitrarily defined borders….
[2011/12/13 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy. It has that much cheese in the UK?
[2011/12/13 15:42]  Cousin Hermit: Fabianism is the relentless “Pursuit of Power” by any means necessary.
[2011/12/13 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: that is – he would love to being reduced to a country that’s actually richest in Europe, has same trading deals with EU states, while not being in the nuthouse 😀
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  nicely put
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: OK.
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: “Self Regulation” means no regulation and leads to the kind of financial collapse we had in 2008, where finance became only a game consisting of ‘bets’ on pyrimid schemes of fake value.
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: and yes – what Gwyn said 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): 2007 wasn’t a period of self regulations
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d like to hear you counter Scarp’s argument, Rhi….
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: wow Khannea is having a tough time today.
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): 2008
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: poor Khannea. It’s the European conspiracy after her!
[2011/12/13 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: I also love that Poland will pay for Greece now, while polish retirement pays 1/3 of what Greeks get
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo you think, Gwyn?
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  not this time. on my phone and have to leave soon
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: blog about it then 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aw Rhi — ok!
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m sure we could find somebody to argue that 2008 was a product of too *much* regulation. (It wouldn’t be me, but I’m just saying. There’s always somebody.)
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: and we do so because we want to 😀 (or rather our gov wants to)
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: Have some firestorm graphics issues
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): but I will say his example fails.Huge amount of regulation in 2008.
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Cousin Hermit: Fabianism link –>
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Scarp Godenot: Did you know that Greece has less per capita debt than almost all other European countries?
[2011/12/13 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: awww stay, Rhi! Thinkers needs you.
[2011/12/13 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, I’m curious because I always thought that the mess we’re in is because of a total lack of regulation, or rather, even where is a bit of regulation, itg has been mostly ignored. So how would even less regulation actually make the mess go away?
[2011/12/13 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: Fabianism, eh? great time to land in the middle of a discussion
[2011/12/13 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, so does my purse. Shave a client soon
[2011/12/13 15:45]  Cousin Hermit: Democracy is just another word for BAIT-n-SWITCH!
[2011/12/13 15:45]  Lulu Lacrima: hello everyone, Rhi, Ari, Zo
[2011/12/13 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi lulu
[2011/12/13 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: the problem with Greece i: do you trust those figures? I don’t 🙂 Why should I? all others have been shown to be fake….
[2011/12/13 15:46]  Lulu Lacrima: everybody else hullo
[2011/12/13 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya Lulu 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: hello
[2011/12/13 15:46]  Scarp Godenot: Searches for an explanatory graphic I saw a week or two ago…..
[2011/12/13 15:46]  Chraeloos: Hi lulu
[2011/12/13 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: maybe because they don’t have that much GDP per capita to begin with, hahaha
[2011/12/13 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: I am perplexed at how hostile some people are towards anyting they can vaguely associate with socialism. Still decades after communism failed. I feel free to label this Pinochetism. Cuban Immigrant syndrome. Irrational hatred for egalitarianism.
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  the argument is That the mess we’re in is due to regulation and the political manipulation of them.
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I think that we actually don’t *know*, Ivy.
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Rhi. I’m fine with “political manipulation”,
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And no regulation, no possibility of political manipulation
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Are “we” effectively “clueless”, Gwyn?
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but in effect, the past 7 years have been as close to laissez-faire capitalism as we can get
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Cousin Hermit: No single “system” will work, organization needs to be “dynamic” and flexible.
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: no — *I* am 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: ah Ok!
[2011/12/13 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, not completely clueless
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: we know that Greece is a black hole, we just don’t know how deep
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: hehe
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh… let;s complicate matters. And then there is the general movement we have now come to label “Occupy”. They are for some reason pissing off authorities. Why the hell, IF Occupy would be so inconsequential, are we seeing gestapo style full force crackdowns on these protesters?
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and I meant 9 years — which makes sense… economic cycles, strangely enough, are in periods of 9 years — go figure)
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: good description hehe
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: but don’t worry, our political class found a good way to measure it – throw money into it until it’s ful!
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Cousin Hermit: Spain and Italy owe EACH OTHER more money than Greece is in debt.
