THINKERS OCT 25 2011: BALKANISED WEB

Naturespaw Bestijl at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/10/25 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: The topic today was suggested by Zo…
[2011/10/25 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: BALKANIZED WEB: The Internet offers forums and groups where those with particular interests can meet likeminded people. This can mean indivduals always share the same view, thereby reinforcing it. This effect is known as the balkanization of the Web. To what extent might this undermine propper debate not just on the Web but in RL too?
[2011/10/25 15:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: BTW, there is a halloween party here on this sim I and some friends are throwing saturday at 5:30 slt if anyone is interested
[2011/10/25 15:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: it might actually enhance “propper debate”
[2011/10/25 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: how, Ivy?
[2011/10/25 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: what is a propper debate anyway?
[2011/10/25 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: a one where people agree with each other? 🙂
[2011/10/25 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: The web has one nice feature – it follows supply and demand., The benefit is that vacuums are filled very quickly. The downside is it that half of all humans have an effective IQ under 100.
[2011/10/25 15:33]  Lem Skall: seems to be a common topic lately: http://www.salon.com/2011/10/22/is_my_facebook_page_a_liberal_echo_chamber/
[2011/10/25 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d say that by having camps where people excercise their beliefs, share common arguments with each other, is sort of like schools or discipliens of given beliefs (or belief systems)
[2011/10/25 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would call the effect bubblized, because unlike the discreet balkans, there can be an individual bubble for every single person.
[2011/10/25 15:34]  Lem Skall: I think that was always an issue, we watch the tv shows we agree with, we make friends with people who agree with us
[2011/10/25 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: If course I am ahead of you on this topic > http://blog.khanneasuntzu.com/index.php/2011/10/25/red-versus-blue-2
[2011/10/25 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: and when those disciplines clash against each other, the fact that they are all educated, in their own way, makes the actual content of the debate more dense
[2011/10/25 15:34]  Lem Skall: it’s just that we expected the internet to change things and it doesn’t
[2011/10/25 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, Lem, Confirmational bias preceeded the Web.
[2011/10/25 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: It isn’t just up to us. Major Social Networks are creating bubbles for you whether you like it or not.
[2011/10/25 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: in what way?
[2011/10/25 15:35]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, social networks can create unlimited amount of bubbles for religious people, I don’t see religions prevailing anyway 🙂
[2011/10/25 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: Google no longer searches the entire web, it prioritizes according to what the algorhythm ‘thinks’ you want.
[2011/10/25 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Part of it is just tribalistic human nature, I guess. I think it’s particularly funny how the Tea Party crowd and the Occupy crowd have litte overlap, even though their core issues are pretty similar.
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello 🙂
[2011/10/25 15:36]  CrystalShard Foo: You can fight that by searching while not being logged in, and by regulary clearing your Google cookies.
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Lem Skall: hi Gwyn
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: The web has a *massive* evolutionary pressure inherent in its very nature to produce an artificial intelligence. Of some sort.
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): hi Gwyn
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Gwyn:)
[2011/10/25 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: FAcebook does the bubble thing too
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Phedre Dassin: O.o
[2011/10/25 15:36]  Phedre Dassin: Hey CS 🙂
[2011/10/25 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anyone listening to the dune soundtrack? haha
[2011/10/25 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: that’s because tea party was supported by media, and occupy wallstreet wasn’t (since it’s anti-corporations, hence anti-media :))
[2011/10/25 15:37]  Lem Skall: how does fb do it for you? don’t you do it youself?
[2011/10/25 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: The sleeper must awaken
[2011/10/25 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well, why should the web botjher me with things and people I am not interested in?
[2011/10/25 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Tea Party supported by what media? (I mean Fox News and who else?)
[2011/10/25 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: noce Dune reference, Art! I mean Nice.
[2011/10/25 15:37]  CrystalShard Foo: I hear Facebook implemented something similiar in that it only shows you posts it figures you’d be interested in rather than all of them.
[2011/10/25 15:37]  Carl Occupy (carlicann): Fox and Koch Industries… cooped Tea Party
[2011/10/25 15:38]  ArtCrash Exonar: Facebook prioritzes the messages you get based on what you have done before, it no longer gives you all the messages of your friends.
[2011/10/25 15:38]  CrystalShard Foo: And there is no way to disable that.
