Thinkers December 06 2011: Mind/Matter

 Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/12/06 15:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes it sure is.
[2011/12/06 15:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: and the heavens shall tremble!
[2011/12/06 15:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: or perform a wafe function….
[2011/12/06 15:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we ask a question that has vexed philosophers since the days of Socrates. Well, we will come to a final conclusion within the hour! Or maybe not..
[2011/12/06 15:31]  ArtCrash Exonar: wave
[2011/12/06 15:31]  Frederick Hansome: lol
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: The topic for today is..
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: MIND/ MATTER what is more fundamental, mind or matter?
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Matter!
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: the end.
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Frederick Hansome: Mind. The end.
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Naturespaw Bestijl: What he said.
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: The available evidence suggests matter was around long before minds. :/
[2011/12/06 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: what does fundamental mean?
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: matter
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Amandeep Timeless: no matter, no mind
[2011/12/06 15:32]  Naturespaw Bestijl: mind is made of matter..
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: No way. Many examples of matterw ithout mind. No examples of mind outside of matter.
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Naturespaw Bestijl: but mind controls matter
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Amandeep Timeless: plenty of matter with mind, just look at the GOP
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: that doesn’t make it fundamental Naturespaw 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Amandeep Timeless: *without
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Fundamantell in that it arose first.
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Mind is an amazing epiphenomenon of matter. But so far on a cosmic scale mind is a rounding error or the rounding error called life. So far.
[2011/12/06 15:33]  Amandeep Timeless: mind after the fact
[2011/12/06 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: uh oh, I can feel it coming on….. solipsism on the way….
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Frederick Hansome: Plenty of matter without mind, Just look at the GOP
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW I am lumping ‘energy’ togthere with ‘matter’ because they are the same.
[2011/12/06 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Frederick
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: what’s GOP?
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Gwyn!
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi all 😀
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Amandeep Timeless: a political party
[2011/12/06 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: Republican party = Grand Old Party
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Frederick Hansome: Grand Old Party: Republicans
[2011/12/06 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: aha
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Amandeep Timeless: one with no mind, the other with no spine
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey,. Gwyn, we came to an agreemen already. Matter is more fundamental than mind.
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wow that was quick.
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Amandeep Timeless: mind derives from matter
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And what was the reason given for that?
[2011/12/06 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Bishop Berkeley would disagree with that.
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Frederick Hansome: More fundamental but imperceptable without mind
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: matter is on some level a parent abstract context for mind 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Simple. Numerous examples of matter without a mind. Zero examples of mind without mattter.
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok ok, so let’s start with the very basic question —
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: what IS matter?
[2011/12/06 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: Maybe strings are perception
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Amandeep Timeless: mind dependent on matter, but not vice versa
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Stuff.
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Secondly, how do you recognise matter as such?
[2011/12/06 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: super strings I mean
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: need more controversial topix… 😛
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: how does that help us, given we don’t know what mind is 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And thirdly, how can you talk about matter?
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: We judge because we have a mind. This a seriously problematic thing to ask. It is almost as if you are fucking around with dualism, Extropua.
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah Ivy …
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BUT
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Frederick Hansome: Matter exists and mind is only a construct of matter, so they cannot really be compared
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: Hw come?
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Naturespaw Bestijl: without a mind though, could we even concieve, matter?
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: even if you don’t knwo what mind is,
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Naturespaw Bestijl: the theory of matter is a construct from mind
[2011/12/06 15:36]  Amandeep Timeless: we know what matter is when it hits us in the face…often quite literally
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you have one.
[2011/12/06 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: The trouble with this argument is that it might be a false dichotomy.
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have one mind. You don’t need to know what it is or how it works :)=
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: supposedly I do, yes 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: I see where Gwyn is going. The only access to reality I have is my mind, so how can I speak of anything outside of it?
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yppers.
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: simple, the same way we speak about anything else
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: we just assume some axioms
[2011/12/06 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Matter is an idea we all agree on.
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Ivy!
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, to discuss matter, you need — concepts.
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Abstract things. Axioms. Ideas
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Frederick Hansome: Hard to argue with physics (matter)
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: to discuss it – yes, for it to exist – no
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, where do these come from?
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Amandeep Timeless: our perception has no effect on whether matter exists or not (perception may affect how we percieve it, but not whether it’s there or not)
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Emprical evidence?
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: REALLY, Amandeep….
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2011/12/06 15:38]  Frederick Hansome: Agreed, Amandeep
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is “empirical evidence”?
[2011/12/06 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Frederick, the solipsists argue that physics is just a form of self deception.
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: Can we envisiion a type of intelligent aliens that would have absolutely no conception (haha) of the human erlebnis of mind?
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Words.
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure we can, Khannea, but for us they would be mindless. Like rocks.
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But let’s not get sidetracked here.
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: but rocks are conscious (c) Rhi 😉
[2011/12/06 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: We cannot prove that rocks are mindless
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Amandeep Timeless: matter exists ‘a priori’ to our explanations or understandings
[2011/12/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie asked a good question. We perceive things to exist through empirical evidence.
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Thing is, Gwyn, I cannot change a blue sky into green just by willing it. So that implies somethin beyond my mind and out of my control.
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can’t?
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can!
