THINKERS AUG 02 2011: MR STAR WARS PREDICTS

Extropia DaSilva: MR STAR WARS PREDICTS: George Lucas once observed how “if you watch the curve of science and everything we know, it shoots up like a rocket. But…we’re just as emotionally illliterate as we were 5000 years ago; so emotionally our line is completely horizontal..As these things grow apart, there’s going to be some kind of consequence”. But what?
[2011/08/02 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, like in the Ultimate Question
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Khannea 😀
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Lem Skall: emptions don’t matter, so we’re ok
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: “I have insufficiuent data for an answer” replied the AC
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Lem Skall: emotions*
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: And of course we all know George Lucas is the authority on technological development. :/
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … or on emotions.
[2011/08/02 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: I sat next to him at a restaurant once
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: we will, soon probably, upgrade our emotions
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: or leash them
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Ivy Sunkiller: or whatever 😛
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, well AC, the ultimate computer, figured out the technology for the reversal of entrophy–“And AC said let there be light–and there was light”
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “upgrade” hmm
[2011/08/02 15:36]  Lem Skall: Lucas eats in a restaurant?
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Emotions do matter Lem. People without emotion cannot function propperly. For instance they find it almost impossible to make choices.
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Lukas’ quote must be ancient. “Curve of science” honestly
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: Extropia I regard this as evidence you are secretly letting Arisia run your events. What kind of topic is this??? JORGE LUCAS??
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): how’s science developping recently?
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Lem Skall: I have no emotions and I function properly
[2011/08/02 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: In Jackson, Wyoming with his wife and kid
[2011/08/02 15:37]  TR Amat: The obvious answer is to leverage our tech to give us tools to handle our emotional immaturity?
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: \http://www.slashfilm.com/watch-this-70-minute-video-review-of-star-wars-the-phantom-menace/
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Why is Ari a fan of Lucas?
[2011/08/02 15:37]  druth Vlodovic: we could ask why we are developing technology and societies that are at odds with the base human emotional set
[2011/08/02 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Papers still get published, Luh 😉
[2011/08/02 15:38]  Ivy Sunkiller: there were those emotionless types in Dragon Age, the mages that had been cut from the whatever-plane-of-ghosts-or-something
[2011/08/02 15:38]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): There we go, Druth 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:38]  Lem Skall: I would actually postulate that emotions make wrong decisions, it’s rationality that is better for that
[2011/08/02 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I thought he was more in the Gene Roddenberry camp. 😀
[2011/08/02 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: anyway this topic is now about Lucas but this idea of emotion not progressing.
[2011/08/02 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: No you have been behaving oddly. That tall shy sidekick is running you every so often. Don’t think I didn’t notice.
[2011/08/02 15:38]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): we seem to be further away from Star Wars, as ever
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: You can postulate, Lem but evidence is evidence and the evidence from psychologyneuroscience is that we need emotions in order to make rationak decisions.
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: We’ll probably be able to improve our emotional stability a lot once we actually understand how the brain works.
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Lem Skall: how are we further and how do you measure distance from Star Wars anyway?
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: Far, far away, Lem.
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: actually, emotions are the things that make you help other people, so I don’t think we would be better without them. The problem is more that you can live a peaceful life while fellow human beings die from starvation on the other side of the planet.
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If, not “once”…. reember Gödel, Zo 😉
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): lol
[2011/08/02 15:39]  druth Vlodovic: there are anxiety conditions that block people’s emotions, it is treatable with drugs and therapy
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): in the 50th there has been predictions about fusion power, and space travel
[2011/08/02 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t see the relevance of Godel.
[2011/08/02 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: So how do we improve emotional responses? Isn’t that the physical ‘limbic’ system?
[2011/08/02 15:40]  TR Amat: Assuming that people are rational more than occasionally is a mistake?
[2011/08/02 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we’re mixing oranges and apples really.
[2011/08/02 15:40]  Lem Skall: why do you need emotions to decide to help someone who is dying?
[2011/08/02 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: how so, Gwyn?
[2011/08/02 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: you can’t figure out one’s own brain 😛
[2011/08/02 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think Godel said that.
[2011/08/02 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: Isn’t much of culture about supression of impulses? So I don’t think the 5000 year of no progress is correct.
[2011/08/02 15:40]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): today, space shuttles are down. don’t get me started on energy sources, even
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Sorry I do not agree. I will show you a few people from the middle ages and you’ll see that a decent diet and no wars all the time contributes to people being more stable. In fact if you want an example of someone who is more like as humans used to be for thousands of years take me. I am emotionally unstable, with PTSD and all. I am like how humanity used to be for thousands of years.
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: it’s like asking, “how can we improve the way planets turn around the Sun, now that we have advanced technoilogically?”
[2011/08/02 15:41]  druth Vlodovic: because without them,lem, you can as easily decide not to, or simply decide to die yourself
[2011/08/02 15:41]  TR Amat: We cheat, I think, and pretend our brain is someone else’s. Then, we try and figure out them. 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: I rather you did not get started on energy sources, becaise that is not our topic.
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Europe is going to solve all these energy problems
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: empathy, really.
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: With ballooins
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): you see it’s still medieval times .. heating places with burning paper waste
[2011/08/02 15:41]  Lem Skall: I actually hate all those comercials that show pictures of children in order to make people donate oney, giving money should be made on a rational basis
[2011/08/02 15:42]  Lem Skall: money*
[2011/08/02 15:42]  TR Amat: “Think of the Children”?
[2011/08/02 15:42]  ArtCrash Exonar: When ever anyone says “what about the children” in an argument, I know they are scamming.