[2011/10/25 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: isn’t fox news enough? I don’t have access to US tv 🙂
[2011/10/25 15:38]  Lem Skall: Zo, supported as in covered and not ignored
[2011/10/25 15:38]  Lem Skall: Art, I think I get all the messages from my fb friends, this is news to me
[2011/10/25 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: IT must assume I love Hamlet. Logged into FB this morning and every post was from him.
[2011/10/25 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: If you only have a few friends you might still get all their messages, otherwise not.
[2011/10/25 15:39]  Lem Skall: oth, I don’t have that many friiends
[2011/10/25 15:39]  Lem Skall: Hamlet posts a lot
[2011/10/25 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ack… sorry… minor kitchen crisis…. I think I may have to get a mop and a bucket!!
[2011/10/25 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt you cold nt get messages from all your friends, because there are just too many. Theu get pushed off the bottom and lost forever.
[2011/10/25 15:39]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): alorithms impleneted inside code will NEVER reflect human interests or developments
[2011/10/25 15:39]  ArtCrash Exonar: Google and Bing and Yahoo searches now try to guess what you will like, so you don’t have as many happy accidents as you used to by mistake.
[2011/10/25 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: if you don’t love hamlet, why do you have him in *friends*? 😀
[2011/10/25 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Loving someone is not a requisite for being friended.
[2011/10/25 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, not on facebook at least!
[2011/10/25 15:41]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Facebook lacks differentiation. There is just “Friend” or “not”
[2011/10/25 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: I also love the term “being friended”, it’s no longer “being friends”
[2011/10/25 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller chuckles
[2011/10/25 15:41]  ArtCrash Exonar: Where this is insidious is when you WANT to find something you don’t know about already. Your searches are polluted with things that are similar to your likes and your search word for something else. It is very annoying
[2011/10/25 15:41]  CrystalShard Foo: Extropia, unless you have like, 10 contacts. In which case Facebook is just being mean.
[2011/10/25 15:41]  Lem Skall: fb has a “not friend”? lol
[2011/10/25 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: I am more strict on FB than G+. On FB I only friend peope who A) I have heard of or B) know 20+ of my existing friends. On G+ I add anyone to contact who adds me.
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): FB’s definition of “friends” almost touches the fields formerly known for “divorcion”
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: If Facebook would be evil they’d create an “énemy” group.
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: Imagine the drama.
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh I’d so love enemy group
[2011/10/25 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Did you hear that Google + is going to stop deleting accounts? They have backed off a bit.
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): oh, you wrote “on FB I” not “FBI”
[2011/10/25 15:42]  CrystalShard Foo: Khannea, Google Plus did that.
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: X has added you to enemies
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: hehehe
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: imagine what it would do to angry birds
[2011/10/25 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: YOUR ENEMY SCORED HIGHER THAN YOU IN ANGRY BIRDS!
[2011/10/25 15:42]  CrystalShard Foo: ArtCrash, seriously? Because I promised I’d avoid using Plus until they get their heads out of the snd
[2011/10/25 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: Enemies would be a great group to have on a social network! haha
[2011/10/25 15:42]  CrystalShard Foo: *sand
[2011/10/25 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, I heard that Art. I have seen some old contacts come back.
[2011/10/25 15:43]  CrystalShard Foo: I’d love a link before I pop back in all happy
[2011/10/25 15:43]  Lem Skall: I keep my friends close and my enemies closer
[2011/10/25 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Don Corleone lives
[2011/10/25 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: Crystal, they did a big announcement with not a lot of specifics that said they were backing off their ‘real name’ policy. But they didn’t say how.
[2011/10/25 15:43]  CrystalShard Foo: Oh google. Can never really commit to anything.
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): anyone runs a diaspora pod, specialized on SL avatars?
[2011/10/25 15:44]  CrystalShard Foo: Guess that’s good enough for me then
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Hopefully on their knees grovelling an appology!
[2011/10/25 15:44]  CrystalShard Foo: Consider me back on Plus D:
[2011/10/25 15:44]  ArtCrash Exonar: that’ll be the day
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: I wanted to host a pod, but then I saw it was written in rails <_<
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: tfu
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: in Ruby
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: same stuff 😛
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: I am on Diaspora! Anyone else who is, look me up! Say ‘Hi’!
