THINKERS JUNE 28 2011: A HUMAN IN THERE

 Extropia DaSilva: OK well now we start all over again because it is time to get the discussion going! Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/06/28 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: THERE’S A HUMAN IN THERE: “I always liked the idea that…you knew that was a costume, and inside there was someone that looked just like you”. This quote explains why you need to attach prims to a human avatar’s body in order to make a none-human avvie. How does knowing there’s a human avatar inside a furry etc affect SL’s users?
[2011/06/28 15:32]  Phil (philliam): Uhm…
[2011/06/28 15:32]  Phil (philliam): Read above.
[2011/06/28 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now when you proposed that topic last week, Extie, my first comment which I had not voiced out loud was: “but we are ALWAYS human inside” 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:33]  Unnatural Magic: have you ever seen a furry AV without their head on? it’s disturbing 0.0
[2011/06/28 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: Now let me revert that as I always do
[2011/06/28 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: I have a friend who is an old, slighly confused woman. Looks like a man, tall, used to be fat, skinny these days. She forgot who she was and now she looks and acts more and more like me. What if she is arrested and put in a psychiatric clinic to ‘cure’ her.
[2011/06/28 15:33]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): lol, I agree with Magic
[2011/06/28 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: In that case, Gwyn, is it unecessary?
[2011/06/28 15:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s fascinating, Khannea!
[2011/06/28 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: She wouldn’t want to because my blessings make her happy.
[2011/06/28 15:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t know, Extie. In my case, I cannot fail to see the human behind everybody.
[2011/06/28 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: I would be pissed off and I wouyld try and kill the physicians.
[2011/06/28 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: Also, would a newbie be able to look at Unnatural and know that is sort of a costume over a human avatar?
[2011/06/28 15:35]  Unnatural Magic: I often avert my gaze when someone is changing AV to avoid seeing the tough shape thrown on under neath to support the lovely look on the outer layers 😛
[2011/06/28 15:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Stranger
[2011/06/28 15:35]  Unnatural Magic: that would depend on how new the noobie was no?
[2011/06/28 15:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. I think I was not clear enough… what I mean is that I experience everybody in SL as humans, because that’s what they arem no matter how they look like, or no matter how SL’s technology is limited.
[2011/06/28 15:35]  Stranger Nightfire: hello Violet
[2011/06/28 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: So then what if a human in the ‘real world
[2011/06/28 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: for lack of a more silly term
[2011/06/28 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. I might not figure out *how* an avatar is actually made, but I *know* that there is ahuman being behind the keyboard 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:36]  Unnatural Magic: Actually, I occasionally get mistaken from a prop depending on the sim I’m in >.>
[2011/06/28 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well sure, until the moment you start to talk 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:37]  Unnatural Magic: that does tend to give the game away all right 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes Gwyn. Behind the curtain is a human pupeteer. But Linden Labs added another human layer. Beneath every avvie is a human form. From what I have read, they consider this an important connection. Is it?
[2011/06/28 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: would acutely experience a transdimensional, diffise nonhuman state? And that state chose to be ‘humanoid’for the time being to placate the host? And then the temporary hybryd started changing everything about the host’s (humans) life, clothes, style, tastes, sexual habits…
[2011/06/28 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Heya Zoe:)
[2011/06/28 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw. Do they, Extie?? I had no idea! Where did you get that reference??
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Zo 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Zobeid Zuma: Darn it, my iCal alarm didn’t go off. 😦
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: No Behind the curtain is a human pupeteer. But Linden Labs added another human layer. Beneath every avvie is a human form. From what I have read, they consider this an important connection. Is it?”
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiya Zo!
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: The ultimate source of all knowledge to do with life in SL. Hamlet’s book.
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Not necessarily
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: unfortunately, we cannot make that experiment on this Earth 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Khannea Suntzu: Odd
[2011/06/28 15:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s fascinating, Extie. I really had no idea.
[2011/06/28 15:39]  Khannea Suntzu: There are those that see what I do and swear it is so.
[2011/06/28 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: No idea about what?
[2011/06/28 15:39]  Extropia DaSilva: The reason why you have to attach prims to points on the body to make an avvie like Unnatural here.
[2011/06/28 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That LL deliberately introduced humans as the only mesh for some reason.
