Mook at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/09/06 15:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn grins @ Rhi
[2011/09/06 15:31]  Scarp Godenot: By the way Firestorm is out with their Mesh viewer today….
[2011/09/06 15:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Most mesh clothes require you to wear an alpha layer to hide that part of your body, so it doesn’t poke through the mesh. I shall demonstate. . .
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Scarp, that’s great.
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today the discussion is all about mesh and a comment someone left on Prok’s blog, which was….
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: I was looking at their site earlier Scarp, I didn’t see anything about that.
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: “Apparently, ‘Your world, your imagination’ now only applies if you are a graphic artist with access to thousands of RL dollars worth of software or an Open-Sourcer that can figure out the arcane use of Blender. But I guess its in LL’s best interest to jettison the rest of us in favor of their artist pals”.
 That is Macklin Deckard’s summary of what mesh has brought to SL. But have we really taken a step toward an SL that favours “artist pals” while denying creative freedom to others?
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Leia Chase: Zobeid, yours looks perfectly transparent to me. I can see the couch cushions and all
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Scarp Godenot: Just got a tweet from Phaylen Fairchild about it
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma takes off the alpha layer. . .
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Leia Chase: ok, now it looks like a lavender tank top
[2011/09/06 15:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, I see the problem without the alpha layer 😀
[2011/09/06 15:33]  Leia Chase: which is much less disturbing than invisible man impersonation
[2011/09/06 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: And Gwyn sees my tummy and my boob poking through the shirt. 😛
[2011/09/06 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2011/09/06 15:33]  persela pet (persela): so what is wrong with learning blender?
[2011/09/06 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not for the faint of heart 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:33]  Ivy Sunkiller: people who are “upset” about mesh being released are either elaborate trolls or people knowing they will lose income since the stuff won’t be able to compete as well as it used to
[2011/09/06 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: too hard, aparrently.
[2011/09/06 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But SketchUp is easy!
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: I don’t know what’s hard about Blender, took me one evening to get a grip of it with a tutorial on youtube
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: OK, here’s one huge hole in Deckard’s complaint. . . . . He should have reached that conclusion when sculpties came out. Because mesh is actually easier to work with than sculpties. So what’s the problem?
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Leia Chase: pers, when I got to SL, I wasprettyexcite about the idea of tools I could use within SL to build stuff in SL. Using tools I had to acquire and work externally and import just fails to appeal.
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Ivy, but your’e a genius, we know that 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: so, either I’m a bloody genius, which is quite possible
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Ivy Sunkiller: ha!
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Scarp Godenot: There is a huge problem with mesh in SL now and that is the ridiculously high Prim equivalents they are chargning to use it.
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, you’ve reed for me, Zoe, and you look great. But you took the mesh off?
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo is right!
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Personally, I found prims too hard. At least,I could never make designes as good as the best designers in SL. I figured my talents must lie elsewhere:)
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same here, Extie
[2011/09/06 15:34]  Zobeid Zuma: I took the alpha layer off. I’m still wearing the mesh object.
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I want the best designers to get better 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Would an analogy help?
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hobbyists won’t “get better” because of technology… that’s silly
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Leia Chase: It would at least be entertaining!
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Stora
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Stora Rhodes: Hi
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: so from my POV it would actually be an advantage of SL favoured only the best artists and the most adept programmers. Make my world look lovely without amatuers and their ugly builds!
[2011/09/06 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Building with prims is like programming with BASIC (or for the younger geeks, HTML or maybe Python). Mesh is like learning to handle your C (or C++) compiler.
[2011/09/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Now THAT’s an old account, Stora 🙂 )
[2011/09/06 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haah Zo
[2011/09/06 15:36]  Stora Rhodes: 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: hey! I’m coding in Python!
[2011/09/06 15:36]  Leia Chase: My biggest problem with the claim is that the better technology gets in the way of clever use of the other stuff. If one wished to be creative, one still can. One merely cannot derive income from it, unless one is really virtuoso at it.
[2011/09/06 15:36]  Leia Chase: But a hobbyist can still enjoy the hobby and the creativity of the process. It’s not like building stopped working. Did it?
[2011/09/06 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: building in prims is more like LSL – limited and pain in the ass
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: Python might be easy, ut it’s very elaborate and expressive 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve always been skeptical of the whole idea of for-profit business in SL anyhow. :/
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: but*
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let’s take the reverse analogy. Suppose that you’d take now all computers out of professional authors, and tell them: “you have to write on typewriters, to giove amateus a chance to write books as good as you”
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Mook (mook.wheeler): do you need to buy expensive software for mesh, or is there open-source stuff available?
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Ivy Sunkiller: there is open source
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Scarp Godenot: Btw, sculpties and prims aren’t going to be replaced by mesh objects. And LL assured that by making mesh objects the equivalent of large numbers of prims.
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mook: SketchUp, Blender…
[2011/09/06 15:37]  Zobeid Zuma: Neil Gaiman writes his novels with a fountain pen, Gwyn. 😛
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: An electronic fountain pen 😉
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: No, it’s a Lamy 2000. I’m a fountain pen collector, I know these things. 😀
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah except the word processor actually makes writing easier, what with its flexible editing tools. So the comparison does not work.
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Mook (mook.wheeler): cheers. As you can tell, I know nothing about mesh…
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nevertheless, that’s irrelevant, Zo hehe — the point is, good prim builders will continue to build nicely 😉
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Scarp Godenot: Why do you need to know something to talk about it? haha
[2011/09/06 15:38]  persela pet (persela): persela pet considers
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Violet!
