THINKERS MAY 31 2011: AVATARS AND THE POSTMODERN GENDER

Unnatural Magic at Thinkers

Extropia DaSilva: Welcome to Thinkers!
[2011/05/31 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: Today we are discussing…
[2011/05/31 15:32]  Unnatural Magic: mhhhh. Chocolate….
[2011/05/31 15:32]  Extropia DaSilva: AVATARS AND THE POSTMODERN GENDER: Do the avatars we embody in Second Life support or refute the postmodern view of gender?
[2011/05/31 15:32]  Jane Wingtips: smiles
[2011/05/31 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: Darn it. I was going to do some research on “the postmodern view of gender” but I forgot.
[2011/05/31 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Queen
[2011/05/31 15:33]  Khannea Suntzu: What is ‘postmodern’. And uhm what is ‘modern’. Uhmm uhhh what is ‘refute’.
[2011/05/31 15:33]  Zobeid Zuma: I”m pretty skeptical of anything post-modern, though.
[2011/05/31 15:33]  Queen Bluestar: 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:33]  ArtCrash Exonar: ummmmm just wondering, what is the postmodern view of gender?
[2011/05/31 15:33]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, you want me to give a brief spiel on postmodernism?
[2011/05/31 15:33]  Extropia DaSilva: I really should know, having set this topic. But….I hand you over to Rhi:)
[2011/05/31 15:34]  ArtCrash Exonar: postmodern can mean anything
[2011/05/31 15:34]  Khannea Suntzu: Ohh deare gods what have I done.
[2011/05/31 15:34]  Unnatural Magic: I think it ran along the lines of gender being socialy determined and distinct from sex which was biological no?
[2011/05/31 15:34]  Unnatural Magic: or rather gender refered to roles placed upon particular individuals which were in themselves determined by social concepts
[2011/05/31 15:34]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, postmodernism is the rejection of the dualisms that are part of modern society–bourgeoisie vs. proletariat, white vs black, male ves female
[2011/05/31 15:34]  Extropia DaSilva: I dunno, gender is ‘social’ by definition, I think
[2011/05/31 15:34]  Queen Bluestar: Perhaps look on ‘biological sex’….as a Hint?
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Zobeid Zuma: Postmodern philosophy. “Nothing really means anything.”
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Jane Wingtips: hmm, completely this time, or does postmodernism assume there is some part that is somhw “preprogrammed”?
[2011/05/31 15:35]  ArtCrash Exonar: WE could go on all night on definitions of the non informational term ‘post modern’.
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_feminism
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And Wasserstrom once, at a conference I attended, said that postmodern sexuality would be truly eqalitarian–you would go to a bar, and be so faciniated by the beauty of the person you are talking to you wouldn’t know whether he or she was male or female, nor would you care
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: So that couple who will not reveal the sex of their child and want the kid to choose for itself…are postmodern?
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Jane Wingtips: anything goes, as we literary people would say :)))
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Queen Bluestar: And that Hints….are the generality…..not the concretes which are ‘supposed’
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn!
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Queen Bluestar: I DON’T WANT TO GO TO A BAR
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): That’s the most coherent summary I can find; the gist is that sex (not just gender) is an artifact of language and how we refer to it.
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Extropia DaSilva: My Gwyn!
[2011/05/31 15:35]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hey Gwyn 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Lem Skall: ah, based on what Rhi said, we are nowhere near that
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Khannea Suntzu: So Rhiannon when I have these former seventh day adventist friends who keep ranting the evil of society is this pervasive postmodernism what do they actually say?
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My God!
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Lem Skall: hi Gwyn
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean… hi there lol
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Extropia DaSilva: Not quite.
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Zobeid Zuma: Hi Gwyn!
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, they are saying that the separation of God and Man is being denied by the postmodernist
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): hi Gwyn!
[2011/05/31 15:36]  ArtCrash Exonar: If some guy named Wasserman said that, he is seriously not understanding of hormonal systems
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Jane Wingtips: hmm, wehy? how about trancendency :=
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Jane Wingtips: ツ
[2011/05/31 15:36]  Lem Skall: btw, I think that post-modern is a stupid term
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Art, he thinks that we can transcend them
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Jane Wingtips: transcendence, rather
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew I’m so glad to hear that Lem 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And Marxists would say once we dissolve class, ,we can.
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Khannea Suntzu: The ‘seperaration’ is being “denied’? So in essence the modernist affirms the connection or what?
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Extropia DaSilva: Sooo anyway a few months ago a postmodernist was featured on Hamlet’s blog and he said Second Life avvies are not postmodern.
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Marcuse thought under communism we would all be polymorphously perverse
[2011/05/31 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: Why would one ‘want’ to transcend them?
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): /me glances at Khenna
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh my, art night?
[2011/05/31 15:37]  Queen Bluestar: AT THE END OF ALL THE TALKING….THE GENERAL POPULATION …HAPPILY OBLIVIOUS TO ALL WHICH IS SPOKEN ON THEIR BEHALF…..CONTINUE THEIR DRIFTING, AS MEN AND AS WOMEN.
[2011/05/31 15:37]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha ha
[2011/05/31 15:38]  Unnatural Magic: heh, well the basic sl av offers a choice of male and female 😛 so gender is fairly well defined in that sence
[2011/05/31 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Queen, could you speak up? I didn’t hear that
[2011/05/31 15:38]  Queen Bluestar: 🙂 MY USUAL EMPHASIS
[2011/05/31 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but it’s not that we would want to transcend them, Art, it’s whether SL avatars will help us do that
[2011/05/31 15:38]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And as we have a choice of gender her, I’d say yes. Just deccked out a male avi
[2011/05/31 15:38]  Unnatural Magic: on the other hand, since gender is a social construct the AVs should be irrelevant and only peoples attitudes matter as a colective no?
[2011/05/31 15:38]  Extropia DaSilva: See Ari here, Gwyn, Lem, Art, Me, Rhi. We always look the same, pretty much. If we were postmodern avvies our appearance would be much more fluid.
[2011/05/31 15:39]  Queen Bluestar: Rahter the discussin might focus on …why separate enclaves of the population….are so keen the keep decorating house…of the rest of us
[2011/05/31 15:39]  Queen Bluestar: Rather
[2011/05/31 15:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me wonders what a ‘postmodern avatar’ is anyway, and why it is subject to so many rules.
[2011/05/31 15:39]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Is this it, Extie?