[2011/10/25 15:44]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): ther’s the future
[2011/10/25 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: The trouble with corporate leaders is that most of them are narcissists who can’t ever admit to making mistakes.
[2011/10/25 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: I think the worst example of the echo chamber effect is conspiracy theorists. They can believe some pretty crazy things as long as they can encourage and reinforce one another in those beliefs.
[2011/10/25 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: the problem with Google corporate leaders is that they don’t even use G+ 🙂
[2011/10/25 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: ok is this going off on a tangent or is it me?
[2011/10/25 15:45]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): one day when social networking turned into webservers, we can talk about those arrogant &”§%&§*! peoples again like Zuckerberg or G+
[2011/10/25 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually now that I think of it, that could apply to religion too. . .
[2011/10/25 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: ah, saved by Zo
[2011/10/25 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Back to the topic, I think that only seeing one side of debates is a horrible thing that will cause massive disruption in society.
[2011/10/25 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: it does apply to religion, though I don’t really see religion gaining on it
[2011/10/25 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Can it be a debate if you only see one side?
[2011/10/25 15:46]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): baw “back on toppic” 😀
[2011/10/25 15:46]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): yes extrop
[2011/10/25 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: you do eventually meet someone from the “other side”
[2011/10/25 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s when the debate begins
[2011/10/25 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Extie, what you will have is a lot of people certain of their opinions because they never considered any alternatives.
[2011/10/25 15:47]  Lem Skall: would it be useful for social networks and the like to make “opposite” suggestions also? “if you liked this, then may we suggest to try something completely different?”
[2011/10/25 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I like that, Lem
[2011/10/25 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would love that Idea, Lem.
[2011/10/25 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: There’s a sense of relief when the group agrees with you. “Aha, I’m not crazy after all!” you think. When the truth may be more like that you’ve just gathered together with the handful of other like-minded wing nuts.
[2011/10/25 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s how Zeitgeist started
[2011/10/25 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller chuckles
[2011/10/25 15:48]  Lem Skall: I think algorithms are still weak in finding what you like, it’s going to be even harder to find the opposite
[2011/10/25 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: *again* : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dFs9WO2B8uI
[2011/10/25 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: I know what you mean. If someone agrees with me or holds similar views, it goes some way to legitimizing my opinions. Subjectively, I mean.
[2011/10/25 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma points –> http://xkcd.com/966/
[2011/10/25 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh I so hate the label of “conspiracy theory”
[2011/10/25 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha , good one Zob
[2011/10/25 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: I am a truther nut. Seriously I am so crazy I actually 911 was an inside jawb.
[2011/10/25 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: suddenly it became impossible to even think that someone at the seat of power can do something mischevous
[2011/10/25 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: why, Ivy?
[2011/10/25 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: nope, never happens!
[2011/10/25 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s all conspiracy theory nutcracks talking
[2011/10/25 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: conspiracies might not happen, but conspiracy theories certainly do! heh
[2011/10/25 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: It was Khannea. Solmeone got inside the cockpit of ajet airliner and…
[2011/10/25 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: KHAAAN
[2011/10/25 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha
[2011/10/25 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Those jets were really advanced ufos with hidden secret powers.
[2011/10/25 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘Buried Alive, Kirk, buried alive!’
[2011/10/25 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we should be very concerned with the ‘Bubble effect’. It is a future huge problem.
[2011/10/25 15:52]  CrystalShard Foo: Oh gads Extropia I just read that in his voice
[2011/10/25 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: so conspiracy theorists aside, who else is or could be harmed?
[2011/10/25 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: but the point is, if there is a group of people, who for some reason spiral into one way of thinking, and actually provide evidence for that (better or worse), they do deserve to be at very least listened to
[2011/10/25 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: instead of being labeled with “conspiracy theory nutcracks” or any other “biased by definition” term
[2011/10/25 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh? How about ‘from hell’s heart I stab at thee!’?
[2011/10/25 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: The problem with the bubbles, is that evidence is not needed for thinking. It is all just undisputed fact.
[2011/10/25 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: and echo chamber of your personal prejudices and beliefs.
[2011/10/25 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: an
[2011/10/25 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, evidence is important. . . Most people tend to assume that if there’s hard evidence, the world will acknowledge it. The conspiracy theorits, on the other hand, assume that evidence will be suppressed and ignored.