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: full*
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: fed up with tents ruining the beauty of St Pauls, perhaps, Khannea?
[2011/12/13 15:48]  Jayda Ferrentino: it has been gestapo style cracking down on occupy, police were monitoring the LA camp
[2011/12/13 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: heh
[2011/12/13 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cousin: that’s true. And France even owes more 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  well that’s like saying right now is as close This Pluto as we can get. Still a long way off
[2011/12/13 15:49]  Teleo Aeon: Black Hole!! ? give it a couple more months, and Greece might be the first to find the higgs boson
[2011/12/13 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: can we please stop pretending that economy of states is measured in absolute terms, or is Luxemburg suddenly the poorest country ever now?
[2011/12/13 15:49]  Lulu Lacrima: lol teleo
[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant compared it with historical laissez-faire capitalism, Rhi — like, say, the late 18th century, then again the late 19th century, and now the late 20th and early 21st….
[2011/12/13 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Occupy is just Tea Party with a vaguely leftist spin instead of a vaguely rightist spin. So it’s not really new.
[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: now that’s another story! I propose to abandon Keynes 😉
[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We dropped Adam Smith when we had something better.
[2011/12/13 15:50]  Cousin Hermit: Since Spain and Italy CAN’T repay each other, should they be ALLOWED to “forgive” each other’s debt which basically “washes” TRILLIONS of dollars?!
[2011/12/13 15:50]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, the only difference between Teaparty & Occcupy is that teapartiers think government is too big while Occupy think business is too big
[2011/12/13 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’ve outlived Keynes’ usefulness. 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: Closest thing I sawto the Occupy ‘movement’ was that joke protest by Plastic Duck’s gang ion whic they stood around saying nothing, waving blank placards. At least they meant the purposless protest to be funny.
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Why was there never approximating the same crackdown against the “Tea Party” as we are now seeing against “Occupy” ?
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Cousin Hermit: Both Government and Business should be ELIMINATED!
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Lulu Lacrima: Khannea, b/c Occupy has drum circles
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because anything “leftsist” is suspicious? hehe
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: Cousin: either that, or they will pay each other interest rates forever, no big difference, just accounting
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: rubbish, Cousin:)
[2011/12/13 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth,  economic cycles aren’t nearly That predictable. Which is a pity, as every 9 years we have new political manipulation,  which would back my point. Darn it all, anyway
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cousin: right haha — and citizens should be eliminated as well, for good measure. So! No more problems!
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: I have no issues paying very high interest on monopoly money as long as I have a good laser printer in my home.
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Occupy still can’t even articulate what they want.
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Because the Tea Party worked through the political system and partially hijacked the GOP, I guess.
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Cousin Hermit: Don’t worry, a LOT of people will be eliminated next year… :o/
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I am starting to think they do not know, Zobeid.
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: or that Tea Party was in interest of corporations, and Occupy movement is against them? 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Fema camps! Immunization! Contrails!
[2011/12/13 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Rhi, I _think_ I can agree with you to some degree. If I got you right, the problem was that private banking was working well enough, when all of a sudden government(s) started to interfere for some obscure reason, and now they’re just trying to extinguish the fire with oil?
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: No, the Tea Party is fairly ticked off at Big Business too.
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: riiiiiight
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cousin: 250,000 people die every day.
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: Chemtrails! Fluor! Bilderberg!
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: I guess that’s why big businesses payed them 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: zobeid, I don’t think that’s the case–I think the problem is that there are no single phrase memes, other than “we are the 99%” b/c Occupiers decie on everything in a very democratically slow process
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: OK, here is a graphic that is quite interesting. And it is percentage of debt owned by other countries AND per capita foreign debt of those countries.
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gen. That is right.
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe they’ll eventually get their act together.
[2011/12/13 15:53]  Lulu Lacrima: zo, the Tea party would rather see tax cuts for big business than social benefits
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: I visited a few Occupy camps. They annoy the shit! out of me.
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: Notice that Ireland has ten times more per capita foreign debt than greece
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Scarp that may be so, but the Irish look more aryan.