[2011/09/06 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Viotari
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: from the point of view of someone who NEVER saw a computer, I can guarantee that a typewriter is FAR easier to use!
[2011/09/06 15:39]  persela pet (persela): Is it possable to request opensorce tools be imported directly into sl?
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What’s a typewriter?
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: …makes sense, Gwyn, if that is what you are used to.
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No power button! No applications to load! Just put some paper and type 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rhi
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: I personally think that prim building will continue to be a nice gentle introduction to 3D construction, and it’ll continue to be useful for people who don’t want to get deep into 3D modelling.
[2011/09/06 15:39]  persela pet (persela): crash proof word processer
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It does stand out more with Mesh.
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: persela: I don’t see that happening, and don’t really see a need for it to begin with
[2011/09/06 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: So we’re not going to jettison that. But expanding what can be done at the top end, for people who’ve dedicated the time and developed the skills, is great.
[2011/09/06 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that ultimately it comes down to the usual argument: people fear change.
[2011/09/06 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: And yes, you can create mesh with Blender, which is free. I’ve heard it’s not the greatest software in the world. . . But it’s serviceable.
[2011/09/06 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that’s deeply rooted in human nature.
[2011/09/06 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: +1 Gwyn
[2011/09/06 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I create meshes in Photoshop…. 😉
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: There are always people fearful of change, no matter the potential benefits.
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Zo
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’ve heard that it will be easier to customize your avatar from your RL picture with Mesh
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But my customizer doesn’t do mesh
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: I believe I saw a post on G+ today stating that people not only fear change, people fear creativity 😀
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Leia Chase: I get headaches in photoshop.
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh sure, use a 3D scanner to capture your body, and upload it as a mesh… should work fine
[2011/09/06 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: But I see prims as like legos. Anyone can do something basic but few are true master legos builders. But Mesh…can anyone do it? Or do you have to learn how?
[2011/09/06 15:42]  Scarp Godenot: When SL was new, people could get away with selling poorly made things. That is no longer true. Many o many a store has gone under because they couldn’t make the higher end stuff over the years.
[2011/09/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Extie… I would say that the difference with meshes is that there are a *gazillion* tools out there.
[2011/09/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: While prims… you have to learn THIS interface.
[2011/09/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you have really a lot of choice.
[2011/09/06 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: prims… there is just one choice: “do it in SL”
[2011/09/06 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: Prims are like legos, tinkertoys and an erector set all put together. Mesh is no substitute for them, and I’m glad they aren’t going way.
[2011/09/06 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some3D tools are easy, some are for amateurs, some ar for pros, some require the brains of Ivy. But there is a lot, really a lot of choice.
[2011/09/06 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: I mean if you gave me blender could I make it work right away, or would I not be able to do anything because I have to be taught? Nobody told me how to work with prims. It was just intuitive. Not that I was great, but I could have a go…
[2011/09/06 15:43]  Leia Chase: Gwyn, which I thought was one of the coolest things about SL – that there was its own interface to learn, and no dependence on prior skill set (such as photoshop, which is as far as I’m concerned of the devil)
[2011/09/06 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller imagines people hunting her brains like zombies
[2011/09/06 15:43]  Mook (mook.wheeler): good question, Extropia. I would love to know the answer to that too
[2011/09/06 15:43]  Scarp Godenot: Blender requires an interface learning curve and a counter intuitive thinking about what is what…. .heh
[2011/09/06 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Leia, depends on what you mean by that 🙂 “No dependence on prior skill set” for what? For having fun? 🙂 Look, I still don’t know how to glue prims together, and that never stopped me from having fun in SL…
[2011/09/06 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I think it’s great that we’ll cover the spectrum, and have tools for both beginners and pros. Who can really complain about that? Seriously?
[2011/09/06 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Extie, I disagree about the use of “Intiutive”.:)
[2011/09/06 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: Blneder is absolutely *not* intuitivie, so changes you figure it out all by yourself in any reasonable amount of time is slim. *However* since it’s free, there is *lots* of tutorials on the net (and really, youtube ones do the trick :))
[2011/09/06 15:44]  Ivy Sunkiller: changes=chances
[2011/09/06 15:45]  Leia Chase: Gwyn, in my case, “for making items I was not ashamed to show off in public”.
[2011/09/06 15:45]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, I’ve never done prims, I rez maybe an object for a postor or to place my airship on when Izoom it up; I never have time to learn building stuff.
[2011/09/06 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, Leia, so perhaps this was intuitive for you. But not for people like me, who have no skills whatsoever
[2011/09/06 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: presumably the builders working with prims outnumber those using mesh. Is that an advantage for prims and will it keep that advantage?
[2011/09/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: in SL, perhaps
[2011/09/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the real world it’s more like 100,000:1 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: SL is all that matters. It is my home.
[2011/09/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh 100,000 mesg designers to 1 prim user
[2011/09/06 15:46]  Leia Chase: Gwyn – I’m entirely awful at graphics work of most kinds. SL building was sufficiently WYSIWYG that I built myself a house and a jewelry collection and assorted random other stuff.
[2011/09/06 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m happy for you, leia! See, at least LL got the tools right for some!
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW. . . I did give Firestorm another try, and it’s working *much* better than Viewer 3 for me — except for not being able to see mesh. But I’m jumping ship to Firestorm ASAP.
