Extropia DaSilva: WHAT MORE IS THERE TO MACHINIMA: Can machinima become more than merely traditional filmic narratives told via videogame technology? What potential is there for this to become an artform that simply cannot be replicated in traditional cinema?
[2011/06/07 15:35] Scarp Godenot: Hey there SearbyM, I see that you are working at the LEA sandbox. I love that place
[2011/06/07 15:36] SearbyM: hi – justg visiting LEA – soo much to leanr
[2011/06/07 15:36] Scarp Godenot: That is a cool place to meet artists and see what is happening in the art world
[2011/06/07 15:36] Ivy Sunkiller: SL porn!
[2011/06/07 15:36] Ivy Sunkiller: (yes it exists!)
[2011/06/07 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: ws
[2011/06/07 15:37] Zobeid Zuma: /me erfs.
[2011/06/07 15:37] Extropia DaSilva: how does SL porn differ from video porn or cinema porn. Apart from involving avatars instead of people?
[2011/06/07 15:37] Ivy Sunkiller: (you have to start the discussion by putting it on the right tracks, right?)
[2011/06/07 15:37] Ivy Sunkiller: Extropia: inhuman avatars maybe?
[2011/06/07 15:38] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): an edge for machinima would be participation. you know you cannot act in a hollywood movie. no cats allowed
[2011/06/07 15:38] Ivy Sunkiller: or things you wouldn’t see people do normally
[2011/06/07 15:38] Ivy Sunkiller: or at very least not more than once 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:38] Khannea Suntzu: I am here
[2011/06/07 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: she lives!
[2011/06/07 15:38] Extropia DaSilva: You OK over there, gwyn?
[2011/06/07 15:39] SearbyM: for me, porn is baout who controls it – gangsters exploting vulnerbale people, obviously a bad thing, are there gangsters in SL?
[2011/06/07 15:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ta-da 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:39] Ivy Sunkiller: hoy hoy Gwyn
[2011/06/07 15:39] Extropia DaSilva: yes.
[2011/06/07 15:39] Khannea Suntzu: I had my PC guy over. I bullied him into implementing 4Gb
[2011/06/07 15:39] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): there has been the mafia, but kinda got quiet arround that area
[2011/06/07 15:40] Extropia DaSilva: Do Pixar films qualify as very high end Machinima. They are all CG, after all.
[2011/06/07 15:40] SearbyM: if no one is getting hurt, damaged, then SL porn must mean more opportunity???
[2011/06/07 15:40] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): try sneaking your avatar inside a Pixar movie … even for background decorations. Not possible to participate
[2011/06/07 15:40] Scarp Godenot: I think machinima needs to be ‘filmed in a virtual world’ so pixar isn’t machinima
[2011/06/07 15:41] Extropia DaSilva: GIven that nobody has anything to say about the artistry of machinima and want to talk about SL porn…Would you rather that be the topic?
[2011/06/07 15:41] Ivy Sunkiller: machinima has to be real time rendering, yes 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:41] Conover’s Flight-Helper 6.3.3 (WEAR ME!): Flight-helper is ready and operational.
[2011/06/07 15:41] Scarp Godenot: Did anyone catch the article by the director Peter Greenaway on SL machinima criticism?
[2011/06/07 15:41] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): that inside VR requirement opens a door for interactivity. Unplanned events. Storyline developped on the fly
[2011/06/07 15:41] Ivy Sunkiller: hello Lem
[2011/06/07 15:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What, 10 minutes after the discussion has started and we’re already switching topic to porn? 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:42] Lem Skall: hi everyone
[2011/06/07 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: What did it say, Scarp?
[2011/06/07 15:42] Ivy Sunkiller: I’ve seen man vs SL, it’s quite hillarious
[2011/06/07 15:42] Scarp Godenot: let me find the link
[2011/06/07 15:42] Khannea Suntzu: These are snowboots, not hobo shoes
[2011/06/07 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: No just tell me.
[2011/06/07 15:42] Scarp Godenot: He said that it shouldn’t follow traditional forms basically. Sort of a medium is the message thing
[2011/06/07 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: Oh is that the one with the guy who gets chased by vampires and stuff?
[2011/06/07 15:42] Extropia DaSilva: I love that!
[2011/06/07 15:43] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): indeed that’s dreadfull, hobos frozen to death in the snows
[2011/06/07 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: But how can machinima avoid following traditional films?
[2011/06/07 15:43] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): /me hopes K got no snowball thrower
[2011/06/07 15:43] Extropia DaSilva: They are merely traditional films told using videogames, no?
[2011/06/07 15:43] SearbyM: no story board?
[2011/06/07 15:43] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The advantage of machinima for me is cheapness….using existing builds, props and technologies for your own projects instead of needing to learn to do everything from scratch. That opens up expression to people who don’t/won’t/can’t learn to render and animate things themselves.
[2011/06/07 15:44] Khannea Suntzu: On the topic of Machinina, I intend to organize a 2 hour full impact white rabbit, and host with coioperation of a hars cire dolcett group a total gore dolcett field trip
[2011/06/07 15:44] Scarp Godenot: http://uwainsl.blogspot.com/2011/05/peter-greenaway-interview-following.html
[2011/06/07 15:44] Khannea Suntzu: In a while
[2011/06/07 15:44] Ivy Sunkiller: machinima is, at least for the moment, mostly considered amateur work
[2011/06/07 15:44] Ivy Sunkiller: unless I’m terribly wrong and things are changing 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:44] Lem Skall: right, Violuet, that’s what the world needs, more cheap movies
[2011/06/07 15:44] Extropia DaSilva: Citizen Kane was made by an amateur.