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve seen a nice speech on “non violent struggle” on TEDx, it’s now online on youtube, Sedra Popovic (Serbian) was the speaker if I get the name right (and I’m pretty sure I don’t given I don’t have access to the alphabet)
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: And the UK has triple the per capita foreign debt of Greece
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: All I know is, Occupiers fill my social networks with a lot of bad things to say about corporations too big and powerful to care what they think.
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Lulu Lacrima: aryan o_O
[2011/12/13 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But the reasons weren’t obscure.  Like J. P. Morgan insisted on The Fed Reserve as a condition of loaning money to help his investments
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: he explained quite nicely the difference between movements that do change something, and those that don’t
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Caucasian? “Blue eyed”? Less Garlic?
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: chances are, Occupy movement won’t change anything
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, neither will the tea party
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, what were some of the biggest/major differences
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Teleo Aeon: I’ll believe a corporation is a person when Texas executes one
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: complaining vs taking action, mostly
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I must go teach my student. TC everyone!
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks, Scarp)
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Rhi!
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t want to diminish the speech, let me find it
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: what is happening is that *everybody* wants to see congress work together for a change
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Scarp Godenot: For those who missed it. Interesting international debt graphic. Click on the country ring on the edge.
[2011/12/13 15:55]  Lulu Lacrima: bye rhi
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: You can sort of kill a corporation.
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Tea Party has already had a *little* influence. But it’s hard to shake up the system. The military-industrial-congressional complex is deeply entrenched.
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Chraeloos: Bye Rhi!
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: here
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I saw a similar graphic half a year ago, Scarp, but not with so many countries in it.
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller:
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye Gwyneth
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, that’s interesting, but ultimately not a big revelation
[2011/12/13 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This one seems nicer 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW has anyone here taken their money out of the bank and closed the account, like Zetigeist movement recommended?
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Lulu Lacrima: this is one reason why I’m not as big a fan of TED talks as some might b
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: I have not heard of that movement.
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: again, I don’t want to diminishing the talk, and I’m not able to explain to you in one sentence what they guy explains in a lenghty speech, sorry
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Chraeloos: I can’t close my bank account – how would I get paid?
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes. My bank account has been consistently empty for decades.
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: so your point is that Greece is just a convenient scapegoat? 🙂
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Lulu Lacrima: Extropia, I use a credit union which isn’t exactly the same, but it *is* workeer-owned, so to speak
[2011/12/13 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ihavw.waves and poofs
[2011/12/13 15:58]  Lulu Lacrima: Ivy, I dig it
[2011/12/13 15:58]  Lulu Lacrima: *worker owned
[2011/12/13 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: oh, hello Giles. Good to see you again.
[2011/12/13 15:58]  Gilles Kuhn: Hello to all
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: the speech was mostly about the fact that the *skills* for system changing even non violent struggle can be taught/learned
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Lulu Lacrima: bonsoir Gilles
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Lulu Lacrima: I think it’s impossible to be 100% cash in this society, but I also believe the credit union approach is a good compromise
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Gilles Kuhn: Charle you can demand your employer to pay you by check or directly in handed cash
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Let’s just say it in an allegory – if the Greeks would be as blonde as the Irish they wouldn’t be in the same trouble.
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn: My point is that those who are saying Greeks are irresponsible are just mistaken. This is a very complex issue and not easy to place blame on any particular causes.
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Lulu Lacrima: the Irish are redheads 😉
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I agree, Scarp!
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I definitely agree.
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Well, as blonde as the Icelandic then?
[2011/12/13 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: not Greeks, their government
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Greece just became a target because they publicly assumed that most of their reporting in the past 30 years has been faked
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And right, like Ivy says
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: they had bonuses for working on a computer, working on a high floor, state paid vacations etc.
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s a major government idiocy
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Lulu Lacrima: greece, heh
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gilles Kuhn: Greeks well before the turks came they were reputed to be fair headed since the ionians and doric invasions..
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: state paid meds
[2011/12/13 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: shhh Gilles, don’t tell that to a Greek citizen 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: hehe, Turkey is now showing middle finger to EU
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: Do note that the problems of the Greeks was by and large caused by elites, docters, lawyers and civil servants not paying taxes for decades.