[2011/05/31 15:39]  Zobeid Zuma: I think it’s become clear that the old traditional view of “men should be real two-fisted men, and women should be real two-breasted women” was too simple-minded and we’ve largely moved beyond that.
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Un, yes, that was Wasserstrom’s point–gender is a social construct and it shouldn’t matter; as to hormones, bisexuality takes care of that
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Queen Bluestar: Clearly the ONLY boundaries in SL, are the rules and regulation by prim count……….
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn, this guy on Hamlet’s blog was saying a post…Yes Violet! Good find.
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Khannea Suntzu: I am looking at the wikipedia entries for both modern and postmodern but it makes absolitely no sense to me? Are these people just talking to make noises or whwt???
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Okay, that gives a pretty good overview, then 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Unnatural, behavior might tend to look “branded” male or female. Humans act like that
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Lem Skall: two-fisted men or two-balled? women have fists too
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My thoughts exactly, Khannea.
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, citing Hamlet as a reference and an authority…
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *shakes head*
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Lem Skall: lol, Gwyn
[2011/05/31 15:40]  ArtCrash Exonar: I of course am post post modern, and therefore I am roleplaying a roleplayer who is gender neutral roleplaying a person.
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Queen Bluestar: Un natural might be fucking an animal avatar as a human
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Extropia DaSilva: No not Hamlet. THe guy Hamlet interviewed.
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Incoming text dump…
[2011/05/31 15:40]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): “Summarizing Mr. Hooker’s argument very very roughly, post-modernists believe that categories such as gender and sexual orientation are artificially imposed social constructs. So in theory, a virtual world like Second Life which allows people to play with and defy those categories should lead to wild identity experimentation. Instead, Robert notes, the overwhelming majority of SL users cling to their identities, and their avatars are typically just idealized versions of their pre-existing, pre-categorized selves.”
[2011/05/31 15:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Let me read that
[2011/05/31 15:41]  Unnatural Magic: 0.o
[2011/05/31 15:41]  Unnatural Magic: /me isnt quite sure how to take Queens comment there
[2011/05/31 15:41]  Queen Bluestar: 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:41]  Zobeid Zuma: Oooh, I like that quote. . . . “”They are incomplete because they do not cover a human’s need to form a unified, integrated identity.”
[2011/05/31 15:41]  Khannea Suntzu: I’d never consent to being a male in SL. Not even for money. Ewch.
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Queen Bluestar: I love men
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Lem Skall: I think unnatural is having sex with ANY avatar, avatars are not natural
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): abstract avatars, at least one step away from classical humanoids
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Zobeid Zuma: I like to think I’ve formed a coherent identity.
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Extropia DaSilva: I would say my late friend Lillian was postmodern because she never had the same avvie twice.
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Mr Hooker (and who would quote an authorioty with the name like that??) seems to be confusing things. Just because SL *allows* post-modern art or post-modern avatars, it doesn’t IMPOSE it upon residents and their environments. There is a huge difference!
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Queen Bluestar: Men are fine creatures….brave, sacrificing….hard working
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: there isn’t such a thing 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, but if you were postmodern, Queen, then why make a distinction between fucking an animal and a human–esp. if both are “really” human
[2011/05/31 15:42]  Lem Skall: wait, what was MODERN gender that we are now post that?
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: BUt his point was, Gwyn…there choice is there and we choose NOT to use it.
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi Tikor
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good question Lem
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: so what?
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Tikor: Heya, having connection problems
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Queen Bluestar: I read something about unnatural be havious in chat..so defined my choice of un natural
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Well, his argument seems to be that because SL allows for lots of experimentation with gender/identity, it’s surprising that most people….don’t.
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Queen Bluestar: behaviours
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Extropia DaSilva: Hey I am just the Chair. You lot have to decide ‘so what’? 😉
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Zobeid Zuma: I think his argument is that by *allowing* wild experimentation, the post-modernist would expect most people to eagerly indulge in such. That most people don’t suggests they’re missing something.
[2011/05/31 15:43]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think we need to back up a bit and realize that the frontal cortex decider of ‘self’ is only a small part of the brain and other parts of the brain control physical gender hormonal systems, which humans don’t really have a lot of control over.
[2011/05/31 15:43]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, modern gender was, well, gender
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: In most of the world, objects are kitsch, not art. About 100:1 ratio, to be optimistic…. why should SL be different, just because someone called “Hooker” says so?
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): postmodern would be genderless
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Lem Skall: does SL really allow gender experimentation? can I have a PMS in SL?
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Extropia DaSilva: yes, Lem
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, actually there are avi’s which go through menstrual cycles
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Zobeid Zuma: And yet some people do. . . I myself have gone through that phase in virtual worlds (going back way before SL) where I tried everything. Been there, done that.
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I disagree, Rhi; postmodern would be beyond gender, which is not the same as genderless 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Yeah, I was going to say, “probably” :p
[2011/05/31 15:44]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, what’s the difference?
[2011/05/31 15:45]  Lem Skall: really, would I feel the hormones working? are those RL hormones or virtual ones?
[2011/05/31 15:45]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, Lem I saw someone selling that stuff a few weeks ago… heh
[2011/05/31 15:45]  Khannea Suntzu: Then I must be modern. But then again, once in a while I do *love* futanari play. Is futanari modern or postmodern> I still don’t get that part yet.
[2011/05/31 15:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It means that you’re not stuck to definitions like ‘gender’; not that gender ceases to exist.
[2011/05/31 15:45]  Queen Bluestar: It takes something of an imagination….a Mind…to order a change in the mirror….I have found populations to be largely unimaginative…
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Lem Skall: I don’t really care about gender in SL, what does that make me?
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Totally so, Queen 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Zobeid Zuma: Well said, Queen.
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: indifferent? 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:46]  ArtCrash Exonar: There might be a difference in ‘gender identity’ and ‘gender roleplaying’. But maybe that difference is only wishful thinking……
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon we must explore as soon as possible whether or not Futanari is postmodern or modern. Report to me for a field trip as soon as possible.
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I mean in terms of modernism, pre- or post-?
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): No, I can see that, Art
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Unnatural Magic: most of what we are is role playing though no?
[2011/05/31 15:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh Art. You know, in three years I expect to publish an article about that 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:47]  Unnatural Magic: most of our behavior is acting out a particular role
[2011/05/31 15:47]  Extropia DaSilva: I know what you mean, Lem. When I rezzed I figured ‘hell, since anyone can swap between make and female at any time, gender is not an issue here. I will like who I like’.