[2011/10/25 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: Of course, they also tend to think of anything they’ve heard on the net as “evidence”. 😛
[2011/10/25 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: But Art, how do you overcome the perception that truth= whatever sits comfortably with my prejudices?
[2011/10/25 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: In short, how do I know what is true and what is not?
[2011/10/25 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Long ago I was a UFO crank — for a while. I bought paperback books about UFOs, ancient astronauts, and the Bermuda Triangle in the supermarket and believed it all. I mean, it was IN PRINT! Asserted as fact!
[2011/10/25 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: a lot of stuff you can hear on the net is truth, I relay on the net purely for my source of information. The tricks is filtering out the bullshit
[2011/10/25 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Imagine my disillusionment when I found out how much of it was just made up. It was the modern equivalent of ghost stories around the campfire.
[2011/10/25 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, we have been, at least nominally exposed to alternate information through mass media. But individual media will prevent even that from showing up.
[2011/10/25 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: The internet has become the repository of all the world’s knowledge — and all the world’s BS too.
[2011/10/25 15:58]  Lem Skall: well, thank god for relatives, you can’t choose them and you get to hear all kinds of whacky opinions from them (at least I do)
[2011/10/25 15:58]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): also the diffrence of first or second hand knowledge and peoples motive or are they making money from it, but thats a side point
[2011/10/25 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: The problem for us lies in the search engines putting us in our own bubbles, and not allowing access to the full range of information. This is something we need to stop, or at least fix in some way.
[2011/10/25 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: but at least you can do research and figure out which is which on the net, you don’t have that freedom with conventional media 🙂
[2011/10/25 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: On the UFO thing, I find it odd that searching for ‘best ufo evidence’ turns up nothing that can remotely be called ‘persuasive’. ‘Laughable’ yes. With all the cameras in the world today you would think there would be some decent footage of alien spacecraft.
[2011/10/25 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: They are invisible Extie! haha
[2011/10/25 15:59]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): yes a lot are funny to see and how they made them in some cases where they recreated the photo or video type
[2011/10/25 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: The point about search engines is interesting. When I suggested this topic I was thinking more about web forums.
[2011/10/25 16:00]  Lem Skall: aliens have adapted and don’t show up in areas of cellular coverage
[2011/10/25 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m willing to posit that the less you practice scientific principles, the more likely you are to believe in UFOs.
[2011/10/25 16:01]  CrystalShard Foo: The reason is that conclusive UFO evidence is simply not ~FUN~.
[2011/10/25 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: well, we here are some form of a (scheduled) forum, and we are also somewhat biased when it terms to our beliefs on virtual worlds
[2011/10/25 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m completely objective in my love of virtual worlds…. heh
[2011/10/25 16:02]  Carl Occupy (carlicann): We meet each other at the level of fantasy in Virtual Worlds… this is all deep delusion imho
[2011/10/25 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: btw, click the media stream here, nice spacey music to go with our discussion.
[2011/10/25 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t want to stray too far off topic, but the book that opened my eyes on UFOs was “The UFO Handbook” by Allan Hendry. It’s a classic. And although the overall theme is mostly one of debunking, Hendry did come up with a very small handful of very puzzling cases.
[2011/10/25 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: ON the forum thing, A forum I belong to has one dissenting voice, and everytime he posts anything people just reply ‘Troll! Get lost!’ and stuff, and it is obvious some of them reply wth insults not reading a word he said. And sometimes what he says is worth serious consideration.
[2011/10/25 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: say, maybe Google is right, and it would be better if we had real name tags above our avatars!
[2011/10/25 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: That is my real name abiove my head.
[2011/10/25 16:03]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): neither Gods nor Alians will come to the rescue
[2011/10/25 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: and we are just a bunch of weirdos that close themselves in an echo chamber gloryfing pseudonymousity
[2011/10/25 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: prefect or perfect? heh
[2011/10/25 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah. . . In some forums dissention is dismissed out of hand as trolling. I’ve noticed that more often recently, I wonder if that’s a trend?
[2011/10/25 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: I know which I am!
[2011/10/25 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Ivy, we are advanced travelers on the virtual road. We understand what the unwashed rabble does not! heh
[2011/10/25 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: I got accused of being a troll for publishing essays on Gwyn’s blog.
[2011/10/25 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: well, I know that, right. But what if we are wrong?
[2011/10/25 16:05]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha, that was by Prokofy!