[2011/06/07 15:44] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Violet, low budget surely draws them in. But would be sad if budget tightness stays the only drag for machinimas
[2011/06/07 15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. I sell machinima made by professionals; so is that “amateur work”? 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway… My question is, for the watcher, how is machinima really different from CGI animations?
[2011/06/07 15:45] Lem Skall: just doing your first movie does not make you an amateur
[2011/06/07 15:45] Grinx Raymaker: I made a machinima once and got a free plot for a year cause I won a contest with it 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:45] SearbyM: amatuer versu prof – maybe is trhe firsrt ting we xcan let go of
[2011/06/07 15:45] Scarp Godenot: Up until virtual worlds computer imagery had to be built frame by frame. Now it can be filmed inside the machine.
[2011/06/07 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the producer it’s a world of difference, no question about that.
[2011/06/07 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: I once did a cartoon strip (not video) illustrated with snapshots from SL. And I took advantage of various settings just as Violet describes. It was fun.
[2011/06/07 15:45] Khannea Suntzu: http://www.naughtymachinima.com/
[2011/06/07 15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Searby: the old definition applies: pros are people that make a living out of it 😉
[2011/06/07 15:45] Zobeid Zuma: Or I should say, it was fun when SL wasn’t crashing, locking up, or refusing to load textures, which it was most of the time.
[2011/06/07 15:46] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): so on list of drawbacks we got: amateur works, budgetless. On the other side I would put up errr
[2011/06/07 15:46] Scarp Godenot: btw, check this link for the Greenaway stuff: http://uwainsl.blogspot.com/2011/05/peter-greenaway-interview-following.html
[2011/06/07 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Drawbacks hmm
[2011/06/07 15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *scratches head*
[2011/06/07 15:46] Formatting Heliosense: it surprises me we are discussing how machinima can find its own voice in the film medium before we ever arrive to the stage where machinima has a voice in film
[2011/06/07 15:46] Lem Skall: I think that machinimas have the value of being something new, for now
[2011/06/07 15:47] SearbyM: I did not mean that folks would not make money, I meant , (I think) and indusrey that does not exclude people
[2011/06/07 15:47] Khannea Suntzu: Tje biggest problem with machinima is ‘perceived valueu’. Anyone can do it so people either appreciate on campy ‘sweded’ youtube value
[2011/06/07 15:47] Lem Skall: it’s just interesting to see something like “look what I can do” but artistically they don’t have a lot of value
[2011/06/07 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: How so? I’m confused with that sentence, SearbyM!
[2011/06/07 15:47] Zobeid Zuma: Oh, and BTW Gwyn is still a cloud to me. 😛
[2011/06/07 15:47] Scarp Godenot: Especially interesting in that above article is part one of his text there which is the FOUR tyrannies.
[2011/06/07 15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And to me., Zo 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:47] Khannea Suntzu: Or they scoff at it and sneer and /sit largely because it is cheap and ambundant
[2011/06/07 15:48] Formatting Heliosense: we see this with each step toward digital media
[2011/06/07 15:48] Extropia DaSilva: Someone said MAchinima are defiuned by the fact they are made with realtime video graphics. So could realtime video graphics be used in some way that traditional films could not emulate?
[2011/06/07 15:48] Lem Skall: Khan, if it’s easy to do then it is not really valuable
[2011/06/07 15:48] Scarp Godenot: Machinima I think is the best way to show the general public what virtual world art looks like. So it is valuable for that.
[2011/06/07 15:48] Formatting Heliosense: photography has just recently accepted digital imagery as ‘photographic’
[2011/06/07 15:48] Scarp Godenot: Easy to do does NOT make things valueless.
[2011/06/07 15:48] Scarp Godenot: Content makes things valuable.
[2011/06/07 15:48] Khannea Suntzu: No its the other way around – if people find that any idiot can do something X then people hold X in contempt.
[2011/06/07 15:48] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Agreed, Scarp
[2011/06/07 15:49] Lulu Lacrima: Hi Ata
[2011/06/07 15:49] SearbyM: I feel definitions of “qaulity” lurking in the bushes
[2011/06/07 15:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I don’t know much about “machinima as art”, since I’m only familiar with “machinima as business”….
[2011/06/07 15:49] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well….part of the fun of realtime filming is that things can go wrong :p
[2011/06/07 15:49] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Lulu!
[2011/06/07 15:49] Lulu Lacrima: 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:49] Lem Skall: so a drawing by a child is valuable for its content? what is the content in that case and what is the content of most machinimas?
[2011/06/07 15:49] Ivy Sunkiller: well, any idiot can get master’s degree this days, which is why I hold higher education in contempt, so there is a point
[2011/06/07 15:49] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): I’m not sure if the difference between real time graphics and traditional cgi like Pixar employs is sharp defined, or blurry
[2011/06/07 15:49] Extropia DaSilva: You can also ramp up SL’s effects to the max, edit out all the lag and make SL seem like some showcase graphics extravaganza in order to sucker in more unwary souls, not expecting low quality graphics and laggy lag lag;)
[2011/06/07 15:49] Ivy Sunkiller: this days = these days
[2011/06/07 15:49] Formatting Heliosense: well …are we talking people in the general public or in the art world?
