THINKERS SEP 13 2011: ANIMALISM

Nindae Nox at Thinkers

 Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers! (thanks Ivy!) Today the discussion is…ANIMALISM.
[2011/09/13 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: ANIMALISM: Philosopher Eric T Olsen asked, “isn’t it obvious we are just animals?”. He called this view Animalism, which is the idea that “there is a certain human organism, and that organism is you”. Sounds reasonable. Why, then, does Joseph Merick’s cry “I am not an animal” sound equally true?
[2011/09/13 15:35]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): ℒeraje Ðamon χevious hopes K rolls both 1’s.
[2011/09/13 15:35]  Forceme: Forceme attaches a leash to Bouncing’s collar.
[2011/09/13 15:36]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Because we humans don’t like to face the truth about ourselves.
[2011/09/13 15:36]  Lem Skall: what is an animal and what constitutes NOT being an animal?
[2011/09/13 15:36]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): We *want* to be some magical being more than anything else.
[2011/09/13 15:36]  Lem Skall: and at what point in evolution did we stop being animals?
[2011/09/13 15:36]  persela pet (persela): persela pet thinks our language is ill equiped sometimes
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: did we stop?
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Animalism_(VTR) ?
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): (I think the word we might take issue with in Tolsen’s question is “just”)
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): *sometimes*, persela? I think natural languages are pretty much wrong all of the time.
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Theodore Theseus: Doesn’t this carry over frm the bible where we are in charge to the animals of gods creation
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Rachael Darkrose: Why it poses as “either or”?
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem, at what point in evolution did animals stop bein plants? ALL life shares a grand common ancestor so you could argue the distsinction between plant andaniml is equaly false.
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Rachael Darkrose: *posed
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Elspeth Guyot: maybe something to do with Kant – we are pinnacles of evolution and therefore somehow better than the animals?
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: pretty much, yes, it’s some sort of religious dillusion that we are some sort of divine creatures above animals
[2011/09/13 15:37]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Well it shows our hierachical thinking. We can be reduced to the state of animals.
[2011/09/13 15:37]  persela pet (persela): I will give it the benifit of the doubt….due to lack of other fesable options
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: It seems like I picked a good session to come to as a furry, anyhow. 😀
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): obied, lol
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: uhuh, Zo
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe, Zo
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): And I’m naked like an animal
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Even have a crawl ani
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Loki Mischief (lokimischief): we must eat and fuck like animals all other is different
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve two dogs and they are not naked, they have fur
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: Not really, Nakey. Most animals have a fur coat.
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Merc is a fox
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: ha!
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Tara Li hears “hungry like the wolf” for some reason…
[2011/09/13 15:38]  Lem Skall: Extie, animals and plants are totally separate branches, animals did not evolve from plants, they oth evolved from the same origin
[2011/09/13 15:39]  Lem Skall: both*
[2011/09/13 15:39]  Elspeth Guyot: Elspeth Guyot would prefer to be a Zerg.
[2011/09/13 15:39]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAoFPIHBu6U
[2011/09/13 15:39]  Lem Skall: we are very intelligent animals
[2011/09/13 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: TADADATAA TADADATATA .. TADADATAA TADADATATA … IT”S DUH FIINAH COWDOWWW
[2011/09/13 15:39]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Violet would prefer to sit far away from Elspeth…. 😛
[2011/09/13 15:40]  Rachael Darkrose: We (humans) differ from the only animals in our ability to rationalize, and in the perceived necessity to do so.
[2011/09/13 15:40]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): Let’s not confuse genetic traits for definition of what is or is not an animal.
[2011/09/13 15:40]  Rachael Darkrose: *other
[2011/09/13 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: We are intelligent animals that allowed the Technium to come into being. That, I believe, is the crucial difference.
[2011/09/13 15:40]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Our use of language is the key distinction, I think, between us and other animals.
[2011/09/13 15:40]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): I’m not so sure we are on the only animals to rationalize – watch a cat fall off a TV and walk away – saying very clearly with their body language “I meant to do that!”
[2011/09/13 15:40]  Lem Skall: other animals have rudimentary rationalization too
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Rachael Darkrose: such as?
[2011/09/13 15:41]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): Is it Violet? Whales and Dolphins use a language.
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Lem Skall: other animals have language too
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Violet, yes, if Noam Chomsky is right. Damon, we are the only animals with an advanced grammar and syntax
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh we differ from other animals in more ways, but then there are quite few species that also differ from the rest of the animal kingdom by a margin 🙂
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: But that is you anthropomorphising that cat’s body language.
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): No, not our possession of language, but our use of complex language; most animal “language” is something else, much more basic…
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Hi ArtCrash
[2011/09/13 15:41]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Is it, Extropia, or is it a shared body language that happens to match?
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Lem Skall: maybe only transmitting information in other ways than directly, that’s where we’re different
[2011/09/13 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m LATE!
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: This is what animals do when they get really smart > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFJOaI8ruqc
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Right, syntax, grammar and using language as a cross-generational record, etc.
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: FAshionably so
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: you are! Sit down, F!
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We’re pretty much the only animals doing that, ASAWK
[2011/09/13 15:42]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): I agree, Nakey, we are the only with an ordered lexicon and graphical methods of transferring ideas, but that is due to genetic selection, in my opinion.
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): AFAWK even
[2011/09/13 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: I guess I should take off my tourette’s anim attachment… heh
[2011/09/13 15:42]  Lem Skall: btw, we can teach some apes words, I wonder when they may start learning to read
[2011/09/13 15:43]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): IIRC – there’s been some limited reading recognition work done with chimps & such already.
[2011/09/13 15:43]  Elspeth Guyot: if you count symbols, several already do.
[2011/09/13 15:43]  Theodore Theseus: But Violet you say. …”ther animals”
[2011/09/13 15:43]  Theodore Theseus: other
[2011/09/13 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Well em one Bonobo could construct simple sentences from a word board, so I guess she sort of learned to read.
