Cleopatra Xigalia at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: OK well history is passing us by as we speak so I think we should get started. Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/10/11 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: time is an illusion anyway!
[2011/10/11 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the topic is……
[2011/10/11 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins
[2011/10/11 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: POSTMODERNISM AND HISTORY: Is there such a thing as a definitive history, or is history created by the stories we tell about the past and are there innumerable different stories to tell about the same events, as postmodernism claims there is?
[2011/10/11 15:35]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Is there in truth no beauty….
[2011/10/11 15:35]  Khannea Suntzu: I attended a conference by a most amazing gentleman, a swiss. He made a point that we in any moment of time do not understand the present AT ALL. The time is only understood 1-3 decades in retrospection and the past is largely a construct of convenience. His views seem to support your thesis.
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: hello violet
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): In part, aren’t you just asking if there is an external reality that exists independent of consensus?
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: All history is a summary, an outline, a sketch. There’s no way you can capture the complex myriad of events and interactions that actually took place. That means historians must be editors, and editing always has some degree of subjectivity.
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Tara
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi everyone 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Violet!
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hah Tara.
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh I recall that vid Khani, the man was really bright
[2011/10/11 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is this little experiment, if you bear with me for a moment…
[2011/10/11 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: though I wouldn’t say we need 1-3 decades anymore, exponential progress is working here as well 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suppose that two historians are seeing an event unfold in front of their eyes.
[2011/10/11 15:37]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): several decades are needed to get disclosured documents published. for a precise history, those insights are needed
[2011/10/11 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One of them hates the colour red, the other doesn’t mind.
[2011/10/11 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Hardy Schoerr
[2011/10/11 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now both write about how a politician, dressed in a red sweater, addresses the population.
[2011/10/11 15:37]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): naw not exponential progress, but leaking culture surely speeds up the process. cable files an stuff
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Obviously, both will write different accounts.
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: which one is correct?
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: After the event I had a long discussion with him, and he is a sinister Kurzweilianist.
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: both are 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: assuming they don’t lie
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right!
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or none.
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: A red sweater? He isnot long for this earth!
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See? hehe
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Indeed, Extropia!
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: (Star Trek joke)
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Some rock will eat him, at a minimum.
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: besides, wearing a red sweater is such a giveaway for a communistic pig
[2011/10/11 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Ivy!
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: seee… excellent examples indeed
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Rhi!
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: so each see a reality changed by their own perception
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Evening, Rhiannon!
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Silvermane Trefusis: yes… humans think too much of themselves
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: WELCOME, RHI!
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi tara!
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Gwynyth
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: No Ivy. It gets worse, sicne we as humans are lagging conceptually to understand ever more intricate abstractions, and ever better means to hide events and developments, and ur genetic evolutionary algrothms are ever more severely outdated. Hardy argued GTFO of management, we need AI ASAP
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi ARisia!
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: here comes the space Rhiannon who has set her gravity sliders a bit too far to the right
[2011/10/11 15:39]  Conover’s Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[2011/10/11 15:40]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Rhi
[2011/10/11 15:40]  Ivy Sunkiller: hey Lem
[2011/10/11 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: woggle woggle woggle bluerg I am seasick
[2011/10/11 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Well one of the things postmodernism says is that some aspects of reality have a complexity we cannot understand, so all we can do is touch the surface details. BUt that is not to say what we cannot speak of does not exist.
[2011/10/11 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Vi!
[2011/10/11 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So in that simple example it shows that historians, even if they witness the exact event unfolding, will most definitely write different things about it…this gets just more confusing if they haven’t been eyewitnesses of course.
[2011/10/11 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Postmodernism says that the dualities of modern life are to be dissolved and we are to deconstruct any meaning
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Ok – WTF does “deconstruct” mean, anyway?
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But what is the “reality” in my simple scneario? 🙂 Star Trek fans, communists, and anti-communists will describe the politician differently. It’s the same politician, but all accounts will be different.
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Silvermane Trefusis: ha
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Historians slug it out and fight to come to a consensus. But it’s mostly a construct. Funny is understanding of history, and the lying about it (reconstructionism) is a source of considerable anger.
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tara, it means to bring out contradictory meanings to a belief or set of statements
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Sure the little details will vaery but broadly speaking there is only one history. If I say SL was dreamed up by Extropia DaSilva that i not history, is it?
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Uh-HUH….
[2011/10/11 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: deconstruct = take a document or artistic work and prove that it doesn’t mean anything like what it says 😛
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What do you mean, “one history”?