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: The aliens ask us with some perplexed sensory apparatus “what the fuck are you guys going on about this thing you call mind???”
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just close my eyes and *imagine* that!
[2011/12/06 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: you have to assume it
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: you are just not willing hard enough
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: But *the* sky does not change.
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, someone’s blue sky is someone else’s green sky, Which one is the real sky?
[2011/12/06 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: both are 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whispers: The sky doesn’t change? It changes every day!
[2011/12/06 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: actually that color stuff has been proven to be hard wired.
[2011/12/06 15:41]  <<UrbanizeD>> Armchair “Emanuelle’s Sisters” // Pure Mono: Restricted to owner only!
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Naturespaw Bestijl: point. The perception of color is another produce of mind
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: erg
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Er I meant gwyn has a point
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Not because I will it, though.
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait. So are you saying that just because you cannot will the sky to change, mind is less important than matter?
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: perception of anything only exists in the mind 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Although, in here, I can make the sun set and rise whenever I want;)
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I blame Flash for that crash. Flash is my new scapegoat for all my computer problems. 😛
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are a couple of logical flaws in that argument 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: important Gwyn?
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Naturespaw Bestijl: I presume the argument is mind came before matter?
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wb Zo 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Apparently that was the conclusion, I’m just starting from it 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why “before”, nature?
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, nature
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Amandeep Timeless: the changes not brought by direct will (perhaps enough factory pollutants can change the general pattern of angstroms)
[2011/12/06 15:42]  Frederick Hansome: Mind cound not possibly come before matter
[2011/12/06 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: I predicted that this will just be a solipsistic argument. And it has become that.
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Earlier, someone defined fundamental as that which came first
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Violette McMinnar: mind governs everything within the body :o) it is superioir to the body
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: yup Art, always fun 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Matter could not possiblke come before mind, either 😉
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: why solipsistic?
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The world is not just solipsistic vs. non-solipsistic hehe
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah Nature
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Though I also don’t undertand. Where is the logical progression by which the lack of the sky changing by will leads to the conclusion of matter being fundamental?
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it’s a chicken and egg problem, mmh?
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Frederick Hansome: How come Gwnyeth?
[2011/12/06 15:43]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Keep in mind ( :p ) that arguments for mind as the fundamental reality are usually more about *awareness* than personal minds
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re notoriously good at getting stumped with chicken-and-egg problems hehe
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (quite so, Violet 😉 )
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nature: that was my question too.
[2011/12/06 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn you start with the premise that knowing only happens within oneself and does not acknowledge either the existence of others or the world.
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think it’s pretty much unsolvable…what’s matter without perception? What’s perception without externality?
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Gwyn, is is a philosopher’s Royal Flush. If you accuse anyone or anything of being solipsist you say ‘what nonesense. End of discussion’.
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I do? Wow. Amazing what you can see in my mind 😉
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Amandeep Timeless: the egg (a creature not completely chicken gave the mutation of chicken…preceeding that is the amino acids and proteins star remenant elements)
[2011/12/06 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I certainly don’t lol
[2011/12/06 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I don’t see it in your mind, only in your arguments
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: funny, I’d say that
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller chuckles
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Rhi
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Ivy
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Rhi
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I apologise, for I didn’t intend my arguments to sounmd that way; the limitations are of mymind, that cannot convey information correctly 😉
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi violet
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Amandeep Timeless: my 2nd fav phrase: “It’s a luxury to be understood.” -Ralph Waldo Emerson
[2011/12/06 15:45]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Dali
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Aman 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My arguments (and they’re not “mine” at all, I just happen to agree with them) is that by merely having a discussion about matter we need a mind.
[2011/12/06 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think that we need to start this argument over with this premise: Given: matter exists
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Without mind, we cannot discuss matter.
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with that premise, Art
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Matter exists.
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Premise #2: We can talk about matter.
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, that’s the thing, mind is always epistemologically prior to matter
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Both exist; and are pretty meaningless without each other, IMO
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Amandeep Timeless: discussing and thinking about matter need mind
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Art, does that premise also include that matter can exist without mind?
[2011/12/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (in the sense: we can define what we mean by ‘matter’, and convey it to others)
[2011/12/06 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes Naturespaw it does.
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amandeep: exactly.
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: But I do like Gwyn’s argument that everything we know of, matter included, is a model invented by our minds. And yet it seems so obvious that matter HAD to preceed mind. And yet, that itself is also an idea..of the mind!
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Amandeep Timeless: is a tree meaningless?
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Nature, there is no need for matter to exist without mind, but matter implies that sensible objects can exist unsensed, and on it’s surace, that’s a contradiction
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need a lot of words to describe precisely what we mean by ‘matter’.
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Not to the tree 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Frederick Hansome: Matter exists whether there is a mind to perceive it or not
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Amandeep Timeless: ye[
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Amandeep Timeless: *p
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: you cannot know that, though.
[2011/12/06 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, how do you know that?
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): If there is no mind to perceive it, what evidence can there be of it?
[2011/12/06 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: The tree falling in a forest can be answered Yes, by linguistic anaysis of defining the words in the question.