[2011/05/31 15:47]  Tikor: Here’s a question: if it takes imagination now to play gender in SL, when will we create high enough fidelity simulations such that imagination is little required if at all?
[2011/05/31 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: I would most certainly include indifference towards sex and gender as postmodern 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: We are full of roles all the time. And they aren’t static.
[2011/05/31 15:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *in postmodernism
[2011/05/31 15:47]  Queen Bluestar: However….I woud be interested to know….how many ALSO express themselves through a variety of Alts…….an extra ‘extra’ Self
[2011/05/31 15:47]  Lem Skall: yay! I’m post modern, when do we get to be post THAT?
[2011/05/31 15:47]  ArtCrash Exonar: I have 5 alts
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I have alts, but I have trouble breathing life into them, so to speak. They’re dummies.
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Queen Bluestar: and if perhaps THERE…is your gender difference…..having establish the Self….it moves out to otherness
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Unnatural Magic: Some people find others changing gender or avatar or anything a tall really odd putting though. There is a desire for a scene of stability in some things. Clearly for for me that changes AVs constantly, but some people seem to feel that way
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I only have a fleshy alt.
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me has alts iRL too
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Queen Bluestar: but is an addition not replacement
[2011/05/31 15:48]  ArtCrash Exonar: Yes, good point Gwyn!
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Khannea Suntzu: Wow. I don’t even have alts IRL.
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve sometimes struggled a bit with that issue, Unnatural.
[2011/05/31 15:48]  Lem Skall: I don’t have a real gender irl
[2011/05/31 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: We all have alts depending on the situation. At a religious funeral service for example I put on my solemn respect for religion alt.
[2011/05/31 15:49]  Khannea Suntzu: My ex more or less divorced me when I took over my meatatar.
[2011/05/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that’s interesting, Lem, but certainly not unheard of.
[2011/05/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Art; even if we log in to the same account 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:49]  Lem Skall: Gwyn, I mean that based on how long it’s been since I’ve had sex
[2011/05/31 15:49]  Unnatural Magic: but that’s not changing you, that;s a change in role. heh.
[2011/05/31 15:49]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe let’s not discuss *that* Lem 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:49]  ArtCrash Exonar: Lem, I suggest you look down and take of your pants.
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Lem Skall: meatatar?
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Jane Wingtips: hmm, then the uestion would be whatis *you*?
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: I permit no alts. I do not see the point in alts. IT just means some other digital person is using up valuable primary time that should be devoted to ME.
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol extie 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Jane Wingtips: meatspace realization of an avatar I would thinjk?
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Lem Skall: Art, done, now what?
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Queen Bluestar: But…each of us surely….presents a distinct aspect of our Self to each person we interact with…..we do not make love to the postman…(usually)….we are many Selves….which also holds space for gender experience
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me gasps.
[2011/05/31 15:50]  Extropia DaSilva: Hello Arwen
[2011/05/31 15:50]  ArtCrash Exonar: Tell us what you see, Lem?
[2011/05/31 15:51]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, that woujld still not be postmodern, as there would still be inequalities
[2011/05/31 15:51]  Unnatural Magic: I am me, who else would i be? Who else could I be if not me?
[2011/05/31 15:51]  Queen Bluestar: and gender experience….is our communication with….Society…..our costume
[2011/05/31 15:51]  Lem Skall: oh, Art, I do have a penis but what if I don’t use it?
[2011/05/31 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: Unhnatural, ‘Me’ is different and not static at different times.
[2011/05/31 15:51]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha ha
[2011/05/31 15:51]  Zobeid Zuma: How does Second Life represent a posthuman view of gender, I wonder?
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Good question, Zo
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Lem Skall: who said anything about posthuman?
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the little I remember about postmodernism doesn’t mean that everything is stripped off concepts; just thgat one is not ‘stuck’ to them for any reason.
[2011/05/31 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would describe that as ‘male gender’ Lem, call me crazy.
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me looks at Magic expectantly
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: /me giggles thinking of the Sexy Robot video again. 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Lem Skall: Art, you’re crazy
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: Did you mean ‘postmodern’ Zo?
[2011/05/31 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/05/31 15:52]  ArtCrash Exonar: well done, Lem
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Extropia DaSilva: We all know THAT lem!
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Jane Wingtips: a bit like that margin and center thing?
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Queen Bluestar: as a virtual entity, post human is reasonable
[2011/05/31 15:52]  Zobeid Zuma: No, I meant what I wrote. 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Jane Wingtips: only now, we see that there are borders more fuzzy than we thought them to be?
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Queen Bluestar: always supposing we do not argue for avatar RIGHTS
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, very good, Jane.
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Jane Wingtips: oh well
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyneth, well, different defintions of post modern, but the idea is that the inequalities we take for granted will be gone; so I guess there can be weak and strong versions of postmodernism
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gender experimentations would fostor both; if we can be both male and female here
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Queen Bluestar: WHAT INEQUALITIES??
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Jane Wingtips: the funny thing is, most ppl seem not to like tghe idea of fuzzy borders :))
[2011/05/31 15:53]  ArtCrash Exonar: Back to Gwyn’s point of multiple RL situational ‘alts’. This is always the problem with discussing identity. There is no static identity, so defining it is difficult.
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Lem Skall: what inequalities?
[2011/05/31 15:53]  Lem Skall: what Queen said
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s the beauty of SL: by showing how everything is so fuzzy, it begs the question: is RL the same? Of course the answer is ‘yes’ but it’s far easier to see that in SL first.,
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Extropia DaSilva: OK. Well we are not posthuman. Really, we are subhuman, seeing as how lack what humans enjoy. For instance, Seren and I can share emotions but not physical sensations.
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Jane Wingtips: well, that’s one of the questions ツ *can* we really be?
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Queen, well, for instance, when attend some philosophy conferences as a male avi, I haave instant respect; have to fight to be respected as a woman
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Art,
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Jane Wingtips: menaning, do we*really* have a choice about that?
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Lem Skall: Rhi, are you naked there too?
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Ghosthuman?
[2011/05/31 15:54]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I can say “The world is flat,” as a guy; and get respecct; say “2+2=4” as a woman and get a fight
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Khannea Suntzu: /me gasps
[2011/05/31 15:55]  ArtCrash Exonar: Don’t worry Lem, she doesn’t have a gender either.