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: Leia: nothing changes for you though, does it? 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Leia Chase: Gwyn – I”d never be a merchant, but I was thrilled that my total ineptness at 3d modeling _and_ graphical design did not get in my way of being able to do stuff
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now they’ve just *expanded* the tools
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Should be sort of embarrassing for LL reallyl.
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Scarp Godenot: Did anyone notice when I mentioned the Prim Equivalency thing? Linden Lab has mucked that up badly. This will make adoption of mesh for anything but avatar attachments and small home items not happen quickly.
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Leia Chase: Ivy, what changes for me is that there’s more stuff my poor aged computer can’t see properly 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well,the good news is that prims are not going away
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Meshes are lighter than prims!
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, Scarpt said that mesh compatible Firestorm is now out today.
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Right, Leia. I made an R2D2 once. Just some prims put together. Looked shit, but I could do it. Sounds like I would never be able to do that with mesh. Not unless I was determined to learn how.
[2011/09/06 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: Leia: it’s just software that needs upgrades, not hardware 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I couldn’t find V. 3, but now I won’t look for it.
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I spoke with one sim owner who was *very* upset about mesh and was making plans to leave SL and go to OSGrid.
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Leia Chase: Ivy, I’ve found upgrading the software more or less guarantees that I can’t even rez without upgrading the hardware to go with it.
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: hardware can be tricky, but mesh shouldn’t be slower than prims and sculpites, if not *faster*
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Where messhes will be introduced as well* That is ridiculous.
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Ivy Sunkiller: ouch!
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Isn’t that something that happens with every major update…?
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I tried reasoning with her, but her mind was made up and she only got mad at me. 😦
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: OpenSim also supports meshes; some have supported it for months before LL
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Ok.
[2011/09/06 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah but they say that when LL introduce *anything*, Zo. the builders and scripoters of Sl are a precious lot:)
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): :p
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I have found very conseravtative peoplein SL
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: Zo: I really find people like that funny 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha… I wonder what will happen when we’re allowed to write scripts in C#…
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m sure there will be a lot of drama.
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh yeah. . . Scultpies were the end of the world, and voice chat was the end of the world, and flexy prims were the end of the world, and banning gambling was the end of the world. . . .
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There are people who won’t believe I’m me, because I’m only two years old; they are sure I’m an alt of an older avatar.
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: This world ended more times than Lady Gaga changes outfits!
[2011/09/06 15:49]  Ivy Sunkiller: You kids with your computers, back in the day we did virtual worlds in the corn fields on the country side and we liked it that way!
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): haha, Ivy
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles* @ Ivy
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: not flexi prims! Remember when hair was like this plastic stuck on your head? THank god for flexi hair!
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Leia Chase: Ivy, and those were certainly prim-only corn fields
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, Ivy, Wiiccan still do it that way.
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Leia: worse, they ware ANALOG!
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): there still are corn fields
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): 4 sims
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: were*
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller shoots typist
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some don’t even need corn fields and just do it in their minds 😉
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Not to mention those D&D people who went to the catecombs under universities to do it
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: hello TR
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: C#? Isn’t that a Microsoft thing? (makes a sign to ward off ebil!)
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo
[2011/09/06 15:50]  Mook (mook.wheeler): Extropia—-I still have that plastic hair lol 😉
[2011/09/06 15:51]  TR Amat: Hi
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Mook (mook.wheeler): it does not move….much
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The new EVil is Google anyway, Zo 🙂 MS is almost an innocent lamb these days.
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: No, I don’t believe it.
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: wait what, who mentioned C#? are they pushing it forward *at last*?
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: hey if you like it, Mook, that is all that matters:)
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, Google has always been evil, ask the Chinese
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Leia Chase: Hear hear, Gwyn 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Jizz (lucca.seid): what is evil about google these days?
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: no no no we are not going to talk about Google!
[2011/09/06 15:51]  Ivy Sunkiller: Google+ is what’s evil about google
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Leia Chase: Lucca, have you not been following the name G+ fiasco?
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: nym wars!
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Jizz (lucca.seid): i found a little loophole to change names more than once a month in g+ :3
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Google is like. . . Wal-Mart. Or Sony. Or Exxon. or Apple. . . They’re amoral, with no sense of right or wrong. Microsoft is in a different class, they’ll even hurt themselves for a chance to hurt somebody else.
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: that is next week’s discussion!
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Jizz, it won’t let me joing Google plus, even with my real life info. They said my boobs are too small.
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Mook (mook.wheeler): lol…. just too lazy to look for new hair….especially the type which blows around like a gale even though there’s no wind…
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And that I should lose ten pounds.
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Leia Chase: zobeid, no corp makes its business of hurting people. that may be a side effect, but it doesn’t pay for it to be the goal
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: I’m a regular #nymwars poster on twitter…..
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: No. Discussinf. Google. Off topic!
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Gwyn!
[2011/09/06 15:52]  Scarp Godenot: haha
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Ivy, haha!
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Jizz (lucca.seid): Jizz blinks 4 times
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *SL* is evil.
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): No, wait that was my seccond to last interview at a club.
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Jizz (lucca.seid): @.@
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: But that’s exactly what Microsoft does, Leia. That’s why their freakish. . . a freakish monster among businesses.
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: It is next week’s topic so save your anger over Google+ for then;)
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Scarp Godenot: Two words that we need to discuss PRIM EQUIVALENTS
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: OK…dicuss, Scarp.
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: *discuss.Grr!