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t see why it is “obvious” that one thing has to preceed the other. Hmm. Let me give you a simple example. A mother shows the big round flaming ball in the sky to her child and says, “That’s the Sun”. From that moment on, the Sun exists for the child. But… did it exist before?
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And part of what you mean by matter is an object of the senses–how can that object exist unsensed?
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Amandeep Timeless: winds we fail to attribute
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Masha Allen (korendian): there is one universal constant: pepsi
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There’s apparently lots of matter out there without mind or life….but it doesn’t really matter, I don’t think
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that’s the point _:exactly_
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, only analytic truths, which can be altered as definitions are altered.
[2011/12/06 15:48]  Frederick Hansome: Because there must be matter for me to percieve and when one dies, their matter persists, ergo: matter exists without mind
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Violet, again, how do you know that?
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: When I play a videogame, I assume the room I am in exists when I am no longer in it. But iy may not. THe game may decide no to calculate it when it is empty to save processing power. Well, maybe the computer that runs the universe does not bother rendering a real room when nobody is in it!
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, but where is the justification for the first premise? Why can’t mind only perceive mental objects?
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait, Frederick: your matter, when you die, doesn’t persist for *you* 😉
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Amandeep Timeless: it waits for your discovery, but it’s not dependent on it
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: the argument seems to not be whether matter came before mind, but what it means that something exists
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Amandeep Timeless: we do not fabricate newly discovered species
[2011/12/06 15:49]  Masha Allen (korendian): when i’m drinking pepsi, my thirst is quenched in totality – in terms of the physical desire for liquids, and spiritual fufilment
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, ultimately that is the question
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps a more interesting question indeed, Ivy 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Frederick Hansome: Because, Thi, “mental objects” have no material existence
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Masha: in that instant, yes — just to get you thirsty a little later again 😉
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: what is the name of the philopsophy that says everything is conscious?
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: so basically Gwyn thinks that matter doesn’t really exists unless there is a mind to observe it 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Animism?
[2011/12/06 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not in the conventional sense, no.
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hylozoism?
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, but what you’ve stated is that the mind needs an object and the object must exist after you die–that doesn’t in itself establish matter
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that was to Ivy)
[2011/12/06 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Solipsists are in love with their arguments, so even though they perform every waking moment as if solipsism is false, they still think it describes the world.
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: not ringing bells, Violet
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Violette McMinnar: every being has a mind, even a grain of the sand in the desert, everything is alive and so has a mind, since the consciousness level differs in all that exists we perceive some as nonliving and assume they have no mind but even stones grow, slowly but they do and we can’t really say that they do not thin, if they have mind they think ;p todays science can’t prove it though
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: yes, I gather it’s not an observer effect as in quanta
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Masha, korendian–and, oh, all those who didn’t say hi to me.
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Either your mind has a different perception of what solipsism is, Art, or my mind doesn’t understand what you mean by solipsism 😉
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think matter might exist without anything to perceive it….but it doesn’t really matter, until it’s sensed
[2011/12/06 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: more like “it doesn’t matter if something is if it cannot be observed”, yes Gwyn?
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Hi RHi 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Amandeep Timeless: radon matteres even if you don;t sense it
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we only attribute importance to what we observe, yes, ivy 😉
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: But is there not a form a solipsism which merely claims we cannot know what is outside or own mind? I can go along with that.
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: no, it’s not that Extie
[2011/12/06 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Solipsism is the idea that mind creates perception, and there is no existence outside of mind.
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, essentially that is solipsism–thee rest is a prejudiced analysis of it
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No no no Art
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I do not think solipsism HAS tpo be the idea that only my mind exists.
[2011/12/06 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s idealism.
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Frederick Hansome: Matter is defined by the laws of physics/ chemistry and proven by mathematics
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: idealism is, if you wish, solipsim with multiple minds.
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Okay, I’ll refine that…matter doesn’t matter if it doesn’t interact with life :p
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but one thiing you all are missing is that all that has been said on idealism here just establishes the epistemological priority of the mind; it doesn’t establish the metaphysical priority
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Frederick: exactly! Whio defined those laws and the maths that prove them?
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: ha
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: so we can reduce the argument to
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Rhi. Right 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, yes, matter is defined by mental constructs, in other words
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly like RHi says.
[2011/12/06 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Idealism is the idea that named things only exist as concepts. That is a different idea entirely.
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: did we just discover math, or did we invent it? 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: I thought idealism was the idea that mind is fundamental and that matter is a product of the mind. IT stands opposite to materialism which says matter is fundamental and mind is made out of matter.
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Frederick Hansome: Matter is described by mental constructs but exists independently
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Amandeep Timeless: matter is whether we have laws of physics or not …..prehistoric bodies recovered suggest gravity was in effect before we had a law for it
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you’re closer to the historic defintion
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, as you wish, Art, so long as we all know what _you_mean 😉
[2011/12/06 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: That is the idea, yes, Frederick;)
[2011/12/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I traditionally use Extie’s definition of idealism vs. materialism/existentialism.
[2011/12/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: With solipsism being an extreme sort of idealism where only ONE mind exists — our own.
[2011/12/06 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, another question is whfether things of the spirit are more important than things of the body.
[2011/12/06 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: We all agree with Frederick in practice, so to pretend otherwise is just self deception of a sort.
[2011/12/06 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe they both allways existed?