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: is more likely to become a local leader
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can you blame them, Ivy? 🙂 I don’t 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Khannea
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Lulu Lacrima: lol Gilles
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: not at all, I’m quite happy with it actually
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gilles Kuhn: i know ouzo has nothing to do with ouzo everybody know that…
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: competition is *good*
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gilles Kuhn: with Raki *
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: agreed haha
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, until tanks are involved, hehe
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: OOps. Right!
[2011/12/13 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: I’m also saying that the amount of the debt is commensurate to other western countries. What economists are worried about is a loss of confidence more than anything else.
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Scarp.
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: So far as I can see with my terrible grasp of economics, this whole mess was down to us spending money we did not have.
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because of lack of information!
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I blame Keynes! Sort of.
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s a good way to put it, Extie
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Lulu Lacrima: Extropia, that’s the fundamental issue
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: yes, that’s essentially what democratic governments do
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: by ‘us’ I mean the dreaded Them of course.
[2011/12/13 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *totally* blames Keynes. Or, better, I blame those that believe that Keynes’ models tying an economy’s value to ONLY industrial output is fundamentally flawed.
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: Dante had a very deep circle of hell for he usurers
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Chraeloos: How do we spend money we don’t have? I’m terrible with economics. I understand that we do it I just don’t understand how.
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Or rather, I blame the politicians who seized on Keynes’s ideas and twisted them almost beyond recognition for their own purposes.
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: although I’m not sure to what degree that was anti semitic
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, that as well, Zo
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gilles Kuhn: yes ivy and non democratic gov dont borrow because they steal or confiscate
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Teleo Aeon: well technically, all money is money you don’t have.. I guess its about the level you haven’t got of it, thats the problem. :p
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: you borrow it
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn wants to propose models based on *service* and *information*
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: So blame is basicly like a foam party – everyone is up to their neck in it?
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: borrowing is fine, but paying exorbitant interest is not
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Chraeloos: So everyone owes everyone else?
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Lulu Lacrima: a foam party?
[2011/12/13 16:03]  Gilles Kuhn: chra just go to a bank ask for a credit spend it
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Borrowing is fine as long as the risk of repayment is reasonable 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lulu: borrowing is fine, borrowing more than you can pay back is not
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Chraeloos: I understand credit cards, but whole governments doing it?
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: but also – lending more than you can is also not
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Foam p;arty :
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s where I disagree with Rhi (who has left us); I think we allowed banks to borrow too much
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that is lack of regulation IMHO
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gilles Kuhn: borrowing is the base of our actual economic system it impy that you borrow capital in order to win more due to what you do with it
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: But what I never can grasp is this. I owe money to the bank, which owes money to the country, which owes it to the world. which owes it to..what? I mean, who or what is it that will say ‘OK Third world, time up, pay up now!’ and if the Third World cannot or wll not pay its debt, what happens?
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Chraeloos: I agree Gwyn
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: oh there was somewhere “what if US was a household” table, I must find it for you! 😀
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gilles Kuhn: problem is that it dont work so easily often
[2011/12/13 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also a lack of information: knowing how much to borrow is allowed
[2011/12/13 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: Money needs to be tied to production, but in the last thirty years, money can be made by speculation games that are irrelevant to production. This is our major worldwide economic problem. It can only be solved by stopping the financial games like unlimited futures trading and credit default insurance schemes.
[2011/12/13 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: I have been using the explanations of one Chris Martenson since 2005 as a guidance stick for the mess we are in. >>
[2011/12/13 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: quoting an (in)famous ex-Prime Minister of my country, “countries don’t pay debts, they negotiate them”
[2011/12/13 16:05]  Chraeloos: Extropia I’m with you in that question
[2011/12/13 16:05]  Gilles Kuhn: extro money is an artificial thing it is created by central bank by fiat and has to reflect some economic exchange
[2011/12/13 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: bah, no luck
[2011/12/13 16:06]  Gilles Kuhn: scarp i agree
[2011/12/13 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Scarp, I heard a banker say the problem was that investoirs started gambliong with other people’s money. And when it is not *your* money you take much bigger risks.