[2011/10/25 16:05]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): who is a Troll
[2011/10/25 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: on the other hand, when it comes to trolling, I’m itching to make an experiment
[2011/10/25 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: No. Not Prok. He merely called me ‘insane’.
[2011/10/25 16:06]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2011/10/25 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: go to a christian forum and say that quantum mechanics are a proof against existence of christian god
[2011/10/25 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: what experiment is that, Ivy?
[2011/10/25 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: which it is
[2011/10/25 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: ah!
[2011/10/25 16:06]  Lem Skall: Ivy, why would I do that?
[2011/10/25 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Is it?
[2011/10/25 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: christian god sees everything
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve noticed this in comments too. . . Blog entries tend to accumulate “dittohead” comments from people who chime in agreement. And another blog someone else may present the opposite viewpoint, and still get the same kind of ditto comments.
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: if that was true, quantum mechanics wouldn’t have place, as there would always be an observer
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Lem Skall: there is no proof against the existence of god
[2011/10/25 16:07]  CrystalShard Foo: I never did get a straight answer to “Can god create a rock so heavy he won’t be able to lift”
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: You get the feeling that the bloggers are preaching to the choir, who’ve already drank the kool aid.
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: not proof against existence of god, proof against existence of *christian god*
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: There is no answer, Crystal.
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): Yes God can
[2011/10/25 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: Crystal: the answer is no
[2011/10/25 16:07]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): and God can’t
[2011/10/25 16:08]  Lem Skall: there is only the “christian god”
[2011/10/25 16:08]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): THere is an SL God
[2011/10/25 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: well, muslims would like to have a chat with you now 😀
[2011/10/25 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Philip be thy name
[2011/10/25 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I was a god once, at a party.
[2011/10/25 16:08]  Lem Skall: muslims are wrong, I can prove it
[2011/10/25 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: the point is, you can’t disprobe a god as a concept in general
[2011/10/25 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma was a God once on a MUCK, but it wasn’t all that fun. 😛
[2011/10/25 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: Just as you can’t disprove any random assertion.
[2011/10/25 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: but you can disprove any specific god who has some attributes set to it
[2011/10/25 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: pats Ivy on the back
[2011/10/25 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: such as an all-seeing god that created the universe 6000 years ago
[2011/10/25 16:09]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): and a God with no attributes?
[2011/10/25 16:10]  Lem Skall: I like to say that I have no proof that god doesn’t exist but I’ve seen enough evidence that he’s made up
[2011/10/25 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: a God with no attributes is unfathomable 🙂
[2011/10/25 16:10]  CrystalShard Foo: My personal belief is that wether there is or isnt a god is none of my business.
[2011/10/25 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: I just got an IM from someone asking me to steer this discussion back on track. So…all you people talking about god are off topic and doing it deliberately because…you are like HITLER! There, forum debate and Godwin’s Law run amock at Thinkers.
[2011/10/25 16:10]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): God created us all and needed to create those who dont believe in Her so she could experience ALL
[2011/10/25 16:10]  CrystalShard Foo: Science works. And even if there is a god, it has nothing to do with me. I can be a good person without a huge grand father with a beard giving me the evil eye from behind a cloud.
[2011/10/25 16:10]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): LOL 🙂
[2011/10/25 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: haha Extie
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo, do you want to talk about God?
[2011/10/25 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would like to remind all the God believers to ask the question “where did god come from”. Then you will be where the non belivers are already.
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s not too far from the subject though
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): God has started shaving
[2011/10/25 16:11]  CrystalShard Foo: You need to sacrifice a giant beard trimmer.
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: the point was to “troll” religious people with the argument
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Lem Skall: someone disagreed with us in IM? isn’t that related to the topic?
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): well if there is no real time and no real space then the questions is mute
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): moot
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: to see how their gavanized forum community reacts
[2011/10/25 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Someone muted a question? How horrible
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: hello Rhi!
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Lem Skall: let’s expel whoever disagreed with us in the IM to Extie
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: wether they dismiss the argumetn as trolling, or at least attempt to address it
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Extie
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): but didnt make the question dress
[2011/10/25 16:12]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Hi Rhi
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: and heyo Rhi and Gwyn!
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi lab
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Ivy
[2011/10/25 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: I trolled a steve jobs worship site a few months ago and got hammered! haha
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Ut? Why would I want to talk about God?