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Zobeid
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Right. I knew there was a reason I stayed out of the English Lit major.
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So what is the topic?
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean — is there a minimum set of facts that everybody can agree on? 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: or to show how it is constructed and why, doesn’t really have to do anything with the actual meaning
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Tess!
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: is history subjective or is there any intrinsic reality in it? 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Is it possible to have two different histories that result in identical present states?
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: The past happened in only one way, Gwn. Yes we may be confused as to what happened but objectively history was one event.
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Tess Aristocrat: hello : )
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: Obhectivsm in historical discousre and narrative. I.e. “this is true because, dammit”
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, I would say that history does have an objective foundation, in spite of our dependence on historical documents
[2011/10/11 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I think deconstructionism is a sort of contagious mental disease. A memetic infection.
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Silvermane Trefusis: Well, Rhi, we no longer know
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So define what that event was —… unambiguiously
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zobeid, lol; well, it does deconstruct itself, if that helps
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: That seems like poetic justice to me.
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: the burden of the proof lays on you 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Hum….
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, they’ve done some forensic analyses of key historical events–like Adams’ defense of the British soldiers in the Boston massacre is totally backed up by modern forensics
[2011/10/11 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, if there is an *objective history*, then surely there can be founmd facts that everybody can agree upon.
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: It’s the same issue about”why is Extropia talking so different one week to the next?” … it is alkmost as if there are two Extropia’s. Is that ‘deconstructing Extropia?”
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Zo I think the real purpose of postmodernism was to construcvt a language that cannot be refuted, principally because nobody who is outside the postmodern circle understands a word of it:)
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, not me. You must be confusing me with my mother.
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Silvermane Trefusis: Don’t let her get away with that pronouncement
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. But then why do people write differently about aspects of Adam Smith?
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, lol
[2011/10/11 15:44]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: CLEOPATRA Xigalia waves at gwyennie
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: it’s a GOOD question!
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I personally tend towards the external reality idea, so … I would naturally say there was a specific “true” history, but our historical presentations and documentation of it is at best an approximation.
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Cleo!()
[2011/10/11 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, because different aspects interet them, but interestingly enough, there can be agreement on a lot of factual issues.
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: Extropia DaSilva just is anybody who can impersonae her convincingly in front of you lot.
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara — let’s do a simple exercise, shall we? We will all write an article about this event we’re attending now.
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: But as I mentioned a while back, historians are expected to adhere to some standards. They can interpret history, but they at least have to base their interpretation on original sources.
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Take the late 19th century, with the rise of monopolies, everyone agrees that they rose and that the govbernmen was involved–then there are shifts depending on political agendas
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Yes, Gwyneth?
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And let’s see if we can all agree on all details 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: And somebody else can look at those sources and question the interpretation, and propose a different one.
[2011/10/11 15:45]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Does it matter if we do or not, Gwyneth?
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt the broad outline should show agreement, Gwyn.
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It does!
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How broad is broad?
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): If the rock falls on you, does it matter whether you believe in it or not?
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “there was an amount of people in the sim”
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “some wrote, some listened”
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “this was held in Second Life”
[2011/10/11 15:46]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: certain things are factual, some of them are subjective depending on the point of viewof the person there
[2011/10/11 15:46]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: how many chairs, or how they feel?
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, the topic was ‘postmodernism and history’. Not ‘can we turn chickens into dinosaurs’.
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I claim that *everything* is subjective.
[2011/10/11 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: I noticed a nice example of that a few years back. A historian published a book arguing that firearms ownership had never been common in the USA prior to the 20th century.
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The best we can do is to agree — afterwards — on the facts.
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): So you’re claiming there is no objective reality, Gwyneth?
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: I consider governments and monopolies in the 19th century as inconsequential epiphenomena., These were accidents of mechanization,resource and mineral logistics and engineering shockwaves resoinating in society.
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: triangle is not subjective!
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zobeid, yes, and someone went and checked all his sources, and found that he made them up
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. “did Gwyn have brown or red hair?” We all have different ideas about colours, but, for the sake of the future generations, we’ll agree it’s red hair.
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: He made a big splash at first. . . But then some others went back to analyze his sources, found his errors and unfounded assumptions, and basically tore his argument apart.
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Aye, Ivy – and window pane is funnier than 2×4!
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So that shows that history is not subjective, as it is subject to verification
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara: more than “claim” lol — but that’s for another day
[2011/10/11 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh good, Rhi remembers this too. 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: objective history would be just boring
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey sorry the landmark did not work for you.