[2011/09/13 15:43]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): Aren’t all graphical modes of transfer “symbols”?
[2011/09/13 15:43]  Theodore Theseus: s we are animals, right?
[2011/09/13 15:44]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, humans are animals….but I wouldn’t think of us as “just” animals :p
[2011/09/13 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: No to make apes talk, read and all that we need to kill them. Lots of them, and leave only the ones ‘making progress’. The highly efficient repoublican way to progress.
[2011/09/13 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Well what animal is ‘just’ an animal?
[2011/09/13 15:44]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Ticks. Ticks are just filthy animals.
[2011/09/13 15:44]  Theodore Theseus: maybe the top of the food chain then
[2011/09/13 15:44]  Lem Skall: hah, Extie, I was going to say the same thing
[2011/09/13 15:44]  persela pet (persela): persela pet considers….”perhaps we are animals with slighty more advanced reasoning abilitys….debateably”
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: to paraphrase what I said earlier, humans arguing to not be animals are squares arguing to be rectangles
[2011/09/13 15:45]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): we are genetic or biological animals evolved on structures over time and traits build on servival or reproduction.
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): “just” is a very denegrating word, when we use it in that manner.
[2011/09/13 15:45]  persela pet (persela): persela pet thinks Ivy is onto something
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Jah and just that little extra will allow us to nuke countries. Imagine what 3 kilo of brain will get us.
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Lem Skall: most mammals already have an intelligence that is pretty close to ours, even their DNA is very close
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: to not bed*
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: be**
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: dammit
[2011/09/13 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I was observing the beehive in my back yard. No leader, no direction, no orders, it is all done with genetics and chemical signals. Quite amazing. We are similar but don’t realize it.
[2011/09/13 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller shoots typist
[2011/09/13 15:46]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): I think when examining the qoute “isn’t it obvious we are just animals?”, you must examine it in context of the discussion it was presented in to cement the meaning of “just”.
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Mercurius Jacobus: I have just read Olson’s article for animalism. It seems that he is guilty of exploiting a double-meaning of “personal identity” – yes, the thing that I refer to with the noun “I” is an animal, made of flesh and capable of thought; but I also use that noun to refer just to my mind and personal sentience, which is not an animal at all.
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Theodore Theseus: beehive have order
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Violet, it’s not complex language per se; it’s language with a system of grammar, rules, semantics, syntaxx, pragmatikcs
[2011/09/13 15:46]  persela pet (persela): you can observe most office social dynamics, by looking at chickens going about there activitys
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Even in Naturre programs they say ‘animals and humans’ as though they are seperate. They never say ‘animals and whales’ or ‘animals and Tigers’ becaise, well, whatles and Tigers ARE animals. But, so are humans!
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Lem Skall: I would say that non-mammals are clearly inferior to mammals
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Theodore Theseus: ArtCrash, beehives are a social network
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Ivy Sunkiller: Theodore: planets around sun have order too, there is a difference between order and orders 🙂
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Mm, Tara. There’s nothing wrong with animals, but throwing “just” in implies that there is…that it’s somehow limiting in itself, like when people argue that instinct is immutable
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): The thing about Merrick was that he was being treated as a lower animnal–it’s that sense of hierarchy again.
[2011/09/13 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Intelligence allows a being to both make ‘better” choices, as well as less predictable ones.
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): ( That’s what I mean by “complex language,” Nakey :p )
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Violet, oh, ok
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: But he sure was a good exorcist.
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh MerrIN.
[2011/09/13 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: Theodore, my point is that there isn’t any teaching or learning going on and no boss in a beehive. It is all just their predefined genetic makeup that makes things go in a beehive.
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): hi, Is Elspeth here?
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): And as far as chimpanzees, they won’t be able to read unles they get that complexity; only pick out some words
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Lem Skall: well, we just use words to separate humans from everyone else
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: yes, she is
[2011/09/13 15:47]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Same with dolphins
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I think that everyone is missing the “just” part in relation to Merrick–why that was so poignant.
[2011/09/13 15:48]  persela pet (persela): persela pet considers how easly humans will turn the outgroup into psudo animals
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu screams hysterically
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Rachael Darkrose: Perhaps we only differ from the other animals in our ability to exploit them
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: and runs to switch off Jersey Shore
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Theodore Theseus: social networks have properties that do not reside in the individual
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): ooh lots rezzing
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It’s not really clear if chimps really understand language or learn to recognize certain things though, is it? Like, they have insight, but they don’t seem to have language, unless I’m mistaken
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): still looking for Els
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Hi Solar
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): ah found
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): hello all 🙂
[2011/09/13 15:48]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): Well, Nakey, that is when they are attempting to converse in our language… how would we fare in doing the same in their language?
[2011/09/13 15:48]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Yes, I’m not totally rezzed; lots of grey people
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: Humans clearly have a soul. Do chimps have a soul?
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Lem Skall: we separate ourselves from other animals but we are pretty close to them, having said that we are also different enough to treat humans differently from other animals, legally and morally
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Mercurius Jacobus: Clearly?
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Damon, well, we can learn their language easily enoough. I’ve learned my dogs’ language.
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Lem Skall: ther si no soul
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: I still maintain that it is our ability to create technology that differentiates us. Yes, other animals make tools, but they do not use tools to make more tools and yet more tools of increasing complexity.
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): lol
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: What do you mean, humans clearly have a soul?
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: TBH by studying election results I’m not sure vast majority of human beings understand language
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Prove it! 😛
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Lem Skall: there is no soul
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: hehehehe
[2011/09/13 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: YOu want to test mind over genetic predisposition? Try going on a diet…. heh
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): what is a soul?
[2011/09/13 15:49]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): And Dolphins and whales?
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Extie, but that’s an application of language–mathematics, to be precise.