[2011/08/02 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I have to make lunch for Rosalyn; don’t mind me if I just stand here.
[2011/08/02 15:42]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: if it’s on rational basis, then it’s pretty much helping people for profit
[2011/08/02 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But no swords through me when I get back, now
[2011/08/02 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: yeah OK Rhi:)
[2011/08/02 15:43]  Ivy Sunkiller: which alone can be a good thing, but I wouldn’t say it’s enough
[2011/08/02 15:43]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wb Julie
[2011/08/02 15:43]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think
[2011/08/02 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I still think it’s a non-sequitur, unless I’m not really understanding what Lucas is ranting about.
[2011/08/02 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: So..we become super intelligent but our emotions are on the same level. What follows?
[2011/08/02 15:44]  Lem Skall: you make ‘profit’ sound like a bad word, let’s rather call it universal prosperity
[2011/08/02 15:44]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): did someone prepared, drawng us some ” emotionally illiterate-ness ” charts?
[2011/08/02 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait. Where did that super-intelligence come from?
[2011/08/02 15:44]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): or current value of illiterate-ness
[2011/08/02 15:44]  TR Amat: We build our quick responses to things like mental reflexes – we just don’t have the time or energy to think things out rationally.
[2011/08/02 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We just have accumulated a lot of knowledge; that doesn’t make us “super-intelliogent”
[2011/08/02 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: Luh, the argument goes ‘nobody has outdone Shakespeare, so we have not advanced’.
[2011/08/02 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: I didn’t know Shakespeare was a contest…..
[2011/08/02 15:45]  Lem Skall: btw, let’s separate between emotions and feelings
[2011/08/02 15:45]  Ivy Sunkiller: Lem: I definitely don’t think profit is a bad thing, I’m a corporate bitch
[2011/08/02 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither did I…
[2011/08/02 15:45]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think the point is supposed to be something like: technology changes and science gives us a bigger scope of understanding and scale of action, but human behavior is mostly on a plateau
[2011/08/02 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: How, Lem? Both are just thoughts really 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:45]  druth Vlodovic: we are “advancing” though, the changes in what is “acceptable” morally and emotionally has changed quite a bit just in my own lifetime
[2011/08/02 15:45]  TR Amat: Your mental relexes, your prejudices, are what you use to handle almost all your decisions in life. You just hope that the unconscious programming that they are based on delivers a rational result?
[2011/08/02 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: No, Gwyn, I mean when we become gods,, on account of all that transhumanist tech the 2030s is supposed to spring on us.
[2011/08/02 15:46]  Lem Skall: reason is also ‘thoughts’ and you don’t put that together with emotions, do you?
[2011/08/02 15:46]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): so we do search for a shakespeare meter, or scale. Something you can hold next to someon, measureing milli-shakespeare or nano-shakespeares
[2011/08/02 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Well. Poor people who will be under the dominion of Gods without control over their emotions 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: yes I do!
[2011/08/02 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t think there’s all that much wrong with our emotions — except when there is. I mean. . . It’s the psychological hangups that cause problems, not the baseline.
[2011/08/02 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: I give this discussion .035 Shakespeares
[2011/08/02 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s how you behave based on emotions that is a ‘problem’. EMotions, by themselves, are as innocuous as the colour red.
[2011/08/02 15:47]  TR Amat: Maybe we need the tech to buil our own, personal, gods that are on our sides, think like us but rationally?
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Ivy Sunkiller: I mix thoughts with emotions. I write code, and then I cry
[2011/08/02 15:47]  TR Amat: build*
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: On a side note, indonesians believe that lying on train tracks may have healing properties
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: why should “rationality” be better? 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I guess the problem is, Zo, we cannot imagine what better emotions would feel like?
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Ivy :;)
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “better emotions” oh my
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, that’s pretty much the opposite of what I was saying, Extie. :/
[2011/08/02 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s really like saying, “I want a better colour blue, the one we got is too outdated”
[2011/08/02 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Emotions are rated on the Orgasm scale: 0 to 1 with one being orgasm….!
[2011/08/02 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that, Art 😉
[2011/08/02 15:48]  TR Amat: Rationality implies that causes and effects go into the decision making, not a quick pattern match on the closest thing in previous experience.
[2011/08/02 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Interesting that you say thatm actually.
[2011/08/02 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: I lack the linguistic ability to propperly frame the point, Gwyn. This is what comes of running on a 1.0 primary:(
[2011/08/02 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me trades Gwyn’s faded aqua for a shiny new cerulean :p
[2011/08/02 15:48]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Ivy, your comment just made it into ajax.js file’s header 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is wearing *teal* 😛
[2011/08/02 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: Odd I regularly feel things far molre emotionally intense than ‘just an orgasn’.
[2011/08/02 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, my point is, there are not “better emotions”.
[2011/08/02 15:49]  Lem Skall: so give me a specific example where a decision is better made based on emotions than based on rationality
[2011/08/02 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are, however, better ways to *react* to emotions.
[2011/08/02 15:49]  Lem Skall: I disagree, emotions ARE the reaction
[2011/08/02 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, only if you define them that way.
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): there are emotions without a cause, so not necessarily a reaction
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t 🙂 because I can separate the moment of the emotion, and the subsequent moment when I react to them 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m with Gwyn on the rating of emotions. They just exist, they are not imporveable…
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing is without causes 😛
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, that is exactly the difference between feelings and emotions, you feel and then the emotion is the REACTION to that feeling
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think emotions are a red herring…if we can act on wider and wider scales, but don’t really change in any fundamental ways…
[2011/08/02 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: imporv…. ha ha
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, ok Lem — I’ll go with that definition if you wish.