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: and not very practical
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zobeid, it was a classic case of how historians investigate claims the other makes.
[2011/10/11 15:48]  baconsandbits: It’s okay.
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: But again, editing is always necessary. Did anybody here see Ken Burn’s documentary series, “The Civil War”?
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: that just shows that history is *science* (or can be, with the appropriate method) and that “writing history” is a valid method of knowledge acquisition; it doesn’t say that tehre are “objective facts”
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Now, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a subjective dimension there
[2011/10/11 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How can that be, if you all say “we can AGREE on some facts”?
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Are they FACTS — or just things that we need to AGREE with?
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *on
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, ok, I can accept that, i suppose; but there are facts that everyone agrees to, and that is the basis of the interprtation.
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: That series was epic in every sense of the word. I personally consider it America’s answer to The Iliad. And it was 11 hours long!
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right!
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “everybody agrees on”
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *to
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, this is what I mean–that leads to general skepticsim about science
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s my point. We “define” objectivity as being what we all agree upon.
[2011/10/11 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “subjectivity” is by contrast what we cannot ALL agree upon.
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, that still is a blow to deconstructionism
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn reminds of me of 1984. the past exists only in records and human memory. We conttol both, so we control the past.
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: But Burns had to leave out a lot. He barely even mentioned the campaigns that took place in the American West. He was trying to cram four very eventful years into 11 hours. You just can’t do it. You have to summarise, and you have to pick and choose what goes in.
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeppers.
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zobeid, he made up his sources too.
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The past doesn’t exist. It is as real as the dream I had last night: I only have memories about both
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: in other words, things can be objective only in limited groups 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, the trouble with that is tht the past is well, right now, in actuallity
[2011/10/11 15:50]  baconsandbits: That’s not entirely true Gwyneth
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, I tag memories of my dreams as “fake” and memories of my past as “real”, but they’re just that… memories
[2011/10/11 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): brb
[2011/10/11 15:51]  Tess Aristocrat: There is something to be said for nondualism, just as there is something to be said for simple labeling as far as communication.
[2011/10/11 15:51]  baconsandbits: Dates are as acurate as they get
[2011/10/11 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: That makes sense Zo. But, beyond our falibility there was an actual past that actually happened only one way. Or..does the past really not exist at all?
[2011/10/11 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: this is known as “conventional reality”: reality is what exists because everybody agrees that it exists.
[2011/10/11 15:51]  baconsandbits: It’s the events that happen on these dates that are subjective
[2011/10/11 15:51]  Tess Aristocrat: bottom line, everything in moderation
[2011/10/11 15:51]  baconsandbits: to the author
[2011/10/11 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Einstein says the past is just as real as the present and future. It’s all part of the same continuum, from a physics standpoint.
[2011/10/11 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depedns on how far you wish to go with that label “exists”, Extropia
[2011/10/11 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: and if so, who just said what I said? did she not really exist?
[2011/10/11 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The person who said that doesn’t exist any more 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Interesting. So that’s basicly when the extra nice Extropia is basicly played by Gwynneth, like as an experimental. observer prejudice, and the extra scientificly competeent is actually played by Serendipity. Yanno overcompensatory.
[2011/10/11 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we have memories of her.
[2011/10/11 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Khannea
[2011/10/11 15:52]  baconsandbits: In order to have memories of her.
[2011/10/11 15:52]  baconsandbits: she has to exist
[2011/10/11 15:52]  baconsandbits: >_>
[2011/10/11 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I would be a lot smarter if I had both Seren and Gwyn operating my avvie.
[2011/10/11 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why? I have memories of my dream last night, and it didn’t exist.
[2011/10/11 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pft Extie —… hartdly!
[2011/10/11 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *hardly
[2011/10/11 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: the dream did exist though?:)
[2011/10/11 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Would!
[2011/10/11 15:53]  baconsandbits: Just because its a dream doesnt mean it didnt exist
[2011/10/11 15:53]  baconsandbits: The chemical reactions in your head
[2011/10/11 15:53]  baconsandbits: was as real
[2011/10/11 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And did the people in my dream exist?
[2011/10/11 15:53]  baconsandbits: as the hair on my head
[2011/10/11 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: they did exist in your dream 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:53]  baconsandbits: ohhh that rhymed
[2011/10/11 15:53]  baconsandbits: teeheee
[2011/10/11 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: A dream is real while we expeience it. Can we say more of life?
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Tess Aristocrat: Got another thing to go to.. take care all.. ㋡
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Goodie. So how do I know if I’m not dreamin g *now*?