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: I think we can all agree that was a mistake. :/
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes and that is all the more symbolic 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Conover’s Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Why is that, Zoe?
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Lem 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Zobeid Zuma: But when starting something entirely new (as SL was), there are bound to be a lot of goofy ideas that don’t stand the test of time. 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: We had to start somewhere Zobi 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Lem Skall: hi everyone
[2011/06/28 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: No evolution without constraints.
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Unnatural Magic: well by having only one bone structure they simplified a lot of things. if they had had more, they would have had to adapt the animation system to specify which structure it applied to no?
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Stranger Nightfire: every form of nonhuman avi is some kind of invention, SL was really meant to be filled with humans
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Khannea, please allow me to remain skeptic 🙂 The possible ‘states’ that the human mind can be in are so vast and profound that some of those can be perceived externally as being “almost non-human”, but, at the core, it’s just the vastness of the human mind that can manifest itself in so many fantastic ways that causes that perception to appear.
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: One of my first disappointments with SL was that you could only choose male or female shapes, no furry species. . .
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: Time will tell Gwyn 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Extropia DaSilva: Why not, Zoe? Most people adopt a humanlike form and I am guessing even if your avvie was like a formless lump you could mould into ANYTHING, 99% of us would look like people.
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Unnatural Magic: Actualy, when i joined SL there was the choice of starting as a lemur
[2011/06/28 15:41]  Unnatural Magic: it was an awful Av though XD
[2011/06/28 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: Soon we will have meshes.
[2011/06/28 15:42]  Khannea Suntzu: And then all things will bebetter
[2011/06/28 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I came from a background of text-based MUCKs where very few of the characters were human.
[2011/06/28 15:42]  Unnatural Magic: the meshes still have to deal with the same bone structure however
[2011/06/28 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: that’s because surrealism appeals to just 1% of the people…
[2011/06/28 15:42]  Stranger Nightfire: ha ha, a lemur of all things
[2011/06/28 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: 99% probably were non-human, so of course I thought it was weird here. :/
[2011/06/28 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Zo
[2011/06/28 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: non.human in shape, not in mind 😉
[2011/06/28 15:43]  Khannea Suntzu: No, meshes will eventually allow for any bone structure as defined. Define attachment oints as you see fit.
[2011/06/28 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I dunno, sometimes I wondered about them.
[2011/06/28 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOl Zo!!!
[2011/06/28 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The same comment I made to Khannea applies to that as well 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: They could have been AI Gwyn. They had some fairly convincing chatbots running around MUDS you know.
[2011/06/28 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Our human mind is really something truly fantastic — it can manifest itself in such a way as to appear non-human 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Riiiiight Extie.
[2011/06/28 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: *hey!*  I like human shapes. I like constraints and then exploring the boundaries of the known, the overly familiar and the slightly odd.
[2011/06/28 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: I was just reading an eBook about a notional future VR world with a lot of paralells to SL. The book is called “Beautiful World”, by Kristina Tracer. But she comes from a MUCK background. . .
[2011/06/28 15:44]  Khannea Suntzu: The ‘taboo’
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Khannea
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: And the world she describes, called Irokai, is populated entirely by furry avatars.
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Extropia DaSilva: No I am serious, Sherry Turkle compiled some transcripts of conversations with these chatbots. THey were really good.
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Unnatural Magic: but the mind is never really manifest. we never see the thoughts of another, know what they are feeling, understand thins from their perspective. all we see are the impact of their thoughts, feelings and perspectives acting through the available materials they have influence on no?
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what does that prove? That it’s easy to trick people?
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Unnatural!!!
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Lem Skall: do any furries in SL behave completely like animals and communicate only by animal sounds and gestures?
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s it!
[2011/06/28 15:45]  Zobeid Zuma: Some of the characters in the book made non-furry avs — like clockwork avs, jello avs, weird stuff like that — and were looked upon as sort of freaks by the regular normal furries. 😀
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: no, but they communicate by smell…
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 7gig
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Unnatural Magic: people trick themselves on a moment by moment basis no? 😛
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Me I am the Charonic Cassandra wth my own boat ferrying back and forth over the icy waters shy of the Uncanny Fjord, and I take passengers with a kiss, just as did Persephone.