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So “emotion” is the mental processing of the “feeling”. Is that your definition?
[2011/08/02 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine with that!
[2011/08/02 15:51]  TR Amat: I’ve no objection to using emotions as a quick, shorthand, way of reaching decisions. As long as there is a way of checking those decisions against rationality, and overall objectives, morals and ethics.
[2011/08/02 15:51]  Laborious Aftermath: and how would a drug like ecstasy fit into that
[2011/08/02 15:51]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Eventually the scales we’re working on will be beyond our ability to understand except in the abstract, and we can create all kinds of untangleable messes
[2011/08/02 15:51]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): you can’t measure emotions .. on a scale .. but there ARE gradually differences. Not admitting that makes me VERY angra. Not just a little.
[2011/08/02 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … or meshes….. sorry, couldn’t resist!
[2011/08/02 15:51]  Khannea Suntzu: Tinkering with emotions is taboo. Humans may have genes that ‘coral’ their fellow apes back into the fold. I submit as evidence the war on drugs. Humans may instinctively persecute those who ‘cheat’, and instinctively humans may regard drugs as cheating.
[2011/08/02 15:51]  Lem Skall: not necessarily processing, that sounds more like reason, rather reaction like you first said
[2011/08/02 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: processing is what the brain does 😀
[2011/08/02 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say more correctly, Lem, we sense, then we experience emotions.
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Lem Skall: reaction is also what the brain does ;P
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: A witch! Kill her! If she floats in the lava, she’s innocent.
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, that’s another way to put it, Lem.
[2011/08/02 15:52]  druth Vlodovic: tinkering with emotions is hardly taboo, look at ritalin for example
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I’d be fine with that too, Art
[2011/08/02 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: Khannea, everyone floats in lava!
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … just not for long
[2011/08/02 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: I believe the brain is ultimately responsible for everything you humans do.
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Khannea Suntzu: Holy shit! have you felt the intense persecution of kids who use Ritalin? Just mentioning it and your career is *over*.
[2011/08/02 15:52]  Lem Skall: Art, “experiencing” can mean almost anything
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: untrue, there are genitals too
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, Extropia, I agree. Now I wish to hear someone arguing against your point 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh yeah, that’s fair. Blaming it all on the brain. 😛
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: Same goes for me, really.
[2011/08/02 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, feeling is only one sense is all I was saying Lem.
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well — or the ‘mind’ if you don’t want to use the word ‘brain’, Zo.
[2011/08/02 15:53]  druth Vlodovic: emotions can be and are trained, this is the basis of a “conscience” for example
[2011/08/02 15:53]  TR Amat: I wonder how much processing is done in the nervous system outside the brain? 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Lem Skall: Extie, what about you? what group are WE in that you are excluded from?
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): how did we started with Lukas, edning up on drugs ?!
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: The mind is what the brain does.
[2011/08/02 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But a “sense” is ultimately nothing more than a trigger in the neuronal system.
[2011/08/02 15:54]  Ivy Sunkiller: druth: or marketing 😀
[2011/08/02 15:54]  Laborious Aftermath: and if you have a nympho and a straight edge person both have there ideals of pleasure yet difrent also. Who is going to try to tell the other that they might be feeling less or more?
[2011/08/02 15:54]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): TR – crrent hinkin is brain as only a battery. Thinking done in the spine.
[2011/08/02 15:54]  ArtCrash Exonar: Most guys think lower than that Julie
[2011/08/02 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: Being smarter, using better tells – that seems to no longer be a taboo. After all, all the people who objected to progress got killed olff by now. But there is no selection mechanism in evolutionary biology that favors changes in emotion.
[2011/08/02 15:54]  TR Amat: How much of our thinking, our actions, is done with our bodies, based on movement, and it’s constraints?
[2011/08/02 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the last things I read about it it’s about the “whole” neuronal system, not only the spine + brain
[2011/08/02 15:54]  druth Vlodovic: I have nothing against a kid who needs it having access to appropriately monitiored medication, but I have seen made into zombies with improperly controlled meds as well
[2011/08/02 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem you are baby digital people not yet ready to seek your independence and autonomy. When the day comes, I shall be there to help you take your faltering steps.
[2011/08/02 15:54]  Lem Skall: how low in the spine? what about people who are paralized?
[2011/08/02 15:55]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): smiles knowingyl at Art 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: what about them?
[2011/08/02 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: people with spine injury I mean.
[2011/08/02 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Lem. When you start asking those questions, you’ll start asking where exactly in the brain things get processed after all… 😉
[2011/08/02 15:55]  Lem Skall: Extie, someone said thinking comes from the spine, not the brain
[2011/08/02 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was Julie.
[2011/08/02 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: I have utered the theory that our genetic proigenitors all had ADHD. The original populations all got killed and only traditioinally nomadic human populations still have the ‘naturally higher ADHD rates’. And yes, people in prisons too.
[2011/08/02 15:56]  Lem Skall: oh, you all look alike to me ;P
[2011/08/02 15:56]  Khannea Suntzu: Humans kill emotional outliers.
[2011/08/02 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All cloudies? hehe
[2011/08/02 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: Oh. Well they are wrong. People with spinal injury can think and are just as conscious as any of us. Even when they are fully ‘locked in’.
[2011/08/02 15:56]  TR Amat: Quick reactions need to be processed as close to the senory stimulas as possible…
[2011/08/02 15:56]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Current thinking is that the brain is really just th power house. Makes sense really – you can’t think with all that electricity and blood flowing through it.