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Extie!
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, we can —
[2011/10/11 15:54]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: how do we know ?
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: when we’re awake, our “dream” can be shared
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: That’s so tricky. The individual muist be concluded to be a deceptive state. I can not be sure that I am rational, no much confidence I have. Basicly we can only conclude rationality as a result of *elaborate* debate and study. “To get to the gist of it”.
[2011/10/11 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we can agree on many of its “facts”
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not on all 😉
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Enough of them, however, to be able to describe pretty much the same experience.
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And to define the shared experience as “reality”
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But uh…
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s just a convention.
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As you *all* know,
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: people who have been in SL for few hours
[2011/10/11 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: will experience SL as “fake”, “not real”
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but WE don’t
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes Gwyn, even though there werea lot of Aztecs, they were still dead wrong and bloody stupid.
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we see it as a shared experience
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Al Taurion: hello everyone
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and atttribute reality to it
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh my
[2011/10/11 15:56]  baconsandbits: I wouldn’t go so far as to call the Aztecs stupid.
[2011/10/11 15:56]  baconsandbits: >_>
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Right, Gwyn like ‘well one guy says it is this…the other that..the other, something else…but put together it looks like they were talking about an elephant’.
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: He is understated.
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: It is as if history is a lens coming into focus, in the future. *calculates* about 2042.
[2011/10/11 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, bacon makes my point — in such a small group, we cannot all agree that all Aztecs were stupid 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: ah the block button
[2011/10/11 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: the God of SL!
[2011/10/11 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what is “reality”? Were they stupid? Or are we just seeing them as stupid based on our own perceptions?
[2011/10/11 15:57]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, the trouble with saying that there are “just memories,” and no past, is that we have to revise the whole phenomenology of living, and then time becomes an illusion, but one we still have to confront
[2011/10/11 15:57]  Al Taurion: “LALALALALAALALALALALALALALA”
[2011/10/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The alternative, Rhi, is dealing with the paradox — there is a reality, but none of us experiences it in the same way 😉
[2011/10/11 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: not stupid Gwyn, just ignorant 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:58]  baconsandbits: That is so rene descartes
[2011/10/11 15:58]  baconsandbits: >_>
[2011/10/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very amusing, Al, here’s an Oscar for you for Most Entertaining Comediant in SL since 2003
[2011/10/11 15:58]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Why is that a paradox, Gwyneth?
[2011/10/11 15:58]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: good way to say it Gwyen
[2011/10/11 15:58]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, why is tht a contradiction?
[2011/10/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because the definition of “reality” implies that it’s something intrinsically existant, and, as such, should be experienced in the same way.
[2011/10/11 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, the difinition itself is flawed 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Ahh, the joys of “DERENDER”
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I prefer “conventional reality” — reality as agreed upon
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Hummmm…
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. by convention
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: so, we need a new defintion for something we all share but is subjective to us all!
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Everyone give him a few hundred freebies
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ivy: Yes!
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): But we experience reality from different places, so we see different selections of it.
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A ban would be kinder 😉
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: subreality!
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara: yes: from the polace of our minds 🙂
[2011/10/11 15:59]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I just derendered him.
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rats, I can’t under Singularity
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Second Life: Avatar ejected.
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Singularity doesn’t have derender?
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Huh…
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Oh, well.
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Woot! Not every dayIO get to use my eject button!
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: See? we now consenually annihilated a bit of con sensual reality
[2011/10/11 16:00]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): well it does have Mute, and you can [x] Show Muted text to still read their chat .. just removes the visuals
[2011/10/11 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: feels good to excercise the POWER?
[2011/10/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Extie!
[2011/10/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But excellent point, Khannea 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tara, it might, if the person is unmuted
[2011/10/11 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I did not ban him, though. So he can come back and say sorry and kiss my pretty feet.
[2011/10/11 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That sounds reasonable enough 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:02]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: freeeze is good too
[2011/10/11 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: anyway…where wer we?
[2011/10/11 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Anyway, the problem of historical knowledge is on a par with the problem of scientific knowledge
[2011/10/11 16:02]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: we dont know !
[2011/10/11 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: it just occured to me how unreasonable “reasonable enough” is 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This gives us an excellent example of writing history… a friend of Al Taurion will write that he was “unjustly banned”, while the rest of us would say “he was just a visual spammer” 😉
[2011/10/11 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And we do have ways to agree on observations and theoretical statement
[2011/10/11 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yes, except for maths, you’re right
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, but we will all agree that he was visually interfering with the discussion
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’d just have different evaluations
[2011/10/11 16:03]  CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i am way cammed out so not for me.