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW, the reason why I crash here so much is that there are far too many prims around; I’m hoping Scarp replaces everything with meshes soon 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Leia Chase: Zobeid, I don’t buy it.
[2011/09/06 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah. . . I’ve heard a little about prim equivalence, but I don’t know how it’s calculated.
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: ha! I don’t actually know what the prim equivalent ratio is, how do they do it, polygon / n = prims?
[2011/09/06 15:54]  TR Amat: Medusa hair that eats small things flying too close? 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, that could explain why things are slow for me and there are so many grey people
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve watched them for many many years, Leai, and I’ve seen it over and over. There’s no question in my mind. Evil is deeply embedded in their corporate culture.
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I feel like I’m at a meeting of AARP
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Scarp Godenot: The Lab has screwed up the way they calculate how many prims a mesh is. This will make mesh adoption happen only in the avatar attachment area to start with. The other stuff requires far too many prims.
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like everything LL-related, it’s an incredibly complex formula.
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: Anonymous Afternight RolePlayers?
[2011/09/06 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, lol
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): How did you know?
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Leia, Zo hates MS like dogs in ‘Up’ hate squirrels. And that is just the way it is. You xcannot change her mind:)
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: If you work at Microsoft, the way you impress the management is by figuring out ways to rip someone off: customers, competitors, suppliers, governments, anybody.
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Ivy Sunkiller: I used to play D&D, via skype, with people on another side of the planet…
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: so anyway…..mesh…
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Zobeid Zuma: Even other divisions of Microsoft. (Maybe *especially* other divisions of Microsoft.)
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh cool! When I played D&D, the Zilog Z80 was the most common CPU on the planet 😉
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Skype, pfft
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Modern niceties 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn you are so geeky.
[2011/09/06 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Szery!
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Leia Chase: Zobeid, matter of fact I know actual (current and former) MS employees, and that’s actually not so. In fact, the amount of effort they spend on non-evil pursuits (such as accessibility) is impressive – but you’d only know about it if you needed the features, or were an accessibility geek.
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have my days… it’s my diet
[2011/09/06 15:56]  TR Amat: The original write-up of prim equivalence said they expected to tinker with the formulae for a bit before they got it right…
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: oh believe me, there was nothing nice about it, it lagged like shit 😀
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Szeryl23SC: Hello;)
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahaah Ivy
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Szeryl23SC: Rhiannon from rlc?
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Gosh. Zo meets her nemesis.
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Your words cannot counter my decades of experience and Microsoft-watching. 😛
[2011/09/06 15:56]  Scarp Godenot: Well TR, they seem to be very firm in their formulas now and they are ridiculously high.
[2011/09/06 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ironically, Scarp, I think that the builders that *finally* will start using 3D modelling tools will be so disappointed about the huge amount of prim equivalents they will need that they will all revert to… sculpties
[2011/09/06 15:57]  TR Amat: I still play D&D on occasion. 🙂 I think some of my older characters are 35+ (RL) yrs now… 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: really Zo you are worse than them 9/11 conspirators:)
[2011/09/06 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: They’re also crummy programmers — although they seem to have finally met their match, in the form of Linden Labs. 😀
[2011/09/06 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 9/11? That terrorist attack that was perpetuated after having the terrorists trained on MICROSOFT SIMULATOR? Right….
[2011/09/06 15:57]  Scarp Godenot: Did you know that a 20 prim object that is 3 meters tall becomes a 150 prim object if you make it 30 meters tall?
[2011/09/06 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *flight
[2011/09/06 15:57]  Ivy Sunkiller: back when I was in Paris this summer, we noticed what we thought is a google car on the street
[2011/09/06 15:58]  TR Amat: These days most games I play, around a tabletop, are Hero System (v4 or v5) based…
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm Scarp. I didn’t know that the prim equivalkent changed with the size, I thought it was fixed when you uploaded it
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: one guy from our gang run forward to make sure he gets onto some shots
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Mook (mook.wheeler): Mook grins at Extropia and her dying dream of talking mesh stuff….
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Ivy Sunkiller: he came back with head hung and said “it was BING!”
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Szeryl23SC: how you can earn L $
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Leia Chase: Zo, my apologies, I shall stop trying to disrupt your perceptions with mere facts 🙂
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Scarp Godenot: Gwyn, this is what I’m trying to tell all of you here. This is screwed up.
[2011/09/06 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: MS did at least one thing right. Xbox Live is a lesson in how to create a plug-and-play online gaming service that just does what it is meant to do. Seriously, you would *love* SL to run as smooth as Xbox Live does.
[2011/09/06 15:59]  TR Amat: The mesh stuff looks interesting, but, seeing as this is viewer 1.23…
[2011/09/06 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: But then consoles always were better than PCs at delivering solid, stable experiences.
[2011/09/06 15:59]  Scarp Godenot: This is THE issue that will make mesh adoption slow. The Prim Equivalency calculations and how they change with size.
[2011/09/06 15:59]  Stora Rhodes: the larger an object the more people will be able to see it. Makes sense
[2011/09/06 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: they change with size?:o
[2011/09/06 15:59]  Ivy Sunkiller: as in volume?
[2011/09/06 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: I did not know that it changed with size. That’s peculiar.
[2011/09/06 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh, are we back on mesh? Not on topic, surely?
[2011/09/06 16:00]  Scarp Godenot: It makes no sense because it takes no more computer resources to rez an object of different size with the same number of polygons.