[2011/06/07 15:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luh: agreed. For the watcher, there is no difference.
[2011/06/07 15:50] Lem Skall: what is the content of a machinima that cannot show face expressions and not even real movement?
[2011/06/07 15:50] Lulu Lacrima: stiletto off
[2011/06/07 15:50] Extropia DaSilva: what difference does it make, Formatting?
[2011/06/07 15:50] Scarp Godenot: You judge things by their content Lem, not by their ease or difficulty of production.
[2011/06/07 15:50] Lulu Lacrima: bling off
[2011/06/07 15:50] Ivy Sunkiller: art world can go in exactly opposite direction though, something can be so simple and plain it becomes art just because of that 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:50] Lem Skall: Scarp, the content is influenced by the easiness of producing it
[2011/06/07 15:50] Formatting Heliosense: some do scarp – but other judge by impressive production
[2011/06/07 15:51] Khannea Suntzu: And then there is the stigma factor. Product in weimar Germany that had a ‘jewish’ association were hard to sell as such and cheaper. Likewise if things online have an SL asociation they are regarded as tacky, nerdy, made by weirdo’s, dismissed
[2011/06/07 15:51] Ivy Sunkiller: “ah, a red square, that painter is a genius!”
[2011/06/07 15:51] Lem Skall: an impressive production constiutes content too
[2011/06/07 15:51] Scarp Godenot: You are talking about content there.
[2011/06/07 15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I disagree, having sold two machinimas last year, Khannea. 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:51] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): there must be some way for recording/replaying avatar movements (& Prims) even in high quality
[2011/06/07 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luh: sure, all you need is a superfast computer and a good fibre connection 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:52] Lem Skall: oh, I agree that content is important but my point is that you cannot have a lot of good content cheaply
[2011/06/07 15:52] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I kind of find machinima that focuses on characters less interesting than things that focus on settings…..probably because of the unnatural annimation… So I think of it as being more like moving photography than traditional storytelling film.
[2011/06/07 15:52] Khannea Suntzu: You sell them just fine. Paul verhoeven uses SL Machinima for all his major productions. Its pretty common and easy.
[2011/06/07 15:52] Scarp Godenot: Btw, where do people get the idea that producing machinima is easy? Ask anyone who does it. This is NOT the case.
[2011/06/07 15:52] Lem Skall: and making it cheap even eliminates some components of the content
[2011/06/07 15:52] Extropia DaSilva: How do you record them? I seem to remember Gwyn had a handheld video camera when she recorded that little youtube clip of us in me balloon.
[2011/06/07 15:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s as easy to produce as conventional video.
[2011/06/07 15:53] Lem Skall: some movies are valuable just for their imagery, not much to do with that in a machinima
[2011/06/07 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Did I use that? I can’t remember, Extie 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:53] Khannea Suntzu: Did I suggest that jewish made prodiucts on the weimar republioc anno 1930 were bad? Hell no. Good stugff. Its the stigma however.
[2011/06/07 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought I always used SnapX Pro
[2011/06/07 15:53] Scarp Godenot: Let’s not confuse shooting footage with producing a finished machinima. Shooting footage is a small part of the process.
[2011/06/07 15:53] Extropia DaSilva: I do not know if it actually did anything or if it was just some prop.
[2011/06/07 15:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Scarp.
[2011/06/07 15:53] Khannea Suntzu: Try pakistani stores in the city where I live. They sell at looow prices,
[2011/06/07 15:54] AlmostThere Inventor: Xcues, I got here late; what is “scarp”?
[2011/06/07 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Producing a machinima has exactly the same requirements as producing regular video.
[2011/06/07 15:54] Extropia DaSilva: yeah Scarp. Even in normal films the film is really made in the editing suite.
[2011/06/07 15:54] Scarp Godenot: ha ha
[2011/06/07 15:54] Khannea Suntzu: SL suffers from widespread stigma
[2011/06/07 15:54] Lem Skall: Khan, most people prolly don’t even know if a store is Pakistani
[2011/06/07 15:54] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Scarp is over there 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:54] Scarp Godenot: A Scarp is a smartass!
[2011/06/07 15:54] Scarp Godenot: ha ha
[2011/06/07 15:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mostly 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:54] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
[2011/06/07 15:54] Extropia DaSilva: you OK there Lulu?
[2011/06/07 15:54] AlmostThere Inventor: Ahhh, It’s an AV, I thought is was a software program! 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s human!
[2011/06/07 15:55] Scarp Godenot: I’m almost there
[2011/06/07 15:55] Lem Skall: you could make a machinima in SL and show it to people and most of them will not know it was made in SL so the stigma does not count much
[2011/06/07 15:55] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): 🙂
[2011/06/07 15:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Lem.
[2011/06/07 15:55] Lulu Lacrima: sorry extropia, had a bit of a particle cloud issue
[2011/06/07 15:55] Extropia DaSilva: If I go see a play at the Globe Theatre in SL. Is that a machinima?
[2011/06/07 15:56] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): hardly, but comes close
[2011/06/07 15:56] Scarp Godenot: I think there is a big emphasis on machinima by SL people now because that is the primary way to show virtual world things to no virtual world people.