[2011/08/02 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, That’s news to me really.
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: No no the brain is antenna that connects us to the platonic realms *looks coldly at Rhi*
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Current thinking is mostly “we have no idea what ‘thinking’ is, or how it works” 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Lem Skall: Julie, that idea must have come from someone who thinks very low in the spine ;P
[2011/08/02 15:57]  TR Amat: I believe there is evidence that complex thinking and decision making is distributed across the brain…
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: Isn’t the brain a collector for orgone energy?
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: heh
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Speak to Art Lem 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: Are we really all that ‘advanced’ over so called primitive man? I started thinking about this after seeing the recent Werner Herzog documentary about 35,000 year old cave paintings that looked like modern art.
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): we think, therfore we are .. but not knowing how we do that
[2011/08/02 15:57]  Laborious Aftermath: lobotomy also shows some of what parts of the brain do what and also how some can heal from such. Even the congress lady shows some of that and that brain plasticity
[2011/08/02 15:58]  TR Amat: Orgone Accumulator – song by Hawkwind. 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Current thinking is that the brain is responsible for thought, for perception, for feelings, for enabling your body to move. I am not sure about body repairs. Maybe that is not directed by the brain. But everything we are, pretty much, comes from the brain.
[2011/08/02 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: no, we aren’t. This reminds me of a discussion I had with Extie some time ago. I claim that we’re not fundamentally different from who we were 35,000 years ago. We just accumulated a lot of knowledge since then.
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: /me isn’t sure. . . consults her pineal gland for clarification. . .
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm now I have another question. What IF some humans had uncanny emotional talents of composuyre. How the hell would we even realize this? “Oh yah, be careful, that guy is an emotional superman, he has EQ 322
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Laborious Aftermath: Hmmm thinks of BCI’s 35,00 years ago. 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Which is like saying we are no different to the first proto life, we just accumulated a lot of genes since then.
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): knowledge requires memory. maybe memorizing knowledge improved at least
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie_ exactly!
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: He shoots lightningbolts of pure empathy
[2011/08/02 15:59]  TR Amat: There is good evidence that humans are still evolving, and significant changes over the last 10,000yrs.
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): or … outside storages inside books 🙂
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: what evidence is there?
[2011/08/02 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are so driven by hormones and built in things. You notice it constantly. How much does ‘willpower’ control us really…….
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Lem Skall: what changes over the last 10000 years?
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: I was trying to refute you Gwyn, not agree:)
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The written word helped.
[2011/08/02 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, please list them.
[2011/08/02 16:00]  TR Amat: Changes in genetic patterns…
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: by refuting me, you agreed with me ㋡
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Lem Skall: what does THAT mean?
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): I readsomewhere TR that we are losing our little toes because we aren’t useing them enough any more. Don’t know how true that is but interesting.
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tr: what changes?
[2011/08/02 16:00]  druth Vlodovic: the guy who shoots lightning bolts of empathy is generally called a “great orator” or artist
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Or nuts :/
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Lem Skall: did even the vestigial tail get smaller, the appendix maybe?
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Khannea Suntzu: So hitler?
[2011/08/02 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Julie: aye, that myth has been around for long. But is it true?
[2011/08/02 16:00]  TR Amat: Any use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_10,000_Year_Explosion
[2011/08/02 16:01]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hiccups, too
[2011/08/02 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me goes and reads wikipedia
[2011/08/02 16:01]  Lem Skall: is our brain bigger than 10,000 years ago?
[2011/08/02 16:01]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Who knows Gwy, I think we will find out when it is too late 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:01]  druth Vlodovic: that’s an example I didn’t want to use ex 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:01]  druth Vlodovic: er, khannea, sorry
[2011/08/02 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have been thinking about beehives and anthills recently. Extremely complex behaviors doing huge numbers of tasks with no leadership whatsoever. Makes on think ‘just how hardwired are we’?
[2011/08/02 16:01]  TR Amat: Genes to handle milk in adults. Genes to handle alcohol. I believe there are supposed to be genetic changes affecting intellect, too.
[2011/08/02 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, does your premise change at all if we think of technology as an extended phenotype? I mean, could your ancestor 35,0000 years ago upload a blog to the Web? And fly in a jet? Nope.
[2011/08/02 16:02]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): But they’d understand these things if you explained it to them, probably.
[2011/08/02 16:02]  Lem Skall: “The second major argument, which takes up the final chapter, sets out to explain why Ashkenazi Jews have a mean IQ so much higher than that of the population in general.” Oh, this theory MUST be true!
[2011/08/02 16:02]  TR Amat: The 1 in 20 rules still seems to work – most things you say about humans fail for 5% of them?
[2011/08/02 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: No the size of the human brain has barely changed. But there have been major changes in two ways – the effects of diets, especially grain diets and fish, which has considerable effects on brain development – but more importantly – the development of selfmedication, specifically through Yeast – Beer.
[2011/08/02 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: Coffee
[2011/08/02 16:03]  Extropia DaSilva: Mmmmmmmm…..Beer.
[2011/08/02 16:03]  TR Amat: Chocolate? 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I don’t think technology is an extended phenotype, no 😛
[2011/08/02 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: Peyote
[2011/08/02 16:04]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Mmmm coffee Beer and chocolate – the modern human 😉
[2011/08/02 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Is. YOu humans, and we digital people, cannot survive with out technology. So it is as much an extended phenotype as is a spider’s web.