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, Art, I definitely don’t agree with Frederick in *practice*.
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Freaky dualists
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Violette McMinnar: same here, I don’t agree with Fred ;p
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think idealism and materialism are both pretty useful….I don’t really want to have to pick one over the other in absolute
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Naturespaw Bestijl: I agree with violet
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: By practice I mean: empirical experience of what he described.
[2011/12/06 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: every act you perform Gwyn depends on your acceptance of rationality and manipulation of matter.
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Amandeep Timeless: additional tools
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): In practice, most people ignore these questions–only some, like the M arxists, or religious people, hold to their importance
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s totally against what I *experience*, Art.
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: I think we need to modify “I think therefore I am” to “I think therefore universe”
[2011/12/06 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller chuckles
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Seriously, Gwyn, how can you seriously think that the stars and the galaxies and rocks and all that stuff does not predate your mind, any mind, by millions and billions of years?
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ivy
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Frederick Hansome: Why not, Gwyneth: what is there ot disagree with???? <<smiles>>
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, the point of the cogito is that it is impossible to doubt without thinking (doubting) and without you doubting.
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I don’t think there’s a point where you can see which is more fundamental, anyway… long as you’re looking, you’re going to be mind–and looking implies looking *at*, so there’s an independent external world, too
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: did you read my little story about the mother telling her daughter what the Sun is?
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It was to derive a rock bottom certainty
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can’t doubt my own existenae without existing.
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Probably. I forget the moral.
[2011/12/06 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fred: perhaps the point is: there is nothing to agree with, but nothing to disagree with, either 😉
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): From there, we build up the certainites about the universe
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Amandeep Timeless: i think, therefore i think i am
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: Cartesian scum
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You don’t know what the SUn is unless someone tells you so, gives it a name, tells you a story about it.
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Anyway, I have to head out…I’ll be back if I can 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can doubt my body–after all, I may just be pixels.
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: I can understand that, but being rational is not *just* thinking logically, from all the people you should know that 🙂
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Be well, everyone
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Amandeep Timeless: cya Ataraxia
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Frederick Hansome: Gwy…then why are we here?
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Vi, take care
[2011/12/06 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, even if you have no idea what those billion of galaxies are, you still recognise yourself as a sentient being.
[2011/12/06 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fred: contact me after the meeting, I0’ll tell you 😉 and even give you a method to validate my answer on your oen hehe
[2011/12/06 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *own
[2011/12/06 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, there is where you go wrong, one doesn’t need to ‘know’ what the sun is, in order to be affected by it.
[2011/12/06 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, but you need a name for the sun to know that it is a sun 😉
[2011/12/06 15:59]  Amandeep Timeless: to talk about it yes, to be affected by it no
[2011/12/06 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Hmm…well, there was a time when everyone ‘knew’ the Sun was made of iron. But then a female astronomer looked at spectographs and said ;no wait, the sun is hydrogen’. Thing is, the scientific method has a way of steering us, awkwardly towards the truth.
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can cats watch TV? Most can’t.
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But TV exists.
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, I thought we were alal here to discuss the mind/body problem
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Then Extropia and Violet are right, both can exist.. we know the sun can exist even before the daughter was aware of it.. but to allude to it, we must firest sense it, to know of it
[2011/12/06 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: The sun exists independently of your knowing anything at all about it. That is what we must conclude unless you want to make the LEAP that perception creates the sun.
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): HI Tiger!
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): HI Sakuya!
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: you don’t need to know that it’s a sun, you might be oblivious to sun existing at all, say having a complete blur vision only being able to recognize light and lack of light – you still are affected by sun
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Masha Allen (korendian): greetings
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: hello
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The scientific method is… descriptions. Stories we tell. We get much better at telling stories and get good predictions about them.
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who created those stories? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:00]  Sakuya Izayoi (tigerschwert): hello
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well,can matter exist? IN ordinary language, matter is sensory objects–and also exists independently of the mind. But that yields a contradiction
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think I’m not being very good at describing what I mean mmmh
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Amandeep Timeless: “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi is so much better!
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, thank you, Gwyn
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Frederick Hansome: Rhi, I thought I was on topic at all points? No?
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you are!
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds spits on her hand, rubs it on her chest
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL!
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: lol
[2011/12/06 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok hmm
[2011/12/06 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: Our ‘theory of knowledge’, i. e. rational argument has created a list of best guesses, which is what science is. These are never seen by us to be anything but provisional.
[2011/12/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn takes a deep breath
[2011/12/06 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, you were, but I reduced your question to a mundane one, showing ironically what practice is
[2011/12/06 16:02]  TR Amat: Without our minds, nothing matters? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Science is like a game of 20 questions in which everuone starts off with his or her own ideas and every question must be answered honestly and be consistent with previous questions. Everyone ends up converging on the same answer.
[2011/12/06 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: hear hear Art 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, and conventionally we say that teh answer is ‘the truth’ (as we know it so far)
[2011/12/06 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The meaning of life is just the meaning of living, which is the daily practice we adhere to
[2011/12/06 16:02]  Amandeep Timeless: experience of a thing without ‘study” and experiencing something where you’ve studied the components of that experience
[2011/12/06 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): BAck to practice as a criteria, as (was in ARt?) someone said.