[2011/12/13 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: why to production? Isn’t “service” a valid way to tie money to? That’s why I disagree with the Keynesian models. Modern Western countries are *essentially* about services, even though most of the wealthiest countries in tghe world are also industrial and agricultural powerhouses.
[2011/12/13 16:06]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima yawns
[2011/12/13 16:06]  Scarp Godenot: If you will notice that when a company announces quarterly profits, it is irrelevant what the profit is. The only thing that counts is did the prediction match the reality. A company can make a large profit and still have its stock value fall because of this ridiculous situation.
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: not quite, actually it’s private banks that “create” money.
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Central banks just shuffle it around.
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: which is OK if the gambling pays off, you make huuuuuge profits. But when it goes wrong, you bring the bank down.
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Lulu Lacrima: money is a social construction to be sure
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: scarp: yes 😦
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: for sure, Lulu.
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Lulu Lacrima: all of mine is digital
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gilles Kuhn: gwyn there is no difference money speaking between production and service its all about money moving
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Lulu Lacrima: except when it’s cash lol
[2011/12/13 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Might a large contributing factor be that at some point producing countries are mostly ‘done’ and consum,ers satisfied? So everyone is out of work, wages don’t rize but the economic wheels have to keep spinning?
[2011/12/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: depends, depends
[2011/12/13 16:08]  Gilles Kuhn: gwyn no the centrals bank create money not the private one
[2011/12/13 16:08]  Lulu Lacrima: khannea, I think what happens in a consumeristic society is that the companies “create needs” that don’t really exist
[2011/12/13 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gilles: actually, that’s not entirely true
[2011/12/13 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Money is created when you lend money at an interest, Gilles: that way, there is *more* money around.
[2011/12/13 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: Khannea, the economy cannot get a good start again, because banks aren’t lending. Why aren’t they lending? They don’t need to lend to make money anymnore….. simply put.
[2011/12/13 16:08]  Lulu Lacrima: one good example occured at the end of the 19th/start of the 20th century–women’s shaving
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug: Xcite! Horsetail Vibrating Plug is inserted deep inside a shuddering Khannea Suntzu.
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah. Who NEEDS Second Life?
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: private banks can actually “create” money, or at very least create inflation 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Khannea!
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gilles Kuhn: Ivy if i could sauy the entire truth i would be a prophet and you would all crucify me 😉
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just like Ivy said.
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no, Gilles
[2011/12/13 16:09]  Lulu Lacrima: men’s razor blade manufacturers wanted to sell more razor blades, and so they designed ads to promote this social (non)standard of shaved armpits & legs
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: and voilà
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Ivy meant is that new money is created by private banks when they lend at an interest. That’s the major contribution to an increased amount of money around.
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: half the world became a new market
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: pah
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: anyone seen that ‘money is debt and debt is money’ explanation from Zeitgeist: Addendum, a documentary film on youtube?
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww Lulu. Really? Not that I should be surprised…
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Lulu Lacrima: Yeah, Gwyneth
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: yes, and yes money is debt, our monetary system is a debt based one
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gilles Kuhn: yes but no gwyn the private bank lend on her money but its a money she had but the bank can borrow to the central bank which create fiat money to do so
[2011/12/13 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn stops shaving her armpits
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Lulu Lacrima: also, think about how we’re so used to kleenex and paper towels
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: So our economic system IS a bubble over overallocation?
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: It is all about the fractional reserve and how it works. I have not idea if it is telling the truth, but if it is, it is crazy!
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: Ivy, banks ‘make’ money by use of the national banks reserve requirements being small, and that makes money get lent out on about a 10 to one reserve ration. But national Banks are critical in that process.
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, Gilles, banks lend money they do NOT have.
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: yes 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Gilles Kuhn: yes they have it gwyn only its not their own its what you give them
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Banks get freedom to create money, yes this is correct.
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Lulu Lacrima: this is why I use a credit union!!!
[2011/12/13 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Scarp said, banks usually have just a small percentage of the actual money on hand
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Credit unions supposedly do the same 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Lulu Lacrima: they don’t use *your* money unless you say it’s okay!