[2011/09/13 15:49]  Rachael Darkrose: Lem, what is a soul”?
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Theodore Theseus: Where is the soul located
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Khannea Suntzu: Wow, so the best way of evoking an emotional response here is to make silly religious statements?
[2011/09/13 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Lem Skall: Rachael, I can’t answer if there is nosuch thing
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Of course. It’s the internet :p
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Theodore Theseus: how do we know other animals don’t have a soul
[2011/09/13 15:50]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): Hehe, Khannea.
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: religion or kittens
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Khannea, ARistotle though animals and vegetable have a soul.
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: aka LOLCATS
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Nakey mathematics cannot do much without an ability to manipulate the physical world.
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): The soul is the life force, or that part of being that can grasp eternity.
[2011/09/13 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: We do know that other animals worship the flying spaghetti monster. Isn’t it obvious? heh
[2011/09/13 15:50]  Theodore Theseus: I believe in kittens, but not religin
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): And animals, at least the higher ones, ccan grasp abstractions, and hence the eternal.
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): sorry, I’m a late arrival but why discuss the soul of animals or its ‘location’?
[2011/09/13 15:51]  persela pet (persela): becouse people have the urge to alwase be right, and one can not prove one way or the other to the satifaction in hard siance sometimes, much less an amorphus subject like religion
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: 饶了我吧
[2011/09/13 15:51]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): So animalism in the form of genetics an traits or nature of the animal. Or do you mean more of a psychological and social animal and the actions we do as humans compared to animals?
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Lem Skall: ok, animals don’t believe in Jesus but then neither do Jews
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Elspeth Guyot: Pasta be Its Name.
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Solar, well, the topic is how do we differ from animals–if we do.
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): ok, on board
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: phew! I can’t grasp eternity, thank goodness I don’t have a soul
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): And one traditional way to do so is to posit souls.
[2011/09/13 15:51]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): But when using the argument that to have a soul, one must perceive abstracts, does that then mean that our own human young do not have a soul until they have been alive for a number of years?
[2011/09/13 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: The topic is ‘How much’ of is is genetically operated vs our will.
[2011/09/13 15:51]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Ivy, if you can grasp 2+2=4 you can grasp an eternal form, and hence eternity.
[2011/09/13 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: us
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: not really
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: In Judaism soul is not something you have, but somethikng you can hope to achieve. You participate in soul, rather than simply ‘have’ it or not.
[2011/09/13 15:52]  persela pet (persela): persela pet admires how much respect boy loveing greek old men get thousands of years later
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: If that is true we can subject very young humans to medical experiments.
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can grasp the idea of it, but I can’t imagine eternity
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Damon, well, actually, thaat is a good point. Plato thought that they haven’t yet ‘remembered’ the abstractions; they are there latently though
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Ivy, don’t need to, in order to have a soul.
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: or eternal lenght or a similar mathematical abstract
[2011/09/13 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: dammit!
[2011/09/13 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: can I get rid of it somehow?
[2011/09/13 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: is there a cure?
[2011/09/13 15:53]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): I think Plato was just trying to justify something to soothe mothers that their children were not ‘soulless’.
[2011/09/13 15:53]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There’s an exit at the end of eternity.
[2011/09/13 15:53]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): can’t souls be sold?
[2011/09/13 15:53]  Khannea Suntzu: Switch off that goddamn phone *growls*
[2011/09/13 15:53]  Rachael Darkrose: I is a separate entity, a philospohical construct, a part of all living thing (transcedentalism), a planetary coonciousness (Gaia)? Depending on which these definionts you use, I would argue that animals have a “souls”
[2011/09/13 15:53]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Damon, well, ti served an epistemological point for hiim–where did the knowledge come from? It had to be remembered from a prior lifetime; hence, there is a soul.
[2011/09/13 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Since there is no real evidence or even a possibility of evidence for a soul. It is not worth arguing about. The premise of those who believe in the sould is that it exists. End of argument.
[2011/09/13 15:54]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): As soon as there is ensouldment; and later theologians placed that at ‘quickening.’
[2011/09/13 15:54]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): heh. About the 3rd trimester–funny thing.
[2011/09/13 15:54]  Lem Skall: whoa, what Nakey?
[2011/09/13 15:54]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Actually, ArtCrash, there is at least *one* argument that suggests that a soul is an energy pattern massing somewhere between 6 and 24 grams.
[2011/09/13 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Interesting. So if I remember being interstellar carbons, then that has a soul too?
[2011/09/13 15:54]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Lem, where did you get lost?
[2011/09/13 15:54]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Khannea, and what makes you think the universe doesn’t have a soul?
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): ensouldment.com
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[2011/09/13 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: probably the same spot I got lost, the fairytaleology
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: Kinda deflates the tern. But sure whatever.
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): This is so small in relation to the human body weight, it’s almost impossible to detect it detaching at the point of death.
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Lem Skall: it had to be remembered from a previous life? why?
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Lem, because it is presupposed by our knowledge in this lifetime.
[2011/09/13 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: OK, let’s forget about the religious dogma here. We can’t argue someone’s dogma. It take two to argue a point. two who are searching for the answer. If one already proclaims it to start with, there can’t be a discussion.
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Lem Skall: presupposed? not just supposed?
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): fairytaleology.com
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[2011/09/13 15:55]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): So concepts, being prior to present experience, have to come from bgefore
[2011/09/13 15:55]  Lem Skall: Nakey, it’s called books
[2011/09/13 15:56]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yay language 🙂
[2011/09/13 15:56]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Art, if you had been listening carefully, you’d realize no dogma had been put forth, religious or otherwise.
[2011/09/13 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: That is naked rhetoritcal crowbarring. Just what I’d expect from a blonde.
[2011/09/13 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: And culture, lem.
[2011/09/13 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Nakey, you presume the existence of a soul. That is dogma by definition.