[2011/12/06 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: best guess doesn’t imply falsity in any way.
[2011/12/06 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller frowns at Rhi “why meaning?”
[2011/12/06 16:04]  Amandeep Timeless: a pitiful need for validation
[2011/12/06 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, let me try again. To this very day, a billion or two people survive every day without needing to know they’re on the 3rd planet orbiting a star. This doesn’t mean that we aren’t, in fact, on a planet around a star. It just means that the concept doesn’t exist for them, and, in many cases (very small children), they wouldn’t be even able to understand why we came up with such a boring story.
[2011/12/06 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, this does NOT mean that the Earth doesn’t exist, or that teh Sun is just a word.
[2011/12/06 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It does mean, however, that we have to apply our minds to give those things names,
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Amandeep Timeless: Sol Asylum
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and ‘know’ them because of that.
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Gwyn I agree, which argument does that support tho?
[2011/12/06 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well your statement virtually agrees with what I am saying.
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Is this a postmodern position, the idea that cosmology is just a story we tell about the universe?
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we start ‘knowing’ things when we give them names, talk ab out them, menasure them, make calculations, elaborate theories, put those theories in practice, elaborate predictions, and so forth,
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Frederick Hansome: We have to apply minds to give things meaning as well as names
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia: postmodern, yes, but 2600 years old 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: so far you are only giving arguments against your pov 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:05]  Amandeep Timeless: to increase our understand, we need mind, but not whether something exists
[2011/12/06 16:06]  TR Amat: “The Sun is a light Daddy hangs up so he can go to work”? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not at all, Ivy. What I’ve been defending is NOT idealism 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, yes, as it reduces cosmology to simply hermaneutics, and thus to different viewpoints, none of which is privileged.
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not materialism either.
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: TR makes an important point. We see puprose in everything. The sun is si we have light. A cloud is so we have rain.
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the mix of both: the chicken AND the egg.
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, the third way? But I have to agree with those who say that the third way is unsble.
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Naturespaw Bestijl: But what we’re saying here is that we need to interact with things to know them, yet something can exist without our knowing…
[2011/12/06 16:06]  Violette McMinnar: not to increase Amandeep, we need mind to understand, without the mind our body would not function or be even alive ;p
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I’d love to argue with those who say that 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: well, at least the fossil record answers that one. The egg came first.
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll start by having them kicking rocks…
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Violette, another point altogether–how s trongly the mind affects the body, or all bodies, for that matter
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: did we invent sun or did we discover it?
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You can remote influence, as well as influence your own body
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And then ask them to point at themselves and describe precisely which part of their bodies is their mind.
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: both 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Amandeep Timeless: is instinct mind? how do other animals survive without words for what they’re eating?
[2011/12/06 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: We’ve lost track of the argument then, which is can matter exist without mind, or can mind exist without matter….
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amandeep: mind is not words 😉
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: not at all Art 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Describing the mind, sure, requires words.
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Naturespaw Bestijl: Ah Amandeep, animals have minds too 😛
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Amandeep Timeless: or labels etc.
[2011/12/06 16:08]  TR Amat: The Sun is, if it was not our best bet is that we wouldn’t be around for very long afterwards… So…
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So most an imals are not able to describe their own minds.
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Amand, well, instinct would seem to be mental; I think it depends on whether, like Kant or Sartre, you think the mental has to have an ‘I think’ attached to it.
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Amandeep Timeless: my point precisely
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: animals have souls, I harvest them in Skyrim to fuel my weapons
[2011/12/06 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Ivy
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Animals most definitely have minds 😉
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not like ours.
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: Can you harvest ginger animals, Ivy?
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rosalyn had a VW that would refuse to run with some people, was happy with others. It had preferences.
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: *some* animals have minds 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So “inanimate” objects have mental aspects
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh. Like, Gwyn, when we see sci fi films in which a robot’s mind’s eye view sees a list of words and it chooses one and utters that phrase. But the robot mind cannot work like that becaise it would need a mind within a mind to uinderstand the woirds to begin with.
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Amandeep Timeless: but they don’t call the sun any name etc.
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: right! So, back on track….
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: (and I don’t mean just humans of course)
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, you mean sort of like how Unix machines crash helplessly when I walk by?
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (exactly, Extie)
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: C’est seul d’un machine, Rhiannon.
[2011/12/06 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: So I gather you are a dualist then Gwyn? Mind and Body are not the same thing?
[2011/12/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, I’m an anti-dualist.
[2011/12/06 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn is abstractionists 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It sounded to me, Gwyn, like you thought matter was an aspect of mind–which makes you a monist
[2011/12/06 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: I am pro-duelist actually, since they have d12 for hitpints.
[2011/12/06 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, just a Buddhist hehe
[2011/12/06 16:10]  Amandeep Timeless: i’m bio-chemicalist
[2011/12/06 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi frameset
[2011/12/06 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Alexis
[2011/12/06 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: since we are giving ourself labels
[2011/12/06 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Art, you can water is the same thing as hydrogen and oxygen atoms and you can also say it is so different it can be thought of as if it were seperate. Same goes with mind and matter.
[2011/12/06 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller puts on a wizard hat and robes
[2011/12/06 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well for all of us non dualists out there. Given: matter exists, and mind is a function of matter.