[2011/06/07 15:56] Lem Skall: so wasn’t the question though if machinimas can bring something that rl movies can’t have? other than cheapness?
[2011/06/07 15:56] Scarp Godenot: non
[2011/06/07 15:56] Lulu Lacrima: deus ex machinima?
[2011/06/07 15:56] Lulu Lacrima: hehe
[2011/06/07 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: Well could you run a machinima in SL and somehow tie it to audience partipation in a way that goes beyond films that experimented with AP?
[2011/06/07 15:57] Khannea Suntzu: I am sorry Lem, but If I show anyone an SL vid, its vicious dismissal *blluegh SL crap* most of times.
[2011/06/07 15:57] Lem Skall: Scarp, so we’re talking of machinimas of documentaries of SL or pure art?
[2011/06/07 15:57] Khannea Suntzu: Or porn
[2011/06/07 15:57] Extropia DaSilva: no not porn.
[2011/06/07 15:57] Scarp Godenot: Well Lem to answer that question, running computer scripts to produce effects that can be ‘filmed’ is something that traditional cinema can’t do.
[2011/06/07 15:58] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): wb Gwyn
[2011/06/07 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: may you rez this time Gwynn!
[2011/06/07 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: Hooray!
[2011/06/07 15:58] Lem Skall: Khan, I doubt most people ever heard of SL even, you must be talking of people you know but they are a small subset of real people
[2011/06/07 15:58] Scarp Godenot: I’m talking both virtual world art and virtual world documentary, Lem.
[2011/06/07 15:58] Extropia DaSilva: Linden God heard our prayers and accepted our sacrifice of Prok’s chickens!
[2011/06/07 15:58] Lem Skall: Scarp, special effects can be done in rl movies too
[2011/06/07 15:58] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): indeed many people don’t know of any such world like SL
[2011/06/07 15:59] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): which is dissapointing, if you remember back some month ago
[2011/06/07 15:59] Lem Skall: so what special value can machinimas have as art?
[2011/06/07 15:59] Extropia DaSilva: remember what, Luh?
[2011/06/07 15:59] Khannea Suntzu: The reason SL porn does NOT arouse me is because it rarely has a tension arc. It’s always this adolescent race from Oh my to Wow to WOW to ATMcumshot
[2011/06/07 15:59] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): the forecasts of growth
[2011/06/07 15:59] Scarp Godenot: I think that ‘filming’ the results of a computer scripted effect isn’t something that cinema has done much of yet.
[2011/06/07 16:00] Extropia DaSilva: I remember reading there is none and SL is doomed unless it sells its soul to Facebook. You mean that?
[2011/06/07 16:00] AlmostThere Inventor: (T.M.I.)
[2011/06/07 16:00] Lem Skall: but how is that effect better than effects in rl movies?
[2011/06/07 16:00] Khannea Suntzu: /me hisses viciously
[2011/06/07 16:00] Scarp Godenot: I’m not saying it is better, just that it is different’.
[2011/06/07 16:00] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): naw rather rot in hell than seeling once’s sould to FB 😛
[2011/06/07 16:01] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I don’t know if machinima can do anything genuinely different than traditional film or if that would really be all that interesting…..it’s just a different kind of animation.
[2011/06/07 16:01] Extropia DaSilva: I cannot imagine it is better. Effects rendered over a great period of time can always outdo those that have to be rendered realtime.
[2011/06/07 16:01] Khannea Suntzu: The problem here is very clear – no proper talent in storytelling. inear thinking. Consumers who think they are cinematographers.
[2011/06/07 16:01] Lulu Lacrima: forgive my ignorance but what about rotoscope?
[2011/06/07 16:01] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): so what could a machinima do, what movie can’t? you could announce a filmset with 1 million actors. I mean we got that 1000 Avatars Book so why not doing a movie
[2011/06/07 16:01] Khannea Suntzu: Uwe Bole -ism
[2011/06/07 16:01] Lem Skall: so “different” is exactly what I was referring to earlier, it’s just a matter of “look what I can do” but there is not much value in that for the long term
[2011/06/07 16:01] Scarp Godenot: A 3D virtual world is not at all like a 2D cinema fram simulating 3D. There are infinite points of view in the virtual world, whereas there is one point of view of the ‘3D’ cinema.
[2011/06/07 16:01] Khannea Suntzu: hah Owe Bol yism
[2011/06/07 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: OK. What abut it, Luh?
[2011/06/07 16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea, that’s like discussing taht there is no future in video production, because 99.99% of everyone posting movies on YouTube are amateurs :)(
[2011/06/07 16:02] Khannea Suntzu: I agree, Gwyn, but at least Youtube has a shitload of monkeys on those typewriters
[2011/06/07 16:02] Lem Skall: so one or a few machinimas that showcase some effects from SL may be interesting as a novelty, but continually making machinimas like that is not going to last
[2011/06/07 16:02] Extropia DaSilva: what do you mean infinite points of view? You see only what the film makers frames, surely?
[2011/06/07 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: E.g. the argument that “machionima has no future because most people producing it are amateurs” is not a valid argument; that can be said about all sorts of art forms.
[2011/06/07 16:03] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): what about .. it’s just the buzz. and one can state: biggest numbers
[2011/06/07 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: from the perspective of the *artist* it’s cheaper.