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: hear hear
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Mercurius Jacobus: I don’t accept that concepts are prior to expreience – we speak of stimuli “inspiring” us, of “giving me the idea” – this is where all our concepts come from.
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): ARt, as yuou clearly weren’t listening to me, why should I bother answering you now?
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Lem Skall: not presume, presuppose
[2011/09/13 15:57]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): So Plato inferred that there is some form of, in effect, cellular memory? A concept mostly attributed to ‘animals’?
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Merc, well, how do we recognize the application of the concept though?
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Damon, cellular memory is a modern way of putting it, yes.
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Lem Skall: there is a genetic memory but it does not preserve that much
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): He thought that prior existence accounted for it.
[2011/09/13 15:57]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Violet wonders how coincidental it is that we go from talking about our animalness to souls :p
[2011/09/13 15:58]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Also the human longing to know and be apart of one or a whole. When the whole is perception and there bodies and input and out put to the surrounding fabric and environment. Or leave a mimetic memory behind as a sharing like relationships friends or family even or the world. How else will they grapple with there subconscious as they grow, but to make religion? from primal man in prehistory wanting to believe and live on in memory.
[2011/09/13 15:58]  Khannea Suntzu: See? Animals can learn tricks. I just learned nakeygirl how to troll everyone by constantly talking about semi-spiritual crap. Next I am going to teach her the concept of kitchen.
[2011/09/13 15:58]  Mercurius Jacobus: We don’t. No material fact ever exactly matches an ideal.
[2011/09/13 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s not get bogged down with one person’s religious beliefs here. Let’s get back to what about human is NOT animal behavior.
[2011/09/13 15:58]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Violet, not a coincidence at all; as it is one way to make the status difference.
[2011/09/13 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: I think it’s a big diversion.
[2011/09/13 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Nakey wyhy should we give much credence to what Plato thought, given that he lived millenia before anyone knew about Darwinism and countless other scientific theories?
[2011/09/13 15:59]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Art try doing that without presuppositions. I don’t think we should get bogged down with one person’s materialistic dogmas
[2011/09/13 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: if genetic memory doesn’t even store the information how to walk, we all just learn it on our own
[2011/09/13 15:59]  Rachael Darkrose: I still think Twain had it dead-on “Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.”
[2011/09/13 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller crits english grammar for 100
[2011/09/13 15:59]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Rachael, I’ve always lliked that
[2011/09/13 15:59]  Lem Skall: Art, nothing about humans is NOT animal nature, we only elevated it to a new level
[2011/09/13 15:59]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): yes lem
[2011/09/13 16:00]  Ivy Sunkiller: I love new firestorm, can see all the people that perv Nakey this moment
[2011/09/13 16:00]  Elspeth Guyot: But do we think that we are BETTER than animals?
[2011/09/13 16:00]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): Ivy, I would add that we also learn through other’s conveyed experience and novellization. 🙂
[2011/09/13 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Plato, much like religion starts with a premise that subverts the argument. Plato’s premise is that there is such thing as ‘ideal forms’ that are separate from the world of things……
[2011/09/13 16:00]  Lem Skall: only when we become immaterial spirits, then we will have become non-animals
[2011/09/13 16:00]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): We certainly do a better job of killing than other animals.
[2011/09/13 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: It might be instructive to consider animal-like humans of history.
[2011/09/13 16:00]  Elspeth Guyot: is that better?
[2011/09/13 16:00]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Plato’s premise is simply that if we recognie the application of an idea, like, say, triangularity, we need to know what a triangle is first.
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: HArd to say, Eslpeth. Other animals have no language and that makes it very hard for us to know their mind. At least on anything beyond a superficial level.
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): And that can’t come from the eperience of triangles, as we wouldn’t recognize them as such without the concept
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: If nature is a very predictable causal chain, life clearly is a widening of the possibility range and as intelligence increases the only thing that seems to happen is more new deveklopments and less predictability. Maybe intelligence is just ‘accelerating entropy’ ?
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: Myths about “wild men” living in the hills. . . children raised by wolves. . . bigfoot and yeti. . .
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think we do a better job of adapting than other animals….which can go in a lot of directions
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Lem Skall: ah, here’s an idea that Extie may like, what about when we become posthuman or transhuman, are we still going to be animals?
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s how Merrick felt he was being treated.
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Hi Paris!
[2011/09/13 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: I am not an animal Lem.
[2011/09/13 16:01]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37830165/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/chimps-kill-chimps-land/
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: Like a subhuman. . .
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I’m half an animal on a stick 😛
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Lem Skall: Extie, I don’t know what YOU are
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Neother are you, are anyone in this sim.
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Zobeid, yes
[2011/09/13 16:02]  persela pet (persela): i think if we moved to post or transhuman, animal tendancys will still show for quite some time
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: well there are some bacteria that live in conditions we couldn’t 🙂
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Elspeth Guyot: that’s if we are not bots of course.
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Mercurius Jacobus: Nakey, that is exactly the thing – you cannot identify qualities humans that have as ‘non-animal’ without asserting unjustified principles. If you think it is possible, please do it.
[2011/09/13 16:02]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): I am certainly an animal and I do think we will carry those traits into transhuman states.
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Lem Skall: I am my primary speaking here
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): It’s the hierarchy again. Humans are higher than the animals but lower than the angels.
[2011/09/13 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: We assume that what makes us different from animals, is that through the application of will, we are able to control all of our natural instincts. This is true to some degree, but I submit that there is far more that we can’t control through will than we realize.
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: what about devils?
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): if we go transhuman, what would justify us not being animals (does it stop at being non bio?)
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: are humans above devils or below?
[2011/09/13 16:02]  Lem Skall: I see myself or my *I* as the primary
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Devils ar more practical than angels.
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Elspeth Guyot: that was my question Ivy
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: or to left or right?