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, and I have nothing against having ways to agree with observations/events, btw
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Hum… Those would be opinions, however, and not facts.
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, it would scare me if we couldn’t even agree 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): well in my history that was just … nothing. kinda like the people removed from pictures by the government
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And even if we substitute “conventional reality” for “reality,” that puts a stake through the heart of deconstruction
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): He was ejected, is a fact.
[2011/10/11 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Well Gwyn in this instance there is my opinion, and there is the wrong opinion.
[2011/10/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara, as you start to see, words like “facts” and “reality” have little weight 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: there is my wrong opinion too 😉
[2011/10/11 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: I have a request to you all. I’d a favor. Can you write thre organiozations and ask them whether they can hold events in Second Life? – HumanityPluys, the IEET and Terasem Foundation. Just send therm an email, and ask them, “hey guys can you hold events in Second Life” ?
[2011/10/11 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: That falls under the blamket term ‘the wrong opinion’.
[2011/10/11 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara: yes, because Extie said so, and we trust her; but someone who doesn’t trust Extie might say that he just disconnected on hiw own will.
[2011/10/11 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: but you could review the server code or whatever and see that, at time blah blah Extropia did push the eject button.
[2011/10/11 16:05]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That’s where rules come in–if there is a rule–do not interfere with the discussion, and someone, through visual effects does, then applying the rule can be said to be “objective.”
[2011/10/11 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I’d take Rhi’s comment from earlier… like in other fields of science, history is not different: “opinions” become “thesis” which have to be “agreed upon”; based on the relevance of “evidence” supporting the original thesis.
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ONe of course could challenge the rule
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, that reminds me of something. . . .
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Objective in the sense that we need to agree on the rules first, yes
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: what, zo?
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): BBIAM…
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, but there is a methodology for sorting out “facts” in history-documents, forensics, hermaneutics
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (btw, postmodernism is not saying anything new)´
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): All forms part of the “consensus.”
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing wrong with that either, Rhi!
[2011/10/11 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: On the MUCK where I’m a an admin (i.e. “wizard”), we keep full command logs. This is something I can configure. . . So we record, by choice, everything that everybody says or does in that environment.
[2011/10/11 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: how much of anything ‘postmodern’ has anyone here read?
[2011/10/11 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: This is something that I was against. I wanted to turn off logging. But the other wizards always said they wanted to keep it on.
[2011/10/11 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It still doesn’t say that “reality of what happened IS what the facts say” — just that “this set of facts best describes the reality as agreed upon by most”
[2011/10/11 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zobeid, it’s a good check on peopole’s memorie–for example, a log here would help decide if what’s his face was unfairly treated.
[2011/10/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (or,.ideally, agreed upon by *all*)
[2011/10/11 16:08]  baconsandbits: So reality did happen but the reality in our head is the one fabricated?
[2011/10/11 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: Of course.
[2011/10/11 16:08]  baconsandbits: So their is a reality but one that simply cannot exist in our heads
[2011/10/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, bacon — I’m sure that the reality in your head is fabricated.
[2011/10/11 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: The logs are *rarely* useful, I hardly ever look at them. And I thought they represented a liability. What if there’s a dispute and we’re ordered to cough up those records? 😛
[2011/10/11 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d challenge anyone to prove that there is a reality OUTSIDE the head, but that’s another story.
[2011/10/11 16:08]  baconsandbits: I knew that from the beginning when i started take meds
[2011/10/11 16:08]  Khannea Suntzu: And we are so dumb, contextually, we CAN’T even see just how flimsy our sensorium is.
[2011/10/11 16:08]  baconsandbits: thank you very much
[2011/10/11 16:08]  baconsandbits: 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:08]  baconsandbits: taking*
[2011/10/11 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I like to call it a plausible fiction. Unless, that is, you are deluded.
[2011/10/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Plausible fiction sounds like “conventional reality”, but approached from the other angle 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:09]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Is there anything less plausible than reality?
[2011/10/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But yes, Extie, I’d agree with that hehe
[2011/10/11 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Tara, I’d say that there are a lot of unplausible things!
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. pigs flying, pink elephants, unicorns… 😉
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: That is the second time you agree with me, Gwyn. I have set a new personal best.
[2011/10/11 16:10]  baconsandbits: Guys can you remind me again what the topic is about?
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: POSTMODERNISM AND HISTORY: Is there such a thing as a definitive history, or is history created by the stories we tell about the past and are there innumerable different stories to tell about the same events, as postmodernism claims there is?