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *giggles*
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Extropia DaSilva: Yeah I see your thoughts through my interpretation of them. So they are not YOUR thoughts at all.
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely, unnatural! 😀
[2011/06/28 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And just so, Extie 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or perhaps they’re not your thoughts at all, Extie, just what you think that thoughts are 😉
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Lem Skall: Extie, they are still our thoughts that you see and not yours
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I live in a solpsist universe, Not in the sense of being the only person who exsts, but in the sense of only having my subjectivity to go on. It is mine and mine alone.
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh. That’s just playing with semantics, sorry
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Baron von Kackwurst (kraftwerk.maximus): byebye
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear hear, Extie
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Zobeid Zuma: So when people talk about the human form being normal in SL, I say it’s because LL chose to make it so. They could have made it otherwise, and things would have worked out much the same. Only different.
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: Bye!
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: See you, Baron!
[2011/06/28 15:47]  Khannea Suntzu: Ease down people I still have a high level of LSD in my brain.
[2011/06/28 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. There is a curious experiment in IMVU…. I don’t know if you have ever used it (nevermind any comparisions)
[2011/06/28 15:48]  Extropia DaSilva: But are we constrained by technology or by..I dunno…ourselves in some way?
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But IMVU in 2005 did some sort of market study, and, well, at that time, “new” VWs ought to have anime/manga, cartoon-like characters, so that’s what they did.
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Extropia DaSilva: Mesh. Let us suppose mesh makes it easy for anyone to create any kind of avvie they want. Then what?
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: By that time, of course, SL was the reference.
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In 2011… the cartoonish characters in IMVU are gone
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Zobeid Zuma: There *was* a practical aspect to using the human form. I mean, somebody had to model/program it. It would have added a lot of work and complexity if they were like Furcadia where you could choose from several different starting species.
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because, well, it has user-generated content too…
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and every content creator in IMVU has designed meshes for *realistic* human-like bodies.
[2011/06/28 15:49]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, the study was probably incorrect
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sure, there are non-humans too…. same proportion as in SL)
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I read a study which showed the less humanlike an avatar was, the less people trusted the person wearing it. So there might be a cultural pressure to revert to a human form.
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: I agree.
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Example #2….
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Zobeid Zuma: Mesh will make it easier, and make the results nicer, and make some particularly difficult forms possible. . . but not a huge revolution. We already have a lot of funky avs running around.
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Have you gone window-shopping iRL lately? Have you noticed the difference about mannequins in 2011 compared, to, say, 1999?
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Unnatural Magic: furcadia has one big advantage over SL though. each of those diffrent forms were stroed as their own file. in SL all the animations. all the skin, all the shapes and shoes, clothing and the like have to fit on every mesh and work with every bone structure available. having only the one made that very simple
[2011/06/28 15:50]  Lem Skall: mesh will make human avs more human-like
[2011/06/28 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that’s what I expect to happen in 99% of the cases, Lem)
[2011/06/28 15:51]  Unnatural Magic: /me would be the 1% then
[2011/06/28 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, unnatural
[2011/06/28 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: Extie, I don’t trust people who have deliberately crude/ugly avs. I usually assume they are griefers. I don’t think the same applies to a nicely done, creative non-human av.
[2011/06/28 15:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing wrong with that
[2011/06/28 15:51]  Extropia DaSilva: According to the study, it does.
[2011/06/28 15:52]  Lem Skall: why do you need a “natural” technology to make something that is unnatural?
[2011/06/28 15:52]  Unnatural Magic: I object to the term uggly. Aesthetics is a purely subjective thing that varies from individual to individual. I would stick with crude in appearance
[2011/06/28 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: Mannequins go through fashions, I know. I haven’t studied them that closely.
[2011/06/28 15:52]  Stranger Nightfire: i can believe that there is predudice against nonhuman avs
[2011/06/28 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the mannequin experiment is also curious. In the 1990s, as obesity started to be well.known as the #1 cause of frustration, mannequins started to become more “neutral”: white-coloured and not flesh-coloured, no hair, no nails, no realism. Why? Because it was researched (?) that people would identify better with them that way.
[2011/06/28 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Zo…. the difference is that a decade later,
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: people started to question this approach
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): You hardly look crude to me, Unnatural :p
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Extropia DaSilva: what other technology could there be, Lem? Technology IS nature.