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: The point being, though, that *civilization* is what makes the difference. The boy raised by wolves isn’t physically or gentically an animal. In that sense he’s just as human as any other.
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): So they might rank higher than angels :p
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Paris Bubble: in case voice isn’t working, hello everybody
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Paris
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Hiya
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): hey
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Lem Skall: Paris, what voice?
[2011/09/13 16:03]  ArtCrash Exonar: Paris, we don’t use voice in this discussion, just fyi
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Ivy Sunkiller: Elspeth: sorry, I really didn’t intend to steal it 🙂
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): The application of will is also a crucial distinction; we supposedly have free will, but Nozick pointed out that animals make choices too.
[2011/09/13 16:03]  Mercurius Jacobus: hi paris. I can go fetch some speakers if you want to use voice
[2011/09/13 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Fair enough, Lem. But ‘Lem Skall’ is still not biological. He is computer code. So Lem is not human even if his current primary is.
[2011/09/13 16:04]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): don’t tell me ppl are debating this in voice?
[2011/09/13 16:04]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): No, Solar
[2011/09/13 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: no Solar
[2011/09/13 16:04]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We’re in text
[2011/09/13 16:04]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): perhaps we are all bots?
[2011/09/13 16:04]  Lem Skall: Extie, Lem Skall has no thoughts, no intelligence, no feelings
[2011/09/13 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Solar, there is no voice here. We ask those interested in the discussion to use the chat history box to see what is happening.
[2011/09/13 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: we are in text but we can understand your confusion given the current level of conversation 😀
[2011/09/13 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: That depends on what side of the digital looking glass you are on, Lem.
[2011/09/13 16:05]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): who said I was confused? :p
[2011/09/13 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: I did
[2011/09/13 16:05]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): Now if you knew your animal parts before hand and as they show. Would you want to change them? And if so what traits?
[2011/09/13 16:05]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): ohoh
[2011/09/13 16:05]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I couldn’t follow it if it ewre in voice. The text allows me to go back when I get confused.
[2011/09/13 16:05]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Beat me :p
[2011/09/13 16:05]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): I do think we need to leave the mental constructs brought into the known expierience after humans started on the Earth.
[2011/09/13 16:06]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Lab, what are the animal parts?
[2011/09/13 16:06]  Lem Skall: Extie, that depends on which “you” you’re referring to
[2011/09/13 16:06]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): lizard brain and such
[2011/09/13 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: I like ribs, grilled
[2011/09/13 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes it does, Lem.
[2011/09/13 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: though there are other animal parts I like too
[2011/09/13 16:06]  Khannea Suntzu: Aha. Getting rid of Animal. Nice moment to bring up Deus Ex. I’d so take these wolverine spurs…….
[2011/09/13 16:07]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): That would still be a spiritual part. Itm ight cash out the notion of concupiscence, though. In that, the sould is enslaved to the body, but it’s still a spiritual state.
[2011/09/13 16:07]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): played Deus Ex Revolution?
[2011/09/13 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh uhuh yah
[2011/09/13 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think there have been some very interesting twins studies that show that there are a bunch of preferences that people have genetically that they assumed were choices of will.
[2011/09/13 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes I am plahying it.
[2011/09/13 16:07]  Ivy Sunkiller: what is this spiritual part again?
[2011/09/13 16:07]  Mercurius Jacobus: Angels and pins
[2011/09/13 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: You with a goatee (shudders)
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Elspeth Guyot: I think I left it in a handbag somewhere.
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Merc, questions and begging
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: One might suggest that stone age hunter-gatherer societies weren’t all *that* different from animals. But then we undertook this whole experiment called “civilization” that set us apart — and its outcome still unknown.
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Mercurius Jacobus: What questions are begging?
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah Khannea, I hate men with beards. Brings my thighs out in a rash.
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): art, no, the studies showed, at most, that there are genetic predispositons toward certain behaviors
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): are you alleging that we aren’t hunter gatherers now?
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Not that achoices are determined by genes
[2011/09/13 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh why Extie? a beard is such a nerdy attribute, and nerds are cool!
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: There are still a few left, Solar. But for the most part. . .
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yeah….hunting-gathering is pretty much our basic instinctual MO, but we’ve added lots of complexity….
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Ivy, you have a beard?
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: Ivy has a Toy. THat is way better.
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Elspeth Guyot: I don’t think hunter gathering is any more instinctive than living in towns
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: I’d rather have a beard than a soul
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Rachael Darkrose: Choices may be pre-disposed due to genetic preferences, but are certainly not pre-dtermined
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): we’ve just outsourced the hunting and gathering, clearly
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): No hunter/gathering is a learned response.
[2011/09/13 16:09]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Rachael, precisely
[2011/09/13 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: Zobeid, it is turning out through archaeological evidence that so called ‘stone age’ man of 30,000 years ago had similar sensibilties to what we have today. The French cave art is a case in point and the cultural artifacts that are being found lately.
[2011/09/13 16:10]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Ivy, well, you have no choice about either…only whether both are between your legs or not…
[2011/09/13 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: I have the theory that the transition from pleistocene to holocene to anthropocene canme with a few thousand years of radical evolutionary pressure in the form of tyrannies and dictators and genocides, and THAT created in the majority of humans a set of very curious behavioral disorders and seeingly irratioinalitie…. why we constantly expect this tyrant to look over our shoulder…. original sin….conformism…. teabaggers…
[2011/09/13 16:10]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, it’s pretty much what we tend to do at our most basic, Eslpeth….we do it in a whole variety of ways, but it’s pretty much how humans survive.
[2011/09/13 16:10]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): I refer here, to hunting for OIL, one of the most important industries run by a small number of men
[2011/09/13 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: at least one can be shaved though
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Elspeth Guyot: fun when it starts to grow back, Ivy.
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think that contradicts my idea, ArtCrash.