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: obviously with no national bank to emitt money, private banks would have limited options, hehehe
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima LOVES HER CREDIT UNION
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gilles Kuhn: repeat banks cannot create money only central banks can do so
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Scarp Godenot: The National Banks actually create the money by having it borrowed by the private banks after the reserve is deposited.
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles, you should go and check up on that
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it true that if literally all debt was paid off, money would cease to exist?
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gilles Kuhn: gwyn you too
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Gilles, touché 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:12]  Teleo Aeon: well you usually have national mints
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Gilles yes but banks are constantly awarded this money by central banks, by buying government red ink.
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Lulu Lacrima: extropia, I don’t think so; people would still want to exchange goods for goods, or service for goods, or vice versa
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gilles: they can’t print money, but they can actually insert it into the market
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Lulu Lacrima: it’s always been that way
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Lulu Lacrima: the silk road and all that
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gilles Kuhn: true khan and more central bank always lend to banks
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Scarp Godenot: IN a sense the private banks ‘make’ the money, because that process happens when money is lent out by the private banks….
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: good point, Lulu.
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Chraeloos: But do we need money, or just goods/services for goods/services?
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I’ll rephrase that: in *my* country, money is *mostly* created by private banks 😉 *other* countries might have different mechanisms to create money, but I can predict that most use the same mechanisms 😉
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Teleo Aeon: I guess a bunch opperates electronically too now.. so maybe theres a varient of printed money which stays in electronic form
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look, only 1/3 of all Euros in circulation are printed.
[2011/12/13 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The rest is digital.
[2011/12/13 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: We absolutely need money because the economy is far to complex for trade alone.
[2011/12/13 16:14]  Gilles Kuhn: ivy printing or inserting is the same in fact but private bank cannot create money as the central banks can do
[2011/12/13 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chraeloos: money is just a convenient way to do barter 😀
[2011/12/13 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: I’m of opinion that yes, we “need” money as much as we need wheels. We could probably imagine a world without wheels, but it would be a pain in the ass. The question is of the *implementation* of money, not the *concept* of it.
[2011/12/13 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I reckon 98% of all money exists entirely in computers. At least 98%.
[2011/12/13 16:14]  Chraeloos: I don’t find it convenient, especially when I don’t have any. I’d much rather trade service for service. Or goods
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: if buy that you mean that private banks cannot *print* money, that’s correct. But why should they? Most of the money world-wide isn’t printed anyway.
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: For the dollar it is less than 10%. A lot of dollars are phantom clouds in Saudi Arabian or Chinese coffers. Basicly the dollars don’t exist, but the US allows these debtors to hold their hands warm in their rectum, sort of. It’s a service.
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Cousin Hermit: Does anyone know about the “Bank for International Settlements”?
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: not I.
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Lulu Lacrima: Lulu Lacrima loves the word “reckon”
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: Printed money is just a practicality, most money is just ledger money. That is why money relies on belief in its value.
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: there is only so much a blowjob can buy
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Lulu Lacrima: lol Ivy
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Scarp and Khannea
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I dunno. I charge a fortune for fellatio. But then, I am very good.
[2011/12/13 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: The blowjob economy has seriously delflated the value of money in SL. It’s been blowing bubbles for years.
[2011/12/13 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha 😀
[2011/12/13 16:16]  Cousin Hermit: Bank for Int’l Settlements
[2011/12/13 16:16]  Gilles Kuhn: gwin as i have said there is no difference between printed or accounted money
[2011/12/13 16:16]  Cousin Hermit: “above” the IMF
[2011/12/13 16:16]  Teleo Aeon: BS for short ?
[2011/12/13 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm if I remember my figures correctly, last year, in my country, the amount of money in circulation (mostly in digital form) was 70x the amount of money actually coming from sales of industrial goods. The rest was only financial products — i.e. virtual money
[2011/12/13 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Kimiko!
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: But just because it’s value depends on belief, doesn’t make it not useable or not valuable. It is valuable. That value is tested every day on the money markets.
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gilles: you’re right.
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Hello Extropia. Hello everyone.