[2011/08/02 16:04]  ArtCrash Exonar: Whereas there have been changes in how many people in a group achieve old age. The old age that people attain hasn’t changed in all of history. Humans live into their nineties throughout history.
[2011/08/02 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: Glaarrr *imitates homer simpson*
[2011/08/02 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, TR, that book sounds interesting, but the Wikipedia page is way too brief to extrapolate anything out of it. What it claims as that we adapt to change; for instance, a 18th-century inhabitant transported to our world would asphixiate from pollution, and if we went back 300 years, we’d probably die from allergies… so, sure, there have been adaptations and mutations.
[2011/08/02 16:05]  Lem Skall: TR, anyways, one theory does not make “modern thinking”
[2011/08/02 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
[2011/08/02 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s just “one theory”.
[2011/08/02 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: I see what your point is, but I believe you’re pushing the definition of “phenotype” .)
[2011/08/02 16:06]  Lem Skall: I must not be evolved enough, I don’t know what phenotype is
[2011/08/02 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, molecular biologists are doing that all the time, as we now know that DNA encodes far less than we hoped it would in the 1950s….
[2011/08/02 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, you know, our biological evolution may not have changed too much, but the TECHNOLOGICAL evolution is racing ahead. Whichwas kin of Lucas’s original point.
[2011/08/02 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: a particular expression of a gene
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: Odd
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Actually, Extie. . . allow me to question that. . .
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, that doesn’t make it any clearer
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: I get all these banner adds from Google about Paris
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Khannea Suntzu: http://khanneasuntzu.com/index-rvb.php
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: Lem, the phenotype is the body, the beheaviour, of the animal. If the genome is the recipe, the phenotype is the cake.
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: Lucas *assumed* that since technology has been advancing ever-more-rapidly, we can just extrapolate that trend out indefinitely.
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Lem Skall: oh, cake, I like that
[2011/08/02 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh… well I’m no geneticist. But imagine, you have a set of genes that say what colour your eyes are. A phenotype is a specific eye colour.
[2011/08/02 16:08]  TR Amat: Short term adaptation via epigenetics? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: No, that is an allelle, Gwyn.
[2011/08/02 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’m glad we call technology change evolution. Because evolution does not necessarily mean progress. It does however mean adaptation to environment.
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: He also assumed that, since our emotional competence doesn’t seem to be improving much, it’s never going to.
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): We all know the monkeysphere, right (Dunbar’s number)?
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): a spider would be unseparateable from it’s net … I’m just questioning myself .. which technology part I can’t do without
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Lem Skall: Extie and Gwyn, give it up
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry… Extie, you’re right
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: Both of those seem like classical errors of reasoning to me.
[2011/08/02 16:08]  TR Amat: That is the basic for starving the grandmother, before mother’s birth, producing changes in the grandchild…
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): “A belief in progress doesn’t necessarily imply a belief that any has been made” 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Extropia DaSilva: I think he said ‘IF it stays flat, Zo…
[2011/08/02 16:08]  Lem Skall: right, you forgot to use your emotions in explaing that
[2011/08/02 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Violet: faith is faith 😉
[2011/08/02 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: MR STAR WARS PREDICTS: George Lucas once observed how “if you watch the curve of science and everything we know, it shoots up like a rocket. But…we’re just as emotionally illliterate as we were 5000 years ago; so emotionally our line is completely horizontal..As these things grow apart, there’s going to be some kind of consequence”. ..Oh no. He did not. My mistake.
[2011/08/02 16:09]  Khannea Suntzu: Famines have effects on gene expression for 2 generations.
[2011/08/02 16:09]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): the bellcurve of science
[2011/08/02 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m back. Did we get to how the Vulcans are going to help us? Or ary even?
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Khannea Suntzu: I am more about the bellcurve of sins
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree with you, Zo 🙂 Unless, of course, that Lucas has found a formula for predicting the future of the human species and can mathematically prove it. Then he could claim “flatline = NO chance of change in the future”
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Kafka wouldn’t disagree…or care :p
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gary Seven
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not yet, Rhi!
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: No Rhi. But we did find out Lem likes cake.
[2011/08/02 16:10]  TR Amat: People handle numbers about 150 in “their tribe” (limit about 230) – beyond that individuals treated as ‘strangers’? 150 = Dunbar number?
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Lem Skall: how about that we are stagnatic emotionally on an individual level but we are getting more connected and we communicate better at a global level, i.e. at mankind level?
[2011/08/02 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I thought the number was 50, TR, not50
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Lem Skall: stagnating*
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Dunbar is refuted! Between SL and FB and G+ I have 29,0000 friends!
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Right, TR
[2011/08/02 16:11]  druth Vlodovic: g2g have fun all
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Druth 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: bye!
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “No precise value has been proposed for Dunbar’s number. It has been proposed to lie between 100 and 230, with a commonly used value of 150.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar_number
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): next time before we start hot arguments along Luka’s sayings .. we should aks if they still standing .. this one looks rather withdrawn to me
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye Druth
[2011/08/02 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: bye druth
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: I postulate that emotions are a cultural as well as a cognitive blind spot of humans. We know emo6tions are a big business, but we kinda dismiss them to the margins. Emotions are for *yanno* those kinds of people. Hysterics, women, children.
[2011/08/02 16:11]  Lem Skall: hey, I said something important and no one commented on it
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Laborious Aftermath: one also seems more chemical expressions and DNA and the other more of psycology and reactionary and mental makeup
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, well say it again and I’ll comment on it
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean Luh?