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Queen Bluestar: I am never sub human
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: I get respect and I look girly girl.
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Sometimes I’m a cat.
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Queen Bluestar: And I am definitely all girl
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, yes, as a matter of fact, so you can’t stop staring at the computer screen
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hi druth! Hi herman!
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Unnatural Magic: hmm. but isnt there a diffrence between identity and role? we play diffrent roles in diffrent situations, but we retain the same consciousness. the same potential. roles change, but we are invariable and solely aware of ourselves no?
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Druth
[2011/05/31 15:55]  Extropia DaSilva: It is OK Violet. Nobody knows you are a dog;)
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Zobeid Zuma: I’m ignored fairly often, I just assumed it was because my thoughts are too sophisticated for others to readily comprehend. 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): haha :p
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Lem Skall: I actually see an inequality, if I was naked as a male I wouldn’t get the kind of attention Rhi gets
[2011/05/31 15:56]  herman Bergson: Hi…:-)
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Herman
[2011/05/31 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: Unnatural, I would say that roles and identities are the same thing.
[2011/05/31 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: maybe not
[2011/05/31 15:56]  ArtCrash Exonar: ha ha
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unnatural: after years of thinking on exactly that point, I reached the conclusion that there is no difference between ‘role’ and ‘identity’.
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: like Art lol
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Unnatural Magic: Lem, I could jump to one of my male AVs that wears scant clothing and I can bet i would get some attention 😉
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Queen Bluestar: if you were naked as a male you would be arresteed…it is equality for one only
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, you type faster!
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Extropia DaSilva: hey Herman
[2011/05/31 15:56]  Queen Bluestar: women may strip, men must not…..in mixed company
[2011/05/31 15:57]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): the classical form of attention for naked noobs
[2011/05/31 15:57]  herman Bergson: Hi.. 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: An example from biology: where is the difference between one species and the other, and phenotypical variations inside the same species? Even Darwin was ware that thgere wasn’t really a difference
[2011/05/31 15:57]  Queen Bluestar: I would invite any male here to strip if he chose to
[2011/05/31 15:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol from postmodernism to male stripping… we’re improving 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:57]  Jane Wingtips: lol
[2011/05/31 15:57]  ArtCrash Exonar: The species definition is clear, can you reproduce with offspring that are capable of reproducing.
[2011/05/31 15:57]  Tikor: SSome believe the actor becomes the role if he wears the face too long.
[2011/05/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, but are your offspring the same species?
[2011/05/31 15:58]  Unnatural Magic: What? since when? the more men that strip off the better 😄 shed the shackles of your oppressive garments! apart from those that provide comfort and support
[2011/05/31 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: if they can reproduce they are, Gwyn.
[2011/05/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Darwin said “not really, except for the convenience of the discussion”
[2011/05/31 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: not ture!!!
[2011/05/31 15:58]  ArtCrash Exonar: true
[2011/05/31 15:58]  Queen Bluestar: interesting mens pictures can be naked but they cannot show an erection or that is offensive…I would have thought no erection was the fault
[2011/05/31 15:58]  Extropia DaSilva: Species is an illusion brought on by gaps in the fossil record, Gwyn. If we had a COMPLETE fossil record we would not have species, because it would be impossible to determine where one ends and another begins. The transitions are too gradual, you see.
[2011/05/31 15:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shell I quote you from page & edition, Art? 🙂
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, extie.
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The same applies to ‘role’ and ‘identity’
[2011/05/31 15:59]  ArtCrash Exonar: Species is not an illusion, it is a simple defininition that is testable.
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Queen Bluestar: but….species are diferentiated in real time…I am NOT an elephant….
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Zobeid Zuma: Oh I remember in geology class trying to classify fossil shells by species. THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME!!
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Queen Bluestar: not in historic time
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We just conveniently label ‘identity’ as something more stable than ‘role’, but it’s not.
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): What if someone’s identity is at odds with their role?
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Extropia DaSilva: Now I know that you know and you know that I know that you know that you know. I love higer order intentionality!
[2011/05/31 15:59]  Queen Bluestar: By our differences are WE…known
[2011/05/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art, read your Darwin *carefully* 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:00]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Identity has a component of autonomy, or at least me-ness, but roles are often socially imposed
[2011/05/31 16:00]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): So they can overlap; and they can conflict, too
[2011/05/31 16:00]  ArtCrash Exonar: Darwin is NOT the decider of the definition of a species btw.
[2011/05/31 16:00]  Queen Bluestar: gods certainly are not
[2011/05/31 16:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, but he’s a good authority in thios context 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:00]  Unnatural Magic: Hmm. there is something consistant about me as I am now that was there when I was me 20 years ago no? my role has changed, but that aspect of me remains. there is something consistant. many others can take on the same role, but they are not me
[2011/05/31 16:00]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There are different reactions to male and female nudity, but in postmodernism there wouldn’t be. It jusg goes to show that SL doesn’t really fostor postmodernism after all; just makes it more possible
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Extropia DaSilva: Gwyn imposed Thinkers on me. So this part of my identity was forged by her.
[2011/05/31 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: A lot has been discovered since Darwin let me remind you.
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh. Are we drifting back into discussions about self again? 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gender role *is* gender identity, Gwyn
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): a possibility not a requirement
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Rhi; no difference there either
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Not really, Rhia
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: and nothing found so far has contradicted his original assumptions 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:01]  ArtCrash Exonar: I want to dis post modernism again! ha ha ha
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Khannea Suntzu: *wraps arms around head* killlmeeekillmeeekillmeeee
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyway, we’re not dicussing Darwin…
[2011/05/31 16:01]  Queen Bluestar: Societ NEEDS roles…to survive and thrive…..steal that away and what have we? a primative soup?
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Lem Skall: Darwin is pre modern
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): still stumbling over “postmodern”
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree fully with Queen.
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Tikor: Unnatural – Any differential equation can appear consistent simply because it doesn’t happen to stray from it’s initial conditions. Is that true consistency or simply a non-dynamic set of initial conditions?
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Postmodernism is non.-functional unless done properly
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Khannea Suntzu: ミ★ Do me !!★彡
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Lem Skall: let’s replace post modern with “hip and cool”
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: right!