[2011/09/06 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Arachin
[2011/09/06 16:00]  Arachn Griffith: Hi there Rhia
[2011/09/06 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, that does seem counter-intuitive.
[2011/09/06 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, it can take more computing power to do collision detection on bigger objects I can imagine, but still…
[2011/09/06 16:01]  TR Amat: I was told by a couple on people not into SL that they would consider it if meshes arrived, and they could import stuff from their favourite CAD system…
[2011/09/06 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: Ivy Sunkiller scratches head
[2011/09/06 16:01]  TR Amat: couple of*
[2011/09/06 16:01]  Scarp Godenot: The math is the same Ivy. Just a different calculation number.
[2011/09/06 16:01]  Ivy Sunkiller: wb Gwyn!
[2011/09/06 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t see Gwyn
[2011/09/06 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, there she comes
[2011/09/06 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): wb, Gwyn
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: not necessarily, a bigger object can collide with more avatars at once thus using more server resources
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Scarp Godenot: Another stupid thing they require is to make all meshes uploaded as physical.
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Ivy Sunkiller: that’s *if* your mesh actually has any collision detection
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If SL doesn’t crash, my router crashes;: I’m surrounded by entropy!
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Really Gwyn, you should stop crashing. You are one of Sl’s most beloved residens and what impression does it give LL if *you* keep crashing?
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Scarp Godenot: How much of sl is physical. A tiny tiny tiny portion.
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe I hope they get all my reports!
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meshes have to be set physical!?
[2011/09/06 16:02]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m waiting for her to rezz (again)
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: Physical? What’s up with that?
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Arachn Griffith: so if we’d start making everything phys the servers would blow?
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There–her hair and jeans, shoes; top still not there
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh oh .) lol
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: they got a Bluegenbe/L just to handle all that data, Gwynie!
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Arachn Griffith: that’s worse than a router
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Scarp Godenot: Arachn, if everything in the area we are in was physical, the lagg would be great.
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Arachn Griffith: lol scarp
[2011/09/06 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: well, it is.
[2011/09/06 16:04]  TR Amat: My walk-about avatar is so simple I’m told it can’t always be told from Ruth. 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): “Let’s get physical, physical…I want to get physical, physical. Let me here your mesh-ody talk, your mesh body talk…”
[2011/09/06 16:04]  Ivy Sunkiller: sim fps is looking solid atm 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: After the long, *long* period of testing that mesh went through, you’d imagine they’d figure things out. . .
[2011/09/06 16:04]  Stora Rhodes: I just wish all the clothes would rez, I’m having to cover avatars up with my chat window :-0
[2011/09/06 16:04]  TR Amat: It’s just those ornrey pixels – they wont cooperate. 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Not everyone is wearing clothes. 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Ivy Sunkiller: Stora: that’s not a bug, that’s just Rhi being naked
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn tries to rez a mesh
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: did the introducsion of mesh really warrent a viewer 3? I mean, is it really such an advance?
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: I think it’s just a convenient label, Extie.
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Scarp Godenot: I’ve been asking around to the techies I know, and the consensus is that Linden Lab wants to reduce the resource usage of the entire grid by overcharging the prim equivalents of mesh, thus reducing objects in any given sims.
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Zo
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Arachn Griffith: hm
[2011/09/06 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmmmm Scarp
[2011/09/06 16:06]  Arachn Griffith: that overgoes my stoned associating brains
[2011/09/06 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extie: Mozilla upgraded Firefox from version 5 to 6 after they added websockets, which was already in Firefox 4 but disabled. So yeah, versioning is getting crazy these days 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it would also mean that some people would need to tier up
[2011/09/06 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, from what I can see, it’s not that much different, but it is striking
[2011/09/06 16:06]  Ivy Sunkiller: well, they changed implementation from hixie to hybi-07, but still!
[2011/09/06 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Like, when I heard there was a viewer 3 I was thinking ‘oh cool, a totally new viewer, fixing the problems of the old one. But it is *precisely* the same. But with mesh.
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Arachn Griffith: rofl
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Arachn Griffith: use singularity viewer?
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Arachn Griffith: less lagg
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, kind of disappointing when you look at it that way.
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Arachn Griffith: more useful bandwith use
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: never heard of it.
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Arachn Griffith: I’m using it right now
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: And inventory management is still just as crude and awkward as it has been since I joined SL.
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ivy, I’m not naked, I’m nude.
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Arachn Griffith: looks a lot like the first viewer of sl
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Arachn Griffith: so it’s intuitive
[2011/09/06 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: And I don’t know anybody who is working on fixing it.
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, at least it now sorts by date again 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Scarp Godenot: And example of non adoption of mesh: Who would buy a tall mesh tree that was 100 prims when a sculptie tree has 2 prims?
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): ARachin, how does it compare with Firestorm? Singularity, that is
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: in other words, you are naked
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Arachn Griffith: I used firestorm
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, point taken, Scarp
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Arachn Griffith: singularity is better
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Arachn Griffith: more options
[2011/09/06 16:08]  Arachn Griffith: more freedom
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Arachn Griffith: and still a lot like firestorm or the old sl viewer
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: now that I am usef to V2 the older one will probably confuse me. “god where is this, where did that put that, why did they change the other’ you know, like we all were when we first trued V2!
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes,
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Arachn Griffith: lol
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Arachn Griffith: yh
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Arachn Griffith: I still have those issues
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve never heard of that viewer before.
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma googles. . .