[2011/12/06 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, a nice analogy
[2011/12/06 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: IT was Descartes’ not mine:)
[2011/12/06 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Art, how do you know that mind is a function of matter? And how do you get around Berkeley’s point that “Mtter” is self contradictory?
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Where is the mind then, Art? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu feels philo-trolled by Extropia. “guys she is preparing you for next weeks presentation, and she is letting us discover that dualism sucks. Anemnese”.
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: For the record I agree with Art. Mind is what the brain does.
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Without making matter into a function of the mind, that is.
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know …— yoiu’ll say “it’s an emergent property” of certain types of matter
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu frowns at Extropia.
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mind is a mmmh
[2011/12/06 16:12]  TR Amat: Do we get anywhere with phenomenology, which looks at the perceptual interface between mind and matter?
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma switches off particules. :/
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “strange description of properties that matter sometimes has, and sometimes doesn’t”
[2011/12/06 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: mind is in the electrical connections in the brain, Gwyn.
[2011/12/06 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, well, phenomenology really doesn’t do that–it only shows how matter manifests itself to mind.
[2011/12/06 16:12]  <<UrbanizeD>> Armchair “Emanuelle’s Sisters” // Pure Mono: Restricted to owner only!
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It brackets off the question of real existence
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not really, Art. If that were so, you could plug a brain into a socket and it would work after the body dies 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu throws away this little booklet “bluff your way in to philosophy”.
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu sound like Morpheous, Art!
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Amandeep Timeless: neuro-chemical measurement suggest mind derives from the chemicals making up that brain system.
[2011/12/06 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: STraw man Gwyn
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: matter is not contradictionary, only our description of it is.
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it needs a bit more than that
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Copperheads!
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Violette McMinnar: mind is not what the brain does, mind is not the function of the brain, mind is superior to the brain, it is a subtle matter and it des not die like the brain eventually dies
[2011/12/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Amandeep has it better — “mind DERIVES from a lot of properties that the brain ‘just happens” to have”
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d agree with, “mind is not in the brain, it’s what the brain does”
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): IVy, but if we know matter through our description, that is back to the epistemological priority of mind; and then, do we need matter as a concept at all?
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind as a process
[2011/12/06 16:14]  TR Amat: Correlation does not imply causation – there does seem to be some connection between brains and minds, but…
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller opens jaw and eyes wide at Violette
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, no, it’s what does the brain. lol
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Violette McMinnar: lol
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: somebody call the police, we have a dualist here!
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, and recently we have this terrible research article proving that the brain reacts *after* we think, and not the other way round as we always believed it would)
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Sakuya Izayoi (tigerschwert): this is all very complicated
[2011/12/06 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: It has been shown that colors and even emotions can be triggered by stimulating various parts of the brain with electrical currents.
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I’m trying to refine Art’s words, I’m not defending that position at all.
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Amandeep Timeless: matter/hardware needed to support mind/software
[2011/12/06 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Duelists can not be lawful. Most are chaotic good.
[2011/12/06 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, really? Interesting research
[2011/12/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (quite so, Rhi)
[2011/12/06 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, ok.
[2011/12/06 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’ve done that. lol
[2011/12/06 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: The connection of the mind and the brain is so well establshed it is just as silly to argue with the fact gthat water is oxygen and hydrogen atoms.
[2011/12/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art — again, what SEEMS to be the mind is an aggregate of a series of correlations that we can measure externally.
[2011/12/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that you will agree to at least that: that what we call “mind” is just an observation of what the brain is doing. RIght?
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn. what seems to whom? A mind, of course
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: right.
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, and an observatiion? All experience is mental.
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neurologists like Damasio prefer to use the expression “emergent property”
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Does Art agree with your characterizations?
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like, uh, climate.
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we’ll come to that, Rhi!)
[2011/12/06 16:16]  TR Amat: There is certainly a connection between mind and brain, but, I don’t think we know exactly what it is – though we may have strong suspicions. 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just want to see if Art agrees with Damasio et al.
[2011/12/06 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: just talking about “connection” is wrong
[2011/12/06 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: it implies dualism itself
[2011/12/06 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: What am I agreeing to exactly?
[2011/12/06 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is no connection
[2011/12/06 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: mind is abstraction of the brain
[2011/12/06 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, you’re agreeing to a reductio of your system, so you might as well concede now, and save us all the trouble.
[2011/12/06 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: I like the way they give the brain regions latin names, Makes it sound scientific. YOu know like ‘hippocampus’ rather than ‘seahorse-shaped thingy’ (which is how it translates).
[2011/12/06 16:17]  TR Amat: The flow of electricity is generally connected to wires, but… No dualism there.
[2011/12/06 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: it comes from it, it’s not “connected” to it
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: that what we call mind is a series of neurological processes that arise in the brain, and that we collectively identify as such as “mind”
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma growfs
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Frederick Hansome: I agree with Dimasio, read his “Descartes Error”
[2011/12/06 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: I can agree with that.
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I prefer the ordinary language, so from now on, I’ll say “seahorse shaped thingie”
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ve used the expression “emergent property of the brain” because it’s popular with neurology and cognitive science these days
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Amandeep Timeless: a convenient categorization to assist in manipulations
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Object: Restricted to owner only!