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not unlike the issue with IMVU (and as Lem said, “they probably read the wrong study”)
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Unnatural Magic: I describe all my AVs as cute and fluffy. 😛
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So these days mannequins are again flesh-coloured and have hair styled in the latest fashions.
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Too many details on something that isn’t human gets a little too Uncanny Valley; it’s easier to ifentify with streamlined symbols
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Lem Skall: hmmm, technology IS nature
[2011/06/28 15:53]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh, I like the unrealistic colored ones.
[2011/06/28 15:54]  Khannea Suntzu: If I didn’t have to become decent, I couldn’t wait to be mounted bu Unnatural Magic. Oh my that sounded so symbolic.
[2011/06/28 15:54]  Zobeid Zuma: But then I have a lot of “unrealistic” skins here in in SL too. 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m not surprised, Zo, since you have affinity with non-human, surrealistic scenarios 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes!
[2011/06/28 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, in the film ‘Time Machine’ the traveller sees a manaquin in a shop window. The fashions change in a blur but the doll remains constant. You are saying, in reality, the doll too would change as tastes change?
[2011/06/28 15:55]  Unnatural Magic: there is a very good reason not to make things look /Too/ human. people tend to have a very strong netgative treaction to something that looks almost human but has some really bizar fault. there is a very well defined point at which an artificial representation of humans becomes repulsive to the average person. pardon me but i have forgotten the name for that particular point
[2011/06/28 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: The Unnatural Fjord
[2011/06/28 15:55]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Uncanny Valley 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:55]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Or that :p
[2011/06/28 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes but SL is nowhere near that level of realism.
[2011/06/28 15:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look… if there weren’t surrealism… we would be losing a major art form. Please don’t read me wrong; I’m NOT saying that just because 99% of people cannot understand surrealism, they’re right and the surrealists are not! Rather the contrary! I believe that teh abilioty to transcend limitations of the human shape (and human-type environments) is very important, useful, and reveals a lot of creativity! I’m just saying that the vast majority does not “get” that.
[2011/06/28 15:55]  Unnatural Magic: ahh there it is
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Unnatural Magic: thanks for that
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unnatural: yes, the uncanny valley syndrome…
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: We are talking ‘Avatar’ levels of photorealism here, not the cartoony nature of SL avvies.
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends, Extie. Our brains compensate for the difference.
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: Mannequins with sort-of-flesh-tone tan paint — especially when it starts getting chipped — are creepy.
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: MMmh
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I disagree.
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: disagree with whom?
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Actually…I wonder if there’d be more non human avis if it were easier to do?
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Zobeid Zuma: /me is cartoony? ;.;
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: very good point; it’s the uncanny valley with mannequins too!
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Lem Skall: IMO, the uncanny valley effect is due to a clash between something looking VERY realistic but in a context of something that is unrealistic, like they look realistic but move artificially
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Yes. You are.
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Khannea Suntzu: We will soon reverse engineer the ethic of the aesthetic, and then we synthesize the algrorithms of taste and style.
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Extropia DaSilva: Well, your avatar is. YOU are not.
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet: no, because, as said, 99% of us humans don’t feel comfortable with that
[2011/06/28 15:57]  Lem Skall: an artificial world that would be COMPLETELY realistic would not be a problem
[2011/06/28 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m not sure if mesh avs will be “easy” as such. It’ll take some skills and some tools to make them. But there *are* some types that haven’t been practical with the current system, that I’d really love to see appear.
[2011/06/28 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: mm hmm. In SL’s case, we, as persons, are absolutely realistic in our reactions, but our pixel-based avatars aren’t, so the effect is still there.
[2011/06/28 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: easy for professionals.
[2011/06/28 15:58]  Unnatural Magic: I have found mesh rather disapointing so far. it;s not nearly as useful as I had hoped
[2011/06/28 15:58]  Zobeid Zuma: It’ll take time for them to reach their potential, I’m sure.
[2011/06/28 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw. Sorry to hear that, Unnatural!
[2011/06/28 15:58]  Unnatural Magic: Still a work in progress though I hope
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with both of you on that, Unnatural & Zobeid 🙂
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Unnatural Magic: mesh isnt going to stop people using attachments. it wont replace basic prims or do away with sculpties
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Incidentally, I ran into a sim owner who was in a PANIC over the arrival of mesh.