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Leia Chase: Extro, I tried V2 about 2 weeks ago. I’m still all “where’d they put things”
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s like turning back to Windows XP after working a lot with Windows 7 🙂 Sure, it’s better, and faster, but…. naah
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: Haha! I have to laugh at their home page. 😀
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: It is actually good once you get used to its layout and stuff.
[2011/09/06 16:09]  Ivy Sunkiller: I never migrated to the abomination of UI that V2 is
[2011/09/06 16:10]  Ivy Sunkiller: just waited for Firestorm to roll out to get all the features with V1-alike UI 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:10]  Leia Chase: Extro, there’s 3 things I dislike for every thing I like about it
[2011/09/06 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: They want to reclaim “the beloved look and feel of Viewer 1.23”, despite it being a user interface nightmare. 😛
[2011/09/06 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt if you want to use mesh you have to use viewer 2. Or 3, which is the same thing.
[2011/09/06 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I like Windows 7; it was Vista that drove me cray.
[2011/09/06 16:11]  Scarp Godenot: I saw the viewer 2/3 freight train coming down the tracks at us 1.5 years ago and switched to it then. Now it is seamless for me…..
[2011/09/06 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaning that V1 is not an abomination? 🙂 Look, guys, I’ve been present on discussions where V1 was given as an example of what students of interface design should NEVER do. Granted, V2 is only marginally better, but V1 is not good. You’re just *used* to it 😀
[2011/09/06 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Exactly, Gwen.
[2011/09/06 16:11]  Ivy Sunkiller: Gwyn: it might be an abomination, but an abomination I got *used to* 😀
[2011/09/06 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Maybe someday we’ll see a viewer with a good UI, but I’m not sure if I’ll live that long.
[2011/09/06 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Rhiannon of the Birds watches as the discussion degerates into “my viewer is better than your viewerl.”
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Uhuh, the test would be to give some complete noobs Sl running Viewer 1. and others using 2, and see who masters the basics first.
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Arachn Griffith: lol Gwyn on the Windows 7 comment
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Arachn Griffith: I reread, okay
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Arachn Griffith: <.<.
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Arachn Griffith: >.>
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right! This reminds me of an old saying, “Given a choice, people would prefer hell over heaven, since at least they’re *used* to suffering. It’s painful, yes, but it’s something we’re comfortable with. heaven is… too scary”
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: BTW, the latest Firestorm that I got has pie-slice menus. WTF? I thought we’d driven a stake through the heart of that misfeature.
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Jizz (lucca.seid): singularity viewer runs pretty well on osx D:
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Jizz (lucca.seid): Jizz grins
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh come on, Heaven is so boring by design
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See…. like V3 :;D
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): What’s a pie slice menue, Zoe?
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Ivy Sunkiller: 😀
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Leia Chase: I’ll take hell, if it has an intuitive UI, over heaven with a steep learning curve, dammit.
[2011/09/06 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I remember pie slice menues in SL! Back in 2006 I think.
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, Leia, you just agree with me 😉
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Those round contextual menus when you right-click something or somebody.
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Leia Chase: Gwyn, I’m sure I’ve agreed with you before
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yes
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, I thought all viewers had those
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and vice-versa!
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Leia Chase: I LOVE those round contextual menus. They are FAST
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah, Leia. That time when Gwyn said ‘Extie you are a genius…”
[2011/09/06 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): They allow you to ban or eject really fast
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Arachn Griffith: Arisia just told me that old viewers won’t work in the near future?
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: They’re slow! If there’s more than a few options they won’t all fit in one circle, so you have to keep clicking “next. . .” until you find them.
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: No he did not! Arisia never speaks!
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, LL has been saying that for a year now, Arachn
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Leia Chase: No doubt, Extro 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Scarp Godenot: Well arachn, there comes a point where you can’t repair the Model T ford anymore.
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Mook (mook.wheeler): good test— have to be large groups though, to flatten out all the individual literacies or illiteracies
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: pie charts also allow you to remove half of your sim really fast with a single missclick!
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Ivy Sunkiller: pie menus*
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe scarp… or my 1997 Ford
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Arachn Griffith: I’m still using a windows xp… google chrome and nvidia videocard… it does the job really
[2011/09/06 16:14]  Arachn Griffith: Scarp, rofl
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Arachn Griffith: that covers it pretty much I guess
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why do we have prims anyway? Sl would be so much faster without avatars, prims…
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Scarp Godenot: I’m on XP, mostly because I’m a cheapskate…. heh
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: Actually, Scarp. Kevin Kelly argued that such a time never comes.
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we would just post a few images on a MUD and that’s all
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Leia Chase: Gwyn, totally – and they’d call it IRC 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Arachn Griffith: it’s easier and logic in scripting to have prims for identification
[2011/09/06 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Funny you should mention that, Gwyn. Text-based mucks are indeed very fast.
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They are indeed!
[2011/09/06 16:16]  TR Amat: We should just be banging the ASCII characters together, in a command window that is 80 columns and 24 lines. 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No lag and little crashing 😉
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Scarp Godenot: Extie, there comes a time when repairing becomes rebuilding
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Anybody want to go back to the days of ANSI text worlds?
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: YES, TR!
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, SL without avatars is like Formual one without cars.
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Arachn Griffith: rofl scarp, 300 euro, brand new comp screwed together, why would you invest in more
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Leia Chase: TR, I actually still do my email that way.