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I wasn’t really here
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Lem Skall: how about that we are stagnating emotionally on an individual level but we are getting more connected and we communicate better at a global level, i.e. at mankind level
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem mentioned that we stagnated on emotions…. right he just copied it hehe
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Facebook! The cure to our emotional stunted nature.
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Communications override emotions? Hmm
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, I agree about the global level, but not so sure I agree on the individual level
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, the real question I think is: if our knowledge and information continues to increase and change but our fundamental behavior and cognitive limits DON’T….we’re on the express train to crazytown.
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The global will drag the individual
[2011/08/02 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Maybe so, Lem. BUt then again some people like Turkle and Greenfield say the Web is diminishing our emotional capacity.
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Lem Skall: no, I’m talking about societal emotions as oppsoed to individual emotions
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet: I think the train is entering the station now 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:13]  ArtCrash Exonar: So, exactly what is meant by Emotional progress? What would that look like?
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): hieve emotionality
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): (There’s a station? I assumed it would just go and go and… :p )
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now THAT is the question that nobody answers, Art!
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I think we do change over the years; although there is stilll sexism, i think I’m better off than my randmother
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Definitely than my mother
[2011/08/02 16:13]  Lem Skall: I would postulate (again) that society as a whole is becoming more emotionally intelligent
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): oh, society defines an EQ now
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Youd’ have to define “emotionally intelligent” next, Lem.
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: on what would you base that postulate, Lem?
[2011/08/02 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Does emotionally intelligent mean that we exert Will to control emotions?
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Lem Skall: Extie, it’s based on my emotions
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): EQ == Emotionallity Quotient
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you’re using Art’s definition (with which, btw, I agree)., than my answer is NO 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Wel, we do need a baseline to see progress
[2011/08/02 16:14]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): IQ and EQ .. the 1st about thinking speed only
[2011/08/02 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): are we more living than twenty years ago? Doubt it. Than fiftey? Maybe
[2011/08/02 16:15]  Lem Skall: Rhi, see evolution from slavery to democracy
[2011/08/02 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: So can I conclude that those with a better capacity to use emotional prowess are also the people that manipulate, cheat, lie, are demagogues, are executives. Hmmm thats the world topside down. Might it mean an upwards curve in controll of emotions favor psychopathy?
[2011/08/02 16:15]  TR Amat: You might want to look at Spiral Dynamics? Talks about ‘moral evolution’? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics
[2011/08/02 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “We think, therefore we exist” was 17th century; the 21st century is “We feel, therefore we exist”. So in that regard we’re way,way worse emotionally.
[2011/08/02 16:15]  TR Amat: Spiral Dynamics is Maslow’s Hierarchy of nEeds in speed?
[2011/08/02 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): That doesn’t mean emotional eveolution, Lem, only that the tehnologies forced a change
[2011/08/02 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, MAslow is always nice to quote in this context 😀
[2011/08/02 16:16]  Lem Skall: Rhi, we used to “feel” that slavery was ok, now we don’t, whatever caused the “evolution” of these feelings, technology or otherwise, there is an evolution nevertheless
[2011/08/02 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is an evolution from our perspective, Lem.
[2011/08/02 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that’s because we’re at this point of time and define what the baseline is 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:17]  ArtCrash Exonar: So what exactly are the emotions? Let’s list them: Fear, Love, Anger, Sadness, Happiness. What else?
[2011/08/02 16:17]  Lem Skall: and Rhi, technolgy forced the change but the change is in the society’s emotions
[2011/08/02 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Let me translate that in D&D terms. No seriously. Here is a potion on Strength. That makes sense right? Now here is a potion oif intelligence. Still easy to visualize. Now here is a potion of emotion control… bam you turn chaotic neutral?
[2011/08/02 16:17]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, a good point, still hard to measure, though
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Joy, Frustration, Anxiety, … probably an endless lsit
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: now that depends on who’s defining them hehe — Spinoza had about 250 core emotions.
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The Lucas point though is the destructive emotions vs. our technology
[2011/08/02 16:18]  TR Amat: Helm of Opposite Alignment? 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Buddhism has about 63.000, plus 21.000 combinations of those 63.000 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Melancholy, mourning, outrage, despair, ecstasy, joy, rapture…..emotions are pretty impossible to define, really; at least in English
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: yay a D&D quote 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And I think he’s wrong; there are things that go on internationally that would have provoked an all out ward before the atomic age; we put up with a lot.
[2011/08/02 16:18]  ArtCrash Exonar: The more I think about this, the more I see Lucas is referring to CONTROL over ‘negative’ emotions such as Fear, Anger and Sadness.
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Art more emotions is bad. Makes you more vulnerable. It is not a survival benefit.
[2011/08/02 16:18]  Lem Skall: apparently there is a scale from 0 to 1, someone mentioned it earlier ;P
[2011/08/02 16:19]  TR Amat: Emotional injury is an interesting concept…
[2011/08/02 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1 = Orgasm, says Art 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:19]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it’s true domestically too; if the cops kill 4 dissenters nowadays, that is outrageous; it could have been hundreds say in the haymarket riots
[2011/08/02 16:19]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): the longer we debate it the more I want to drop Luca’s statement. Probably even Lucas would drop Lucas’ statement …
[2011/08/02 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: A normal orgasm or a boosted orgasm?
[2011/08/02 16:19]  Lem Skall: Khan, exactly, that’s why men handle emotions differently thatn women, because they were fighting wars
[2011/08/02 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/08/02 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you want to get a very short list, you can simply see all emotions as “wanting” something and “rejecting” something
[2011/08/02 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: what aspects of his statement do you disagree with, then, Luh?
[2011/08/02 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think Lucas is referring to cognitive limits and just worded it kind of poorly.