[2011/06/07 16:03] Lem Skall: Gwyn, but why would a professional do something in SL when there are much better platforms to make movies, either real or animated?
[2011/06/07 16:03] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): ” shitload of monkeys” would make a good working title
[2011/06/07 16:03] Scarp Godenot: The talented will have better access to the tools of 3D animation using virtual worlds. That alone will enable a big jump in creativity.
[2011/06/07 16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I guess they will continue to use it because of that.
[2011/06/07 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree with Scarp on that 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: better, yes. Cheaper, no!
[2011/06/07 16:04] Lem Skall: Scarp, the “real talented” have access to much better 3D tools
[2011/06/07 16:04] Scarp Godenot: Untrue Lem
[2011/06/07 16:04] Grinx Raymaker: blender is free
[2011/06/07 16:04] Lem Skall: oh true
[2011/06/07 16:04] Khannea Suntzu: I had an idea a while back. Make a super detailed machine of the movie Alien – but then make it twice or three times as long, Extend the dialogues. Insert missing scenes, make up scenes. Rebuild all the sets in meticulous detail. Extrapolate scenes,
[2011/06/07 16:04] Lem Skall: I don’t see Pixar using SL
[2011/06/07 16:04] Scarp Godenot: The corporate model doesn’t allow for unbridled creativity.
[2011/06/07 16:05] Lulu Lacrima: what about rotoscoping?
[2011/06/07 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: grinx — try to produce a 5 minute clip from scratch with the # of polygons that SL renders, and tell me how long that takes compared to a machinima…
[2011/06/07 16:05] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): lulu, explain…
[2011/06/07 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: BTW I saw a great one. It was a mixture of RL and SL. Plot is, some girl in Sl logs to meet her SL boyfriend. And some nutter in RL has kidnapped boyfriend’s primary and proceeds to hack bits off him every time the girlfriend cannot answer a personal question about him.
[2011/06/07 16:05] Grinx Raymaker: blender has a game engine
[2011/06/07 16:05] Grinx Raymaker: sure 😉
[2011/06/07 16:05] Lem Skall: Gwyn, again you are talking about cheaper and easier but the final result is worse
[2011/06/07 16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure!
[2011/06/07 16:05] Extropia DaSilva: Really, Lem?
[2011/06/07 16:06] Lem Skall: yes, really
[2011/06/07 16:06] Lulu Lacrima: well, luisa, I’m not well versed in the genre, but rotoscoping seems to capture human motion in a uniquely animated way–why not employ the same techniques to render sl-style avatar action?
[2011/06/07 16:06] Lem Skall: the graphics engine in SL sucks
[2011/06/07 16:06] Scarp Godenot: Machinima is in its very infancy. We will see big leaps in quality and achievement in the next few years.
[2011/06/07 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We cannot compare a multi-million dollar production from Pixar to a 3-minute ad that clients will only pay 5 or 6 thousand US$ for pros to produce 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:06] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Making machinima doesn’t really require much technical knowledge….you need a way to record stuff and you have to be able to edit. That ease of access is its biggest advantage.
[2011/06/07 16:06] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): rotoscope, 1914, Max Fleischer … that’s for trickfilm animation
[2011/06/07 16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet;: you’re just talking about footage. Footage != Machinima
[2011/06/07 16:06] Lulu Lacrima: but aren’t we trickfilm right now luisa?
[2011/06/07 16:06] Extropia DaSilva: So if Weta digital get their hands oin cheaper and easier tools, that will mean their work is worse than it is now?
[2011/06/07 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: believe me, that’s the easy bit.
[2011/06/07 16:07] Lem Skall: right, Gwyn, that brings us back to what I said: why would pros do something in SL? so we will be stuck with amateurs in SL
[2011/06/07 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: for the cost!
[2011/06/07 16:07] Scarp Godenot: We aren’t just talking about second life, when we talk machinima. Most MMO games are being used for machinima as well.
[2011/06/07 16:07] Lulu Lacrima: rotoscoping is less expensive
[2011/06/07 16:07] Scarp Godenot: Pros have already doene stuff in SL, Lem.
[2011/06/07 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: really…
[2011/06/07 16:07] Lem Skall: pros can afford the cost
[2011/06/07 16:07] Grinx Raymaker: any games are used for machinima
[2011/06/07 16:07] AlmostThere Inventor: Anyone know how to crop the outer edges off a video from Fraps?
[2011/06/07 16:07] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): No, I mean machinima. What else is actually necessary, Gwyn? You CAN render and animte yourself, but you don’t HAVE to, which is the big advantage.
[2011/06/07 16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: not in this planet 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:08] Grinx Raymaker: you can just record something and change the voices to something funny
[2011/06/07 16:08] Lulu Lacrima: rhia, you know how to make an entrance my dear 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:08] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotoscoping
[2011/06/07 16:08] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The barriers to entry are very low
[2011/06/07 16:08] Lem Skall: Scarp, again whatever was done in SL was worth only for novelty but that doesn’t last
[2011/06/07 16:08] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Rhia
[2011/06/07 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet: are we talking about “uploading a movie from you having fun in SL to YouTube” or “producing a machinima that can be shown as a TV ad”? 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:08] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Atari!
[2011/06/07 16:08] Scarp Godenot: What else is necessary for machinima is a digital post processing editor program and a good sound editor program.