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me doesn’t think you can separate humans from culture, anyway
[2011/05/31 16:02]  ArtCrash Exonar: Luh, postmodern is a term used in so many different contexts as to be a content free phrase…. heh
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: good point, Art 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Jane Wingtips: yes lem 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:02]  Extropia DaSilva: So anyway…if postmodernism denies gender, I guess we have to ask if SL denies it also? Seeing as how we choose ‘male’ or ‘female’ at the start of your journey through SL…I guess the answer is ‘no’?
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Violet: I don’t think so, either.
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Queen Bluestar: its the addtion of the s…..Human is …Humans are
[2011/05/31 16:03]  druth Vlodovic: “freedom to choose roles” or to define them
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, well, that’s were Marx was right that there has to be the right social conditions–right now with male dominance, any difference in the sexes is going to reflet inequality; with sexual and economic equalitarianism, that would not be the ccase
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Jane Wingtips: that’s just because we start out by adhering to some widely held concept
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Queen Bluestar: Society is ‘cultivated’…through common cultural language
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, postmodernism just denies gender to some definitions; as said, when I studied it, postmodernism was NOT about ‘denying’ anything except the need to be stuck to conventions. It didn’t abolish them, just the need to stgick to them.
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Jane Wingtips: or rather, god given lol
[2011/05/31 16:03]  Tikor: SL does not confirm or deny gender innately, it offers you choices to affirm one or the other or neither.
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: I’m really confused (>_<)
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Jane Wingtips: god being the lindens of course
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Lem Skall: wait, when did we choose a gender in SL, I don’t see it even in the profile
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Zobeid Zuma: I think the main point of the article is that SL gives us the ability to experiment with gender in a way that isn’t possible in RL. And yet most people don’t. Why are they unwilling or uninterested?
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Rhi 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem: we used to do that 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, your very first say; you get to pick an avi name and an avatar
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Unnatural Magic: yes, there is a gender choice in your shape. you have to pick either male or female when you make a shape or edit one
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): Lem, not inside profile but shapes are gendered
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): *day
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: Your avatar is either male or female, Lem.
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): The way we use SL suggests that most people aren’t comfortable playing with gender roles; which I think is the real point
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Extropia DaSilva: At the start.
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Queen Bluestar: Most people? Or those without alts…how do ‘we’ know for certain….what is experimental
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zo: because that’s how it is in 99.99% OF EVERYTHING in RL; why should poeople in SL be different?
[2011/05/31 16:04]  druth Vlodovic: “dominence” is often situational, there are many aspect of society which favour females, or males
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Lem Skall: the name and avatar doesn’t mean anyting
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, at the start; there are hermaphrodites
[2011/05/31 16:04]  Khannea Suntzu: /me sees Freud stare at her and is certain she has gone insane for real now.
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Jane Wingtips: unused to the idea perhaps, it’s the rubber mask thing all over again I guess
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Unnatural Magic: once you have made that choice you can add whatever you like. penis, vagina, ovipositor
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: It also looked like a penis!
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Zobeid Zuma: SL avs represent the entire gamut of possible genders. . .
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Lem Skall: name can be gender neutral and I can change the avatar anytime
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: true hermaphrodites are extremely rare; even the handful of documented cases are frowned upon
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Extropia DaSilva: Really Rhi? I remember having to select eitther a male or a female body shape.
[2011/05/31 16:05]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhm actually Gwynn…
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, yes, and that would make for a transwcendence of gender
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, I just said that, didn’t I?
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, at first, yes.
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Queen Bluestar: My day…is ienacted without awareness of female bits….in general
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Unnatural Magic: Hmm. arent slugs hermaphrodites? and worms. or were you just refering to the human / mammal branch of things
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But then you can change; I could attach a penis to myself, for instnace
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Lem Skall: am I changing my gender in SL if I just change to a female av?
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh — sorry, I was thinking about humans, Unnatural 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Jane Wingtips: nope lem
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Queen Bluestar: Can;t keep me away from the gown stores….
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Zobeid Zuma: We have supermodels by the busload (teetering around on freakishly stork-like legs). . . exaggerated features. . . androgynous characters. . . completely non-human characters. . .
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Lem Skall: Jane, exactly
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Extropia DaSilva: If you want to look like Unnatural here you have to put prims on attachment points. This was deliberate. The Lindens wanted people to know ‘that weird looking guy is human underneath just like me’.
[2011/05/31 16:06]  Jane Wingtips: I wouldn’t think you do
[2011/05/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: do you think so., Extie? hehe
[2011/05/31 16:07]  ArtCrash Exonar: There is a great book on the subject of just how much people choose versus how much of oneself is genetically programmed. http://www.amazon.com/Dependent-Gene-Fallacy-Nature-Nurture/dp/0805072802
[2011/05/31 16:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don’t think that the Lindens are so profound and wise as that.,…
[2011/05/31 16:07]  Unnatural Magic: ahh no worries. yes, to the best of my knowledge there are not really confirmed cases of hermaphrodites in humans. one set of their genitalia are usually dysfunctional
[2011/05/31 16:07]  Queen Bluestar: Super models are largely dressed by gays…aren’t they? So ..boyish ..woud be their notion of attractive
[2011/05/31 16:07]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, one inequality to back up the guys–I recenttly activated a male avatar; it is hard to shop for hi, and on the Marketplacce, they had lots of female skins even when I was looking for male ones; on the same page
[2011/05/31 16:07]  Extropia DaSilva: I know so! A Linden told me! Well…told Hamlet and I read the quote in his book.
[2011/05/31 16:07]  Lem Skall: Rhi, if you changeinto a male av right now, do you think that you will become male to anyone here?
[2011/05/31 16:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hear, hear, Queen! I want supermodels dressed by transfeminist women!)
[2011/05/31 16:08]  Luh (luisa.bourgoin): would love to meet the 1st non-human avatar. something artificial, like an advanced camper bot that mutated
[2011/05/31 16:08]  ArtCrash Exonar: I’ll have to admit, I made my avatar to look both attractive and real.
[2011/05/31 16:08]  Arwen LeMay: I think so – I take people here as they appear to be as I am addressing them, Its part of the fun.
[2011/05/31 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, not here, as peopole will know it’s me
[2011/05/31 16:08]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, not here because you’re all cool;
[2011/05/31 16:08]  Unnatural Magic: both attractive and real are subjective no? 😄
[2011/05/31 16:09]  Lem Skall: Rhi, then the avatar doesn’t mean gender
[2011/05/31 16:09]  Jane Wingtips: hm but what is that me?