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw Extie, I agree with you a LOT of times!!!!
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Unicorns aren’t implausible – virgins are.
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL Tara!
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Historical skepticism and deconstructionism, bacon
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Touché 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:10]  baconsandbits: LoL
[2011/10/11 16:10]  baconsandbits: >.L<
[2011/10/11 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: what about virgin unicorns?
[2011/10/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm!
[2011/10/11 16:11]  baconsandbits: Okay Rhi, got it.
[2011/10/11 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, pure fantsy
[2011/10/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2011/10/11 16:11]  baconsandbits: Well they might be pure fantasy to you Rhi.
[2011/10/11 16:11]  baconsandbits: but as you just said, we all have different realities.
[2011/10/11 16:11]  baconsandbits: 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bacon, I was joking; I actually ride a unicorn to work each day…
[2011/10/11 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Find enough people that can swear they can see the same virgin unicorns standing over there, and they become real.
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They’re real in Sl 😉
[2011/10/11 16:12]  baconsandbits: Exactly.
[2011/10/11 16:12]  baconsandbits: 😛
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Better than sparkly vampires.
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, but isn’t saying “real in SL” another way of saying, “they aren’t real”
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Awwww
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Besides, there’s always the Invisible Pink Unicorn (Blessed Be Her Hooves).
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hah yes)
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: yes, to some!
[2011/10/11 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW. . . The USA is saying today that Iran tried to hire Mexican cartels to blow up the Saudi ambassador. The Iranians say it’s all a fiction. Is it merely a difference of viewpoint? :/
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. like saying “unicorns only exist in dreams”
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘If I believe I float like a soap bubble, and you believe it, it happens. Reality exists only in the collective mind’-O’ Brian, 1984.
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Assuming that the Iranians aren’t lying, yes, it could be just that.
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yay! Derender does work in Singularity, but you can’t mute and derender at the same time
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent quote, Extie.
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Ahhh…
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: One of my favourites!
[2011/10/11 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2011/10/11 16:14]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Can you mute him from his profile, now that you’ve derendered him?
[2011/10/11 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it pretty much resumes what I was saying all along, Extie…
[2011/10/11 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tara, don’t know, but at least he’s not here…
[2011/10/11 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: hello, my friend is back
[2011/10/11 16:14]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Aye.
[2011/10/11 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Muting residents is much more interesting than discussing philosophy… 😉
[2011/10/11 16:15]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Which resets my derender… But it’s just a quick mouse click.
[2011/10/11 16:15]  Al Taurion: i’m an artist of matrix jung
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Al, can you visually spam us again, please? I need a good picture to report you to Linden Lab, and the other one I took wasn’t good.
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Al Taurion: ahahahahhahahahhahahahahah
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Al Taurion: ahahahahhahahhahahahahhahahh
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s no effort at all for you, I’m sure 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, mention how many people he’s interfered with; numbers add wait
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Al Taurion: la linden lab is my society
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Al Taurion: ahahahahhahahahahhahahahah
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): s/wait/weight/
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I suppose that text chat spam is also fine…
[2011/10/11 16:16]  Al Taurion: ahahahhahahahhahahahahahh
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yay, you can mute him after you derender him.
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Al Taurion: i’m a linden lab
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But visual spam makes it so much more interesting.
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And so what? I’m the Queen of England.
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Al Taurion: my effects are no lag
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo I get to do my E 209 impression. “You are in violation of Thinkers code of conduct! You have 10 seconds to comply…
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie
[2011/10/11 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, there is another good example… lag.
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): *GRINS* Eddie!
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: From the perspective of LL, lag doesn’t exist, it’s just a convenient fiction 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, you see, we can falsify that claim, and if you said that in 1910, you were the Queen of England, we could falsify that claim too–so just like in science, history is subject to test and cooroboration
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Al Taurion: repeat…my effects are no lag
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Rhi! We make up facts and devised a method to say which ones are valid and which aren’t!
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Al Taurion: do you undastend?
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And yes, there is a consensus element to methodology
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Conventional reality 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: 5 seconds to comply….
[2011/10/11 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: (try joining in the actual derbate, AI)
[2011/10/11 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Remind him of the topic, Extie…
[2011/10/11 16:19]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Someone asked Descarte to do something he didn’t like, and he said “I think not.” He disappeared.
[2011/10/11 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: POSTMODERNISM AND HISTORY: Is there such a thing as a definitive history, or is history created by the stories we tell about the past and are there innumerable different stories to tell about the same events, as postmodernism claims there is?