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Kimiko, hii!
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: The money markets are a measure of belief.
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: precisely, Scarp.
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rating agencies are another….;)
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: or as they say, there is the real economy, and there is the financial market that doesn’t produce anything, just trades “papers” for “papers’
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Lulu Lacrima: gotta go folks, good to chat
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s it, Ivy
[2011/12/13 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Question… and this is a political question…. have politicians and banks colluded to waylay wage increases in the 90s and oughts, by making credit so damn cheap and easy ?
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: delegalize stock markets 😀
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d love to ask Rhi if she still thinks that complete deregulation of the so-called “virtual economy” is still such a good idea 😀
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: no, I’d say it was just greed.
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really a conspiracy.
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: The stock market is dynamically unstable. It’s really deeply flawed.
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Scarp Godenot: If anyone is interested in this money economics stuff, I recommend you study the Brazilian currency and how it came to be. A real lesson in belief is reality.
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh Ok!
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Cousin Hermit: Global Corporate Control? Bilderberg Illuminati? –>
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: ask her in IM, Gwyn. She will get it on her return.
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe 😀
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: yus, which is sad, really
[2011/12/13 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: nah, I’ll let her in peace
[2011/12/13 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve a good reason to think that there is no hidden conspiracy group that controls the world economy – if there was, the world economy wouldn’t be so fucked up
[2011/12/13 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: And yet, whenever I talk to financial types, they always want me to buy stocks. When I say the word “bonds”, they deflate. It’s like the spark of life just goes out of them. 😛
[2011/12/13 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “Greed” as in: “let’s do it because we can, nobody is going to check on us, everybody is going to get more goods and money, so all will be happy, and we will never get caught getting richer”, Khannea 😉
[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love that argument, Khannea .D
[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean Ivy grr
[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *slaps her forehead*
[2011/12/13 16:20]  Cousin Hermit: There are “competing” conspiracy groups TRYING to control the world.
[2011/12/13 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller pats Gwyn
[2011/12/13 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: happens to best of us 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think they’re so organised to be “conspiracy groups”. More like “interest groups”
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Of course you could also say the conspirators are as stupid as everybody else. haha
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Cousin Hermit: watch the video…
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, I know, Ivy — senility!
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Kimiko — not as stupid, but as greedy, or even more greedt!
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *greedy
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Cousin Hermit: stupid is relative
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Scarp Godenot: There is no control, only folly…… heh
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Cousin Hermit: look at Gingrich
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Kimiko Yiyuan: Yeah, I was more referring to the “Fuckes up” part.
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ve got nothing against greed, btw — it’s a great motivator. The problem is when you lose control.
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Kimiko Yiyuan: fucked
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: the conspiracy is..there is no conspiracy;)
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Extie
[2011/12/13 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: when compared to a tree, we are all geniuses
[2011/12/13 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Trees are just smiling and saying, “Yeah, right…” 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, except for people winning darwin awards
[2011/12/13 16:22]  Gilles Kuhn: true ivy but the tree has a way longer life expectancy !
[2011/12/13 16:22]  Scarp Godenot: Scarp Godenot reminds all of the era of unfettered capitalism, now referred to as the ‘era of the Robber Barons’. Not a good thing.
[2011/12/13 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Scarp if you can affirm the fate of Formatting Heliosense I’d like a miute of total silence from all between 4:29 and 4:30 at the end of this meeting.
[2011/12/13 16:22]  Chraeloos: haha Gwyn! Agreed
[2011/12/13 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, at least we are pretty good at exterminating them, hehehe
[2011/12/13 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Scarp, we have gone through lots of cycles with more and less laissez-faire capitalism, but we never learn the lessons….
[2011/12/13 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “we” being the citizens that elect governments, too!
[2011/12/13 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: Yes, our friend Formatting Heliosense aka Patrick Millard has passed away over the weekend. We are very sad.
[2011/12/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: not just “the ones in power”
[2011/12/13 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: we never learn the lesson because the systems last longer than a generation, “we” might be the first generation to change that state of things
[2011/12/13 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: which is both amazing and scary
[2011/12/13 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we study history for something, yes?