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A lot are lol
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: I am not
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Khannea Suntzu: Reinstalling Maya asap
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, I mean, we start with a human shape and it’s pretty easy to customize that really quickly, but it takes more effort to find or make something nonhuman
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: The uncanny valley happens because as you get close to photorealism, the tiniest details like micro-expressions and how light bounces off the skin really start to matter. But they do not matter when realism is cranked down.
[2011/06/28 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: She was talking about closing down her sim and maybe going to OSGrid. She spoke of a coming “exodus from SL” because of mesh.
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Zobeid Zuma: Yet another exodus from SL! How many of those have we had?
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Unnatural Magic: Really? i find non human easy. staying human is the tricky part
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: what Lem mentioned is that the issue is not about “photorealism”, it’s about realism in some areas but not in others.
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Extropia DaSilva: IN theory the population of SL should be about -1000 by now.
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Photorealism is a totally weird goal to me, anyway
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Unnatural Magic: Actualy the only human AV I have was got for the soul reason of being the other half of my werewolf XD
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Unnatural Magic: my life in SL
[2011/06/28 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: that’s plain silly! There will be mass adoption of meshes in OpenSim too, mostly because the meshes in SL will be costly and the ones on OpenSim will not!
[2011/06/28 16:01]  Zobeid Zuma: She said eventually non-mesh prims in SL will go away, thereby breaking all existing content and relegating all building to professionals.
[2011/06/28 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: I will play as I always have, and I will take great delight in making meshes. Much easier than sculpties.
[2011/06/28 16:02]  Zobeid Zuma: And of course everyone will have to use Viewer 2, which is totally unacceptable. Nuh uh, no way!
[2011/06/28 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: Finding Nemo. They went for complete photorealism but when they achieved it they thought ‘oh everyone will think we just filmed it’ so they redid the film to look less ‘realistic’ and more ‘styistic’.
[2011/06/28 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (meshes were introduced in OpenSim 24hours after LL had released their first beta viewer; they’re just not massively used on OpenSim commercial grids because their owners are conservative and use outdated versions — newer OpenSim versionstend to be unstable 🙂 )
[2011/06/28 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: exactly!
[2011/06/28 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: aye, and the world will end in 2012 too 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: I tried to reason with her, but she was very convinced that LL is The Devil and is destroying SL with this whole mesh thing. Of course, I remember when voice was going to destroy SL. . .
[2011/06/28 16:03]  Unnatural Magic: hehe. finding nemo amused me. they managed a very realistic water simulation. found it was too realistic and actualy leveled it down to something more managable XD
[2011/06/28 16:03]  Zobeid Zuma: And banning gambling was going to destroy SL. . .
[2011/06/28 16:03]  Khannea Suntzu: Bla
[2011/06/28 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: so meshes are a new funnel to guide us towards gnostic enlightenment
[2011/06/28 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: The kind we cant see because we look with the ridiculous gelatinous orbs
[2011/06/28 16:04]  Unnatural Magic: everything was going to destroy SL. when they introduced sculpties it was going to destroy SL. people were up in arms, ohhh SL add a new feature that doesnt even work! and they do this instead of fixing all these bugs that are ruining it for everyone la de da so on so forth
[2011/06/28 16:05]  Unnatural Magic: every time something new comes out, it;s why do this rather than fixing that? why dont they listen to us? we’re all fed up and leaving!
[2011/06/28 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: But is a mass exodus to OS so far fetched?
[2011/06/28 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, I am one who always thought they should work more on bugfixes and stability. :/
[2011/06/28 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: SCREW YOU GUYS GOIN HOME (cartman whiny voice)
[2011/06/28 16:06]  Unnatural Magic: yes
[2011/06/28 16:06]  Unnatural Magic: the open grid isnt particularly user friendly
[2011/06/28 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: I’d love to see OpenSim grow and gain more population and content. And better viewers that are compatible with it. But it seems to be a very slow, if not downright glacial, process.