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: I want to fread that book.
[2011/12/06 16:18]  TR Amat: Mind seems to manifest via brains, unless you are into parapsychology, and, maybe reincarnation. 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: TR: except we know of examples of flow of electricity outside of wires
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s an alternative w2ording, TR: mind as manifestation of the brain’s activity.
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: same can’t be said about mind and brain
[2011/12/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: O-kay.
[2011/12/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re making progress 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Noooooooow
[2011/12/06 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘Cochlear: Shell-like thingy.
[2011/12/06 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, well, reincrnation would have the miind manifest by brains to, and parapsychology suggests nothing about the connection between mind and matter–just makes it more tenuous than conventionally thought of
[2011/12/06 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: bye bye griefer
[2011/12/06 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2011/12/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[2011/12/06 16:19]  TR Amat: I don’t claim that existing science has a full descripton of the interrelationship between the brain and mind.
[2011/12/06 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Many mystics, like those who believe in the resurrection, would agrtee with the mind-brain identity theory
[2011/12/06 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: what? Khannea is still here
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller snickers
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: there is another part of the brain, I forget its latin name but it literally translates as ‘mysterious stuff’.
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, who calls the brain activity a “Mind”?
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What did the griefer do? I missed it
[2011/12/06 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: she ran around going ‘boobaboobabooba’
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Put into other words… how do we “Know” that brains have this amazing property, “having minds”?
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Where, exactly, is the mind “encoded”?
[2011/12/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What produces it?
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We’re not talking about the *description* of what the brain does.
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Frederick Hansome: A word we have been missing so far, and related, Rhi< is “consciousness”
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: we know it just as we know everything else – we don’t, we assume it 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have agreed with that — neurological processes.
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Amandeep Timeless: floating topic
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, yes, and it is even more messy to try to reduce or eliminate consciousness
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So … somehow, what neurological science says is…
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “we can describe the brain’s processes”
[2011/12/06 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: We ‘know’ it because we have defined it as such.
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): As consciousness exists outside of itself, which no material object can do
[2011/12/06 16:21]  TR Amat: We don’t know where memory is in the body, for example. Though, we know quite a bit about brain structures connected to memory.
[2011/12/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “we also know that somehow it is correlated with what we call ‘mind'”
[2011/12/06 16:22]  TR Amat: Our memories do seem a great deal to do with who we are…
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I put my memories in this stick, and then I stick the stick, erm, never mind.
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “by some fortunate series of happy coincidences, our brain works exactly so as to produce us the impression that it has a ‘mind'”
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: explain please, how can consciousness exist outside of itself?
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, from the “inside,” that’s true
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Asking where is the mind encodes is like asking ‘whoich building is Cambridge University? THat is just a label for how a bunch of colleges and libraries and playing fields are organised, just as ‘mind’ is a label for a bundle of perceptions that are ultimately physical processes the brain performs.
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thank you, Extie.
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I rest my case now? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:22]  Frederick Hansome: Would you not agree that consciousness, like mind, somehow emerges from the matter of brain?
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Thank Gilbert Ryle, it s his analogy.
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, don’t have to explain it, just poiint out, phenomenologically, that if consiousness is self-consciousness, it has itself as an object–and that implies it is outside itself looking at itself
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mind is just a label.
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😉
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A description of a process.
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing else.
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyone disagrees?
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: maybe it’s looking at itself from inside? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gilbert Ryle spent a couple of hundred pages proving that he didn’t think, so I’ve ignored him once I realize that hisi position boiled down to that
[2011/12/06 16:23]  TR Amat: Mind is a description of the behaviour of humans that forms a useful abstraction?
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, then the ‘itself’ is outside of it.
[2011/12/06 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are defining ‘mind’ as the processes, provisionally.
[2011/12/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Goodie.
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Frederick Hansome: Good, Gwy..Mind is the label we put on the function of the brain.
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu know, everything I say and thini is somebody else’s idea, ocassionally modified? I do not think I ever had one truly original idea.
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: you are using convetional definition of awareness to mind being self aware, which I find to be a logical abuse tbh 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Same with Skinner, who said tht he didn’t think either.
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I would be the first to disagree. I can agree on the definition. But… that’s not what I *experience*. I can *experience* a mind and know very well that I’m aware of my own mind, even if I cannot *describe* it.
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, I’m using ordinary language analysis and phenomenology, thank you very much
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So if I *describe* the mind, I can only see ‘processes’
[2011/12/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ’emergent properties’
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Behaviourist joke: ‘That was great for you. How was it for me’?
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘labels’
[2011/12/06 16:25]  TR Amat: Bad behaviourist! *smack on nose with newspaper* 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Amandeep Timeless: mental mirror
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, lol. But so apt.
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Violette McMinnar: did you experience talking to your own mind?
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But when I *experience* my own mind, it’s nothing like that at all; my mind truly exists and I’m aware of it (well, most of the time)
[2011/12/06 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, you cannot know it as the concept ‘mind’ without defining that concept first.
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, when I feel love or lust or hunger, or anything, I keep on reminding myself my “feelings” are just predispositions towards behavior. lol
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Amandeep Timeless: Merry ChriSolstRammaDiwalFestivuHannuKwanzistmas!