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia: that’s called the Olympic Games 🙂 They’re still fun to watch! people racing each other without cars!
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Extropia DaSilva: …yes, Scarp. I see your point:)
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Leia Chase: Zobeid, ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI 😛
[2011/09/06 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma points –>
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahahaah Leia!!!!!!
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: I think you should get that, Rhi!
[2011/09/06 16:17]  lol Leia
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah but it is a different sport. SL without avatars is not SL.
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Kaiden!
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: eeek. not that avatar again, Zo… 😛
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: Zobeid Zuma gets ready to duck. . .
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Arachn Griffith: it should be made more open
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn throws something heavy at Zo…. “oh it was 1 1560-PE mesh”
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: Heya Kaiden. Funky hair! I like it.
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Arachn Griffith: the possibility for an avatar
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Arachn Griffith: but also different ways of accessing second life
[2011/09/06 16:17]  Scarp Godenot: The bottom line about today’s topic is that you can still make GREAT things with prims and this will not go away any time soon.
[2011/09/06 16:18]  TR Amat: All VW should only exist in people’s heads, and using the postal system. 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Kaiden Blake (kaiden.denja): HI there 🙂 How are all you beautiful people doing tonight?
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: Oo are we back on topic?
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Barely!
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: I am OK.
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And hiya, Kaiden 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:18]  TR Amat: Another fine mesh you have got me into? 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Ivy Sunkiller: Scarp: it will go away when all the prim making nubs die out!
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh that will take a long time
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also,
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe, I should get what?
[2011/09/06 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can do prims using meshes hehe
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: That. . . thing I pointed to. . .
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Scarp Godenot: Prims are actual mathematically created meshes….. so they are mesh.
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Scarp!
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Arachn Griffith: but not arythmic meshes :p
[2011/09/06 16:19]  TR Amat: I clicked, and it says I’m not Adult enough to view it. 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So if LL one day really gets rid of meshes, people will sell prim sets on the Marketplace.
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Arachn Griffith: lol TR
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha TR!
[2011/09/06 16:19]  Arachn Griffith: woah Gwyn
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Arachn Griffith: deep
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: New Mesh Figure and Clothing available, please stop by Wet N Wild inworld to see Demo. Must have the newest Second Life viewer to see mesh. More to come.
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gwyneth Llewelyn wonders how many PEs one prim cube will take
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, everyone seeZobeid?
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Ivy Sunkiller: Wet N Wild! Rhi will need a new group title!
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Arachn Griffith: I think someone will start a new metaverse
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: SL should be like Scribblenauts! You know, that Nintendo Ds game where you type in anything (like ‘helicopter’ for example) and it just appears, ready to use?
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Arachn Griffith: when that time comes
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Scarp Godenot: I think that the investment in SL goods is so huge in prim created objects that they will NEVER not support them.
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh amazing avatar, Zo!
[2011/09/06 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): She looks like a humongous avocado
[2011/09/06 16:21]  TR Amat: A torus with indigestion?
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: If you don’t have a mesh viewer, I probably look like. . . a pudding or something. :/
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Olive, I mean
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You look like an olive, Zoe
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Leia Chase: A brown donut, so far
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a V1 viewer which does meshes btw… it has a catching name starting with A which I have forgotten 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): An enormous olive
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I have a mesh viewer. You look lovely, Zo. I mean, really.
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Kind of a….barrel?
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Mook (mook.wheeler): a giant brown bead
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, then it isn’t that catching
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: well, now you look like someweird alien thing.
[2011/09/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But there is one…. Inara Pey covered it on her blog
[2011/09/06 16:22]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): New Game! Interpretive Meshing.
[2011/09/06 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: who?
[2011/09/06 16:22]  Leia Chase: A brown olive with tribal tattoos
[2011/09/06 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Inara Pey — currently., she’s probably my best source for news on SL
[2011/09/06 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: This is what’s most interesting to me. . . Being able to create some av types that wouldn’t really work with the old system.
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: So I assume mesh has some advantage over prims and sculpties and all that. What wouyld that be?
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: So Gwyn, what is this huge thing you made here?
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: a logo of some sort?
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it has rezzed?
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: yes
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can’t see it
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Scarp Godenot: it is huge
[2011/09/06 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: strange lol
[2011/09/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: poooh
[2011/09/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, it’s on top of the trees
[2011/09/06 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, it’s more 3 D and it’s more detailed
[2011/09/06 16:24]  TR Amat: Ourple losenge?
[2011/09/06 16:24]  TR Amat: Purple*
[2011/09/06 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Zoe gave me a picture of what the olive looked like on her viewer
[2011/09/06 16:24]  Scarp Godenot: btw, the prim equivalents of that object is 452 prims
[2011/09/06 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: it’s the letter OM in Tibetan script actually., I wanted to see if it was set to physical or not… it is not
[2011/09/06 16:25]  Leia Chase: This one looks like a squished soccer (footie to you brits) ball
[2011/09/06 16:25]  Scarp Godenot: This is a great example of how fucked up the Labs policy is.
[2011/09/06 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm. Size makes no difference, Scarp
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was really finding that strange.
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So…. recap…. two myths dispelled
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Scarp Godenot: I just read the edit box prim equivalents Gwyn. Sorry but you are mistaken.
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Meshes are not automatically physical
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Size doesn’t matter
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought so, but now I know 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I don’t see it, but oe may be bloking my view
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): lol
[2011/09/06 16:26]  Extropia DaSilva: Thinkers: teaching Gwyn what she did not know since ’05.