[2011/06/28 16:06]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): LL is pretty bad about adding new things without fixing old things; and people in SL are pretty bad about complaining about everything out of habit :p
[2011/06/28 16:06]  Unnatural Magic: say what you like about SL…. OK v2… lets ignore that for now, but it is fairly consistant
[2011/06/28 16:07]  Zobeid Zuma: I go to OSGrid and usually find a handfull of geeks in the welcome area talking about network stuff, and the rest of the world effectively empty.
[2011/06/28 16:07]  Unnatural Magic: hehehe
[2011/06/28 16:08]  Unnatural Magic: yeah, those geeks probably wrote the interface they are using and contributed to some part of the system somewhere 😛
[2011/06/28 16:08]  Unnatural Magic: and the odds are, asside from the others they are telling about it, they are the only ones that know about it
[2011/06/28 16:08]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hey, where’d Gwyn go?
[2011/06/28 16:08]  Zobeid Zuma: I don’t begrudge them. But the world needs more than just the people who made it function.
[2011/06/28 16:08]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Oh :p
[2011/06/28 16:09]  Unnatural Magic: that’s pard of the problem with OS. too many cooks
[2011/06/28 16:09]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): wb Gwyn 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … sorry…. my router is getting old and sometimes drops the connection…
[2011/06/28 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: But anyhow, example time. . . Many people have tried to make centauroid avatars (centaurs, chakats, foxtaurs, etc.) in SL — and you can sort of do it with attachments, but the results are always crude and ugly.
[2011/06/28 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s something I hope can be done much better with meshes.
[2011/06/28 16:10]  Unnatural Magic: I dont know. a lot of those centaur critters are very cute ^.^
[2011/06/28 16:10]  Unnatural Magic: meshes are not coming with new bone systems. if new bone systems come in it will be later
[2011/06/28 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m picky, I guess. I’ve never seen one that I’d be really happy with.
[2011/06/28 16:10]  Julie Bluebird (lolli.bluebird): Interesting but have to *poof* – bye for now.
[2011/06/28 16:10]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Lolli
[2011/06/28 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: Ahh the irony. Unnatural with his outlandish avvie remains but poor normal Gwyn crashes!
[2011/06/28 16:10]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, even if meshes are limited to. . . basically humanoid bone structure, there are still some cool things that I’d like to see done with that.
[2011/06/28 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unnatural has a good home infrastructure 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:11]  Unnatural Magic: mhh. they will be nice for certain things
[2011/06/28 16:11]  Unnatural Magic: but sculpties are more useful
[2011/06/28 16:11]  Zobeid Zuma: Ehh?
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: I have a suggestion which is a triple leap of faith. Send me 3 bitcoin at 1FMovDRVxjspBo7Cwsf2ZFoXrJcrxv7owW. Then send me a reply postal address.= by email. Some negfrious criminal may then send you a nice letter with a small attachment to the top left. Eat that attachment, it will be microdot LSD. Tripole leao of faith, will help you more in seeing the strings and the stage behind the pinocchio. You might even see the marionetteer as the illusion,
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Unnatural Magic: meshes have sevear limits placed on them. they arent going to be changable with scripts for one
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: I thought mesh was going to by-and-large make sculpties obsolete.
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Unnatural Magic: not a chance in hell
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Zobeid Zuma: Are those technical limits, or arbitrary ones imposted by LL?
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s LL’s plan, but we’re not there yet
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Unnatural Magic: mesh will not be anything close to as practical as sculpties
[2011/06/28 16:12]  Unnatural Magic: they are functional ones imposed by LL so far
[2011/06/28 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not the current generation, no.
[2011/06/28 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: I heard LL was going to put a lot of restrictions on mesh because they’re concerned about rampant piracy of meshes imported from various other sources/worlds/etc.
[2011/06/28 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: You are silly UM, I see nothing but advatages
[2011/06/28 16:13]  Lem Skall: sheesh, I am really getting out of touch with the changes in SL
[2011/06/28 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: Its very easy
[2011/06/28 16:13]  Zobeid Zuma: Like for example, I think you need to have a paid account before you can UL them?
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The “restriction” is that only validated avatars can impºort meshes.
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Unnatural Magic: I am not saying mesh wont have it;s advantages. but sculpties have more versatility. as the meshes are out forth right now. sculpties will not be replaced at all
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I have to be going…take care, everyone 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not a paid account — a validated account
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Let only a new class of registered business accounts import meshes
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: Ahh, okay.