[2011/05/31 16:09]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I went to thothica as a male and was given a lot more respect, even though they knew I was really a girl
[2011/05/31 16:09]  Extropia DaSilva: I think you are beautiful, Art. And not in a boringly predictable way like I am.
[2011/05/31 16:09]  Tikor: Art – attractive and real are desirable traits many avatars seek to be
[2011/05/31 16:09]  Arwen LeMay: I can switch attitudes in 3 seconds, the time it takes to re-rez
[2011/05/31 16:09]  Zobeid Zuma: But not all, Tikor. Just look around the circle here. 😛
[2011/05/31 16:09]  ArtCrash Exonar: very subjective Unnatural, but I didn’t stray from human ideals, and therefore ignored the huge possibilites out there that are ‘outside of the box’.
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Tikor: many but not all, I ill aree
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Jane Wingtips: some configuration of primes in here or some fleshly bits rl? I don’t think that s all 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I like to see deliberately grotesque avis, but rarely find talking to the people behind them worthwhile
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Queen Bluestar: Taller people get respect in rl
[2011/05/31 16:10]  ArtCrash Exonar: I think attractive avatars help in social interactions actually.
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Arwen LeMay: switch my attitude to another, as he/she changes, I mean
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Queen Bluestar: smaller people get overlooked often
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Unnatural Magic: Well a basicly human form is forced on us here. we all have to work within the limitations of the basic av form which has 2 arms and 2 legs and one head
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Queen, yes they do, and heightism will go in postmodern society too
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To be honest, postmodernism will die as soon as it loses all touch with conbventionalism, and thus becomes universally rejected because it fails to engage in communication 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Lem Skall: lol, Queen, really
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I went to one group as a raven, and they ignored me, even though they knew it was me.
[2011/05/31 16:10]  Extropia DaSilva: They get respect in VR too. Yes, I know all about that Nick Yee study!
[2011/05/31 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Some smaller people get tripped over, Queen! heh
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ravens don’t have much to contribute I think the prejudice was
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Queen Bluestar: :))
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Khannea Suntzu: Being persecuted and held in contempt wouyld becone a fetish for me if it would come *after* me having big tits.
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me notices that Rhi has some need of ‘being noticed’. Hmm.
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Hey, as a geometrical shape, I got sat on a lot; or they tgried
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Extropia DaSilva: Did you shout NEVERMORE?
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Caw!
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, I come to groups to participate; if I’m ignoredd, how can I participate
[2011/05/31 16:11]  ArtCrash Exonar: Have you ever been around the super tinies? YOu have to be very careful there….
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Jane Wingtips: I knew you’d ask that extopia :-))
[2011/05/31 16:11]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, no I got fed up first and left. lol
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Rhi, that is indeed the trick 🙂 I was just pointing out a recurrent complaint.
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: I know my Poe you know.
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Khannea Suntzu: Caw Caw!
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Arwen LeMay: I have a point I would like to make about my SL experiences affecting my attitudes toinequality in RL, if that would be of interest at some point ?
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Extropia DaSilva: Please do!
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Jane Wingtips: gg
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please go ahead, Arwen!
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): I’d like to hear it, Arwen 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Arwen LeMay: I have an unusual viewpoint, which, strangely, SL is reinforcing. Arwen has a sister in SL, an alt. Her wardrobe is 10 times mine, she has AO’s, she has gadgets, dances, the lot. She gets all the outings, the sexual encounters etc etc. I get very little. Total inequality and unfairness. But, you see, I (Arwen) dont mind. She is my alt. Deep down I know she is also me. Now. Increasingly, I begin to see RL the same way. I look at others enjoying advantages, and I feel no envy, but pleasure. I growingly see that they are just my alts. At rock bottom, they are all me. So Unfairness and inequality concern me less and less every day. I suppose this is a religious viewpoint, but out of the context of any organised religion. How does it strike you , anyone, is there a SL/RL parallel here ? And as for gender, I see it as merely part of the fun, inequalities or no. Fighting them is fun too.
[2011/05/31 16:12]  Queen Bluestar: I woud like to see….Marriage ..disolove naturally as an institution when the last child left home…..that would leave an empty space in the ages of man..to contemplate, ownershio of resources and rights, and living as one
[2011/05/31 16:13]  Khannea Suntzu: What a whore. I’d dump her.
[2011/05/31 16:13]  Queen Bluestar: long nails on keyboard = typos
[2011/05/31 16:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arwen, what you’ve described is Buddhism in a nutshell (and no, Buddhism is not a religion, organised or not 😉 )
[2011/05/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I’m very glad you figured that out on your own, and very happy for you, because, you know, you’re seeing things as they really are… and they are just as you described them.
[2011/05/31 16:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hear hear Queen… lol <– same problem here)
[2011/05/31 16:14]  Arwen LeMay: 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:14]  ArtCrash Exonar: Maybe Buddhist philosophy is not a religion, but just go to Tibet and then tell me it isn’t a religion.
[2011/05/31 16:14]  Queen Bluestar: I put mine on and off for fun…..there is no ‘depth’ to my experiencing….I simply enjoy..the peace and quiet of being something…
[2011/05/31 16:14]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Buddhism and advaita, yes; being unable to see separation between anything
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Art: you can make religions out of everything :_P
[2011/05/31 16:15]  druth Vlodovic: just add politics
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Queen Bluestar: I love shopping….my prime reason for SLign
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Queen Bluestar: ing
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I didn’t see arwen’s text. What did she say? I want to hear it too.
[2011/05/31 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: just scroll up Rhiannon
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, and you can make politics out of everything, too, druth 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Unnatural Magic: I am tempted to ask why Buddhism should not be considered a religion but that would probably be off topic
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Scroll up. I missed it at first, too
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Tikor: I disagree, below a certain floor of existence an intollerance of inequality is a good thing. Also if those enjoying the advantages do so at the expense of a common resource, such as the environment.
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I did, Art; didn’t see it
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Extropia DaSilva: She said we are all her alts. In RL and SL.
[2011/05/31 16:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unnatural: quite, but I’m happy to stay around afterwards 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:15]  ArtCrash Exonar: 16:12
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Queen Bluestar: Buddism? well….belief systems are cool things to beat up on
[2011/05/31 16:16]  herman Bergson: the answer is simple…buddhism has no god in store
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is no belief in Buddhism 😛
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Jane Wingtips: rather wouldn’t we be all everyone else’s alts?