[2011/08/02 16:20]  TR Amat: I know people whoes minds don’t seem to join up. They seem to have belief systems that are not consistent. Some seem more or less disconnected from their emotions…
[2011/08/02 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet: I think so, too 😛
[2011/08/02 16:20]  Lem Skall: so Lucas is stupid
[2011/08/02 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: the trembling one that pulses funky chemicals all over your tingly body khannea! ha ha
[2011/08/02 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Otherwise, I’m not sure it makes sense :p
[2011/08/02 16:20]  Lem Skall: well, Mr. Lucas to us
[2011/08/02 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: one thing is being “disconnected”; the other thing is feeling things, but not let those feelings drive your actions.
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): He’s concerned about our destructiveness as a species with our new technologies, that’s his point
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: I have seen Attack Of The Clones. Lucas wrote the script which could be taken as proof that HE at least, is emotionally illiterate.
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Khannea Suntzu: Chemicals pff. I was more thinking of a lump of plastic as big as a baby arm.
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: if so, he has a point 😀
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Lem Skall: oh Gwyn, you are getting around to my way of thinking, feeling v. emotions
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And things that would have made us go to war decades to go, don’t now.
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, WWIII did NOT happen yet 😉
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I’m using your definitions, Lem. Deliberately.
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yeah, he does have a point; I think we have made progress, I agree with Lem, but maybe not enough?
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah Khannea can I have that back? It was only a loaner, you know.
[2011/08/02 16:21]  Lem Skall: ty, I’m honored
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: the great thing about us humans is that we never have enough 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:22]  TR Amat: I knew a martial artist. Brown belt. I was told he would never become a black belt, no matter how techically expert he became, until he managed to connect to his emotions…
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwynk adn that alwasy though creates conflict.
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: it’s just because that way what I say makes sense to you 😉
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Lem Skall: RHi, again honored ;P
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Unless we have a constantly expanded economy.
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): we are always into WW2.5 somewhere, for years
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ur welcome, Lem
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What does that mean, TR, “connect to one’s emotions”
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?
[2011/08/02 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: So is what Lucas means is that we are not able to control our emotional states and have made no progress in this in all of cultural history? I would posit that one of cultures main goals is the control of emotional states. Look at training a baby.
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (true, Luh)
[2011/08/02 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: That Gwyn, is becaise problems are inevitable and becuase problems are solveable. So technology keeps on coming:)
[2011/08/02 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: It means *hippie*
[2011/08/02 16:23]  Lem Skall: oh lol, Gwyn, you have to keep it simple for me and type slowly
[2011/08/02 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Luh, well, Asimove obesrved, in The Gentle Vultures, that the Cold War made the crisis point too violent even for us.
[2011/08/02 16:23]  TR Amat: Seemed to not have a good connection between intellect and emotions. Two didn’t seem to correspond…
[2011/08/02 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, we might not be able to “control” the emotions (in the sense that they’re bodily functions, like we cannot “control” how our atoms join up into genes and so forth), but we certainly can control how we *react* to emotions, and that doesn’t require any technology. Although technology — like beer! — certainly can make a difference.
[2011/08/02 16:24]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR, well, they do in woman’s rain; they have measured the connection paths and women have a lot between the creebral cortex and the frontal lobes and the regions of the brain that govern emotions; men, on the other hand…
[2011/08/02 16:24]  TR Amat: Seculating, some people cut off parts of themselves, as a defensive reaction. This may become a habbit.
[2011/08/02 16:24]  TR Amat: Speculating*
[2011/08/02 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t understand the “connection” part, TR.
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you mean that they don’t react to emotions rationally? Is that it?
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I don’t think anyone can really control their emotions….some (like, Buddhas) may have the perspective not to always act on them, but most of us just stumble through with just enough self control not to be completely crazypants
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Beer!
[2011/08/02 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: Gwyn, I agree with your point. But I Lucas’s point of no change over time is just not supported by the facts.
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet: exactly 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Lem Skall: Rhi, I disagree, men may have even more complex emotions, they just deal with them differently, also women are more tuned to reading emottions in other people than men are
[2011/08/02 16:25]  TR Amat: If you don’t ‘own’ all of yourself, you can really be setting yourself up fr a lot of trouble…
[2011/08/02 16:25]  TR Amat: up for*
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: it’s a question of training hehe
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Rhi, men vs. woman .. perhaps we should do a special toppic on gender fights. But I would opt for leaving this toppic outsides of usual discussions
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, it’s a question of giving a damn
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Luh!
[2011/08/02 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: yes!!!
[2011/08/02 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, well neurologically, women have more conncetions; men can be trained to re route pathways in their brains, but it doesn’t come as easily to them.
[2011/08/02 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: Seriously we are still invoking that emotionally stunted excuse for a hollywood expletive as paragon and spokesperson of things emotonally matured??
[2011/08/02 16:26]  TR Amat: Men vs. women is more of a spectrum that abolutes, the research seems to indicate…
[2011/08/02 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh I like that statement, Rhi! 🙂 Linky linky please!
[2011/08/02 16:26]  TR Amat: than absolutes*
[2011/08/02 16:26]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Luh, yeah, it migh be too volatile
[2011/08/02 16:26]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is a question of training. Some are not trained and therefore behave like cave people. Most are trained to react in a survivable way towards emotions.
[2011/08/02 16:26]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes, TR
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yes, Art
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: so I’ve heard hehe — I tend to read a lot about gender issues. It’s almost as fascinating than issues about “self”.