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: Ner nerny ner my account is validated.
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Extie 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Zobeid Zuma: But I’m still not clear on the advantage of sculpties, I thought meshes were going to be more versatile and efficient.
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah and they then can kjick your ass if you import something naughty
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Extropia DaSilva: I think. Does credit card details count?
[2011/06/28 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: All it takes is for someone to buy L$1 on LindeX to become validated 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Extie 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Unnatural Magic: meshes cant be changed by script
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: Nope, I send LL my passport,. THAT is validated.
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: even on Adult sims!?
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, you mentioned that. Got anything else?
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Unnatural Magic: that alone makes them less useful 😛
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Khannea Suntzu: I mean naughty stolen meshes, Gwyn
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhhhh
[2011/06/28 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Its the same system as th3ey’d use on Blue Mars
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: it’s also harder to share them. Unlike sculpties, which, being mnerely textures, are easy to share
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Only registered bla bla clients can import
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Partner arrangements
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Zobeid Zuma: Not sure exactly why that’s a problem, Gwyn. A file is a file, I’d imagine.
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: Fuyck up three times, you”re banned
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. That’s not what I was told, Khannea.
[2011/06/28 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: We’ll see
[2011/06/28 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: They should
[2011/06/28 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: I believe that the biggest issue is that it’s hard to share the mesh *file* itself. To be honest, I’ve just toyed with them in my own inventory and haven’t given them to anyone, so I’m not sure
[2011/06/28 16:17]  Lem Skall: are meshes in SL already or are they coming?
[2011/06/28 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: They are already here
[2011/06/28 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: If OpenSim does meshes with less restrictions, that could be a big attraction.
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Where? lol
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: yes!
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Not online, but this browser can make them visible.,
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: The software is already in
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Unnatural Magic: if open sim doesn’t solve the load as a whole issue it could be repellent
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Unnatural Magic: solve the load issue as a whole*
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the grid servers? Are you serious? I’ve heard that but couldn’t confirm it
[2011/06/28 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Meshes are a big trick to keep opensim stressed.
[2011/06/28 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why “stressed”? Meshes work well on OpenSIm 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or rather… they work. “Well” is a different issue hehe
[2011/06/28 16:19]  Unnatural Magic: anything LL does with SL will be in open sim almost immediatly
[2011/06/28 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: Managing load is more of an accounting problem than a technical one, I’d imagine.
[2011/06/28 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 24 hours, as I said before crashing 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:19]  Unnatural Magic: no… it’s a very technical issue 😛
[2011/06/28 16:20]  Unnatural Magic: hah. and anything LL does in SL will probably be in Open sim in 5 or 6 diffrent variants almost immediately 😛
[2011/06/28 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s true, all making OpenSim even more unstable 🙂 and thus not used by the commercial OpenSim grid operators hehe
[2011/06/28 16:21]  Zobeid Zuma: OpenSim and SL are diverging in terms of compatibility, aren’t they? At least on the viewer side. . .
[2011/06/28 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: OpenSIm is not even compatible with OpenSim 😀
[2011/06/28 16:21]  Unnatural Magic: like I said. they have to tackle the issues as a whole. if they dont, the failings of 90% of open sims servers will drag down the reputation of the rest
[2011/06/28 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Unnatural
[2011/06/28 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me that I have my own grid to fix lol
[2011/06/28 16:21]  Unnatural Magic: it is one of the huge failings of such things. Wayyyy to many cooks
[2011/06/28 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yeeees
[2011/06/28 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re SO right on that, Unnatural! Developing for OpenSIm is truly a *nightmare*
[2011/06/28 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: OpenSim is not compatible with OpenSim?
[2011/06/28 16:22]  Unnatural Magic: the only way anything from open sim would threaten SL is if they broke away from the general grey goo of the OS mass and branded themselves as something else
[2011/06/28 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: Huh?
[2011/06/28 16:22]  Khannea Suntzu: I will take this bet – by next year June meshes will be normal, all of SL is transforning or has totaly changed, you will see scenes close to photorealism or ‘creysis
[2011/06/28 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: and we will laugh at all this denialism
[2011/06/28 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh,. I could rant about that for weeks… my mastership thesis had about a whole chapter on why OpenSim and libopenmetevarse developers are a bunch of loonies that should be cooked over a slow fire….