[2011/10/25 16:12]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Hehehe Art
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Yummy, Gwyn, Luh, Christal, Lem
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks for the tp, Ari
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: I’ve been uncircled by one guy on G+ for *not posting a tribute for Jobs*
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Arisia Vita: yw
[2011/10/25 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I am naming no names, becaise he spells it using strange latters not on my primary’s keyboard.
[2011/10/25 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: *Letters
[2011/10/25 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha Ivy, too much!
[2011/10/25 16:13]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): God doesnt care if you talk about him for he is too busy helping players make field goals
[2011/10/25 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Zoe
[2011/10/25 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: God is a she, btw….
[2011/10/25 16:13]  CrystalShard Foo: God is an It. Unless we expect it to breed.
[2011/10/25 16:13]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): Yes after her sex change
[2011/10/25 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: I care that you talk about God, because it is irrelevant to the actual debate.
[2011/10/25 16:13]  Yuriko Mays: woooooo!
[2011/10/25 16:13]  CrystalShard Foo: Mewoooo.
[2011/10/25 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: I wonder why people thing God has genitals?
[2011/10/25 16:13]  Ivy Sunkiller: having sex with god, now that would be something
[2011/10/25 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: think
[2011/10/25 16:14]  CrystalShard Foo: Art, because, because. There.
[2011/10/25 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: aha!
[2011/10/25 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Religion is partly created by this social reinforcement effect, but it’s also more deeply seated. . . because it’s indoctrinated into people systematically from childhood. So that’s in a different category really.
[2011/10/25 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: You go Yuriko!
[2011/10/25 16:14]  CrystalShard Foo: Re: bubbles
[2011/10/25 16:14]  CrystalShard Foo: Google is a prime example.
[2011/10/25 16:14]  Yuriko Mays: m…
[2011/10/25 16:14]  CrystalShard Foo: Does anyone remember Google Buzz? Or Google Wave?
[2011/10/25 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi!
[2011/10/25 16:14]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i have to see when you rez dc
[2011/10/25 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller hums “umck umck umck umck”
[2011/10/25 16:14]  Yuriko Mays: 😦
[2011/10/25 16:14]  Yuriko Mays: ok
[2011/10/25 16:14]  Yuriko Mays: -bye
[2011/10/25 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: I remember buzz and wave!
[2011/10/25 16:15]  Yuriko Mays: 😦
[2011/10/25 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: I think Google buzz is still going. Who remembers ‘Lively’?
[2011/10/25 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So I see we’re resisting balkanization by putting God into everything
[2011/10/25 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: You can always tell a griefer by their Linden clothing…. heh
[2011/10/25 16:15]  CrystalShard Foo: Aha I remember Lively. But I do have a point:
[2011/10/25 16:15]  CrystalShard Foo: In both cases, Google Buzz and Google Wave were a wild success – inside Google. They did not experiment with it outside the company. So when they released both of them and saw either rage or lukewarm reaction from the public… they were -stunned-.
[2011/10/25 16:15]  CrystalShard Foo: They did not understand why people thought Buzz was “intrusive”.
[2011/10/25 16:15]  Spaul Crazyboi: q paso?
[2011/10/25 16:15]  CrystalShard Foo: Or why wave was “Lacking”
[2011/10/25 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Really?
[2011/10/25 16:16]  CrystalShard Foo: Really.
[2011/10/25 16:16]  CrystalShard Foo: Infact
[2011/10/25 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Invasion!
[2011/10/25 16:16]  CrystalShard Foo: After the Buzz fiasco?
[2011/10/25 16:16]  CrystalShard Foo: One of the engineers posted a confession where he realized that “privacy matters to people far more than we thought”
[2011/10/25 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma doesn’t remember ever hearing about Google Buzz.
[2011/10/25 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: the problem with Wave at least was – it really seemed like a good idea
[2011/10/25 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Kill ’em, Art! Use your Power of Banning!
[2011/10/25 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: really really brilliant on paper
[2011/10/25 16:16]  CrystalShard Foo: It’s basic stuff like “people CARE about privacy?!” that you don’t see in a bubble
[2011/10/25 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Peer talked me into trying Wave, but I found it awfully complicated and confusing.
[2011/10/25 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: you have those powers too Extie, if you put on the group tag!