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Queen Bluestar: I would BAN the word believe if I were in abslute power
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or a few millions, herman 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Queen 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:16]  herman Bergson: To believe something doesnt make you religious….
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Khannea Suntzu: I sometime suspect that out there in SL for some, SL has become a training ground for bisexuality. I even suspect *whispers really softly here* there may be males out there that *whispers really softle* mumblemumblemumble training ground for new kinds of behavior that would upset society.
[2011/05/31 16:16]  ArtCrash Exonar: Anyone who takes money in the name of philosophy is a religion.
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): At least I didn’t see anything after her saying she had something to say, and nothing that resembled Buddhism.
[2011/05/31 16:16]  Tikor: The Bayeseans would be mad at you, Queen
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Extropia DaSilva: BTW Unnatural here just IMed me to ask if it is OK if he changes into a nude guy. I trust nobody is bothered if he does?
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Khannea: not only bisexuality, but to a whole range of different gender & sexual expressions.
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Arwen LeMay: IM, Rhi
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh yes
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Queen Bluestar: Good….that would make them more alive….
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Zobeid Zuma: /me isn’t shocked by much of anything anymore.
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Queen Bluestar: Someone elses anger….rarely moves me
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Lem Skall: lol, training ground for bisexuality? you mean you can get better at that? can I train for heterosexuality?
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The great thing about postmodernism is that nothing shocks us 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Jane Wingtips: ouchies lol
[2011/05/31 16:17]  Queen Bluestar: shame
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lem, I don’0t know, but I think that Khannea has a point there.
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes Lem, I give certified seminars. You can book me.
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Jane Wingtips: yay that’s what I say all the time
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Lem, the whole culture trains you for heterosexuality
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly!
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but SL doesn’t.
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Girls are trained to attract boys; it’s male standards of beauty imposed on us
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods*
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Queen Bluestar: of course the saving factor is that typically, follow on generation have to learn things all over again for themselves….so ‘we’ here will be extinct to them
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Extropia DaSilva: NO it is not.
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): /me would sort of like to see that standard reversed some day
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2011/05/31 16:18]  Zobeid Zuma: Interesting story. . . When I was running my little Tea Party organization, we had a meeting. . . and I think Rhi was there. . .
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Queen Bluestar: nd shocks MAY RETURN!! woooooo
[2011/05/31 16:19]  ArtCrash Exonar: So Rhiannon, if female beauty is a male imposed standard what is YOUR standard of female beauty?
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: let’s hear why not, Extie ㋡
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Jane Wingtips: and ppl look at me as though I’m crazy….. which I might be lol at least bby their standards
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Lem Skall: let’s say maybe conditioned, but trained?
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: iRL I would use the word ‘trained’ as well.
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Extropia DaSilva: What makes men and women attractive is for good biological reasons.
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Khannea Suntzu: IN FACT when I visited this LGBT conference in the US I held a presentation about this, just in case anyone missed it.
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: And another female av popped in. . . and then quickly popped out. . . and sent me an angry IM. She was shocked — SHOCKED — that we had nudity in our meeting.
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Much more than merely conditioned.
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Tikor: But what if we’ve already seen the last generation to die?
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: no waaaay really Zo?
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Zobeid Zuma: “I have my kid here in the room!”
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[2011/05/31 16:19]  Lem Skall: I must have missed THAT LGBT conference, I’ve been to all the other ones
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Queen Bluestar: masculinity…if NOT drawn out by female preference…makes for dull boys
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Khannea Suntzu: Yes Zobeid. I discussed anal sex there and how nice it is.
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Zobeid Zuma: And I’m like. . . You let your kid look into SL? ARE YOU NUTS, DON’T YOU KNOW WHAT THIS PLACE IS LIKE??? 😛
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So did her kid realise that under his clothes he’s actually nude too? 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): hehe
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Extropia DaSilva: The idea that sex symbols are only sex symbols be cause society dictates what is sexy and some lard ass could be sexy if society deemed it so is rubbish. What is sexy is biological markers of reproductive fitness and good genes.
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I remember that, Zoe
[2011/05/31 16:20]  druth Vlodovic: funny how for a long time in RL I felt as though my clothes were part of me,
[2011/05/31 16:20]  ArtCrash Exonar: BTW, just sayin’: you don’t have to encounter SL sex if you don’t want to….
[2011/05/31 16:20]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, the kid probably knew it, Gwyn, it’s a mom thing to be shocked by the whole thing
[2011/05/31 16:21]  druth Vlodovic: so being naked made me different all through
[2011/05/31 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Rhi. I have no children, so I haven’t got that experience 😛
[2011/05/31 16:21]  Jane Wingtips: brb
[2011/05/31 16:21]  Lem Skall: if some male grows in the woods and then joins society, does he need to learn about being heterosexual?
[2011/05/31 16:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extie: yes and no. Because the needs of society also change… 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:21]  Extropia DaSilva: Not have sex? I did not aquire this body and this attitude so as to be celibate!
[2011/05/31 16:21]  ArtCrash Exonar: I would say no Lem.
[2011/05/31 16:21]  Unnatural Magic: heh people find things to object to. there is a regular problem at one particular group I attend where new arivals start complaining bitterly and demanding that either the long term contributing members that are openly furry go, or they, the brand new and aggressively intolerant of those with differences they dislike are going to go and never return
[2011/05/31 16:21]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s the Mom hormone; you also forget all the mischief you did as a kid once you become a mom. At least I have a lot of friends like that
[2011/05/31 16:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say that he will have an urge to be heterosexual in 80% of the cases, but he wouldnt know how to act like one
[2011/05/31 16:22]  ArtCrash Exonar: A LOT of sexual cues are hardwired in human brains.
[2011/05/31 16:22]  Extropia DaSilva: How can you be anything BUT openly furry?
[2011/05/31 16:22]  Zobeid Zuma: That’s funny, Unnatural.
[2011/05/31 16:22]  Unnatural Magic: people do really, really daft things I cant even begin to understand
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Extropia DaSilva: YOu wear a furry avvie you ARE furry. Not? You are not.
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Zobeid Zuma: I’ve got to admit though, that I didn’t find my favorite sandbox as pleasant after the fatfur pokemorphs moved in. *shudder*
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: Shave?