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Ivy, I got the laser treatment; ironically right before I quit my dancing carrer.
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Laser hair removal. The only way to civilization.
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Hah
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Lem Skall: Khannea, balding too
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Now, I just feel the breeze. lol
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: so do they do laser treatments for souls too?
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Rachael Darkrose: I prefer shaving
[2011/09/13 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yeah, body hair is gross.
[2011/09/13 16:12]  ArtCrash Exonar: I read an interesting fact recently and that is that whatever our circumstances, our maximum number of friends and acquaintances is almost exactly the same as the ideal number in a hunter gatherer society. Around 100 total
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Khannea, can you try to be civil, or are you suffering from a very curious behavioral disorder? 😛
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Ivy, yes, it’s called bureaucracy
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: hahaha
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Dunbar’s number, Art?
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s a good one, I’ll give you that 🙂
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Rachael Darkrose: Is that what separates us from other animals? The inclination to shave??? 😉
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Elspeth Guyot: it’s in her genes I think Zobeid
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The monkeysphere! (Dunbarr’s number) :p
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes, I have been subjected to genocide. Its real annoying when I play FPS games, these bastards constantly teabag me.
[2011/09/13 16:12]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Lots of animals are way into personal grooming 😛
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Its worse in tomb raider, there they teavag me.
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Art, I read the same, only the number was different.
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Mercurius Jacobus: I keep hearing wildly different values for that number – 240, 100, 60, 12, 4.
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Dunbarr’s number is um
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Rachael Darkrose: yes, as a social interaction, I was being facetious
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I think SL is the same too; we have maybe 100 good friends.
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I’ve heard 50, Merc
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: The Tribe
[2011/09/13 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Exite Dunbar’s number is it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar’s_number
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: OK that does it, Khannea gets muted again. 😛
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): It’s probably somewhere between 4 and 6 billion.
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Mhur 😦
[2011/09/13 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: hey no muting sweets!
[2011/09/13 16:14]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Dunbars number is a spectrum
[2011/09/13 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: why isn’t it called Dunbar’s spectrum then?
[2011/09/13 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: When people are going out of their way to insult me, I don’t have to sit around listening to that.
[2011/09/13 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: It isn’t so bad, zobeid 🙂 http://www.truth-out.org/cult-death/1315937077
[2011/09/13 16:15]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Iunno, “the monkeysphere” is my preferred nomenclature 😛
[2011/09/13 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: Looks like the number is around 150 in most cases
[2011/09/13 16:15]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh it was quite funny Zo 🙂
[2011/09/13 16:16]  Mercurius Jacobus: The “monkeyshere” article on Cracked was utter bullshit, von Mises antisocialist propaganda.
[2011/09/13 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t get the joke.
[2011/09/13 16:16]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Wait, what? It was? How?
[2011/09/13 16:16]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, you clearly not play enough games, but hey, Macs are cool too
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Lem Skall: I don’t get what Khannea said to offend you
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: don’t play*
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: It wasn’t offensive. I mean is this offensive? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftNN4J4qZwg
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Let’s move on
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: it’s like religion, you have to be religious to get offended by some things
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Forceme: Forceme removes the leash from Bouncing’s collar.
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Merc, you wanted an example of a question begging? You just gave it.
[2011/09/13 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah. Sort of like a muslim fundamentalist.
[2011/09/13 16:18]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): as an atheist, surely one can get offended by religion
[2011/09/13 16:18]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): To use von Mises to discredit a position implies he’s wrong; and *that* is question begging.
[2011/09/13 16:18]  Lem Skall: Zo, you’re a tea partier?
[2011/09/13 16:18]  Elspeth Guyot: as a religious person one can get offended by religion!
[2011/09/13 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s right.
[2011/09/13 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: What’s wrong with tea? I have tea here beside me. Tastes good.
[2011/09/13 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: Let’s not go there, that is a can of worms for another day.
[2011/09/13 16:19]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Art, as I said, somewhere between 4 and yy6 billion.
[2011/09/13 16:19]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): humans outnumber worms?
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Can we all just be nice to each other?
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Lem Skall: ok, Zo, but that is not personal, I don’t see why you take it personally
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Come on, let’s sing the “Hi, Ho” song
[2011/09/13 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: When you are talking biomass I think termites outnumber everythign
[2011/09/13 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: heh
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Elspeth Guyot: kum by ya….
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem maybe ths discussion is best held between you and Zo in IM?
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Mercurius Jacobus: “Sociecty doesn’t fucking work, because it is a fact of nature that humans are designed to only empaphise with X other people and not care about others – beyond our X friends and family, we are naturally selfish and exploitative without sympathy. Greed is good and compassion is communist nonsense that humans are not designed for! Evolution proves it!”
[2011/09/13 16:20]  persela pet (persela): atheist is just the latest group claiming to know the truth, ignoreing some of the details of there beliefs, they have the same eleitism, infighting and demands that all other groups convert to there view point, same as christian, muslam, buddist (in a very passive aggressive way) and hindi
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: How could that not be personal? 😛
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I saw people eat termites on Fear Factor once.
[2011/09/13 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: I can’t be nice if I’m offended by being told that I’ve a soul! 😦
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Jacen Helix: I’ll buy it off you.
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: how much will you pay?
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Jacen Helix: $10?
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Ivy Sunkiller: pfff
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Rachael Darkrose: And that is the difference between man and his kindred animals. The abilty to be angered, and to anger, over disagreements over conceptual abstract theories
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Jacen Helix: Seems a fair price
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Merc, well, he doesn’t presuppose that in Human Action.
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Jacen Helix: 😛
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Lem Skall: ok, so where are we on the topic?
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): persela, wow.
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, Persela religious people reject nearly the gods of other religions. Atheism just goes one god further;)
[2011/09/13 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma is an atheist, but isn’t a member of any organized group.