[2011/10/11 16:19]  Al Taurion: gli archetipidi jung sono le idee di platone
[2011/10/11 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): AI is already a memory to me…
[2011/10/11 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Tara!
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Goodnight, everyone 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tara, lol; but he did point out in medittions that to doubt ws to thnk
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye, Violet!
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye, Violet!
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Night, Violet!
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/10/11 16:20]  baconsandbits: So based on what I’ve read there simply isn’t any reality beyond each of our own beliefs or perceptions of reality.
[2011/10/11 16:20]  baconsandbits: Is that right?
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Al Taurion: i dont undastend english very good
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes. And no.
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bacon, but i disagree with that, and since reality is determined by my perceptions, the idea that there isn’t an objective reality must be wrong. lol
[2011/10/11 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well. Depends on what “reality” means. If you use a more weaker definition — reality is all that we all agree that exists — then sure, there is “a” reality
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … since we all can agree to nit
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *it
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: Ofcourse there is such a real realityu. However we should not be surprised we have evolved to COMPLETELY not see introcate and extremely important quantum phenomenon.
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: For example
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Al Taurion: i’m an esoterist
[2011/10/11 16:21]  baconsandbits: Well there isn’t.
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can all agree that Al Taurion is here with us, right?
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Al being here is “real” for us.
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: for now;)
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but the question is still begged–do we agree to it because it is reality, and we all perceive it, or is it reality because we all perceive it
[2011/10/11 16:21]  baconsandbits: Rhi your objective reality might be what you see now but the objective reality of a germ is totally different from what you percieve.
[2011/10/11 16:21]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): My radar reports him, even though I have him muted and derendered.
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we all know that he isn’t *really* here, because the “here” is different for each of us… and because this is just pixels… etc
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: He is behaving now, Tara.
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Maybe Earth has a Dark Matter satellite, *any* selfrespecting Klingon can see right away. “BUT IT’s RIGHT THERE STUPID HUMAND!”
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bacon, but the germ and I share some things in our perceptions.
[2011/10/11 16:22]  baconsandbits: Everything changes when you’re as small as a germ.
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Twirly Fire Stick (right): whispers: Kabaka makes the craziest #$%@#&!!
[2011/10/11 16:22]  baconsandbits: light is different
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, i love SL because it helped me understand the notion of “levels” of reality
[2011/10/11 16:22]  baconsandbits: particles look different
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I cannot answer the first part of the question because I have no way to devise a method to measure reality without an observer 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:22]  baconsandbits: temperature is different
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Material world is to the soul, as pixels are to the pbk
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The second part is definitely ture.
[2011/10/11 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *true
[2011/10/11 16:23]  baconsandbits: You simply say that its objective simply because you believe it to be true
[2011/10/11 16:23]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Ahh, the fun of Quantum Mechanics.
[2011/10/11 16:23]  Al Taurion: chi di voi fa come lavoro il filosofo?
[2011/10/11 16:23]  Al Taurion: io sono uno scrittore italiano
[2011/10/11 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: bacon: right, and because many (or even most) will agree with that belief
[2011/10/11 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bacon, no I have a methodology that i use, and the methodology, in turn, allows me to have certain practical considerations
[2011/10/11 16:23]  baconsandbits: Exactly
[2011/10/11 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Unless we have totally non-human conscious observers.
[2011/10/11 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They will be observers nevertheless 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And even if they aren’t non-human, the moment they *describe* it to us humans,
[2011/10/11 16:24]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): What about self-observing observations?
[2011/10/11 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: Interesting. So if all observers are stoned shitless on LSD will this have quantum disturbance effects?
[2011/10/11 16:24]  Al Taurion: nessuno di voi fa come lavoro il filosofo?
[2011/10/11 16:24]  baconsandbits: But then you’re creating your own reality which is not part of my reality Rhi
[2011/10/11 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: our perception will experience that description differently…
[2011/10/11 16:24]  baconsandbits: which goes back to my statement that
[2011/10/11 16:24]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Probably Khannea…
[2011/10/11 16:24]  baconsandbits: it only exist in our own perceptions of reality
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, that is the problem is saying that there are alternative conceptual frameworks–truly alternative ons would strike us as babble, others would be subsumable in ours.
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Of course, we don’t really know what constitutes an observer for purposes of QM effects.
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Al Taurion: i miei effetti parlano con il tuo inconscio
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: you might go further and ask; if reality really exists, and is independent of my mind, how come LSD can affect my perceptions?