[2011/06/07 16:08] Khannea Suntzu: What also would be funny is a machinima where a person is inserted in a RL scene in some sort of total virtual reality embedding rig – not exactly matrix, but like this tank – and the the person wakes up in SL. On a related question, I have been looking at MNotion capture…. Gwyn you should be able to tell me, IS IT doable, right now, to somehow stream motion capture somewhat comfotably to SL and have an avatar walk, act, nmovem gestivculate as a person is doing IRL? How much woiuld such a rig cost to develop, and to sustain? Or is it right now simply not doable to stream this yet?
[2011/06/07 16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because of course for the former you’re right; for the latter, believe me, you’re not.
[2011/06/07 16:08] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Thanks arisia!
[2011/06/07 16:08] Arisia Vita: yw
[2011/06/07 16:08] Lulu Lacrima: /me pouts at rhia
[2011/06/07 16:09] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I’m not distinguishing *quality* at all yet, Gwyn 😛
[2011/06/07 16:09] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): turn, Lulu
[2011/06/07 16:09] Lulu Lacrima: turn?
[2011/06/07 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: as well as a director, a scriptwriter, a leader of actors, post.-processing, voice acting, and so forth
[2011/06/07 16:09] Lem Skall: exactly, Gwyn, putting an ad on tv already costs lots of money so you put more money and make it look good so at least it works for the money you spent
[2011/06/07 16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet: for the professionals, the video capture is the least important aspect.
[2011/06/07 16:10] Lem Skall: and, Gwyn, it can be really cheap to make a rl movie too
[2011/06/07 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: again, that depends soooo much. You’re thinking multibillion dollar corps announcing during SuperBowl
[2011/06/07 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, you can do cheap movies in RL.
[2011/06/07 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you can do them even chepaer in SL
[2011/06/07 16:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): So what’s the topic?
[2011/06/07 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scenarios are easier
[2011/06/07 16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rhi: machinimas
[2011/06/07 16:10] Extropia DaSilva: WHAT MORE IS THERE TO MACHINIMA: Can machinima become more than merely traditional filmic narratives told via videogame technology? What potential is there for this to become an artform that simply cannot be replicated in traditional cinema?
[2011/06/07 16:10] Grinx Raymaker: how so I made a movie completely free and I borrowed a 40k dollar robot for it
[2011/06/07 16:11] Scarp Godenot: SL machinima is best compared to other types of ‘animation’ than rl shooting.
[2011/06/07 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note that I’m just defending the pro viewpoint, not the artristic one
[2011/06/07 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scarp: yes and no. In terms of *production* it’s pretty much the same as video.
[2011/06/07 16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In terms of what the watcher *experiences*, it looks like animation.
[2011/06/07 16:12] Scarp Godenot: Extie, it is important for people interested in this topic to read that Greenaway interview. Very thought provoking about the future of machinima. And the comments as well.
[2011/06/07 16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The approachesw to making a machinima in SL are exactly teh ones used in video production; whilke animation movies have quite different approaches.
[2011/06/07 16:12] Second Life: Items successfully shared.
[2011/06/07 16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (why SL always inserts so many extra characters when I type quickly is beyond me 🙂 )
[2011/06/07 16:12] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Machinima is potentially animation with a very low no barrier of entry; that’s a good thing, IMO. Expecting it to compete with professional animation and film isn’t really something I’ve really ever considered.
[2011/06/07 16:13] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): -no
[2011/06/07 16:13] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): it’s a shame Music Television is jsut in terrible shape! Otherwise we would have an almost commercial refunding playfield awailable. Right now I am questioning myself, who needs machinimas or would produce
[2011/06/07 16:13] Scarp Godenot: We will see SL machinima at film festivals within the next few years, I have no doubt about that.
[2011/06/07 16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Violet. There is a small barrier, but it’s minimal
[2011/06/07 16:14] Lulu Lacrima: okay, so if the approaches to making a machinima in sl are exactly the ones used in video production, then why not engage less expensive processes like rotoscoping rendered into avatar or likewise forms? I don’t see the issue there
[2011/06/07 16:14] Lem Skall: Scarp, we may see one or two machinimas at festivals but that is not going to be a beginning for then having machinimas at every festival, it will be just the novelty factor
[2011/06/07 16:15] Scarp Godenot: I disagree with that Lem, I think we are on the verge of a boom in machinima that is not going to go away and the graphics will get nothing but better as time goes by as will the animations.
[2011/06/07 16:15] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): South Park?
[2011/06/07 16:15] Lem Skall: Scarp, if graphica get better they will get better faster for other graphics engines
[2011/06/07 16:15] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): picture quality isn’t key factor
[2011/06/07 16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lulu, my only issue is that I don’t know any rotoscoping specialists, and how much they charge per hour; while I know lots of video frame grabbing artists (“cameramen” in SL 🙂 ) and know exactly how much they charge 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree with Luh, that is secondary.
[2011/06/07 16:16] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): you could post process your machinima making it look like pencil drafts
[2011/06/07 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh most definitely!