[2011/09/13 16:22]  Ivy Sunkiller: my soul, if I have one, can be only bought with blood of unborn children
[2011/09/13 16:22]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Lem, well, we are hunter/gatherers, may have souls, have complex language, technological advantage, and tea is good. That sum it up?
[2011/09/13 16:22]  Elspeth Guyot: Elspeth Guyot is a Christian of sorts, and also not a member of any organised group
[2011/09/13 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah it gets worse. Next they grab this soul and force ‘me’ to go to some kind of celestial auschwitz. Like forever. Last thing one would want is a ‘soul’ if some recreational sodomy or stray antic with a scrotum will get me that deal.
[2011/09/13 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: gawd, not the atheism is a religion argument….. sigh Not believing is not a belief.
[2011/09/13 16:22]  Elspeth Guyot: LOL @ Khannea
[2011/09/13 16:22]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh, I don’t think that was really the point Wong was trying to make, Merc. It’s been a long time since I’ve read it, but I think it was more like, “Here is Dunbar’s number. This is why we seem to have less empathy for people who are only abstractions to us, and more empathy for people who have more reality to us. Also, monkeys! Yay monkeys!”
[2011/09/13 16:22]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Art, except atheists are just non-believers; they have beliefs of their own.
[2011/09/13 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: I think the point is, either way, it cannot be proved.
[2011/09/13 16:23]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): I keep seeing L45orientalrug under every argument
[2011/09/13 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: What beliefs?
[2011/09/13 16:23]  ArtCrash Exonar: The religious like to pretend that people who don’t believe as they do are some kind of organized group. It just isn’t even slightly true…..
[2011/09/13 16:23]  Ivy Sunkiller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUbjpwyesk0
[2011/09/13 16:23]  persela pet (persela): athiesm is still a group of people under one name, and they insist on wasting effort proveing there own belief is the correct one, xian, or athist, it is alwase a wast of effort
[2011/09/13 16:23]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): And it was raised to indicate human nature hadn’t changed in 60,000 years.
[2011/09/13 16:23]  Lem Skall: some atheists are organized
[2011/09/13 16:23]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Which related to humans vs. animals some way.
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Someone had better tie this thread specifically to my topic or I am calling Off topic.
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Like maybe we are animals because our nature hasn’t changed in 0,000 years
[2011/09/13 16:24]  persela pet (persela): gods if there are any, i have little concern for, i care about what people spend there time doing
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I just did, Extie
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Ivy Sunkiller: some religious people also blow up buildings with people inside
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): atheists unite to get the same financial benefits as those claiming to represent or serve gods (I dunno which is worse)
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: In the vagauest way possible, you did.
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): We hven’t changed in 0,000 years, because of Dunbar’s number as an indicator, and that means we are animals.
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): Are people who have no beliefs a group?
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Lem Skall: then I’ll ask again, at what point in evolution did we stop being animals?
[2011/09/13 16:24]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Well, I can’t make bricks without straw
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: we didn’t
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Lem Skall: IF we did stop being animals
[2011/09/13 16:25]  persela pet (persela): based on the earler conversation, i do not belive we have
[2011/09/13 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Science is not based on belief by the way, but evidence. AND, critically, there is never any position or idea that is firm and unchangeable from the point of view of the Scientist. This is the opposite of belief.
[2011/09/13 16:25]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): I thoughtwhat I’d do was, I’d pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. 🙂
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Lem Skall: are aliens animals?
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Ivy Sunkiller: persela: animals don’t teabag each other, or teavag
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: So can I conclude fropm all this hammering of spirutuality that the whole spiritual/religion meme is just this badge of humans saying “I AM MORE THANH ANIMAL HERE IS THE CERTIFICATE”? Kinda like this guy? http://daniwao.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/cowardly-lion.jpg
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Art, what coundt as evidence for science depends on presuppositions, themselves untestable.
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): I was in late, but in 1 min (i need to leave) what is the core of the argument that we would not be animals?
[2011/09/13 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh for pity’s sake, do I need to block Ivy now too? 😦
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Dunbar’s number is pretty squishy….but it makes sense that we’d care less about abstractions than people or things right in front of us.
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: That misunderstands evolution, Lem. With incremental change one cannot pinpoint when something stops and something else begins.
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Lem Skall: Solar, apparently we are too good to be animals
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: Solar: either a) none or b) we are between animals and angles, make your pick
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Solars, there wasn’t a core, but it turned on a soul, or a complicate language, some thought technology
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Rachael Darkrose: Not that I really want to really throw gasoline on the fire. But if we keep coming back to religion in this discussion, should we explore hte tangent of animalism?
[2011/09/13 16:26]  persela pet (persela): sciance is based on beleif, every time i take a course, i stumble on story after story of some sciantist who found something world changeing, and it took decades and there reputation before the rest of the enlighted sciantist found out
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Religion isn’t based on belief either, but ritual and practice….”belief” is a red herring, IMO
[2011/09/13 16:26]  Ivy Sunkiller: science is based on observation and testable theories, NOT belief
[2011/09/13 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: whatever you want to discuss you have 4 minutes in which to do it.
[2011/09/13 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Jay zobeid, the mere mention of Teabagging will turn all around you in to silent grey shadows. Smart move girl.
[2011/09/13 16:27]  Lem Skall: 3 minutes
[2011/09/13 16:27]  Elspeth Guyot: but we ARE animals
[2011/09/13 16:27]  Lem Skall: do we want NOT to be animals?
[2011/09/13 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: No, WE are not.
[2011/09/13 16:27]  persela pet (persela): accaptance of an idea still takes reevaluation of your curently held beleifs in sciance,
[2011/09/13 16:27]  Lem Skall: Extie, YOU are a concept
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem, I like that!
[2011/09/13 16:28]  persela pet (persela): read the bio’s of some nobel prize winners
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Tara Li (tarali.jie): Extie is a archetype!