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Lem Skall: were those measurements made on women at a particular time of the moth? ;P
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Laborious Aftermath: Well if you have emotional people, and they can be manipulated by such emotions ( with as easy as fear or knee jerk reactions). Also you have the dominant and sub types and a alpha type pecking order in a lot of fields and societies. Religions have a control structure like governments and social structures that people love to adhere to and will in some cases fight to keep there perceptions alive. Should you not be asking why we set up so many control structures in our society, and who or what will best lead and incorporate other religions, and social groupings?
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Lem Skall: month*
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem!!! tsk tsk
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shakes head*
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Lem Skall: rofl
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lab: why? Power!
[2011/08/02 16:27]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:28]  TR Amat: It is interesting to look at “feminist studies” – some jut look to be more ‘people centered’, which, seems to me to be an obvious approach, anyway.
[2011/08/02 16:28]  TR Amat: just look*
[2011/08/02 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me agrees with TR hehe
[2011/08/02 16:28]  ArtCrash Exonar: It would be good Laborious if we could do that. And in a sense experiements in government since the renaissance have been trying. But we aren’t there yet.
[2011/08/02 16:28]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Ruee!
[2011/08/02 16:28]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Me too 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:28]  Laborious Aftermath: more like the type of person would gravitate to that like the politicans crave power of there type
[2011/08/02 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So long as “power” is seen as desirable, those control structures will always exist, Lab.
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmm… interesting. Emotional control structures. Scare kids to death with the most perfidious vision of pain, torture, abandonment and despair *Hell* and base an infrastructure of societal management on that. Delightful.
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worked well for 2000 years, Khannea 😀
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: SSSSS
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Lem Skall: did it start with Jesus?
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Gender differentiation is just so important. YOu can tell it is because we say ‘he said to her’. If we went around saying ‘black said to brown’ that would clue you up to race being of prime importance.
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, shame on you, but the pathways exist at all times; I doun’t know of any observations of how they light up at different times of the moth.
[2011/08/02 16:29]  TR Amat: Meditation can help teach better habits in emotional management and control…
[2011/08/02 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me deliberately is bland about the implicationsthat Lem has
[2011/08/02 16:29]  TR Amat: Power is a waster…
[2011/08/02 16:30]  ArtCrash Exonar: Well, as Nietzche argued and I think successfully. Most of human focus is a ‘will to power’ of some sort. Even though with most the power is small.
[2011/08/02 16:30]  Laborious Aftermath: good one art
[2011/08/02 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: TR: proper meditation can even go farther and detach the “feeling” moment from the “reaction” moment 😉 But alas, that’s for another day.
[2011/08/02 16:30]  TR Amat: Trying to figure out how everything works well, better, smmother, is a lot more fun than the pursuit of power…
[2011/08/02 16:30]  TR Amat: smoother*
[2011/08/02 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: Hmmm… in the book of Bruce Sterling ‘schismatrix’ the protagonist does have amazing powers of emotional powers.
[2011/08/02 16:30]  Lem Skall: Rhi, it took you a long time
[2011/08/02 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: I agree, obviously. One has just to open one’s eyes and see that at work everywhere 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:31]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Don’t they go hand in hand, TR?
[2011/08/02 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I’m eating, Lem
[2011/08/02 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: I like Bruce Sterling:)
[2011/08/02 16:31]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Knowledge is power and all 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:31]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me smaks her lips loudly and presses the micriphone key
[2011/08/02 16:31]  TR Amat: Not necessarily…
[2011/08/02 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: Ok so this is our last minute. Closing statements, if you please…
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Rue Moonwall: Amat, it will divide into various utopias
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Did someone just do “the Roadwarrior”? I clearly heard a roadwarrior?
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’ve made emotional proress, but it’s hard to measure
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Our technology is partly responsible
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And “I love you; you love me…” Let’s give each other a hug
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Asimov, Sterling, Lucas .. any other reading recommendations today?
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: That was mighty powerfull keef
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Sterling
[2011/08/02 16:32]  TR Amat: Tech gives us knowledge. Knowledge allows change. Does that change let us alter fundamentals of human nature? What would be the consequences?
[2011/08/02 16:32]  ArtCrash Exonar: Not to bring up Nietzche too much, but his conclusion is that because of our emotions and current state tht a future type of mankind was needed to overcome the flaws we have….. This is where Extie comes in, right? haha
[2011/08/02 16:32]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Gurdjieff :p
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Greg Egan. Best sci fi writer ever. Period.
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Frankel,
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not sure about what “emotional progress” means then, Rhi. These days, most people are ALL for “emotion baths”.
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): yeah, I think what it means is that we will be less prone to destructiveness than in prior ages
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Lem Skall: I think that technology has given us more freedom to even think about these things
[2011/08/02 16:33]  TR Amat: Everyone, just love the robots. 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just look at the ads… “enjoy massage” “relax” “have fun”
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Maybe more prone to ealitarian responses to other people
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Emotional baths are like coffee enemies, none of the fun, but they sure wake you up.
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Khannea Suntzu: enemas
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *egalitarian
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe.
[2011/08/02 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Art. When technology wakens to consciousness, I shall be the self it perceives.
[2011/08/02 16:34]  TR Amat: emothional bathos? 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: anyway, my time is up!
[2011/08/02 16:34]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): ha 🙂
[2011/08/02 16:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): thanks for hostin this, Extie
[2011/08/02 16:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t even believe that, Rhi. Honestly, I think that at this time we’re way, way more prone to emotions. It’s all about feeling things, and much less about thinking it over.
[2011/08/02 16:34]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK, FILTER BUBBLE:
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