[2011/10/25 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: They got bored fast
[2011/10/25 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: but, as Doug Crockford has put it – the the question with technologies is not “is it good enough?” but “will it be popular enough?”
[2011/10/25 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: I do! I booted someone two weeks ago. But you are the big boss of this sim, so when you are here, you get final say.
[2011/10/25 16:17]  CrystalShard Foo: Another fun fact: Remember the 90’s when everyone hated Microsoft?
[2011/10/25 16:17]  CrystalShard Foo: Did you know MIcrosoft didn’t realize people hated it?
[2011/10/25 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2011/10/25 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: I still hate Microsoft! 😀
[2011/10/25 16:17]  CrystalShard Foo: Ooh old school 😀
[2011/10/25 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: the powah!
[2011/10/25 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: My best friend was Clippy.
[2011/10/25 16:18]  CrystalShard Foo: but yea, programmers within Microsoft were sure people LOVED WIndows Millenium.
[2011/10/25 16:18]  CrystalShard Foo: Or that Clippy was a -wonderful- idea.
[2011/10/25 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art is the boss of the sim?
[2011/10/25 16:18]  CrystalShard Foo: Big companies have a bubble effect. They get detached from reality. And this can be deadly.
[2011/10/25 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): People hate microsoft?
[2011/10/25 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: thankfully, now we have the internet and can while on Microsoft all day long 😀
[2011/10/25 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *I’m so confused*!!
[2011/10/25 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Rhi. She owns it.
[2011/10/25 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: whine*
[2011/10/25 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: Or the programmers at Apple are POSITIVE that Flash is ‘not elegant’.
[2011/10/25 16:18]  CrystalShard Foo: Ahahaha yes
[2011/10/25 16:18]  CrystalShard Foo: That’s a good one art
[2011/10/25 16:19]  Ivy Sunkiller: Art: it’s not elegant, it’s a plugin 🙂
[2011/10/25 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: (Those guys over by the sculptures look like they are having fun)
[2011/10/25 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art is a she??? Argh!!! She looks gray to me.
[2011/10/25 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Just so they concentrate on killing each other and not us….
[2011/10/25 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, sometimes you have to push against the conventional wisdom to achieve any progress. Apple have done that from time to time. Often successfully, but not always.
[2011/10/25 16:19]  CrystalShard Foo: Flash is not elegent from a pure HTML perspective
[2011/10/25 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Microsoft and Apple? Or the balkans?
[2011/10/25 16:20]  CrystalShard Foo: But it’s elegent as a platform
[2011/10/25 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’m an HTML5 developer, so it’s defnitely not elegant from my perspective 😀
[2011/10/25 16:20]  CrystalShard Foo: :3
[2011/10/25 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: The Lytro camera is another example. It was announed this last week to a lot of hype, but most of the blog comments from photographers have been negative.
[2011/10/25 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: nice meow
[2011/10/25 16:21]  CrystalShard Foo: 😀
[2011/10/25 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah, IR Cute Kitten should be overdubbed in that meow.
[2011/10/25 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m enjoying the dune music on the stream
[2011/10/25 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: With occasional whispering about dune stuff
[2011/10/25 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, it’s not aimed at photographers. It’s aimed at ordinary people who take simple snapshots. But the artsy photographers have a hard time getting that viewpoint.
[2011/10/25 16:21]  CrystalShard Foo: CrystalShard Foo enables stream
[2011/10/25 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Calla !
[2011/10/25 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Boo I cannot hear it
[2011/10/25 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: they most recently told us about ‘the water of life’
[2011/10/25 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, it is running now
[2011/10/25 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: So do we agree that Bubblization or Balkanization is a bad thing? Or at least a bad thing when forced upon us by default?
[2011/10/25 16:23]  CrystalShard Foo: Also
[2011/10/25 16:23]  CrystalShard Foo: Didn’t want to bring this up but
[2011/10/25 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I believe it can be.
[2011/10/25 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): How is it forced on us by default?
[2011/10/25 16:23]  CrystalShard Foo: The Republican party in the USA is being pretty bubbled up
[2011/10/25 16:23]  CrystalShard Foo: To a point where there is a “party line” and anyone who disagrees with it gets ousted or socially punished
[2011/10/25 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: I disagree, so we can’t agree!
[2011/10/25 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[2011/10/25 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: Google forces their bubblized searches on us by default.