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Queen Bluestar: don’t ‘we’…produce gender as a response? if so the stage is already determined
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Unnatural Magic: Dont get me started on that Extopia. I remain furry regardless of my AV
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Lem Skall: ok, but would he choose his sexuality based on what gender of human he encounters first? I don’t think so, so sexuality is not conditioned
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Queen Bluestar: and our burden less
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Extie, but people treat you like you are a furry; people treat you like you are your avatar
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: “I am ashamed opf my furry-ness, so I shave”
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Khannea Suntzu: HOLY SHIT THATS HIORRIBLE
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): A bald furry; now, that would be bizaare
[2011/05/31 16:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sexuality is not gender, Lem, so, I would agree with you
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: In the animal kingdom bisexuality is the norm I think, Lem.
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Zobeid Zuma: Anthropomorphic sphinx cat?
[2011/05/31 16:24]  ArtCrash Exonar: It is pretty clear that sexual attraction is a hard wired thing.
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Unnatural Magic: unless you are a whip tailed lizard
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Unnatural Magic: in which case lesbian is the only option
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Extropia DaSilva: Good option;)
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Unnatural Magic: or a worm, or slug
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Unnatural Magic: or any monogendered species
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Khannea Suntzu: It takes the hirsute out of the bear, zobeid 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think so, too, Art. I haven’t seen any study contradicting that assumption, and I have read quite a lot….
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Lem Skall: not the norm, no, in the animal kingdom sexuality is not what it is in humans, animals don’t hold hands and french kiss
[2011/05/31 16:24]  Unnatural Magic: or a species that doesnt engage in sex at all
[2011/05/31 16:25]  Zobeid Zuma: SL definitely has evolved some social conventions that are. . . unique to it.
[2011/05/31 16:25]  Unnatural Magic: Lem, if I can find it, there is an intresting picture of a pair of gorillas…
[2011/05/31 16:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: that’s why I defend that SL has its own culture, Zo 🙂 It’s not merely a ‘copy’ of RL.
[2011/05/31 16:25]  Extropia DaSilva: Like what, Zoe?
[2011/05/31 16:25]  ArtCrash Exonar: I know many Gay men and Lesbain Women, and all of them say that their attractions come from as early as they could remember.
[2011/05/31 16:25]  Khannea Suntzu: Hey look “An Existential Sandbox Full of TOYS”
[2011/05/31 16:26]  Lem Skall: unnatural, that is not sexuality in the same sense as for humans, they use copulation only as domination
[2011/05/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: /me *nods* @ Art. That is consitent with all research I’ve read about.
[2011/05/31 16:26]  Unnatural Magic: I think 2 years old is the typical time where strong indicators of future sexuality begin to become clear
[2011/05/31 16:26]  druth Vlodovic: sex can be part of affection, but it is not necessary to have affection to have sex, human o many animals
[2011/05/31 16:26]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): 2 or 3, yeah.
[2011/05/31 16:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thankfully so, druth 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:27]  Lem Skall: in the animal kingdom, a male mounts another male only to dominate
[2011/05/31 16:27]  Unnatural Magic: ummm… sight your example Lem?
[2011/05/31 16:27]  Queen Bluestar: or to reach something from the top shelf
[2011/05/31 16:27]  Queen Bluestar: eheh
[2011/05/31 16:27]  Unnatural Magic: do you have a source on that statement?
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm. Really, Lem? I’m sure I have read cases where that is not the casem even among primates.
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Extropia DaSilva: Bonobo society is Matriarchal. Woe betide males that get out of line. The girls hold him down and administer a painful bite. To the testicle!
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, I’d like a source to that too.,..
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Lem Skall: no, do you have a source on yours? have yo uinterviewed any animals on that?
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Tikor: Lem, I thought dolphins had male-on-male encounters that weren’t domination displays? I think they also have rape.
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Unnatural Magic: Actualy, heck, isnt it baboons that screw the living daylights out of eachother daily? regardless of gender or rank within the troop?
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Khannea Suntzu: …to the gonads. Chimpansee teeth…
[2011/05/31 16:28]  Unnatural Magic: any souce on my what?
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Arwen LeMay: So little evolution has occurred in our bodies, emotions, desires and feelings since the stone age. Most of these things are the way they are simply to increase survival of our genes in that environment, both as individuals and groups. See or feel a weird urge? Cherchez le survival-value, lol. You can at least be sure it won’t be anti-survival.
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dolphins have mostly threesomes; it’s hard to have sex in water when you’re a mammal and there is nothing to push against 🙂
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Dolphins are like humans in that they have a pretty broad sexuality
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Extropia DaSilva: Two minutes left folks! So let is have them closing statements…DOES SL tally with what postmodernism says about gender or not?
[2011/05/31 16:29]  ArtCrash Exonar: So back to the original issue: Do SL avatars support or refute the idea of gender flexibility? I would say it supports that idea, but only in a roleplaying way. It does not support the idea of flexible sexual attraction.
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Queen Bluestar: I think it must be very tedious for Human males……joined to one woman and often left without sex for a large number of years because she is not interested….
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: EEWK IEEEL IEK KA KWA KWA
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Gwyn, yes, even Pamala Clift had to admit that immersives adapt to the specific culture of SL, and are willing to acccept dragons, sapient spiders, and so on, even though that would never happen in RL
[2011/05/31 16:29]  Khannea Suntzu: Ik speak pretty good dolphin actually
[2011/05/31 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL *allows* postmodern gender to be expressed, but tyhat is quite different than *imposing* a postmodern view on gender.
[2011/05/31 16:30]  Unnatural Magic: but, gender being socialy defined…. isnt it independant of anything that isnt social in nature?
[2011/05/31 16:30]  Tikor: Not – it allows the choice of gender, and that choice has meaning for most residents
[2011/05/31 16:30]  Arwen LeMay: Sexual activity that is not directly reproductive will exist because it enhances group survival, surely ?
[2011/05/31 16:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: good questioon, Unnatural! I would agree!
[2011/05/31 16:31]  Extropia DaSilva: OK MY TIME IS UP!
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2 Responses to THINKERS MAY 31 2011: AVATARS AND THE POSTMODERN GENDER

  1. Arch says:

    Laughter is timeless..imagination has no age…and dreams are forever.
    The real source of wealth and capital …is not material things…it is the human mind…the human spirit…the human imagination…our faith in the future.
    I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free.
    What is now proved was once imagined.

  2. Pingback: THINKERS MAY 31 2011: AVATARS AND THE POSTMODERN GENDER (via Mind Child’s musings) | Business, Technology and the Future

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