[2011/12/13 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: hmmm..well technically speaking the outside of the tree is dead so while the tree EXISTS for up to many hundreds of years, you could argue it does not LIVE that long, becaise the living part of the tree only survives for a short period.
[2011/12/13 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: What we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history. 😛
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s supposed that we learn “don’t do this, it’s bloody nonsense”? 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Zo
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, point taken, Zo 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, our prime minister and president have master degree in history, doesn’t help, hahahaha
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re right.
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gilles Kuhn: Extropia you can have the same reasonning with us at at the cellular level..
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘all this has happened before and all of this will happen again’.
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Gilles 🙂 We’re all a mix of “living” and “dead” matter 😉
[2011/12/13 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: Eternal recurrence?
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s too much Douglas Adams for you.
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: unless you vote for me to be the Queen of Earth!
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: no Battlestar Galactica.
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ll put this planet in order *lashes a whip at the rugs*
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Queens get acclaimed, not elected, I thought….
[2011/12/13 16:26]  druth Vlodovic: maybe cycling, each type of disaster happening in turn helps the race survive
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: well, the first one currently would have to be elected
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: who gets to acclaim, Gwyn?
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: and since I’ll live forever, there is no need for replacement!
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gilles Kuhn: Gwyn I am shocked Queen are Ointed by God !!!
[2011/12/13 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the general populace, Scarp!
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ointed, right!
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d be fine with NEW disasters, druth. I’m just sad that we’re creating the very same OLD disasters over and over again.
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: I like ointed
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the phrase is..anointed?
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need a new Roosevelt in Europe to freeze all banks and restart it from scratch 😉
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: Ann ointed me last week.
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ointed is funnier, Extie!
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: politicans are oinked
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Scarp!
[2011/12/13 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: they oink like pigs 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: true:)
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oinked politicians, yes, for sure
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gilles Kuhn: yes in english barbarian tongue anointed but Oint is the true correct name
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Some pigs are more equal than others….. heh
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: People should read more Orwell!
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gilles Kuhn: and obviously only in Saint Denis Cathedral ….
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah 😀
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: Reading Orwell is like reading the newspaper!
[2011/12/13 16:28]  druth Vlodovic: well, since we are still here maybe the old diasters aren’t so bad
[2011/12/13 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: yeah, some are held for offspring, other just go straight to butchery
[2011/12/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Scarp 😛
[2011/12/13 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OK… so in a minute it is going to be 4:29 and we will have a minut silence in rememberence of Patrick Millard, the primary of Formatting Helliosense. Patrick died, sadly. OK it is now 4:29..
[2011/12/13 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, at least we know how it will end, druth? 🙂
[2011/12/13 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: As I just heard our friend Formatting Heliosense aka Patrick Millard has passed away over the weekend. I’d like a minute of respectful silence between 4:29 and 4:30 please., If anyone would like to make a brief statement please do so right after. Death is unacceptable.
[2011/12/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: ok it is 431
[2011/12/13 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: *nods*
[2011/12/13 16:31]  Gilles Kuhn: apart of the fact i consider always than the death of a human being is a tragedy i have some difficulties to understand the ceremonial of a minute of “silence” in chat….
[2011/12/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Digital people do not die. They just stop logging in.
[2011/12/13 16:31]  druth Vlodovic: you’re supposed to do it in rl
[2011/12/13 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah I know.
[2011/12/13 16:31]  druth Vlodovic: pause your thoughts and emotions for a bit
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was thinking about that, Gilles, it’s curious how we humans carry with us so many rituals.
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gilles: it’s symbolic, we humans give value to symbolic things, be it marriage, minute of silence, or money
[2011/12/13 16:32]  druth Vlodovic: it has functional purposes
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well put, Ivy.
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Chraeloos: Nice Ivy
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gilles Kuhn: well ritual give sense and meaning where there is none is not for nothing most ritual are related to death
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: so time up for Khannea’s topic.
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Maybe extropia has the inspiration for the usual poem?
[2011/12/13 16:32]  Gilles Kuhn: ivy i know that but even so….
[2011/12/13 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Next week is not a discussion, but my yearly lecture.
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