[2011/06/28 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: hear hear
[2011/06/28 16:23]  Unnatural Magic: in a years time sculpties will still be here 😛
[2011/06/28 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I won’t bet against you because I pretty much believe you too, Khannea
[2011/06/28 16:23]  Unnatural Magic: probably propping up the weaknesses in mesh XD
[2011/06/28 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Unnatural
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Unnatural Magic: and I will say again. mesh is useful. but it will not replace anything
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: Yah and that is GOOD. Bloody hell I want at least ive other graphics formats also to seep into SL.
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: Let it all mix and match
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Embrace and extend!
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Lem Skall: will SL have a purpose by then too?
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The same as always.
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: By 2020 I want to inmport features from most games. Unreal Engine.
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Let’s make the viewer as big and complicated as we can, by adding redundant and poorly considered features that the other guys don’t have!
[2011/06/28 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: And then some.
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Zo!!!!!!
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s the way to compete. 😛
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Eat all formats.
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, SL is not competing any more 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Thery will once Morre’s law allows them
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Just watch
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: Well, true. . . I don’t know what I’d point to *other* than OpenSim as a competitor, and it’s not much of one.
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I happen to agree with Khannea on that again.
[2011/06/28 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah… yes…. I agree…. OpenSim is the only competitor, yes
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Lem Skall: I don’t think that SL’s problems are only technical
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, unless the OpenSim Core Developers pull their show together, what will happen is more and more and more and more fragmentation.
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Unnatural Magic: OS isnt the only competor… or has blue mars and IMVU or whatever it;s called died already?
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: I thought Blue Mars died. . .
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would be lovely to think that those were the only problems with SL, Lem 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Zobeid Zuma: And IMVU is some kind of toy world, isn’t it?
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Khannea Suntzu: Hah in a decade a Google Earth client will fit INSIDE a SL 5.0 client. Some sub directory.
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blue Mars…. does iPhone apps
[2011/06/28 16:26]  Unnatural Magic: hehe
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: IMVU is not a “competitor”
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: IMVU
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a 3D chatroom where you can dress up your avatar.
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Right
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Yeah. Toy world.
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The avatars are lovely though!
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Extropia DaSilva: Is anything a competitor, Gwyn?
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No.
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not for LL, no.
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The era of competitors has gone away 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: They sit on a pretty steep high plateau
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Zobeid Zuma: Much to my dismay. 😦
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Facebook has no competitors, SL doesn’t have any.
[2011/06/28 16:27]  Khannea Suntzu: Its a totally new ballgame at this levelk
[2011/06/28 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Khannea.
[2011/06/28 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: Its more competing ecologies
[2011/06/28 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: Will the Chtorr win?
[2011/06/28 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also interesting is that both SL and Facebook have reached their maximum expansion levels at about the same time. There simply aren’t no more people interested in either technology.
[2011/06/28 16:28]  Lem Skall: btw, eve online just introduced avatars that can be dressed up and move around but it’s still only in an office where you are alone, avatars cannot be together yet
[2011/06/28 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah yes, I’ve seen the drama about Eve Online: meshed clothing that is more expensive than real clothes!
[2011/06/28 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Eve Online avatars are for something else entirely. *smirk*( wanna know what?
[2011/06/28 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Coming from you, Khannea, I can surely imagine what… 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1v3rONmizs
[2011/06/28 16:29]  Lem Skall: what?
[2011/06/28 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: making some real money
[2011/06/28 16:30]  Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[2011/06/28 16:30]  Unnatural Magic: anywho. I need to be odd.
[2011/06/28 16:31]  Unnatural Magic: take care all
[2011/06/28 16:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: take care, Unnatural 😀
[2011/06/28 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, tell us, Khannea, what is this “World of Darkness MMO” about?
[2011/06/28 16:32]  Extropia DaSilva: And with him gone, our time is up!
[2011/06/28 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: That
[2011/06/28 16:32]  Khannea Suntzu: Screw any mesh critics.
[2011/06/28 16:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, That second video is more like it!
[2011/06/28 16:33]  Extropia DaSilva: NEXT WEEK BITCOIN BITES THE DUST?
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