[2011/10/25 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, sur e, if you use Google exclusively
[2011/10/25 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: So does Bing and Yahoo
[2011/10/25 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: I think it’s a bad thing if it gets out of control. On the other hand. . . Without some of these “bubble” communities, some new ideas and movements would never be able to incubate and gain traction, and we’d stagnate.
[2011/10/25 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I agree, Zoe; it’s like private spheres; you can still communicate with the wider community
[2011/10/25 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: indeed
[2011/10/25 16:25]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): on google, at least you can hop bubbles/countries by utilizing proxies
[2011/10/25 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And don’t ask me ewha t that ? is doing
[2011/10/25 16:25]  CrystalShard Foo: Like everything in life, it’s all about ballance.
[2011/10/25 16:25]  CrystalShard Foo: And moderation
[2011/10/25 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m all for netwoking within groups of interest. BUT it must be by one’s own choice.
[2011/10/25 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, and ‘balkanization’ implies a lack of balance, strife, conflict between petty st at es
[2011/10/25 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There’s s till a “global” community
[2011/10/25 16:25]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): it’S an impossibility .. this “everyone everywhere”. Local culture matters
[2011/10/25 16:26]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): at least for everyday life
[2011/10/25 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: some conflict is good
[2011/10/25 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: non-violent one that is, internet conflict
[2011/10/25 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, true; without some conflict, there would be no progress
[2011/10/25 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: ideas and opinions clashing together can produce something good
[2011/10/25 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: a lot of tears and drama on the way too of course 😉
[2011/10/25 16:27]  Ivy Sunkiller: it’s never black and white
[2011/10/25 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: The giant internet media companies are trying their hardest to define us as fixed entities. They think this will get us to buy more things. All it does is get us to buy the same things over and over.
[2011/10/25 16:27]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): remember also it’s in some countries and blocked in others showing a bubble also http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/occupy-blocked-in-china-j_n_1028863.html?ir=World
[2011/10/25 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Sometimes, the person I admire the most at the yearly Singularity Summit is the token skeptic like Bill McKibben who stands up and tells us ‘what you lot believe is wrong/dangerous’. Takes some nerve to make a speech that everyone is against:)
[2011/10/25 16:27]  ArtCrash Exonar: shai hulud
[2011/10/25 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘how can this be? He IS the Kiwdatz Haderach!’
[2011/10/25 16:28]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh that’s the kind of thing I like to do Extie. 😀
[2011/10/25 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: ArtCrash Exonar faints
[2011/10/25 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m making a new T shirt “Fight The Bubble”
[2011/10/25 16:29]  CrystalShard Foo: But I LOVE bubbles!
[2011/10/25 16:29]  CrystalShard Foo: Well
[2011/10/25 16:29]  CrystalShard Foo: Soap bubble
[2011/10/25 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu know I never read all of the Dune series, because I like the first book and keep reading just it?
[2011/10/25 16:29]  Ivy Sunkiller: fight the bubble fighters!
[2011/10/25 16:29]  Clear cold water: whispers: Water is life, water is our bond, Laborious Aftermath.   Blessed be Shai Halud!
[2011/10/25 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: haha
[2011/10/25 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: oo one minute left! Closing thoughts?
[2011/10/25 16:29]  CrystalShard Foo: Fight the fighters who fight against bubbles!
[2011/10/25 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘blessed is the maker! May his passing cleanse the world!
[2011/10/25 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Diversity good; balkaniz ation bad?
[2011/10/25 16:30]  Lem Skall: I’ll repeat what I said at the beginning, these bubbles are not new
[2011/10/25 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That would be a good closing thought
[2011/10/25 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Or not.
[2011/10/25 16:30]  CrystalShard Foo: Na I’m with Rhia
[2011/10/25 16:30]  CrystalShard Foo: Also, two legs good
[2011/10/25 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: closing thoughts: jesus hates us all we and we are going to hell
[2011/10/25 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, four legs good; two legs, better. 🙂
[2011/10/25 16:30]  CrystalShard Foo: That’s alright. I’m Jewish.
[2011/10/25 16:31]  Lem Skall: then jesus is going to hell and we go to heaven’
[2011/10/25 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” — Margaret Mead
[2011/10/25 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up! Clocks go changing this sunday so there is no Thinkers next week. BUT! We shall be back soon.
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