[2011/06/07 16:16] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): black and white even
[2011/06/07 16:16] Lulu Lacrima: okay, gwyneth, fair enough–I didn’t realize you were actively seeking collaborators
[2011/06/07 16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh. Not really, Lulu, I have already a team…. 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:16] SearbyM: it seems to me that, the issue of machinima, pro verusus amateur, is tied up with the bigger furture (or not) of SL in general. If SL takes off more and more people use it and grow it, then machiniam wil develop too
[2011/06/07 16:16] Scarp Godenot: Let’s take the example of set design. In sl you have thousands of pre made sets to work in. This alone gives a huge advantage. It is the power of group effort.
[2011/06/07 16:16] Lulu Lacrima: lol
[2011/06/07 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2011/06/07 16:17] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Exactly, Scarp!
[2011/06/07 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely, Scarp 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:17] Lem Skall: film studios have lots of pre made sets too
[2011/06/07 16:17] Grinx Raymaker: you can also make something in 3d and put it in an SL scene with after effects
[2011/06/07 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 6 billion or so items to get in SL for a few cents
[2011/06/07 16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: yes, but not at the same prices!
[2011/06/07 16:17] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think machinima will outlive SL, but right now SL is a good host of resources
[2011/06/07 16:17] Grinx Raymaker: it is quite easy to do
[2011/06/07 16:18] Lulu Lacrima: Ata, why do you think so?
[2011/06/07 16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Grinx: I agree that meshes will definitely boost machinimas — they will NOT look like SL anyn longer, and that is a huge advantage in some areas.
[2011/06/07 16:18] Scarp Godenot: We must stop thinking of Machinima as a SL phenomenon. SL is just part of this huge wave.
[2011/06/07 16:18] Khannea Suntzu: Holy shit yes meshes will start a revoluition
[2011/06/07 16:18] Lem Skall: Gwyn, I won’t go to see a movie just because it’s cheap, I’ll go to see the best movie is available and that I haven’t seen already
[2011/06/07 16:19] Lem Skall: and that best movie is not going to be machinima in SL
[2011/06/07 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Movies on theatres is just a slice of the video industry 🙂 Granted, one of the largest ones in income.
[2011/06/07 16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it’s not the *whole* market.
[2011/06/07 16:19] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): how about mixing realities? Avatars acting in front of a bluescreen, getting pasted into a RL scene
[2011/06/07 16:19] Lulu Lacrima: lem, why not the reverse of “machinima in SL” ; i.e, “SL in machinima”?
[2011/06/07 16:19] Lulu Lacrima: you dig?
[2011/06/07 16:19] Lem Skall: I don’t watch youtube because it’s free, I’d rather spend my time seeing a good movie even if I have to pay for it
[2011/06/07 16:20] Lulu Lacrima: kinda like what luisa just said
[2011/06/07 16:20] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): youtube seems to be a distribution channel for music, too
[2011/06/07 16:20] Scarp Godenot: Luh, you are bringing up a great point there. there will be mixed mediums for a lot of future work.
[2011/06/07 16:20] Lem Skall: Lulu, I am getting tired of SL, let alone of SL in machinima
[2011/06/07 16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Lem 😦
[2011/06/07 16:20] Lulu Lacrima: then why are you here? no offense ment lem
[2011/06/07 16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need someone to grumble, Lulu 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:21] Lem Skall: Lulu, I only come to SL for these Thinkers meetings, not for SL anymore
[2011/06/07 16:21] Lulu Lacrima: Lem I only enjoy thinkers as well
[2011/06/07 16:21] Lulu Lacrima: /me admits to enjoying a good sl dance venue
[2011/06/07 16:22] Extropia DaSilva: Yay! I am the last reason some people have to login.
[2011/06/07 16:22] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): lol
[2011/06/07 16:22] Scarp Godenot: one of the things Greenaway suggests as a new medium is to build an interactive piece in the virtual world that goes ‘beyond cinema’, and is experienced in real time.
[2011/06/07 16:22] Lem Skall: yes, Extie, you alone ;P
[2011/06/07 16:22] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): the local railway company invented a comic mole, he explains to travelers how long the company will need to fix trainstations and stuff
[2011/06/07 16:22] Lem Skall: Scarp, isn’t that theatre?
[2011/06/07 16:22] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I think there are parallels, yeah
[2011/06/07 16:23] Lem Skall: oh right, “cheap” theatre
[2011/06/07 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The difference is that on theatre you have to remain silent, lol
[2011/06/07 16:23] Scarp Godenot: No, Lem it is NOT theatre, because the choice of point of view and interest is made by the viewer and is not pre scripted to run linearly.
[2011/06/07 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: in SL you can watch the machinima and talk 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: “interactive video sharing”
[2011/06/07 16:23] Lem Skall: so it’s a theatre where you don’t have to sit in your seat
[2011/06/07 16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: YouTube has “near real-time interactive video sharing” via comments; SL is totally real time.
[2011/06/07 16:24] SearbyM: “beyond cincema” – that is the challenge isn’t it – is that bot what SL, and virtual worlds, and AR, offering?
[2011/06/07 16:24] Scarp Godenot: Theater runs in a Linear fashion by definition.
[2011/06/07 16:24] Lulu Lacrima: there
[2011/06/07 16:24] Lulu Lacrima: didn’t have to sit in my seat 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2011/06/07 16:24] Lem Skall: but I like just sitting in a seat and getting the perspective that the creator wants to project
[2011/06/07 16:24] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
[2011/06/07 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, now we’re discussing evolving art forms 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:25] Scarp Godenot: No one wants to take that away from you Lem, this is just going to be a new choicee of medium.