[2011/09/13 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: appeal to authority
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I want to be a flower!
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: No. Extropia is more. Extropia is a Library *kiss*
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Mercurius Jacobus: Violet, by insisting that the lack of empathy is a fact of nature, as opposed to an artifact of the dog-eat-dog exploitative structure of our particular mode of society, he is asserting that everything wrong with global society is a fixed natural fact. All criticism or attempts to change it are unnatural and doomed to failure – that is conservative propaganda.
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Elspeth Guyot: I like the chance to be an animal, with the right partner.
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo Igot kissed by Khannea. And Zo missed it.
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Ivy Sunkiller: persela: yet there is a difference between believing in something because it’s true and believing in something because your parents did
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Lem Skall: Rawr
[2011/09/13 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmmmm! aside from intelligence, there is another feature that makes us distintive from animals.
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Oh right. Humor.
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): I must zap off for today, I’m sure the subject will be revisited, by silicon-based life forms
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Elspeth Guyot: animals have humour
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Lem Skall: other animals play jokes
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Elspeth Guyot: anhyone who has a pet knows that
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Solar Hydro (solarhydro.cleanslate): bye bye all
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Elspeth Guyot: bye Solar
[2011/09/13 16:29]  persela pet (persela): sciantists are still these creatures that we are not sure are human or animal, with all the same tendancys
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Bile, blood, sweat and urine?
[2011/09/13 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Just because you find it funny, does not mean the pet meant to be funny.
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Lem Skall: if god made is in his likeness, is he an animal too?
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Elspeth Guyot: but when they look at you and expect you to laugh?
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Lem Skall: nade us*
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Lem Skall: made us*
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Lem, he made us in his spiritual likeness
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: ‘Expect’?
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: persela: google up Storm by Tim Minchin, he will do way better job than me
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Jacen Helix: I must go for now, my partner is calling on me heh
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Elspeth Guyot: no
[2011/09/13 16:30]  ɖʊֆȶ աǟʟӄɛʀ (laborious.aftermath): The cosmic joke or the cosmic irony?
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Elspeth Guyot: God is not an animal
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Ivy Sunkiller: GOD IS A PLANT!
[2011/09/13 16:30]  Yummy (lat.lovenkraft): Then what is she?
[2011/09/13 16:30]  persela pet (persela): if there is a god…..he most likley has all the collective issues that all humans have
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Khannea Suntzu: Nakey, even though you speak nonsense about this whole god crap, I won’t block you. You are too sweet and funny.
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK summing up statements, if you please. We are more than animals because…….?
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Lem Skall: we are BETTER animals
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Jacen 🙂
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: look into the Bible
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: …of the technium
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: God shows up as a bloody bush in one revelation
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Merc, I don’t think he’s arguing against empathy; merely pointing out that it needs reality to work….we don’t empathize with abstractions. (Our society isn’t really well structured for providing that reality beyond a shallow level, either…)
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: he is a plant
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Ivy Sunkiller: or she
[2011/09/13 16:31]  Lem Skall: we have guns
[2011/09/13 16:32]  ℒeraje Ðamon χevious (leraje.xevious): I can’t give a summing statement that follows that because for me it hasn’t been proven that we are more than animals.
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Elspeth Guyot: God is much greater than anything we can conceive.
[2011/09/13 16:32]  persela pet (persela): persela pet thinks this utube vidio would be much more fun if i was not deaf……..
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Elspeth Guyot: So clearly not an animal, or a plant.
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Ivy, except that what counts as testable depends on the paradigm, and the paradigm is never subject to test, it only shifts when there’s internal contradictions.
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Lem Skall: god is conceived by us, how can he be greater?
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: persela: oh there is a version with text, I can find it
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: I don’t care if I am better than an animal or not. Like who will make this judgement? Humans are supposed to make transcendental and existential evaluations about humans. Sounds kinda like a nonvalid evaluation to me.
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Elspeth Guyot: if you believe that theen you are stuck, Lem.
[2011/09/13 16:32]  persela pet (persela): i found lyrics
[2011/09/13 16:32]  Mercurius Jacobus: “They begin with God, either as a person or as divine substance or idea, and the first step that they take is a terrible fall from the sublime heights of the eternal ideal into the mire of the material world; from absolute perfection into absolute imperfection; from thought to being, or rather, from supreme being to nothing. When, how, and why the divine being, eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect, probably weary of himself, decided upon this desperate salto mortale is something which no idealist, no theologian, no metaphysician, no poet, has ever been able to understand himself or explain to the profane. All religions, past and present, and all the systems of transcendental philosophy hinge on this unique and iniquitous mystery. “
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: but yes, it’s sort of melodic
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Lem Skall: Elspeth, you’re stuck with me too, you just don’t know it
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Elspeth Guyot: Oh I am, and I know,.
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Lem, well, turn that on its head and you have an argument that the concept of God originates in him, not with us. One person’s modus ponens is another’s modus tolens
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: OK this discussio is closed!
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Lem Skall: modus whatens?
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: btw, science can actually cure deafness these days
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: depends how you got yours
[2011/09/13 16:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Khannea Suntzu sings to Extropia ” Clowns to the lft, Jokers to the right, HERE I am stuck in the middle with you!”
[2011/09/13 16:34]  Elspeth Guyot: Thanks Extropia!
[2011/09/13 16:34]  Lem Skall: thx Extie
[2011/09/13 16:34]  Rachael Darkrose: Ciao, all, I must shuffle from this mortal coil that is SL, at least for now . . .
[2011/09/13 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: SOCIAL NETWORK/HUMAN RIGHTS…
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One Response to THINKERS SEP 13 2011: ANIMALISM

  1. Arch says:

    I apologize for answering this after only reading the first few lines…..the apology goes to format, not content….in response, we are and have been so far animals, what is different so far is for us to see the consequences of our actions,,,

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