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Frederick Hansome: Skinners behaviourism is mostly considered outdated
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m not really feeling them at all
[2011/12/06 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: That’s where I disagree!
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All animals have minds, and most are aware of their own minds
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, but it’s the same as Ryle’s, conceptually.
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: well, using ordinary language to think about antbear, not knowing what antbear is, but knowing what ant and bear is, can produce some hilarious results 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nevertheless, they don’t have concepts for it.
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Small childs are self-aware without having a concept of being self-aware.
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: We are america and we are making sure by crushing glas bottles as well as razors and eating them. The oil price Must Go Up –
[2011/12/06 16:26]  TR Amat: There is the interesting question of how much we call ‘mind’ is a sub-conscious process, and isn’t (generally) knowable by introspection.
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are, nevertheless, self-aware.
[2011/12/06 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: You know ‘something’ but you don’t know ‘mind’ as separate from anything else without the concept of everything it is in context of.
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Frederick Hansome: I doubt that animals are self-aware.
[2011/12/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s better, Art!
[2011/12/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fred: some certainly are; others perhaps not.
[2011/12/06 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: mindless animals are not self aware 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:27]  Frederick Hansome: Which are which and how do we know?
[2011/12/06 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: A bonobo once communicated ‘I write. Give grape’. Note the use of the first-person!
[2011/12/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the ones we can talk to, Fred 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See Extie’s example.
[2011/12/06 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha
[2011/12/06 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: We can get nowhere with this line of argument if we are unwilling to accept the existence of anything outside of ‘mind’. It is just a circular argument.
[2011/12/06 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: two minutes left, Thinkers!
[2011/12/06 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: we know why Extie doesn’t reveal her real identity, after all, internet doesn’t care you are a horse 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, my dogs are self consicous.
[2011/12/06 16:28]  TR Amat: “I think, therefore I get grape”? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, oh, no! Only two mintues to sovle the mind body problem?
[2011/12/06 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: My real identity is the one that evolves online.
[2011/12/06 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, for the sake of the argument, I’m quite unwilling to accept there is nothing outside, because that’s pretty much against what I experience; I experience a fantastic universe out there, and I feel very sorry for the ones who don’t 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, flesh identity 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:29]  Frederick Hansome: Waht makes you think your dogs have self consciuosness?
[2011/12/06 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: The existence of matter all boils down to: it appears that matter exists , therefore we will accept it as a Given. THEN we can argue other things related to it.
[2011/12/06 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fred: the biggest hint is that minds are very good at figuring out where other minds are, and that’s why MOST people (I’m not saying ALL) will agree that dogs have minds and rocks don’t 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:30]  TR Amat: So, does the rock you stub your toe on have Buddha mind? 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because dogs “behave” as if they had minds.
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: Frederick: what makes you think that other people have self awareness?
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, (ironically) by their behavior; like when they show embarassment, or shame.
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: Last week Art proved the principle that I can be a pattern that exists across many minds and that I am not necessarily bound to my current primary.
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: nope 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, exactly so. The same principle–argument from analogy
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: unless she was lying.
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, that’s the principle of reincrnation
[2011/12/06 16:30]  TR Amat: We do seem to have some common agreements about matter. 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s when we start discussing that that I question how the mind can be “merely” an emergent property of a brain 😉
[2011/12/06 16:30]  TR Amat: I’m unsure we have any common agreements about mind. 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Bertrand Russell was taken aside by his family, when they realized his interest in metaphysics, and they told him: “What is mind? NO matter. What is matter? Never mind.” He said after enough repetition, it ceased to be amusing
[2011/12/06 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not a property, it’s a construct 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: No it is the principle that I am a character and that, just as literaru characters can have ghost-writers, online characters can have ghost…um…whatever.
[2011/12/06 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: we might be unable to *describe* the mind, but we all experience mind in the same way (assuming a normally healthy person, that is)
[2011/12/06 16:31]  Frederick Hansome: How on earth can you justify an animals “shame” , etc, as anything but fear of punishment????
[2011/12/06 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, which matter or mind? Either way, a construct is a mental process
[2011/12/06 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: well, both, but in this case mind
[2011/12/06 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK sum up…MIND (or matter) is more fundamental because…?
[2011/12/06 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Fred, because they wouldn’t be punished and they know it
[2011/12/06 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): IVy, I agree–mind is a mental construct. lol
[2011/12/06 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: science says so! (argument for matter)
[2011/12/06 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If mind were less important, we wouldn’t be even able to have this discussion; rocks don’t have meaningful discussions like tjis one 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:32]  TR Amat: We can describe the shape of most mater – can we describe the shape of a mind?
[2011/12/06 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, except for QM, of course
[2011/12/06 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie, on that you’re wrong. *Honest* science says that they have absolutely no clue about what a “mind” is.
[2011/12/06 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: I find the argument for being-able-to-discuss really not convincing at all 🙂
[2011/12/06 16:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, category mistake, to use Ryle’s terminology–minds aren’t physical, so they havae no shape
[2011/12/06 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK…this topic was suggested by Khannea…
[2011/12/06 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Is the Euro doomed and if so what does that mean for the rest of the world?
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