[2011/06/07 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem — old-fashioned linearist; Scarp — post-modernist 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:25] Scarp Godenot: ha ha
[2011/06/07 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem — art as a finished object; Scarp — art as process
[2011/06/07 16:25] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Can I be both?
[2011/06/07 16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me is inspired today!
[2011/06/07 16:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you are the first reason I logged on today.
[2011/06/07 16:26] Lulu Lacrima: art doesn’t equal outcome?
[2011/06/07 16:26] Scarp Godenot: I am NOT about process! shrieks back in horror
[2011/06/07 16:26] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): oh I would call it linearism and modernism … for the *isnmness
[2011/06/07 16:26] Lem Skall: well, if you would create a theatre where you can walk around then I would like that much more than a SL machinima, and btw, I bet there have been theatres like that off-Broadway
[2011/06/07 16:26] Lulu Lacrima: ata, you can be both
[2011/06/07 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem — split between author/audience; Scarp — author and audience mingle
[2011/06/07 16:26] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yes! Interactive theater is a real thing!
[2011/06/07 16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Luh: probably 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:27] Lem Skall: great, so like Violet says, that’s not even new
[2011/06/07 16:27] Scarp Godenot: What about something where your choices influence the direction of the work? This is possible with computer scripted pieces whereas it is not in cinema or theatre.
[2011/06/07 16:27] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): theater may need the split to maintain it’s illusionary power
[2011/06/07 16:27] Lulu Lacrima: how can choices not influence the direction of the work?
[2011/06/07 16:27] Lem Skall: Scarp, there are improv shows
[2011/06/07 16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My only point in making bad jokes about art is that I understand that SL by itself will not “replace” existing and established art forms, but might extend some to become slightly different than what we’re used to.
[2011/06/07 16:28] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): perhaps SL doesn’T need the split, because the scenes are more real … errr artificial … well they don’t exists, but the illusion is more far reaching
[2011/06/07 16:28] Scarp Godenot: I’m talking about the choices of the viewer not the creator Lulu
[2011/06/07 16:28] Lulu Lacrima: even still, scarp
[2011/06/07 16:28] Scarp Godenot: The viewer has no choices in viewing cinema or theatre.
[2011/06/07 16:28] Lem Skall: Gwyn, I think that art is already ahead of what is being done in SL
[2011/06/07 16:28] Lulu Lacrima: I have the choice to interpret what I view
[2011/06/07 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, maybe 🙂 I’m not questioning that!
[2011/06/07 16:29] Lulu Lacrima: and my interpretation will vary from that of others
[2011/06/07 16:29] Scarp Godenot: We are talking about content, not interpretation here Lulu
[2011/06/07 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Lulu and agrees 😉
[2011/06/07 16:29] Lem Skall: people are inventive enough to figure out ways to do things like that in rl
[2011/06/07 16:29] Lulu Lacrima: interpretation is all about content
[2011/06/07 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed!
[2011/06/07 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Content has no intrinsic interpretation; it depends on the viewer.
[2011/06/07 16:29] Lulu Lacrima: what I perceive to be content and my interpretation of it is unique
[2011/06/07 16:29] Luh (luisa.bourgoin): did machinimas reached into 3D, like cinema tries to archive (wearing these glasses)
[2011/06/07 16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have to agree with Lulu there 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:29] Scarp Godenot: This is not what I’m referring to as I don’t disagree as to one’s interpretations.
[2011/06/07 16:29] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I don’t think many people doing similar or more professional things now will consider machinima as an alternative. It’s just something different
[2011/06/07 16:30] Scarp Godenot: and it is not contradictory to what I’m referring to
[2011/06/07 16:30] Lem Skall: actually, SL is probably more limiting than rl (except the price, right)
[2011/06/07 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that makes a HUGE difference!
[2011/06/07 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course it’s “more limiting”
[2011/06/07 16:30] Scarp Godenot: Violet, we already know that REAL film makers ARE considering machinima right now.
[2011/06/07 16:30] Lem Skall: no, Gwyn, not a huge difference, maybe in what we can produce but not in what we want to see
[2011/06/07 16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But so what, if it’s soooo much cheaper ㋡
[2011/06/07 16:30] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I did say most 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:31] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Or actually I didn’t!
[2011/06/07 16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[2011/06/07 16:31] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): But I had another M-word qualifier there :p
[2011/06/07 16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ‘many’ 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:31] Lulu Lacrima: although, ata, I think that “doing something different” is an important point
[2011/06/07 16:32] Lulu Lacrima: if you don’t try or do something different then how can one make progress
[2011/06/07 16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*
[2011/06/07 16:32] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, that’s the value of it, for me…the affordability, the low barriers and the different-ness
[2011/06/07 16:32] Lulu Lacrima: /me smiles
[2011/06/07 16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For me personally, the issue right now with SL is that even after meshes, we’ll still be stuck with bad animations and no facial expressions, so Pixar won’t be out of a job 🙂
[2011/06/07 16:33] Scarp Godenot: We don’t yet fully know the parameters of this medium of virtual world machinima. But we do know that it is different than previous animation production methods. It IS a new medium.
[2011/06/07 16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*
[2011/06/07 16:33] Extropia DaSilva: OK my time is up