[2011/09/06 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: She removed it.
[2011/09/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just resized it, Scarp, the PE remained at 452
[2011/09/06 16:27]  TR Amat: Most things don’t matter from half a light year away? 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And they weren’t set to physical
[2011/09/06 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: You can watch the PE change as you change sizes of those objects.
[2011/09/06 16:27]  Scarp Godenot: I have done it several times.
[2011/09/06 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: They didn’t change!
[2011/09/06 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: I HAVE SEEN IT. IT HAPPENS
[2011/09/06 16:28]  Stora Rhodes: PE would depend on the LOD ?
[2011/09/06 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That wasn’t a nag, oe, but now, I see your hair and shoes, and nothing else. Oh, and your hair looks a fright–like a terminal case of the friies
[2011/09/06 16:28]  TR Amat: The case of the ghostly prim bits has been known in SL for years…
[2011/09/06 16:28]  Scarp Godenot: PE is definitely size dependent. This is why there is huge complaining out there.
[2011/09/06 16:29]  Leia Chase: Goodness. Thinkers reduced to debating whether size matters.
[2011/09/06 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: OMG two minutes to go! So let us have some concluding statements about our topic which was….
[2011/09/06 16:29]  Zobeid Zuma: gaah, I’m messed up. . . BRB!
[2011/09/06 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, she was alleaten away
[2011/09/06 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: oh…I got rid of tat cut and paste:)
[2011/09/06 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: well never mind…
[2011/09/06 16:30]  Leia Chase: It was: “Apparently, ‘Your world, your imagination’ now only applies if you are a graphic artist with access to thousands of RL dollars worth of software or an Open-Sourcer that can figure out the arcane use of Blender. But I guess its in LL’s best interest to jettison the rest of us in favor of their artist pals”.
 That is Macklin Deckard’s summary of what mesh has brought to SL. But have we really taken a step toward an SL that favours “artist pals” while denying creative freedom to others?
[2011/09/06 16:30]  TR Amat: Meshinations, and arguments not meshing?
[2011/09/06 16:30]  Extropia DaSilva: THanks Leia dear:)
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Blender isn’t *that* hard.
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Mesh is here, it’s more hype than anything else, there are problems with it, but they will be resolved, and people will adapt to it, and others will work on it. There’s my summary
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: And if some things in life are hard, is LL to blame for that?
[2011/09/06 16:31]  TR Amat: I guess I need to have another go at Blender…
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, for any graphics artist used to Maya or 3ds, Blender is just slightly worse, but manageable 🙂
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Zobeid Zuma: Should we blame Apple for publishing Garage Band, even though it’s hard to learn to play a guitar? 😛
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Leia Chase: New features don’t reduce creativity of using old techniques – but they do reduce marketability and compatibility.
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: rhi: well said!
[2011/09/06 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): thanks, Gwyn
[2011/09/06 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: oh it is more than hype
[2011/09/06 16:32]  TR Amat: Mesh isn’t as contavercial as Voice was for SL?
[2011/09/06 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: OK well I like Leia’s comment so it can end this discussion. My time is up!
[2011/09/06 16:32]  Ivy Sunkiller: it *is* a gamechanger for SL
[2011/09/06 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Leia: they encourage competition, by filtering out pros from amateurs, and providing consumers with the highest possible quality at low prices 😉
[2011/09/06 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK: ANIMALISM…
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One Response to THINKERS SEP 06 2011: A FINE MESH

  1. Zobeid Zuma says:

    This isn’t entirely a new issue. Doing any advanced building in SL has always required working with textures, and you can’t edit textures in your viewer. It takes a program like Photoshop or the GIMP to do that. Neither one is easy for a beginner to pick up, plus full Photoshop costs hundreds of bucks. You could use found or bought textures, but obviously you face a lot of limitations that way.

    The situation with sculpties and mesh is exactly the same problem doubled, or more than doubled. Blender and Maya are even harder to learn than GIMP and Photoshop, and Maya is $3500!

    Also worth mentioning. . . I was irked by the free programs, GIMP and Blender, that are designed to work through X11 and therefore will always be painfully awkward on Mac OS X. There’s just no practical way to make them Mac-like.

    The real problem is not that we have different levels of content creation: an amateur level and a professional level. The real problem is that there’s such a huge gap between them. It’s tough to make that leap. However, I’ve been poking around and discovered there are some options to bridge the gap — at least for us Mac users. (I’m not so sure what’s available for Windows.)

    You can go into the Mac app store and find two graphics editors: Acorn and Pixelmator. Both of these are native Mac/Cocoa programs that promise to be more friendly and efficient than Photoshop or the GIMP. (Pixelmator seems to have a more Photoshop-like interface, which is not necessarily an advantage from where I sit! I bought Acorn.) You can also find a native Mac program called Cheetah3D, which has been touted as a great program for learning 3D modeling.

    None of these program have 100% of the features and power of their more established counterparts, although they aren’t toys either. Last I checked, Acorn was $50, Pixelmator $30, and Cheetah3D is $100. That’s not free — but as a one-time cost, those prices I think aren’t out of line with the other costs of being a an advanced amateur or semi-pro content creator for SL (i.e. land tier, marketplace fees).

    So. . . Once you’ve maxed out your potential with the in-viewer tools and purchased or found components, there’s a next level you can advance to, which is more accessible than trying to dive straight into those heavy professional tools.

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