[2011/10/11 16:25]  baconsandbits: the very fact that you used the word “you” means that that’s based on what you believe
[2011/10/11 16:25]  baconsandbits: What may be practical to you may not necessarily be practical to me
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Is the Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment bogus, because the cat observes itself?
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thus, if we replace consensus with ‘coceptual framework’ then it really doesn’t matter whether we are dealing with consensus reality or objective reality
[2011/10/11 16:25]  baconsandbits: I JUST REALIZED I HATE TYPING SO DAMN MUCH
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (in fact, for the LSD lovers, be glad that reality depends on the mind that experiences it, or LSD would we worthless and there would be no fun in using it!)
[2011/10/11 16:25]  baconsandbits: MY BEAUTIFULL FINGERS
[2011/10/11 16:25]  baconsandbits: t_t
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: The cat experiment is bogus for a whole bunch of reasons.
[2011/10/11 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: I agree, yes!
[2011/10/11 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: 4 seconds…3..2…1…I am now autherised to use physical force.
[2011/10/11 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if Gwyn and I can agree, then there goes deconstructionism
[2011/10/11 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeppers! hehe
[2011/10/11 16:26]  Second Life: Avatar ejected.
[2011/10/11 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds giggles and winks at Gwyn
[2011/10/11 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: I listeed to music I never heard before. Mozart, while I was high on LSD this summer. I SWEAR you I could hear the melody a full 10 seconds before I could hear it. Better I showed someoine, and she agreed, I moved my hands on music that was appearing /energing later.
[2011/10/11 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: It was uncanny
[2011/10/11 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hey, is he really gone?
[2011/10/11 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: *Sings ‘I got the power’ by Snap!*
[2011/10/11 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not surprised, Khannea 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Time, of course, is also relative to the observer;)
[2011/10/11 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, psychedelics can give you a precogntie sense
[2011/10/11 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But precognition presuppoes the reality of time
[2011/10/11 16:27]  baconsandbits: I used to believe that there is no truth
[2011/10/11 16:27]  baconsandbits: like the universal truth
[2011/10/11 16:27]  baconsandbits: but since this conversation
[2011/10/11 16:28]  baconsandbits: i realized that when i say there is a reality
[2011/10/11 16:28]  baconsandbits: is actually stating that there is a universal truth
[2011/10/11 16:28]  baconsandbits: >?_>
[2011/10/11 16:28]  baconsandbits: >.<
[2011/10/11 16:28]  baconsandbits: I need to read more philosophy books
[2011/10/11 16:28]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): The reality is, baconsandbits, that anything you say, someone else will contradict.
[2011/10/11 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: I have seen so much continuity errors in the last few years I am increasingly feeling we live in a simulation. Problem is, I can see no sense what this simulation is doing.
[2011/10/11 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If there is an “universal truth”, it has to be experienced by all of us — philosophy or no philosophy —… and in a way that is unclouded by our own perceptions.
[2011/10/11 16:29]  baconsandbits: I already wrapped my head around the universal truth bit Gwyn
[2011/10/11 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, if Hick’s is right, this ‘simulation” is to develop our souls.
[2011/10/11 16:29]  baconsandbits: its this reality shite I cant wrap my head around
[2011/10/11 16:29]  baconsandbits: sorry for the bad word
[2011/10/11 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good 🙂
[2011/10/11 16:29]  baconsandbits: butttt my head hurts
[2011/10/11 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean it!
[2011/10/11 16:29]  baconsandbits: Y_Y
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s an “M” sim, you can use bad words, bacon
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If this reality did NOT depend on our minds,
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Buttt my butt hurts
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: then LSD wouldn’t work 😉
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: More to the point, the finantial crisis would be unsolvable 😉
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We couldn’t entertain ourselves to ‘forget’ about the horrors out there
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): What if we are all just fragments of the It, which also includes this and all other worlds we inhabit, at all times they exist, in all the myriad ways probability says they could exist? One huge It-ness playing a game with itself to pass Eternity?
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And so forth
[2011/10/11 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: and with that, my time is up!
[2011/10/11 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tara: Occam’s razor 😉
[2011/10/11 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: !!!
[2011/10/11 16:31]  baconsandbits: Well after the whole Al incident Rhi, I don’t wanna piss off Extro.>_.
[2011/10/11 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Tar, you’ve been reading those Sanscript scriptures again, haven’t you?
[2011/10/11 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[2011/10/11 16:31]  baconsandbits: @@
[2011/10/11 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: VIDEO GAMING’S GOLDEN AGE…
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